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A full 2/3 of the high definition market will be universal players by 2012

The war between high definition formats is still raging and no one is ready to declare a winner yet. Blu-ray is currently outselling HD DVD for the most part, but it’s too early to count HD DVD out with strong sales and backing from some major motion picture studios.

Anyone old enough to recall the war between VHS and Betamax at the dawn of the VCR age can’t help but draw comparisons with the Blu-ray, HD DVD format war. In war for VCR format supremacy VHS won and relegated Betamax to niche use only. Many feel that today’s format war may never see a clear victory of one format over the other, and a recent study gives strength to that argument.

new study from ABI Research looks at the growing market for high definition drives in the computer market. According to ABI Research the high definition market in computers will be worth $2 billion USD by 2012. ABI says that the vast majority of that market, a full two-thirds to be exact, will consist of universal high definition drives capable of reading both HD DVD and Blu-ray formats.

If ABI Research is correct, a market dominance by universal players will render the format war moot as consumers would not have reason to prefer one format over the other from a hardware perspective and it would reduce some of the competitive drive behind the competing formats to negotiate exclusives for one format over another is the majority of users could view both formats.

One could reasonably expect the home entertainment marketplace to look similar in the same time span. ABI says that its research shows that about 30% of computer users currently use DVDs for data storage and the storage capacity of modern DVD media is adequate for most storage needs.

In fact, only recently have rewritable HD DVD drives become available in notebook computers, while rewritable Blu-ray drives have been available for a while. ABI Research principal analyst Steve Wilson says, “ABI Research expects high-definition drives to bring in revenues of about $2 billion by 2012. Of that, about two-thirds will be accounted for by universal drives, which can play either format. Few universal drives are sold today, partly because of their higher price. But those prices will fall to about the same as Blu-ray players by 2009, and we forecast universal player sales to exceed Blu-ray the following year."

The currently low adoption rate of universal players, such as the Super Multi Blue drives from LG, is blamed on the significantly increased cost for the drives when compared to single format drives. Frequently consumers can buy individual Blu-ray and HD DVD drives for the same cost. ABI says it expects the price of Blu-ray players to drop in 2009 as the technology matures. This will mean cheaper Blu-ray lasers which will in turn make universal drives cheaper to build.



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Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By masher2 (blog) on 1/1/2008 7:09:45 PM , Rating: 2
> "ABI says that the vast majority of the market...will be compromised of universal high definition drives capable of reading both HD DVD and Blu-ray formats."

I've been predicting the same result for over a year now. The HD format war isn't going to be "won" by either side; the average consumer will simply buy a dual-format player, and neither know nor care which format their movies are in.

Here's a blog I wrote on the topic early last year:

http://www.dailytech.com/HD+Format+Wars+Declaring+...




RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By codeThug on 1/1/2008 7:33:51 PM , Rating: 1
That fact alone makes this war fundamentally different from the VHS/Beta debacle. People should quit comparing the two, get off the fence, and buy a combo reader.

The choice now becomes, who is offering the best content for the lowest price.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By mindless1 on 1/1/2008 10:31:29 PM , Rating: 4
Except that HD-DVD only readers may remain less costly in the shorter term, and ultimately what content is available will depend on whether one format takes enough market share to make the other less attractive.

IMO, we can assume content will be made available for the perceived winning format, it's not as though content producers will be such snobs to ignore the profit potential of supporting customers' demands for either format.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By mcnabney on 1/2/2008 9:52:46 PM , Rating: 4
Can you imagine Sony releasing HD-DVDs?

Me neither. Sony always reminds me of the kid who takes his ball, bat, and bases home if the other kids won't play his way.


By mindless1 on 1/3/2008 3:34:57 AM , Rating: 4
Yes I can, when you consider Sony's movie studio associations.

Do you deny that sony made VHS players?


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By Belard on 1/3/2008 7:34:44 AM , Rating: 3
But I don't agree with that.

The ONLY cheap HD-DVD players are the 1080i models from Toshiba which go for about $200~250. The $100~200 players are gone and were nothing more than the dumping of old-stock.

At Best Buy this Christmas, they were selling the SONY BR-Player for $300... quite a bit cheaper than Toshibas 1080p player. Currently WalMart is selling SONY for $348.

(From Best Buy)
# of BR-players to choose from = 8 reputable manufactures.
(SONY, Samsung, Sharp, Pioneer and Panasonic)

# of HD-DVD players = 3, from Toshiba ONLY. Prices are $300, $400 and $500... guess which ones have 1080p.

HEY GUYS - Just checked the prices at Walmart.com Philips Blu-ray player is now on the market. But what I also notice is that NO TOSHIBA players are listed, period.

As someoneone posted about the ONLY HD-DVD player (some junk made by some very off-brand company) "New statistics now indicate Blu Ray owns over 73% of U.S market, also 73% in Britain, and a whopping 95.2% in Australia!" I don't know where this info comes from... last info I have on the Japanese market, Blu-ray has over 90% of that market.

Let's see... 11+ available models from 7 companies vs 3 from 1 company. (Not including the PS3. Sharp sells a BR player on the market)

PS: newegg sells the sony for $299.
PS2: I do NOT include dual-players in the headcount.
PS3: $50 is not much of a savings from a 1080i player vs a 1080p player - especially when the $50 more expensive player has over 75% of the market.

I do NOT own any HiDef player, nor do I own an xbox or Playstation of any sort.

The HD war isn't over (Paramount accepting the bribe from Toshiba helped a lot), but with these numbers - who wants to bother buying a dual-format player or stores carring 2 formats of simular media? What if you want to take your BR disc to a friends home and he doesn't have a dual-format HD player? Back in the early 80s, there was Laser Disc vs. Video Disc... Laser Disc murdered Video disc because it was a vastly better format (but Video discs stored the 12" "DVD type disc" in a plastic caddy sleeve)...

Sorry, but the argument of cheaper players means nothing. If price sold more product, then Amiga computers would have more PC market than Microsoft/etc - back when they made computers in the 80s~90s...


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By omnicronx on 1/3/2008 9:33:13 AM , Rating: 2
Your whole post is BS!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_...
--I own this player, your so called 'off-brand company' is just a repackaged Toshiba HD-A3. DT actually had an article on it in the past, but nice try.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_...

The Venturer costs 189.99 (almost half the price of a BD player) and the toshiba costs 250. A far cry from the 300$ you mention. The venturer is also only $200 in Canada which is leaps and bounds lower than any other price of any other player.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_...
Meanwhile the cheapest BD player costs 50 dollars less than a ps3.

You would also know by doing a little research or maybe reading older DT articles that 1080i vs 1080p makes little difference for high def players. 1080i for hddvd/BD is not the same as broadcast 1080i, the full native resolution is still being displayed as the frames are timesync'd and put back in perfect order by your TV's deinterlacer. (And don't give me the argument that better TV's really do look that much better, as a better TV should actually make less of a difference as the deinterlacer is probably better.

Ill end in telling you PRICE DOES MATTER! HD-DVD cheaper and continues to be cheaper than Blue-Ray. It's a well known fact about 65-70% of all BD players out there are PS3's and we all know what great attach rates they have been getting.
So next time please come in here with some better stats and maybe some proof, instead of saying something stupid that anyone can easily look up to prove you wrong.

P.S I was going to buy a 40GB PS3 this christmas until I found a $200 HD-DVD player at Walmart, a full $150 below any other high def player I have seen at normal prices in Canada. For me price mattered, and it swayed me from buying Blu-Ray, I am sure many other people are in the same boat.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By Belard on 1/4/2008 9:19:48 AM , Rating: 1
No, my post is not BS.

I admit, there was some sort of ODD error in that now that Toshiba is listed.

But no... your OFF brand is still an OFF BRAND... it has a 90day warranty. Vs 1 year from most other companies (including Sony, Toshiba, Philips, etc). And while it maybe a re-badge Toshiba, there is most likely cheaper or missing parts... this is TYPICAL in the electronics industry - even within a name brand. Look it up. Hence, you can get low-cost and high cost motherboards from Asus that do the same thing... for the most part. Or a company may sell a lower-quality version of a VCR (whatever) to Mexico than the USA and give the Mexican market a shorter warranty period.

Quick google on Venturer is = LITTLE demand... from both Target and Walmart. People who buy $1500~$4000 HD-TVs are not going wet their pants on saving $0~100 on a no-name brand product.

Again, you say I am BSing - yet please show us the HUGE list of HD-DVD players... Oh yeah, Toshiba and re-badged low-Q bing Toshiba players. Doesn't change the fact there are over 10 available brands of Blu-Ray (not including LG's dual-format).

Oh, today I was in walmart. No Venturea on the shelf or listed. But they had the Toshiba A3 for $299... but next to it, the Sony for $288. I don't know why, but that is what's listed on the shelf.

The PS3, while is a BR player, is also a full blown console with a Hard Drive... its a pretty good deal considering that the CHEAPEST HD-DVD with 1080p is still $400, usually.

i vs p: Some say there is no difference. Some say that 1080p looks better, especially on BIG TVs (60" and larger)but none have said that 1080i looks better than 1080p.

PS: while many PS3 owners DO NOT watch BluRay titles on their console, the amount of PS3 sold up to know is around 7 million units. Compared to about 1 million Toshibas.

Facts remain... in titles sold, for every 1 HD-DVD sold, 3 Blu-Rays are bought - in pretty much every market.

HD-DVD Choices: 5
- Toshiba (x3)
- Venturera (limited)
- Xbox Add-on ($180 - required a the console)

Blu-Ray Choices: (13)
- Sony Players (x3)
- Sony PS-3 (x2 current models)
- Samsung (x2)
- Sharp
- Pioneer (x2)
- Philips
- Panasonic (x2)

Not including discontinued models from either side.

Coming soon: Marantz, Mitsubishi, Funai, Lie-On, Denon, Daewoo (I know) but kills venturea.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By omnicronx on 1/4/2008 10:08:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Again, you say I am BSing - yet please show us the HUGE list of HD-DVD players... Oh yeah, Toshiba and re-badged low-Q bing Toshiba players. Doesn't change the fact there are over 10 available brands of Blu-Ray (not including LG's dual-format).
And amazingly all of those 'other' brands all sell for the same price 300-350+..
Wow.. what a great advantage, my mind has been changed.

As for the Off-Brand venturer player. Once again you dont know what you are talking about.. same parts except for the lcd display (which is better) and the casing. Other than that the components are almost exactly the same. Which is probably why I, along with many others have updated their firmware with the Toshiba HD-A3 firmware.

http://www.venturer.com/productimages/SHD7000Ventu...

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/produc...

Notice how they look exactly the same ?
quote:
PS: while many PS3 owners DO NOT watch BluRay titles on their console, the amount of PS3 sold up to know is around 7 million units. Compared to about 1 million Toshibas.
Who cares? The PS3 is not going to decide the fate of the next gen format, because unlike the PS2, its not in the living room of everyone in north America. Until Stand Alone systems become mainstream, all those numbers mean nothing anyways, you can not expect the PS3 alone to drive BD sales, and BD standalone sales are lagging compared to HD-DVD.

I am not advocating either format, each has its advantages and disadvantages. I personally do not trust the ongoing spec changes from sony. 1.0, 1.1, eventually 2.0, I just have no idea whats going to work, and what problems may arise. On the HD-DVD side, you still have to pay the same price as an entry level BD player to get 1080p, and BD has more movie studios on their side. Either way as I have said many times before, dual-format players will eventually become mainstream, and I really do not foresee either format going away in the near future.


By Belard on 1/8/2008 12:58:30 AM , Rating: 2
Compared to 9 months ago, the MSRP of the cheapest Toshiba was $500 (HD-A20) - same price as the 20GB PS3 back then...

Point: prices for ALL hardware is dropping. $0~75 price difference is not much of a deal breaker. As proven, the black-friday $99 HD-DVD players didn't do much damage to the blu-ray market.

Oh, so the Venturer is a major brand? Where do you take it for servicing?

quote:
Who cares? The PS3 is not going to decide the fate of the next gen format, because unlike the PS2, its not in the living room of everyone in north America.


Er... Toshiba has shipped out 100,000 HD-DVD players. There are more Blu-Ray players out there, NOT including PS3. And yes, the 7million PS3 *DO* make a difference. If 1/10th of them are used as Blu-Ray players, that's still 7x time user base over Toshiba.

And uh... are you saying that Toshiba *IS* in every living room? I don't own ANY Playstation...


By RamarC on 1/4/2008 9:37:25 AM , Rating: 2
omnicronx is right but i don't think the belard's post was complete bs.

holiday prices at best buy can't be used for comparison. (try and find a $200 pc with monitor and printer after dec 25th.) the lowest priced blu-ray player at best buy and circuit city now is $399. and you won't find one that's cheaper than sony's own player (except for a brief sale).

yes there are more vendors making blu-ray products, but they're practically identical. the distinction between bd players is more like buick vs. pontiac (80% same hardware) rather than honda vs. pontiac (90% different hardware).

the a3 is $200, the a30 is $250, and the 1080p a35 is usually $350. so the entire lineup is cheaper.

and the amiga analogy is completely lame. so even though amiga was cheaper, it didn't support the software that drove sales of pc's (lotus 1-2-3, wordperfect, and dBase). if it ran that software, then the pc industry might be completely different today. on the other hand, both bd and hd players play movies and their outputs are completely indistinguishable.

toshiba seems to be willing to go it alone (as far as major manufacturers go), but apple managed to carve out a niche for itself with the same tactic. i expect lg and samsung to start making hd players (since they already have the licenses to do so) and the marketplace will become more crowded.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By nemoshotyany on 1/1/2008 7:38:14 PM , Rating: 5
Nice Prediction. Here have a cookie.


By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 10:01:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nice Prediction. Here have a cookie.


Is it an evil cookie?


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By AlexandertheBlue on 1/1/2008 9:51:15 PM , Rating: 3
I don't disagree, it is one of the things that I have been waiting for before jumping on the high def train.

However, it is possible that both high def formats will go the way of beta-max despite their higher quality. I see 2 reasons for this. The biggest is that for most people regular definition DVD is good enough. They don't care that the picture or the sound quality is better.

http://www.avrant.com/?p=218#more-218

The second reason is that we will likely see some form of downloadable/on-demand/non-physical format take over before either high def format becomes as ubiquitous as regular DVD.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10-reas...

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/10-more...

I admit that the first link is not an expensive or expansive survey but I do believe it is accurate because it mirrors conversations I've had with the people I work with and the people I go to school with.

The 2nd links are admittedly opinion pieces; however, they come from an individual who has quite a bit more experience with A/V issues than I do. I actually hope he is wrong, but I suspect he is right


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By masher2 (blog) on 1/1/2008 10:58:34 PM , Rating: 5
> "However, it is possible that both high def formats will go the way of beta-max despite their higher quality"

Possible, but doubtful. Remember that the "dual-format" players will all play standard DVDs as well. So once those players break the $100 barrier, why would anyone with an HDTV not buy in?

> "The second reason is that we will likely see some form of downloadable/on-demand/non-physical format take over "

Again, doubtful, from an infrastructure bandwidth if nothing else. It's going to be at least 10 years before a majority of the nation has the bandwidth to download HD content in near real-time. (and yes, I know *some* areas can already do it today. Those are pilot areas. Buildout takes time, especially in rural locations).

Also, don't forget there are consumer comfort issues with buying content without physical media. Many people want to own something physical for their money....especially when DRM issues will likely prevent that downloaded content from being easily backed up.

> "it is one of the things that I have been waiting for before jumping on the high def train."

Why wait? Your discs are going to be good regardless of which format you choose. You'll only be out the cost of the player regardless...and given you'll likely replace that player with a new model that costs somewhere in the $100 range, you'll really only losing that $100 by being an early adopter.

Assuming you already own an HD display or two, isn't $100 worth not having to wait another couple years for cheap dual-format players?


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By marvdmartian on 1/2/2008 9:55:28 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Remember that the "dual-format" players will all play standard DVDs as well. So once those players break the $100 barrier, why would anyone with an HDTV not buy in?

How about people that already have an upconverting dvd player, that also has the divx capability, like the one I already bought for far less than the $100 price you're quoting. I have NO reason whatsoever at this time to upgrade, even though I have an HDTV. For me, the quality is more than good enough, and I feel as though the negative aspects of the HD players and disks (cost, cost, and oh, did I mention cost??) far outweigh the positive, for me at least.

quote:
It's going to be at least 10 years before a majority of the nation has the bandwidth to download HD content in near real-time. (and yes, I know *some* areas can already do it today. Those are pilot areas. Buildout takes time, especially in rural locations).

The only thing I have to counter that argument with, is how does the population density compare with the areas that already have that bandwidth capability, or soon will? I'd bet they run hand in hand, which makes your point lose some of it's power. Add to that the fact that the rural areas that don't have the high bandwidth capability also probably don't have cable, and are receiving their tv signals by either using dish satellite (which can handle higher bandwidth, though by no means as high as cable), or the old fashioned OTA "rabbit ears", and are unlikely to switch any time soon. Folks out in the sticks really don't care whether they have high speed internet or not, which is likely one of their compelling reason for living out in the sticks.
My point is, the high density areas will be the high bandwidth areas, thus satisfying a high percentage of the population. The rest will be just as happy with what they already have offered to them.

quote:
Assuming you already own an HD display or two, isn't $100 worth not having to wait another couple years for cheap dual-format players?


NO. See my first argument. Sorry, but I have no intention of adopting either format, for my tv or for my computer. At least not until the price gets to a fraction of what we're seeing now (and a pretty small fraction at that!). Why should I buy now, when really the only incentive you're offering up is a faster drop in the price???


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By omnicronx on 1/2/2008 12:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about people that already have an upconverting dvd player, that also has the divx capability, like the one I already bought for far less than the $100 price you're quoting. I have NO reason whatsoever at this time to upgrade, even though I have an HDTV....... etc etc.. NO. See my first argument. Sorry, but I have no intention of adopting either format, for my tv or for my computer. .... blah blah blah
I see a lot of 'I's in your statements, so I would like to remind you from the beginning the world does not revolve around your personal preference.

I would like to start off with your comment about upconverting DVD players. Most people do not have one as they already have a DVD player, and I noticed most people found little point in upgrading to something that their TV does marginally well anyways if they have an HDTV.

I personally found the difference between DVD and HD-DVD/BD astounding if you have a TV that is 37' or larger.

As for your cost statement, its great that you think this will be the reasoning high def formats will fail, but the high introductory prices for HD-DVD/BD should not surprise you. DVD's used to cost just as much, same can be said of VHS if you include inflation. Prices will go down as it becomes less of a niche market. I guess you skipped a few too many grade 11 economics classes.

quote:
My point is, the high density areas will be the high bandwidth areas, thus satisfying a high percentage of the population. The rest will be just as happy with what they already have offered to them.
I dont even know what you are talking about here, right now in north america if everyone were with this so called 'high bandwidth capabilities' were to make use of internet phoning, the internet would probably come to a standstill. As it stands, we do not currently have the capability to have mass On-Demand services for high def movies where the data is sent over the internet as you described. To tell you the truth I do not see it happening soon either, the closest I foresee is cable and satellite companies continuing to expand their internal On-Demand LAN services. Believe it or not, people like owning movie hardcopies, its just not the same downloading or streaming something for one time use.


By Oregonian2 on 1/2/2008 1:56:39 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I personally found the difference between DVD and HD-DVD/BD astounding if you have a TV that is 37' or larger.


I've found that a good DVD (upconverted w/a 981HD player) can look quite impressive, while crummy DVDs don't look so great. But then our screen is a LOT smaller than 37 feet. Our room is too small even if we could afford one, ours is only 58 inches!


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By marvdmartian on 1/2/2008 4:11:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
quote:How about people that already have an upconverting dvd player, that also has the divx capability, like the one I already bought for far less than the $100 price you're quoting. I have NO reason whatsoever at this time to upgrade, even though I have an HDTV....... etc etc.. NO. See my first argument. Sorry, but I have no intention of adopting either format, for my tv or for my computer. .... blah blah blah
I see a lot of 'I's in your statements, so I would like to remind you from the beginning the world does not revolve around your personal preference.

I never said it did, did I?? Why not, instead of saying something like that, just make the statement that not everyone is going to have the same feeling about things as I do, instead of insulting me? Thanks, too, for adding the "etc etc" and the "blah blah blah", pretty much ensuring that anyone you're arguing against will just automatically tune out any pertinent points you have to argue. Perhaps instead of taking your grade 11 economics classes, you might have considered a class on debate, or perhaps even basic etiquette??

quote:
I would like to start off with your comment about upconverting DVD players. Most people do not have one as they already have a DVD player, and I noticed most people found little point in upgrading to something that their TV does marginally well anyways if they have an HDTV.

I could counter your argument with the fact that you assumed much more than I did in my argument, first by stating that most people don't have an upgrading dvd player (back it up with facts, or put in something to the effect of "I believe..."), and then by assuming that everyone who has an HDTV will have a 37 INCH or larger. Not everyone has the room for a larger HDTV (IMHO), or simply hasn't spent the money on a larger one (IMHO)......and as far as myself, I don't belong to the "big tv little pecker" club, so certainly don't have a 37 FOOT HDTV.

quote:
As for your cost statement, its great that you think this will be the reasoning high def formats will fail, but the high introductory prices for HD-DVD/BD should not surprise you. DVD's used to cost just as much, same can be said of VHS if you include inflation. Prices will go down as it becomes less of a niche market.

I don't believe I ever made the statement that the formats will fail, only that there's people like me that won't bother adopting these formats until the prices go way down from even their current levels. I also never stated that I was surprised at the high prices, as I've kept my eye on the high tech market long enough to know that initial prices are astronomical, but eventually settle down, with any product that comes to market, once it becomes more mainstream and commonplace, but mostly once it becomes cheaper .
I think my main point on this wasn't to challenge your views by saying you're wrong, but more to say that yours isn't the only way of looking at the situation. To you, early adoption made sense.....and I'm happy for you, really I am! But to me, until we see a more firm grasp of what's going to happen in this "format war", and until they can make the cost much cheaper for what I see as an insignificant change in quality, then I won't bother adopting the technology......and I'm betting that there's plenty of people like me that are thinking the same way. There's no right or wrong in this, just different opinions, ya know?? :)

Insofar as my statements about population density versus high bandwidth/high speed access, I was only stating that it's (IMHO) far more likely that the people that live in the high population density areas will want the high speed and high bandwidth services that would be required to do movie downloads, especially those that would be required for HDTV quality video. Personally, I wouldn't care to just download a movie and not have a hardcopy capability, and believe that's why we're seeing services that offer that failing miserably (like the recent demise of Walmart's video download service).

Sorry if I sounded as though I was saying you were dead wrong in your views, and didn't have anything valuable to say, as that wasn't my intention. I hope that my reply here is more reasonable, without being condescending, and hope that you'll consider the little matter of manners and etiquette in your own replies in the future.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By omnicronx on 1/2/2008 6:38:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Perhaps instead of taking your grade 11 economics classes, you might have considered a class on debate, or perhaps even basic etiquette??
I was merely pointing out your entire post was based around what 'you' want/need. You never gave an example of anything other than personal preference.

quote:
I could counter your argument with the fact that you assumed much more than I did in my argument, first by stating that most people don't have an upgrading dvd player (back it up with facts, or put in something to the effect of "I believe...")
I don't need to back it up, its common sense. DVD has been out since 98 and has been mainstream since at least 2001. Until a year and a half ago, upscalling DVD players were out of even my pricerange. Who was going to pay 200-300$ for a upscalling DVD player when you could pick one up a normal one for 50$. That said, even giving you the benefit of the doubt that 50% of people of dvd players sold within the past 2 years bought a player with upscalling capabilities, that would probably still make up less than 20% of the players out there.

As for the second comment about screen size.. I think you need a bigger screen. Never did I say everyone who owns an HDTV has a set over 37 inches, in fact my statement does not even remotely resemble what you just said. All that I wrote was that personally I notice a huge difference when watching HD movies on a tv that is 37 inches or larger, regardless of how far you sit back.

I'm not trying to make fun of you, I just really disagree with your opinions.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By Oregonian2 on 1/2/2008 8:13:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who was going to pay 200-300$ for a upscalling DVD player when you could pick one up a normal one for 50$. That said, even giving you the benefit of the doubt that 50% of people of dvd players sold within the past 2 years bought a player with upscalling capabilities, that would probably still make up less than 20% of the players out there.


First of all, upscaling DVD players (w/HDMI connection) start at about $40~50 and have been massively advertised this Christmas season. Even a year or so ago when we got a cheap LCD HD set for our bedroom, we got a Sony upscaling one for around $110 or so at Costco, but prices have dropped quite a bit since then -- although one can buy $200 ones such as the OPPO 981 units or much higher prices in some of the fancier brands. But plenty are available cheap and in our cheap LCD HD receiver it made a HUGE difference because the set's internal scaler sucked very seriously. So when you go nowadays down to k-mart or some other high end store for a DVD player (humor based sarcasm!) one probably will end up with an upscaling DVD player (although probably only out it's HDMI connector). For that matter, just the HDMI is almost worth it to get rid off all those thicker and numerous cables. Just one thin cable for both audio and video.


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By omnicronx on 1/2/2008 11:29:32 PM , Rating: 2
What was the point of your post? Are you trying to say everyone has bought a dvd player in the past 2 years?


By Oregonian2 on 1/3/2008 2:38:01 PM , Rating: 2
Mostly responding to this comment. If one has an HDTV that can take in upscaling, then the cost of a $50 DVD player is peanuts and can be bought while tossing out the old one even if it otherwise works fine (I just gave mine to my brother). I saw one newspaper ad for a upscaling HDMI wielding DVD player for $39.95 within the last few weeks. IOW, a "normal one" is now an upscaling one.

And if talking about a year or two ago, upscaling ones weren't $200~300 then either (or didn't have to be). I addressed this as well.

quote:
Who was going to pay 200-300$ for a upscalling DVD player when you could pick one up a normal one for 50$.


By Fritzr on 1/4/2008 3:29:00 AM , Rating: 2
I have 6 DVD players. None of them upscale. Should I pay current price for a DVD player just to add another drive to my parts box? The older ones still work just fine and I'll get another the next time I purchase a preassembled computer. That one will likely have the upscaling capability or maybe not. Since I do not use a 37" or larger display, this capability is just a bullet point that I ignore

As far as competing formats, you can still buy DVD+R(W), DVD-R(W) and DVD-RAM disks. Owners of older DVDRW drives need to check the label when buying blank media, owners of newer drives have multi-format writers and do fine just by avoiding DVD-RAM media as it is the one most commonly not supported. Since multiformat BD/HD/CD/DVD drives are easily built I expect these drives to eventually become the mainstream form with drives supporting only one of the BD/HD standards eventually becoming the $40 budget drive that is avoided by people who actually read the tech specs :)


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By robinthakur on 1/3/2008 5:03:36 AM , Rating: 2
Clearly you both belong to different demographics. Omnicronx is an early adopter, willing to spend more (taken in the context of the market as a whole and not just us geeks) whereas the other guy clearly has a lower budget and likes good-value, mature technology. Both are valid points, though I tend to side more with the former.

I think that the generation after this one, is the one where bandwidth will have caught up with current video size sufficiently to be viable, but this discounts consumers being happy with non tangible products; So far, on demand movie services have not been a resounding success...

Alot of people in the UK are now buying minimum 37" HDTVs and apart from Sky HD (a fairly wallet busting subscription satellite service) there is no broadcast HD. Nevertheless, most people perceive and believe that they are watching HDTV once they've purchased the television on its own. The likelihood that they have a)Seen proper HD running on a Full HD screen and b) were discerning enough not to just think "Ooh nice picture on that TV" and related the image quality to the content as well as the display device is small to nothing. You would be surprised...most people are dumber than the most stupid person you've ever met, and that's just in the UK, imagine what its like in the US!

For most people who don't own >37" TV's (still the majority, sadly) DVD players and content is cheap, and good enough quality above SD broadcasts to make it a no brainer and they are happy. Pigs in sh*t as the saying goes. I have a PS3 and a 46" 1080p TV, a not-inconsiderable disposable income and have dabbled with Blu ray, but wouldn't say that I am regularly willing to pay the premium price for a movie I will probably only play once. Its nice to show people what the TV is capable of when they come round, but apart from that I don't use it. Crucially I wouldn't have bought a stand alone blu ray or HD DVD player currently, regardless of the cost.


By omnicronx on 1/3/2008 9:35:28 AM , Rating: 2
Smart post, good points.. I'd rate you up if I could ;)


RE: Its becoming obvious to everyone...
By roadrun777 on 1/3/08, Rating: 0
By Alphafox78 on 1/4/2008 3:21:00 PM , Rating: 2
wow


By Belard on 1/8/2008 7:22:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Assuming you already own an HD display or two, isn't $100 worth not having to wait another couple years for cheap dual-format players?


Not really. The loss is far greater than that. So, where are these $100 HD-DVD Players? Typical retail price for such a player is still $300. (I am aware of older models going for almost $100 - but those older players used to go for $400~600 and only 10s of thousands of people bought the $99 black Friday special.)

So if/when Paramount or Universal switches in the next few weeks, it DOES mean the other will soon follow suit.

The end result, the Early adopter typically spent $300~500 for an HD-DVDplayer, some as high as $800+! They are not just out of $100, but their HD-DVD library is effected with each title costing about $25~30 a pop. If a typical HD-DVD owner has 25 titles (I have over 500 DVDs) that is about $700 spent on software alone... then when the HD-DVD player dies in a few years and there are no Combo-players to buy... well they are screwed.

I still have my Laser Disc collection, hmmm I need to buy a used player since mine died a few years ago. But then I have to hook it up, etc etc...

Point being: When or if HD-DVD loses, people would have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on the the, they will not be happy. The longer this takes to end, the worse it gets... Time to shoot the poor horse.


By JAB on 1/2/2008 7:07:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I admit that the first link is not an expensive or expansive survey but I do believe it is accurate because it mirrors conversations I've had with the people I work with and the people I go to school with.


Evaluating the truth of a statement by how much it agrees with your beliefs is just about the worst way to do it.

Also stating that People need to understand all the details to make a decision is silly. They need to see it and not have some insane price to buy it. Saying these formats were a flop because they did not sell well when they were 1000 dollars is the height of elitism.

Price and availability are only now coming inline with the general market. Many store were not even bothering to display them because they hurt the sales of older models but no one wanted to cough up the price for the full 1080P systems.


By 16nm on 1/2/2008 9:29:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't disagree, it is one of the things that I have been waiting for before jumping on the high def train.


Amen to that! I will happily buy a combo player when Microsoft buy Cyberlink and add HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray support to Media Center. This shouldn't present a problem for such resourceful company like MICRO$OFT.


A very different war
By Justin Case on 1/1/2008 7:05:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyone old enough to recall the war between VHS and Betamax at the dawn of the VCR age can’t help but draw comparisons with the Blu-ray, HD DVD format war.


No, anyone actually old enough to recall the early VHS and Beta days will realise the current situation isn't even remotely similar.

It's the people who know the "Betamax vs. VHS war" only through (frequently misleading) myths that keep using it whenever a "format war" pops up.

Early Betamax tapes couldn't hold more than 1 hour of video. That's what doomed it (a practical, technical aspect; consumers and video rental clubs didn't want to have movies split across two, sometimes three tapes). When Beta finally broke the 120-minute barrier, VHS simply had too much momentum with consumers. Beta lived on in the professional space.

The war between the HD formats is a matter of marketing. Blu-Ray and HD DVD can both fit a full movie (and more) in a single disc. Also, most movies were available in both Betamax and VHS formats. Very few movies are available in both Blu-Ray and HD DVD. Again, this is a purely commercial war.




RE: A very different war
By masher2 (blog) on 1/1/2008 7:16:36 PM , Rating: 2
> "anyone actually old enough to recall the early VHS and Beta days will realise the current situation isn't even remotely similar."

Don't be silly. Of course the situations are similar, which is why you'll never find a thread on HD-DVD/Blu Ray that fails to mention Betamax.

The important factor, however, is how the two situations differ . Unlike todays HD discs, VHS and Beta were differing form factors. That in itself pretty much precluded dual-format players from taking over the market.

> "Also, most movies were available in both Betamax and VHS formats. "

No, not in the early days. In the mid 70s when these were first introduced, most movies were *not* available for either format, much less both. In this respect, it is again situation is again identical to today's situation, or in the early days of DVD for that matter. (I think a grand total of 10 movies were available when I first purchased my player).


RE: A very different war
By BladeVenom on 1/1/2008 11:17:26 PM , Rating: 2
It's more similar to SACD vs. DVD-Audio. However those both lost to CDs, and MP3s. Of course I'm not going to say DVDs and Divx are going to win, but they are still in lead.


RE: A very different war
By Silver2k7 on 1/2/2008 12:58:04 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm did they now.. have you looked at the prices of SACD/DVD-Audio players ? yes there are combo players wich also plays regular CD's.

Most of the ones ive seen are in the audiophile or reference class.. ive yet to see a $100 or even a $200-300 SACD/DVD-Audio player.

If there was an inexpensive player i would purchase one, since ive got a few DVD-Audio discs.


RE: A very different war
By namechamps on 1/3/2008 7:22:17 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think you looked very hard. Try typing in SACD into amazon search window. There are plenty of SACD/DVD-A combo players for $100-$150. You can even get a nice Oppo 1080p upconverting SACD, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, Mp3, divx and more for $200.

Doesn't matter SACD is dead. High prices didn't kill SACD. Nobody cares.


RE: A very different war
By Oregonian2 on 1/2/2008 2:18:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No, not in the early days. In the mid 70s when these were first introduced, most movies were *not* available for either format, much less both. In this respect, it is again situation is again identical to today's situation, or in the early days of DVD for that matter. (I think a grand total of 10 movies were available when I first purchased my player).


I think what was meant was that movies that were available on tape were mostly available in both formats. I found that probably not quite literally true (VHS had a little higher count at the very large "internal" rental place at the store that sold the players -- blockbusters, etc didn't exist yet). They didn't like the beta ones though because Beta movies had at LEAST two tapes while most all VHS movies was one tape, something that was much easier for them both in terms of keeping track and in terms of storage space they needed to hold them. At least in terms of the guy behind the counter that I talked to, I have no idea what the store owners thought.

But what the other fellow said is critical. Blu-ray and HD can both do the job, they can both present the same HDTV movie with a quality presentation (despite more secondary issues of PIP and the like). Beta could too, but required a tape change, and that's where another big difference happens.

VHS/beta machines recorded movies, the HD/Blu "contest" now is primarily player-only. A very big difference. The early Beta machines couldn't record a movie off the air unattended (and even with attendance might lose a bit unless tape change was during a commercial). The beta/VHS war wasn't a player-only war, it was a player/recorder war.

The contest for Blu/HD home recorders for the masses isn't a contest that has even been started in earnest of yet, but that was critical in the VHS/beta war.

That also makes something to be said for regular DVD's and the inexpensive DVD recorders that are available.


RE: A very different war
By Justin Case on 1/3/2008 10:53:06 PM , Rating: 2
And I'm the one being "silly"...?

quote:
No, not in the early days. In the mid 70s when these were first introduced, most movies were *not* available for either format, much less both.


DUH! Most movies that were available in video were available in both formats. You didn't have studios backing a particular format over the other.

The Betamax vs. VHS war was decided by technical aspects. Blu-Ray vs. HD DVD is a matter of marketing. And the sooner people understand that they're being milked for the sake of it, the better.


RE: A very different war
By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 10:26:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yes Yes Yes... We all know the story of VHA and Betamax. But did you know the real reason behind Betamax failure? What they don't publish is the fact that porno movies had to be cut in half and it was always at a good scene too. This angered the demographic of buyers (which were males at the time, as most women were still just secretaries). Sometimes the truth isn't told so that we get a cleaner version of history.

The so called "war" of HD will end with the winner being the one that has the cheapest per disc price and of course the most titles of availability. I for one would like to see this war escalate into a street fight with casualties and suicide bombers strapped with HD format discs and explosives running through malls and rental stores.


RE: A very different war
By Justin Case on 1/3/2008 11:01:10 PM , Rating: 2
The "Betamax died because of porn" myth seems quite popular on the net - especially with 14 year old geeks, for some reason.

I daresay most of them tell it a little differently from you, though.

In fact, there were tons of porn on Betamax (more than on VHS), because Betamax players could pause and VHS players could not. Also, a lot of pornos were under 1 hour long, and fit perfectly in Beta tapes.


Major typo
By cory107 on 1/1/2008 6:03:11 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure the title of the article should be changed... 2102... I'll bet High definiton discs aren't around by that time... just a comment...




RE: Major typo
By Fnoob on 1/1/2008 6:08:39 PM , Rating: 2
It's no typo. That's when the HD war will finally end... and we get holodiscs.


RE: Major typo
By Webreviews on 1/1/2008 7:59:38 PM , Rating: 5
Actually there will be two competing holodisc formats.


RE: Major typo
By Schadenfroh on 1/1/2008 9:32:31 PM , Rating: 4
With one format not being able to do picture within a picture within yet another picture until profile 1.1.


RE: Major typo
By cory107 on 1/1/2008 6:37:18 PM , Rating: 2
well now they have changed it, funny while it lasted...


By 9nails on 1/1/2008 8:25:42 PM , Rating: 2
Still DRM is holding both formats back. Until HD media can be legally shifted to alternate formats (such as iPod Video, Cellular Video, PSP, or DVD to name a few) enthusiasts will continue to ignore both of these formats. They just don't offer enough to justify the leap from standard definition to high definition.

I suppose there are a hundred more reasons why not to purchase either HD video format, but suffice to say that the reasons not to purchase are greater than the reasons why one should buy in.




By elpresidente2075 on 1/1/2008 9:13:25 PM , Rating: 3
HDCP FTL


By pomaikai on 1/2/2008 8:28:13 AM , Rating: 4
I will not jump on the HD band wagon until I can rip a purchased copy to my hard drive to stream to my TV's. I hate having to look all over the house trying to find a disc and then remember it is in the DVD player in the truck. I like to rip it to my PC to stream to a TV, make a copy for the truck, and keep the original in the closet.

I have also not gone to downloadable content because I want the physical disc. Hard drives crash and companies go under, but the DVD I bought 10 years ago still works perfectly.


By theapparition on 1/2/2008 10:52:28 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I will not jump on the HD band wagon until I can rip a purchased copy to my hard drive to stream to my TV's.

The feature your talking about is Mandatory Managed Copy, something that is part the the HD-DVD specification and a primary reason that Intel/Microsoft jumped ship from BR to only support HD-DVD. HP threatened defection unless BR added "Mandatory" to their managed copy spec. So, AFAIK, it's part of both specs.


By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 10:38:09 PM , Rating: 1
EEEEE Gods! Pirates have it soooo good. They get high def formats that are transferable to any device and don't suffer this problem of DRM. They are soooo lucky. With those MKV file formats and everything. Geesh.. It makes you want to be a pirate, like Johnny Depp.
I imagine that the RIAA will eventually own every sound, including speech, and the MPAA will own all video and all rights to broadcast any video (including home video). So you might as well give up now and just have massive state sanctioned arrests. Everyone should pay fines for speaking and recording video, if they can't pay they should be terminated on the spot and all their home videos of their cats meowing will be confiscated and sold to private executives for their private collections "Of When America was Free" and shown to the wealthy and elite so they can laugh at us while they destroy any notion of media "ownership".


Another typo ...
By Surak on 1/1/2008 6:48:40 PM , Rating: 3
I thought this was a typo, but they have it twice, so it must be some freudian slip.

"... the storage capacity of modern DVD media is antiquate for most storage needs. The antiquate storage space coupled with ..."

I assume they mean DVD storage space is adequate ... or do they mean that the use of DVD storage is antiquated?

Who cares. In a year or two, there will be a new format available, it will be bigger and better, Sony will have their own twisted version of it, and we will be waiting through another useless format war.




RE: Another typo ...
By Belegost on 1/1/2008 6:59:28 PM , Rating: 2
I'm glad somebody else noticed that. I had to read that section thrice to figure out what exactly was meant.


RE: Another typo ...
By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 10:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
Actually the storage space is antiquated by far... Considering that holographic storage techniques which were perfected almost 15 years gave rise to dvd's and dual layer dvd's, could also be used to make triple layer, and quad layer etc. But they have refused to produce it. Currently the only real affordable way for people to back up their files is by using many dvd's, and it's very cumbersome. Tape is so antiquated that it makes me want to vomit. It's also the slowest backup medium still in existence.
So yes DVD's are old. Optical storage has been deliberately sabotaged by legal maneuvering which limits the size of newer technology. This is sad considering that we could have optical discs that could store several terabytes by now if it wasn't for this game of politics.
I have so many home movies on DV tape, and High Def format that take up huge amounts of space (12 gig per dv tape, and 40-120 gig per movie). I can't very well back them up to dvd without creating a truckload of discs to carry around!
So don't give me any crap about how I don't need that much space, because I do and so do a lot of other people.


RE: Another typo ...
By CascadingDarkness on 1/4/2008 2:43:36 PM , Rating: 2
Check these previous DT links for past announcements on the exact things your asking for.

Quad layer DVDs
http://www.dailytech.com/Quadlayer+DVD+Technology+...

Triple layer HD-DVD & Blu-Ray with suggestions 10 layer is possible
http://www.dailytech.com/Three+HD+Layers+Today+Ten...


Not a surprise.
By Oroka on 1/1/2008 10:48:17 PM , Rating: 3
Unless there is a HUGE tip in the scales, BD and HD-DVD will go the way of DVD+ and DVD-. I have been planning a HTPC for a while now, and recently discovered a LG BD/HD hybrid drive that burns standard DVD for about $300 right now. Once it hits $200, I am grabbing one and the format war becomes moot for me.

They should have continued the hybrid format, cause there wont be a clear winner, and the only party that will be laughing is the consumer who gets the best of both worlds.




RE: Not a surprise.
By mcnabney on 1/2/2008 10:23:30 PM , Rating: 2
There are still issues with the LG drive getting the new HD audio off of the computer. Some audio cards can do DTS/Dolby 5.1, but those sweet uncompressed HD audio channels are worth the wait. Heck, I don't care if it goes out as a Bitstream for the receiver to decode or goes out as multichannel LPCM. That is the key step.
Also, look up FFDshow. Runs as a filter on a variety of HTPC players and upscales DVDs to near HD. I have never seen any standalone player touch it. Not the HDDVD or BD players either. The do-anything PC with a decent CPU can do some impressive stuff.


RE: Not a surprise.
By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 11:17:01 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, I am surprised someone thinks like me. I don't like stand alone set top units for the simple fact that they can't play every format I want to play, and they rarely are ever updated from the companies that make them. Why update when you can force the consumer to buy something new again, right?
Well, exactly! That's why if you buy something like a stand alone player, don't ever count on it being updated to support anything. Now take a stand alone laptop with digital video out and digital audio out, and you have a wicked awesome machine for playing high def formats and it upscales better than the most expensive units. Plus its wireless, it has expandability via USB ports, and you can easily buy a remote control and software for a front end player. Some people just don't get it. They are stuck in the ancient idea that it has to be a stand alone box to be considered a high end component for a home theater and what they don't realize is that the right kind of laptop (or htpc) is the ultimate player.


Hey, everyone is finally getting it!
By InfoWorkshop on 1/2/2008 12:01:34 AM , Rating: 3
It's so gratifying! Yes, this is nothing like VHS vs. Beta because those formats were physically different. HD DVD and Blu-ray are just the next in a long series of file and media formats supported on the 120mm compact disk. It's not like someone is introducing a 9" high-def disc, equivalent of a clunky 8-track tape. Search on "Compact Disc" in Wikipedia and you'll see that there are at least two competing formats for EVERYTHING, e.g. Dolby/DTS, TrueHD/HD-MA, SACD/DVD-Audio, MPEG2/H.264/VC-1, etc, and now HD DVD and Blu-ray. Heck even standard DVD comes in at least two formats -- NTSC and PAL. You can go to Best Buy and pick up a player for under $50 that plays both NTSC and PAL discs.

Yes, we want universal drives that will play both high-def formats as cheaply as the rest. The sooner the fan boys get it and stop fighting each other and turn their attention to the industry and insist on universal players, the sooner we'll all just get along.

Right now I'm off to Amazon's BOGO sale to get the first four original Harry Potter movies on Blu-ray for $10 each. Having the two camps at each other's throats is a good thing!




By 16nm on 1/2/2008 2:21:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It's not like someone is introducing a 9" high-def disc


Shh! Don't give Sony the idea.


hi-def wars
By 33stubb on 1/2/2008 12:13:42 AM , Rating: 2
Aren't some manufacturers creating Blu-Ray on one side of the disc and HDdvd on the other?




RE: hi-def wars
By Oregonian2 on 1/2/2008 2:20:21 PM , Rating: 2
I think those were put on indefinite "hold".


RE: hi-def wars
By mcnabney on 1/2/2008 10:11:06 PM , Rating: 2
He is thinking of the Superdisk which had regular DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other. It is being discontinued...


Writable
By Segerstein on 1/2/2008 11:50:46 AM , Rating: 2
I'm more concerned with BD-R / HDDVD-R formats. I need some more storage space to create backups of my HDDs. It is very impractical to write 200GB of data to DVDs these days.

Of course, I could back it up on another HDD, but I don't trust HDDs, as there are many more possible points of failure: lightning, mechanical errors, incompatible interfaces...




RE: Writable
By mcnabney on 1/2/2008 10:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
Why would you do that?

recordable BD - $12 for 25GB or 2.1GB per dollar
recordable DVD - $0.25 for 4.7GB or 19GB per dollar
a second 500GB HDD for $100 - or 5GB per dollar

It looks like BD is the most expensive way to backup. Personally, I would go with the extra bare drive for pure backup purposes. Backup and toss the drive in a firesafe. It won't melt.


RE: Writable
By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 11:06:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why would you do that? recordable BD - $12 for 25GB or 2.1GB per dollar recordable DVD - $0.25 for 4.7GB or 19GB per dollar a second 500GB HDD for $100 - or 5GB per dollar It looks like BD is the most expensive way to backup. Personally, I would go with the extra bare drive for pure backup purposes. Backup and toss the drive in a firesafe. It won't melt. botimage

That isn't practical... optical medium is much easier and safer to back up on. His point is valid, and it's been my point for a long time. I don't want a hard drive that is prone to failure as my backup medium. The only way to assure my backup is safe is to actually use 3 hard drives, two for data and one for parity, that ASSURANCE is what he is after, and it's what I am after. I need to know that my backups are safe and can be retrieved, and hard drives can fail over time, even if they aren't used at all. They can also fail for no reason other than bad electronics and can be wiped clean if put too close to a magnetic source. Not to mention being dropped.
The optical storage market has been deliberately sabotaged. It's not like we are talking about tech that isn't already in existence, because it is, and has been for many years now. It's just the industry is fighting political agendas, and that is plainly what is keeping these higher formats from people, and that is just sad. It makes me want to wear my T-Shirt that says "Shoot a lobbyist today, save the world tomorrow"


headline?
By Andrwken on 1/1/2008 6:04:02 PM , Rating: 2
You sure you got the headline right? I clicked on it just for the laugh of it.




RE: headline?
By diego10arg on 1/1/2008 10:06:22 PM , Rating: 2
They have already fixed (?) it.


Impossible to Predict the Future
By mthomas on 1/2/2008 11:54:55 AM , Rating: 2
Alot of folks are working on new materials and its up in
the air what will come down.

We would like to think multiferroic spintronics / holographics.

http://colossalstorage.net




By Fritzr on 1/4/2008 4:12:03 AM , Rating: 2
The HVD WORM drive is now available :D (Write Once Read Many, think CD-R)

Gen 1 drive stores 300GB per disk. Available now. InPhase predicts 18-24 months per gen. Currently planned are Gen 2 drive at 800GB & Gen 3 drive at 1.6TB

InPhase: http://www.inphase-technologies.com/
They have links to distributors on their website. This drive is available for purchase today, hopefully by 2012 this will be the "disk of the future" that will displace the HD disk that replaced the DVD that replaced the VCD :P

Early adopters get your HVD drive today only $18,000 for the read-write drive & $180 per blank disk!

No sign of the Optware solution after the 2005-2006 media blitz so that drive may be dead in the water.

To add to the price comparison earlier the HVD is currently 1.75GB per dollar. Hopefully price will drop a little in the next few years.


DVD vs HD-DVD/Blu-Ray
By Enigmatic on 1/2/2008 2:35:23 PM , Rating: 2
Personally, I find it ridiculous (even somewhat ludicrous) when people say that upconverting DVD players are good enough. Perhaps lesser HDTV's don't do HD movies justice or perhaps you just need a larger screen, but on my Pioneer 5070 after a watching an HD-DVD (I personally don't own a player but a friend brought over his 360 HD-DVD player) the difference was night and day. And it was almost painful to go back to regular DVDs. Sometimes I question those who vehemently support the quality of regular DVDs if they even own a HDTV.




RE: DVD vs HD-DVD/Blu-Ray
By roadrun777 on 1/3/2008 11:21:12 PM , Rating: 2
High Def porn will make you never go back to regular dvd porn. It's just not the same!!! So I know what you mean.


By 2012...
By DigitalFreak on 1/1/2008 6:22:38 PM , Rating: 3
PowerDVD will still suck




By kilkennycat on 1/1/2008 10:38:48 PM , Rating: 1
Just as 99.9999% of the current stand-alone DVD-players and PC-drives handle all DVD and CD formats,in 2012 there will be ZERO business in single-format High-Def play-units. Even M$$ and Sony will have to swallow their pride(s) and integrate multi-format play-units (High-Def and SD)into their game-consoles. The only single-format High-Def play-units left will be in use by the early-adopters or more likely in their junk-pile in the garage.

Well before 2012 the prices of dual-format will cross-over the single-format prices --- the usual side-benefit of volume-demand. Mass-production mechanics and full silicon-integration will take care of ALL dual-format complexity. With the billions of dollars at stake there is no alternate-solution




By grampaw on 1/2/2008 5:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
Few observations/comments:

Once you've tasted 1080p, it's hard to go back.

Not sure why people buy a HDTV without digital TV service (I have cable box w DVR), Blu-ray player (Have PS3), and HD-DVD player (Toshiba A20).

Who cares about 2012 - any existing equipment will be broken, functionally obsolete, etc. My stuff is about 1 yr old and I figure about a 5 yr life, which puts me at ... yr 2012.

HD-DVD and Blu-ray players upscale way better than upscaling SD players or the HDTV. And the latest PS3 FW includes playing DIVX.

I'm really enjoying renting, or buying, any format DVD and seeing everything in the best resolution possible. I don't understand what other people are "waiting" for.


Error?
By therealnickdanger on 1/2/2008 11:17:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
ABI says that the vast majority of that market, a full two-thirds to be exact, will be compromised of universal high definition drives capable of reading both HD DVD and Blu-ray formats.

I'm not one to tell another what he means to say, but I believe you meant "composed" or "comprised".




Impossible to Predict the Future
By mthomas on 1/2/2008 11:54:24 AM , Rating: 2
Alot of folks are working on new materials and its up in
the air what will come down.

We would like to think multiferroic spintronics / holographics.

http://colossalstoragel.net




"So if you want to save the planet, feel free to drive your Hummer. Just avoid the drive thru line at McDonalds." -- Michael Asher














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