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Leaked court docs also show that Phil Schiller expressed displeasure with Apple's ad agency

Apple’s never-ending court battle with Samsung has recently resulted in a treasure trove of internal documents leaking to the internet. The latest round of documents making their way to the public domain include slides that shows Apple’s concerns regarding its lack of affordable smartphones and smartphones with screen larger than 4 inches.
 
The documents also show that Apple’s Phil Schiller was extremely upset with Apple’s advertising agency for not developing an ad campaign worthy of sufficiently promoting the iPhone's virtues.
 
I. Cheaper Smartphones, Screens Larger than 4”… Where Are They?
 
The first of the leaked slides from Cupertino show the incredible boom in smartphone sales over the past three years, and that Apple is completely missing the boat with regards to affordable smartphones (sub $300) and large-screen smartphones (larger than 4 inches):

 
But the most troubling aspect for Apple is the slowing growth rate for its iPhones. Despite the fact that Apple likes to tout during its earning releases that iPhone sales are increasing year-over-year (which is indeed true), the rate of growth in recent years has plummeted:

 
The chart shows that iPhone sales experienced a steady decline in YOY sales growth until fiscal year 2012, when the YOY growth was a still admirable 74 percent. However, the first quarter of fiscal year 2013 saw that YOY growth fall dramatically to 26 percent and then again to 12 percent for fiscal Q2 2013.
 
Apple’s explanation for its slowing sales is precisely what many analysts and tech enthusiasts have been stating for years:
 
 
There’s not much Apple can do about competitors stepping up their game with regards to hardware and software, or even its competitors’ (namely Samsung) willingness to empty their wallets on advertising.
 
However, the company has tried to address the “lower cost” bullet point with the iPhone 5C to less than stellar results — off contract pricing for the smartphone still remains relatively high. Apple is more than likely to address the lack of a large-screen smartphone offering with the launch of the iPhone 6 later this year — another year of stalling on this front seems unimaginable at this point.


iPhone 5C
 
As for its relationship with wireless carriers, Apple is no longer the only game in town when it comes to high-end smartphones that customers love, so playing hardball with subsidies and “unfriendly policies” isn’t going to fly anymore. Apple realizes that its competitors have stepped up their game in the smartphone sector, so Apple will accordingly have to adjust its demands from carriers that today aren’t so dependent on the iPhone anymore.
 
II. Phil Schiller Praises Samsung’s 2013 Super Bowl Commercial, Chastises Apple’s Ad Agency
 
We previously reported that Apple’s Phil Schiller was none to pleased about the Wall Street Journal’s article entitled "Has Apple Lost Its Cool To Samsung?" So naturally, Apple in 2013 turned to its ad agency, TBWA/Media Arts Lab, to provide a return salvo to level the playing field.
 
However, TBWA/Media Arts Labs’ email response didn’t make the situation better; it only inflamed matters.



 
[Image Source: Business Insider] 
 
Comparing Apple’s current situation to its dire straights in 1997 was enough to enrage Schiller, who sent back the following response:
 
 [Image Source: Business Insider]
 

The ad agency tried to smooth things over and apologize for the earlier email, noting that the company feels “100% accountable for our part of this job which is to create great advertising for apple and [its] great products.” The unnamed person communicating with Schiller went on to grovel, stating, “I can see my reason was over-blown and not at all helpful. I’m sorry.”
 
Schiller was still not impressed, and made it clear that he was actually quite fond of Samsung’s 2013 pre-Superbowl commercial.


 
I watched the Samsung pre-superbowl ad that launched today. It's pretty good and I can't help but think 'these guys are feeling it' (like an athlete who can't miss because they are in a zone) while we struggle to nail a compelling brief on iPhone. That's sad because we have much better products. Something drastic has to change. Fast.
 
You can read the rest of the back-and-forth between Phil Schiller and TBWA/Media Arts Labs at Business Insider.

Sources: Scribd, Business Insider



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What Apple still hasn't realized...
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 9:43:38 AM , Rating: 5
What Apple still hasn't realized is that some people don't want to live in a prison. It doesn't matter if you call it a "walled garden" it is still a prison. Telling people what they can and cannot do, who they can and cannot buy from, what types of web pages they can and cannot view is NOT cool.

Sure, maybe by limiting your options it's easier for grandma to figure out the phone, but for the rest of us what we really want is a pocket computer that can do whatever we want, and truly be ours.




RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Dorkyman on 4/8/2014 11:11:10 AM , Rating: 5
I worked for Apple back in 1984 when the Mac was first introduced. I was at the Hawaii sales conference when Jobs showed the 1984 Super Bowl commercial for the first time. A magical moment burned forever in my memory.

Amazing how time changes things, yes? Now Apple has become the IBM zombie on the screen, telling the sheeple how to think. Wonder what Android could do with an ad mimicking the original one but with the heroine wearing a shirt with the android robot on it?


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By inperfectdarkness on 4/8/2014 12:59:29 PM , Rating: 5
Thank you!

I've been saying that for years. Apple has become big brother. If Apple would just tear down the walls (iTunes, NTFS write capability, etc)--natively, it would flourish. Apple could be a great platform to turn techno-illiterates into techno-savvy, but instead they've decided to imprison consumers--woefully fearful of losing them.


By Ammohunt on 4/8/2014 2:09:04 PM , Rating: 1
Apple has always been a privileged Eco-system its their thing. Walling off things makes it a helluva lot easier to provide a consistent computing experience.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By tonyswash on 4/8/14, Rating: -1
RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Nutzo on 4/9/2014 1:14:29 PM , Rating: 2
I'd have to say it's more like a prison for many people.

