backtop


Print 59 comment(s) - last by lexluthermiest.. on Feb 20 at 5:48 PM

Majority of all Xbox 360 failures are from Red Ring of Death

The vulnerability of the Xbox 360 to a hardware failure known as the Red Ring of Death is a well publicized matter. Last summer, amidst a flurry of reports from Xbox 360 owners, DailyTech exposed retailers’ estimates that up to 33 percent of Xbox 360 consoles experience hardware failures within the first year of ownership.

Electronics and appliances warranty company SquareTrade now claims that it found a 16.4 percent normal-use failure rate on the Xbox 360. The figure, if true, shows that Microsoft has steadily improved the reliability of its console considerably – though still not up to the level of general acceptability.

Microsoft chairman Bill Gates expressed earlier this year his aim for the Xbox 360 to be the most reliable console on the market. “We've got incredible reliability on the new work we've done,” he said. “Our commitment is that it will be the most reliable video game box out there. People really love the Xbox because of the content, but we've got to make sure that the hardware never stands in the way of that.”

According to SquareTrade, 60 percent of all Xbox 360 service calls were about the Red Ring of Death, which Microsoft refers to as “three flashing red lights.” In response to widespread reports of the console’s susceptibility to that particular error, Microsoft extended its warranty to cover the specific hardware failure for three years from purchase.

The remaining 40 percent were composed to hard drive failures, disc drive malfunctions, disc read errors and others. Such defects are, however, are covered only by the console’s current one year warranty (which the original report incorrectly states is 90-days).

In response to SquareTrade’s report, Microsoft spokesman Joe DiMiero told IGN, “Microsoft does not comment on hardware failure rates [emphasis by Microsoft], nor do we comment on speculation. We have not seen the report, and are unfamiliar with the agency that filed it. Based on the enthusiast community's feedback yesterday, the methodology of this report is suspect.”

A supposed anonymous Microsoft insider blamed the Xbox 360’s fragility on the company’s initial negligence on quality assurance, saying that the project was “under resourced” in test, quality, manufacturing, and supplier management. “There just weren't enough people to do the job that needed to be done. The leadership in many of those areas was also lopsided in essential skills and experience. But I hear they are really trying to staff up now based on what has happened, and how cheap staff is compared to a couple of billion in cost of quality,” the source wrote in an email.

Microsoft has gradually introduced new hardware revisions in hopes of solving the Red Ring of Death flaw. June 2007 saw a revised cooling design with heatpipe and heatsink to cool the GPU. New Falcon hardware that would include 65nm chip technology, which was later found to apply only to the CPU, landed in stores last Fall. The GPU’s shrink to 65nm GPU, codenamed Jasper, isn’t due until this August.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Flawed?
By inighthawki on 2/18/2008 4:33:42 PM , Rating: 2
How many 360s does this statistic take into consideration? If all, then there is a major flaw. Obviously, the older 360s are going to be more prone to stability problems, and if these are included in the failure rate, then the percentage could be easily weighted. I would like to know specifically, what is the failure rate of 360s built in the past year...month...since the last revision, etc.




RE: Flawed?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/18/2008 4:55:04 PM , Rating: 2
anecdotally, the first generation players seem to be the most stable. My pre-production Xbox 360 is still kicking around even after Anand and I ripped it to shreds:

http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=26...

The two more I purchased immediately after are also just fine.


RE: Flawed?
By kilkennycat on 2/18/2008 5:54:22 PM , Rating: 4
Hey, Kris

You may be interested in reading my comments posted 824 days ago after you and Anand tore the Xbox360 apart for the article to which you refer.

I have just pulled this from the Anand archives:-

=============== Original comment =========================

Thermal protection needs examination...please.......... by kilkennycat, 824 days ago

Seems as if a fan failure (or blockage of the inlet air passage) could potentially cause catastrophic failure of the critical silicon without effective thermal protection.

