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  (Source: Toonk.nl)
Anti-net neutrality language removed from key bill

FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski and his staff earlier this week proposed new net neutrality rules that would block internet service providers (ISPs) from discriminating against internet traffic by traffic type (e.g. P2P traffic) and prevent the sale of expensive "speed lanes" and relegation of independent sites to "slow lanes".  It would also require ISPs to be more transparent about their traffic practices.  The proposal quickly was threatened, though, and the rest of the week Genachowski and his Democratic colleagues in Congress were left scrambling to try to save the initiative.

The measures were placed in jeopardy by Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison's (R-Texas) language which she planned to insert into an Interior Department appropriations bill.  The language would blocking financing enforcement of the new FCC rules – many Republicans supported the measure. 

However, opponents on the other side of the aisle pointed out that the ownership of ISPs had given the Republican party much support and would stand to profit from the death of net neutrality.  And Republicans in many state legislative bodies, such as North Carolina, have supported the imposition of greater government restrictions on telecommunications, in efforts to effectively outlaw municipal Wi-Fi, which might outcompete the overpriced limited commercial ISP offerings that currently exist.

In the eleventh hour, they backed down, though, thanks to the FCC staff reaching out to them.  A Republican staffer stated to The Washington Post, "While we are still generally opposed to net neutrality regulations, we have decided to hold off on the amendment because [FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski] approached us and we are beginning a dialogue."

The real debate will likely occur in October when the proposal is officially presented.  It will then go through a regularly scheduled notice of proposed rule making (NPRM), a session in which the ISPs and Republicans will likely push the FCC to relax certain parts of the rules or make changes.

Industry sentiment on the new measures vary.  AT&T wants to make the enforcement even stronger -- but exempt wireless services from the provisions.  Virgin's CEO, on the other hand, recently remarked that net neutrality was a "load of bullocks".  Verizon opposed the measure, while Comcast gave it some praise.  Industry groups commented that the bill had some good parts, despite expressing concerns as well.



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wat???
By goku on 9/24/2009 3:03:15 PM , Rating: 2
Comcast, giving net neutrality praise? I am missing something here!?!?!?!??! Like we forgot the whole filtering out bitorrent stuff and whatnot? Maybe I misread this or something but hopefully somebody will clarify this for me as this coming out of Comcast seems strange.




RE: wat???
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/24/2009 3:06:35 PM , Rating: 5
"Comcast applauds Chairman Genachowski’s goal of ensuring that the Internet remains open as it is today, and we welcome the dialogue suggested by his comments."

...that was Comcast's official response.

Of course by "dialogue" it may consist of Comcast demanding that the oversight provisions be removed, so it can continue to practice its throttling shenanigans.


RE: wat???
By TomZ on 9/24/2009 3:13:37 PM , Rating: 5
All that means is that Comcast has figured out a different way to shaft their customers, and the FCC doesn't know about it yet. Always one step ahead...


RE: wat???
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/24/2009 3:15:38 PM , Rating: 5
I wouldn't doubt it...


RE: wat???
By quiksilvr on 9/24/2009 5:39:25 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. But there are a couple other crucial factors:

1) Comcast has a lot of negative PR and getting behind net neutrality will save them some grace amongst the ignorant masses.

2) The Pirate Bay crumbled big time. Now people are turning to rapidshare and megaupload but it's not eating away their precious internet tubes as much as ye old scurvy pirates.


RE: wat???
By Dorkyman on 9/24/2009 6:53:12 PM , Rating: 2
Pirate Bay has crumbled? Oh, I know that it SUPPOSEDLY is defunct, but it's still there...


RE: wat???
By rudolphna on 9/24/09, Rating: -1
RE: wat???
By Jason H on 9/24/2009 8:05:00 PM , Rating: 5
Um, yeah they do...


RE: wat???
By sprockkets on 9/24/2009 11:39:20 PM , Rating: 2
Uh, no they don't. The only reason why it might be working is that they followed one of the rules/suggestions of making torrents: Use multiple trackers from at least 2 other sites just in case TPB is taken down.

I didn't do that because I was lazy; my torrents are all dead.


RE: wat???
By Alexstarfire on 9/25/2009 1:26:22 AM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure that the torrent I downloaded yesterday had The Pirate Bay tracker working. Unless uTorrent was lying to me.


RE: wat???
By sprockkets on 9/25/2009 2:00:57 AM , Rating: 2
You can still download torrents from TPB, but take a look at the tracker tab. You'll see multiple trackers, and all the ones with TPB domains will timeout. I'm trying 2 torrents right now, and the status of it in Ktorrent is "Announcing".

This one works:http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5099546/The.Colber...

But it works because I found peers via http://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80/announce

This torrent: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5099564/Supernatur...

looks to have thousands of peers/leechers, yet after 10 minutes I have yet to get through to the tracker.

I used to have 150+ download from one of my torrents, but since no one can find anyone via the tracker, peers have dropped to 7, and I expect it to die completely as more and more can't connect to seeders and give up.


RE: wat???
By OAKside24 on 9/25/2009 2:34:14 AM , Rating: 2
It seems to me that all of the torrents on TPB have had a couple of new trackers added to them to replace the old TPB trackers that have been down:

http://tracker.openbittorrent.com/announce
http://tracker.publicbt.com/announce

Keep Peer Exchange and DHT enabled and there's really no problem finding seeds/peers on previously popular/seeded torrents. I always add these five trackers to public torrents because they are always working and usually have seeds/peers:

http://tracker.openbittorrent.com/announce
http://tracker.publicbt.com/announce
http://denis.stalker.h3q.com/announce
http://tracker.prq.to/announce
http://tracker4.finalgear.com/announce


RE: wat???
By sprockkets on 9/25/2009 2:47:00 AM , Rating: 2
I'll keep those in mind :)

I can't remember why I didn't turn on DHT and/or make it trackerless...

But, again, TPB's trackers have been down, for weeks, ever since the ISP episode. Maybe it will come back when the site is transitioned.


RE: wat???
By theapparition on 9/25/2009 1:34:57 PM , Rating: 2
Not at all.

OK, I'll agree with the comment that Comcast will always find a way to shaft thier customers, but......

Supporting Net-Neutrality is in Comcasts best interest. Comcast is not a backbone provider, meaning they are just the store front end. They have to lease much of thier communication network's fat pipes. Meaning the companies that control these lines can tier price Comcast's offerings. If Comcast found itself in a competitive position where speed increases are required, it could find itself being charged a premium for high speed links.

So in effect, Comcast applauds this decision because it benefits them, not you.


RE: wat???
By Reclaimer77 on 9/24/2009 6:50:46 PM , Rating: 2
Mick minor gripe, and you aren't the only one who's made this mistake, but the fact is the Republicans don't have the votes to stop ANYTHING anymore.


RE: wat???
By Chaser on 9/25/2009 11:20:41 AM , Rating: 2
Not all Democrats are in lockstep. Several of them join the Republicans in some issues i.e. the healthcare "public" option that thankfully died a miserable death.

But as it stands Americans are beginning to become more conscious now how a single party having sole "power" is a bad thing. For example these rushed bills they try to scramble through before the public, news media, and even the senator or congress person themselves have a chance to read the bill.

Balance or better yet checks and balance are important and all signs are pointing to a restoration of that next year in the 2010 elections. Some of the most liberal senators like Dick Durbin, Harry Reed and even Barbara Boxer are in significant trouble poll wise.


RE: wat???
By Lerianis on 9/26/2009 1:00:45 AM , Rating: 3
Thankfully? That would have been the best thing to happen in the United States in the past 50 years, a public health care option.


RE: wat???
By kondor999 on 9/26/2009 7:40:39 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah right. Funny how suddenly the Rushublicans are all into "checks and balances" now that the nation finally had enough of their warmongering and crony capitalism and made them an irrelevant nuisance. Once again, their main agenda is to thwart the will of the People, and to serve the unbridled interests of their corporate owners.

Now that they don't have the votes to do it, they start whining about the need for "checks and balances". Here's a news flash: we already got 'em.

It's called the Constitution. Go win some elections and stop complaining.


RE: wat???
By Chaser on 9/26/2009 11:51:13 AM , Rating: 2
And most Americans see they aren't working too good. Most anyway. All that "hope and change" isn't turning out to be what they bargained for. Even most average idiots can see that there's a serious problem when those "decisive winners" are trying to rifle through ridiculous bills in the middle of the night without giving a chance for even the news media to read them. Is that the voice of the people too? Nope the VOICE of the people sounded off at townhall meetings and tea parties and put an end to a narcissistic government takeover of 1/6 of our GDP and other reckless spending.

quote:
Go win some elections

Oh you can rest assured those voices -both Republican and Democrat- won't forget and will do exactly that for next year's 2010 congressional elections.


RE: wat???
By Jalek on 9/27/2009 12:17:34 AM , Rating: 2
It'd be nice to believe that.. but I think voters will elect a representative government instead of people with the best sound-bite ads and am disappointed every time.


RE: wat???
By Reclaimer77 on 9/27/2009 1:29:55 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Yeah right. Funny how suddenly the Rushublicans are all into "checks and balances" now that the nation finally had enough of their warmongering and crony capitalism and made them an irrelevant nuisance. Once again, their main agenda is to thwart the will of the People, and to serve the unbridled interests of their corporate owners.


Funny how I remember almost every single Democrat voting for the said "warmongering". But yeah, clearly the Bush administration was tyranical.

"The Will of the People". Riiiight. Because it's not like Bush won his second term by a huge landslide, right ?? Oh wait, he did.

As far as your "capitalism evil, socialism good" points, that's so tired it's not even funny. Take a look at the world around you, moron.

quote:
It's called the Constitution. Go win some elections and stop complaining.


Which is being trampled on a daily basis by Obama. Where in the HELL is it written that a President can fire a CEO ? Where in the hell is it written that "Czars", single individuals, should have unchecked power over entire industries and government sectors ? How in the HELL was the "stimulus" Constitutional ?


RE: wat???
By MadMan007 on 9/27/2009 3:53:24 PM , Rating: 2
It's one thing to wonder about things that are not specifically laid out, of course the Constitution was written a few hundred years ago and I don't think they could have anticipated the world as it is today and thpose things can always be challenged, but don't be so blamey-gamey when 'your side' did things that were blatently against specific things in the Constitution.

Here's a hint - don't buy one side's view hook line and sinker on every topic. This isn't some damn sports contest so quit acting like it's 'your team' that you have to support no matter what.


RE: wat???
By FITCamaro on 9/24/2009 3:08:17 PM , Rating: 2
The bill doesn't outlaw blocking or slowing down certain traffic. It just prevents selling fast and slow lanes. So Comcast won't be affected.


RE: wat???
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/24/2009 3:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This means they cannot block or degrade lawful traffic over their networks, or pick winners by favoring some content or applications over others in the connection to subscribers’ homes. Nor can they disfavor an Internet service just because it competes with a similar service offered by that broadband provider. The Internet must continue to allow users to decide what content and applications succeed.


http://www.openinternet.gov/read-speech.html

... That's from Genachowski's speech. Certainly sounds like he's saying that the provisions that will be introduced will block slowing down p2p traffic as that would qualify as "favoring some content".

My analysis is that these new rules indeed *will* ban throttling, if passed. Other articles I've read have interpreted his language in the same way. So Comcast might be at least marginally effected.

You're absolutely right about its provisions to block speed lanes, though.


RE: wat???
By FITCamaro on 9/24/2009 3:19:01 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
This means they cannot block or degrade lawful traffic over their networks


They will simply argue that the majority of P2P traffic is unlawful (and probably be right).


RE: wat???
By Low Key on 9/24/2009 3:34:49 PM , Rating: 2
They would have to prove that each individual p2p transfer is unlawful though because p2p itself is still sometimes used in legal ways.


RE: wat???
By lightfoot on 9/24/2009 4:10:22 PM , Rating: 3
Actually it will probably work opposite that. They will throttle any P2P traffic that they can not validate as being legal. Anything encrypted or otherwise scrambled could effectively be deemed suspicious. The burden of proof would fall on the consumer to prove otherwise.


RE: wat???
By ExarKun333 on 9/24/2009 4:18:58 PM , Rating: 2
Doubtful.


RE: wat???
By Alexstarfire on 9/24/2009 6:26:58 PM , Rating: 3
Guilty until proven innocent? I'd like to see how the masses respond to that one.

Though with the way many things turn out these days I'm sure they'll just lay down and take it. Might even lube themselves up for it as well.


RE: wat???
By Redwin on 9/24/2009 3:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
majority != all, and you can't differentiate legal from illegal without deep packet inspection, which they aren't supposed to be doing.

Seems like if you can't prove its all illegal, a good court case can be made by the first blocked guy torrenting legal content that you can't block any of it.


RE: wat???
By HolgerDK on 9/24/2009 5:58:16 PM , Rating: 2
I guess every Comcast-customer that plays WoW and got throttled on patchday (blizzard distributes patches via torrents) would have a case against them then.

Should be enough to band together and pay for a decent lawyer :)


RE: wat???
By MozeeToby on 9/24/2009 3:32:11 PM , Rating: 3
Funny, everything that I've read has said the opposite; traffic shaping is allowed as that isn't favoring some content, but rather some protocol. The two main purposes of net neutrality are 1) Not allowing Time Warner Cable (for example) to slow down access to Hulu in order to prevent their customers using it. And 2) Keeping cost of entry to the net as low as possible.

Also, it doesn't make sense not to favor some protocols over others. For example, it makes no sense to give P2P protocols the same latency as VoIP protocols. The two are used for different purposes and because of that have totally different requirements.

Now, all that being said, it's possible that the lawmakers just dropped the ball on this one. But it's at least as possible that Genachowski got it wrong in his speech.


RE: wat???
By Alexstarfire on 9/25/09, Rating: 0
RE: wat???
By Starcub on 9/25/2009 12:27:37 PM , Rating: 2
The FCC'c recent actions WRT Comcast would suggest that traffic shaping of legal P2P connections would not be considered 'reasonable network management' practice. The implication is that ISP's would need the ability to determine what content was legal or not in order to perform 'reasonable network management'. Here, I suspect is where the govt. and ISP's will be involved in collaboration: to determine what circumstances will trigger the ability of ISP's to snoop on user activity, to determine if those users can be throttled or blocked.


RE: wat???
By Alexstarfire on 9/26/2009 3:12:35 PM , Rating: 2
Only problem I see with that is if they know it's illegal, why not just arrest you and shut your computer off? Makes a lot more sense than just throttling your service. Hell, even if they don't arrest you they should at least automatically cut off your service. I mean, if illegal traffic really is that bad then it should free up a bunch of bandwidth for them.

Of course, most of the traffic isn't going to be illegal as they claim, depending on what falls under illegal though. I'm sorry, but acquiring something because I can't legally get it should not be illegal. That really just makes no sense. Of course, I'm not talking about actual stealing, but I think you understand what I mean. Hopefully.


RE: wat???
By 0ldman on 9/26/2009 12:57:23 AM , Rating: 2
Your PC can handle its own QoS, to a degree. It needs to be configured.

The problem lies in a handful of PC's running uTorrent with 2000 connections per second drowning out your VoIP upstream, regardless of how your personal network/PC manages QoS.

We've had 2 customers running 6000 active connections per second cause our Cisco router to choke. Admittedly, it wasn't a really powerful router, but there is no valid reason for 2 PC's to run that many connections. We've got large business customers, 20 to 100+ PC's running that don't have over 1000 connections coming out of their network.

When 2 customers can triple the number of active connections already running by the other 250+... something needs to be done.


RE: wat???
By Alexstarfire on 9/26/2009 3:16:37 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, with the way it seems the internet and computers are going in general I think that we are just going to see more and more connections. Something does need to be done, but I don't see it as issues with connections. The way things are now we simply can't handle that many connections. The solution isn't always to lower connections, though at a certain point it does need to be managed, but to increase the way we handle connections. If you can handle more connections, then you can usually get more done, especially with a torrent program, or anything else that uses that many connections.


RE: wat???
By JPForums on 9/28/2009 10:48:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
For example, it makes no sense to give P2P protocols the same latency as VoIP protocols. The two are used for different purposes and because of that have totally different requirements.


Agreed. Different protocols should be treated differently. Real-time streaming require low latencies, but they typically don't require incredibly large amounts of throughput. P2P doesn't really care about latency. Rather, it wants large sustained throughput. Web browsing, e-mail, and the likes want large amounts of bandwidth in short bursts (which results in relatively low throughput).

quote:
Also, it doesn't make sense not to favor some protocols over others.


It depends on what you means by favoring. Traffic shaping is often implemented by means of throttling. Throttling is unnecessary and often results in unused bandwidth. A better method would be to implement proper prioritization schemes. Real-time protocols get access first, streaming protocols second, ... , file sharing last. In many scenarios, the P2P services would actually speed up due to the fact that protocols they are sharing bandwidth with would complete sooner and get out of the way. Overall, it would result in a slight slowdown as opposed to the massive slowdown throttling brings.

Obviously, there would need to be weights associated with each priority level to make sure the lowest levels get an appropriate amount of time on the lines. However, this sort of resource sharing has been present in computers for a long time. It might be wise, however, to make sure that no single user can maintain the highest priority level on more than a limited number of connections. I.E. If you want to video conference with several people while streaming a hulu show, you would have to accept the resulting latency. Likewise, if you want to connect to 150 peers for torrents, you shouldn't expect all of them to respond as quickly as the first one.

It may even be a good idea to prioritize protocols on an customer basis rather than an individual connection basis. It would maintain better fairness between customers. Without this prioritization, one customer with 150 torrents gets the same bandwidth as 10 customers with 15 torrents a piece (Assuming no bottle necks and equal connection speeds). With prioritization, each of the 11 customers would get the same bandwidth. Without throttling, this could end up being the maximum bandwidth available anyways.


RE: wat???
By mikefarinha on 9/25/2009 11:00:05 AM , Rating: 1
Generally the more regulated an industry the harder it is for the little guy to compete or enter. This is why the big companies AT&T and Comcast are on board.


RE: wat???
By mikefarinha on 9/25/2009 11:04:15 AM , Rating: 1
I mean imagine if a company came along and said that you can have 10Mbit for $15/month for web traffic. Or you can upgrade to 10Mbit for $35/month for full internet traffic.

The whole net neutrality concept was thought up by conspiracy theorists worried about a plot to hamper peoples 'secret' traffic. The reality of it is that it could provide a means of product differentiation.


RE: wat???
By Alexstarfire on 9/25/2009 11:54:32 AM , Rating: 2
No, it really isn't. I think you need to stop being paranoid.


More government intervention
By Micronite on 9/24/2009 3:56:32 PM , Rating: 1
I'm all for fast internet. In fact, I pay extra so I can have the fastest speed my ISP offers.

Maybe I'm missing the whole net-neutrality thing here, but I don't like the idea of government telling someone that they can't buy a "speed lane" from the company that provides the service in the first place.
If you don't like that your ISP throttles your connection due to traffic type, complain to your ISP and if they don't take you seriously, get a new ISP.

Eventually, if enough people put their foot down on important issues, the free market will follow.

Seriously, some people forget that...
quote:
There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else.
-Sam Walton




RE: More government intervention
By ExarKun333 on 9/24/2009 4:21:14 PM , Rating: 2
Compain to your ISP and get a new one? Oh wait, there is only 1-2 ISPs to choose from in most areas! Where I live, I have the choice between Comcast or Quest. I don't want (or need) a home phone line, so guess who I go with? Free Market? Get a clue; internet hasn't been a free market since broadband reared it's ugly head.


RE: More government intervention
By FITCamaro on 9/24/2009 4:29:45 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah but that's government's fault. These companies didn't rise up and stomp out competition through unfair pricing. The government just gave them an area and said "here. do what you want".

Get government out of it, and his point would be valid and is my sentiments exactly.


RE: More government intervention
By MadMan007 on 9/24/2009 4:42:51 PM , Rating: 1
Not surprisingly FIT stops at the point where 'get government out of it' is the conclusion. You probably know but conveniently don't write that telco and cable companies demanded these mono/duo-polies in order to build the infrastructure in their area otherwise it would have been too expensive.


RE: More government intervention
By FITCamaro on 9/24/2009 5:16:35 PM , Rating: 5
Yes and they never should have done it. The idea that NO ONE will ever build the required infrastructure is absurd. And proven by Verizon today which is spending tons of money rolling out FiOS across the country. If there is a demand for a product, the product will eventually come.

Are we supposed to type out the entire history of something if we wish to form an opinion about it?

And no, getting the government out of it won't necessarily fix the problem. But does it hurt to try it? Let there actually be competition in the market. If that doesn't work, then have some regulation. But don't complain about a lack of competition and demand government action when government(as many people do) is what prevented competition in the first place.

Even if it doesn't fix the net neutrality issue, more competition in the market can still serve to keep prices and practices fair. They certainly can't be less fair than they are today can they?


RE: More government intervention
By Oregonian2 on 9/24/2009 6:04:50 PM , Rating: 2
Just a note to point out that Verizon, one of the most profitable telecom companies (meaning... having resources for capital expenses) already is pulling back from even some big metro areas to focus FiOS to the huge metro areas.

FiOS installations in Washington state (incl. metro Seattle, home of Microsoft), Oregon (incl. Metro Portland, home of Intel's largest employee facilities), and parts of Indiana are being abandoned (to Frontier) so that they can concentrate on the new NYC (etc) opportunities. Not exactly "rolling out FiOS across the country". It's only to high profit areas.


RE: More government intervention
By rdawise on 9/24/2009 11:19:26 PM , Rating: 2
This post by Oregonian2 is the greatest example of a free market inherent flaw:

"Just a note to point out that Verizon, one of the most profitable telecom companies (meaning... having resources for capital expenses) already is pulling back from even some big metro areas to focus FiOS to the huge metro areas.

FiOS installations in Washington state (incl. metro Seattle, home of Microsoft), Oregon (incl. Metro Portland, home of Intel's largest employee facilities), and parts of Indiana are being abandoned (to Frontier) so that they can concentrate on the new NYC (etc) opportunities. Not exactly "rolling out FiOS across the country". It's only to high profit areas. "

Customers want FIOS, but can't get FIOS if it's not available. Verizon will do want is most profitable, in this case.


RE: More government intervention
By mikefarinha on 9/25/2009 11:11:05 AM , Rating: 4
This isn't a flaw. A company doing an analysis of the area realized that they they can't make a profit in the area which means that people aren't willing to pay enough for the service. Those people don't want FIOS at the real market price for their area.


RE: More government intervention
By rdawise on 9/26/2009 3:50:46 AM , Rating: 2
Are you really going to say that FIOS couldn't make a profit in Seattle of all places? I could understand if it was some small hick town where the cost would greatly out weigh the benefit, but Seattle?

People didn't want to pay enough for the service? It's 54.99 a month, what more did they want?

Again, as I stated before, in a pure free market society, the customer will only have a say in what they will buy, not what is available. That is the flaw.


RE: More government intervention
By Oregonian2 on 9/28/2009 6:44:12 PM , Rating: 2
No, it's not a matter of being profitable or not. It's a matter of concentrating the available investment capital (that's been "down" the least year or two) that'll have the fastest/largest return on investment. Places like NYC where they've gotten a contract allows an installation-dollar to go further due to the large scale in one system.

I don't mean to "attack" Verizon so much (I'll at least have Frontier FiOS whatever they'll call it) but just to say that the idea that systems like FiOS are being rolled out across the country just isn't true. There's only one producing FiOS and they're actively reducing the area of the country that they're serving.


RE: More government intervention
By rdawise on 9/24/2009 11:16:42 PM , Rating: 1
Wow FIT, wasn't one of the major reasons we are in a recession that lank of regulation of the bank industry? You wish to "let the market decide"? Let's look at the banking example. There was competition (noted by low-qualifying loans for several companies) and people went for them. There wasn't any regulation and now look where we are. I know you fear the government boogeyman, but at what point does logic step in?

You accuse government of the current cable/telecom situation when it was the private sector companies who lobbied the government for it. Government didn't prevent the competition, the competition asked the government not to allow more competition.

You are right to some extent that a free market can be solvent, but without regulation that free market will become monopolistic (spelling). In a competition, someone will lose and be cannibalized thus ending competition. That's where a free market has it's inherent flaw. The customers will always only have a say in what they will buy, not always what will be available.

Look at the health care industry. Right now we have a free market to an extent. Does this mean the industry is solvent by it's self, no. Everyone (left and right) agrees that it needs to be fixed, but the free market can't fix it by it's self.

Anyone, more to the point, net neutrality is a good thing.


RE: More government intervention
By callmeroy on 9/25/2009 8:45:41 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Look at the health care industry. Right now we have a free market to an extent. Does this mean the industry is solvent by it's self, no. Everyone (left and right) agrees that it needs to be fixed, but the free market can't fix it by it's self.


To an extent I agree with your points in your previous post EXCEPT for the health care stuff I quote above....this is so far off base (re: incorrect) its staggering to anyone more informed or in the health care industry right now (my company exclusively consults for the health care industry -- hospitials, clinics, even small family practices throughout the country).

This isn't a cop out, but I literally can't explain everything in a forum post -- the post would be enormous and I don't have that kind of time.

There are MANY areas of health care today that are strictly due to government regulation and controls that make for some insane policies, practices and procedures that must be followed that in turn not only jepordize the safety of every american but has created wasteful spending - to staggering degrees.

Folks complain about the 800 billion and rising spend so far ont he Iraq War......that's chicken scratch to the amounts of waste in the Health care industry.


RE: More government intervention
By myhipsi on 9/25/2009 8:56:15 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
...wasn't one of the major reasons we are in a recession that lank of regulation of the bank industry? You wish to "let the market decide"? Let's look at the banking example. There was competition (noted by low-qualifying loans for several companies) and people went for them. There wasn't any regulation and now look where we are.


Sigh... Yet another person who believes the government propaganda and is as misguided as the washington burocrats.

If you actually did some research, you'd realize that government/fed intervention and regulation was the sole reason for the financial crisis.

TRUE free markets are self regulating with greed/profit motive on one side of the scale and risk/fear on the other.

From an article by Steven Horwitz, a professor of economics at St. Lawrence University.

To call the housing and credit crisis a failure of the free market or the product of unregulated greed is to overlook the myriad government regulations, policies, and political pronouncements that have both reduced the freedom of this market and led self-interested actors to produce disastrous consequences, often unintentionally.

The two biggest players in the mortgage market are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Until they were nationalized recently, they were "government sponsored enterprises" (GSEs). That meant they enjoyed all the profit potential of a private business, but carried none of the risk. How would you run your business differently if you knew the government would bail you out or if Congress bullied you into adopting certain business strategies? Would you be acting greedily – or just rationally?

Throughout the 1990s, Washington encouraged these GSEs to expand home-ownership among lower-income, and thus more risky, borrowers. In 2004 and 2005, following the accounting scandals at Freddie, both GSEs paid penance to Congress by agreeing to expand their direct lending to low-income, higher-risk customers. Both acquired more subprime and Alt-A loans, making it profitable for banks to originate them, confident that the US taxpayers ultimately stood behind Freddie and Fannie. From 2003 to 2006, the percentage of loans the GSEs made in those riskier categories grew from8 percent to about 20 percent in 2006. This meddling helped drive up housing prices, leading other players to pile fancy new instruments on top of those mortgages, leading to a speculative bubble that was, at root, caused by the actions of two government-sponsored entities unleashed from the normal profit-and-loss checks of the free market.

Fueling this speculative fire was the Federal Reserve, also a government-sponsored organization. The Fed moved interest rates to extraordinarily low levels beginning in 2001. The additional credit it provided artificially lowered the cost of mortgages and dramatically accelerated the housing boom begun in the 1990s.

Did people suddenly get greedy in their pursuit of McMansions, second homes, and flipping homes for easy profit? Yes, but only because abnormally low interest rates made it foolish not to be. This was hardly a failure of free markets or greed. It was the predictable consequence of government distorting the interest rate.

The only relevant piece of deregulation of the past 15 years is the 1999 Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which repealed the Depression-era separation of investment and commercial banking. However, this has been a blessing rather than a curse, as it has enabled commercial banks to buy up failing investment banks and permitted other failing investment banks to save themselves by becoming commercial banks. Without that deregulation, today's crisis would have been even more devastating.

Good intentions are not enough in designing public policy. Regulations designed with the best of intentions are likely to lead to more crises if they distort incentives and thereby cause individual "greed" to undermine economic growth and harm millions. History is full of examples of politicians adopting short-run solutions without seeing the harmful long-run consequences.

Today, the calls to "do something" are loud. Yet amid the cacophony, there are a few voices urging not more, but less; not faster, but slower; not short term, but long term; not intent, but outcomes. Those are the voices we should heed, because if we had listened to them 15 or 20 years ago, we might not be where we are today.


It's so sad that we haven't seen REAL free market economics function in decades. People need to do some research and quit listening to the agenda driven talking heads before they end up falling into the hell hole that is government regulation and socialism.


RE: More government intervention
By rdawise on 9/26/2009 3:44:57 AM , Rating: 2
Ah yes, the sole reason for the recession was the government. Nevermind the people who bought the loan products (aka the free market), the credit cards (aka the free market), or out and out didn't pay bills (aka the free market).

A true free market is self regulating how? Profit will only regulate what you can do not you will do. A perfect example, again, was contained your own quote:

"Did people suddenly get greedy in their pursuit of McMansions, second homes, and flipping homes for easy profit? Yes, but only because abnormally low interest rates made it foolish not to be. This was hardly a failure of free markets or greed. It was the predictable consequence of government distorting the interest rate."

The man contradicts himself and says that people were greedy in their purseit because it wasn't their greed's fault. In truth it was their fault as well as the fault of the Federal Reserve to encourage such greed. But wouldn't this mean it should be better regulated? Wouldn't this scenario imply that if a governing body would have better regulated the interest rates, the situation wouldn't have happened? Your quote already proved the greed of the free market, left unchecked, cares little for your, and I quote, "risk/failures". The recession is proof of that.

I am for free markets, but the idea of a free market without regulation has holes that I am not afraid to recognize. I could be like you and put my tin foil hat on, but my logic wouldn't allow that.

But man, got too hate all this socialism though right? I mean dang, POLICE, SCHOOLS, ROADS, etc. It''s going to doom us all...[/sarcasm]

You may place your tin foil hats back on...


By mikefarinha on 9/25/2009 11:15:26 AM , Rating: 2
No. There are many reasons that caused this current recession. At the top of the list is the Federal Reserve. Other factors include BAD regulation, Crony Capitalism (aka corporate/government corruption), and social engineering experiments.

On the mater of regulation there was plenty of regulation and there were plenty of warnings from the regulators. The problem is that corrupt politicians like Barny Frank and Chris Dodds ignored the warnings. More regulations only hurts the people obeying the laws.


RE: More government intervention
By Starcub on 9/25/2009 12:55:00 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The idea that NO ONE will ever build the required infrastructure is absurd. And proven by Verizon today which is spending tons of money rolling out FiOS across the country. If there is a demand for a product, the product will eventually come.

Peoples' biggest complaint about verison and other ISP's is their crappy level of service and support, and the lack of competition in the market place. How will the rollout of FiOS in a few big metropolis's fix this? IMO, this will make the problem worse as it will raise the bar to market entry in a market that is already monopolistic. People will still be beholden to the will of the big telcom's.

quote:
But don't complain about a lack of competition and demand government action when government(as many people do) is what prevented competition in the first place.

This statement is completely incorrect. Telecom's used to be heavily regulated before the laws were changed. The deregulation was supposed to open the market up. However, what happened was that the government deregulated the industry and gave the big players money to expand their network capability, but didn't hold them accountable for their investment. So the consumer/taxpayer got screwed.

Irresponsible government and a lack of government regulation is waht got us into the mess we are in. Relying on the industry to fix the problem hasn't worked in the past, in fact it's gotten worse. Such has historically been the case between vendors and consumers. Who wants a provider that only provides when they are threatened?

BTW, I wonder what would constitute a fair level of subsity to prospect municipal providers, given the amount of public funding that has gone to industry already?


RE: More government intervention
By Lerianis on 9/26/2009 1:03:57 AM , Rating: 2
No, that is NOT government's fault. If government wasn't in this, there would be EVEN LESS PROVIDERS, perhaps only ONE.

It's time to start putting the blame where it belongs: on skittish investors who are unwilling to put money up so that people can challenge Comcast, etc. for customers and business.


RE: More government intervention
By MadMan007 on 9/24/2009 4:56:58 PM , Rating: 2
This isn't about end users, whether they be individual consumers or other companies, not being able to buy 'faster lanes.' It was never the intention of net neutrality to prevent various grades of service between the user and ISP from being available, but rather that once a packet is in the hands of the ISP it's not favored more or less than any other packet.


RE: More government intervention
By Bateluer on 9/24/2009 5:05:20 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. All packets are treated equal, the ISP cannot route packets from small businesses that cannot afford the price premium for the 'fast lane'. Allowing ISPs to create their fast lane for 'favored' businesses and organizations who can afford the fees would effectively kill all but the largest businesses in the long term.

I lean towards the political right, but I'm glad the republicans and ISPs were defeated on Net Neutrality.


RE: More government intervention
By Iaiken on 9/24/2009 5:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
You don't understand the case that is being presented or the mission of net neutrality.

Basically, if you pay for 10Mb internet it would be illegal for your ISP to use their last mile of infrastructure to degrade your streams from Hulu. It is expensive for ISP's to offer up streams like Hulu and YouTube to tens of thousands of concurrent users for 20-30 minutes at a time each.

This also means that your ISP cannot discriminate against traffic bound for a competitors network in order to create the appearance of the competition having inferior service. In most cases this would result in reciprocity and everyones service would be degraded as a result.

Net Neutrality provides a guarantee that if you are paying for 10Mb internet, that you are getting as close to that figure as the network is capable of accommodating.


RE: More government intervention
By croc on 9/24/2009 7:38:56 PM , Rating: 1
Sam Walton is dead, and probably rolling over in his grave over the travesty that his progeny have made of his great vision, and the mockery that they have made of the name 'walmart'. Greed is good. Capitalism is good. Customers can get whatever they want, as long as it is made in China, or Vietnam or Bangladesh, and as long as I get my quarterly bonus.


RE: More government intervention
By imaheadcase on 9/25/2009 9:17:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Customers get whatever they want, as long as its made in china..


You do realize that you HAVE to make stuff in other countries to keep up demand of customers? Sam Walton would actually be jumping for joy knowing the over priced American products was not exclusive to walmart only. If that was the case you would have every walmart in the USA with one isle of food and one of everything else.

Learn some facts before spreading fud :P


RE: More government intervention
By Starcub on 9/25/2009 1:05:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You do realize that you HAVE to make stuff in other countries to keep up demand of customers?

You do realize that it wasn't always that way? You only have to manufacture in countries with autoritarian govt's, weak regulation, and lack of concern for social responsibility if you're trying to finance extensions to your house of cards.

China has big problems -- 80% of their industry is fueled by coal -- and look who's now trying to hold them accountable for their contribution to the problems of the environment!


Poor Fools
By iFX on 9/25/2009 10:02:12 AM , Rating: 4
The Democrats aren't for neutral Internet, they're for Internet that they can regulate.

The people pushing for REAL Internet neutrality are those AGAINST government regulation.

Fools.




?
By Zingam on 9/25/2009 1:36:29 AM , Rating: 3
I have no nerve to read all of this but I have one question: Is there still democracy in the US? US reminds me more and more of the Soviet Union and the Peoples Republic of China




Net neutrality
By Josh7289 on 9/26/2009 11:09:54 PM , Rating: 2
Is desired




Net Nuetrality is a joke!
By mwilliams6464 on 9/27/2009 11:10:19 PM , Rating: 2
The entire principal of net neutrality is a joke. Would someone remind me who owns the ISPs? The Private stockholders/shareholders etc. NOT THE GOVERNMENT. This is all an attempt by the Obama administration to wage a government takeover of the internet where there is private ownership of the property and public control of property (the internet, in this case). That is the definition of fascism. The next step will be rationed internet service because the profits of the ISPs are goping to be so much lower, and then presto censorship! the government will decide who gets to say what and when.




By imaheadcase on 9/24/2009 8:19:38 PM , Rating: 3
You do realize that free speech and constitutional right is not universal? The internet is bigger than one country.

The whole government system is corrupt in the sense it has a "party" system. It purposely pits one against another than instead of finding common ground on important issues. Its like school all over again, the popular one wins even if it is wrong because they just gets the most attention.


By NA1NSXR on 9/24/2009 10:41:30 PM , Rating: 2
Where did you learn all this bullshit?


By imaheadcase on 9/25/2009 9:18:46 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Where did you learn all this bullshit?


The USA goverment.


By straycat74 on 9/25/2009 9:42:25 AM , Rating: 3
You obviously don't understand a functioning economy at all. People like you always try to compare the United States to a Utopia, but you don't really understand the nature of man. You can thank your high standard of living not from the bottom 10% but the top 10%.

If you came from a dirt poor family, and worked hard and became wealthy, the last thing you would want is some smarmy no-it-all like you telling them how much they are "allowed" to make.

Your comments are the seeds that sow an end to the greatest country to ever be conceived and actually realized. *note I didn't say perfect.

So get off of your high horse and work hard and you might understand.


By Pythias on 9/25/2009 5:44:22 PM , Rating: 1
I all for net neutrality, but if Obama's version of it is anything like his version of government transparency...look out.


By Lerianis on 9/26/2009 1:06:12 AM , Rating: 2
Uh, the only thing Obama is doing is exactly what George W. Bush Jr. did, but to a lesser degree than he did.
I think you should have bashed on George W. Bush Jr. back when he was in office before you can bash Obama.


By iFX on 9/25/2009 10:06:01 AM , Rating: 3
You're an idiot.


By JohnnyCNote on 9/25/2009 10:33:52 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You're an idiot.


Boy, you sure know how to present an opposing viewpoint! Who cares about writing a decent rebuttal when all you need to do is post a three word ad hominem attack?


By iFX on 9/25/2009 11:03:17 PM , Rating: 2
I don't argue with trolls, flamers and idiots, I call them out and move on.


Republicans and Net Neutrallity.
By greylica on 9/24/09, Rating: -1
RE: Republicans and Net Neutrallity.
By FITCamaro on 9/24/09, Rating: -1
RE: Republicans and Net Neutrallity.
By MadMan007 on 9/24/2009 4:43:40 PM , Rating: 5
Stop posting from work so much. Since you work for a government contractor I'm the one paying you so get back to work.


By JohnnyCNote on 9/24/2009 6:09:03 PM , Rating: 2
He works??? From his post I thought he was some kid at middle school . . .


By FITCamaro on 9/25/2009 1:33:40 AM , Rating: 2
I have free time when building software and running scripts since I can't do anything till they finish.


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