I know several people at work who wanted to switch to something else (like android with a larger screen), but ended up buying another iPhone because it would be too expensive/to much trouble to escape the iOS ecosystem.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By inperfectdarkness on 4/9/2014 3:23:47 PM , Rating: 3
This. And that's the reason Tony's "Gated Community" analogy is off base. You can move out of a gated community. iOS is more like Hotel California...or if you will, a roach motel.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2014 7:05:05 PM , Rating: 2
More like the Event Horizon.

"Oh no, you can't leave. She'll never let you leave..."


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By lawrance on 4/8/14, Rating: -1
RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 11:30:48 AM , Rating: 5
Choosing to get in isn't what makes a prison a prison. It's only when you want to get out and they won't let you that you realize that you are in a prison. You can't get out. But like most Apple faithful, you don't care because its been so long since you've known freedom that you've forgotten what its like.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By lawrance on 4/8/14, Rating: -1
RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By StevoLincolnite on 4/8/2014 1:25:12 PM , Rating: 3
Well, Mr' Jobs said that if you wanted to watch Porn you should get an Android Phone...


By Dug on 4/8/2014 2:12:08 PM , Rating: 3
I haven't had any problem on my iphone or ipad


By chripuck on 4/9/2014 8:53:51 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, that's idiotic. He was referring to Apps. The web is still full of content streaming via HTML 5 (which Jobs was right on over Flash). There's also adding your own content.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By invidious on 4/8/2014 2:13:37 PM , Rating: 4
You think its Google's fault that Android devices can't sync with itunes? Madness. Apple prevents this to preserve their closed garden business model. itunes is a main selling feature and iphones/ipads/ipods are major cash cows, so they arbatrarily tie them together. If you are compelled to leave your idevice behind you also have to leave behind your itunes library which as you said yourself is not something you are willing to do.

They do this at the expense of alienating the vast majority of the market by not allowing anyone outside the wall to use the iTunes market to purchase music, tv shows and movies.

So who you do you think is footing the bill to keep this wall up when there is so much money to made by opening up itunes to everyone? You are.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 2:30:02 PM , Rating: 1
People here are idiots when it comes to Google.

The other day some moron was blaming Google for not "making available" Google Play books and music etc etc on iOS.

LOL as if Google is the one who's at fault! Like Apple is really going to allow an iTunes competitor on their own platform?


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By themaster08 on 4/8/2014 4:48:25 PM , Rating: 1
Get it right, Reclaimer. What I said was that Google should provide apps so that consumers can access their current Play services content, of which someone indeed corrected me and informed me that these apps do exist on iOS, which I conceed.

Again, reading comprehension failure because your head is so far up Google's ass you're unable to comprehend even the slightest amount of criticism to your beloved Google.

You're a hypocrite, an elitist, you have to personally insult people because you're unable to have an open mind. You're irrational and biased beyond reason. You read only what you want to read and you pull facts and figures out of your ass. The worst part is that you're unable to see that you're the Tony Swash of Google.

Whilst some of us may be "idiots" when it comes to Google, you're just an idiot, full stop.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 6:03:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
What I said was that Google should provide apps so that consumers can access their current Play services content, of which someone indeed corrected me and informed me that these apps do exist on iOS, which I conceed.


So basically you pulled a criticism out of your ass that was entirely incorrect.

You don't get to do that, then accuse ME of doing the same thing like you have the high ground.

quote:
You're a hypocrite


Pot meet....you know the rest.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By ritualm on 4/8/2014 10:05:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
So basically you pulled a criticism out of your ass that was entirely incorrect.

You don't get to do that, then accuse ME of doing the same thing like you have the high ground.

Who does? You?

Considering the foundation that your arguments are built upon is a mud flat, care to explain what sorts of moral "high ground" do you have?

You cannot provide any, other than claim how people who disagree with you are "idiots".
quote:
Pot meet....you know the rest.

Go back under the bridge, troll.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Wazza1234 on 4/9/14, Rating: 0
RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Cheesew1z69 on 4/9/2014 9:54:00 AM , Rating: 2
Says another troll.... LOL


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Wazza1234 on 4/11/2014 6:21:34 AM , Rating: 2
You're no different in that every single one of your comments is anti-apple trash. The only difference is that you lack the half intelligence they have so you can't even argue your point properly.

What did others call you? The Dailytech monkey? Bang on!


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/11/2014 6:48:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What did others call you? The Dailytech monkey? Bang on! - See more at: http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Consumers+Want+What...
No, a single moron, yourself called me that. As for lacking intelligence, you may want to look in that mirror.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 3:36:57 PM , Rating: 5
"Enlighten me. What "freedoms" and I missing?"

Larger Screens, Higher resolution screens, Higher DPI, Edge to Edge display, Micro SD card, Removable batteries, NFC ,- 802.11ac, Mini HDMI port, Cant set default apps, Back button, Widgets, Live wallpaper, cant play HD content without downscaling, Greater than 5x4 icons, Multi user support, Multi Window support, pop up browser, waterproof models, active stylus support, Micro USB, Plug and play as a flash drive to copy files.

Is that enough or do you want more?


By ritualm on 4/8/2014 7:07:38 PM , Rating: 2
"Once you've gone black, you'll never go back."


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By lawrance on 4/9/2014 7:46:57 AM , Rating: 2
First off the question is what AM I missing? - A question you can't answer for me because my needs / wants are different from yours.

Secondly, the argument is about this so-called prison after purchase and is referencing SOFTWARE limitations. Clearly you understand the context. But thanks for answering incorrectly with a bunch of hardware examples.


By Schrag4 on 4/9/2014 12:37:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
First off the question is what AM I missing? - A question you can't answer for me because my needs / wants are different from yours.


Were you really not wanting any feedback, since nobody can speak for you? You asked the question.

quote:
Secondly, the argument is about this so-called prison after purchase and is referencing SOFTWARE limitations. Clearly you understand the context. But thanks for answering incorrectly with a bunch of hardware examples.