Anand, Kris, Tuan:-

Any idea of the nature and effectiveness of the thermal protection -- or wanna carry out a potentially destructive test by blocking up the inlet air on your presumably-rare Xbox360? An important issue for the TYPICAL technically-naive purchaser of the Xbox360, who is likely to be very careless about the Xbox360 ventilation and certainly will forget to regularly clear the inlet air-holes of sticky crud and junk. And what about the close-packed-finned heat-sink on the CPU? Such heat sinks on PC CPUs fill up completely with lint after about 6-9 months in a typical home environment. The Xbox360 is DELIBERATELY built to be non-user accessible for cleaning or any other purpose. A very big mistake. The internal air-duct should have been built on to a user-removable cover to expose the heat-sinks and fans for routine cleaning. I have had my share of cleaning out PCs that have become completely blocked up with crud, the first obvious symptom being erratic shut-down of the CPU by the motherboard thermal protection. The Xbox360 dissipates a lot of power in the core silicon --- much more than the old Xbox.

At present, I highly recommend taking a 2-year extended replacement warranty on the Xbox360, so that WHEN ( not IF) the heat-sinks fill up with junk (or the fans fail) and the box begins to function erratically, the owner can get a brand-new one :-) :-) :-)

================ end of original comment============

In a later comment, I pointed out the close proximity of the DVD drive to the (super-hot) CPU and GPU heat-sinks. The electro-mechanics of a DVD drive are just as thermally critical as the electro-mechanics of a hard-disk. The overall electronic packaging and thermal design of the Xbox360 is just plain lousy. And the additional GPU heat-sink is a joke, as it does not attempt to deal with the fundamentals of the problem.

I do have some qualifications as a professional hardware design engineer with extensive exposure to reliability testing. I suppose I should have offered my consultancy services to Microsoft with regard to cleaning up the Xbox360 design. A small fraction of that $1 billion dollars write-off would have given me some security in my retirement :-) :-)

I would be quite happy to consult with Microsoft on any future redesign of the Xbox360. No doubt the Xbox720 with an integrated Blu-ray drive and a re-hashed graphics (Dx9/Dx10) graphics engine cannot be too far away.

With regard to your current comments on the reliability of your present units:- Are they in a typical home environment, where lint, dog/cat-hair and non-ideal ventilation are likely to occur? Certainly all the fan-ventilated electronic equipment in my home - our various PCs - need a thorough heat-sink clean every nine months or so, otherwise the BIOS alarms (set reasonably conservatively) start wailing - and those high-density heat-sinks on the CPU and GPU are indeed found to be choked full of junk.


RE: Flawed?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/18/2008 6:08:05 PM , Rating: 2
Haha -- I remember that comment. I thought I wrote you an email back.

I'm not sure if we ever ran an article on it, but we sent a few RROD 360s to electric diagnostic labs. Most confirmed the rupture of the traces from the GPU to the CPU, or somewhere in that vicinity.

I don't think we ever saw mechanical failure of the DVD drive due to overheating. But yeah, as you pointed out, most of those other failures were pretty obvious :)

Good work!


RE: Flawed?
By pomaikai on 2/19/2008 9:56:08 AM , Rating: 2
I won a 360 shortly after launch and it failed after about 1 year. I am actually thinking about picking up another one. The warranty process was so smooth that the failure rate will not deter me from picking up another one. When my 360 went out I went online and filled out a form. 2 days later a box came with a return box, tape, padding, prefilled out/prepaid shipping label, instructions. Within 5 minutes I had the 360 in the box taped up and ready to be dropped of at UPS. 3 weeks later I ended up with a new 360. Some people cant go 3 weeks without playing a game. Those people need to get a life.


RE: Flawed?
By jonrem on 2/19/2008 12:13:57 PM , Rating: 2
I commend Microsoft for how fast, easy and convenient it was getting my Xbox fixed, but I got some crappy refurb back that sounded like a jet engine. It is too distracting to even use. I can crank my speakers and still hear it. I've stopped playing 360 because of the noise, and I have 20 something games for it. It's not a RROD issue, so there is no recourse for me.


