backtop


Print 116 comment(s) - last by Mach Omega.. on Jul 24 at 12:31 AM

Red Ring of Death surges Xbox division losses

Microsoft just released its Q4 and fiscal year financial results, which showed the company’s growth at a 15 percent increase over last year. Overall, things were good at Microsoft, though the company’s Entertainment and Devices Division (EDD) weren’t one of the company’s financial stars.

The EDD once again posted losses, but this year a stunning $1.89 billion – about 47 percent more than the previous period’s $1.28 billion loss from last year.

For Q4, operating losses increased 183 percent to $1.2 billion, mostly due to Microsoft’s over $1 billion charge for its new three-year warranty against the Red Ring of Death.

Microsoft attributes the majority of its operating loss to the change in Xbox 360 warranty policy and slowing sales, though the loss was "partially offset by decreased Xbox 360 console manufacturing costs." Also helping to pick up the slack were sales of Zune, video games and Xbox 360 accessories.

Overall revenue was down during Q4 at $1.16 billion, but fiscal year revenue was up 28 percent to $6.08 billion.

Despite this rather hefty shortfall, Microsoft expects great things for the upcoming year. In May, Robbie Bach, president of the EDD, said that the division would be profitable by 2008. “It's a business that will be profitable next year—we'll make money next year and that will be the first time, which is pretty exciting,” said Bach. “And then the next two or three years are the place where you need to make tracks, and the next two or three years are where you have to make money.”



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Slowing sales
By phatboye on 7/20/2007 8:54:22 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Microsoft attributes the majority of its operating loss to the change in Xbox 360 warranty policy and slowing sales


MS should expect sales to continue to slow until they actually fix the RRoD problem and not just extend the warranty, and lower the cost of entry for the console.




RE: Slowing sales
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 8:57:31 AM , Rating: 2
The new 65nm cores should be out by Christmas, should fix any heat problems. Just in time for the fall/winter video game rush.. mmm halo3, gta4, etc etc etc...

Things do look good on the horizon with games like that ;)


RE: Slowing sales
By Highbuzz on 7/20/2007 9:38:02 AM , Rating: 2
I hope so. I'm looking to get a 360 soon and don't want to have to deal with this. Even if the warranty covers the 360, it's such a hassle to send it in.


RE: Slowing sales
By qrhetoric on 7/20/2007 11:49:43 AM , Rating: 3
Doesn't matter if they have 65nm processors if no one buys them :)


RE: Slowing sales
By Rampage on 7/20/2007 12:03:35 PM , Rating: 2
Thats what I'm waiting for.

Halo 3 + the Falcon 360 Elite.
I think you'll see a whole lot of people purchasing at that time with me.


RE: Slowing sales
By EndPCNoise on 7/20/07, Rating: 0
RE: Slowing sales
By corduroygt on 7/20/2007 9:35:43 PM , Rating: 2
compare it to an older xbox and it should be noticably quieter.


RE: Slowing sales
By EndPCNoise on 7/21/2007 12:51:52 AM , Rating: 3
compare it to an older xbox and it should be noticably quieter.

I see 3 problems here...

1) You don't know this to be true.

2) It is not a practical solution for most.

3) Say you just happen to have access to a working RRoD 360. If your new Elite is not more quiet, what then? Are you going to take your new Elite back to the store? Are you going to continue exchanging your Elite until you find one that is more quiet?
Come on...


RE: Slowing sales
By 9nails on 7/21/2007 10:34:18 AM , Rating: 2
If you have an RRoD 360, get it repaired! Microsoft said that they would cover the bill. But it might take some time before they get all of them sent in...

But to your question, just look at the SKU numbers. The Falcon Xbox 360's will carry a different number than today's products. (Wait until they ship Falcon Elite's before you ask me what that number will be!)


RE: Slowing sales
By EndPCNoise on 7/21/2007 1:17:07 PM , Rating: 1
just look at the SKU numbers. The Falcon Xbox 360's will carry a different number than today's products.

From what I have read, Microsoft has no plans for a new SKU.


RE: Slowing sales
By TSS on 7/21/2007 10:23:37 AM , Rating: 2
if it's quieter i'd be more worried then when its louder.

even with cooler components, if you decrease formfactor (and thus cooling efficiency) or you cut the airflow to make it quieter yet give the same amount of cooling, it makes not a bit of difference.

i'd not expect something that runs as hot as a high end PC (which it is really) in that small a case, to become quieter. unless its DoA ;)


RE: Slowing sales
By JimFear on 7/22/2007 10:02:53 AM , Rating: 2
Look at the manufaccturing date, I've read that Falcon has apparently been in development since the beginning of the year with them finally going into production this month (July), so all with a manufacturing date of july 2007 and later will be falcon. The market was however flooded with old consoles though, you'll need to wait till later on in the year before Falcon works its way into shops.