I think the response about hardware limitations was pretty valid. Is Apple planning on releasing a product with all of those features soon? If not, why is it not legitimate to bring them up?

I have to wonder why you're posting here. Are you trying to win over the hearts and minds of those that see serious shortcomings that are preventing them from choosing Apple? It seems clear to me that you're not. Are you just trying to defend your own personal purchase to complete strangers on the internet?


By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 8:49:12 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Larger Screens, Higher resolution screens, Higher DPI, Edge to Edge display, Micro SD card, Removable batteries, NFC ,- 802.11ac, Mini HDMI port, Cant set default apps, Back button, Widgets, Live wallpaper, cant play HD content without downscaling, Greater than 5x4 icons, Multi user support, Multi Window support, pop up browser, waterproof models, active stylus support, Micro USB, Plug and play as a flash drive to copy files.

Is that enough or do you want more?


This is like saying that Android is a prison because you can't get iOS on it, or because you can't get a working fingerprint scanner, or because you can't get flagship performance in a small package, or you can't get a decent camera at the same time as quality build materials.

But the stupidity doesn't stop there. See, he has every bit as much freedom to buy phones with any of the features you listed as you do. Yet if he chooses not to buy phones with those, they're obviously less valuable to him than what he would have to give up in order to have them.

Silly comment.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 8:49:12 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Larger Screens, Higher resolution screens, Higher DPI, Edge to Edge display, Micro SD card, Removable batteries, NFC ,- 802.11ac, Mini HDMI port, Cant set default apps, Back button, Widgets, Live wallpaper, cant play HD content without downscaling, Greater than 5x4 icons, Multi user support, Multi Window support, pop up browser, waterproof models, active stylus support, Micro USB, Plug and play as a flash drive to copy files.

Is that enough or do you want more?


This is like saying that Android is a prison because you can't get iOS on it, or because you can't get a working fingerprint scanner, or because you can't get flagship performance in a small package, or you can't get a decent camera at the same time as quality build materials.

But the stupidity doesn't stop there. See, he has every bit as much freedom to buy phones with any of the features you listed as you do. Yet if he chooses not to buy phones with those, they're obviously less valuable to him than what he would have to give up in order to have them.

Silly comment.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By retrospooty on 4/9/2014 10:47:03 AM , Rating: 4
Sorry that you still cant understand simple English from up there on your soapbox. He asked what he is missing by using iPhone. I answered with a partial list of things he cannot get.

If anyone wanted the opinion of a biased nutjob they would have asked you to chime in.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Wazza1234 on 4/11/2014 6:18:36 AM , Rating: 2
He asked "Enlighten me. What " freedoms " and I missing?"

You listed things he can buy. So you failed.

And if you think you answered with a partial list of things he cannot get, I did the same for Android. Interesting how when I do what you did, you call me a biased nutjob.


By retrospooty on 4/11/2014 8:00:49 AM , Rating: 1
No TG, you were outed as a biased nutjob LONG before this thread. In this thread you have actually kept it pretty tame, for you at least. I know, fear of a 3rd banning keeps you somewhat in check. Loser cubed. LOL.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By chripuck on 4/9/2014 8:56:13 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, you've created a list that, other than larger screen, I absolutely care nothing about and I work in IT and write software for a living. Imagine what my 55 year old parents or my 80 year old grand mother think of your list.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Cheesew1z69 on 4/9/2014 9:55:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I absolutely care nothing about and I work in IT and write software for a living.
Great for you, YOU don't care for them, millions of other people do.


By Wazza1234 on 4/11/2014 6:19:46 AM , Rating: 2
And millions more don't.


By KoolAidMan1 on 4/14/2014 5:59:10 AM , Rating: 2
Freedom of an operating system that doesn't inherently and unavoidably hamstring application quality and performance.

Yeah, that would be awesome.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By tonyswash on 4/8/2014 12:35:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What Apple still hasn't realized is that some people don't want to live in a prison. It doesn't matter if you call it a "walled garden" it is still a prison.


Apple do know that but they just don’t care. And why should they? Such people are insignificant numerically and commercially, and frankly the ones who prattle on about the iOS curated app store being a ‘prison’ are showing signs of some sort of mental imbalance and thus should be positively avoided .


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 2:12:17 PM , Rating: 2
You are right. Apple doesn't care. In fact they went to great lengths to make sure that it was exceedingly difficult to get out of their ecosystem once you were in. Buy music or movies from iTunes? Only work on Apple devices. Buy a speaker for your phone? It only works with other apple devices. Want a memory upgrade? Buy it from Apple for seriously inflated prices. Wanna buy an eBook from Amazon? No, buy it from Apple (and you can't take it with you to any other reader.) Its better this way. Trust us.

It's good business.


By Dr. Kenneth Noisewater on 4/8/2014 4:26:36 PM , Rating: 3
It's also historically out-of-date enough to amount to straw-manny now.

Copy-protection on iTunes store downloads has been gone for awhile now, and AAC is pretty widely supported in Android and other players. The Kindle app for iOS works just fine, though yes you have to go 'out of band' to buy Kindle content for it. You _could_ buy Apple-only peripherals, but that's a choice you make. There's plenty of non-Apple peripherals that use opener-standards like Bluetooth, and Apple devices work just fine with them (finally, after A2DP was added a few years too late).

Thing is, I don't have an iPhone not because of the ecosystem or any alleged jail, it's because the screens are too small and they cost too damn much. The Nexus 5 is superior to all iPhones, and I doubt Apple's going to be releasing a viable competitor at a rational price anytime soon.


By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 8:50:43 AM , Rating: 2
And on top of that, how does charging more for memory upgrades constitute a 'lock in'?


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Helbore on 4/9/2014 7:39:56 AM , Rating: 3
Apple obviously do care, otherwise they wouldn't be getting concerned about their competitors and getting angry with their marketing departments.

