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Joe Biden is in Michigan today, reportedly to announce the first round of $2B in battery grants.  (Source: The Weekly Standard)
Grants bring good news to state's troubled economy

Michigan is among the states that has been hit hardest by the recession.  The government went to extreme measures to keep the state's economy from collapsing, including assuming majority ownership of GM and propping up Chrysler through bankruptcy.  Now the federal government is preparing to reach deeper into its pockets to help the state out even more.

Vice President Joe Biden is in Michigan today at the NextEnergy Center in Detroit.  He is reportedly going to announce the first round of $2B USD in Department of Energy battery grants.  The grants should boost the state's economy and help develop better electric vehicles, currently favored as the future of the car industry by the domestic automakers.

The federal government is also separately loaning money to battery manufacturers under the $25 billion Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing Incentive Program (ATVM).  Among the battery manufacturers that applied for that loan are A123 Systems, EnerDel, and Compact Power.  Thus far Ford, Nissan, and Tesla Motors received ATVM loans.  It is unknown who the grants will go to, but A123 Systems, EnerDel, and Compact Power seem like leading candidates.

Ed DeSeve, the president's special advisor on the stimulus program, had stated about on July 21, "I think you'll see over the next week or so ... some industrialization focus, for example, on the battery grants that are coming.  It makes sense to put those in places where there is productive working capacity -- people who can do the jobs. There are plants where the jobs can exist, and I think you are going to start to see more and more of that over time."

The ATVM loans must be repaid eventually by automakers and battery makers.  However, the DoE grants do not have to be repaid.  Michigan has also offered battery makers some big tax cuts in hopes of luring business into the state.

A limited amount of tickets to Mr. Biden's appearance have been offered to the public on a first-come-first-serve basis.



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Michigan
By mdogs444 on 8/5/2009 11:54:36 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Michigan has also offered battery makers some big tax cuts in hopes of luring business into the state.

Oh Michigan. The state that elected a crazy amount of corrupt democrat politicans throughout the state, most notably in Detroit, who lived high on tax payer dime and taxed the hell out of all the upper and upper-middle class people to buy votes from the poor.

Now look what happened...they can't even sell homes in the city there for $1 now. Oh, but NOW they want to lure companies back there to hire employees, after all the skilled non-union employees left from being overtaxed.

I see a bucking trend happening in major metro areas down the pipe. Seriously, who WOULD NOT want to live in this urban wasteland?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenthenderson/6883783...




RE: Michigan
By TSS on 8/5/2009 12:01:03 PM , Rating: 5
heh... your point brought back a fond memory ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g09GtnWdBjc


RE: Michigan
By MrBlastman on 8/5/2009 12:15:37 PM , Rating: 4
There is only one man for the job. There is only one man that can save Detroit. There is only one man that has the muscle to tackle this wasteland.

That man... is RoboCop.

"Drop em'!" "Thank you for your co-operation."

Perhaps he needs to clean up Congress - you say that they elected corrupt politicians - ALL politicians are corrupt.


RE: Michigan
By mikefarinha on 8/5/2009 5:16:18 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Perhaps he needs to clean up Congress - you say that they elected corrupt politicians - ALL politicians are corrupt.


I love this quote.

It is usually said by a Democrat.

When Republican's are in charge it is the Republican's that are corrupt. When Democrats are in charge then they're all corrupt.


RE: Michigan
By MrBlastman on 8/5/2009 11:40:21 PM , Rating: 2
Moderate with a Conservative bias. Try again. :)

(for the record I've never voted for a Democrat... yet. Well, scratch that, I *did* vote for Zell Miller as my Congressman once, but he isn't quite what you'd call a true Democrat.)


RE: Michigan
By mikefarinha on 8/6/2009 10:18:10 AM , Rating: 2
I never said you were a Democrat. I was just saying that it is usually said by Democrats.


RE: Michigan
By Hiawa23 on 8/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: Michigan
By sgw2n5 on 8/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: Michigan
By ClownPuncher on 8/5/2009 12:47:51 PM , Rating: 2
Descent was innovative, but it always made me dizzy if I used flight controls...

I love the guy in the picture you linked. I picture him speaking with a Russian accent, "Descent makes very many times Patriot, yes?".


RE: Michigan
By FITCamaro on 8/5/2009 1:20:43 PM , Rating: 2
My view on the birth certificate thing is, why hasn't he released it? What other president has ever not released their birth certificate and medical records? What reason does he have not to release it? He's spending a huge amount of money (probably tax payer money) in order to not release it. Wouldn't it be good for him politically to wave it in the face of the "birthers" (as they're being called) and say "here it is. you were wrong".

