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The only thing in the black right now for Microsoft's EDD is the Xbox 360 Elite
Xbox 360 in the black by 2008 -- and not just the Elite console

The Xbox 360 is the leader of the home console market at the moment. Its year head-start has given it the largest user base along with the greatest number of quality titles. Despite all that, however, the Xbox 360 is a financial loser for Microsoft, which lost $315 million USD from its Entertainment end Devices Division in the third fiscal quarter.

Microsoft is in the gaming business for the long-haul. The company’s deep pockets allow it to sit in the trenches, weathering the storm until the tides turn – and according to Robbie Back, president of Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices Division, those days may be coming in 2008.

“It's a business that will be profitable next year—we'll make money next year and that will be the first time, which is pretty exciting,” said Bach in an eWeek interview. “And then the next two or three years are the place where you need to make tracks, and the next two or three years are where you have to make money.”

Bach details that the Xbox hardware itself is something that may never end up being profitable, though accessories such as controllers and other peripherals usually do bring in some money. A major source of revenue is from its own games divisions and royalties from other publishers. The last piece to the Xbox profit model is the Live service, which is now six million subscribers strong.

“The pieces are in place to drive the proverbial billion dollars. Specific date—oh, that's going to depend on what happens in pricing, which partly we control, partly we don't,” Bach explained when asked about turning a profit. “You know what happens in component costs—mostly we have pretty good influence over that, but there are places where we don't. Pricing on memory goes up and down seemingly like a yo-yo, so [we have to manage] through that.”

“Right now we're doing a pretty good job. We're humming pretty well in the business,” added Bach. “Our costs are a little higher than we'd like, [but] we're pushing those down; there are good initiatives underway to drive that.”



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???
By achintya on 5/7/2007 9:19:19 AM , Rating: 1
I thought that MS was already making a profit on every Xbox360 sold.




RE: ???
By FITCamaro on 5/7/2007 9:23:02 AM , Rating: 1
I think you're thinking about Nintendo. While its no where close to what Sony is loosing on each PS3, Microsoft still looses some money on each 360.


RE: ???
By Lonyo on 5/7/2007 10:16:05 AM , Rating: 2
I think some random company said MS was already making profit on each Xbox 360 sold, the same one saying that Sony loses $240 or so on each PS3.
But IMO those numbers are complete crap, since they had the Xbox 360's DVD drive priced HIGHER than an OEM drive from Newegg for a PC. I don't think MS would pay more than a regular person for a DVD drive.

So it has been claimed MS are making a profit on each Xbox 360, but I wouldn't trust what's been said.


RE: ???
By masteraleph on 5/7/2007 10:50:15 AM , Rating: 2
There was a company saying that, however, they took into account only the cost of components. Amazingly enough, each Xbox360 also has things like packaging, shipping, and the fact that MS doesn't receive the retail price to deal with in not making a profit.


RE: ???
By Oregonian2 on 5/7/2007 3:37:39 PM , Rating: 1
Might also be an import duty from wherever it's manufactured (as well as shipping from there, broker's fees, warehousing, shipping to retailer's warehouses, insurance, coverage of damaged or missing units, etc).


RE: ???
By Plasmoid on 5/8/2007 4:11:55 PM , Rating: 2
Dont forget all those xbox that had to be replaced or repaired... their bleeding money on those. Not to mention the shipping on them.


RE: ???
By Mitch101 on 5/7/2007 10:20:31 AM , Rating: 2
Im under the same impression that they do make a small profit on each X-Box 360 and when they go to 65nm will either drop the price or just make more money if demand is still decent.

I think if they plan on doing a price drop is will be before X-mas 2007 after I hear ATI recently tapped out the 65nm design for the chips recently. From what I understand ATI gets a lump sum for that and maybe a small coin for each chip as Microsoft owns the chips in the end. TSMC I believe makes the chips for Microsoft.

In all Im surprised they didnt mention making money from movies but maybe thats included with Live?


RE: ???
By Murst on 5/7/2007 10:54:07 AM , Rating: 3
You're both right and wrong...