If these people were so insignificant, Apple wouldn't be producing slides about iOS growth slowing and trying to determine the reasons why.

They are bothered and as well they should be. Any company that thinks they've got it all sewn up and don't have to worry about where they are falling short is a company that is on the path to losing its dominance.

Yes, I know you'll laugh "Apple dying? Oh don't be so absurd. Crazy fanboys who hate Apple!" But then you are the first to say how megagiant tech corporation Microsoft is all insignificant and you can't wait until they disappear completely.

The truth is no company is so large and successful that they are immune to falling into obscurity. Not even mighty Apple. They need to lok at these issues now and consider how to contend with them, because right now they're still fine and can contend with them. If they sit back and "don't care," then it would be too late to deal with if the worst were to happen.

So yes they do know and yes, they also do care. They're just trying to find the best solution to it that improves their market growth, keeps their competition from eating in to their existing market and maintains as much control over the product/market as they can manage.

But they definitely care.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 8:52:15 AM , Rating: 2
Their concerns about competitors and about their marketing team have nothing to do with any 'walled garden' - which is what is being discussed here. So your entire comment is wrong.


By Helbore on 4/9/2014 9:06:34 AM , Rating: 2
Issues listed that are of concern are that Apple's policies are seen as "unfriendly," and that competitors have drastically improved their ecosystems. Being that the walled garden is one of Apple's "unfriendly policies" and that it is directly related to its ecosystem, I'd say it is entirely relevant to what they are concerned about.

Tony's point was that Apple are aware that people don't like the walled garden, but simply don't care because they're not concerned about the concerns of what he describes as an insignificant part of the market. Tony has also previously stated that Apple don't care about the low-end of the market because it is not significant. But then one of these slides clearly states that the low-end is one of the key reasons for the slowing of iOS growth.

So clearly they are concenred about these things, no matter how much anyone claims they are too small and insignificant for them to care about.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By KoolAidMan1 on 4/8/2014 4:45:56 PM , Rating: 3
The walled garden here has no actual effect on what you can do. The best mobile platform for software is iOS despite not being "open". WP would have better apps if it had more marketshare, but it being closed is not the reason for that.

The most important factor is if developers want to make quality applications for a platform and if it is profitable. The more profitable platform running on faster hardware is going to get those apps. Android is mostly filled with bad ports of iOS apps, crapware, and things like the 17 year old that just got malware disguised as AV software past Google.

There is this false notion that walled gardens result in inferior choices, but that has been shown repeatedly that it isn't the case. Everything else is less important than if it is profitable. Look at Steam, a walled garden that doubles as very restrictive DRM, even more restrictive than iOS, but it is a great service that makes developers lots of money.

quote:
what types of web pages they can and cannot view is NOT cool


Now you're just making things up. You can view any web page you want. You don't even need to use Safari if you don't want, there are other browsers like Chrome and Opera.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 5:43:48 PM , Rating: 1
LOL... Funny, you iPyoon users are left with one tiny sliver - apps. OK, you got it. As for the other dozen things to do with a smartphone, it's a loser, but hey, apps.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/14, Rating: 0
RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 7:50:20 PM , Rating: 2
It's "Better" because 2 years ago it was better is the logic most of them seem to use. They say "its still better", because "this one app is poorly ported" is another one I hear. Ridiculous and short sighted.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By KoolAidMan1 on 4/8/2014 9:51:36 PM , Rating: 1
Its better because developers make more money there which means it will get the most attention, the SDK is better, and the OS isn't inherently broken. There's a whole post on Android and its inherent latency issues in the WP thread if you care to read it. It prevents many kinds of apps from ever being as good as on iOS or WP, no matter how fast the hardware.

On a whim I looked at the Steam app on my iOS and Android phones. iOS version, last updated today. Android version, last updated over two years ago.

Now you're going to say "that's just one app". Unfortunately its typical of how everything is, but I'm not going to waste the time comparing dozens and dozens of apps to try and maybe find a single Android port that's better. If an app is lucky enough to get ported its an inferior version of what's on iOS. Otherwise you have to wait. Then there's all the halfa** shovelware. Google is the only company that makes consistently good apps for Android, otherwise they're terrible.

I won't deny giant screens and SD card slots, of course those are good aspects of Android's flexibility. Saying that there is no difference in apps is the only short-sighted thing here.

I know you love your precious, but you should love it warts and all.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 11:06:36 PM , Rating: 1
"Its better because developers make more money there which means it will get the most attention, the SDK is better, and the OS isn't inherently broken."

??? So, nothing solid, better because better thanks for proving the point - pure rhetoric from 2 years ago.

"There's a whole post on Android and its inherent latency issues in the WP thread if you care to read it."

Oooh a post. How about data? Again, 2 year old rhetoric.

(cant post hte link) Go to phandroid.com and then put the following after the .com and check the article - and the source from a french site.

/2014/04/08/htc-one-m8-screen-latency-scores/

"Now you're going to say "that's just one app". Unfortunately its typical of how everything is"

No, it isn't. Guess when it was? Lets just say about 2 doezen months ago so I am not being too repetitive.

There are literally near a million apps on either platforma nd you can easily find thousands of crappily done ones both ways. Pointless and just stupid.

Yes, the app infrastructure is better on IOS, by a very VERY slight margin. It's not 9 of 10 while Android is 3 of 10. If IOS is a 9, Android is a solid 8. Again, update your 2 year old jargain or just shut up. Tiresome.


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 11:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
By KoolAidMan1 on 4/9/2014 9:40:29 PM , Rating: 1
You said you read the WP thread from Friday. Apparantly you didn't but I assumed you did because you said so.

I tried to link the comments but it didn't work. Here is the post link: http://www.dailytech.com/Windows+Phone+81++Microso...