As far as Chavez, no I don't think a President of the United States should be shaking hands with a man who so vehemently hates America. Are you friendly with people who insult you or who spread lies about you?

As far as "communist". Look at the man's record and what he himself has said when not on the campaign trail (and even on it at times. You know who I am on this site. If I started saying I agreed with liberals, would you just trust my word blindly? Obama has said he favors a single payer system, a complete gun ban, wealth redistribution, etc. on more than one occassion. But we're supposed to believe him when he says he doesn't as he tries to get approval for his plans or tries to get elected?


RE: Michigan
By MrBlastman on 8/5/2009 1:31:36 PM , Rating: 2
The only way he'd ever get a complete gun ban is by starting another civil war first...

What I find funny is all the Liberals who are complaining and whining about people who make fun of their "great one." The tables have turned and they are just going to have to learn to take it. Those clown pictures - hilarious! They are as funny as the Bush chimp pictures.

The birth certificate _should_ be released. To not do so stinks of shenanigans.

The thing I find most amusing is that those who are offended by us who make fun of Obama and his administration - is that they are so quick to jump the gun and assume we are automatically Republicans. While some on here are, not all of us are. That doesn't mean we're a Democrat either. Some of us are moderates, like myself (though I have a conservative bias).

It is this two-party blindness which is keeping our country from being fixed.


RE: Michigan
By Hiawa23 on 8/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: Michigan
By MrBlastman on 8/5/2009 2:10:03 PM , Rating: 4
What has he pulled off?

Short of getting elected, he has done nothing other than spew hot air and spend money for the most part.

Results are amazing, accomplishments are amazing - just getting elected and put in the door, that isn't amazing.

Results talk, hot air just gets cold after a while...

That's the problem. Too many people think it is amazing he got elected when really, it wasn't so much. We had horrid candidates on either side - and most everyone agreed in America at the time that we were tired of Bush. I'll wait and see what he accomplishes before I even begin to use the word "amazing."


RE: Michigan
By ClownPuncher on 8/5/2009 2:14:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is this two-party blindness which is keeping our country from being fixed.


Absolutely. I'm tired of hearing both sides making shit up every day. It's like people can't get their news fix from real sources, they have to strap on their drool cup and watch Fox News and MSNBC so they can get more enraged.

Also, Obama's birth certificate is public record, you can even fill out a form requesting to see a copy. Don't make up garbage, focus on where he is actually failing rather than tripe.


RE: Michigan
By Spuke on 8/5/2009 3:32:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Also, Obama's birth certificate is public record, you can even fill out a form requesting to see a copy.
I thought he closed his birth records?


RE: Michigan
By Dorkyman on 8/5/2009 5:07:59 PM , Rating: 1
There is the ORIGINAL birth certificate, and there is a MODERN VERSION of the original. All the Messiah supporters say "he has released his birth certificate" but they are refering to the MODERN VERSION. The original exists, locked up in Hawaii. It makes me extremely curious as to why Messiah has gone out of his way to hide the original, as well as locking down numerous other documents (school transcripts and such) pertaining to his earlier life. His very actions make people suspicious. He could instantly defuse the criticism by releasing those documents--yet he won't.

A fascinating situation for a man who campaigned on "transparency."


RE: Michigan
By nunya on 8/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: Michigan
By MrPoletski on 8/6/2009 6:38:54 AM , Rating: 3
Messiah? where the hell did that come from?

quote:
He could instantly defuse the criticism by releasing those documents--yet he won't.


So could the birthers, by shutting the hell up.

You think Obamas parents put announcements in the local papers about his birth over there just in case their son decided to run for president in forty years time?

What planet are you on?

And what the hell is wrong with the modern version of his birth certificate?

ARE YOU SAYING IT'S FORGED?

And.. being as his mother was a Us citizen, doesn't being her son entitle him to US citizenship even if he were born in Spain, Germany AND France?


RE: Michigan
By Spuke on 8/5/2009 5:55:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I thought he closed his birth records?
Don't rate me down for asking a question. Did he not lock up his records?


RE: Michigan
By MrPoletski on 8/6/2009 6:44:16 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Don't rate me down for asking a question. Did he not lock up his records?


No he didn't, it is no more difficult to get ahold of Obamas birth certificate than it is to get ahold of anyone elses.

You need: a) their permission.

It's called data protection and I'd hope it was enforced, otherwise any Nigerian scammer can request your birth certificate and assume your identity.
I think Obama thinks this issue is closed, having published all sorts of things to keep them happy I can only assume the rest of them would NEVER be happy.