It has been reported that MS can make the units for less than the cost of the 360. So, for example, MS can make the 360 premium for less than 400 USD. However, that still doesn't mean it makes a profit on the system, as shipping costs, advertising, etc. add up to cause a net loss.


RE: ???
By Murst on 5/7/2007 10:55:04 AM , Rating: 2
Hmm... someone else beat me to it by 4 minutes :)


RE: ???
By TheDoc9 on 5/7/07, Rating: -1
RE: ???
By ViperROhb34 on 5/7/2007 12:29:02 PM , Rating: 2
The article refers to how it balances out.. they ( MS ) lost money intially.. and now they are making money on each console - but the current profits don't balance out the those initial massive negatives in just a few weeks..

If PS3 were to start making a profit of 80 dollars on each PS3 today - they still need yrs to make back all the money they've lost so far.


RE: ???
By Samus on 5/7/2007 2:28:02 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft does MAKE money for EACH console sold. The hardware has been profitable since last fall.

I think the article is speaking for the WHOLE XBOX DIVISION. They're still not making money on developement and support (warranty claims are killing them I hear)


RE: ???
By psychobriggsy on 5/7/2007 8:10:47 PM , Rating: 2
Did you read the article you are replying to?

"Bach details that the Xbox hardware itself is something that may never end up being profitable"

i.e., the 360 hardware is not profitable NOW, never mind 6-10 months ago when iSupply made the $323 hardware cost estimates.


RE: ???
By S3anister on 5/7/2007 5:56:57 PM , Rating: 2
it's a lie. there are soo many more things that go on behind the corporation that what most consumers and (sorry) DT readers know.


Do they pass it on?
By TheDrD on 5/7/2007 9:16:55 AM , Rating: 2
Will they pass it on to the consumers?




RE: Do they pass it on?
By dice1111 on 5/7/2007 9:54:46 AM , Rating: 2
I doubt they will until after they get their ROI. After that, it would seem most likely.


RE: Do they pass it on?
By encryptkeeper on 5/7/2007 10:24:01 AM , Rating: 2
Pass the savings to the customer? Good god man, how did you perfectly smack your head as to get enough brain damage to conjure that insane idea but still know how to use your fingers to type??? This is MICROSOFT we're talking about here! After SIX years, Windows XP is the SAME price as it was at it's introduction!

OK so yeah, OS's are different from consoles, but don't expect a price drop anytime soon. The only time they would do one is if the red headed stepchild of consoles (of course I'm talking about the PS3) comes down BELOW the 360's current price. Otherwise, don't even fool yourself about the price budging a cent.


RE: Do they pass it on?
By Nekrik on 5/7/2007 6:00:46 PM , Rating: 3
Your statement is true, but it has nothing to do with it being Microsoft, it's because it is a business.


RE: Do they pass it on?
By mars777 on 5/7/07, Rating: 0
RE: Do they pass it on?
By redbone75 on 5/8/2007 7:12:17 PM , Rating: 3
I can tell your major wasn't economics:)


RE: Do they pass it on?
By Oregonian2 on 5/7/2007 3:39:17 PM , Rating: 1
Pass the profits on to the customers? How about if they send a bill out to customers to cover the losses they're taking now, to be fair?


RE: Do they pass it on?
By Tsuwamono on 5/7/2007 11:44:46 PM , Rating: 1
considering they are already ripping us off on the costs of OSes they certainly owe us enough already


RE: Do they pass it on?
By darkpaw on 5/8/2007 8:59:07 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously, what rip off?

I don't see anything wrong with paying $150 or less on a piece of software that I will use everyday for the next five years or so. I'm happy if I get 40 hours out of a $50 game.

Sure, people who are dumb enough to pay for ultimate vista are getting ripped off, but thats kinda their fault for paying for mostly useless add-ons.


RE: Do they pass it on?
By bkm32 on 5/8/2007 9:32:13 AM , Rating: 3
BTW, your (correct) thinking still applies to the $400 version VISTA. I remember paying $100 for Phantasy Star 4, Virtua Racing (Genesis and brand new). I still play PS4 but not VR.

Anyway, the real point I'd like to make is "what about the oil companies ripping off customers world wide?"