The relevant post is timestamped 4/4/2014 9:26:47 PM.

This isn't only about UI, it is about fundamental architectural flaws of Android compared to iOS and WP. Its flaws are most easily seen in frame-sensitive applications like audio and video editing. This is one reason you don't see apps of that quality compared to what's on iOS. These flaws extend to every other application where performance and responsiveness matters.

You may not want editing apps, but this is about what Android is capable of doing. It is about choice and possibility. Android won't give you the choice of apps that perform as smoothly or capably until these very basic issues are ironed out.

These aren't pre-4.x issues, these are issues that are there in the latest versions. Any mobile developer will tell you that. This isn't old rhetoric, it widespread feedback from people who make software.

quote:
No, it isn't. Guess when it was? Lets just say about 2 doezen months ago so I am not being too repetitive.


If things were actually fixed then Steam, a major service that has only doubled in size since 2012, would have kept the Android version up to date instead of letting it die. I'm comparing Opentable as I go to dinner and it sucks on Android. Ness isn't even on it!

quote:
Yes, the app infrastructure is better on IOS, by a very VERY slight margin. It's not 9 of 10 while Android is 3 of 10. If IOS is a 9, Android is a solid 8. Again, update your 2 year old jargain or just shut up. Tiresome.


Android is an 8 only if you don't care about feature parity, software quality, performance, UI polish, consistency, and compatibility. Third party Android apps in 2014 are a mess of bad ports and shovelware. Android apps are a solid 7 only on the back of Google's excellent apps, almost all of which are also on iOS. Apps on Android tablets are a 5 at best.

Its the reason I didn't go with a Nexus 5 from my 8X. We'll have to agree to disagree.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 8:56:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
LOL... Funny, you iPyoon users are left with one tiny sliver - apps.


What?

1 - 'iPyoon' - instant proof that you're a fanboy.
2 - Apps are one of many advantages iOS has over Android, such as:
3 - Less Malware
4 - A phone which offers leading camera, battery life and performance, with quality build materials. No Android phone does that.
5 - Flagship performance in a small package (lighter and smaller than Android flagships)
6 - Airplay
7 - iMessage
8 - Better customer support
9 - Better upgrade history and support
10 - Better third party accessories.
11 - Better efficiency and simplicity of iOS.
12 - Better one handed use

Now, this list doesn't mean iOS is better for everyone. It isn't. But you have to be a fanboy far worse than any 'iPyoons' that you imagine to deny that these differences exist and can be preferable to some people.


RE: What Apple still hasn't realized...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/9/2014 10:16:00 PM , Rating: 2
Almost your entire list is opinion, not any kind of fact.

Wake up, it's not 2008 anymore.


By Wazza1234 on 4/11/2014 6:22:41 AM , Rating: 2
No it isn't.


No more distortion field ... must blame others
By DFranch on 4/8/2014 8:34:19 AM , Rating: 5
It looks like Apple's plan was to bury their head in the sand and pretend larger phones with better OS's didn't exist. The Reality distortion field had warn off by this time (except apparently at Apple HQ), and they were looking to blame everybody but themselves.




RE: No more distortion field ... must blame others
By dani31 on 4/8/14, Rating: -1
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 9:54:24 AM , Rating: 2
Android and Windows Phone have both improved dramatically over the last few years. iOS has changed, but not necessarily for the better.

iOS has been passed by the competitors, and they will continue to put distance between themselves as Apple blames the marketing and legal departments for their failures.


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 10:17:26 AM , Rating: 2
That is its strength, but your thought that nothing comes close is basically 2 years old. Much Like the OS and hardware caught up and surpassed Apple, Androids apps are catching up as well. A VERY close second.


By Dug on 4/8/2014 2:14:06 PM , Rating: 1
Very true Jack.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 2:21:34 PM , Rating: 1
I guess by "ecosystem" you mean iTunes...


By FITCamaro on 4/8/2014 3:25:36 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that seemless experience is due to the fact that they wall off everything else right?


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 3:38:02 PM , Rating: 3
I dont think "realize" is in Jack's wheelhouse.


By JackBurton on 4/8/2014 3:38:20 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that is why it works so well, right?


By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 8:58:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You do realize that seemless experience is due to the fact that they wall off everything else right?


You do realize that saying 'anything' is due to 'anything else' is agreeing that 'anything' is the case, right?


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 3:40:04 PM , Rating: 2
Facetime = Google Hangouts
Facetime Audio = Google Hangouts
iMessage = Google Hangouts
Cloud Sync = Who are you kidding, everyone has good syncing now

Hmmm by your rationale, Android has a far superior ecosystem integration. It apparently takes Apple three or four seperate apps to do what I can do with just Hangouts.

And of course there's this thing called Skype.

quote:
all others are VERY disjointed.


Well I just proved that's not true. I know it's hard for you people to accept, but Apple isn't the king at everything.


By KoolAidMan1 on 4/8/2014 4:13:47 PM , Rating: 2
Hangouts is a terrible app on Android and iOS. I hate that Voice is being rolled into it. It and every other Google app (music/video/books included) is also on iOS.

I disagree with the root post but the one point of integration is being missed here. Those different apps aren't launched separately, when you select a contact or whatever there are buttons with which you do Facetime/iMessage/whatever. It isn't like when you want to use Skype or Whatsapp where you have to launch a different app to do a specific thing like voice or VOIP call.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 4:18:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hangouts is a terrible app on Android and iOS.


I use Hangouts, and it's not "terrible" on Android. It's fantastic. And I frankly don't care how it runs on iOS, because the topic is native ecosystem integration.

"Ecosystem" is just another meaningless buzz word you homers toss around because the Apple PR department told you to.

quote:
Those different apps aren't launched separately, when you select a contact or whatever there are buttons with which you do Facetime/iMessage/whatever.


