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Viscount Monckton gives a presentation during the 2007 Conference on Climate Change
"Considerable presence" of skeptics


Updated 7/17/2008

After publication of this story, the APS responded with a  statement that its Physics and Society Forum is merely one unit within the APS, and its views do not reflect those of the Society at large. 


The American Physical Society, an organization representing nearly 50,000 physicists, has reversed its stance on climate change and is now proclaiming that many of its members disbelieve in human-induced global warming.  The APS is also sponsoring public debate on the validity of global warming science.  The leadership of the society had previously called the evidence for global warming "incontrovertible."

In a posting to the APS forum, editor Jeffrey Marque explains,"There is a considerable presence within the scientific community of people who do not agree with the IPCC conclusion that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are very probably likely to be primarily responsible for global warming that has occurred since the Industrial Revolution."

The APS is opening its debate with the publication of a paper by Lord Monckton of Brenchley, which concludes that climate sensitivity -- the rate of temperature change a given amount of greenhouse gas will cause -- has been grossly overstated by IPCC modeling.   A low sensitivity implies additional atmospheric CO2 will have little effect on global climate.

Larry Gould, Professor of Physics at the University of Hartford and Chairman of the New England Section of the APS, called Monckton's paper an "expose of the IPCC that details numerous exaggerations and "extensive errors"

In an email to DailyTech, Monckton says, "I was dismayed to discover that the IPCC's 2001 and 2007 reports did not devote chapters to the central 'climate sensitivity' question, and did not explain in proper, systematic detail the methods by which they evaluated it. When I began to investigate, it seemed that the IPCC was deliberately concealing and obscuring its method." 

According to Monckton, there is substantial support for his results, "in the peer-reviewed literature, most articles on climate sensitivity conclude, as I have done, that climate sensitivity must be harmlessly low."

Monckton, who was the science advisor to Britain's Thatcher administration, says natural variability is the cause of most of the Earth's recent warming.   "In the past 70 years the Sun was more active than at almost any other time in the past 11,400 years ... Mars, Jupiter, Neptune’s largest moon, and Pluto warmed at the same time as Earth."



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How many more nails?
By karkas on 7/17/2008 12:37:25 AM , Rating: 5
How many more nails will it take before MMGW is buried. I'd like to see the media call APS quacks like the rest... Na, they will prolly just ignore it like all the other evidence which proovs the earth is round not flat.




RE: How many more nails?
By Flunk on 7/17/2008 12:40:34 AM , Rating: 4
Oh no, as soon as this one is disproved they will be back on the global cooling bandwagon. If environmentalists don't have anything to complain about they choose something new to blow out of proportion.


RE: How many more nails?
By karkas on 7/17/2008 12:56:26 AM , Rating: 3
That's true, they have a long list of hysterics, I'm sure greenpeace is cooking up the next one as we speak. MMGW will just fade away and won't draw any media attention and people will muse to themselves 20 years from now... what ever happened to all that global warming stuff a long time ago. It's a real shame, if the mainstream media actually did their jobs without letting their agenda's & paradigm's interfere we could learn a lot from this fiasco.


RE: How many more nails?
By just4U on 7/17/2008 1:03:00 AM , Rating: 2
It's still getting tons of media attention. It's still got Politicians campaigning for sweeping changes. It's still got the backing of the UN. It's still got the majority of the public by the balls as they don't know about alot of the reports that are coming out against it.

I don't know .. I keep thinking the damage is already done regardless of weather it was all a farce or not.


RE: How many more nails?
RE: How many more nails?
By myhipsi on 7/17/2008 10:19:23 AM , Rating: 2
FITCamero = funny

I'm a bit of a stickler for spelling, punctuation, and grammer too :P


RE: How many more nails?
By kbehrens on 7/17/2008 10:23:51 AM , Rating: 5
Do you mean grammar ? :P


RE: How many more nails?
By myhipsi on 7/17/2008 10:30:49 AM , Rating: 5
Damn it, now I look like an idiot :P

... (Checks spelling of last sentence)...


RE: How many more nails?
By plinkplonk on 7/17/2008 1:02:58 PM , Rating: 2
if you use firefox 3 it does spell checking for you as you type ;)


RE: How many more nails?
By fibreoptik on 7/24/2008 10:50:44 AM , Rating: 2
oh that's super. god forbid anyone should "lern 2 reed an rite propurley" :p


RE: How many more nails?
By ElBrujo on 7/25/2008 3:51:58 AM , Rating: 2
Or, g*d forbid, that IE 7 can do it, too. Most of the reasons that I've heard people give for liking Firefox better are addressed by a single IE plug-in: IE 7 Pro.

I'm not saying that Firefox doesn't have its uses...


RE: How many more nails?
By Jedi2155 on 7/28/2008 2:54:06 PM , Rating: 2
Except that its built in with Firefox versus a plug-in for the IE. Extra install versus its just there....


RE: How many more nails?
By quickk on 7/17/2008 3:30:41 PM , Rating: 2
This seems to be a universal law: whenever someone ridicules someone else about spelling or grammar, they are bound to make a mistake themselves.

My favorite reply: your an idiot.


RE: How many more nails?
By therealnickdanger on 7/17/08, Rating: 0
RE: How many more nails?
By quickk on 7/17/2008 6:16:04 PM , Rating: 2
I was pointing out that I find it hilarious when people reply "your an idiot" instead of "you're an idiot."

