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Want to hash my hard drive? Come back with a warrant

Federal agents seeking to generate MD5 hashes from files on a suspect’s hard drive must now obtain a warrant before doing so, says a Pennsylvania U.S. District Court, as such an act constitutes a government search protected by the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

The case in question, United States v.Robert Crist, involves accusations of child pornography and a warrantless search conducted against the defendant’s hard drive. In the case, a federal agent generated an MD5 hash – a unique numeric signature of a file – of every file and then compared them to a national child pornography database.

How the computer ended up in authorities’ hands is a convoluted sequence of events. As part of a forced eviction in September 2005, Crist’s possessions were removed from his home; most of his belongings were placed on the curb for trash pickup, while a friend of the workers who removed Crist’s belongings – Seth Hipple of the East Pennsboro, Pennsylvania township – took possession of his computer. Upon rifling through the computer’s hard drive to see what “[he] could delete,” Hipple finds child pornography and, in a panic, deletes it before calling police.

Hipple later turned the computer over to authorities; a short while after Crist reported the computer as stolen. With this knowledge, the East Pennsboro Township Police Department opened an investigation and the detective assigned to the case, Michael Cotton, started by imaging Crist’s hard drive (among other things) and then generating MD5 hashes of the files stored in that image.

According to court documents (PDF), after using forensic tool EnCase’s “hash value analysis” against the image of Crist’s hard drive, computer forensics Special Agent David Buckwash “switch[ed] [EnCase] to gallery view,” for a heads-up display of every picture the software could find – allowing him to “mark every picture believed notable, whether it be child pornography or … something specific.” Buckwash ended up finding “almost 1600 images” of known or suspected child pornography.

U.S. District Chief Judge Yvette Kane dismissed the government’s arguments that “no search occurred” because agents “didn’t look at any files” – referring to the hash analysis, not the subsequent use of gallery view – and found that the “running of hash values” against either the physical hard drive or an image of it to be a search protected by the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits government search and seizure of private property without a warrant:

“Computers are composed of many compartments, among them a “hard drive,” which in turn is composed of many “platters,” or disks. To derive the hash values of Crist’s computer, the Government physically removed the hard drive from the computer, created a duplicate image of the hard drive without physically invading it, and applied the EnCase program to each compartment, disk, file, folder, and bi t… By subjecting the entire computer to a hash value analysis—every file, internet history, picture, and “buddy list” became available for Government review. Such examination constitutes a search.”

Moreover, writes the Court, since the government search was “different in character” from Hipple’s search, it cannot be classified as an extension of the search conducted privately by Hipple.

Orin Kerr, a blogger, computer crimes and criminal law specialist, and professor at George Washington University Law School, writes that U.S. v. Crist sets new precedent in an area of technology law that has, so far, gone untested by courts.

According to Kerr, however, Kane’s verdict was not completely clear: “It's somewhat hard to know what to make of the decision,” he writes. “Which stage was the search — the creating the duplicate? The running of the hash? I don't think it matters very much to this case, because the agent[s] who got the positive hit on the hashes didn't then get a warrant.”

With the ever-rising usage of computers and encryption technology, U.S. courts are quickly finding themselves in untested areas of the law governing citizens’ rights and technology. In another child pornography case, involving a laptop with an encrypted hard drive, defendant Sebastien Boucher was very nearly forced to divulge his encryption key after complying with a U.S. border search. A federal court eventually quashed a grand jury subpoena served to Boucher last November, citing his Fifth Amendment right to protect himself from self-incrimination. That decision is currently under appeal.



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duh!
By Nik00117 on 10/29/2008 9:17:41 AM , Rating: 2
If ploice ever wanted to search anything of mine my first response is "wheres the warrant". IDC if they wanna see whats on my PC or not, they need a warrant if they don't like it i'll have it taken care of later.

This should mean this sicko goes unpunished, because ploice didn't get a warrant first. Therefore the evidence which was found is now inadmissible in court. Meaning the entire case is shot to shit.




RE: duh!
By Spivonious on 10/29/08, Rating: -1
RE: duh!
By mdogs444 on 10/29/08, Rating: 0
RE: duh!
By eyebeeemmpawn on 10/29/08, Rating: -1
RE: duh!
By Indianapolis on 10/29/08, Rating: 0
RE: duh!
By GaryJohnson on 10/29/2008 1:51:24 PM , Rating: 2
Bush's first presidential campaign received $1.14 million from Enron. That's the only tie I can find. It's a pretty big tie, they were one of his top 10 contributors.


RE: duh!
By Spivonious on 10/29/2008 10:24:17 AM , Rating: 2
Do you really think the Enron execs are sitting in jail next to Bubba?