RE: Flawed?
By Samus on 2/19/2008 4:06:03 AM , Rating: 2
My XBOX is a launch box and it has probably 10,000 hours of use by now. Not a single problem.


RE: Flawed?
By joemoedee on 2/19/2008 8:40:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
My XBOX is a launch box and it has probably 10,000 hours of use by now. Not a single problem.


This is one argument/statement that I've seen numerous times here and on other forums.

I'm certain many others are in your boat, whereas a strong portion of users have had problems.

No one has said that all fail, it's just clear a large group of them have failed, or will fail in the future. This is evident by MS extending the warranty for the RROD failures, and is the only true fact we have to go on as far as the reliability of the console at this time.

One person's experience can not be parlayed into an overview of total experience.

Ex: My sister bought a new 1989 Hyundai Excel, which she had no problems with for 8 years.

However, statistically, it was one of the least reliable cars on the road at the time.

Due to her experience, you can not conclude that it was a reliable car for all of those that owned the car. It just was a reliable car for her. She was one of the lucky ones.

The same goes for those that have had a reliable Xbox 360. I certainly hope that it remains reliable for you, just like that old Hyundai Excel. ;p


RE: Flawed?
By lexluthermiester on 2/19/2008 2:42:05 PM , Rating: 1
Kris, glad you had better luck than me. I went through three, two at Best Buy and a third at Circuit City. After all three died, I decided to get a PS3. And what do you know?.. It worked the first time and has been working for about a year now. I've been using it as an all-in-one kind of system. It has Yellow Dog Linux installed as well as playing PS3 games and watching BD movies. It also does a good job upscaling my DVD collection. It is truly a sweet machine. XB360 has a handful of good games going for it... I think I'm going to stick with my Wii, PC and PS3. MS simply hasn't done very well in the past couple of years. Wonder why?...


RE: Flawed?
By wolfpack1825 on 2/19/08, Rating: 0
RE: Flawed?
By jonrem on 2/19/2008 5:42:38 PM , Rating: 2
I consider myself partial to Microsoft but there is a big problem. The fact that Microsoft has lost hundreds of millions rectifying this situation is better proof than anything your buddies on Live say.


RE: Flawed?
By lexluthermiester on 2/20/2008 5:29:09 PM , Rating: 1
Um, let's get things straight;

First, I'm a Nintendo fay boy[we call ourselves Nintendites, LOL!]. I love my Wii and NDS. I only said I admire what Sony has done with PS2 and PSP. The PS3 does rock! Show me ANY other game console as versatile as the PS3. Really, I dare you to try.... I honestly wish Nintendo would do something similar.

Second, Facts are facts. The defective rate for the 360 at one point was as high as 50% and is currently at 16%. 16 fricken percent!?! And after 2 and 1/2 years of manufacturing! That is pathetic by anyones standards and is the highest defective rate of ANY game console ever[PS1 formerly held that honor]! By way of comparison, the Wii and PS3 both are 3% and 4% defective rates. When the PS3 was first released it had a few over heating issues, which were quickly solved. The Wii hasn't had any issues at all[I don't count the wrist strap thing].

Third, "Real Gamers" play on the system they like best, whether it be a PC, a game console or a portable system. Being a "real gamer" is to have a passion for games, not an obsession with which system is best.

Fourth, Wolfpack1825, glad to hear that you've been problem free, good for you! But things for Microsoft ARE as bad as they seem. Calling me a "FAN BOI", which implies an insult, only shows the world how much of an ego you have, and clearly demonstrates your lack of maturity. Furthermore, your implication that "real gamers" only play on a 360 is one of the most ignorant and retarded statements I've read in some time. Thank You for giving me one seriously good laughing session. Feel free to do that again, laugh is good for the soul...