Lets face it, even if Obama did release the very slip of paper that was typed on to certify his birth the day he was born these birthers would STILL not be happy, claiming forgery


RE: Michigan
By Spuke on 8/6/2009 2:43:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lets face it, even if Obama did release the very slip of paper that was typed on to certify his birth the day he was born these birthers would STILL not be happy, claiming forgery
I agree and I really think all of this is ridiculous.


RE: Michigan
By knutjb on 8/5/2009 4:01:54 PM , Rating: 1
The only copy released is the short version which has no legal relevance, it just say you were born, the LONG FORM which IS the only LEGAL birth certificate can only be released by the specific person, i.e. obama. I don't really care about this issue though obama is the one perpetuating this because he IS the only one who can release it this side of a court order. I think he is using it as a way to paint all Republicans and conservatives as loonies, when only a few really are.

As for
quote:
quote: It is this two-party blindness which is keeping our country from being fixed.


Wasn't obama supposed to part the sea so both sides could come together? No he hasn't, obama HAS said "we won" in a white house meeting with Republicans, so much for bi-partisanship from obama. If HR 3200 SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION doesn't disturb you I am truly baffled by your blindness and maybe you should take a look at http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html and tell me where obama's plan meshes up with it. I am biased against BOTH sides and want them to STOP spending us into collapse.

This battery silliness is insane spending to placate certain voting communities. I see the Dems as wanting to control my life, the Republicans as not wanting to control my life but occasionally giving in and failing to stop those wanting to control my life.

The most research conducted on batteries has been done by NASA. Why not continue that process through their normal budget instead of spending more of what we don't have.

Take your blinders off, read the Constitution, take few steps back and look at what is going on in front of you. If you like it spend some time in Europe to see if that is what you really want. I did and I don't. I came to my conclusion from listening to what the politicians are saying and reading the Constitution. The Constitution DOESN'T pick winners in society, it does what most countries don't, it provides a way to come from poverty and become wealthy through your own hard work, not through Robin Hood style "Social Justice".

I'm not a member of a "mob", I'm just a really pissed off citizen who has served my country and understand the relevance of it's place in the world.


RE: Michigan
By TomZ on 8/5/2009 4:55:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This battery silliness is insane spending to placate certain voting communities
I don't agree with that. I think that Obama wants to (a) spend a lot of money to try to stimulate the economy, and (b) push the industry toward "green" solutions to our energy challenges. While I think these ideas may be misguided, I believe these are the real motives, not the desire to placate certain groups of voters and/or corporate interests.


RE: Michigan
By knutjb on 8/5/2009 5:47:44 PM , Rating: 2
If one were trying to stimulate how come only 70B has been spent and 122B is in progress to magically be spent just before the 2010 elections? This is no way to fix an economy. The severe recession of 1920 didn't last long, government did nothing and the market corrected itself. The crash of 29 lasted for a DECADE because government spent like fools on everything and accomplished little except suppressing the economy.

Government spending doesn't work no matter who implements it. When the government tries to soften the blow of an economic down turn it will last longer and limit growth in the long run. Preventing the economic pain is a major factor in the fall of the USSR.

The market does a pretty good job in picking winners and losers, not Congress or the President. This recession was caused through a cumulative effect of limited controls on mortgages over 30 years. Banks are better at determining borrowers ability to pay back loans than Congress.

As for spending and where it went: http://www.propublica.org/special/maps-unemploymen...


RE: Michigan
By ClownPuncher on 8/5/2009 7:16:26 PM , Rating: 4
Actually the Great Depression had many factors working against the country and world economy.

One was the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, which was a form of protectionism, taxing the crap out of foreign goods which caused the world to tax our goods to death in response.

The Dust Bowl, soil erosion and farm collapses. Farmers couldn't even afford to eat the food they were barely able to grow.

Prohibition, cost the country $500 million a year or more just in tax revenue, not to mention jobs lost and Constitution/Bill of Rights being violated.

The problem with the New Deal was that in '37-'38, it created more goods than demand. This caused another, smaller economic downturn towards the end of that decade. Also, it grew the central government to never seen before sizes.


RE: Michigan
By MrPoletski on 8/6/2009 6:32:37 AM , Rating: 1
So why does this birth certificate matter at all?

Oh, what, because the constitution says he must be a US born citizen and we wouldn't want to break the constitution because that's really important?

good to know, where were you during the Bush years? where were all these birthers during the bush years?

Because being as you take your constitution so seriously, you'd have wanted Bush/Cheney impeached for his countless violations of your constitution, like lying to congress about Iraq, setting up secret departments without informing congress, illegally wiretapping, the list goes on.

I'm sure you'd want the fed abolished too, as there is preceisely zero remit in the US constitution to allow for its existance.. and remember, the US constitution defines what your government is ALLOWED to do, it does not define what it is NOT allowed to do (like the criminal justice system does).

The only, I repeat, ONLY reason this whole birth certificate rubbish exists is because they have a candidate in office they don't like and will do anything to try and get him out, no matter how silly.

The birthers argument has been thoroughly debunked. They even found local newspaper announcements of Obamas birth out there for christs sake.. but not, not convinced they try FORGING A KENYAN BIRTH CERTIFICATE. Are they in search of the truth? or are they just upset a black man got elected to office, or that a democrat got into office, you decide.


RE: Michigan
By isorfir on 8/5/2009 1:48:55 PM , Rating: 4
I don't understand why people think he HASN'T released it. How hard is it to google, I mean really?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_th...
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertific...


RE: Michigan
By sgw2n5 on 8/5/2009 2:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that his birth was mentioned in SEVERAL local newspapers, confirmed by the hospital records, the physicians records, and he has already released the exact same record of birth that all other previous presidents have.

The Birthers are right up there with 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

All of this nonsense started when Elvis shot Lincoln then went to his time machine under area 51 only to reappear in 1961 to kill Kennedy then poison Maralyn Monroe with secret Alien juice.


RE: Michigan
By MrBlastman on 8/5/2009 2:45:41 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for posting that. For some reason I never managed to hear that bit o' news.


RE: Michigan
By FITCamaro on 8/5/09, Rating: -1
RE: Michigan
By mdogs444 on 8/5/2009 3:19:25 PM , Rating: 1
Im not so much concerned with the birth certificate because its highly unlikely it will ever be put to rest - its too late now. But I'd like to know whether his citizenship was ever rescinded when he went to Indonesia. I do not believe you can even be a dual citizen in order to be President.

Either way, I'm much more afraid of his policies than his background. He's here now. We've got much better chance of stopping him and putting the brakes on for the next 3 years than you do getting rid of him.


RE: Michigan
By FITCamaro on 8/5/2009 3:39:07 PM , Rating: 1
Pretty much. I'm far more concerned with what he's doing than where he came from at the moment.


RE: Michigan
By Spuke on 8/5/2009 3:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Either way, I'm much more afraid of his policies than his background.
I'm more afraid of this constant two party BS than Obama's background. I think it poisons objectivity and creates a near religious following of its supporters. Facts are out the door! If the man wasn't a US citizen, it would have been brought to light BEFORE he was a candidate for President. Do you really think the Republican party would sit on that? Do you think the ENTIRE Democratic Party would sit on that? This debate about his birth is ridiculous. It's as crazy as the people that think we've never been to the moon.


RE: Michigan
By xRyanCat on 8/5/2009 5:15:00 PM , Rating: 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboa...

There you go. You're own official Kenyan birth certificate. (And yes, that's identical to his "Kenyan birth certificate" that was released.) Just look at the certificate and here are the flaws:

quote:

Kenya was a Dominion the date this certificate was allegedly issued and would not become a republic for 8 months.

Mombasa belonged to Zanzibar when Obama was born, not Kenya.

Obama's father's village would be nearer to Nairobi, not Mombasa.

The number 47O44-- 47 is Obama's age when he became president, followed by the letter O (not a zero) followed by 44--he is the 44th president.

EF Lavender is a laundry detergent.


I'd like you to name one president that publically released their birth certificate. And if we're going to nitpic the resolution that would allow McCain to even become President of the United States was passed 11 months after he was born. John McCain was born outside of the US controlled Panama Zone. But the House passed a bill with fuzzy-warm words saying he was a Natural born citizen (the Senate did the same for Obama) and no one made a big deal about it.

Do you not think that the CIA and all these other agencies wouldn't do background checks on candidates for Presidency? Do you think that this is all some big conspiracy? Lets see... Someone is born in Kenya... They contact the health agencies on a "fringe state" of the US and tell them to make a birth announcement in the local papers (In Hawaii at the time, all birth announcements were from the gov), then they ship him over there an wait 40 years, and here's the easy part, then all he has to win is the election for President of the United States of America! Now I see the brilliant plan to undermine the country!

The Governor of Hawaii has gone on record to say that Obama was born in her state, the state officials have made announcements saying he is. Various judges including U.S. district judges have dismissed all cases dealing with this issue.

The issue is dead, stick a fork in it done. Fine something else to troll about.


RE: Michigan
By Spuke on 8/5/2009 6:19:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Do you not think that the CIA and all these other agencies wouldn't do background checks on candidates for Presidency?
But see the CIA is in on "this" too. What had happened was the Democrats in the CIA had a secret program, Project HNIC, whose purpose was to hide the true birthplace of Obama by kidnapping all of Hawaii's government officials and doctors and replacing them with pro-Obama liberalpolarbearsolarcarbontaxforeignoilpriusbbq's.


RE: Michigan
By smitty3268 on 8/5/2009 8:05:38 PM , Rating: 3
This has all been debunked by that liberal rag, the Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240529702046...

The Cliff Notes:
What he released IS the official and legal birth certificate of Hawaii, even if they call it something else. It would be accepted by your employer, and by any court in the country. Hawaii won't even release anything else to normal citizens, the only reason Obama might even be able to get the original is because he's the president of the USA and it's unlikely some civil worker would say no to him.

The states Republican governor has vouched for it. Do you really expect people to believe that a Republican is lying to protect Obama?

There's seriously much more to support the idea that the moon landing was faked than there is for this. It's no different than all the liberal conspiracy theorists who think Bush and the CIA were behind 9/11 and the conservatives who think Clinton murdered Vince Foster.

quote:
Then there's the whole recent Kenyan birth certificate that just came out. You saying people are willing to risk fraud in order to frame the man?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!! Ok, really? You're saying there's not a single person in the whole country who would go into photoshop and whip up a fake document real quick? I think the Daily Show has already done that, in fact. Remember the whole CBS/Rather-gate thing with the faked documents about Bush? There are always wackos out there that will try to kill the President, no matter what kind of politics he follows. You really think they're too afraid to print out a piece of paper?

quote:
Nor did he really release any personal information as every other presidential candidate has ever done in recent history

Well, he release 2 full books full. The only stuff I can recall where McCain did put out more was the health stuff you mentioned, and it's self-obvious that someone running to be the 2nd-oldest president ever would need to release more health information than one of the youngest ever candidates. Sure, Obama smokes, but if you do even a basic check of mortality rates, you see that Obama is going to live far, far longer than McCain barring some crazy stroke or something that comes out of nowhere.


RE: Michigan
By JohnnyCNote on 8/5/2009 8:58:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Obama released a couple pages. Why? Especially when the man is a smoker and has even admitted to taking and dealing drugs.


How is being a smoker in any way connected to the rest of this paragraph?

When did Obama admit to "dealing drugs"? What drugs did he allegedly deal? Where is a link to support your accusation?


RE: Michigan
By JohnnyCNote on 8/6/2009 4:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
No answer, eh FIT? Why am I not surprised?


RE: Michigan
By knutjb on 8/5/2009 5:16:14 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, there are TWO types of birth certificates. One for LIVE BIRTH, short form, and LEGAL BIRTH, long form, with ALL details signifying a LEGAL birth. The long form is the only one that counts, the short form goes in the scrapbook with your baby pictures.

Your examples are the short form "certificate of live birth" my kids have those too, signatures, raised seal and all, but I had to get the long form to get them a passport. Yes, my new copy of my certificate is a standardized computer generated long form with more information than what is shown in your examples. Even the Gov of Hawaii has said the one released is the short form and says this is silly, I agree, it is silly.

If you try to get a passport with a "short form" you WILL be sent away because it's not a LEGAL DOCUMENT, period. I'm sure he has a passport.

I only see this as obama playing a game of distraction, usually if there is one there is the other, but not always, so just show it and be done with it. What is there to hide? So much for transparency... On to the games!


RE: Michigan
By JohnnyCNote on 8/5/2009 7:55:01 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
If you try to get a passport with a "short form" you WILL be sent away because it's not a LEGAL DOCUMENT, period. I'm sure he has a passport.


They accepted the short form when I got my passport a couple of years ago . . .


RE: Michigan
By smitty3268 on 8/5/2009 8:12:42 PM , Rating: 2
Not in Hawaii. There's only one, that's backed by the full legal force of the state, which means it is accepted everywhere, by everyone.


RE: Michigan
By sgw2n5 on 8/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: Michigan
By bissimo on 8/5/2009 2:58:16 PM , Rating: 1
Get informed about what's going on before you post. Oh and listening to Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck 24/7 doesn't count as being informed.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_th...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-oba...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/06...

As far as Communism goes, what about police forces, fire departments and the armed forces? These are all services that we, as a SOCIETY or COMMUNITY (same roots as Socialism or Communism, just so you know) bankroll for the service of everyone. These are services that the government provides for everyone because you can die without them. It's the same logic for health care. You're not asked to cover a $3000 deductible before the fire dept puts out the fire at your house, or a cop stops the guy trying to shoot you. So why is that OK before you'll be allowed to enter an O.R.?

Anyone that thinks America isn't already a socialist society should wake up.


RE: Michigan
By FITCamaro on 8/5/2009 3:22:34 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Oh and listening to Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck 24/7 doesn't count as being informed.


Nor do I listen to them.

quote:
As far as Communism goes, what about police forces, fire departments and the armed forces?


Here's a paddle. Go beat that dead horse some more. Those are local run services paid for by local taxes. They are not handled by the federal government. There is absolutely nothing communist or socialist about local emergency services designed to protect the people from crime or disasters. Socialized medicine has nothing to do with them either. The federal government has no right to tell someone they have to pay for a service like health care when they do not want it. It has no authority to institute such a program either.

quote:
You're not asked to cover a $3000 deductible before the fire dept puts out the fire at your house, or a cop stops the guy trying to shoot you. So why is that OK before you'll be allowed to enter an O.R.?


Have you ever even been to an emergency room or in an operating room? I have this year. I had my appendix removed. When I showed up for emergency surgery (I walked in because it hadn't burst yet), did they ask me for anything? No. They admitted me in 5 minutes, and performed the surgery a few hours later. It was not until I was about to leave when I was approached about whether I could even pay for the services I received. And even if you cannot pay, they cannot do anything to you. Emergency services cannot be put on your credit report. They cannot repossess your belongings. All they can do is have a collection agency pester you. I had a friend owe $10,000 for a one night stay. He had no money and wasn't able to pay and never did.

You have no clue what you're talking about.


RE: Michigan
By Steve1981 on 8/5/2009 5:04:12 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
As far as Communism goes, what about police forces, fire departments and the armed forces? These are all services that we, as a SOCIETY or COMMUNITY (same roots as Socialism or Communism


That socialism and communism sound like the words community and society is neither here nor there. Both tend to be abysmal ideas in practice; and no, citizens paying taxes for law and order, national defense, and a modicum of protection against major disasters is not considered communism or socialism.

Here is the difference: socialism and communism both involve state ownership over the means of production and distribution of goods. OK, certainly as per your example, "the state", courtesy of taxing the populace, bankrolls and is in charge of our national defense for example. However, the difference between this and them being in charge of producing automobiles is that "national defense" is not a good or service that individuals can purchase. It is nothing less than an essential bit of framework that is required for a society to exist in any meaningful manner.

As far as nationalized healthcare: I'd say you'd be on your strongest ground claiming that much like fires, diseases don't tend to stay in one place for long nor are they particularly concerned whether they destroy a rich man or a poor man, a black man or a white man. As such, some measure of public health system isn't an awful idea.

At the same time though, I can't say I'm inclined to bankroll somebody's coronary bypass because they have an unhealthy obsession with eating at McDonalds and hatred of exercise.


RE: Michigan
By Yawgm0th on 8/5/09, Rating: 0
RE: Michigan
By FITCamaro on 8/5/2009 3:45:01 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2008/blog/2008/05/...

Really? Over 1100 pages is extremely restrictive?


RE: Michigan
By Yawgm0th on 8/6/2009 12:58:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
About 20 reporters-- including CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta and NBC's Dr. Nancy Snyderman -- were allowed to enter a room at the resort in the back of the Alchemy restaurant. We were allowed in at 7:30 and given three hours to review the records and take notes.
Three hours for 1,173 pages is very restrictive.

Not that I have a problem with McCain releasing or not releasing his medical records. I think they're of minimal relevance, and the 2008 election is over. My point is that candidates are generally not expected to do silly things like prove citizenship to a few crazies out there. Most presidents have not provided the public with medical records or birth certificates, hence proving your point as ridiculous and uninformed as it was.


RE: Michigan
By FITCamaro on 8/5/2009 3:48:23 PM , Rating: 2
And there were liberal groups who questioned McCain's ability to run for President as well since he was born in Panama on a military installation. When they did, he released his birth certificate.


RE: Michigan
By Yawgm0th on 8/6/2009 1:01:20 AM , Rating: 2
And we haven't heard about it since. Obama has been president for more than half a year and these people are still making noise. It is ridiculous.

That said, I won't deny that insanity and stupidity have nothing to do with political ideology. There are crazies on both sides.

I guess I've come to expect you to be disagreeable, FIT, not quite crazy. Birther territory is crazy territory. Tread lightly.


RE: Michigan
By MrPoletski on 8/6/2009 6:18:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
As far as "communist". Look at the man's record and what he himself has said when not on the campaign trail (and even on it at times. You know who I am on this site. If I started saying I agreed with liberals, would you just trust my word blindly? Obama has said he favors a single payer system, a complete gun ban, wealth redistribution, etc. on more than one occassion. But we're supposed to believe him when he says he doesn't as he tries to get approval for his plans or tries to get elected?


An important thing to realise is that none of those things make Obama a communist.

As for wealth redistribution, nicely worded way of making taxation sound like a communist policy. There is no taxation in a communist state, after all, how can you be taxed on something that your dont have?

Wealth is already distributed between people all around your country. It drains out the bottom of your poor via inflation (controlled by the fed) and comes back in the top via the fed... (but nobody knows where this money goes, except the fed). You also get taxed and those taxes already go on to pay for things people can't otherwise afford.

All Obama has done is adjust the parameters of the redistribution equation to favour the middle class more. He hasn't increased or decreased the budget at all, therefore there is no more and no less wealth redistribution going on under his leadership.

Now bailouts are another story, but whatever president you elected would have done that because it was neccesary and it appears to be working.


RE: Michigan
By KashGarinn on 8/6/2009 6:57:02 AM , Rating: 2
They did.. it's been corroborated everywhere, they even dug up the daily newspaper from the day of his birth, and it clearly congratulates the family on his birth (like it usually did back then)
- But you carry on complaining about a non-issue which has been spoon-fed to you by people who want to manipulate you.


RE: Michigan
By phantom505 on 8/6/2009 8:35:17 AM , Rating: 1
You're such a friggin' predictable Libritard.

Find me an elected Republican that will actually go on record saying he's not American. Just one.

Orly Taitz is so full of shit her house is an open sewer. She even tried to invent a birth certificate that was laughably fake.

He did do the "here it is", you just won't believe accepted practice. My certificate is now electronic when I got a new one. I thought you were all about the tech advances (except when you aren't).

Even the Gov of Hawaii who supported McCain said he was born there. And yes, it's all a conspiracy that two different newspapers "planted" evidence in 1961 in the event that a half black man might be elected president and it becomes relevant.

I wish all you Libratard IT people would just go away. Your self importance is amazing. The reality is we don't need you at all.


RE: Michigan
By Digimonkey on 8/5/2009 2:17:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Remember, Descent is the highest form of patriotic! http://www.flickr.com/photos/unpossibles/346224619...


I unfortunately recognize the building in the background. :(


RE: Michigan
By mikefarinha on 8/5/2009 5:21:07 PM , Rating: 2
"Descent is the highest form of patriotism" is the most famous quote never to be said by Thomas Jefferson.

Usually spouted off by $5/hour liberal college student astroturfers.


RE: Michigan
By Steve1981 on 8/5/2009 5:28:04 PM , Rating: 2
Dissent...


RE: Michigan
By Jonh68 on 8/5/2009 1:20:27 PM , Rating: 2
Bush had several clown pictures circulating too. Every president goes through this. Bush was hated too.


RE: Michigan
By Nfarce on 8/5/2009 3:42:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not sure what to make of the article, as it sounds like a decent plan if it helps the State, but all this Obama/Administration hate you see across the internet would be hilarious if it weren't scary


It amazes me is how short of a memory people have. How soon we have forgotten the hate that was put on Bush for the last 8 years, and need I remind you of an independent film award that went to some nut who made a movie about Bush being assassinated (not a character playing president, but BUSH). Let me know if you see anything like that coming at our current president. [chirp][chirp][chirp][chirp]

In fact, what also amazes me is the current hate for Sarah Palin, the Tea Party protesters, and now it seems people who actually stand up in these so-called Town Hall meetings and DARE question Obama (or Congress for that matter). Top that off with the vitriol against the Right in general by the Left in this nation, and you have a toxic political atmosphere. Lurking on Democratunderground, Daily Kos, and the Huffington Post is eye opening.

No, it's not scary nor hate. It's called being the "loyal opposition" as the Bush haters said. The Bush people put up with it for 8 years - now the shoe is on the other foot. And I won't even bring up the record deficit spending in 8 months currently which towers over 8 years of Bush deficit spending.


RE: Michigan
By mikefarinha on 8/5/2009 5:23:33 PM , Rating: 2
The funny thing I noticed when watching the people shouting down the politician's look like normal people. Unlike the liberal protesters that all look like college students.


RE: Michigan
By bobsmith1492 on 8/5/2009 12:25:32 PM , Rating: 2
Michigan needs more than tax breaks; they need a major business tax overhaul.

Businesses in Michigan have to pay tax yearly on all capital goods they own based on the amount it would cost to buy that equipment new NOW. I would guess the original goal was to prevent companies from automating everything, protecting the workers. Yes, unions are strong in Detroit which unfortunately sets the tone for the rest of the state politically.

So, any high-tech manufacturing will naturally avoid Michigan; the more advanced the manufacturing, the more (massively expensive) equipment is required.

I'm afraid battery manufacturers will need more than a tax break to move to Michigan.


RE: Michigan
By Mr772 on 8/5/2009 12:37:28 PM , Rating: 2
Anyone who has a mind can clearly see your getting basically the same thing from liberals as you are from conservatives.

Being extremely pro-conservative or pro-liberal is plainly stupid.

You are a sheep either way. You are acting like there have never been any corrupt republicans in office. It amazes me how blindly stupid some people are.


RE: Michigan
By sgw2n5 on 8/5/2009 12:42:33 PM , Rating: 1
Well, to be fair...

When a conservative has a scandal it usually involves teenage boys or maintaining a "wide" stance in a men's bathroom stall.


RE: Michigan
By mdogs444 on 8/5/2009 12:43:40 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You are acting like there have never been any corrupt republicans in office.

Nonsense. I never said such a thing. However, you need to realize that metro areas and states with high unemployment, high taxes, and high minority populations are dominate by Democrats. There is no disputing that.

That' precisely why you're more inclined to hear about a dirty democrat politician from Detroit or Chicago than you a republican from some skant town in Arkansas.


RE: Michigan
By Murst on 8/5/2009 1:00:51 PM , Rating: 1
I guess I don't follow your logic...

By your logic, one or more of the following leads to "dirty democrat politicians"...

1. high unemployment
2. high taxes
3. high minority populations

What exactly do you find in those factors that leads you to that conclusion?

I was always under the impression that the likelyhood of corrupt politicians is about equal across party lines. The fact that most of them come from large cities (vs places like Arkansas or the Dakotas) is because there is a much larger number of these politicians in those areas vs the remote, rural areas. Thus the probability of a corrupt politician coming from a major metro area is much greater, simply due to the fact that there is more of them, whether they be democrat, republican, or something else.


RE: Michigan
By MrPeabody on 8/5/2009 1:42:08 PM , Rating: 2
I think you're doing mdogs444's point a disservice by mixed up the cause and effect in your interpretation.

quote:
By your logic, one or more of the following leads to "dirty democrat politicians"...

1. high unemployment
2. high taxes
3. high minority populations


I think the point was not that 1, 2, or 3 leads to "dirty democrat politicians". I think mdogs444 was leaning more towards the idea that "dirty democrat politicians" lead to 1, 2, or 3.

I'm not sure how correct that is. At the very least, I'm sure it's not nearly that simple. However, there certainly are quite a few examples that fit this particular bill.


RE: Michigan
By mdogs444 on 8/5/2009 3:01:39 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for elaborating for me Mr Peabody. I'm glad someone was able to understand what I was trying to say.


RE: Michigan
By knutjb on 8/5/2009 4:47:33 PM , Rating: 2
I saw it too and to provide another example: look at California, same issues, different industries. That state has been controlled by democrats in the legislative branch, the ones who write the laws, since before Reagan was governor. Though Reagan left a massive surplus for Jerry Brown to squander away on ineffective social programs.

Their over-taxing has sent their industrial base either to other states, i.e. Nevada and Texas, and other countries eliminating those who pay the states bills at an alarming rate, leaving it for those who don't. If illegal aliens paid so much in taxes, California would be drowning in money, not debt.


RE: Michigan
By Ammohunt on 8/5/2009 2:00:56 PM , Rating: 3
You are confusing Conservative with Republican they are often mutually exclusive. Most conservatives are Republican only becasue the party leaned towards basic conservative values in the past. its not about being pro-conservative or pro-liberal its about having a core set of American Values and subscribing to an ideology that makes sense to you. Something the current Democrats(neo-socialist party) and to a lesser extent the Republicans have forgotten. No matter what political party exists i will always be a conservative


RE: Michigan
By TomZ on 8/5/2009 2:27:14 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Oh Michigan. The state that elected a crazy amount of corrupt democrat politicans throughout the state, most notably in Detroit ... they can't even sell homes in the city there for $1 now. Oh, but NOW they want to lure companies back there to hire employees, after all the skilled non-union employees left from being overtaxed.

I see a bucking trend happening in major metro areas down the pipe. Seriously, who WOULD NOT want to live in this urban wasteland?

Michigan != Detroit, dumbass.


RE: Michigan
By mdogs444 on 8/5/2009 2:55:29 PM , Rating: 1
Ahh yes, I totally neglected the other parts of Michigan that are prospering lol.

Tom, just because you're from there, don't try to make it sound any better than it is. I'm from Ohio, and we don't have it much better than you - well, at least besides our college football teams.


RE: Michigan
By TomZ on 8/5/2009 3:39:41 PM , Rating: 3
The point is that Michigan as a whole is a fine state. Sure, Detroit is in a decades-long decline, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the state is filled with political corruption or is an urban wasteland.

And really, I don't understand why you would choose to make such childish comments in the first place.


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