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Print 184 comment(s) - last by feraltoad.. on Jan 27 at 10:37 PM

Xbox 360 team skipped quality testing of console to beat Sony to market

Last summer, amidst a flurry of reports from Xbox 360 gamers, DailyTech exposed retailers’ estimates that up to one-third of Xbox 360 consoles experience hardware failures within the first year of ownership. Just days after the report, Microsoft extended its warranty to cover the specific hardware failure for three years from purchase.

Now, six months later, a supposed Microsoft insider confirms that around 30% of Xbox 360 consoles, most based on the original ‘Xenon’ design, fail. “It's around 30 percent, and all will probably fail early,” the source told 8Bit Joystick. “This quarter they are expecting 1M failures, most of those Xenons. Some of those are repeat failures.”

Although Microsoft now covers all Xbox 360 consoles for three years against the Red Ring of Death (RROD) – the sign of a hardware failure – there is no specific time frame for the defect to appear. “Life expectancy is all over the map because the design has very little margin for most of the important parameters,” continued the insider. “That means it's not a fault tolerant design. So a good unit may last a couple of years, while a bad unit can fail in hours.”

Prior to the warranty extensions enacted by Microsoft, the Xbox 360 shipped with only a 90-day warranty. Some of those with failed hardware outside of the warranty period took matters in their own hands and almost unanimously discovered that the failure was due to inadequate cooling of entire system (particularly the GPU), leading to overstressed components.

 “RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board,” said the source, confirming user findings. “The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.”

Microsoft quickly attempted to rectify the hardware flaw by incorporating a redesigned heatsink to better cool the GPU. A die-shrink to 65nm would also help solve heat issues, though the much anticipated ‘Falcon’ design only featured a 65nm CPU, while the GPU remained at 90nm. The GPU shrink to 65nm is planned later this year in the ‘Jasper’ redesign.

While the above topic points are generally known by the Xbox 360 user community, what comes more alarmingly from the supposed member of the Xbox 360 project is that Microsoft allegedly launched its console fully aware of a potential issue in quality.

“First, MS has under resourced that product unit in all engineering areas since the very beginning. Especially in engineering support functions like test, quality, manufacturing, and supplier management,” the source wrote in an email. “There just weren't enough people to do the job that needed to be done. The leadership in many of those areas was also lopsided in essential skills and experience. But I hear they are really trying to staff up now based on what has happened, and how cheap staff is compared to a couple of billion in cost of quality.”

Microsoft had to take an over $1 billion USD charge to cover the Red Ring of Death defect warranty, which last year cost the company’s Entertainment and Devices Division a $1.89 billion USD loss. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer termed the warranty coverage charge as “painful” to announce.

During the previous generation, Microsoft attributed much of PlayStation 2’s lead over the Xbox to its earlier arrival on the market. Microsoft was determined to beat Sony to the punch for the next generation, as the source explained, “MS was so focused on beating Sony this cycle that the 360 was rushed to market when all indications were that it had serious flaws. The design [quality] testing was insufficient and incomplete when the product was released to production. The manufacturing test equipment had major gaps in test coverage and wasn't reliable or repeatable. Manufacturing processes at [all] levels of suppliers were immature and not in control. Initial end to end yields were in the mid 30%. Low yields always indicate serious design and manufacturing defects.

“Management chose to continue to ship anyways, and keep the lines running while trying to solve problems and bring the yields up. Whenever something failed and there was a question about whether the test result was false, they would remove that test, retest and ship, or see if the unit would boot a game and run briefly and then ship. [The] 360 is too complex of a machine to get away with that.”

In hindsight, the Xbox 360 project team likely wishes that it had paid closer attention to its processes – though the fierce competition of the industry fueled their desire to take shortcuts. “In the end I think it was fear of failure, ambition to beat Sony, and the arrogance that they could figure anything out, that led to the decision to keep shipping,” the insider revealed. “Plus, they tend to make big decisions like that in terms of dollars. They would rationalize that if the first few million boxes had a high failure rate, a few 10's of millions of dollars would cover it. And contrasting that cost with a big lead on Sony, would pay it in a heartbeat.”

According to the Microsoft insider, the new ‘Falcon’ Xbox 360 hardware is far more reliable than the original ‘Xenon.’ “I've heard that the failure rates for the current design is sub 10%. Much much better, but still too high ... And those designs haven't seen much life yet, so no one knows if that failure rate will hold,” explained the source, adding that future revisions are in the cards. “They will come out with new hardware at least once a year until they retire this design. That's the console financial model. Keep the features and functionality the same, reduce cost and price, and improve quality if needed.”

With the Xbox 360 being the leading console in North America and the choice for gamers looking for a complete online service, Microsoft’s next focus should clearly be on getting consumers to trust the hardware.

Bill Gates said recently that it is now Microsoft’s goal to make the Xbox 360 the “most reliable” console on the market. “We've got incredible reliability on the new work we've done,” said the Microsoft chairman. “Our commitment is that it will be the most reliable video game box out there. People really love the Xbox because of the content, but we've got to make sure that the hardware never stands in the way of that.”





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It's a gamble to companies that size
By Bioniccrackmonk on 1/24/2008 10:15:57 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
While the above topic points are generally known by the Xbox 360 user community, what comes more alarmingly from the supposed member of the Xbox 360 project is that Microsoft allegedly launched its console fully aware of a potential issue in quality.


I said it before and I will say it again.

Sony gambled by putting the BR player in the PS3, one that is paying off for them.

MS gambled by rushing their system to be first, and even though there were a lot of dead consoles in the beginning, it still paid off as they have a much more developed game library and their online community is still ahead of the PS3, but not as much as when the PS3 launched.

In the end, consumers still take it in the rear with higher prices and faulty equipment. I guess that is what we pay to be the first on our block to have the next generation.




RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By kelmon on 1/24/2008 11:13:33 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Sony gambled by putting the BR player in the PS3, one that is paying off for them.


Debatable as to how important the Blu-ray player is to customers. Honestly, I'd be willing to wager that the PS3 would have arrived on the market sooner, have sold better and be in an overall better position now if it had been released without the Blu-ray player at a cheaper price. Blu-ray was only a good choice if customers are buying the system for that feature but at the moment the market is still pretty resistant to either Hi-Def format. Perhaps in future Blu-ray will see a high adoption and sales of the PS3 will accelerate due to it but at the end of the day I am sure the PS3 would have been much more established in the console market without it.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 11:36:15 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah agree'd and although Bluray could help PS3 sales (possibly) as a gaming console they are DEAD last in games per console sold. MS has a SEVEN game attachment rate per console making it #1. Wii is #2 with around 5 games.. I'm not sure PS3 has broken the 3 game per console or still at 2'ish ..

Also.. other companies can add bluray players to their future consoles ( if needed ) .. Sony has stated PS3 is meant to last.. but they will change their minds when it Nintendo, MS release their NEW Next Gen consoles in 3 more yrs and make PS3 look outdated.. especially like I said when those companies can add Bluray inexpensively to their consoles ( more cheaply - providing bluray does win ) - In effect letting SOny do all the work before they come out with Cheaper more profitable Gaming/BLuray players.. LOL


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By joemoedee on 1/24/2008 12:44:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Yeah agree'd and although Bluray could help PS3 sales (possibly) as a gaming console they are DEAD last in games per console sold. MS has a SEVEN game attachment rate per console making it #1. Wii is #2 with around 5 games.. I'm not sure PS3 has broken the 3 game per console or still at 2'ish


A lot of that is relative to the amount of time the system has been out on the market, and we have yet to really see a blockbuster title solely out on the PS3. (Although it's looking like 08 could produce that)

I would sincerely hope the 360 is in the lead, considering the amount of time it's been on the market.

The Wii? Well, it sells so well, thats a no-brainer.

quote:
Also.. other companies can add bluray players to their future consoles ( if needed ) .. Sony has stated PS3 is meant to last.. but they will change their minds when it Nintendo, MS release their NEW Next Gen consoles in 3 more yrs and make PS3 look outdated


Sony, historically, has supported their consoles for 11 years and now 8 years, respectively. They also sold quite well late in their life cycle. Will that change? Maybe. I doubt it though.

If MS runs that short of a life cycle on the 360, they'll never be able to profit on gaming. (Considering the bath they took on the first Xbox, and still being in the red on the 360)

Nintendo's in the best position of all, they can pretty much do whatever. They're profiting on the Wii, and will only make more on it as time goes on. I do not see them pushing for another console in the near future, due to the current level of success that does not look to be fading anytime soon.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 1:44:52 PM , Rating: 2
You're Wrong.

If you look at the history of the Xbox 360 it's had a High attachment rate from the very beginning ! The PS3 also wa snoted as having a low attachgment rate since release of console. In Nov 2006 (when 360) was released it started out at 3 games per console ! The PS3 was avg 1 game per console on its release ! So your epinions which lacks facts or data don't hold alot of light.

Yes, Wii does sell alot, but its exclusively a gaming unit with a healthy price anyone can afford. So its attachment rate is high.

I know approximately 8 people ( relatives and friends ) who have 360's and all have tons of games.. NONE ave an hd-dvd player.

I have 3 relatives who have PS3's .. One of those also has the 360.. all of them say right now game choices aren't as good and all of them have some Bluray movies. This is coming from them cause I could care less.

To me is appears people are buying PS3 knowing even if games arent good yet they can play BLuray movies. Even though world wide scale PS3 is selling as many units as the 360.. its popularity is better in countries where High Def is more prevelant which again says highh def movies are helping sell this thing.
.
I've played Resistance .. I liked the graphics, but didnt like the lack for force feedback.. I played Rachet and Clank, not bad either.. but not enough to buy one yet.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By BansheeX on 1/25/08, Rating: 0
By joemoedee on 1/25/2008 3:52:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Stop using attachment rates, they're totally inapplicable to the PS3 because of its integrated hi-def playback. If you have many PS3s being bought just to play movies, it's going to drive the games-per-unit average down. The game "attach-rates" on the PS3 are naturally going to be lower than the 360 and Wii, which don't have integrated hi-def playback affecting their "attach-rate."


I have no idea why you got voted down, as your post makes perfect sense.


By joemoedee on 1/25/2008 4:15:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you look at the history of the Xbox 360 it's had a High attachment rate from the very beginning ! The PS3 also wa snoted as having a low attachgment rate since release of console. In Nov 2006 (when 360) was released it started out at 3 games per console ! The PS3 was avg 1 game per console on its release ! So your epinions which lacks facts or data don't hold alot of light.


<sarcasm>

Wii is at 8, it must be so much better than a 360 now.

</sarcasm>

Attachment rate isn't always a great thing. It means the people that own a console, really love their console. It doesn't mean that the console is doing really well overall.

Xbox 360 gamers, its core audience, are a different breed.

Their attention span is pretty light. Before I get flamed to a crisp, let me explain as I speak in generalities...

They love the latest and greatest. A new FPS comes out, they all go out and buy it. Play the hell out of it for a month, and when the next new FPS comes out, jump on that. (Outside of the Halo series, obviously)

Wash, rinse, repeat.

The Xbox and Xbox 360 core gamers are hardcore. They are going to buy a ton of games. (The addition of achievements was brilliant by MS, btw. I know many people that would purchase a lousy game just to improve their gamer score.)

I know I bought a bunch of games when I got my Xbox, still do buy a few at a time. I did the same when I owned a 360. (Same with Dreamcast, etc, etc.) I'm not the mainstream gamer, nor really is anyone on this thread.

What Sony was able to do with the PS1 and PS2 so well is appeal to the general gaming audience.

Much like Nintendo was able to do with the NES and SNES, and now are doing with the Wii.

The PS3 is a hardcore gaming machine at this time. The 360 is as well. Until they get into a mainstream price, it remains to be seen which will fully take off.

We're still a good bit away from this happening.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 2:01:58 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Sony, historically, has supported their consoles for 11 years and now 8 years, respectively. They also sold quite well late in their life cycle. Will that change? Maybe. I doubt it though.