RE: Flawed?
By oab on 2/18/2008 5:02:46 PM , Rating: 2
It doesn't take in all 360's into consideration, only MS has that number. This number takes into account the numbers that this company had, presumably for their extended-warranty service plans that they covered.


RE: Flawed?
By mondo1234 on 2/18/2008 6:07:32 PM , Rating: 2
MS should blow off buying Yahoo and fix this instead.


RE: Flawed?
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/18/2008 6:10:08 PM , Rating: 2
In a way Microsoft did -- a 1.1 billion dollar program and formal apology:

http://www.dailytech.com/Microsoft+Extends+Warrant...


RE: Flawed?
By mondo1234 on 2/18/08, Rating: -1
RE: Flawed?
By Oregonian2 on 2/18/2008 8:57:48 PM , Rating: 2
Hard to fix the failure rate on machines already out there. Which is why stats ONLY on new machines is what would be interesting because its only those that show how much progress Microsoft has had. Even if 100% of every new machine worked perfectly for the next century, repair depot stats would go down only slowly. And that would be the best they could do even theoretically.


RE: Flawed?
By robinthakur on 2/19/08, Rating: -1
RE: Flawed?
By theapparition on 2/19/2008 7:23:36 AM , Rating: 3
Complete BS.

Product recalls are only made when a product is a safety hazard and can cause personal injury. If the 360 was prone to catching fire, then it would be recalled, similar to what battery manufacturer's had to do recently.

Product warranties are meant to fix products in the event of failure due to materials or workmanship.

Seems pretty clear that this is a warranty issue, not a recall issue.


RE: Flawed?
By lexluthermiester on 2/20/2008 5:48:23 PM , Rating: 2
One of the few moves MS did right.


RE: Flawed?
By kelmon on 2/19/2008 5:34:19 AM , Rating: 2
The ship has sailed for me on this console. Regardless of what happens in the future the 360 was clearly a badly designed system rushed out the door to counter the PS3. When quality is not a factor in a systems development then I will not have anything to do with it. I wish Microsoft good luck on the successor and hope that they learn their lesson from this.


RE: Flawed?
By pomaikai on 2/19/2008 9:49:54 AM , Rating: 2
And PS3 was rushed out the door to compete with the 360. The only thing I heard for awhile was how good it was at Folding.


RE: Flawed?
By joemoedee on 2/19/2008 6:54:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
How many 360s does this statistic take into consideration?


Also, I am assuming this is SquareTrade's own warranty claims. Do they handle all of the warranty issues for MS? If not, I'm certain that the numbers are off as some that would even buy their warranty would go through MS instead.

Additionally, is this from launch or from some other arbitrary rate?

Logic would say from launch the numbers were higher, and subsequently have lowered due to each hardware revision.

I put it at this. A lot have failed, and a good bit more will continue to do so. MS is paying a lot of money to fix the problem.

If you want a 360, be warned that its reliability is lower than a PS3. How much lower? Only MS knows and they certainly will not release such information unless there's a successful lawsuit against them, and it's court ordered to release the actual numbers.

To try to put out some arbitrary failure percentage without all the actual data is useless.


RE: Flawed?
By theapparition on 2/19/2008 7:40:13 AM , Rating: 2
I find this report to be suspect in many ways. This information is solely based on their own data.

First off, they based it on a "sample size" of 1000 units. They are a warranty company........they should have readilly available data on total extended warranties purchased vs. the number of claims received.

Also of note is, of that 16% failure rate, only 60% of that is from RROD. That puts RROD failures under 10%.

I'm not trying to draw a conclusion, just that this report is suspect and incomplete.

quote:
Do they handle all of the warranty issues for MS?

Funny, Microsoft has never heard of them and also disputes this report.

quote:
To try to put out some arbitrary failure percentage without all the actual data is useless.

Well said.


"If you can find a PS3 anywhere in North America that's been on shelves for more than five minutes, I'll give you 1,200 bucks for it." -- SCEA President Jack Tretton














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki