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Boeing NewGen Tanker

Northrop Grumman/EADS KC-45A tanker
Tanker saga will never end

The saga of finding a replacement for the tanker aircraft in the U.S. Air Force fleet will seemingly never end. The process has been marred with allegations of favoritism and plenty of politic posturing from the beginning.

Northrop Grumman/EADs originally won the contract only to have that win overturned after Boeing protested. The RFP was rewritten after the Northrop win was overturned with the new RFP being released in February. Northrop and EADS were not happy with the new RFP stating that it clearly favored the smaller Boeing aircraft.

While Boeing was happy with the new RFP and unveiled its NewGen aircraft that it would be submitting for the bidding process, Northrop Grumman threatened to pull out of the entire bidding process if the RFP wasn't rewritten again. The Pentagon declined to rewrite the RFP and in March, Northrop announced that it was pulling out of the process making good on its threat. EADS said in late March that it was considering bidding on the tanker contract without Northrop and was looking for an American company to collaborate with.

The DoD has caught a lot of flack over its willingness to continue the process with only one bidder for the contract. A new wrinkle in the saga unfolded yesterday when the DoD announced that it would let the deadline for bids be extended for an additional 60 days if EADS would bid according to DoD spokesman Geoff Morell.

Morel stated that the DoD was willing to compromise on the evaluation process in order to meet the planned early fall award date for the final tanker contract. The DoD spokesman states that the selection process for an aircraft would be fair without politics being part of the selection process.

Northrop is still out as an EADS partner because the RFP favors the smaller Boeing offering. However, EADS -- the parent company of Airbus -- has stated that it "will consider" bidding on the contract with the 60-day extension. However, EADS has indicated that it will take 90 days to put together a bid reports 
Defense News.

Senator Richard Shelby issued a statement saying, "The Department of Defense made the right decision today in extending the deadline for bids on a new aerial refueling tanker. A sole-sourced contract would have served only Boeing's interests. The presence of a competitor better serves the interest of our war fighters and American taxpayers. It is my hope that EADS will be able to offer a competitive bid, despite the fact that the RFP has been skewed toward Boeing from the beginning."

However, Senator Patty Murray came down on the opposite side form Shelby and issued her own statement saying, "This is completely unacceptable. This extension means that we are once again bending the rules for a company that has refused to play by them. Holding the door open to an illegally-subsidized foreign company is the wrong move for our men and women in uniform, our workers, and our economy. Airbus has had ample time to compete for this contract and put forth a bid. A sixty-day extension is simply another Airbus delay tactic that comes at the expense of our workers and our service members."



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Is it just me...
By Hieyeck on 4/1/2010 9:16:55 AM , Rating: 5
LET IT END. IT'S A BIG PLANE WITH A HUGE GAS TANK.

If only other defense contracts were looked at with such balance and scrutiny, maybe the F35 would be in production and hummers would get updates to actually PROTECT the troops.

(FYI, I'm no fan of war, but I'm 110% for the soldiers - they're the ones with more cajones than us commentards by actually volunteering to defend their nation with their lives)




RE: Is it just me...
By bigdawg1988 on 4/1/2010 9:29:37 AM , Rating: 3
I agree. Besides, did they really think EADS would come up with a new plane in 60 days? No wonder the cost overruns for these projects are so high. How good a design can you come up with in 60 days?
If I was EADS I would come up with some fantastic concept that is about the price of the competitor, then after I won the contract I'd end up tripling the actual cost due to "unforseen technical difficulties."
Someone in the bidding office needs to retire!


RE: Is it just me...
By lightfoot on 4/1/2010 3:00:10 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
How good a design can you come up with in 60 days?

After finishing a bottle of wine in a cafe in France, I came up with an f-ing brilliant design for a tanker. It only took an afternoon and several napkins. I would have submitted it as a bid on the tanker project, but the bidding process clearly favored Boeing. Unable to get the government to change their requirements, I was forced to drop out of the bidding process.


RE: Is it just me...
By Keeir on 4/1/2010 4:15:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
How good a design can you come up with in 60 days?


1.) A completely clean sheet design (or even one based on a A320 or A340) is completely out of the question. Development costs will be so high over ~180 planes

2.) If you listen to EADS, the A330 Multi-Role Tanker being delievered is already a better tanker than anything Boeing could deliever....

3.) One of the primary reasons NG walked away was due to the "Fixed" Price nature of the end contract. People aren't going to be able to do what you suggest and make a bundle.