A better punishment would be to take all of the money they made and give it to the Enron employees who got screwed.

If you arrest all of the people creating the child porn, then no one would be able to look at it.


RE: duh!
By mdogs444 on 10/29/08, Rating: 0
RE: duh!
By Gzus666 on 10/29/2008 11:09:32 AM , Rating: 2
No, then they will just change the way they go about it. I highly doubt the people making the stuff do it only for other people.


RE: duh!
By mdogs444 on 10/29/2008 11:13:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I highly doubt the people making the stuff do it only for other people.

Who said anything about that?

I specifically said, in a previous post up above, that the people who create this stuff do it to make a buck, albeit illegally. Its hard to make people stop doing things when there is a market and people willing to pay for it. If you start taking away the people who are willing to pay for and look at it, the profits start to dwindle thus making the market less attractive.


RE: duh!
By mindless1 on 10/29/2008 10:40:29 PM , Rating: 2
I'd speculate that some do it because they're just sick, not because it's some grand business venture. Abusing a child tends to be about control, not money (unless it's child labor in general).

Besides that, if you get rid of new content producers you still have all the old content and let's face it, pron isn't so hard to find for free. Maybe not child pron, I confess I've never looked for any so I don't know but wasn't that the excuse given as to why some ISPs were cutting out usenet access, that it was being posted (presumably, free to anyone who otherwise had usenet access)?


RE: duh!
By myhipsi on 10/30/2008 9:33:17 AM , Rating: 2
The law rarely deters people from commiting crime. Usually it's the persons conscience, ethics, and morals that does so. When most people do commit a crime, they don't anticipate getting caught, so the law is not as much a factor as you might think.


RE: duh!
By tmouse on 10/30/2008 9:49:31 AM , Rating: 2
I disagree, how exactly does one separate ethics and morals from the rules of the social structure (ie: laws)? The two mutually affect each other. Laws clearly shape a society’s ethics and morals affect laws. Just because people weigh the gains to be gotten more than the effects of the possible punishment in favor of the gain does not mean laws are not a deterrent. I think many people would indulge in this type of behavior except for the fear of getting caught. How exactly do you test the null hypothesis? Surveys of criminals are a perfect of how un-scientific most social studies are. It is a totally biased population, people , by and large, never want to admit to wrong doing and many realize they will be repeat offenders so they ultimately say more laws or harder sentences will have no effect. With the exception of crimes of passion most do weigh the consequences. By your reasoning if we repealed all laws our morals and ethics would be enough to maintain our social structure by its self? I seriously doubt it.


RE: duh!
By myhipsi on 10/30/2008 1:11:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I disagree, how exactly does one separate ethics and morals from the rules of the social structure (ie: laws)?


Easily. Ie. it's perfectly ethical and moral to copy a DVD for backup purposes, but it's against the law.
Another. It's ethical and moral to smoke a joint in private, but it's against the law.

quote:
Laws clearly shape a society’s ethics


It's the other way around, Soceity's ethics clearly shape laws and laws reflect a society's morals. But a lot of other factors shape laws as well, like corrupt lobbyests, agenda driven politics, the squeeky wheel, etc.

quote:
I think many people would indulge in this type of behavior except for the fear of getting caught.


I think this analogy might apply to say, illegally downloading copyrighted material, but not to higher crime in general, especially when there is a victim. Most people choose not to steal physical property from someone else, not because it's against the law, but because it hurts someone (ie. there is a victim).

Let's take marijuana for example. Most of all illegal drug consumption in the U.S. is marijuana. In the U.S., Marijuana is a schedule 1 narcotic which puts it in the same realm as cocaine, heroin, and meth. Now, why is it that marijuana is used by more people than all the other drugs combined? It has nothing to do with the law, it has to do with people's view/attitude toward the drug. Marijuana is considered a fairly benign euphoriant, even more benign than alcohol. That's why it's more popular than the other drugs, people don't factor in the law when they take a puff.

quote:
By your reasoning if we repealed all laws our morals and ethics would be enough to maintain our social structure by its self? I seriously doubt it.


How do you think society's existed before laws were written? Most people live life based on the golden rule, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself. As for the few that didn't live by that, they usually got something in return. Karma, payback, retribution, revenge, whatever you want to call it, when people committed crimes in the past, they would be ostricized, beaten, publically humiliated, or put to death depending on the severity of the crime committed.

That said, I'm not suggesting that laws are completely useless and that we should all live in anarchy, I'm just saying that they have a lot less impact on society than people would like to think, especially those people that feel the need to legislate morality and ethics.


RE: duh!
By derwin on 10/30/2008 6:46:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Easily. Ie. it's perfectly ethical and moral to copy a DVD for backup purposes, but it's against the law.