As technology gets cheaper and progresses faster I think console lifespans will be shorter. People used to get new PC's every 5yrs maybe since 1995 when it took off.. Game developers are thge ones who push the hardware envelop to get better.. which is one reason why some of the best games are still on PC only.

The pendelum of this is also coming to gaming consoles. At the 80% mark of PS2's height of power .. Sony only had Nintendo to compete with. At the time Nintendo was barely doingh it. They never expected a 3rd player. Now Nintendo is back financially and with developer support. What fueled the whole anti Nintendo with developers back then was N64 used crtridges and this mad many devs hgo to PS2 where profit margins were MUCH higher - not because of superior hardware. But now Sony has two much healthier competitors .. both of which ( Nintendo and MS ) have sold much more then their previous generation has in the same as many yrs ..

This ups the stakes and competetion. The PS1 was great.. it came out at the righgt time with a DVD player which was already an established format.. it competed against inferior N64 which had cartridges and turned off developer support for Nintendo.. there was no one else Sony had to worry about. PS2 competed against game cube - which still lacked game support as well as a hgome DVD player. Xbox1 came too late.

Now MS AND Nintndo have much more developer support and ins ome cases more then Sony.. which affects game choices. Its pretty much a give in both MS and Nintendo will come out with a better console in 4 or 5 yrs .. So maybe yeah before they (Sony) could let it ride 10 yrs.. thgey had relatively mild competition during their glory yrs.. I dont thgink its the same now.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Alexstarfire on 1/24/2008 4:06:28 PM , Rating: 2
Uhh, the PS1 didn't have DVD playback on it. It only had CDs. The first console with DVD support was the PS2.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 5:02:37 PM , Rating: 2
oops yea i did say DVD.. but it was CD I meant - that increased developers cash flow and stole Nintendo developers who were used to losing 20 dollars off the top tat was lost to cartridge electronic components cost..


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Alexstarfire on 1/24/2008 10:20:39 PM , Rating: 3
I'm not sure if that's true, but I felt that they stayed with cartridges more because of piracy concerns. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it seems plausible to me. I mean, do you know anyone who didn't pirate some PS1 games? It certainly didn't take a lot of skill to do so. Cartridges are nearly impossible to pirate. It's not that you can't, but it'd be much more expensive. A home user wouldn't pirate them in other words.

CDs certainly had more space, but the N64 had some of the best games IMO. The PS1 had tons more games in general, but the N64 had Perfect Dark, Goldeneye, Super Smash Brothers, and several others. They were both great consoles though, so don't get me wrong on that.


By HighWing on 1/25/2008 1:11:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
but I felt that they stayed with cartridges more because of piracy concerns.


While I won't argue that might have been part of it, I'm willing to bet it was more of a legal issue. After all it is a well known fact that the PS1 was originally going to be the N64, but at the last min Nintendo backed out and Sony decided to go ahead and launch the system anyways. So my guess is that Nintendo was probably also worried that if they went ahead and launched a CD system now, they could possibly face legal issues from Sony and the deal they backed out of.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ani4ani on 1/24/2008 5:08:49 PM , Rating: 1
If you take care to look at the sales numbers for the respective consoles you will see that within 2-3 weeks at current selling rates the PS3 will surpass 360 sales outside NA, i.e. take all sales areas outside NA and the PS3 will overtake the 360 despite being on the market for half the time.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 5:17:16 PM , Rating: 1
Ok show me your math ? YOU're WRONG .. Read my whole post..

Right now about 18 to 19 million Xbox 360's out there worldwide.. 8-9 million PS3's worldwide out there..

Both consoles selling around 300,000 unit a month worldwide. PS3 the last few weeks has sold a few more thousand.. Being there are already 8 million more 360's out there worldwide then PS3s... If TODAY RIGHT now PS3 outsold 360 by 300,000 units.. meaning 360 did 300,000 a month and PS3 did 600,000 a month every single month.. it would take Sony almost 3 yrs to break even with 360's OVERALL sales of consoles out there in consumers hands..

Its more likely it'll take PS3 about 4 yrs to break even.. and MS will have a new better console out there again by thgen to whip Sony old PS3 ass


By winterspan on 1/25/2008 1:53:51 AM , Rating: 3
read the damn post!
He didn't say global sales , he said sales outside of North America. I thought he explained quite explicitly what he was referring to.


By joemoedee on 1/25/2008 4:01:45 PM , Rating: 2
It's clear you love the Xbox 360.

That's great. Congratulations. It's a fun console. (I own an Xbox. I've owned a 360)

However, you also have to consider the following...

The 8 year old PS2 is selling in a volume very close to what the 360 is doing. Still.

Sony's strategy during the PS1 > PS2 transition was to continue to support the PS1 until PS2 took hold. It worked.

It's history repeating itself. PS2 selling well, still getting new games. PS3 has had it's mis-steps, but seems to be heading in the right direction. (Some reports have the PS2 being supported for another 2 years. Which is, well, basically the same thing they did with the PS1)

For anyone to count Sony out at this point would be silly. They have a strong selling PS2 after 8 years on the market. PS3 is moving, albeit not as quickly as anticipated. PSP's doing well, too.

Also, MS does not have the Asian market support, which means a lot.

It's definitely a long "race" still yet to be determined.


By BAFrayd on 1/24/2008 10:11:14 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, and then Sony will be laughing as they collect a licensing fee for each of those products that contain Blu-Ray technology...


By BansheeX on 1/25/2008 3:23:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yeah agree'd and although Bluray could help PS3 sales (possibly) as a gaming console they are DEAD last in games per console sold. MS has a SEVEN game attachment rate per console making it #1. Wii is #2 with around 5 games.. I'm not sure PS3 has broken the 3 game per console or still at 2'ish ..


Stop trolling the boards please with attach-rates. Integrated hi-def drives games-per-unit numbers down on the PS3. The 360 and Wii don't have people buying their systems as movie players because they lack the integrated feature, so nothing is driving down their "attach-rate."

quote:
MS release their NEW Next Gen consoles in 3 more yrs and make PS3 look outdated..


One of the great things about consoles and the Playstation model before MS came in was the long lifespan and not having to worry about upgrading every two years like the PC. A seven year spec is the most manageable and sensible situation for developers. That you would want MS to release a new console every five years just to maintain technical superiority shows me how little you actually care about so called gaming and affordability.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Shlong on 1/24/2008 11:51:00 AM , Rating: 2
Well would Sony enjoy the current success Blu-Ray is having over HD-DVD if not for the inclusion on PS3? There console sales are low but that's the risk they took to try to win the format war. This year should be better for PS3 as some games I actually want to play are coming out for it.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By kelmon on 1/24/2008 12:31:57 PM , Rating: 2
Success is relative. Yes, Blu-ray is currently appearing to be more successful than HD-DVD, but what is that really worth since neither format has exactly fired the consumer market to adoption? Is it worth more than being #1 in the console market right now? I really think that the PS3 would be the best selling console right now had it not bothered with Blu-ray, had released sooner, and sold at a cheaper price. And let's not forget that this years great games you would have been playing last year.


By Shlong on 1/24/2008 1:45:26 PM , Rating: 2
I think Wii would still be king while PS3 would be slightly behind Xbox 360 if Sony had released it sooner. Currently what's holding PS3 back the most is the lack of quality games. While the Xbox 360 would've still had Gears of War, Halo 3 - the PS3 content library would probably be pretty much the same. I think winning the format war was their top priority so their console suffered. If Blu-ray ultimately becomes the winner, they will be rewarded with that sacrifice as the market grows. Like I said before though, PS3 will actually have some games worth playing (metal gear for one) this year.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By winterspan on 1/25/2008 2:00:40 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, success is relative. But you are missing some KEY points here.

1)To assume that since HD media hasn't taken off yet, it must have been a poor decision to include Blu-ray in the PS3 is totally asinine.

The quite OBVIOUS reason that HD media hasn't sold well is because of the format war. You really can't comprehend such an easy concept?

2) Sony winning the format war with Blu-ray is worth exponentially more revenue than beating the Xbox. Go take a look at how many DVDs were sold globally in 2007.


By zpdixon on 1/24/2008 1:04:50 PM , Rating: 5
quote:

Blu-ray was only a good choice if customers are buying the system for that feature but at the moment the market is still pretty resistant to either Hi-Def format.


What do you know ? Perhaps the millions of PS3 consoles flooding the market helped Blu-ray get a slight edge over HD-DVD, which then got bigger and bigger, which in turn made Warner Bros support Blu-ray, assuring its definitive success over HD-DVD.

Seen in this perspective, putting a Blu-ray player on the PS3 to create a HD market that will be worth $10+ billion in a couple years was arguably and strategically a very good move for Sony.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Martimus on 1/24/2008 3:59:00 PM , Rating: 2
I would say that it was a good choice, but not to sell the PS3. It was good for Sony, because it pushed BluRay and was the main driving force behind it having such good numbers. If BluRay does win the "war", then that is a much bigger market to tap than the console market. The current HD media market is not very large, but with the heavy adoption of HDTV's over the last few years, HD media will probably be a big cash cow for Sony in a few years.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 4:00:28 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, but that is a market the PS3 it's self will (or at least should) eventually lose out on to SA's. In fact I think sony's CE partners will be quite upset if they keep losing to the PS3.


By winterspan on 1/25/2008 2:12:19 AM , Rating: 2
Is that supposed to be a counterpoint?
Of COURSE standalone players will eclipse the PS3 during the next few years... You are interpreting this wrong. Or at least your statement made it look as if you think Sony placed Blu-ray in the console to sell PS3s.
On the contrary, the PS3 was used to get Blu-ray into homes. Now that they are going to win the format war, they could care less about standalone players being bought to play movies instead of the PS3... Their money comes from the licensing royalties of every single Blu-ray disc and player.

Now of course they still want to sell PS3s to game players who will buy games (and thus give PS3 licensing royalties to Sony).


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By feraltoad on 1/24/2008 4:26:54 PM , Rating: 2
Also, since I might still buy a PS3 just for movies won't that actually hurt them? At the onset of the Format War the PS3 was good, but now I would only think it could hurt since they could sell a standalone BR player for much cheaper than a PS3, and not lose money on the things.

One gripe: no IR receiver on the PS3! Sure make BT an option for remotes; it would be great for the future. However right now there isn't a universal remote that does BT. How much does an IR receiver cost? Two bucks? Sorry that's off the topic, I've just been contemplating getting a PS3.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By BAFrayd on 1/24/2008 10:23:17 PM , Rating: 2
Well, since you might buy a PS3 "just for the movies", you should just buy a Blu-Ray Disc player instead. Since you will never play a PS3 game, you have no reason to buy a PS3. Or do you enjoy wasting money?


By feraltoad on 1/27/2008 10:16:37 PM , Rating: 2
I play most of my games on a computer, so yes I guess I do enjoy wasting money. I guess I should have said the media capabilities instead of, "just for the movies". But saying "for the media capabilities" would invite geek slaps from passerbys. I like the idea of a networked player, and I think it would be fun to play with. I get a free game rental each month from Blockbuster, so I could use that when friends came over so they wouldn't have to lug a system. Plus, I would probably buy a couple of used games like a racing game or maybe a something like Soul Caliber because I have to admit the soul still burns. Plus, like others have said the PS3 will keep getting firmware updates. So you've called me on it! I am tempted by the overall package, but foremost the movies.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By winterspan on 1/25/2008 2:18:32 AM , Rating: 2
I agree to a certain extent. But even those who buy a PS3 for the BD player may eventually want more value out of their purchase and start buying games in the future; especially since 2008 is looking to be a big year.
Not a gamer? I assume Sony will either have their own movie rental service or hook up with NetFlix.
That would be another potential source of non-game revenue.
Also, their costs have come way down to almost break even, so they should eventually even make a small profit off of just the hardware.

BTW, anyone know what Sony is making off of PS2 hardware? profit? break even? loss?


By feraltoad on 1/27/2008 10:37:24 PM , Rating: 2
Blockbuster's online service has both BluRay and HDDVD movies. I get HDDVD from them right now. None of my local stores carry either, though which sucks.

PS2 profit was said to be as much as $30 according to forum hearasy on http://www.joystiq.com/2006/12/07/npd-big-franchis...

Pretty much everyone on gaming sites discussing Sony's profits was saying PS2 was helping to offset to the profit loss from the PS3 the years previous (didn't say if that was just h/w-probably lumped together as a divsion). Also, rumor is saying this year will have the PS2 drop to $99 and it should no longer require a power brick (which I didn't know it even had one). I'm sure they've been making profit off the PS2 hardware for quite a while since it has been out so long with so many revisions. Esp, considering the PS3 is now nearing cost.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Belard on 1/24/2008 6:23:28 PM , Rating: 2
While the console market sells in the millions, the consumer player market and movies is where SONY will make the money. Including the BR drive in the PS3 was a factor to destory HD-DVD. Week 2 sales of players (not PS3) is 21K for BR and under 2K for HD-DVD.

The cost of BR included with PS3 is still about $150~300 cheaper than an upgraded-modular added Xbox360 (add wireless, HD-120(20gb totally suck), HD-DVD addon, etc)

Also, there are games for the PS3 that would require 2-3 discs for xbox360.

If MS fixed their problems with the 360 before rushing to market, they would have lost their christmas (MUST HAVE) shopping season. They wanted as MUCH of a head start on the PS3 as possible... PS3 was delayed by around 6-9 months, giving the 360 a year head-start. If they fixed the 360, it would have added at least 4-6 months of development time. By then, many people would have started "waiting to see what the PS3 offered" and not have bought the 360.

So while the 360 has lost billions of dollars, it would not have the market they have now. But I think M$ really screwed their xbox base by killing off the xbox1 so quickly. They killed all new software support, etc. While the PS2 still continues to get new titles and is sold for $100.

Both gambles have paid off in their own way. What would have severely helped SONY and BR group a lot better would have to include a FREE popular BR movie with every PS3 sold - IN THE BOX, since the beginning. Then the consumer would go "oh! I can play movies too!".


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ElrondElvish on 1/25/2008 2:53:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What would have severely helped SONY and BR group a lot better would have to include a FREE popular BR movie with every PS3 sold - IN THE BOX, since the beginning. Then the consumer would go "oh! I can play movies too!".


Thats exactly what they did in the beginning. Talladega Nights was included, in box, upon release. While the movie sucked (and the quality of that particular BD as well), it definitely made an impression that the PS3 was much more than "just" a game machine. And, of course, thats exactly what they're doing now with the Spider Man discs.


By Belard on 1/25/2008 4:07:31 AM , Rating: 2
Hey! Talladega Nights is a good family fun movie!

Hey, I'm from Texas... you wouldn't understand ;)

Perhaps something else should have been included... but that movie was NEW when it came out.


By Alias1431 on 1/24/2008 11:20:32 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, it would have been cheaper and have benefited from more game titles, but Sony didn't make that decision to sell more PS3's. The decision to incorporate blu-ray was a strategy that helped them win the format war, which will be far more profitable in the long run than a console.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By AlphaVirus on 1/24/2008 11:28:51 AM , Rating: 1
If MS did not release the 360 earlier than the PS3, the whole gaming industry would be different. Imagine if they both came out within 3 months of each other, people would be so confused on which to get.
Pricewise - 360
Fuctionality - PS3 (since it included the BR player)
Online - PS3 (since it is all free compared to 360 silver/gold scheme)
Game library - 360, it costs less for devs I believe

I just hope both consoles do well in the long run, they both have good games, both are reliable (now that RROD has been addressed). I think PS3 has a 1% failure rating, mine has locked up 3 times
1. While browsing the net and the website had too much going on, then I tried to open a new window to search something else and it froze.
2. I was playing a game with 2 friends and on the loading screen it just froze. I think that was due to overheating, we were playing like 12 hours that day.
3. Cant quite remember.

GO SONY!!! GO MS!!!


By FITCamaro on 1/24/2008 12:20:28 PM , Rating: 2
PS3's online play may be free but Microsoft's is much more integrated. I'll gladly pay for Xbox Live provided the service stays the high quality its had so far. $45 a year is nothing.


By lukasbradley on 1/24/2008 12:24:03 PM , Rating: 2
While I would have said it a bit differently, this reflects my feelings as well.

I think both consoles will continue to succeed. The differing decisions by both companies have positive and negative effects. The concept some people miss is these two approaches aren't mutually exclusive for the market: both companies will still be "winners."


By jajig on 1/24/2008 12:40:31 PM , Rating: 1
I would choose a Wii instead!

Maybe I'm getting old but I get no fun out of my 360. It's an original that still works like a charm to give you an idea of how little I play it.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 12:25:08 PM , Rating: 5
I think bringing Sony into this is a mistake. The article is a question of business ethics. It doesn't matter if MS ponied up for a three year warranty after the fact. The thing is that they intentionally brought and sold a faulty product to the market without telling the consumer that it was faulty. This is honesty scary territory when we have many people in this thread turning the story around on Sony and absolving MS of any wrongdoing based on the PS3's higher price, and then getting rated up for it. The PS3 had a higher price BECAUSE it didn't opt for cheap heatsinks or a last-gen disc drive. Blu-ray isn't just for movies. Anyone who has compared the noise levels of both consoles has noticed the remarkable noise and heat created by the fast-spinning DVD drive on the 360. Blu-ray with it's higher density doesn't have to spin anywhere near as fast, thus it is much quieter while gaming. You want to fault Sony for those decisions? I think it was a great one. I love the lower noise levels and reliability of the PS3. Am I a freaking lunatic or something? There's nothing ethically repulsive about higher prices for higher quality hardware. Just because you didn't know, couldn't wait, or couldn't afford it doesn't make Sony just as bad in this instance. But I tell you what, as soon as the consumer shows a willingness and forgiveness for this kind of activity, it only invites more of it in the future, and forces competition to do the same in order to compete. When Sony screwed up with the rootkit, people revolted against it, including me, and they stopped. When MS lies and sells faulty hardware, its fans play it down, equate it to high prices, and rationalize it as a necessary evil to get more sales and steal away developers? I don't get it.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By djcameron on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 1:35:00 PM , Rating: 4
Its not a far-fetched idea to believe that Microsoft would pull something like this. Thier whole business model has always been, "Make it first, or make it ours."

What should be scary is the millions that are willing to drop cash blindly at a company with a history of screwing with consumers and businesses alike to further distance themselves above everyone else.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 1:49:51 PM , Rating: 2
Excuse me? Microsoft has lost 1.8B making sure their customers don't get screwed with the 360... I think what this shows is Microsoft terribly misjudging the situation more than them openly trying to screw anyone. Thanks for the FUD though.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By masher2 (blog) on 1/24/2008 2:05:06 PM , Rating: 3
> "And the $1.8B lost could have been much much less if they had spent the equivalent money to test it "

Which pretty much rules out it being an intentional act, eh? Not to mention all the indirect costs from lost sales, and loss of goodwill from the failures.

Every product ever launched has known flaws, problems, and weaknesses. It's impossible to make anything perfect. I'm sure Microsoft knew the cooling wasn't ideal, and might lead to problems. I'm equally sure they had no idea it would be anywhere near this bad.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 2:16:05 PM , Rating: 1
Actually look at it this way:

Microsoft wants to push out their product quickly, so they cut costs in testing and QA to push the system out faster. Their gain could be a couple million less than it was origianlly stated (MS: "Yay! we saved money!"). Now comes a year later and they see that what they pushed out by cutting corners is costing them more (MS: "Boo! We are losing money!").

In essesnce, if they had spent the few extra million to test it, it wouldn't have come to the billions to go back and redo it.

Hence, its their own fault. They intentionally pushed it out, with or without flaws. And they thought maybe it wouldn't have a high failure rate. Thats a bad gamble.


By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 2:18:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Their gain could be a couple million less than it was originally stated *(MS: "Yay! we saved money!").


*(edit)... to manufacture.

Thinking faster than I can write...


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By masher2 (blog) on 1/24/2008 2:42:20 PM , Rating: 4
> "Hence, its their own fault"

No one is arguing that. But claiming that Microsoft had any foreknowledge of just how serious the problem would actually be-- or worse, implying there's criminal culpability involved-- is just plain silly.


By NullSubroutine on 1/27/2008 3:49:55 AM , Rating: 2
I would have to agree but add the decision was probably made by a couple of business executives (who were probably fired because of this) worried about cost cutting and making a bonus for getting the 360 out early.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard business people making 'business' decisions when the engineers or the hardware people are telling them their decision wrong or faulty.


By homeroids on 1/24/2008 5:56:48 PM , Rating: 2
This is my first post so please don't flame me down. I do not wish to come across as a fanboy of any persuasion.

There does seem to be more evidence of MS launching the 360 before it was ready; the fact that there was a major supply issue after Xmas 2005. Ok, some might say that's normal with a new console. Nintendo are still trying to keep up with supply and indeed after their release and even the PS3's release there were supply constraints. Fair enough. But, 3 months of it? And, after selling only 900k all up? That's exactly what happened with the 360. Having 900k for launch and then a desert on supply for at least 3 months doesn't sound right to me. That means a few possibilities:

1. MS knew they only had about a million to go. They chose a Japan and US launch. But why would you launch with such a small number knowing that the next batch would not be coming until March?
2. MS had more than 1 million but many did not pass QA testing.

Either way, a 3 month constraint on supply after launch and with limited launch numbers, speaks issues to me.

Ok, one comparison - Sony launched with only 400k sales in the US due to supply constraint. Yeah, but Sony didn't take 3 months to get the supply chain in order again.


By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 2:32:27 PM , Rating: 2
People need to stop acting like they were trying to intentionally screw customers, Microsoft misjudged the situation... Probalby because they are now in completely un-familiar territory with the 360... A CE device being deisgned and supported in house, this is something they've never really done before and yes they screwed it up, lesson learned for next time.

The reason we didn't see these kinds of issues with the original x-box is only because it was a generic SFF PC, there wasn't a whole lot of anything speacial about it.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 2:55:41 PM , Rating: 1
Buddy is you live in the usa you should be happy there are still a few American companies that can kick some world ass.

GMC couldn't pay their bills the last few yrs - they're billions in the red .. Ford doing better then GMC - profitable - but not by alot. Dodge/Chrysler somewhere in the middle of both, but probably worth less then either.

Most US airline companies arent very profitable.

Then we have Microsoft who has given away BILLIONS because of gates.. Anyone know if Sony even gave away 500 million to thge needy ?? I think there are too many babies posting here who have too many personal problems to see one day in 10 yrs they are going to wake up in a country that is no longher theirs at all.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 3:19:47 PM , Rating: 1
Hey Einstein

Do they MATH.. you save money giving away a few million..
YOU DONT SAVE MONE?Y GIVING AWAY BILLIONS.. YOU LOSE MONEY .. LOTS.. INTEREST ON BILLIONS IS MUCH MUCH MORE THEN a tax break.. FOOL !


By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 3:31:00 PM , Rating: 2
Take some money, put it in a bank with good interest. Now create a charity or 503(c) NPO, and any interest gained give as a donation. Then take the donation, put it in the bank, and regain more interest, take a large % of it as a salary, and actually use the leftovers on something worthwhile.

In the end, the +90% of that initial interest comes back to you, and the other >10% goes off to do what you originally intended the money to be for. So who wins?


By darkblade33 on 1/24/2008 3:24:32 PM , Rating: 2
There's no Tax break benefit to giving away 20 billion.
Millions - yes, a tax break maybe, but not much.


By darkblade33 on 1/24/2008 3:30:36 PM , Rating: 2
And when you do your taxes please don't apply for any available tax breaks or releifs for which you qualify. Afterall, even thouhgh everyone else does it, including middle income families with children, wealthy actors/actresses/businessman/teachers/lawyers/churc hes we couldn't want any of the good people of the world to confuse you with one of the bad people who hide behind a desk by giving away money. No we surely wouldnt want that.
I wait, no one knows you exist, nevermind.


By winterspan on 1/25/2008 2:29:06 AM , Rating: 3
so now MS fanboys are resorting to whipping up nationalism to excuse MS's bad policies? my god...


By BansheeX on 1/25/2008 3:04:58 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Then we have Microsoft who has given away BILLIONS because of gates.. Anyone know if Sony even gave away 500 million to thge needy ?? I think there are too many babies posting here who have too many personal problems to see one day in 10 yrs they are going to wake up in a country that is no longher theirs at all.


Oh, for christ's sake. This entitlement mentality is WHY we are losing ground internationally. Most people don't buy something simply out of nationalism. If Japan makes a better car, I'm buying the better car. Then that creates an incentive for auto makers here to make better cars. I'm not going to support bad business practices simply because that business is located in America. And as for Gates' philanthropy, there are two important distinctions you fail to understand:

1. Gates is the founder of Microsoft and is himself a billionaire philanthropist. Sony's founder is long dead and they operate as a corporation, which is incapable of doing the same. Plus that, like any corporation, they benefit society by making life easier or more enjoyable. Something like folding@home on the PS3 also benefits science indirectly and they're not even involved in that field.

2. Someone giving away billions to fight AIDS in Africa doesn't legally absolve them of wrongdoing, and it certainly shouldn't make us accept unethical behavior with regards to concealing 360 defects from consumers in order to sell more units. I mean, that's insanity. That's the "end justifies the means" argument. Like, if I perform experimental testing which kills thousands of people and end up saving millions. It's ethically retarded to think that way.

In short, you are the biggest MS troll on these boards.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Alexstarfire on 1/24/2008 1:35:48 PM , Rating: 1
That's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. Do you even know how much a heatsink costs? I'd be surprised if it was more than $2 even with a fan included. It's not like they are making Thermalright Ultra 120s over here, it's hardly more than a block of metal with some cuts in it.

I think that both MS and Sony were stupid as hell this time around. If MS intentionally pushed the 360 knowing that it had bad equipment and would lead to faulty consoles then they are just retarded in my book. It's actually the reason I won't even touch a 360 now, though I still hate the controllers a lot. They may have minimized the problem now, but I'm not gonna take any chances. I'd rather not have to go through all that sh!t just to get my console replaced, even if it is for free.

As for Sony and the Blu-Ray thing. Another stupid move in my book. I had DVD before the PS2 even came out so it wasn't anything extra. Don't forget that the Xbox had DVD playback as well, though it came out after the PS2. What can blu-ray offer than DVD can't, game wise? Not much really. It's got better graphics and more cut-scenes going for it, but that's all I see. Neither one of those is needed for a great game. In fact, I skip the cut-scenes in nearly every game, because most of the time they are just pointless.

I can say that's it's typical for Sony to push it's own format instead of adopting some one else's format. I'm glad they see the need to be the most selfish company. They probably just wake up and go, "Hey, how can we screw the customers today? I know, let's make yet another format to keeps prices high. That should work nicely." Other than Blu-Ray having more storage it's not better than HD-DVD, unless you like region coding and such. It certainly isn't cheaper, which is why HD-DVD should have just been allowed to win. Damn, why can't they just let us have the cheaper next-gen products?


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 2:34:22 PM , Rating: 2
Gimping due to lack of resources? Let me guess, sony fanboy?


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 2:39:15 PM , Rating: 1
Nope. I just like playing complete video games. Something about getting half the game I paid for doesn't sit well with me...

Maybe it does with others, but thats ok. Its your money.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 3:53:44 PM , Rating: 2
Please, expand on this "half the game" theory, explain in full detail... Please avoid supporting arguments like "ZOMGCELLPROCESSORROXORSIMAKELOVETOMYSONY".


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 4:01:57 PM , Rating: 1
Capcom has already announced that due to the limitations of the media, the 360 version will get the 1st half of the game. No Dante, no extra missions, nothing else.

The PS3's usage of the BD media allows them to place the full game onto the disc and have all the extras they could want.

50GB > 9GB.

This has nothing to do with hardware. Capcom was at first going to just release to the 360 because it was easier for them to program to it, but later announced that they wanted to do more than just a single side of the story. If you ever played any of the DMC series (except the first game), there is almost always more than one way to play the game. The 360 version will not have it. The PS3 version will.

So who's got egg on their face for not adopting a higher capacity format? Who lost out on a valuable exclusive market? (It was slated to be a 360 exclusive until this news hit.)


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 4:21:33 PM , Rating: 2
Second game disc? Downloadable content?


By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 4:35:35 PM , Rating: 2
A second game disc? in this day an age? Thats so old skool. And to match the content, you'd need 4-5 DVDs to match 1 BD.

As to downloadable content, its inevitable. More guns, more skins, more clothes, etc. etc... It greatly depends on any contract Capcom has with either Sony or MS to provide content online. And so far, I haven't really seen much in the way of content on either platform.


By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 4:40:50 PM , Rating: 1
He's full of shit unlesss he can produce a Capcom link stating what he said.

Its nothing to do wish media limitations. Camcom said they wanted to give PS3 some extra content because the game was originally a PS3 exclusive.

Ive read in fact Capcom made thgat statement overseas to make those fans over there happy to buy the game as thgey've already spent millions on ghame development which would go to waste.

I expect Capcom will have downloadable content for 360 users.. Im almost betting since in the USA DMC4 will definately outsell PS3 version where here in the states PS3 numbers are about a 1/4 of 360's..

Since there are about 7-8 million more 360's out there worldwide.. you'd expect DMC4 to sell many more units for campcom on the 360 !


By ani4ani on 1/24/2008 5:16:32 PM , Rating: 3
on the 5 millions arcades and cores?


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 7:28:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If devs put a game on Bluray.. lets just say 50 Gigs for your sake.. those disc cost about 30 dollars a disc!


quote:
25 Gig Bluray disc whgich still run 18-20 dollars per disc..


Blu-ray discs do NOT cost anywhere NEAR that much to manufacture. Where in the bloody hell did you come up with that figure? Let me guess, you're citing the retail prices of recordables. lol.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By Alexstarfire on 1/24/2008 4:01:34 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree with Locutus465, though not his tactics. What "half of a game" are you talking about? Downloadable games are surely the way things will move EVENTUALLY, but not anytime soon. Downloadable content on the other hand, like extra levels, maps, guns, etc. are certainly viable downloads now though. They aren't widely implemented though.

BTW, nice straw man argument. Almost looks like you're arguing against what I posted, but you aren't.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 4:07:02 PM , Rating: 2
There are only two high capacity formats at the time, and they were not for the HD-DVD format, so what does that leave em with?

If you had a new idea that you'd like to show off, and have a platform to show it off from, would you turn around and say, "no, I'm not going to implement that"? The PS3 was designed to showcase high definition gaming, especially when the BD format was in its infancy. So here comes a place for Sony to go, "Hey, BDA! Look at this great I idea I just got. Would you back me up?"

If BD was such a bad idea, then why does it have so much support?


By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 5:10:17 PM , Rating: 2
The game itself is only supposed to be around under 9 gigs..

The 360 version will not be missing much at all - as in game content. PS3 will have a few extra cut scenes ( movies ) which take up extra space.

Capcom says BOTH CONSOLES will have downloadable content..


By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 5:20:39 PM , Rating: 2
Its already dead if in 3 yrs i can download movies to my hardrvive. I expect a new format or digital download to make disc media look outdated in thge near future

And DMC4 content will be downloadable to hardrives on both systems..


By Alexstarfire on 1/25/2008 12:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
The same reason Microsoft still has support these days, they basically force it down your throats. At the time the PS3 came out, and even now to be honest, HD was still in it's infancy. It doesn't sell millions of recorders a year to consumers. To think that the PS3 wasn't going to sell AT ALL would have just been a moronic statement. Sony fanboys were going to get the console for sure. Even if it only sold 2 million to date, which it's sold way more than that, that's still tons more Blu-Ray players than HD-DVD. Before the PS3 Blu-Ray had no chance of beating HD-DVD. Blu-Ray is more expensive to make, has more expensive players, and even had region coding that HD-DVD doesn't have. Blu-Ray may be slightly larger, but that alone isn't going to win th format war.


By Locutus465 on 1/25/2008 12:34:52 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, I suppose I did come off a bit strong there... I also read HDD where I hear bluray supporters go on about how the PS3 is gods gift to CE devices... Ignoring the fact that the 360 does everything a PS3 does. Get's old after a while.

Anyway, I'll reply here to a point brought up later in this thread by DJ, why MS didn't include "high def" media storage in the 360. The answer is two fold, first while MS realized the market would be willing to pay a premium for a cool new game console, they were at least grounded enough to realize $400 was the most you could reasonbly ask for. Hence no blue lazers in the 360, just regular plain jane red ones.

Secondly centers around the whole point of this article. Microsoft understood very well that being first to market (espeacially by a year) would give them a very big advantage, potentially the kind of advantage sony had with the PS2. They knew that having the absolute highest tech of absolutly everything come standard with their game console would mean squat if they couldn't beat Sony to market by a decent margin. How did they know this? They tried playing the cool high tech uber-fast HW angle with the original x-box against the PS2, we all know how that one ended.

So they compromise in an area where certainly at launch date, and even now it wasn't quite as big a deal. Give the 360 a regular DVD drive, that's plenty of storage for most games out there, and if you need to you can go multi-disc or offer downloadable content.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 4:33:09 PM , Rating: 2
The fact that a game that was supposed to be a PS3 exclusive is even showing its face on thge 360 is not good news for PS3.

Also the game trailer comparison at http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29151.html Appears the 360 version to look visually superior to PS3..

Do you have a link supporting what you are saying ?? Because extra content can easily be on additional disc and/or downloaded to 360 HD..


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 4:40:14 PM , Rating: 2
It was during ComicCon, and I lost all my links from before the first of the year. (GG MS, had to reformat...) I'm sure a google search will turn up something.

hard enough to multitask at work and posting here as well... lol


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 5:00:37 PM , Rating: 2
Everything Ive read about DMC4 says thgere will be extra content for PS3 but we're not talkingh half a game for 360's owenrs.. we're talking some content.

Capcoms official statement says 360's owenrs can play Dante and Nero.. but the demo version are supposed to only have Nero..

This thread which seems very current would also state both consoles will have downloadable content. see link: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23120...

Ive also read the PS3 version had previosly run so poorly from bluray ( reads were too slow ) that they devised a new idea in which they will load 5gigs ( 1/2 of the game ) to PS3 Hardrive while you play so it'll really be reading off te hardrive mainly.


By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 5:08:42 PM , Rating: 2
I hadn't seen this particular site, but good info. Looks like they figured out a way to please all crowds. When they initially announced it, it was more of a "PS3 was getting more and 360" sort of release. But now that they balance it, looks like this might actually come out pretty nice.

Lets hope it pans out. Would hate for this game to be a major disappointment, especially since I preordered it like a couple months ago... >.>


By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 8:14:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I can say that's it's typical for Sony to push it's own format instead of adopting some one else's format. I'm glad they see the need to be the most selfish company.


Bzzzzt. Look as recent as this last generation. DVD wasn't Sony's format and they adopted it for the PS2. They were working on something different but similar with Philips to succeed their CD-ROM format and ended up conceding with a small compromise. This generation, the only reason Sony and the rest of the BDA left the DVD forum was because the forum was obsessed with retrofitting old equipment and didn't even want blue lasers at first.

quote:
If MS intentionally pushed the 360 knowing that it had bad equipment and would lead to faulty consoles then they are just retarded in my book.


Think about how much money MS has in its treasure chest. Billions is chump change for them, if this had happened to Sony, their gaming division would be bankrupt. MS made a conscious decision to beat Sony to the market by a full year at whatever cost to gain marketshare and developers. All they had to do was lie to the consumer about known defects and pay billions of dollars in repairs later on. And look at what their userbase has been doing for them on forums everywhere as a result of that extra year: "PS3 has less games, PS3 is too expensive, PS3 is hard to develop for, blu-ray isn't good for games and HD-DVD is better..." all of those things are a result of the PS3 doing it right and coming to market A YEAR LATER with reliable hardware and a quiet next-gen drive. And THEY got bashed for it by the very people MS lied to.


By mmntech on 1/24/2008 2:45:09 PM , Rating: 3
I remember reading that multi-disc 360 games are on the way. Some RPG supposedly requires four DVDs. BD is a bit like when consoles first introduced CDs. The games themselves barely filled 1/10th the space but it opened the door to high res audio and FMV. It is rather puzzling that MS didn't include an HD-DVD drive with the Elite. When it came out, it was the same price as the PS3 is now but only added an HDMI port (which is now standard) and a 120gb drive. Digital downloading is not the future since most people don't have ultra-fast connections as someone else mentioned. They're also limited by download caps. Even a standard 60gb a month would get eaten up fast downloading DVD quality content, let alone HD video.

I'm not here to bash the 360 because it really does have some excellent games. Fanboys bash, gamers game. However, it does have some major design flaws. As was pointed out, if they had just spent the extra $2 for that bigger heatsink and perhaps a blower fan, they wouldn't have half the issues they're having. It's well known that the R500 and the PowerPC are very hot processors. You can't honestly expect a dinky heatsink and two 70mm fans to be adequate when your average desktop (which runs cooler) has more cooling power. Microsoft did jack customers around in the first couple of years the console was out. The three year warranty and die shrinks came a little too late for most 360 owners. It's bad business ethics, but then again, these are the same people who released Windows ME, the Zune, and Vista claiming they'd smash the competition in terms of quality.


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 3:04:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When MS lies and sells faulty hardware, its fans play it down, equate it to high prices, and rationalize it as a necessary evil to get more sales and steal away developers? I don't get it.


Ok then maybe you can get this.. we know console sales are driven by developers because good games sell consoles...

You say "STEAL away developers" ?? GET REAL. DEVELOPERS are in this for money.. they are just as evil as the evil you speak of - in your definition of it.

Case in point and fact. Nintendo was number 1 before Sony.. and before they were Sony's developers they were Nintendo's. Sony wanted to steal their thunder. They went to devs and said if you make games for us.. you can put them on CD.. the CD will cost you 63 cents.. and the other 49.00 will be profit to split - With Nintendo you have to pay 20.00 for the cartridge.. so now you have 19.00 profit to split with us... You decide who you want to develop for.. us or them.

So use the words STEALING DEVELOPERS .. because Devs do this for one reason.. to make money and grow. Sony took Devs away from Nintendo long before Nintendo took them back ( with the Wii ) and MS has with the Xbox 360..


By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 8:23:52 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
You say "STEAL away developers" ?? GET REAL. DEVELOPERS are in this for money.. they are just as evil as the evil you speak of - in your definition of it.


You've confused yourself. When did I blame the developers? Oh, that's right, I didn't. MS launches a year prematurely, conceals defects from consumers so that consumers buy it, and then wins a userbase advantage that attracts more developers. They've benefited on both fronts from an unethical decision and the PS3 loses sales and developers for doing it right. So if you don't blame MS this time around, guess what Sony does next time in order to compete? See how this is bad for the industry yet?


RE: It's a gamble to companies that size
By joemoedee on 1/24/2008 12:27:27 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Sony gambled by putting the BR player in the PS3


I'm unsure if it was an actual gamble on their part. One of the big reasons for early success with the PS2 was the fact that it could play DVDs right out of the box. It was only logical to take it a step forward with Blu-Ray.

Add to it, using BR for the game media was a great idea. Neither MS or Nintendo will be able to do during this current generation without their owners having to buy an additional attachment.


By darkblade33 on 1/24/2008 3:46:05 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
One of the big reasons for early success with the PS2 was the fact that it could play DVDs right out of the box. It was only logical to take it a step forward with Blu-Ray.


DISAGREE
A year before PS2 came out DVD was a universally agree'd upoun standard. When they came out with PS2 ( with DVD playback ) is was welcomed with wide open arms. Bluray is a Sony technology designed for one thing - world domination of high definition media = alot cash. Same as they tried before with Betamax Video. One was a standard, the other is trying to become the standard.

I fear buying either format as many because theres a ood chgance both will fail. Even with Blurays success over HD-DVD - both formats are selling horribly and the door is WIDE open for a better format to come out in the next few yrs.. including digital downloaded content which could become a real competitor to buying movies on Disc media..


By Polynikes on 1/24/2008 3:48:04 PM , Rating: 3
Moral of the story: Don't be a first adopter, let someone else do their bug testing.


By MeTaedet on 1/24/2008 8:04:00 PM , Rating: 2
That sounded suspiciously like a "B-b-b-but Clinton...!"


Criminal
By rupaniii on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: Criminal
By sweetsauce on 1/24/2008 10:24:15 AM , Rating: 1
Criminal would be if they didn't repair it for free. Microsoft knowingly releasing a flawed design is not a shock to anyone is it? Did you really think they didn't know beforehand? I've had my 360 from launch, with no problems yet "fingers crossed," but everytime i get any kind of hiccup in a game i fear its the end of my system. What really pisses me off about this is that you would think cooling would be a priority for a system generating that much heat. Hard to imagine no one there was smart enough to make a cooling system to sufficiently keep the system from melting inside.


RE: Criminal
By retrospooty on 1/24/2008 11:19:55 AM , Rating: 4
Yup. There is a difference between the two.

I am sure MS didnt know that many units would fail. It has cost them a huge amount of money to repair. If they knew that many units would have failed they would have fixed it. Business 101.


RE: Criminal
By BansheeX on 1/25/2008 3:33:38 AM , Rating: 3
It may have cost them billions, but that is chump change to Microsoft, and look at what it got them: it allowed them to secure a massive userbase before Sony even came to market, which in turn gained them a lot of developer support. Think they're losing any sleep over this? Don't underestimate what a company this size will do to snuff out the competition.


RE: Criminal
By masher2 (blog) on 1/24/2008 10:25:32 AM , Rating: 3
Penalties? A free three-year warranty on every box is a lot more than you'd get from a government investigation or a class-action lawsuit.


RE: Criminal
By jtesoro on 1/24/2008 11:17:03 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah, but the lawyers are missing out.


RE: Criminal
By rcc on 1/24/2008 12:34:50 PM , Rating: 2
It's too big for lawyers anyway. Chasing ambulances is less risk. : )

Seriously tho, as I recall the lawsuits in process sort of died a quiet death after MS started announcing the new policies.


RE: Criminal
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 11:22:08 AM , Rating: 2
Do you know how many companies release products with No-to -little testing ? Often the testing is real work working conditions by consumers..

Furthermore ..FEW.. companies have testing standards that aren't flawed and biased in their favor.


RE: Criminal
By omnicronx on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
Wake up everyone!
By robinthakur on 1/24/2008 11:54:29 AM , Rating: 4
What I find truly shocking about this piece and the comments I've read is that most of you seem to be responsding with your business strategy mind-sets of "It makes good business sense for Microsoft and they've gained in the long term" (minus the small matter of the $1bn financial bollaxing they endured for this)

This is a bit of a dumb attitude to have for consumers, if you'll forgive me for saying because actually you shouldn't care how well the Xbox 360 does relative to the PS3 because you don't stand to profit from it one iota. On the other hand if your highly expensive console hardware fails, you've been shafted, period. To me it simply doesn't matter that its now covered by MS for three years; they've done this knowing full well that to not do it would be viewed as unacceptable by 99% of the public, its not like its because they believe in the build quality of their product so much. They expect it to fail within that three years. Outside that 3 year period, you'll need to buy a new Xbox I guess?

Now it has come to light in the public domain that this flaw was known about and the virtually non-existant and systemically flawed 'testing' went on according to the source, yet Microsoft egregiously and arrogantly decided to market a broken product to the public, this is more than enough grounds for a product recall for all 360 owners of earlier revisions to get their units swapped over to a unit which works and is guaranteed (more or less) a certain rasonable longevity of say I dunno, the life of the 360 format? Sounds Nuts I know...

Yes the games on it are goodd, but I don't want to worry everytime I boot up the console whether it will die on me. Mine fails to boot 1 in 4/5 times with 3 RROD, but MS refuse to swap it over until it completely fails! Its 8 months old. The experience I've had dealing with MS over this has ensured that I sure as hell won't buy into their next public testing release aka the next Xbox and makes me think that they should make the early adopters pay less based on the situation with this generation's fiasco. You don't see this happening to Nintendo.




RE: Wake up everyone!
By BansheeX on 1/24/2008 12:37:44 PM , Rating: 3
I totally agree and have posted my opinions about this above. People who bought a 360 need to ask themselves if they would have bought a 360 if MS had not concealed this information before launch. And most of the people who are using the "end justifies the means" argument are people who bought and own the system. Of course they will turn a blind eye to this. This is the craziest new business tactic in the history of gaming. Release a system a year earlier, conceal defects, gain a userbase and loyal following inherently opposed to the competition and who convinces friends to buy one too in order to play online with them, and then pay out billions in warranties and admit what you did... to no effect. If consumers accept this, then it will effectively change the way consoles are made and sold. Everything will now be rushed no matter what in order to secure the userbase first, knowing that people will accept mass hardware problems and loud drives out of blind loyalty to what they have already purchased.


RE: Wake up everyone!
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 12:46:05 PM , Rating: 2
Hopefully no one will try and justify the business tactic, to be sure this is a horrible business tactic that should never be condoned and I'm very glad that in the end, in terms of dollars it didn't pay off (though it has in terms of market share). As for whether I would have bought a x-box 360 when I did, well I would have actually. I didn't buy until the price drop, which conisided with the release of the HDMI premium console which is a lot better off (though yeah, still bad apparently).

At the very least, no one (unless they made very bad choices) has lost any money with this, just play time that's it (and no, play time does not equal money!). Microsoft did at least do the right thing in the end and back their customers as well as anyone could hope for.

In the end I'm guessing that we'll see major changes with the development of the "X-Box 720", ending up with a much more reliable console.


RE: Wake up everyone!
By robinthakur on 1/25/2008 8:42:00 AM , Rating: 3
People (read 'consumers' who paid and are still paying Microsoft money for the privilege of using the 360) have already defended Microsoft's actions on this issue (see above)

One could also argue that actually this DID work out in MS's favour from a dollar perspective. The exposure and boost in the market's confidence when a brand's market-share increases is hard to put a value on. They have revenue streams from Live and market place through the additional sales and they have avoided an even more costly and damaging product recall. When consumers lose confidence in a product the market share falls. Just look at HDDVD.

Had I known the articles' information that my console (note not the average failure rate, but MY console which I paid MY MONEY for) would fail within 3 years and be horribly unreliable up until then I would have not purchased it until the reliability improved. Playing the console is no pleasure because the noise coming from it is so high pitched and so variable it sounds like its on its last legs, and that's when it starts properly.

People who were refused warranty cover before the extension and decided to purchase a new console instead of taking MS to task did lose out money-wise. Categorically. Nobody held a gun to their head but they might have believed what's been written periodically online that later models did not suffer from the same defects. This came from MS's mouth so I wouldn't blame them except for being blindly brand-loyal.

Microsoft did what they had to do to ensure that their product and their name did not receive such a blackened, radioactive reputation that they would be unable to sell consoles in this generation or the next. Let's not confuse this with wanting to "do the right thing" however late this sentiment showed up. You aim for the low failure rate at the initial design and planning phase, not 2 years plus down the line...It damages the image of the whole console industry.


Pic
By Sunbird on 1/24/2008 10:13:43 AM , Rating: 6
"One does not simply walk into Microsoft."




RE: Pic
By nvalhalla on 1/24/2008 11:08:47 AM , Rating: 2
HA!

I always love the pics. Hell, sometimes I click on the article just to see what picture they attached to it. This one was very good. Made me laugh!


RE: Pic
By cochy on 1/24/2008 1:46:19 PM , Rating: 2
nice one =)


Same with Hardware as with Software
By ezacharyk on 1/24/2008 1:36:22 PM , Rating: 2
So Microsoft develops hardware the same way they develop software. "Release it early and let the consumer do the bug testing." That is the Microsoft way.

It is upsetting that very few 360 owners are outraged by this. I have a hard time believing that so many people would look the other way on this.




RE: Same with Hardware as with Software
By hr824 on 1/24/2008 11:36:11 PM , Rating: 3
Well I am one of the outraged.

They knew 6 months into the release they had a problem and denied it, and keep on denying it until they just couldn't deny it any longer. Then and only then did there attitude change too , gee were so very sorry here's a nice warranty see how nice we are.

It's appalling that people defend MS on this matter. It worked out nice for MS though, I bought one before the news hit and I'm heavily invested in that vacuum cleaner system that scratched 2 of my games to death, died to the RROD only to have the power supply die 1 week after the repaired system arrived.

Of corse it's a short tearm gane for them as far as I'm conserened because there will be no xbox 720 or what ever they call in in my house EVER.


RE: Same with Hardware as with Software
By Belard on 1/25/2008 3:59:36 AM , Rating: 2
Naa.... no Xbox = no HALO for them ;)

M$ marketing (not much different from anyone else) is doing what MS has always done... "We give our customer a choice with our HD-DVD drive" - er, if they were giving them a CHOICE- they'd have both BR & HD? DUH!!!

Other silly marketing: HALO 3's new revolutionary Transport pads that can send players across the map!! OH WOW!! I wet my panties!! Oh wait! We call them JUMP PADS from the days of UT99 and Quake3 from about 8 bloody years ago! But the folks of bungie/MS act like they invented it!


By NullSubroutine on 1/27/2008 3:28:43 AM , Rating: 2
You wear panties? And you 'wet' them? I sure hope you are female otherwise the image in my mind has just scarred me.


Big Shock
By kelmon on 1/24/2008 11:04:59 AM , Rating: 2
I think it would take a complete idiot, or perhaps an ostrich, to not have known this. It was perfectly clear that Microsoft's primary aim with the 360 was to get something to market that could compete with the specifications of the PS3 before the PS3 arrived. With that known quality was always going to take a back seat role to the main goal.

I've said it once (OK, more than once) and I'll say it again - this is the #1 reason why I won't touch a 360, ever.




RE: Big Shock
By grampaw on 1/24/2008 2:13:34 PM , Rating: 2
I thought Microsoft was a software company. Hardware isn't like software - you can't just throw some shoddy hardware out there and then issue "updates/patches/etc." to correct your initial hardware mistakes. Microsoft has been getting away with this approach for years with their software. However, software is a horse of a different color. You'd think they'd be bright enough to know...

Won't catch me buying any Microsoft hardware.


RE: Big Shock
By kelmon on 1/25/2008 3:43:34 AM , Rating: 2
Mostly, yes, but I still have fond memories of various Microsoft Mice and Natural Keyboard. The keyboard and last mouse did break eventually but I thought they were good pieces of hardware and they lasted many years. Due to this I wasn't adverse to buying a 360 until all the reports of reliability issues came out since I'd had good experiences of Microsoft's hardware in the past. Certainly I considered them a better manufacturer of hardware than software.


What a lame article to post.
By Snuffalufagus on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
By James Holden on 1/24/2008 11:49:14 AM , Rating: 4
This guy was right about the Bungie thing a week in advance. He's obviously talking to the same guy, or risking his reputation to make it up.

Given that he's provided very specific examples of what went wrong, I'm more inclined to trust this source than most other "insiders" (aka, some "expert" we got a 1-line quote from to spin this article into a particular angle) you see at Wired or something.


RE: What a lame article to post.
By chick0n on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: What a lame article to post.
By chick0n on 1/24/2008 11:55:35 AM , Rating: 2
Just wait and see who gets fired in these upcoming weeks.

Xbox360's RRoD is a very *well known* problem. Dont tell me thats not a defect. and there is NO WAY that MS did not know about the problem prior launch.


RE: What a lame article to post.
By robinthakur on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
Looking at the HSF designs...
By Fenixgoon on 1/24/2008 12:42:03 PM , Rating: 2
why don't they include some cooling fans on top of the heatsink blocks? I see intake/exhaust fans attached directly to the case, but nothing on top of the heatsinks themselves.

Having a large, low RPM fan keeps things quiet and moves a decent amount of air, and would probably help reduce failures even further.

I understand the need for silence, but my computer is pretty darn quiet with 2 large, low rpm fans (Zalman Cu on the GPU, TT Blue Orb II on the CPU)




By otispunkmeyer on 1/24/2008 7:14:00 PM , Rating: 2
ive cracked my 360 open and i dont see how they can just slap a fan on really

the CPU hSF is pretty meaty, but coz of the GPU's position its HS is a very low profile slab of aluminium with some fins (that have a large pitch between them as well) so that it can fit under the DVD drive.
theres a shroud over the two heatsinks and two fans to draw air over them and thats about it.

i had an old GF3 Ti200 that had a similar low profile fanless heatsink on it, and honestly that was barely enough to keep that thing cool.

really that thing needs some heat pipes. that way the gpu can stay under the DVD drive and the heat can be channeled out to a seperate set of fins where there is more space


reliable source?
By omnicronx on 1/24/2008 2:02:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
“There just weren't enough people to do the job that needed to be done."


Who is this 1 person claiming the proper tests were not done? The janitor? There is no doubt in my mind Microsoft screwed up someone on quality testing. But i do not find this to be a reliable source at all. With all the people working at Microsoft you would think someone else would have anonymously stepped forward by now confirming the same thing, especially since it has been 2 years since release.

I don't mean to attack the article, but you really mentioned nothing we do not already know, other than the hearsay of one person, whom did not even mention the scope of the position he was in.




RE: reliable source?
By JackBeQuick on 1/24/2008 3:27:09 PM , Rating: 2
It was mentioned in both articles that it was the same source that leaked the Bungie split. Maybe this guys is throwing away his reputation to confirm a fact that *everyone* already knew.

But it's probably more likely that not everyone just publishes BS to grab pagehits.

I don't totally trust everything I read, but once you stop reading the Inquirer its amazing how much good information is out there.

Places like DT are staking their reputation on the same source. They obviously have enough information here to go on something to do a post on, or they're throwing the last 2 years out of the window to grab maybe 100,000 page views?

If the source is inaccurate, someone will nail DT for it. Just like DT zings the Inq for making stuff up. (Which is why nobody reads Inq anymore)


Naughy, naughty
By munim on 1/24/2008 11:54:55 AM , Rating: 3
Microsoft..releasing half baked products! Unlikely!




By Jack Ripoff on 1/24/2008 3:45:50 PM , Rating: 3
This is Microsoft's standard modus operandi since its conception: hurrying to launch half-baked products into the market just to get market-share. It doesn't care about the customer's needs or product quality at all.

And guess what? The best part is: it succeeds and gets away with all that crap! Microsoft has achieved its objectives and has surpassed Sony's market-share.

People like to think that the consumer always "votes with his wallet" and that products succeed because of their quality, but this clearly doesn't hold true in the actual market. Microsoft is proof of this.

The consumer's standards actually keep getting lower and lower each time this happens. And this is good for Microsoft, because when it goes from 30% failure rates down to 10%, people tend to end up thinking Microsoft is spending lots of effort on making reliable stuff and really cares about the consumer.




How sorry you gamers are...
By ChipDude on 1/27/2008 6:45:02 PM , Rating: 3
If any consumer item had the reliability record of the orignal xbox360 it would have suffered a fate similar to yugo or the audi5000 of late. The brand would have been tarred and feathered.

The fact that gamers continue to suck up and buy xboxs and the games is simlar to drug adicts who buy crack... They just can't stay away nor keep a hold of their money, they are too addicted to a mindless entertainment and are willing to throw their hard earn money away to crap manafuctures who are all to happy to take it.

suckers you all are




Why not replace the "Xenon's"?
By ultimatebob on 1/24/2008 10:14:26 AM , Rating: 2
You would think that it would eventually be cheaper just to replace an older "Xenon" console with a new XBox 360 console rather than have to repair them 2 or 3 times over it's lifetime.




One word....accountability
By masa77 on 1/24/2008 11:14:57 AM , Rating: 2
One word....accountability. With the three year warranty in place it's quite obvious Microsoft is attempting to bandaid the problem, which is far better than doing nothing, as some companies do. However, having been through three 360s myself I don't think that's enough. If these units are 'expected' to fail with a number of months or years then there has to be accountability for shipping 'defective' product to consumers. I don't think it's fair to the consumer to to purchase a new unit three or four years down the road after the warranty expires. Looking at the horrid reliability up until now, I would bet many will end up in that position.

My confidence in Microsoft was lost long ago and if this source is valid, I can't that say I'm that shocked. Microsoft is not an ethical company and they've certainly proven that in the past. If I had a choice I would not purchase their often sub-par products, but unfortunately in some cases we have very little choice.




no surprise
By Screwballl on 1/24/2008 1:50:25 PM , Rating: 2
This IS Microsoft we are talking about. The same creators of WinME that was a complete failure.. the same creators of Win2000 that had nothing but problems until SP3. Creators of XP which was decent but still problematic until SP2... and now they have this crap called Vista which forced them to further their sales line and support timeframe for XP because of the number of problems... and I don't want to hear this "well I never had a problem" crap because you would be in the minority.

At least MA is willing to do something about it rather than just take the money and run OR force you to pay for the security and upgrades (are you listening Steve Jobs?).
(now I expect to be voted down by the fanboys that hate people that speak bad about their precious MS or the people who have one Vista installation that never had a problem)




Par for the course...
By cubdukat on 1/24/2008 2:25:28 PM , Rating: 2
It figures. They're batting three for three now--Zune, Vista and first-gen Xbox 360's.

Quite frankly, I'm beginning to wonder whether I shouldn't just buy a Wii instead.

Just joking. Nintendo lost me after the N64. I was planning on getting either a PS3 60GB (if I can find one without turning to eBay) or 360, but now I think I'll wait. I don't really even have a TV or monitor that could do it justice yet.

Whodathunk getting away from Vista as a gaming platform would be so hard?




Hmmm..
By Bigjee on 1/24/2008 6:09:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Microsoft had to take an over $1 billion USD charge to cover the Red Ring of Death defect warranty, which last year cost the company’s Entertainment and Devices Division a $1.89 billion USD loss. Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer termed the warranty coverage charge as “painful” to announce.


Looks like Sony's not the only one taking a loss on every console they've sold.




not suprised....
By otispunkmeyer on 1/24/2008 7:03:54 PM , Rating: 2
in the least

honestly

the 90 day warranty period for (what was at the time) a £300 + plus piece of next gen gaming equipment says to me MS didnt have the slightest confidence in their product.

a warranty period that small says to me.... yeah its likely to fail but hopefully it should last 3 months before it does so we dont have to cover it.

Kia's and hyundais come with mega 5 - 7 year warranties....why? is it to tempt customers over from more mainstream brands? i dont think so, its because their engineering (mechanically speaking) is pretty sound. they have confidence because they know they did it all right.




Did they rush it?
By homeroids on 1/24/2008 7:38:04 PM , Rating: 2
This is my first post so please don't flame me down. I do not wish to come across as a fanboy of any persuasion. Sorry ,being the Noob I am, I originally posted as a reply so it's lost in the thread :). Repost.

There does seem to be more evidence of MS launching the 360 before it was ready; the fact that there was a major supply issue after Xmas 2005. Ok, some might say that's normal with a new console. Nintendo are still trying to keep up with supply and indeed after their release and even the PS3's release there were supply constraints. Fair enough. But, 3 months of it? And, after selling only 900k all up? That's exactly what happened with the 360. Having 900k for launch and then a desert on supply for at least 3 months doesn't sound right to me. That means a few possibilities:

1. MS knew they only had about a million to go. They chose a Japan and US launch. But why would you launch with such a small number knowing that the next batch would not be coming until March?
2. MS had more than 1 million but many did not pass QA testing.

Either way, a 3 month constraint on supply after launch and with limited launch numbers, speaks issues to me.

Ok, one comparison - Sony launched with only 400k sales in the US due to supply constraint. Yeah, but Sony didn't take 3 months to get the supply chain in order again.




BOOOO! sux
By Moogoo112 on 1/24/2008 9:14:33 PM , Rating: 2
Right after i read this, my 2 year old premium Red lights on me, gonna take 3-4 weeks to get a refurb one back. yay i jus joined the 33% club. these machines suck as it froze alot too, good games though




By kilkennycat on 1/25/2008 12:51:06 AM , Rating: 2
At the time that Anand posted his first views of the Xbox360 opened up, I immediately responded in the discussion thread with serious concern on the thermal design -- along the following lines:-

1. Internal high-density CPU and GPU heat-sinks fan-ventilated with no filters and inaccessible by users for cleaning ( M$$ paranoia about 3rd-party hacks ) - special tools required and the warranty seal broken when opening the box. The triple-core CPU is a very hot part when all cores are working flat-out needing a very high-desity heat-sink with high fin-count, which is an ideal lint/animal-dander trap. A typical PC in a home environment needs a filter-clean every 6 months or so, plus there is a lot less heat per unit air-volume. No doubt Microsoft could have built-in an effective thermal warning system for clogged internal heatsinks, but with no user-access to those internal heat-sinks they would need to be factory-serviced -Microsoft took the chance by warranty-sealing the box, let their 3rd-party mod paranoia win out over easy user-access for cleaning, and bingo - Catch 22.

2. The CPU and GPU heat-sinks in the Xbox360 are jammed up against the DVD-drive -- so as they fill with lint, the DVD drive also overheats, and DVD-drives ( like hard-disks ) are thermally-sensitive components.

The Xbox360 designers probably could not have chosen a worse design layout from the point-of-view of thermal reliability. A design by the wrong bunch of people obviously with no experience of high-reliability design and no thermal-reliability design folk to back them up. The design should have been given to a group long-experienced in designing high-reliability. high-density commercial and consumer gear. Microsoft should have contracted out the design to Sony engineers --- oops, sorry, I meant Panasonic engineers.

The M$$ problem with the Xbox360 was not a matter of time-to-market. If the design specification had been given the proper reliabilty emphasis, all the problems could have been solved in exactly the same time. Remember that the Xbox360 thermal problems fundamentally stem from a thermally-improper circuit-layout and a mechanical package that compounded the thermal problems. Might have cost a bit more for seasoned electronic and electronic-package designers and full-fledged reliability testing but, in retrospect, that front-end cost seems miniscule compared with the $1billion write-off.




By teckytech9 on 1/25/2008 1:22:00 AM , Rating: 2
Made in China, at an facility that is not fully ISO compliant (9001/9002/14001).

- No safeguards in BIOS, to shutdown the system when catastrophic overheating occurs, thus causing the red rings.
- Inadequate heatsinks on GPU components, design flaw which lacks heat dissipation.
- Rush to market.

Where is it o.k. to let a manufacturers knowingly sell faulty products and get away with it? A three year warranty probably means the end of the life cycle support for the current version of the Xbox. WHQL is missing.




By bfellow on 1/25/2008 9:13:56 AM , Rating: 2
The fact that several things were messed up (User Account Control) in the original release of Windows Vista from what was promised is indication that this news is no joke and just pretty common. Now we're waiting for XP Service Pack 3 and Vista Service Pack 1 official release.




Memory refresh
By crystal clear on 1/25/2008 9:30:32 AM , Rating: 2
If this microsoft insider is to be believed then one can link what he says to-Microsoft Corporate VP of Interactive Entertainment Peter Moore resignation.

Xbox Ringleader Peter Moore Bolts From Microsoft, Lands at EA Sports

http://www.dailytech.com/Xbox+Ringleader+Peter+Moo...

Then we should expect to hear from the insiders on this-

Xbox Exec Stock Selloff Raises Eyebrows, Microsoft Shrugs

reports of Robbie Bach, president Microsoft’s entertainment and devices unit, having sold $6.2 million in stock up to six weeks prior to the announcement of the company’s more than $1 billion provision for defective Xbox 360 consoles raises more than just a few eyebrows.


http://www.dailytech.com/Xbox+Exec+Stock+Selloff+R...




By crystal clear on 1/25/2008 9:46:24 AM , Rating: 2
Read this-Interview with Robbie Bach

There are three ways to make money on an Xbox. Generally its not on the hardware itself; well probably be gross margin neutral on that over the life cycle of the product and try to break even on that.

The second thing you try to do is you make money on the games themselves, and there are two models there. One is first-party games that Microsoft produces. The other is games that Electronic Arts or an Activision produces, and we get paid a royalty on those games.

The third place you make money is on Live, and where we actually have a very nice service thats scaling very well, and that is a business model thats subscription, ad-based, and download-based. It kind of has the full gamut of business models associated with it, and I think youre going to continue to see that grow.

And then the final place you make money is on peripherals, so game controllers, cameras, steering wheels, a whole other set of things.

Right now were doing a pretty good job. Were humming pretty well in the business. Our costs are a little higher than wed like, [but] were pushing those down; there are good initiatives underway to drive that. Game attach rate [is at the] highest level in history for a game console at this stage in the life cycle. The same with our peripheral attach rate. Xbox Live has over 6 million members.

The pieces are in place to drive the proverbial billion dollars. Specific date—oh, thats going to depend on what happens in pricing, which partly we control, partly we dont. You know what happens in component costs—mostly we have pretty good influence over that, but there are places where we dont. Pricing on memory goes up and down seemingly like a yo-yo, so [we have to manage] through that.

So, its a business that will be profitable next year—well make money next year and that will be the first time, which is pretty exciting. And then the next two or three years are the place where you need to make tracks, and the next two or three years are where you have to make money.



http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Microsoft-Poised-...




By TheJian on 1/25/2008 1:43:23 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=31...

Anandtech says all chips have shrunk. Who's right here? Seems to me the GPU has to be on some smaller process or it couldn't possibly be 85% of the old one. 80nm is still better than 90nm if that's what they did. But it seems you need to correct your article.




By joemoedee on 1/25/2008 4:31:14 PM , Rating: 1
Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.

Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.

Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?

Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?

Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.

Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?

Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

Ted Nelson, Customer: [pause] Okay, I'll buy from you.




Microsoft is a bad company
By Serafina on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
Marcus Yam continues his MS hate
By billybob24 on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
Where are the Xbox fanboys/girls ?
By chick0n on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
By Squilliam on 1/24/2008 11:59:06 AM , Rating: 1
I think being able to interupt the folding with gaming every once in a while to be a good thing. IMHO

So you basically "Blah blah im a fanboy blah blah" Called the Xbox 360 fanboys "Fanboys" Forgot to call it an Xbot I think! That would have made your post complete.

I have A highend PC, A PS3 (Folds 24/7 cos of no interesting games at the moment) Xbox 360 and used to have a wii before I kicked it.

Back on topic, the xbox failures were also compounded by poor soldering. The solder I think IIRC can often be cracked. So any additional heat can compound this failure.


haha!
By inperfectdarkness on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: haha!
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 11:29:48 AM , Rating: 1
Yes MS, thank you for fixing my 2 year old Xbox 360 for FREE, and including a months free subscription to Live along with it... even if it was flawed - you admitted it publicly and said sorry and backed it up with millions of dollars more spent then you made to fix it.

Other companies like Sony simply would've said - We dont have enough cash to fix all these and then told us - Hey bud - Its two yrs old which "WAyyyyy Out of Warranty" - Tough Sh@t !!


RE: haha!
By chick0n on 1/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: haha!
By masher2 (blog) on 1/24/2008 11:52:36 AM , Rating: 4
You're seriously comparing serious injury stemming from brake failure to a few days without Halo?


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/24/2008 12:05:36 PM , Rating: 3
While his comparison is flawed, his basic premise is not. They're band-aiding a known defective product instead of recalling it like they ought to. This issue needs even more mainstream publicity to ensure that Microsoft will do something slightly more honest and transparent than seeming to offer a free extended 3 year warranty. An expected 3 Years of use out of a major console from day 1 of launch is not acceptable on any level. All consoles I've ever owned from Gameboy, SNES and PS1 through to PS3 and Wii are still going strong, why is the second newest one the least reliable?!?


RE: haha!
By joemoedee on 1/24/2008 12:32:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
hey're band-aiding a known defective product instead of recalling it like they ought to.


I think some of it stems from what MS is. They're a software company.

Release a version of Windows... it has problems... Get a Windows Update out there once the problem is discovered.

Many software companies have consistently released software that they KNOW has problems. Thus we have so many patches, updates, service packs, etc.

The problem is, you can't do that with hardware.


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/25/2008 9:12:47 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure how the law works in America but at least in the UK a product has to be free of workmanship defects for up to 6 years. If you return them to the shops instead of dealing more directly with Microsoft, and INSIST that it is the shop's responsibility to fix/refund or replace because your contract of sale is with them by law, the retail industry will start to put pressure on MS to fix it.

If you deal with MS only, it tends to hide the scale of the problem and future buyers will also be inconvenienced whereas if you go into EB (or wherever) and scream at them until both you and the staff are crying and then you're in a good position to bargain...Do not tolerate the intolerable and you can expect future products to hit the retail channel free of defects.


RE: haha!
By FITCamaro on 1/24/2008 12:27:10 PM , Rating: 2
My nearly one year old Elite has endured many 10+ hour gaming sessions without fail.

And you're right, I can't run Folding@Home on my 360 with out it turning off. Because the client isn't available. Would I run it if it was? No. Because its a games console. I didn't buy it to fold proteins. Nor would I leave on such an expensive piece of equipment 24/7 just so I can brag about it.

Idiots like you make the world an annoying place to live. And learn how to speak.


RE: haha!
By chick0n on 1/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: haha!
By Shlong on 1/24/2008 11:56:17 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah well I like how Microsoft is extending the warranty but not all is good. I got Halo3 the first day it came out and to my luck, I get the RROD the same day. The process of calling customer support, receiving the prepaid box, putting my xbox in there minus hard drive, shipping it back to them, and then receiving another xbox took close to 2 weeks. So while I wanted to play Halo3, I couldn't for 2 weeks... let's just say at the time I was pretty peeved about the whole situation.


RE: haha!
By beyazkeyat on 1/24/2008 12:01:39 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, it would be nice if they had some sort of cross shipping option, maybe with a credit card hold or something. But at least it's free to get the RRoD fixed. I've had my system since March of 2006 and it's still going strong. *knock on wood*


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/24/2008 12:09:28 PM , Rating: 3
When I had an issue with my 4 year old PS1 in the UK, Sony sent out another new model unit (prob. refurbished) which arrived THE NEXT DAY and took the defective one away.

I'm not a fan of the PS3 in particular, but at least their customer service shows what should be happening with the 360. I think because in the UK, you can reasonably expect an expensive electronic product to last 6 years under law.


RE: haha!
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 2:11:55 PM , Rating: 2
They did ?

My 1st PS2 died 3 months out of warranty. Sony wouldnt help. My 2nd PS2 quit recognizing disc after about 2yrs old.. there was no defect.. but I bought another..

Any company that can at least fix your console - whether to not they knew of a problem - is taking responsibility.
I dont care about Sorry's.. I care that they fixed my unit and extended my warranty. In effect MS has spent more money fixing 360's then they have made selling them. Thats standing behind a product and a mistake.


RE: haha!
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 2:35:51 PM , Rating: 2
When my PS2 contracted the dreaded DRE, I took it to the Sony Service Center in San Diego (roughly 1 hour from me). As soon as I told them I had the DRE, they took it no questions asked (except where to send it back to), and said it would take a couple of weeks. I was sad, but I wanted it fixed.

Can you believe I got it 3 days later with a note that said "we fixed it and extended your warranty"? Thats Customer Service.


RE: haha!
By Locutus465 on 1/24/2008 3:56:45 PM , Rating: 2
Must be nice living that close to the service center, those of use not an hour away from the MS service center in TX have to wait longer. But the process to get your x-box fixed is not any more painful... In fact when my 360 went, not only did I get the 1 month of free service, but I also got PGR. An older game, but fun non-the-less and no cost to me :)


RE: haha!
By Bigjee on 1/24/2008 6:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
Eh...WRONG!

That's called selling mistake and having to pay for it.


RE: haha!
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 6:57:16 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, but they are paying.. with cash

Im not paying, they are.. ( key words )
So everyone else is just pissed because they cant get laid


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/25/2008 11:26:54 AM , Rating: 2
When I called Sony didn't even ask when it was purchased, they just took the serial number and model number and swapped it next day.

Whilst you might have had a different experience in the US, which is regrettable, MS in the UK are refusing to even fix my console, 8 months old which crashes on boot 1/5 times with RROD. They've said variably that..."its the discs which are scratched.", "The power supply you are feeding the Xbox 360 is not up to the standard required", "the power supply is overheating", "You need to add a surge adaptor", "You have it on its side, try standing it up." Whatever. You get the idea, excuse after excuse.

Whilst the early PS2's are anecdotally believed to have a high failure rate, I've never seen figures for this and my one has always been reliable, so I reckon its mainly people using copied discs who had problems and wore the laser out.

Oh they extended your warranty on a £300 device up from a paltry 90 days? Wow, you must feel so grateful...God bless Microsoft. They are now taking responsibility because they HAVE TO since they've publicly admitted there is a hardware problem with it due to their design. I also don't care about Sorrys, I'd prefer that they never have to say sorry in the first place. Besides, its easy to take responsibility once they've already got your money. They probably used it to fund the newer revisions of the 360 which don't melt.


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/25/2008 11:27:01 AM , Rating: 2
When I called Sony didn't even ask when it was purchased, they just took the serial number and model number and swapped it next day.

Whilst you might have had a different experience in the US, which is regrettable, MS in the UK are refusing to even fix my console, 8 months old which crashes on boot 1/5 times with RROD. They've said variably that..."its the discs which are scratched.", "The power supply you are feeding the Xbox 360 is not up to the standard required", "the power supply is overheating", "You need to add a surge adaptor", "You have it on its side, try standing it up." Whatever. You get the idea, excuse after excuse.

Whilst the early PS2's are anecdotally believed to have a high failure rate, I've never seen figures for this and my one has always been reliable, so I reckon its mainly people using copied discs who had problems and wore the laser out.

Oh they extended your warranty on a £300 device up from a paltry 90 days? Wow, you must feel so grateful...God bless Microsoft. They are now taking responsibility because they HAVE TO since they've publicly admitted there is a hardware problem with it due to their design. I also don't care about Sorrys, I'd prefer that they never have to say sorry in the first place. Besides, its easy to take responsibility once they've already got your money. They probably used it to fund the newer revisions of the 360 which don't melt.


RE: haha!
By enlil242 on 1/24/2008 2:25:16 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
instead, we have the 800lbs gorilla still trying to muscle everyone out of his way--any way possible. microsoft went into the console market with one idea in mind: throw money at the project until it has no choice but to be a success.

well-done microsoft. well-done indeed. it's truly a shame no-one else sees the monster for what it truly is:

a win at all costs, cut corners everywhere, spend more $$$ marketing than the entire republican party combined, and buy out those who can do your dirty work--blackmail/list those who won't.


WOW! ... Look, I own both a 360 and PS3, but the same exact thing you said there can be said about Sony w/ BluRay.

There are no angels in this. Both were looking for market share and both got it with respect to their goals. And the consumer has to deal with the consequneces. Xbox: quality issues - PS3: lack of games and high cost.

Looks like both are fixing their shortcomings.


RE: haha!
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 2:47:18 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with you for the most part.
I can at least say MS has spent more money fixing 360's thgen it's made on 360's. But being they have the highhest attachment rate in games - Whether MS haters or Sony fans boys like it - the high attachment rate ( seven per console out there ) says something you can't make up - its a great gaming machine. The fact they ARE fixing units up to three yrs after purchase says they are putting their money where their mouth is when they say sorry. I can deal with inconviences of not havinhg my console a whole 2 or 3 weeks.. Im not going to boo hoo like all the little babies here not being able to play a game for a few weeks. Thge fact is I didnt have to buy another 390 console.. I got a better one back for free.


RE: haha!
By Moogoo112 on 1/24/2008 9:16:08 PM , Rating: 2
hey did you get one with the new hdmi? mine jus broke today and it was a launch one


RE: haha!
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 2:48:41 PM , Rating: 1
2 different things here.

MS, Sony, and Nintendo are trying to be kings of their markets. MS is the only one with the desire to dominate completely, and people are too sheep-like to see it. We are infused with MS everywhere and we buy into the hype too readily.

Sony's part in BD is just that, a part. BDA as a whole was against HD-DVD as a whole. No single company is involved one-on-one. Its a game of tug of war that BDA has won. Sony was right for once. GG. BDA is not Sony, but Sony is in the BDA.


RE: haha!
By darkblade33 on 1/24/2008 3:36:05 PM , Rating: 1
Sony wants to be MS and you dont see it.
If bluuray suceeds they will be close. The difference is I live in the USA and Im proud to see one of the few American companies succeed. You on the other hand would be proud to see another American company go up in smoke, like General Electric who quit making Tv's in thge late 70's early 80's where Sony and all those yellow demons took over.

One reason why America had to ghet out of electronics was people like you who bought foreign goods and sent money elsewhere


RE: haha!
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 3:55:09 PM , Rating: 2
Its nice that you are so patriotic about wanting to buy American, but before you quote companies like those, look where their manufacturing is. Sorry, but you lose.

We Americans can have good ideas, hell I've seen some great ones. but it comes down to cost, and the reason those "yellow demons" took over is that we could not keep costs down locally because we are a "rich nation" and expect to be paid high wages. So companies look to spend the least and get the most. Oh look! A chinese factory builds the same thing I make for 5% of what I'm paying for here... Hmm... should I go there and make a higher profit or stay here and die because I can't make a decent profit? Hmm...

The only reason MS is so successful in the software market is that they cater the the "dumb idoits" of the world. The Asians are far too complex to make anything simple. We can make things simple without it being to complex. You can have one or the other, not both.

And to fix your statement, everyone wants to be MS: the largest, most profitable, most powerful company in the world, with a powerful grasp of every world government and economy.


RE: haha!
By darkblade33 on 1/24/2008 4:01:07 PM , Rating: 2
I dont lose scumbag.

My aunt is MS rep. Most of the money is in fact in the USA, in American funds and banks, and most of their offices are in the continental US payingh American employees.

So no I dont lose just because 360's aren't built here. The 360's is the only division losing money to a company whgose net worth is about 10 times Sony's


RE: haha!
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 4:14:20 PM , Rating: 1
If MS is as true American as you say it is, its manufacturing of the 360 (which is the topic of the discussion) would be made in the US, but its not. Its still being manufactured overseas, like everything else. How do you minimize loss on a system you already are going to lose money on? buying the cheapest parts you can and putting it together.

I doubt MS would like to pay for US manufacturing of the same machine. It would probably cost them 3-5x more to make.

Sorry, but thats the sad truth. They makes things cheaper and we are glad to pay for it.

BTW, MS may make the Windows software, but discs, packaging, and everything outside of the actual code on the disc is manufactured outside the US, then shipped here. Gotta cut costs somewhere.


RE: haha!
By ViperROhb34 on 1/24/2008 4:20:24 PM , Rating: 2
Gates and Co has not only helped this country, they've helped others more times that can be listed here. Gates was in Germany this month to give 235 million dollars(161 million euros) so kids would have morere computers into classrooms.

MS money has not only helped fuel growth in Silicon Value and anytin related to computers - they've fueled this entire country.

MS invest and keeps its money in US markets. While Sony keeps of America is not a sperate entity and funnels most of its net income to Sony Japan.

In effect with such a huge amount of money (15.9 Billion in revenue in 1 qtr ) Microsoft has a positive effect on the American economy and helps keep it strong. It invest in numerous American companies such as HSBC American Equity, and even American Express.

If you think that MS ghoing down wouldnt hurt the USA tremendously I would call you nothing short of an idiot.

Even on something as small as software. American software companies lost $11 billion in revenue in 1998 due to global software piracy. This, in turn, resulted in a loss of more than 100,000 jobs in the U.S. ( where we live ) and $1 billion in tax revenues to federal, state and local governments.


RE: haha!
By DJ Tama on 1/24/2008 4:27:16 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not stating MS going down wouldn't hurt the economy, in fact, if you remember way back when when the first Anti-trust suits were going against MS, they announced that they might consider pulling out of the US and going elsewhere. And if you remember the initial reaction, you'd understand how big a portion MS is in this government and its economy.

And currently, with the world markets reacting to our markets, if you control the US markets, you control the world.

MS has that in its hands. And it would be blindness not to see any other company in the world not attempt to strive for that same power.

When MS does go (if ever), there will be such a power vacuum that could possibly reset all the markets in the world, or even bring about a greater depression than that of the 1920's, on a global scale...


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/25/2008 12:23:05 PM , Rating: 2
Bill gates donating money to German children? Somebody stop him, he's taking money out of America and destroying the economy :)!!!!!! Unless he's paying them in Euros, which they'd probably prefer anyway for obvious reasons these days...


RE: haha!
By BAFrayd on 1/24/2008 10:45:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And to fix your statement, everyone wants to be MS: the largest, most profitable, most powerful company in the world, with a powerful grasp of every world government and economy.


MS the largest, most powerful company in the world? Please. Not even close. They wouldn't even make the top 50.
Google it. Maybe you'll get an education about the real world.


RE: haha!
By BAFrayd on 1/24/2008 10:47:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And to fix your statement, everyone wants to be MS: the largest, most profitable, most powerful company in the world, with a powerful grasp of every world government and economy.


MS the largest, most powerful company in the world? Please. Not even close. They wouldn't even make the top 50.
Google it. Maybe you'll get an education about the real world.


RE: haha!
By robinthakur on 1/25/2008 12:08:35 PM , Rating: 1
USA USA!!! You make me laugh. The reason companies go under is because they cannot compete either on quality or on price. If more AMERICANS were choosing to buy Sony's its a free market and they had the right to choose. If GE made better products and manufactured them in the far east cheaper they might still be around. As it is, they were strategically outclassed by superior tech in a free world market. I much prefer Japanese companies to American ones (i'm from the UK) because to me video games ARE Japanese. I find the Xbox leans far too much to try and please US gamers as you might expect from a MS device and that consequentially you never get the games I like on the console.

The American economy does not suffer when you "send money abroad", regardless of what you might have heard your redkneck father say, its when your imports exceed your exports that trouble starts brewing. You seem to import most goods from the "Yellow Demons" (aka China) with one hand while paying the world to buy American Steel with the other and fighting 2 large scale wars ($4 Trillion and counting), at the same time as your housing market is in melt-down because your banks unethically leant money to NINJA (No Income No Job/Assets) borrowers (hoping to capitalise on the reposessions but actually getting trapped in negative equity) which was then subsequently packaged and repackaged up as toxic waste bonds and sold all over the world, thus spreading the liability and fostering worldwide recession. I don't think you should worry about the Yellow Demons so much as the people killing America from the inside.

The Yellow Demons' console circuit boards don't melt under heat, or it that a new All-American feature? I know you enjoy "blowing shit up" in America, who would have thought it would be your Xbox's next?!?

Seriously though, Americans do still design quite a bit of hardware, like Nvidia, Apple (har har), Intel etc. no need to get your knickers in a twist darling. If your economy is on its knees with the currency devalued and a world leading deficit, you can hardly blame the Yellow Demons. Also best not to make them mad. If they (and the brown demons, I should add, who you've been sending colossal amounts of money out of the US to in return for Oil) withdrew all their funds from American banks, the economy would be wiped out, MS or not, and America would swiftly disintegrate.


RE: haha!
By TSS on 1/25/2008 7:52:12 PM , Rating: 1
this is about as low as i can go on this page.... 180 comments so far...

it's amazing. after about 7-8 versions of windows and the original xbox (i remember stories about BSODs with the original Xbox at the launch in north america) it still starts a discussion whenever MS knowingly releases faulty shit.

you'd think we'd expect it by now.


"Death Is Very Likely The Single Best Invention Of Life" -- Steve Jobs













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