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Print 93 comment(s) - last by Technomage.. on Aug 12 at 12:49 PM

LHC will only operate at half power to try to detect problems earlier

The Large Hadron Collider may usher in a new era of particle physics as the world's most powerful particle accelerator.  However, the LHC has also been the victim of numerous delays, ever since its launch last September failed. 

At launch an electrical fault between two of the magnets reportedly caused an arc of electricity, which in turn triggered a helium leak and explosion.  As a result, the proton tube was contaminated with soot, and the magnets were broken off from their mountings.  Months of repairs revealed more leaks in the vacuum of the insulating layer surrounding the proton tube.

Now the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN has declared that the repairs are done.  States CERN in a press release, "[Tests] will initially run at an energy of 3.5 TeV per beam when it starts up in November this year.  This news comes after all tests on the machine's high-current electrical connections were completed last week [the week of July 27], indicating that no further repairs are necessary for safe running."

Still, the restart represents caution on CERN's part -- 3.5 TeV is only half of the beam's full intended operational power.  States CERN Director General Rolf Heuer, "We've selected 3.5 TeV to start because it allows the LHC operators to gain experience [with] running the machine safely while opening up a new discovery region for the experiments."

There remain concerns about whether the device is capable of running at full power.  Describes CERN:

Following the incident of [Sept. 19, 2008] that brought the LHC to a standstill [due to a faulty magnet connection], testing has focused on the 10,000 high-current superconducting electrical connections like the one that led to the fault. These consist of two parts: the superconductor itself, and a copper stabilizer that carries the current in case the superconductor warms up and stops superconducting, a so-called quench. In their normal superconducting state, there is negligible electrical resistance across these connections, but in a small number of cases abnormally high resistances have been found in the superconductor. These have been repaired. However, there remain a number of cases where the resistance in the copper stabilizer connections is higher than it should be for running at full energy.

However, CERN also says that it has tested and repaired a large number of these faulty copper connections.  It says that the final two sectors it tested revealed no abnormalities.  Nonetheless, after all the headaches, it plans to throttle up the 17-mile long accelerator loop slowly, just in case there's still undetected problems.



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RE: better safe than sorry
By quiksilvr on 8/10/2009 12:37:39 PM , Rating: 3
I know that this is an ongoing gag, but in all seriousness, do you have any idea how much energy would be required to create a black hole big enough to take out the planet? TeVs aren't gonna do it!


RE: better safe than sorry
By SPOOFE on 8/10/2009 12:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
Any black hole created would probably go unnoticed. Its event horizon would be so small and gravitationally negligible that it would be nigh miraculous if it ever sucked in just a single atom before the sun burns out of hydrogen.


RE: better safe than sorry
By SublimeSimplicity on 8/10/2009 1:06:17 PM , Rating: 5
Nuts...

I was planning on using this micro black holes to put Dyson out of the vacuum business. Not only would it not lose suction as it filled (as Dyson claims), it would actually have better suction... and be cordless to boot.


RE: better safe than sorry
By Alexstarfire on 8/10/2009 1:17:50 PM , Rating: 2
Can a black hole be moved though?


RE: better safe than sorry
By Spuke on 8/10/2009 2:26:54 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Can a black hole be moved though?
Mine can.


RE: better safe than sorry
By Scabies on 8/10/2009 6:21:56 PM , Rating: 3
it would have mass, right?


RE: better safe than sorry
By Chemical Chris on 8/11/2009 10:46:28 AM , Rating: 2
The angle of the dangle is directly proportional to the mass of the ass if the heat of the meat remains constant.

Physicass 101.

ChemC


RE: better safe than sorry
By DopeFishhh on 8/11/2009 12:50:08 AM , Rating: 3
I remember reading an article about a scientist who working on the problem of how to deal with a black hole if it was actually created in the LHC.

His suggestion was that firing charged particles (electrons probably) into it would make it negatively charged, then surround it in a similarly negatively charged enclosure to prevent it from touching the sides. Then you fire it off into space.


RE: better safe than sorry
By camylarde on 8/11/2009 4:51:47 AM , Rating: 2
Assuming you know where exactly the black minihole is. Hitting such a small thing with particle beam must be either

A) hard like hell - then its ok, cause the hole is not interacting with the environment (much)
B) easy - then were doomed, cause it surely has started to suck up matter already, is growing and it probably is too late to act.


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrPoletski on 8/12/2009 4:21:28 AM , Rating: 2
Fortunately, the very theory that predicts the possibility (not certainty) of a black hole forming in the LHC also predicts that the black hole would instantly evaporate in a few femtoseconds.

sorry to spoil everyones speculative psuedo science fun;)

(and speculative psuedo science IS fun as well as a nicely overcomplicated term)


RE: better safe than sorry
By HotFoot on 8/11/2009 10:02:54 AM , Rating: 2
If you can possibly interact with a charged particle inside a black hole via electromagnetic force, then you've violated the whole event horizon principle.

Curious, even, that gravity itself escapes the event horizon. I don't know how this could be explained by any gravity-transmitting particle (graviton?) theory.


RE: better safe than sorry
By corduroygt on 8/10/2009 1:19:05 PM , Rating: 5
An even more important advantage would be that you'd never have to empty it out :)
Then of course your twin in a parallel universe would be wondering why his living room is suddenly covered with dust and small bits of trash.


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrBlastman on 8/10/2009 1:57:03 PM , Rating: 2
What would happen if you flushed Alligators and Crocodiles down a black hole... Would that be considered a Cosmic crime? I think this calls for another sequel to the age-old franchise. Alligator III: Get eaten again.


RE: better safe than sorry
By Pan Skrzetuski on 8/10/2009 6:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
As long as we do it before someone in the parallel universe figures out how to send anything nasty our way...


RE: better safe than sorry
By HotFoot on 8/11/2009 10:04:11 AM , Rating: 2
So THAT's what's been happening to my apartment. Damn cosmic twin...


RE: better safe than sorry
By lco45 on 8/10/2009 7:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
Because it sucks using gravity only, so for it to suck the dust hard enough to just make it float off the carpet it would need the mass of the earth.
Could get tricky pushing a vacuum cleaner with the mass of the earth.
Even trickier stopping it once you get it up to speed ;-)

Luke


RE: better safe than sorry
By HotFoot on 8/11/2009 10:13:01 AM , Rating: 2
Party pooper.

But it wouldn't need anywhere near the mass of the Earth, considering how much closer the black hole in your vacuum cleaner would be to the object than the centre of the Earth. It's like a small magnet that's really close has a bigger effect than a huge magnet many many miles away.

Anyway, the black hole would be constantly sucking in the atmosphere around it, creating a vaccum, and you'd be cleaning the old-fashioned way, with good ol' static pressure pushing dirt down the tube.

Yes, it's still ridiculous...


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrPoletski on 8/12/2009 4:24:50 AM , Rating: 2
umm, some remedial physics lessons reccomended.

1/r^2 dude.


RE: better safe than sorry
By Nobleman00 on 8/10/2009 2:11:06 PM , Rating: 2
1.21 JIGAWATTS!


RE: better safe than sorry
By SpaceJumper on 8/10/2009 4:49:58 PM , Rating: 2
The energy is equivalent to 120lb of TNT during an collision. Not all of the energy is inserted into the accelerating particles. What really goes wrong will not be the black hole, because the particles are getting so big during acceleration that the black hole will never be exposed.
The LHC puts in magnetic energy and what it gets out is the magnetic particles. You are what you eat basically.


RE: better safe than sorry
By Technomage on 8/11/2009 2:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry, but Maxwell's equation clearly show there are no magnetic particles. You could magnetize iron particles, but there are no magnetic charges.

I don't mean to be an ass about it, but let's not make up physics as we go. We'd be no better than the politicians, then.