I wasn't saying that I love to reply "your an idiot."

I guess I should of made that a bit more clear...


RE: How many more nails?
By YEYO on 7/18/2008 5:21:51 AM , Rating: 5
The information in this article is not accurate. In the APS website there's a notice denying this. This view represents only one member opinion that he wrote in an article. In no way it represents de official stand of the APS. The offcial point of view of the APS is that global warming is cause by man made CO2 emissions.

For more info check their website: http://www.aps.org/


RE: How many more nails?
By elgueroloco on 7/25/2008 3:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
The information in the article is quite accurate, you just didn't bother to read it all. It mentions right in the article that the main APS site has disavowed the debate and that it is only taking place within the Physics & Society department. If you go to the post, you will see that they newletter editor is publishing two articles this month, one against MMGW and one for it. It's a debate. Nobody ever said they APS changed its policy.


RE: How many more nails?
By mthrndr on 7/18/2008 11:47:52 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, you should HAVE made it clearer.


RE: How many more nails?
By jbartabas on 7/18/2008 11:51:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I guess I should of made that a bit more clear...


It was crystal clear, actually. But you should consider that "your" dealing mostly with idiots around here ...


RE: How many more nails?
By DPercy on 7/24/2008 8:50:21 PM , Rating: 2
Yes JbartAnAss, you're the best idiot of the bunch. Actually, you're mentally sick and should be drugged up in an Instatution. Maybe you're there now.


RE: How many more nails?
By B3an on 7/22/2008 1:01:26 AM , Rating: 2
No it was obvious. He's just an idiot.


RE: How many more nails?
By Mojo the Monkey on 7/18/2008 12:56:11 PM , Rating: 2
and you spelled his name wrong


RE: How many more nails?
By grenableu on 7/17/2008 9:57:22 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, the EPA just announced a huge set of new regulations to restrict CO2. Senator Inhofe has called it the most economically destructive act the federal government has taken in fifty years.


RE: How many more nails?
By Polynikes on 7/21/2008 9:38:26 PM , Rating: 1
Unfortunately, I think you're right. The damage is done, we will have spent ungodly amounts of money "fixing" this "problem" before we realize it wasn't really a problem.


RE: How many more nails?
By Ringold on 7/17/08, Rating: 0
RE: How many more nails?
By Fluxion on 7/17/2008 3:00:54 PM , Rating: 1
I think one of the largest reasons for lunar colonization is for the exploitation of its resources, lol. Once we're done strip-mining it, nobody will ever have known that its surface was once crater-laden.


RE: How many more nails?
By grenableu on 7/17/08, Rating: 0
RE: How many more nails?
By Polynikes on 7/21/2008 9:35:12 PM , Rating: 1
The moon is a rock with no life on it. Who gives a crap if we mine it?


RE: How many more nails?
By ikkeman2 on 7/23/2008 1:44:56 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sure it'll be real romantic.
You take your girl (or guy - whatever tickles your fancy) to the lake. serve your prepared piknick with a cooler or wine (or a bottle of schotch - again, tickle away). and after the sun sets you spend a few memorable hours in the warmth of your campfire.

The perfect ending to this scenario is offcourse staring up at the new stripmine site...
Or Nike might pay billions to get their logo carved into it's surface... It'll be a massive job, but the chinese build a wall you can see from space with only manual labour - I'm sure our tech is advanced enough to carve a buetiful nike sign in luna's face.

not that I'm against strip-mining, but i can see some of their points.


RE: How many more nails?
By YEYO on 7/18/2008 4:53:21 AM , Rating: 1
The information in this article is not accurate. In the APS website there's a notice denying this. This view represents only one member opinion that he wrote in an article. In no way it represents de official stand of the APS. The offcial point of view of the APS is that global warming is cause by man made CO2 emissions.

For more info check their website: http://www.aps.org/

Sorry Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck uneducated followers


RE: How many more nails?
By calvin0007 on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: How many more nails?
By mahax on 7/18/2008 12:39:45 PM , Rating: 3
Do'h, things change over a loooong time. You know, America broke off of Africa etc. And 4000 years is a bit longer than the industrialized era which during we presumably caused the GW. The whole point isn't the change, but the rate it's happening at.


RE: How many more nails?
By Hoser McMoose on 7/18/2008 8:57:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
These little things keep bugging me; why did the Vikings call Greenland, Greenland in the 10th century AD?

Possibly because the south of Greenland, where they landed, IS green?

Take a look at pictures of the place sometime. A little bit rocky, but otherwise it reminds me a LOT of Ireland (and certainly similar to Newfoundland). You don't have to go very far North in the country until it's covered in ice, but the Vikings landed on the Southernmost tip.

The name 'Greenland' is neither proof nor disproof of anything other than the name of an island.


RE: How many more nails?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 9:02:08 PM , Rating: 2
> "The name 'Greenland' is neither proof nor disproof of anything other than the name of an island. "

There is no doubt that Greenland was substantially warming during the Viking colonization than it is today. I've posted the studies to demonstrate such many times before. The coming of the Little Ice Age cooled the continent by some 2-3C and spelled the end of the Viking settlements.


RE: How many more nails?
By Hoser McMoose on 7/18/2008 9:16:02 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, Greenland was warmer when the Vikings colonized the place vs. when they died off or left. The temperature data may be of some interest, the name 'Greenland' is not.

Temperature data is science, 'Greenland' is just the name of an island in the North Atlantic.


RE: How many more nails?
By darmbruster on 7/19/2008 11:07:28 AM , Rating: 5
the true story: They called green Iceland ICEland and the Icy Greenland GREENland to keep people from setting Iceland. It was a trick... or so they say...



RE: How many more nails?
By darmbruster on 7/19/2008 11:08:58 AM , Rating: 2
correction: settling


RE: How many more nails?
By mthrndr on 7/18/2008 11:52:55 AM , Rating: 1
YEYO, continue using that yeyo, and remain oblivious to reality. None of us care.


RE: How many more nails?
By macintyred on 7/18/2008 1:19:06 PM , Rating: 2
I noticed you didn't include Rush Limbaugh with O'Reilly and Beck.

from http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/magazine/06Limba...
quote:
Limbaugh’s audience is often underestimated by critics who don’t listen to the show (only 3 percent of his audience identify themselves as “liberal,” according to the nonpartisan Pew Research Center for the People and the Press). Recently, Pew reported that, on a series of “news knowledge questions,” Limbaugh’s “Dittoheads” — the defiantly self-mocking term for his faithful, supposedly brainwashed, audience — scored higher than NPR listeners. The study found that “readers of newsmagazines, political magazines and business magazines, listeners of Rush Limbaugh and NPR and viewers of the Daily Show and C-SPAN are also much more likely than the average person to have a college degree.”


RE: How many more nails?
By WTFiSJuiCE on 7/21/2008 6:46:44 AM , Rating: 3
This just in from the APS.

They've debated the global warming issue and after much deliberation, they have finally come to a consensus.

The answer to Global Warming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU&feature...


RE: How many more nails?
By WTFiSJuiCE on 7/21/2008 6:48:29 AM , Rating: 2
OMG! It makes so much sense =D.

Now I can finally understand what they're talking about


RE: How many more nails?
By YEYO on 7/18/2008 5:20:55 AM , Rating: 3
The information in this article is not accurate. In the APS website there's a notice denying this. This view represents only one member. In no way it represents de official stand of the APS. The offcial point of view of the APS is that global warming is cause by man made CO2 emissions.

For more info check their website: http://www.aps.org/


RE: How many more nails?
By rangerdavid on 7/18/2008 10:47:35 AM , Rating: 5

DailyTech Blog = FAIL.

This is why blogs are terrible sources of information. Go to the APS.org webiste. You'll see this opinion is expressed by a single paper submitted to the organization, not the organization itself.


RE: How many more nails?
By grenableu on 7/18/2008 12:51:18 PM , Rating: 2
A single paper...you don't read very well, do you?


RE: How many more nails?
By YEYO on 7/18/2008 2:04:32 PM , Rating: 1
Thanks guys. We killed this story. Drudge Report removed this from their site. Now they stand corrected.

PLANET EARTH 1 / EXXON MOBILE 0


RE: How many more nails?
By The Night Owl on 7/18/2008 2:21:35 PM , Rating: 5
The damage has already been done.

Mr. Asher is single-handedly making Daily Tech a website for stupid people.


RE: How many more nails?
By YEYO on 7/18/2008 2:46:11 PM , Rating: 2
Don't give up Night Owl. Is our duty to promote the idea of a cleaner planet, by debunking false information that appears in any news media outlet. That's the only way we're going to be able to fight the misinformation agenda of some big companies that might loose money if the government put in place CO2 regulations.

Non the less is now obvious for many people in the government and private sector that fighting global warming is going to bring many economic advantages in the future.


RE: How many more nails?
By kbehrens on 7/18/2008 8:37:55 PM , Rating: 3
The "big companies" are gaining money from CO2 emission restrictions. Carbon credits are now a multi billion dollar industry, and big business is making a fortune off government subsidizies on biofuels, wind, solar, and other schemes. The people that are paying the price are you and me.

Meanwhile, China is now putting out more CO2 than the US. In 20 years, it'll put out more than the US and Europe combined.


RE: How many more nails?
By FITCamaro on 7/17/2008 8:49:21 AM , Rating: 5
Idiots will always exist. If they're not complaining and/or campaigning for us to change our lives about one thing, it'll be another.

After man-made global warming I'm thinking they'll go after the production of Twinkies. They last forever so therefore are evil since they can clutter landfills. In trying to get rid of them though they will doom the survivors of the nuclear holocaust since that would have been their only source of food. Instead they'll have to eat the cockroaches. Assuming the mutated cockroaches don't eat them first.


RE: How many more nails?
By Plughead on 7/17/2008 11:28:13 PM , Rating: 2
This isn't another nail. This is Old News. A quick google reveals that this guy has been an idiot since at least 2006:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1...


RE: How many more nails?
By kbehrens on 7/18/2008 12:03:49 AM , Rating: 2
FYI, Gavin Schmidt is one of the founders of RealClimate and about the most radical AGW zealot in the Northern hemisphere. It doesn't really mean a lot that he says Monckton is wrong.


RE: How many more nails?
By Plughead on 7/18/2008 2:50:48 PM , Rating: 2
*sigh*

Being that Monckton DOESN'T HAVE ANY PHYSICS CREDENTIALS at all, how is it that you think we should take HIM seriously?

This gem is from his Wikipedia entry:

[For his part, Monckton takes the view that it is "a very modern notion that you need paper qualifications to pronounce on anything and it comes from the socialist idea that people need to be trained in the official, accepted, dogmatic truths."]

Umm, yeah... He's a loon.


RE: How many more nails?
By Optimizer on 7/25/2008 8:17:36 AM , Rating: 2
Hmm, I DO have a degree in physics. I've personally looked at historical temperature and CO2 data and they are well correlated, if you don't include the last 150 years or so of data. If you use the past correlation to predict the Earth's temperature based on today's atmospheric CO2 concentration, it should be MUCH warmer than it is currently. I can only conclude that it is most very probably somewhat maybe possibly likely that CO2 isn't as strong a driver as "we" think it is.

And I tend to agree with the notion that somebody can be an expert in a field without having a degree and that the converse is also true, that somebody can have that piece of paper and yet be unqualified to take a stance on an issue.

---

Will Hunting: You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in library late fees

Harvard snob: I might have wasted my money, but I'll have a degree, and you'll be cleaning my floors.

Will Hunting: Yeah..but at least I won't be unoriginal.


RE: How many more nails?
By YEYO on 7/18/2008 4:52:27 AM , Rating: 1
The information in this article is not accurate. In the APS website there's a notice denying this. This view represents only one member opinion that he wrote in an article. In no way it represents de official stand of the APS. The offcial point of view of the APS is that global warming is cause by man made CO2 emissions.

For more info check their website: http://www.aps.org/

Sorry Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck uneducated followers


RE: How many more nails?
By Continuum01 on 7/18/2008 9:06:17 AM , Rating: 5
The APS website specifically denies this headline. Additionally, the APS specifically says that this is the personal opinion of the author, and not that of the APS. Why do you guys always, always resort to lying and distorting the truth?


RE: How many more nails?
By ameriswede on 7/20/2008 5:39:58 AM , Rating: 3
LOL!! as per usual, you poor right wing slobs just got mislead! In any other instance, on almost any other subject any rational person would say "better safe than sorry" and enact measures to avoid the worst case scenario. however, you stupid, easily mislead bunch of conservative robots are just buying the arguments(?) which Exxon and their ilk have put forth to further their own interest. All because you have already decided their is no such thing as MMGW, and nothing, apparently not even 98% of the scientific community, can sway your misbegotten belief. I know most of you are religious (supposedly), but is kneeling at the alter of corporate greed the way of Jesus?


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/21/08, Rating: 0
RE: How many more nails?
By Chris Bell on 7/21/2008 10:55:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
i pointed out that according to the law of universal gravitation the earth and sun must be constantly moving closer to one another and considering the rate at which the human population increases, for every billion new people born, once the reach adulthood, assuming an average of !50lbs per person, that is an extra 150 billion lbs of additional gravitational force pulling the earth as a whole toward the sun. (and before anyone tried to "correct" me, no i don't mean 150 billion lbs of mass, lbs is a unit of force, as weight is mass times the acceleration due to gravity, in this case the gravitational pull of the sun.)
as i pointed out, 150 billion lbs of extra gravitational force would be more than sufficient to accelerate the rate at which the earth is "falling" towards the sun.

not only was i the only one that was asked to present his paper to the class, not only did i receive the only "A" on the assignment, but the my professor also told me that i was one of the brighter people she had ever had the privilege of instructing.


This post makes me sad.

So there is extra mass due to all the people being born? Where do you think those people come from?

They grow. To fuel this growth, they eat. They eat food from the ground. (Or other animals which eat food from the ground.) The food grows from a seed. The seed grows by pulling in nutrients from the roots. Humans are, in a very distant sense, made of the ground.

New people do not add to the mass of the Earth. The conservation of mass is first year physics.

You got an A? Again, that makes me sad.


RE: How many more nails?
By Gruffy on 7/22/2008 3:39:55 PM , Rating: 2
I, too am saddened that this paper received an A. I would downgrade for the following as well:
Were there to be an added mass, the earth-moon system would actually move farther from the sun. The only way for it to move closer to the sun (fall in, so to speak) would be for the orbital velocity of the system to decrease.
I would assign a "B" - because his stand was meritorious, but one of his presentations was fallacious.


RE: How many more nails?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/22/2008 3:57:05 PM , Rating: 3
> "The only way for it to move closer to the sun (fall in, so to speak) would be for the orbital velocity of the system to decrease."

Just the opposite, in fact. The nearer the earth (or any orbiting body) is, the higher its orbital velocity. For instance, Mercury's orbital velocity is 48 km/s, much higher than the Earth's velocity of 30 km/s.

> "Were there to be an added mass, the earth-moon system would actually move farther from the sun."

Actually, assuming the Earth magically increased its mass, the net effect on orbital radius (or velocity) would be zero.

If the Earth's mass increased by some exernal mass being added to it (say by a comet strike), then the orbital radius would either increase or decrease depending on whether the addition added or subtracted energy to the overall system. A comet strike moving faster than the Earth, for example, would increase total energy, and thus increase orbital radius.


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/22/2008 9:24:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I, too am saddened that this paper received an A. I would downgrade for the following as well:
Were there to be an added mass, the earth-moon system would actually move farther from the sun. The only way for it to move closer to the sun (fall in, so to speak) would be for the orbital velocity of the system to decrease.
I would assign a "B" - because his stand was meritorious, but one of his presentations was fallacious.


i too am saddened because i had no idea that the education system in this country was so lacking.

i am dying to hear why you believe that an increase in mass in either the earth or moon (or both) would result in the earth (and moon) moving further from the sun.

the earth has 2 angular velocities (1 in relation to itself and 1 in relation to the sun) and the moon has 3 angular velocities (1 in relation to itself, 1 in relation to the earth and 1 in relation to the sun), what makes you think that an increase in mass of the earth would result in a faster angular velocity of any of the above mentioned velocities?

let me guess: because newton explained the orbit of the moon as a series of continuous falls, right? perhaps you have heard of curvature, you know that pesky little property of matter that "distorts" the space around it and is immortalized in Newton's law of universal gravitation as 'G', you know that silly little value we know as the gravitational constant (in case you didn't know, that's what 'G' describes, though newton didn't realize it at the time, curvature). any of this ringing a bell?

an increase in the mass of the earth would result in an increase in the curvature of space around it, resulting in a greater attraction between earth and moon and earth and sun.

do i really need to post a complete physics lecture on mass, energy, angular velocity, curvature and gravity in this forum?


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: How many more nails?
By dryer on 7/23/2008 11:05:09 AM , Rating: 4
OMG, you are so wrong, where do I begin.

The earth is not increasing in mass. Yes there is a little equation E=mc^2 which obviously you know very little about. Are you assuming the energy from the sun is being converted to mass? Ok fine, let's go there. The amount of energy received by the sun per year is approximately 3850 zettajoules. Assume all of that energy is converted to mass. That would be an increase in mass of the earth of 4.28 * 10^7 kilograms per year according to E = mc^2. The mass of the earth is about 5.97 * 10^24 grams. That is about a 10^(-16)% change in mass per year. Or put another way, it would take about 1 quadrillion years for the mass of the earth to increase by 1%.

Of course that does not even address what mechanisms you are discussing that provides the conversion. You are not talking about photosynthesis are you? That is merely the conversion of light energy into chemical energy. If mass is being created, in what form is it being created. Are neutrons forming, protons, electrons...? Of course if you create an electron you must also create an anti-electron which would become annilahated once it came into contact with an electron, thus no net mass would be created.

Mass is being created from energy on earth in super colliders, but no where else. The energies needed to create the tiniest bit of mass is enormous.

The earth is bombarded with cosmic dust and from ions from the sun, but the masses are insignificant and will not alter the orbital path of the earth in any measureable way.

Your explanation of black hole formation is completely false. Stars lose mass as they age. They convert mass into energy. That is how they burn. Black holes form when the fuel of a very large star is consumed and there is not sufficient heat to keep the gravitational forces from collapsing the star. I will not go into the nuclear physics involved since obviously you need learn the basics first.

The reason why mass was produced during the big bang was that the energy density was so high. That is what is required to convert energy to mass. That is why conversion of energy to mass only occurs in a super collider.

Your physics teacher should be fired.

BTW, I have PhD in physics.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/23/2008 1:08:20 PM , Rating: 2
I don't (Masters in EE), but I knew that as well. It is in any freshman physics course, and the why taught ruthlessly in the first physics course for science majors.


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/23/2008 6:53:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
BTW, I have PhD in physics


it may be time to return your Ph.D. and as for a refund.

quote:
The earth is not increasing in mass. Yes there is a little equation E=mc^2 which obviously you know very little about. Are you assuming the energy from the sun is being converted to mass? Ok fine, let's go there. The amount of energy received by the sun per year is approximately 3850 zettajoules. Assume all of that energy is converted to mass. That would be an increase in mass of the earth of 4.28 * 10^7 kilograms per year according to E = mc^2. The mass of the earth is about 5.97 * 10^24 grams. That is about a 10^(-16)% change in mass per year. Or put another way, it would take about 1 quadrillion years for the mass of the earth to increase by 1%.


the earth is not increasing in mass? perhaps you should tell that to this guy:

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae75....

as you can see the earth's mass (he mistakenly uses the word "weight" instead of "mass") increases by 1 quadrillionth of 1 percent per day NOT per year, and that's only from debris and particles that strike the earth, that's assuming zero energy/mass conversion takes place.

here's some info from NASA that i think you might find informative:

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_earth.html#masseart...

go to number 19 (Speed of Earth's Rotation Slowing?) and then number 24 (Weight Changes if Earth Stops Rotating) and for the coup de grace check out number 36 (Changes in the Earth-Sun Distance). there's plenty more there that adds support to my theory but allow me to just say: "checkmate".

quote:
Your explanation of black hole formation is completely false. Stars lose mass as they age. They convert mass into energy. That is how they burn. Black holes form when the fuel of a very large star is consumed and there is not sufficient heat to keep the gravitational forces from collapsing the star. I will not go into the nuclear physics involved since obviously you need learn the basics first.


where did you get the idea that stars lose mass as they age? some links, the information taken together should be enough to convince you that a star's mass increases with time not decreases:

http://library.thinkquest.org/3471/energy_mass_equ...

http://library.thinkquest.org/3471/fusion.html

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/sun_worldbook.html

something else also just occurred to me, both the sun and the earth have very powerful magnetic fields (<---can you guess where i'm going with this?), i wonder if the two magnetic fields (assuming they had the correct polarization) could interact with sufficient strength to increase the amount of attraction between the earth and sun? if in fact they are strong enough, you would have a second force drawing the two together and another explanation for global warming (assuming it actually exists).

Ph.D. in Physics, huh? what clown school did you drop out from. same goes for the clown that agreed with you claiming a Master's in EE.

yeah right.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/23/2008 8:29:25 PM , Rating: 2
Well you obviously can't read or follow conversations longer that five words. So when did you drop out of the fifth grade?

As the previous conversation was about gaining mass due to energy absorption alone.
He was isolating the affects of the earth gaining mass from energy only, NOT from ANY cosmic particles and it was a hypothetical calcluation in any case as he assumed 100% energy to mass conversion. Which does not happen right? right?

Would it not also be true to say that the magnetic fields are repelling one another instead of attracting? What of the outward force of the solar wind? What did does this even have to do with the conversation at hand? What is your degree from anyway? ITT Tech? Go back and learn how to read bozo.


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/24/2008 12:31:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well you obviously can't read or follow conversations longer that five words. So when did you drop out of the fifth grade?


when they skipped me ahead to the 6th grade.

quote:
As the previous conversation was about gaining mass due to energy absorption alone. He was isolating the affects of the earth gaining mass from energy only, NOT from ANY cosmic particles and it was a hypothetical calcluation in any case as he assumed 100% energy to mass conversion. Which does not happen right? right?


wrong. i initially talked about a paper i wrote in college where i pointed out that if global warming does take place another, better, explanation was that earth's mass was increasing as a result of the increase in the earth's population.

2 posters wrote in to offer the opinion that the total earth mass remains constant and that the increase in the earth's population didn't require an increase in mass as people where simply composed of mass that was already here.

i pointed out a mechanism for the increase in mass, namely energy/mass conversion (not energy absorption, something quite different) and i also explained how the earth was not a closed system and it was constantly getting bombarded by mass (in the form of particles) of an extra-terrestrial origin. "he", our supposed Ph.D. in Physics, claimed that such a thing does not in fact take place and you agreed, which makes both of you imbeciles. i offered proof that it does in fact take place.

go back and reread my post and his reply and then start flapping your gums, ok fruitcake?

quote:
Would it not also be true to say that the magnetic fields are repelling one another instead of attracting? What of the outward force of the solar wind? What did does this even have to do with the conversation at hand?


i'm sorry, i thought you said you had a Master's in EE, which i took to mean electrical engineering, silly me. were you absent the day they talked about magnetic fields? just so you know, it is not possible for 2 magnetic fields to simultaneously attract and repel one another, if you go back and reread what i wrote i was thinking out loud and wondering IF the earth's and the sun's magnetic fields had the correct orientation (i initially said "polarization" but orientation is a more accurate description) would they be strong enough to interact with one another at these distances and then opined that if the above 2 conditions were true then (and only then) we would have a second force drawing the earth closer to the sun, thus adding support for my alternate explanation of global warming.

quote:
Go back and learn how to read bozo.


this applies to you more than me.


RE: How many more nails?
By BigT383 on 7/24/2008 8:08:13 PM , Rating: 3
Your observation on patent expiration has merit, and is an interesting topic for a paper. However it has been independently verified that CFCs do weaken the ozone layer.

As for the global warming issue, mainstream science in peer-reviewed publications does have a consensus that human activity is to blame for the increase in temperatures since the beginning of the industrial revolution. People that deny it usually have some reason for denying it, and I'm wondering why yours is. My guess is some pathological like of conspiracy theories, based on your patent observation ideas? Do some research, write papers about your findings, but never be afraid to be proven wrong.

Speaking to the physics that you mentioned... they were pretty bad.

According to Google, in order for a photon to have enough energy to spontaneously change into a particle with the mass of an electron, it must have an energy of 510,998.903 electron volts (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-... which would classify such a photon as a Gamma Ray (>~100,000 ev, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_ray). The sun does not produce much energy at those wavelengths- it's not nearly hot enough. The exceptions are sometimes in magnetic breaks in solar flares, and through normal radioactive decay, etc. Furthermore, the earth's atmosphere is opaque to gamma rays- they get absorbed by air way high up, which lets off that energy as mostly heat (see thermo sphere, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosphere). In short, gamma rays do not account for any significant changes in earth's mass. Why gamma rays and not some other type of photon that the sun outputs? Because you need a high enough energy density to create matter out of energy- all of the sunlight spread over the earth cannot be taken into account. That's like saying there's enough sunlight hitting the ocean to boil a thimble of water (which is obviously true), but why are the oceans still there? Because the light is spread out.

Anyway, I'm wandering. Next up: rocks and dust. In this, you are correct. Rocks and dust do enter the earth every day, adding to the earth's mass. The problem is, not enough to matter. The earth masses ~6x10^24kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth) and according to your link (http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae75.... gets one quadrillionth of one percent of it's mass per day. So over one quadrillion days the mass will increase one percent. That's 2.73792575 * 10^12 years (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-... The earth has only been around for 4.6 * 10^9 years. So at that rate the earth has increased in mass by like one one-thousandth of one percent over it's ENTIRE SPAN OF EXISTENCE (Yes, early on there was a period of heavy bombardment, etc, but lets agree that the current rate has been fairly constant for at least the last billion years or so). Even if you consider that mass amount significant with respect to gravity (gravity is an extremely weak force!) then to say that it's significant over the last two hundred years is certainly folly. Solar tidal forces have certainly had more effect on the earth's orbit than any such mass increase.

Now, I'm no expert in orbital dynamics, but I do know that if you increase the speed of an orbiting object tangentially to it's center of orbit (push it "forward" along its orbital path) then you move to a higher, slower orbit. Slow down, and you sink inwards but move faster. It's not very intuitive, I know. If instead you do what's natural and try to accelerate directly away from the center of your orbit, all you'll do is make the orbit more elliptical. Adding mass does basically the same thing as adding speed, since basically you're adding a force (Force=Mass*Acceleration), it's going to hurt more if it hits you, etc.). So the adding mass to the earth would cause it to move away from the sun, having greater orbital energy but lower orbital velocity. Imagine a baseball on a string that you're spinning over your head. The string goes from your hand to the ball, and represents gravity. Your hand represents the sun, since it's in the center and it's pulling on the ball to keep it going in a circle. Now say I suddenly replace the baseball with a bowling ball. That's a lot more mass! You have to use a lot more force to keep it in the same small circle- it wants to move further out and go slower. Now, you'll probably argue that as the earth's mass increases so does its attraction to the sun (correct), which would cause it to move in towards the sun (incorrect). What that actually means is that the sun would "feel" the earth more, but what determines where you orbit isn't your mass, it's your orbital speed. That's why satellites and the moon and asteroids etc, can orbit the sun in about the same orbit as earth, without weighing nearly as much. You'll probably say that the moon orbits the earth, not the sun, but in actuality it orbits both. If the earth felt the sun's gravity but the moon did not, the earth's gravity wouldn't be nearly enough to hold the moon in orbit.

Okay, whew... getting to the end here. Now on to stars and black holes. Yes, stars do lose mass over their lifetimes. For one, as mentioned above, they're turning mass into energy all the time- that's what starlight is made of- and starlight obviously leaves the star. The sun loses 4 million tons of mass each second through fusion alone (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronom... stars have "winds" of particles that leave them. The sun loses 6.7 billion tons per hour through the solar wind (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronom... Stars vary greatly- larger stars are brighter and use their fuel faster, and have higher powered winds as well, and smaller stars are less bright, live longer, and have lower-powered winds. Also, as stars get old then swell into red giants, and at this point the star is so big (same gravity, larger area) it loses grasp of the outer layers and sloughs them off in a kind of super-solar-wind that produces planetary nebulae that you can see in Hubble Pics. So stars do lose mass as they age.

Now black holes. After the red giant phase, the largest stars can still have like 12 times the mass of the sun left, even after the red giant phase. When certain conditions are met, the star will explode as a supernova. During this process, the core of the star -still weighing several times the mass of the sun- gets squished by all of that energy into something smaller than a city. Now because it's so small, the forces of gravity acting on each individual particle are so great (because they're so close together and gravity weakens with distance) that even the neutrons (which are all that's left after the gravity has smushed the electrons into their respective protons) can't hold that core up and it collapses below what is called the Schwarzschild Radius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius) to form a black hole. So you see it's not that black holes have a lot of mass (the star that the black hole came from had much MORE mass than the black hole left behind), but it's because it's in such a small area that the black hole exists. In fact, many things can be made into a black hole if you were to smush them small enough. If you were to smush earth into a sphere smaller than its Schwarzschild Radius of about ~9mm then it would be a black hole, too. See this helpful video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2VcJy8dPUM.

Okay, hopefully we cleared a lot of things up here today, and we all learned something.

Science!


RE: How many more nails?
By BigT383 on 7/24/2008 8:11:27 PM , Rating: 2
Stupid parsing... here's the video I mention (no period on the end)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2VcJy8dPUM


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/23/2008 8:31:48 PM , Rating: 2
BTW which is greater in mass

two hydrogen atoms or 1 helium atom genius?


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/23/2008 10:39:48 PM , Rating: 2
whoops,

meant to say 6 hydrogen atoms, verus one helium alpha particle!


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/24/2008 12:48:39 PM , Rating: 2
BTW which is greater in mass

two hydrogen atoms or 1 helium atom genius?

lets see, you don't mention which isotopes, so let's assume you mean the most common one:

1 hydrogen-1 (the most comment hydrogen isotope) atom has an atomic mass of 1.007825u, 1 helium-4 atom (the most common helium isotope on earth) has an atomic mass of 4.002602u, and 1 hydrogen molecule has an average molecular mass of 2 x 1.007825u or 2015650u.

let me guess, you thought that 2 hydrogen atoms have the same atomic mass as 1 helium atom does, didn't you?

i guess you were absent on the day they taught fundamental chemistry as well.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/25/2008 12:59:26 PM , Rating: 2
You still don't get it. And you don't read more than one post before you put your foot in your mouth.

6H << Helium4 2H
(6 * 1.07825) is less than (1 * 4.002602u) + (2*1.07825) + (subatomic particles) + (energy from mass conversion)

Another form is
4H = He4 + (subatomic particles) + (energy from mass conversion)

The above is the basic proton-proton fusion reaction. (More to it as the sub atomic particles are not listed explicity.)
As one He4 + the subatomic particles have less mass than 4 hydrogen atoms that difference in mass is what is converted to energy.

You prove again how dumb you are.


RE: How many more nails?
By dryer on 7/25/2008 1:30:35 PM , Rating: 2
Give it up Jim. I cannot believe that anybody with any sort of science education could make so many moronic statements about science. Therefore, I am left with only one conclusion to make: deadrats is an internet troll whose only purpose in life is to stir up trouble and insult other users.

Don't feed the trolls.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/25/2008 3:29:05 PM , Rating: 2
You got it. I am done.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/23/2008 8:35:19 PM , Rating: 2
This f**cking idiot has pissed me off so much I have to write another post.

So let me get this straight. The sun gains mass even though
it loses mass due to fusion, loses mass due to solar flare coronal ejections, and loses mass due to the solar wind?

I have to say it again, you are an idiot.


RE: How many more nails?
By deadrats on 7/24/2008 1:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This f**cking idiot has pissed me off so much I have to write another post.

So let me get this straight. The sun gains mass even though
it loses mass due to fusion, loses mass due to solar flare coronal ejections, and loses mass due to the solar wind?

I have to say it again, you are an idiot


ok, let's go with your hypothesis that i am an idiot, explain something to me so that even i can understand it: stars collapse in on themselves to form black holes (not all stars, just some of them), can we both agree on that? when a star does become a black hole it's gravitational field is so strong that light can't escape it once it's within the schwarzschild radius (nor can anything else), can we agree on this?

here's a question for you numb nuts, if a star's gravity field isn't strong enough prevent light from escaping before it becomes a black hole and gravity is a function of mass:

Fg - (M1 * M2) / D^2 * G

and as you claim the star's mass doesn't increase, then how exactly does the strength of it's gravitational field not only increase but increase to the point where light can't even escape it.

i'm dying to hear your explanation.

oh, one more little tidbit for you, fusion does not result in a loss of mass but a net gain, that's why if you look up the atomic mass of hydrogen and the atomic mass of helium you find that helium is roughly 4+ times as massive as hydrogen.

ooh, i'm sure i just pissed you off even more, or perhaps what's really pissing you off is that fact that you realize that your degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/24/2008 5:00:43 PM , Rating: 3
You are still an idiot, and not only that you don't seem to know it! The key is in the gravitation equation that you provided but evidently don't understand. Thus I will try to educate the ignorant.

Force of Gravity equation is typically expressed as

Fg = (G*M1*M2)/R^2

Where R is the radius, and M1 and M2 are the two masses involved.
Fg is a function of both mass and the star's radius.

So as Mass gets larger Fg gets larger true, however that is not the only factor. As you can see the star's radius is in the divisor of the equation and is squared, so as it gets smaller it has a much much LARGER impact on Fg. (Duh!)
The reason why a blackhole's gravity is so powerful, is due to the fact that an older star's fusion reaction can no longer overpower the star's gravity and the star's volume gets smaller and smaller. Thus, the star gets denser and denser, while at the same time the fusion reaction is still caausing mass loss.(If you don't know why look it up.) Eventually as R gets smaller the Fg (R2 is the dominant factor here.) gets so great that light cannot escape.

And as far as the proton-proton fusion reaction of stars, it takes three hydrogen atoms to form one helium3 atom, which is a net loss genius.
In detail
Hydrogen's atomic weight is 1.0079, and 4 hydrogen atoms atomic weight is 4.0316
The atomic weight of helium4 is 4.00260 which is a little less than 4 hydrogen atoms, this mass difference is converted to energy and some subatomic particles. End of story.

So deadrat stop trying to understand adult subjects until you grow up.

I am done with you.


RE: How many more nails?
By dryer on 7/23/2008 8:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
the earth is not increasing in mass? perhaps you should tell that to this guy:


As I said in my post

quote:
The earth is bombarded with cosmic dust and from ions from the sun, but the masses are insignificant and will not alter the orbital path of the earth in any measureable way.


So it looks like I agree with your link and the amount is insignificant.

quote:
go to number 19 (Speed of Earth's Rotation Slowing?) and then number 24 (Weight Changes if Earth Stops Rotating) and for the coup de grace check out number 36 (Changes in the Earth-Sun Distance). there's plenty more there that adds support to my theory but allow me to just say: "checkmate".


number 19 says
"The Earth's spin is slowing down by about 1.5 - 2 milliseconds per century, and that angular momentum is moving into the Moon's orbit, which is getting larger. The reason for this, and the reason a figure skater can only spin for so long, is friction. In the case of the skater, it's air resistance and friction with the ice. In the case of the Earth, it's the friction due to tides moving around the Earth."

Irrelevant to global warming or your crazy theory about the earth gaining mass.

#24 is about the apparent weight of objects on the earth and has nothing to do with the mass of the earth changing.

#36 is about cycles the earth follows in its orbit. This may be relevant to global warming but has nothing to do with the mass of the earth increasing.

quote:
where did you get the idea that stars lose mass as they age? some links, the information taken together should be enough to convince you that a star's mass increases with time not decreases:


Gee I don't know, maybe it was something I always knew just like what your NASA link says:

"The final nucleus consists of two protons and two neutrons, a nucleus of the most common form of helium. The mass of this nucleus is slightly less than the mass of the four protons from which it forms. The lost mass is converted into energy. The amount of energy can be calculated from the German-born physicist Albert Einstein's famous equation E = mc-squared (E=mc2). In this equation, the symbol E represents the energy, m the mass that is covered, and c-squared (c2) the speed of light multiplied by itself."

How about looking at #11

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_earth.html#masseart...

"Although stars lose mass as they evolve, none lose enough to wind up anywhere near the mass of even the most massive planet."

Did you say something about checkmate?

You still have not explained the process of how energy from the sun is converted to mass on the earth. Is this a multi-photon process? What are the particles that are created? If this is something you can prove, you should get a Nobel prize. However, I have the feeling that you are just a crack pot.


RE: How many more nails?
By Jim28 on 7/23/2008 9:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
Well deadrats? You gonna answer genius?


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