RE: Is it just me...
By Wulf145 on 4/2/2010 1:51:30 AM , Rating: 2
It does not matter what type of bid EADS puts togeather, they have about as much chance of winning as I have with some doodles of Tanker Aircraft, basicaly none at all.

Does anyone here realy believe that this contract is going to anyone but Boeing?


RE: Is it just me...
By WoWCow on 4/1/2010 9:51:11 AM , Rating: 2
I do kind of wonder what the USAF is looking for.

As you said, isn't a fuel tanker just a big (hopefully efficient) gas tank in the air of which its sole objective is to refuel units in the air?

In that sense, all they needed to add was safety protocols, navigation, and computing devices in addition to the main equipment needed for its objective. Like the missile intercepting laser beam they've mounted on a Boeing a while back.

In any case, they gotta have some contingencies installed on to the bidding contract; those overruns are terrible burdens to the feds and the taxpayers.


RE: Is it just me...
By Shig on 4/1/2010 10:22:06 AM , Rating: 2
1000000000000% agree

Our country forgot how to let bad ideas fail.

I'm more interested in the airforce using bio based fuel that we can make ourselves and not have to buy from the middle east and planes that can, you know, fly for longer on less fuel...

If Porshe, Ferrari, Lotus can make a supercar that can go 200+ MPH and get 60+ MPG, then the airforce can probably make an awesome plane that got 5x better fuel economy too.


RE: Is it just me...
By Arc177 on 4/1/2010 1:15:24 PM , Rating: 2
Biofuel- FAIL
5x improvement in fuel economy- EPIC FAIL

When you come back from disneyland please throw your crackpipe in the garbage. There is no possible way to make those sorts of improvements in efficiency.


RE: Is it just me...
By MadMan007 on 4/2/2010 7:00:31 PM , Rating: 2
Google 'air force biofuel' and I think you will find your first point is wrong.


RE: Is it just me...
By knutjb on 4/3/2010 3:00:54 PM , Rating: 2
Most people don't understand that a jet engine will run on just about any fuel. The Air Force has even tested a nuclear powered jet engine. http://www.aviastar.org/air/usa/convair_nb-36.php

They must test any new fuel at high altitude to ensure it can operate safely, i.e. not gel up, off gas,or any other problem in the intended aircraft.


RE: Is it just me...
By Keeir on 4/1/2010 4:26:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If Porshe, Ferrari, Lotus can make a supercar that can go 200+ MPH and get 60+ MPG, then the airforce can probably make an awesome plane that got 5x better fuel economy too.


::winces::

Name the car that does this?

The untested, unbuilt Porsche Spyder Concept? I can 100% promise that the car doesn't get 60+ MPG at 200 MPH. I also know the "78 Mpg" number banied about doens't include the electricity to feed the plug-in section and uses the testing methodology used to get a 230 MPG Volt....

In other words, if your a sedate driver, you'll probably use ~ 4kWh of electricity to drive your first ~15-20 miles. After that your likely down to ~20-25 MPG.

A plane doesn't have the luxury of carrying enough electric batteries to fly even a 50 miles or so... so that sort of massive increase in "efficieny" by using electricity instead of gas, really isn't there yet for large planes (its not there yet for large cars either)


RE: Is it just me...
By Calin on 4/1/2010 10:33:27 AM , Rating: 3
Yes, they only need to add navigation, computing, communication and refuelling capacity to an existing plane.
Just that the existing plane would need to fly for 50 years (as the B-52 is doing and as the current tanker is doing), and the airframe for the current tanker is not in production (and it would be much too expensive to build it again).
However , USAF was looking also for cargo transport capacity, troop transport capacity, medevac capacity, and a few other bonuses. The plane from Airbus was better at those, but it was larger (fewer usable airports) and heavier (without much more fuel capacity).
And the Airforce was looking also for a plane of a new generation and with as much commonality with the already flying planes (to ease maintenance in the far future), which Boeing didn't provide in the initial offers


RE: Is it just me...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/1/2010 1:15:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If only other defense contracts were looked at with such balance and scrutiny, maybe the F35 would be in production


Well actually if that was the case the F35 would have been scrapped in the planning stages. But I digress. I agree with you on the tanker issue. It's just getting silly.


RE: Is it just me...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/1/2010 1:15:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If only other defense contracts were looked at with such balance and scrutiny, maybe the F35 would be in production


Well actually if that was the case the F35 would have been scrapped in the planning stages. But I digress. I agree with you on the tanker issue. It's just getting silly.


same tune different company
By abel2 on 4/1/2010 9:26:54 AM , Rating: 2
I love sen. Murray's logic. Wasnt it boeing that was crying for an extension earlier when northrop was the clear winner. Now the roles have changed and she hollers about delays. Eads didnt even ask for an extension




By Brandon Hill (blog) on 4/1/2010 9:52:11 AM , Rating: 2
She's a Senator from Washington State... she's only covering her ass with regards to Boeing jobs in the state.