And you think this is something unique to Apple?? Just...wow.


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 4:29:27 PM , Rating: 2
Dont waste your time with Koolaidman. He is Takin' all over again. Same exact soapbox, same exact 2 year old points. Same ignorance on what is going on in mobile today , same need to defend his precious but act like he isn't here defending his precious.


By KoolAidMan1 on 4/8/2014 4:41:39 PM , Rating: 3
There were about a dozen of us current and ex-Android users making the same points in the Windows Phone thread this weekend. Lots of legitimate problems with Android as it stands today. I know you like HDMI ports in your phone but there are lots problems with it. The OS is stagnant, the apps still suck, and the lackluster 2014 hardware updates over the unimpressive ones from last year aren't looking to make things any better.

Interesting how you avoided that WP8 thread though. Couldn't take the heat?


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 5:32:22 PM , Rating: 2
??? Like I have to join every thread? I was busy this weekend and didnt click it. I do like the 8.1 improvements, its geting there.

Looking at the thread, I re-iterate. You are clueless as to how Android operates today, with todays phones. You need to pick up a modern android or just stop posting ignorant non-sense. Everything you say is true... 2-3 years ago. For what its worth, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy an Android that is 2-3 years old.

You dont know what you are talking about and I am tiring of trying to explain things to someone that isnt listening, or is more likely just trolling. Now that I think about it "Interesting how you avoided that WP8 thread though. Couldn't take the heat?" That kind of says it all. You ARE trolling. Take your clueless ass on home. No-one here is buying your line.


By KoolAidMan1 on 4/8/2014 9:39:22 PM , Rating: 1
I have a modern Android phone right here. And a modern WP8 phone. And a modern iOS phone.

Forget me though, here are what other DT Android users said in the thread you dodged on Friday, all running 4.x as far as I could tell:

quote:
I agree totally. I've been an Android user since the beginning, for lack of a better alternative. I don't think anyone is really an Android "fan". It's laggy, sloppy and disorganized. Everything is hidden everywhere.

...

You can harp how wonderful Google's stuff is, how it's a gift handed to you by God himself. The ugly truth is it just isn't all that good.

If music playback on Android is this big of a mess, I shudder to imagine the high hell that is music production. Never mind, you're blind to anything that isn't coming straight outta Mountain View.

...

There's absolutely no reason to be an Android fanboy. There's nothing amazing about the OS itself.


And on and on.

I understand liking Android for the flexibility it gives. To me it is more about unrealized potential than anything else, lots of features that are mostly not very well executed. If you can excuse the rough edges or just rely on Google's own good apps then its fine.

I like things that actually work well with good software. I was this close to getting a Nexus 5 to replace my WP8 as my daily driver, but I think I can wait.

You guys were making the same excuses for Android back in 2011. I even bought into those excuses before waking up. Now you're saying that Android was bad back then but that it is finally good now.

I look forward to you guys badmouthing Android 4.x in 2016, because now Android is finally a good OS...


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 11:10:08 PM , Rating: 2
So what? Other users have experienced issues so that is science? Are you retarded? Do you want me to post complaints about IOS from an Apple forum? Its out there, hell, just google it and youll find it. Your point is as if made by a child. WTF, how old are you?


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 5:55:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The OS is stagnant


lol yeah, it's so 'stagnant' Microsoft and Apple have to directly copy all of their improvements directly from Android.

An OS years ahead of the competition "stagnant". That's just brilliant thinking.


By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 6:03:51 PM , Rating: 2
LOL... Especially coming from an IOS user. The OS that since 2007, basically updated its icons to a flatter look (that it also copied from WP). Added multitasking and a notification system copied from Android and a task switching UI copied from WebOS. ROFL... IOS STILL cant even support multiple DPI settings or multiple users. It's freegin laugh factory when you stack up the technical merits.

"The OS is stagnant"

This isnt the pot calling the kettle black, its the monkey calling Einstein a moron. ROFL... I seriously cant stop laughing at that.


By KoolAidMan1 on 4/8/2014 4:33:14 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't say it was unique to Apple, I corrected you saying that you don't have to launch separate apps.

And Hangouts and Voice are terrible on app platforms. Voice is less terrible, making its discontinuation and roll into Hangouts very bad.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 6:10:42 PM , Rating: 2
You've failed here. Just shut up.


RE: No more distortion field ... must blame others
By ritualm on 4/8/2014 10:01:50 PM , Rating: 2
There you go again, resorting to insults and "your opinion doesn't count" diatribes whenever you're losing in an argument.

I've argued with more intelligent beings than a lowly human refuse like you.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 11:47:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've argued with more intelligent beings than a lowly human refuse like you.


And yet you keep coming back for more :)

I also love how you point out my insults, then call me human refuse and scum and etc etc nearly EVERY post.

Way to not be ironic...


By JackBurton on 4/8/2014 10:07:46 PM , Rating: 2
Wrong, you and your moronic brother retrospooty need to look up the word seamless because you obviously don't know what that means.


By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 9:00:44 AM , Rating: 2
I do wonder if they are brothers. Maybe they are father/son and brothers at the same time.

Both continually trying to validate their ridiculously up-Google's-arse drivel on every article on this website.


By retrospooty on 4/9/2014 10:51:35 AM , Rating: 2
Coming from a man-child who created at least 3 separate userid's after multiple bans here solely for the purpose to troll Apple that comment is absolutely hilarious. WAY beyond pot and kettle here.


By nafhan on 4/8/2014 11:28:57 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Android is Google's shameless data mining machine
...and iOS is Apple's, while WP8 is MS's. Pretending otherwise is silly.


By rocketcuse on 4/8/2014 2:45:00 PM , Rating: 2
yet, IOS keeps adding more and more "features" that have long been a part of Android.


By Dr. Kenneth Noisewater on 4/8/2014 4:31:12 PM , Rating: 2
Nexus 5 with Android 4.4.2 beats all iPhones in terms of hardware and software performance, functionality and (of course) value. Screen is bigger and higher-res, NFC, integrated wireless charging, the installed version of Android is clean and quick, software selection is adequate, and Google Now makes a joke out of Siri.

Apple can either leapfrog the N5 with a 5" HD phone for $299 (16GB) or they can continue to be happy with making a lot of money from a shrinking (relative) market share.


By Wazza1234 on 4/9/2014 9:02:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nexus 5 with Android 4.4.2 beats all iPhones in terms of hardware and software performance


Um, no it doesn't?

Yes, it wins on value. It's SOMEWHAT worse, but it's a LOT cheaper.

It is bulky, and it has a poor camera. And it's not as fast.


By Ragin on 4/10/2014 10:04:27 PM , Rating: 2
It actually has a decent camera, and it is indeed at least as quick or quicker in a lot of scenarios which is more impressive since it is loading and rendering 2.9x as many pixels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjurCN521U

The other points you make are subjective, I don't find it bulky in the least if anything it's a tad small. There are tons of camera reviews on the web comparing both and most seem to agree that there isn't much to choose between them.


By Reclaimer77 on 4/8/2014 11:26:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"That's sad because we have much better products."


Sadly the Reality Distortion Field is still in Shillers own head.

Better products? Debatable. MUCH better? Pass me what you're smoking buddy.


Expensive?
By lawrance on 4/8/14, Rating: 0
RE: Expensive?
By Flunk on 4/8/2014 11:38:18 AM , Rating: 2
If you're buying an iPhone on contract you're paying a lot more for it than off contract, it's just spread out over 2-3 years. Service is a lot cheaper off contract if you look around.


RE: Expensive?
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 11:39:20 AM , Rating: 2
Why are you comparing Apple's contract pricing with Android off contract pricing?

Iphone 5s off contract is $600
Nexus 5 off contract is $400

IPhone 5s with 2 year contract is $200
Nexus 5 with 2 year contract is free.

Even the cheap 5c is more expensive than Google's flagship phone.


RE: Expensive?
By lawrance on 4/8/2014 12:16:29 PM , Rating: 1
You're comparison is unfair.

I wasn't comparing a contract phone to non-contract phones. I was comparing contract phones to contract phones. The majority of the flagship phones on contract run $200-$300.

Why you changed the price in my example is beyond me. You can get a 5S for $119.


RE: Expensive?
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 1:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why you changed the price in my example is beyond me. You can get a 5S for $119.

...after six months on the market to clear out unsold inventory.

That isn't a fair comparison either. Those expensive Android phones will also be sold at a discount after 6 months. I was compareing MSRP to MSRP at release of two comparable products. Not the cheapest iPhone to the most expensive Android like you were.


RE: Expensive?
By Motoman on 4/8/2014 12:49:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who buys off contract?


People with brains.

The problem is that the 5c has to compete with phones like the Moto G - which can be had, full retail - no contract, for $99.

I don't know how people come up with the concept that $300 is "affordable" for a cell phone. $300 is affordable for a *laptop*.

To even vaguely be considered affordable, I think a cell phone has to be under $200 at full retail. But the problem even there is that the Moto G knocks it so far out of the park at $99, that I don't think you can even defend $200 as being the benchmark. I think it's $100 now.


RE: Expensive?
By lawrance on 4/8/2014 12:58:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't know how people come up with the concept that $300 is "affordable" for a cell phone. $300 is affordable for a *laptop*.


$300 for a laptop? Okay, I think we're in different income brackets and will have to agree to disagree.


The delusion is strong with this one...
By maven81 on 4/8/2014 11:34:47 AM , Rating: 3
Hang on... did you guys catch this line in Schiller's email?

"making the world's best products having created the smartphone and tablet form factors".

He actually believes they created the form factors?! That boggles the mind.




RE: The delusion is strong with this one...
By lawrance on 4/8/2014 12:21:20 PM , Rating: 1
You believe they didn't? Apple went all in with iPhone being touch screen only. I still recall everyone complaining there was no physical keyboard and therefore it was doomed. Now it's difficult to even find a smartphone with a physical keyboard. And who in your mind created the current tablet form before the iPad arrived?

<crickets>


By maven81 on 4/8/2014 1:18:53 PM , Rating: 3
You realize that the form factor is just a design language right? That design language had been around for literally decades. That being a thin pad, with beveled/rounded edges, and a screen that takes up the entire front of the device. Just like giant flat screen TVs that hang on the wall have been described in literature for what seems like forever. Which is why you don't see any electronics company claiming that they invented that form factor, do you?
There are other claims they could have made that would be true, for example being one of the first to market with a capacitance based multi touch screen. But Microsoft actually had a tablet PC fully 10 years before the iPad. Granted, it was bulky, and definitely didn't have multitouch, but it was constrained by the technology available at the time.


By Cheesew1z69 on 4/8/2014 1:59:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You believe they didn't?
No, they didn't create the form factor you dolt.


price and technology
By onerec111 on 4/8/2014 8:34:34 AM , Rating: 2
i think apple price is getting higher but their technology is getting cheaper! lol




RE: price and technology
By Gio6518 on 4/8/2014 12:33:27 PM , Rating: 2
It's always been cheaper.....Apple loves to charge a premium for cheaper parts such as slower CPU i.e. 1.3 GHZ dual core (Which Android makers used about 3 years ago) which is a lot cheaper than using lets say the Galaxy S5 2.5 GHZ Quad core, also less memory, and etc. etc. keeps costs at around $200 as always, such as with every generation.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/09/24/iphone-5...

And yes that's straight from an Apple propaganda website so Apple has plenty of room to lower it's prices, and still make a profit...


RE: price and technology
By piomaj on 4/8/2014 7:41:44 PM , Rating: 2
It's true but it's also awfully misleading. Apple cyclone might be just dual core and clocked at 1.3GHz but that's not the whole story. Apple cyclone CPU is just not comparable clock for clock and core for core to qualcomn's Krait or Arm's A15. It's a much wider design with an IPC closer to that of Core architecture then to its mobile competitors. According to Anand it's an 6 issue design, even if in reality it's not that wide it's clear that it's wide even for a desktop architecture and way ahead of mobile architectures in this department. For comparison Krait or Silvermont are just 2 issue wide and even core is 4 issue wide. Apple cyclone core can execute and retire up to 6 instructions per clock, that's massive! It's also the only 64bit Arm CPU currently in use. Even at 1.3GHz it's not any slower than Qualcomn Krait at 2.5GHz or Cortex A15 at 1.9GHz. It's actually a shame that such a good design is more or less wasted in iOS. Anand did a piece about Cyclone architecture
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7910/apples-cyclone-...

Comparing just the number of cores and clocks is laughable. You can levy a lot of legit criticism on Apple but saying that it's CPU is inferior to competitors is ignorant.

ps. I don't use apple products but I give credit where credit is due and Apple A7 is an impressive piece of silicon. If it was also used in Android devices I would prefer it instead of Qualcomn's Krait not to mention Samsung's Exynos.


Not at all surprising.
By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 8:17:48 AM , Rating: 1
I guess we know what the answer to the question "Who would even want a phone with a screen larger than 3.5 inches?" We all know that Apple has been dragging its feet on getting better screens, both larger and higher res, and we all know its coming this year based on the supply chain, so there would have to have been internal discussions on it and a process that led to the decision. Years late if you ask me, but at least its coming.




RE: Not at all surprising.
By lightfoot on 4/8/2014 9:50:10 AM , Rating: 2
When you compare the iPhone to others on the market, you can get a bigger screen, a more open ecosystem, just as many apps all for half the price. Why wouldn't you switch to Android?

Apple simply cannot compete. Correction - Apple simply will not compete.


RE: Not at all surprising.
By retrospooty on 4/8/2014 10:08:07 AM , Rating: 2
"When you compare the iPhone to others on the market, you can get a bigger screen, a more open ecosystem, just as many apps all for half the price. Why wouldn't you switch to Android?"

Early versions of Android had turned alot of people off. Many switched early in the Android 2.x or earlier days and got a bad taste for it and wen back to IOS, or on to WP and dont even remotely grasp that Android 2.x and 4+ are worlds apart. A totally different ballgame.


By GotThumbs on 4/8/2014 4:12:52 PM , Rating: 4
Apples IPhone was NOT the first smartphone.

It' seems Apple execs think like our current president. If you say it enough times, people will start overlooking the truth/reality and take your words as fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

Example: Palm Treo came out in 2001, where the first Iphone was in 2007.

"The Palm Treo had wireless web browsing, email, calendar, a contact organizer and mobile third-party applications that could be downloaded or synced with a computer"

This is just another reason why you should never believe everything that comes out of peoples mouths, because they are hoping you're too lazy to fact-check their lies.




Product Line
By Flunk on 4/8/2014 11:37:23 AM , Rating: 2
They need a more diverse product line. Copying their Mac line would be a good idea, with 4 devices.

iPhone Pro (5" and 4") at about what they're currently charging with 32GB or 64GB of storage and aluminum cases.

iPhone (5" and 4") with last-gen processors, polycarbonate cases (white and black only please) with 8GB or 16GB of memory. Priced around $400 off contract and < $100 on contract.

It creates two distinct product lines and price points. Not only that the storage restriction forces nearly anyone who would have bought an iPhone before to buy the high-end one.




RE: Product Line
By tonyswash on 4/8/2014 12:47:41 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
They need a more diverse product line. Copying their Mac line would be a good idea, with 4 devices.


Lots of rumours about what's coming later this year with the iPhone 6 (series?). This image shows the most strongly rumoured product configuration, the 5s is on the left and the iPad Mini is on the right, the two centre phones are the rumoured two new iPhone 6. Of course these are just rumours but if true it would be a neat product line, and Apple sure does love neat product lines.

http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2014/04/iphon...

I think supply chain constraints might play a factor especially if Apple makes the transition to sapphire displays.


Shocking revelations!
By tonyswash on 4/8/2014 12:29:49 PM , Rating: 1
I am stunned by what the trial discovery process has revealed.

So far we have discovered

- that Apple agonises long and hard over adding product variations to it's ultra simplified product lines

and

- that Samsung is obsessed with trying to copy Apple's products.

Who could have guessed that?




RE: Shocking revelations!
By Cheesew1z69 on 4/8/2014 2:02:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So far we have discovered
That Apple is scared.


File under D for Durrrrr
By Gunbuster on 4/8/2014 10:56:46 AM , Rating: 2
"off contract pricing for the smartphone still remains relatively high."

You think? $549 for an off contract 5C 16GB.

The Lumia 52X called. They retail for $60 and have been under $30 with deals and price matches.




hope
By p05esto on 4/8/2014 11:51:35 AM , Rating: 2
We can only hope that Apple will go back to 1997, but this time actually die. They are responsible for the dumbed down PC, overpriced everything, DRM crappy iTunes that is so counter-intuitive it hurts and probably responsible for world hunger too.




have been saying this for years
By w8gaming on 4/8/2014 12:10:33 PM , Rating: 2
Have seen this coming since 2 years ago. Unfortunately lots of Apple fans expressed Apple DID NOT need a phone with larger screen. I supposed Apple management had listened and was afraid to offend their fans. Look what this has costed them. Apple could have been in a stronger position.




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