Videogame console prices and X360 profitability are hardly a drop in the bucket compared to the profits "big oil" is making. Exxon posted a $39.5B profit for FY 2006. That's 3X the revenue of the Videogame Industry (VGI) by only one oil company. Do they pass it on? Heck no. At least the VGI eventually does pass on savings to it's consumer base.

Stop complaining about the price of the PS3 or the X360 Elite. Because at the end of the day, the VGI takes care of the consumer base that takes care of it. That gift is priceless and that's why we buy them at whatever price they are. Bottomline.


RE: Do they pass it on?
By Oregonian2 on 5/8/2007 1:25:30 PM , Rating: 1
Haven't checked lately, but the last time I looked a year or two ago the oil company profits were historically a VERY small percentage of their total revenue. Profits were just huge because their gross revenue is huge (it's a LARGE worldwide business). Microsoft's overall profits as a percentage of revenue is probably a lot higher. Your local hair salon probably has a lot higher profit as a percentage of revenue too -- it's just that their customer base is a lot smaller than Exxon's and you don't use it quite as often.


RE: Do they pass it on?
By bkm32 on 5/9/2007 4:46:57 PM , Rating: 2
Regardless of their larger world revenues, don't expect "big oil" to pass on any savings to the consumer. In fact, expect them to keep bending us over until all the oil runs out or relatively cheaper alternative comes.

Moreover, it would be great if they actually used these profits to fund meaningful research into alternative fuel sources. If they're first to market with an alternative, then they stand to make a considerable amount of cash on it.

A likely scenario will be that oil prices continue to rise until they are on par with electric, flywheel, and fuel cell alternatives (throw solar in their for good measure). This will probably happen right before WWIII and all progress made on alternatives will be wiped out as umanity self-destructs and blows itself back to the 18th century.


They'll get my money after the die shrink
By PAPutzback on 5/7/2007 9:25:27 AM , Rating: 2
I could care less about the HDD size or color I just want a quiet box that connects via HDMI.

60 bucks a year for Live times how many subscribers and they aren't in the black yet. They must have taken a serious loss on the hardware. Perhaps that is why they are charging for the GOW maps nows.




By masteraleph on 5/7/2007 10:51:49 AM , Rating: 2
Nah, they're only charging for the GoW maps until September, when they'll be free. This is "we know that there are people who are willing to pay for them, and we're a for-profit company, so we'll use them to make a profit."


RE: They'll get my money after the die shrink
By Bonrock on 5/7/2007 12:52:49 PM , Rating: 2
"60 bucks a year for Live times how many subscribers and they aren't in the black yet."

Well, I for one certainly won't be paying $60 per year for Xbox Live Gold--you can get it for $40 on Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...


RE: They'll get my money after the die shrink
By Pirks on 5/7/2007 3:40:27 PM , Rating: 1
That's $45 with shipping, just $5 less than MS price. Hardly a bargain.


RE: They'll get my money after the die shrink
By Seymourbbuts on 5/7/2007 4:05:17 PM , Rating: 2
That's actually $15 and well worth considering that is 5 years for the price of 4. Also you could use that $15 you're saving to purchase things like game add-ons and what not. Hell, even if it was only $5, and that is a song pack for Guitar Hero right there.


By jadedeath on 5/7/2007 5:01:24 PM , Rating: 2
Not only that 2 bucks a song for Guitar Hero 1 songs?

Thanks, but no thanks.

Logan


Xbox 360 isn't a leader of console market
By defter on 5/7/2007 9:59:50 AM , Rating: 1
Even if we forgot about handheld consoles and look only at the US market where Xbox 360 is strongest, PS2 and Wii outsell Xbox 360. Worldwide, there is no match.

"Reuters have reported NPD’s March 2007 sales figures, and when you see them, they’re quite eye opening.

508k - Nintendo DS
280k - PlayStation 2
259k - Nintendo Wii
199k - Xbox 360
180k - PlayStation Portable
148k - Game Boy Advance
130k - PlayStation 3
22k - GameCube"
http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/11529/532/




RE: Xbox 360 isn't a leader of console market
By Murst on 5/7/2007 10:58:44 AM , Rating: 2
It all depends on what numbers you're looking at.

If you look at the new generation of non-handheld consoles (so, basically a Wii, 360, and PS3), the xbox 360 has the largest number of units sold worldwide. In that view, they are the leader.


By cochy on 5/7/2007 3:13:47 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, however the article should have been worded appropriately. ie. "Leader in the next-gen console segment."


RE: Xbox 360 isn't a leader of console market
By jadedeath on 5/7/2007 4:57:02 PM , Rating: 2
For the moment, if Wii sales continue at even 75% the numbers they're getting now they'll catch up and probably surpass the 360 by the end of this year if not 2008.

Logan


By bunnyfubbles on 5/7/2007 6:27:29 PM , Rating: 2
The Wii is almost at 7 million, 360 is just over 10, looks like to me that the Wii is most likely going to surpass the 360 over summer/fall and then decisively pull away from the pack during the winter holiday season.


<no subject>
By Scabies on 5/7/2007 10:41:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Xbox 360 is the leader of the home console market at the moment. Its year head-start has given it the largest user base along with the greatest number of quality titles .

a somewhat objective assessment, I would say. Lets keep it clean folks.




RE: <no subject>
By Natfly on 5/7/2007 1:12:56 PM , Rating: 2
I think they mean games made for that console (ie. Excluding ps2 titles which are playable on the new system and the rehashed games you can download for the Wii.)


RE: <no subject>
By johnsonx on 5/7/2007 5:46:35 PM , Rating: 2
The word you're looking for is 'subjective', not 'objective'.


RE: <no subject>
By Scabies on 5/8/2007 12:46:09 PM , Rating: 2
curses, no *edit* function
Yes, subjective, as in reflecting DailyTech's opinion as opposed to some stated (or cited) fact. I just got a 360, and I agree that the games that I have played thus far have beaten out my Wii titles and my PS3 titles (I own all,) but that is still a pretty bold statement to make. Not everyone (read: fanboys / anti-MS-boys) would agree though.


Read twice, then post
By klstay on 5/7/2007 8:41:04 AM , Rating: 2
Marcus,

Grammar checker, dude.




RE: Read twice, then post
By klstay on 5/7/2007 8:46:24 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, that was quick... ;-)


Its all about QC
By CupCak3 on 5/7/2007 11:50:48 AM , Rating: 3
Well maybe if MS could get a handle on their QC, they wouldn't be paying out of the butt right now to fix 360's two.. three... four times... and get get out of the red

In its last quarterly reqort, MS actually blamed the high number of warranty claims for the return numbers it posted.




Makes me wonder..
By ViperROhb34 on 5/7/2007 12:26:08 PM , Rating: 3
With Sony PS3 sales being slower then expected..
Will PS3 actually turn over a profit ?
AND when ? 2012 ?

:O




How long to make up for losses?
By BladeVenom on 5/7/2007 3:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
So how long do they estimate it will take them to make back the over 5 billion dollars they've already lost in the console market?




By Oregonian2 on 5/7/2007 3:43:46 PM , Rating: 1
Plus at least the amount they would have earned "guaranteed" with that money had that money been invested in nice safe government bonds instead risking it in the console business.


By crystal clear on 5/8/2007 1:46:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
“Our costs are a little higher than we'd like, [but] we're pushing those down; there are good initiatives underway to drive that.”


Sony Shiroishi Semiconductor, a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony, on April 23 announced an expansion of its monthly production capacity of blue-violet laser diodes, a key component of HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc (BD) PUHs, to 1.7 million diodes as well as the beginning of volume production of 240mW (milliwatts) blue-violet laser diodes in November of 2007. This will greatly increase the supply of blue-laser PUHs at lower prices, the sources indicated, noting the reduction of costs could reach US$100.

Besides a potential drop in the production cost of the PS3, the production cost of the Xbox 360 (20GB hard drive version) has dropped to US$323.30 based on estimates by research firm iSuppli in the fourth quarter of 2006.

Production cost of PS3 could be cut by US$100

http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/NewsSearch.asp?D...




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