In a way, what else did you expect her to say? That being said, I wish they would end this BS and just give the contract to someone. I don't give a &#^@ who gets it as long as we replace the current aging fleet.


RE: same tune different company
By ElFenix on 4/1/2010 12:01:08 PM , Rating: 2
you mean, after northrop and shelby cried and improperly got the spec changed to favor its too big plane, right?

=D


RE: same tune different company
By karielash on 4/3/2010 8:05:44 PM , Rating: 2
No, I think they mean after a Boeing Exec and an ex-air force Major were put in federal prison for rigging the sale to Boeing in the first place.....


RE: same tune different company
By knutjb on 4/1/2010 1:44:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wasnt it boeing that was crying for an extension earlier when northrop was the clear winner.

Uh Boeing was complaining because the proposal evaluators changed. Boeing offered a 777 and the Air Force wanted a smaller aircraft so Boeing and the Air Force developed a customized 767 to meet those needs. A 767-200 with -400 wings, and a glass cockpit which the -200 never came with so it will require additional certification from the FAA. Then, because of Darlene Drunion's scandal, someone thought it better to have some Naval officers to judge the bids. The Naval officers DID NOT understand the Air Forces needs but they DID have some retired Navy pals working high up in Northrup and picked the wrong aircraft. Boeing as per law had the right to question the choice, the same way EADS can do if they join this bid and lose.

In the case of inflight refueling bigger is not always better. More small aircraft are far more efficient than fewer big aircraft.

quote:
Eads didnt even ask for an extension

Didn't you notice who was at the White House this week? The French President. Duh, the WH loves to pal around with its ideological idols in Europe.


RE: same tune different company
By Keeir on 4/1/2010 2:50:22 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty much all wrong

quote:
Wasnt it boeing that was crying for an extension earlier when northrop was the clear winner.


Problem. The Government Accountability Office, GAO, a non-partison branch of the government with "career" type appointments and hiring (IE spread across many adminstrations) determined that the Air Force did not follow its own 1.) General Aquistion Rules and 2.) Contract Award Guidelines in awarding the contract to NG/EADS. Its entirely possible that Boeing's contract was also not valid, but NG/EADS did not satisfy basic aquistion requirements AND did not satisfy basic requirements in plane requirements section.

quote:
Eads didnt even ask for an extension


EADS asked for a 90 day extension, or else they "won't bid." They then got the French Government involved... or let the French Government be involved. (Great PR EADS... having a foriegn government support your bid for a US military project)

It remains to be seen if EADS will bid with a 60 day extension or else throw up thier hands and walk away. I predict they will throw up thier hands (while working on it of course) in the hopes that in the next three months (90 days till bid deadline is essentially "now") that they get a further extension. After all, they really don't have to announce they are bidding till right before the deadline anyway.


EADS already won the last time
By monkeyman1140 on 4/4/2010 8:28:38 AM , Rating: 1
Boeing bitched about it to the government and the congressmen and senators they had purchased were able to scuttle the deal and overrule the Pentagon.

EADS should stay out of the mess, they know they will lose, and the only reason the offer is there is to make Boeing look good.




By monkeyman1140 on 4/4/2010 8:30:56 AM , Rating: 2
BTW the Russians are offering a tanker, but even though it will be cheaper and have everything the USAF needs, the contract is going to Boeing.

The corruption in our government is worse than in most banana republics.


EADS is Subsidized
By tng on 4/2/2010 1:39:12 PM , Rating: 2
I probably spelled "Subsidized" incorrectly, but you get the point.

In the past 10-20 years the various states of the EU have given Airbus over $170 billion dollars for startup costs, development costs, etc...

It does not matter if it is the best plane for the job, the point is that less than a week after the WTO ruled in Boeings favor against Airbus over government support, our DOD is now going to let them compete in this contract?

Although Boeing may not be going out of business soon, when something like this goes overseas, the talent pool of people here in these fields will disperse and the industry will not recover.

In my opinion, these types of contracts should stay here in the conutry where they will benefit our industries and where the people that the military defends live.

The argument can be made that allot of Boeings current military and government contracts amount to the same thing, but that is really not true now days. If you look at the cancelation of the F22, Lockheed had estimated years ago that to recoup developmental costs it would need to sell over twice as many as they are going to sell now. They are left holding the bill.




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