You completely missed his point here. He did not say they were one in the same (i.e. every law is verbatim from ethics and every ethic is strickly taken from a law. He said that the two are so intertwined that it is near impossible to determine whether a person is acting through respect for laws or respect for ethics and morals.

quote:
It's the other way around, Soceity's ethics clearly shape laws and laws reflect a society's morals. - You

You do realize thats what he said right?
quote:
The two mutually affect each other. Laws clearly shape a society’s ethics and morals affect laws. - tmouse


quote:
I think this analogy might apply to say, illegally downloading copyrighted material, but not to higher crime in general, especially when there is a victim. Most people choose not to steal physical property from someone else, not because it's against the law, but because it hurts someone (ie. there is a victim).

You espouse a lot of omnicience here, but I question whether it can really be told whether people act entierly through their wish to not harm others as you claim here. In fact, I would argue that equally many if not more people act so as not to harm themselves (i.e. not get caught breaking a loaw) than act so as not to harm others. The question of whether they think they would harm themselves (i.e. if they think they will get caught) is a different story entierly.

quote:
How do you think society's existed before laws were written? Most people live life based on the golden rule, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself. As for the few that didn't live by that, they usually got something in return. Karma, payback, retribution, revenge, whatever you want to call it, when people committed crimes in the past, they would be ostricized, beaten, publically humiliated, or put to death depending on the severity of the crime committed.


The system you have here still sounds a lot like there are laws. Maybe noone wrote them down. Or maybe only a few people knew how to read them, or whatnot... But regardless, there is a system of crime and punishment in place in your example.

In all, your post seems like an exuse to make an argument for the end of marijuana prohibition. While I am not by necessity opposed to that, you seemed to have made a very bad argument for your case through your absurdly illogical argumentation (incase you don't follow me, your argument sounds like you were high when you wrote it). You quoted him twice, disagreed with him by saying the same thing, misinterpreted (straw manned) one of his points and then commenced to say that he was wrong on the grounds that marijuana should be legal. This sounds very reminecent of the arguments I would have with my pothead roomates in college.... Perhaps it being illegal has not done you any favors, but it managed to keep me from retarding myself any more than I did in college.


RE: duh!
By myhipsi on 10/31/2008 10:28:24 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
You completely missed his point here. He did not say they were one in the same (i.e. every law is verbatim from ethics and every ethic is strickly taken from a law. He said that the two are so intertwined that it is near impossible to determine whether a person is acting through respect for laws or respect for ethics and morals.


No, I didn't miss the point. I was simply trying to convey that a society's laws are not always congruent with the society's ethics and morals and that most people act in relation to their own morals, not the law. You don't have to refer to one or more studies to figure that out. Just talk to people.

quote:
You do realize thats what he said right?


No, he said that laws shape a society's ethics, they don't. I was stating the opposite in that regard, and morals aren't the only thing that affect laws. Special interests, lobbyests, politicians, and corporate lawyers can have significant effect on what is written as law that doesn't necessarily reflect society's morals or ethics. The two aren't necessarily inextricably linked.

quote:
You espouse a lot of omnicience here, but I question whether it can really be told whether people act entierly through their wish to not harm others as you claim here. In fact, I would argue that equally many if not more people act so as not to harm themselves (i.e. not get caught breaking a loaw) than act so as not to harm others. The question of whether they think they would harm themselves (i.e. if they think they will get caught) is a different story entierly.


You are equally omniscient in assuming that most people are as self centered as you think they are. I don't KNOW that all people choose not to commit crime because of their morals and values, I just know that based on my experience in human interaction and socializing, knowing, and talking to countless people over the years I have come to discover that laws don't necessarily govern peoples actions or inactions, and that it mostly comes down to the individuals moral and ethical stand. You can disagree, but that's my contention.

quote:
The system you have here still sounds a lot like there are laws. Maybe noone wrote them down. Or maybe only a few people knew how to read them, or whatnot... But regardless, there is a system of crime and punishment in place in your example.


Call it a system of crime and punishment if you want, but what you really have here is what has been going on since the beginning of human civilization. If you punch someone in the face, expect to be punched back. It doesn't take a law to figure that out, it just is.

quote:
In all, your post seems like an exuse to make an argument for the end of marijuana prohibition.


My post had nothing to do with an argument for or against marijuana prohibition. It was simply an example of a victimless crime. If I wanted to debate marijuana prohibition, I would have done it somewhere else. I don't need to "sneak" it into an argument about morals, ethics, and their relation to law. Nice try though.

quote:
...you seemed to have made a very bad argument for your case through your absurdly illogical argumentation (incase you don't follow me, your argument sounds like you were high when you wrote it).


Is that an insult? Maybe I'm too stupid and high to get that, so thanks for pointing that out in your patronizing, belittling, parenthesized comment.

quote:
You quoted him twice, disagreed with him by saying the same thing, misinterpreted (straw manned) one of his points and then commenced to say that he was wrong on the grounds that marijuana should be legal.


No, YOU misinterpreted my point and I didn't say anything about legalizing marijuana. I used marijuana as an example, nothing more. You are drawing conclusions in your own mind.

quote:
This sounds very reminecent of the arguments I would have with my pothead roomates in college.... Perhaps it being illegal has not done you any favors, but it managed to keep me from retarding myself any more than I did in college.


It's one thing to have a heated debate or civilized discussion with somebody, but when you start insulting and throwing out personal attacks, you've lost your argument. Pot may have spared you from being a retard (in your mind) but it certainly hasn't spared you from being an asshole.


RE: duh!
By myhipsi on 10/31/2008 10:41:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Pot may have spared you..


Should have been "Abstaining from pot may have spared you..."

I guess that means I must have be high when I wrote that.


RE: duh!
By goku on 10/29/2008 11:26:40 AM , Rating: 3
Um, maybe they should like with Drugs target the dealers and not the people "buying the stuff" so to speak. Once the damage is done, it's done, I don't see why having a copy matters unless of course YOU'RE the one that created the original copy.

Instead of arresting every person that buys a drug, arrest the drug traffickers and or dealers as there are fewer of them. Also what our government considers "child porn" seems to be a very broad term. Consider the one case where a girl was tried with having child porn despite it being nude pictures OF HERSELF! Also why should a guy be charged with child porn or "statutory rape" if it's pictures of his girl friend?


RE: duh!
By mdogs444 on 10/29/2008 11:38:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also why should a guy be charged with child porn or "statutory rape" if it's pictures of his girl friend?

Um, perhaps if his girlfriend is considered too young by state law. If you're 21, and shes 14, thats child porn and could be statutory rape....even if you do call her your girlfriend.

Anyone who tries to justify what these people do are just flat out sick. Surprised we haven't had the "Christopher" encounter here yet.


RE: duh!
By mindless1 on 10/29/2008 10:48:25 PM , Rating: 3
Ok, and if you're 18 and she's 15? Years ago, probably your ancestors as well, did marry younger than people do today.

You're lumping "these people" as if anyone that doesn't agree with your ever broadening definition is wrong. Two young adults where one happens to be under an arbitrary definition of a minor is not the same as some twisted old man looking for pictures of pre-pubescent children. "These people" are different people and yes they all may have broken some law but truth is I remember back when I was 18, knew people who dated, had sex with others under 18. There wasn't anything sick about it, just as all people labeled as sexual offenders are obviously not as sick as others.

We need more laws to protect children and more laws that differentiate various crimes, not the generic lumping together that you'd like to do.


RE: duh!
By inighthawki on 10/29/2008 10:54:21 AM , Rating: 2
Instead of locking up the people who look at it, they need to get to the source of the people who share it.


RE: duh!
By mdogs444 on 10/29/08, Rating: 0
RE: duh!
By Indianapolis on 10/29/2008 9:45:21 AM , Rating: 2
Police didn't go into his home and search his computer without a warrant. The computer was abandoned, and the person who claimed it (i.e. the new owner) turned it over to police when he found the disturbing images. No search warrant should have been required.

Now if the computer was not legally abandoned, then the person who took it should be charged with theft. But that shouldn't affect the police. They had a good-faith belief that the computer was abandoned.

As far as the evidence being thrown out, it's not a done deal yet. I assume the state will appeal this decision, and hopefully common sense will prevail (but I wouldn't count on it when lawyers are involved!)


RE: duh!
By mm2587 on 10/29/2008 9:58:19 AM , Rating: 2
agreed. While I'm happy that the judge was intelligent enough to make an excellent ruling in regards to the hash being a search; this case should not have been about whether or not searching a hard drive without a warrent was legal. You would think that in todays soceity there would be no question searching someones computer was the same as searching their home.

The case should have centered around if the computer was abandoned or not. If the computer was legally abandoned then the police should not have needed a warrant.


RE: duh!
By tmouse on 10/29/2008 1:51:42 PM , Rating: 3
Well the problem is the computer was NOT Abandoned. It appears he was evicted. Now whether this was done properly or not is unknown, but I kind of doubt it. Usually a forced eviction involves a court officer to provide papers to the person being evicted and I doubt he would have let them put his stuff on the curb. A landlord cannot simply throw your stuff out. The guy who helped the landlord, kept the computer and "discovered" the porn could be guilty of theft. The computer was reported stolen and the police tracked it down, probably by asking the landlord who told them the other guy kept the computer. When they contacted him he tells them there is child porn on it and they began investigating the drive. This is where a warrant is required. The report is just probable cause for a warrant not in and of itself justification for a search. The data is not in plain sight. Anyways the case would be ruined by the fact someone else had total access to the machine, that is certainly reasonable doubt as to who put the files on the computer.