RE: better safe than sorry
By SpaceJumper on 8/11/2009 6:10:39 PM , Rating: 2
I put it in a simple term so people can understand. The mass is accelerated to near the speed of light, E=mC^2. The energy is converted to mass, it is like an orange with a hyper thick skin. During collision, some of the orange skins will be separated from the orange and landed onto the detectors.
If the particles are not magnetic then the particles should not be responding to the magnetic fields. Are you implying that the Maxwell's equation is wrong.
LHC is still in the religious stage.


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrPoletski on 8/12/2009 4:41:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I put it in a simple term so people can understand.


Please don't, because it makes no sense!

quote:
The mass is accelerated to near the speed of light, E=mC^2. The energy is converted to mass, it is like an orange with a hyper thick skin.


Now the binding energy inside an atom uses the mass-energy equivelance equation you quoted... but in terms of the objects kinetic energy e=mc^2 has nothing to do with it.

quote:
During collision, some of the orange skins will be separated from the orange and landed onto the detectors.
If the particles are not magnetic then the particles should not be responding to the magnetic fields. Are you implying that the Maxwell's equation is wrong.
LHC is still in the religious stage.


About that magnetism thing. A particle can be magnetic only in that it has an electric charge distribution across itself and it is spinning. Iron atoms are all little magnets because the atom spins and the electrons around it do not form an even charge distribution across it. At any given time there may be more charge at one side of the atom than the other. Wan der waals bonds in metals uses this principle IIRC. Anyway, magnetism is created by the motion of an electric charge, nothing more and nothing less. Charged particles experience a force due to a magnetic field - directly proportional to their velocity - because when they move, they actually create their own magnetic field which interacts with the one that is, apparantly, impartng force on the charged particle.


RE: better safe than sorry
By bill3 on 8/11/2009 8:07:30 PM , Rating: 2
Are you the Technomage from MrCranky forums?

If so it's X-Man here.


RE: better safe than sorry
By Technomage on 8/12/2009 12:49:20 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, sorry.


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrPoletski on 8/11/2009 6:02:45 AM , Rating: 3
More to the point is how little an amount of energy there actually is in this beam?

Tera-electron volts sounds huge, but at electron volt is 1.6e-19 joules of energy. A 14TeV (i.e. 14x10^12) collision, the biggest this thing is supposed to be able produce is around 10^-6 joules. So a collision in the LHC can produce enough energy to power a 100w lightbulb for.... one hundred millionth of a second .

Or, more pertinantly, you'd have to 'save up' the energy in these collisions for 11,400 years. Eleven thousand four hundred years to get one hours worth of use out of a 100w light bulb.

LOL, AND PEOPLE THINK THE WORLD IS GOING TO END ROFLMAO!!!!


RE: better safe than sorry
By mattclary on 8/11/2009 8:07:13 AM , Rating: 2
A 5' woman who knows Judo doesn't expend much energy to take down a 6'6" man.


RE: better safe than sorry
By quiksilvr on 8/11/2009 2:19:23 PM , Rating: 2
Unless she goes for the balls.


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrPoletski on 8/12/2009 4:18:08 AM , Rating: 2
but could she take down a 50,000ft man?


RE: better safe than sorry
By MrPoletski on 8/12/2009 4:43:42 AM , Rating: 2
sorry, a five hundred million foot man..


RE: better safe than sorry
By Hammer1024 on 8/11/2009 4:51:57 PM , Rating: 2
Cosnic Rays in the wild hit up to 10^20th electron Volts; 10 with 20 zeroes behind it.

The Tevatron, outside of Chicago at Fermi Labs, hits around 10x12th eV (1 TeV) while the LHC, maxed out in it's launch configuration, is 7 TeV or 7x10^12 eV...

Last time I looked out the window, the earth hasn't been swallowed...

So if the LHC can generate black holes, they've been being generated over your head for the past few billion years or so.

I've got better things to worry about.


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