RE: duh!
By mindless1 on 10/29/2008 10:52:43 PM , Rating: 2
Basically you can't have it both ways. Either:

A) It's abandoned and no longer under his control, there is reasonable doubt that someone else could have put the files on it. How hard is it to set the system clock to one year ago, copy the files on, then set the clock back?

B) It's not abandoned, they need a warrant.

BTW, abandonment is not about where you find something, it's how it got there, the intent of the legal owner. If I take your wallet and throw it in a trash can and you report it stolen, you did not abandon it.


RE: duh!
By derwin on 10/30/2008 6:51:58 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention the prosecuting attourneys could claim inevitable discovery (http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/inevitable-discov... That throws the whole warrantless search out the window.

The police had obtained the computer legally.

They police had oppened the investigation into the child porogography case with no illegal steps.

The police did not obtain a warrant to search the computer - but they would have eventually. And they would have eventually found the porn.


RE: duh!
By derwin on 10/30/2008 6:52:46 PM , Rating: 2
since the last post seemed to not have a working link, lets try this:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/inevitable-discov...


RE: duh!
By geddarkstorm on 10/29/2008 1:56:50 PM , Rating: 2
The guy reported it stolen, so no, it wasn't abandoned.


O.o
By dflynchimp on 10/29/2008 9:27:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
compared them to a national child pornography database


You mean to tell me the U.S Government has a complete collection of child pornography? That's truly messed up...




RE: O.o
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/29/2008 9:30:57 AM , Rating: 5
I hear it was championed by Senator Larry Craig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Vs5570pKw

*ducks*


RE: O.o
By mdogs444 on 10/29/08, Rating: -1
RE: O.o
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/29/2008 9:52:44 AM , Rating: 5
You're getting your databases confused...
Clinton's matched positive to the federal female intern p0rn database, obviously...

It showed a specially high match to the "slightly chunky" subset.


RE: O.o
By MrBlastman on 10/29/2008 10:05:02 AM , Rating: 3
plumpers... someone has to love em' and I'm glad there are other men willing to do it :)


RE: O.o
By Indianapolis on 10/29/2008 9:51:39 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, I don't think that's quite his bag.


RE: O.o
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/29/2008 10:05:23 AM , Rating: 2
...eh, don't be too sure....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RntWGPEjoo

*ducks again*


RE: O.o
By Zirconium on 10/29/2008 9:31:31 AM , Rating: 2
How else is that Paedofinder General supposed to operate?


warentless
By hitman699 on 10/29/2008 10:22:00 AM , Rating: 2
The likely reason this required a warrent was likely that upon eviction it was likely the landlords responsibility to store the items for a period of time..likely 90 days at least upon the prior tenent vacating the apartment and he likely just tossed it out (especially if this all happened before he reported it stolen.. as noone waits 3 months to report something stolen..)

If so, Tecnically the landlord committed the theft and the person who picked it up from the trash "may" have been able to be charged with recieving stolen property if the prosecutor wanted to be a prick but definatly could be charged with destroying evidence...

lastly, the prosecution has a serious problem with the case regardless.. in the fact that the device has been in the hands of at least 2 other people (maybe others even had the computer and got nervous and put it back), therefore it would be very difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that for instance the landlord didn't put it in there to get back at him for making him go through an eviction, one of the other people who had possession didn't put it in there, get nervous and blame it on the prior owner.. or any number of crazy scenarios.. lots of obstacles.. unless of course the guy was in some of the pictures... I would think most DA's would have tried to plea this out.




RE: warentless
By wht1986 on 10/29/2008 10:39:32 AM , Rating: 2
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe this Hipple person used the computer to view the porn? The landlord? It's still a sick crime, and I hope they can put away the correct perp.


RE: warentless
By hitman699 on 10/29/2008 11:23:13 AM , Rating: 2
They still have the confession according to the court documents.. but the case is effectivly shot as the defendent could say he "confessed" to having child porn because he thought some of the girls/boys looked "young"..

with no actual pictures due to the suprression and the fact he is obviously not a doctor who can distinguish with absolute certaintly the age of the people in the pictures. also he can say they were just nude photos which are legal under the law and thats what he "meant by child porn" was just naked non sexual pics. with pics to prove otherwise IT would be a very difficult case. my guess is this case is done.

and its sad because they should have just used the person who "found" the laptops statement as a basis for probable cause for a warrent and at least had SOME evidence (to at least back up his confession even if hard to prove who the pictures and videos really belonged to) to argue in court or use to force a plea.

I agree with the judges decision to supress the images.
Fruits of the poisoness tree.. Any evidence stemming from an illegal action of the police is itself illegal and therefore inadmissable.. The search was clearly a violation without the use of an easily obtainable warrent.


RE: warentless
By Wellsoul2 on 10/29/2008 12:56:16 PM , Rating: 2
Yes I agree. This is what judges are for. You need to prove
there's a reason to search or seize.
If you let the thought police decide what is porn then most of us go to jail. If you are making or distributing illegal
porn and passing it to someone in a chatroom then I can see
that being a crime though.

Catch people doing the real crime, not people with only pics. Soon the fascists will throw everyone in jail for
some picture of a 17 yr old they don't know about.
Lots of those girls in porn lie about their age so
soon most of us will be in jail if not for judges.


RE: warentless
By tmouse on 10/29/2008 3:22:46 PM , Rating: 2
Well I guess it depends on what he said to the cops and what the other guy saw. If it was children ie not teens or early teens, we all know what we are talking about here, being abused you do not have to be a doctor. If the investigator saw those files he could also testify to that information, just the other files are off limits.


Hippie
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/29/2008 9:22:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Seth Hipple of the East Pennsboro, Pennsylvania township


Am I the only one who read this as "Seth Hippie of the East..."??

I think I need my morning coffee. As Cartman would say "D@*n hippies!!!"




RE: Hippie
By Spivonious on 10/29/2008 9:27:19 AM , Rating: 2
I think the "the" is out of place. Here is PA we would say "Seth Hipple of East Pennsboro township."


RE: Hippie
By strikeback03 on 10/29/2008 10:03:23 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe whoever wrote that line went to THE Ohio state university *rolls eyes*


RE: Hippie
By Indianapolis on 10/29/08, Rating: -1
RE: Hippie
By blaktron on 10/29/2008 1:09:39 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, he's simply accused of having naked pictures on his computer, with no convictions that they were even there or that he ever looked at them. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty??


Full disk encryption
By ClusterAble on 10/29/2008 6:54:09 PM , Rating: 2
If you plan to play with illegal files, then I would suggest FULL disk encryption. Dont give them anythign to use against you.

Jiff
www.Privacy-Center.net




By FFVison on 10/29/2008 7:23:42 PM , Rating: 2
Whoever put these files on this computer is sick. The problem is that there were too many people who had the computer before the forensic investigators got ahold of it. For one, if the landlord really wanted to frame this guy, he could have easily done so. He could have even easily changed the date and time of the computer's clock to some time in the past when he knows that the guy would have had the computer in his residence. So, regardless of whether or not the computer was legally "abandoned" and "recovered," it would be REALLY difficult to guarantee that it was indeed he who originally put the files on that computer. I am also curious as to where these files were on his computer. Were they in his Internet Cache where they could have been downloaded via a popup or by other similar means?

Now, I would find it difficult to believe that someone would receive an eviction notice and not be all that secretive of where he hides his illegal files. It is pretty easy to password protect your computer and, in addition, encrypt a directory on an NTFS partition so that no one else could access those files.

I'm not saying that I condone this behavior, I am just saying that someone whose property is likely to be discarded or put out for public display and/or retrieval, one might expect him to be a little more cautious about how readily accessable his most private files are.

I would say that the only way for certain that they could use the information recovered by the computer (assuming that it was recovered legally) is to double check the creation file dates and then check with his Internet Service Provider and see if they have some sort of log that they could subpoena, though if they are successful, I would really be scared about what the Internet Service Providers log.

As far as the MD5 hashes go, I imagine that there are a LOT of P2P programs out there that supply you with an MD5 hash for each file shared. This could be interesting to see if this is used in the future for defense of those ilegally sharing copyrighted material over P2P networks. It should be noted that it would also be easy to circumvent this for MP3s simply by changing the ID3 tag, though it might be harder with other filetypes. I think that this should set an interesting precident though. I'm curious to see the final outcome.




You've gotta be kidding...
By Indianapolis on 10/29/08, Rating: -1
RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Gzus666 on 10/29/2008 10:25:19 AM , Rating: 5
Would it really have been that hard to get a warrant? Seriously, just get the warrant. They have to know that by now, get a warrant for your search. Especially when time isn't an issue. They had the item in hand, a few hours would not have mattered, get the warrant. NEVER let these things slide, cause if they slide once, they can slide again.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By dflynchimp on 10/29/2008 12:44:24 PM , Rating: 3
This won't be the first time that a lowlife got a lucky break due to loopholes in the law.

See: OJ Simpson


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Samus on 10/30/2008 3:54:39 AM , Rating: 2
What's the actual charge for having downloaded child porn on your computer? Is this actually news? Even if convicted, warrant or not, this guy wouldn't serve jail time.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Fronzbot on 10/29/2008 3:32:43 PM , Rating: 2
But it didn't need a warrant. The guys stuff was on the curb, available to the public, the public took it to the authorities. There were no search and seizures involved (which is the wording of the 4th Amendment might I add). The cops were given something that had illegal stuff on it and they reacted. Job well done WITHOUT breaking any amendments. While I agree with the court's ruling, I don't understand how it deals with the case at all.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By omnicronx on 10/29/2008 3:41:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Job well done WITHOUT breaking any amendments.
He was illegally evicted, you can't just throw someones stuff on the curb without an eviction notice or without a certain amount of days of leeway after the notice. If the landlord did not issue one, or did not give him enough days to move out, his stuff never would have been left outside and thus the search was illegal.

I don't agree with the outcome, but whats next? Police getting landlords to evict drug dealers so that bags of drugs are lying on the curb? Or perhaps the RIAA sifting through your computer looking for mp3s in the same way.., after all its on the street right?


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By wvh on 10/29/2008 4:40:43 PM , Rating: 5
But a very high number of computers (I'd reckon most of them) may contain "illegal data".

If you have porn on your computer, can you guarantee that all "actors" are of legal age in their respective countries? Did you pay for the porn? Do you have any MP3s or movies, even short clips, that you do not own rights to? Does your youtube history show that you've been watching copyrighted content? Do you have any emails in which you boast breaking the speed limit, smoking pot, threatening somebody, perhaps making sexist remarks about coworkers?

There need to be clear limits, or we could all go to jail on technicalities.

Besides, who trusts the words of a person that nicks computers from the sidewalk anyway...


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Neutrion on 10/29/2008 10:25:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The guys stuff was on the curb, available to the public, the public took it to the authorities.


Stuff on the curb, despite it being trash, is private property. If you throw a credit card application into the trash without shreding it (and so many do, not saying you do), do you expect to be protected?


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By theapparition on 10/29/2008 11:40:49 AM , Rating: 5
To be quite honest.....this case was dead before it even started.

There is such a thing known as chain of evidence. The prosecution in this case cannot possibly prove control over the evidence beyond reasonable doubt.

For example, let's say you place your computer at the curb. You know exactly what's on it. Next thing, someone takes it from your curb and turns it into police.......accusing you of child pornography? Did you have it on there, or did it get added sometime after it left your curb? See where I'm going.

For all we know, the guy who took the computer may have put the images on there. Keep in mind, he didn't go to the police with allegations, rather, only turned the computer in when it was reported stolen.

I don't like seeing anyone of these sicko's go free more than you do, but this case had no merit.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By tastyratz on 10/29/2008 1:11:53 PM , Rating: 2
Absolutely true, there's no proof the evidence wasn't compromised.
The guy who owned it could have had the porn, the landlord could have put it, the movers could have put it, the finder could have put it, and anyone who walked by could have put it then returned the computer.
While all of these scenarios are unlikely, the truth is its inadmissible to begin with due to chain of evidence.
we all know what the most likely scenario is but there's a reason its "innocent until proven guilty"

This guy should not be going to jail based on any computer findings. They are going to need to find something somewhere else, but its unlikely.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Indianapolis on 10/29/2008 1:47:00 PM , Rating: 2
There's a good chance they could establish a chain of custody by other means than the mere presence of the files. The hard drive may have contained browser histories and chat logs and such.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By geddarkstorm on 10/29/2008 2:03:55 PM , Rating: 3
What's interesting to me is the guy who took the computer and reported the child porn supposedly deleted it all. I'm sure their hash search can find deleted files, but there's still a lot of questions left open about this "finder" and what he did with the computer after deleting everything he could. I'm not sure if hash searches can find date stamps; that's what would really clear up this issue. Apparently they couldn't, as date stamps were never brought up.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By omnicronx on 10/29/2008 3:18:23 PM , Rating: 3
If they can get the hash code for a particular file, they should also be able to get the date it was created and deleted. Basically they had to recover the entire file, and then run a hash search afterwords.

While I do not agree with the outcome in general (letting a child porn offender go free) as the poster below you pointed out, he was illegally evicted in the first place, and as such the computer was essentially stolen property. Its illegal in almost everywhere in the states to evict someone without a certain amount of days leeway after the eviction notice in most cases (such as non payment, and it is usually around 15 days as of the eviction notice, regardless of how many months are overdue, if the landlord decides not to give an eviction notice, that is his/her problem)

I always wondered how hash codes can even hold up in court, I understand there are 1600 matches in this case, but hash codes are by no means unique.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Yeah on 10/30/2008 12:36:42 PM , Rating: 2
Actually an MD5 Hash is calculated in such a way as that every file created is unique. A digital ' fingerprint ' of itself. If you happen to take any windows system file on your hard drive and match its' MD5 Hash with someone elses file on a different computer. The hash should match. That is how you can determine weather the file was tampered with. If the hash doesnt match, the file for one reason or another has been altered. I am not saying that it is impossible to match an MD5 Hash with say ... an image file vs. a text file. But, if your running a hash check you'd be running the same types of files. So there is a measureable amount of uniqness when it comes to MD5 Hashes. Hope that made sense.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By rdeegvainl on 10/31/2008 3:23:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:

Actually an MD5 Hash is calculated in such a way as that every file created is unique.

quote:
I am not saying that it is impossible to match an MD5 Hash with say ... an image file vs. a text file.

Kind of contradict each other there.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By tmouse on 10/29/2008 2:18:17 PM , Rating: 5
The problem is it was an illegal eviction. There was no court order. The guy was late several times and put on a month to month rental. He was 2 months back and instead of going to the courts for an eviction notice the landlord has his buddies haul the guys stuff out to the curb. He then calls a friend who is looking for a computer to come and get a free one (this is theft). The guy comes home in the middle of the move and the landlord lies about giving the computer to his friend, so the evicted guy files a police report. The friend finds the porn and for some reason deletes it prior to reporting it to the police (the landlord is with his buddy at the time). The cops are aware the computer is reported stolen but still send it to the AG's office for analysis without any attempt to get a warrant. It was stupid; and unfortunately when cops do stupid things bad guys get away. But the computer was never abandoned and the police knew this so the drive was protected and required a warrant to search.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By tmouse on 10/29/2008 3:15:59 PM , Rating: 2
Actually his statement that the porn was his to the police was not dismissed; although he tried. Eventhough I have family who were cops, when a cop tells you its your choice to lawyer up or "do yourself a fovor and just talk with them", unless you plan to confess lawyer up. So he still could be convicted.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By omnicronx on 10/29/2008 3:34:38 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry buddy, if the search was illegal then they have no case. As it was deemed illegal, the police had no reason to bring him in to write a statement. Any good lawyer will pounce on this in a second. The police screwed up here, plain and simple.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By tmouse on 11/3/2008 7:41:29 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, you’re wrong. He was not brought in they went to him and talked with him. He voluntary gave a statement. He tried and failed to have the statement stricken however the court has ruled it is totally admissible. The other guy can testify to what he saw AND it can be played in court. If the investigator saw those files he can also testify to that and if that’s one of the cases where they know the identity and age of the victim that information is also admissible. They still have the ability to request files from the ISP for any records they may have by getting a warrant based upon the two aforementioned files. ONLY the additional files are not admissible. They can also use any dates, logs ect associated with the original reported files.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By phxfreddy on 10/29/2008 11:02:55 PM , Rating: 2
Computer was stolen NOT abandoned.

Its the computer age. We need to get over not liking one or more types of information. This child porn thing is just not practical and its ripe for abuse. It would be too easy to frame someone.

We need to punish people for actions. Not thoughts. Not information.


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By Ringold on 10/30/2008 2:52:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
We need to punish people for actions. Not thoughts. Not information.


I've got two thoughts on all of this, since it's out of my field.. mostly.

1. Demand creates supply. If people demand and are willing to 'consume' child porn, then others are given incentive to supply that demand. This can work as an argument for legalized of drugs, for example, because consumption despite being benevolent in and of itself still fuels violence, crime, etc. I don't think that works for child porn however, as children are not adults and I think we could all agree nobody should consent on behalf of a child to engage in the production of child porn. If no one consumed child porn, if no one paid for it, then you'd still have the occasional whacko that might produce it himself, but it wouldn't be a business as it is now.

2. If the hash doesn't fit, you must acquit! :P


RE: You've gotta be kidding...
By myhipsi on 10/30/2008 9:23:57 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
This can work as an argument for legalized of drugs, for example, because consumption despite being benevolent in and of itself still fuels violence, crime, etc.


The consumption doesn't fuel crime and violence, the fact that drugs are illegal is what fuels the crime and violence, but that's a discussion for another time and place.

quote:
We need to punish people for actions. Not thoughts. Not information.


I have to agree with this statement. You cannot hope to successfully outlaw information (ie. binary in the case of child porn). You must outlaw the action (ie. the producer of child pornography) and put law enforcement resources fully into that. The resources are just not available to snuff out even a fraction of all the child porn that exists.


"I'd be pissed too, but you didn't have to go all Minority Report on his ass!" -- Jon Stewart on police raiding Gizmodo editor Jason Chen's home











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