You can view the manufacturing date by looking in that small flap on the box which shows you the serial number.


RE: Slowing sales
By Samus on 7/23/2007 3:36:07 AM , Rating: 2
I will. I've been waiting for a black 360 with HDMI (finally out) but still want something that uses less power. 65nm should shrink the power supply by 40-watts or so.


RE: Slowing sales
By SiliconAddict on 7/21/2007 1:33:19 AM , Rating: 2
A black eye doesn't heal overnight.
Nor does word of mouth of the RRoD. MS is going to have to do battle in the PR ring if they want to come out of this holiday shopping season successfully. That being said they have a metric shit ton of, what looks to be good, games coming up so if they can get things straightened out....Hell I might even buy a 360. But first they have to prove that the RRoD has been solved. Warranty smorranty. I don't need my console to be in the shop for repairs multiple times.
That and I wouldn't mind a price drop. $299 for a 60GB please?


RE: Slowing sales
By Calin on 7/23/2007 2:53:24 AM , Rating: 3
Transition to a smaller architecture is not always a solution to heat problems - see Northwood to Prescott.
But indeed, things look good for Microsoft


RE: Slowing sales
By SmokeRngs on 7/23/2007 1:29:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Transition to a smaller architecture is not always a solution to heat problems - see Northwood to Prescott.


There is a difference in the Northwood to Prescott change and the change for the Xbox360. Northwood to Prescott wasn't just a die shrink; there were some changes to the actual architecture such as a lengthening of the pipeline. This was one of the main reasons Prescott ran hotter.

In the case of the Xbox360, it's mostly a die shrink. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some changes to the core (rearrangements) during the shrink for power and heat reasons but no chance for an actual architecture change. Since this is the case, it should do nothing more than lower the power required which lowers the heat. Core changes alone can bring this about but the inclusion of the die shrink should make an even bigger difference.

I'm just saying you cannot directly compare the two as they are completely different situations.


RE: Slowing sales
By dblagent on 7/20/2007 9:32:29 AM , Rating: 2
I agree, I am personally wanting to get one but am not going to purchase until the new models come out. If they are smart they will get those out as fast as possible at this point because everyone is aware of the issue with the current models. I already own games and accessories, but not the console as I want the newer model.

On a side note, I also saw a PS3 this week that had gotten so hot that it had melted the HDMI cable used to connect to the television. Had to use pliers to remove it and eventually it was OK, PS3 still worked though.


RE: Slowing sales
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 9:37:41 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
On a side note, I also saw a PS3 this week that had gotten so hot that it had melted the HDMI cable used to connect to the television. Had to use pliers to remove it and eventually it was OK, PS3 still worked though.


wow thats crazy, of all the things to overheat, i never would have guessed an hdmi cable would do such a thing. Was it a cheap piece of shit? or was the a quality cable that just got fried for no reason. For all the good press the ps3 has got for not having any problems, it would be hilarious if it broke peoples 50 dollar hdmi cables.


RE: Slowing sales
By mdogs444 on 7/20/2007 10:04:52 AM , Rating: 3
Are you referring to the metal portion of the HDMI cable melting, and thus soldering itself to the connector? Or are you referring to the cable insualation?

I find hard to believe that either one would melt due to "heat", but more less due to a shorted component. The temperature in which the metal would melt would be awful high, and much higher than the PS3 unit would get, while still being able to work at a later point in time. I have seen cable insulation melt due to reversed current of sorts, like touching two hot leads at once.

On my side note, i really hope no one paid $50 for an HDMI cable....but if they did, they deserve the bad luck for not researching the price and throwing $45 away! lol jk.


RE: Slowing sales
By GreenyMP on 7/20/2007 10:44:03 AM , Rating: 2
mdogs444 is right. Please don't spend $50 on your HDMI cables. I know that your local bricks and mortar retailers all want to sell you a "premium" cable for $80 - $130. But you can buy them for less than five dollars online.

I am not saying that the $130 cable is not better. But just don't come complaining to the forum about how your game system set you back over $700 because you had to buy the "premium" cable.


RE: Slowing sales
By thejez on 7/20/2007 11:15:46 AM , Rating: 2
the $130 cable isnt better... thats been proven time and time again... its simply putting money where you poop.


RE: Slowing sales
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 11:23:58 AM , Rating: 1
Ever stop to think maybe he was using 5$ cables and thats why it occurred. For an hdmi cable to be 5$ they have to cut corners somewhere ;)


RE: Slowing sales
By alifbaa on 7/20/2007 11:47:52 AM , Rating: 4
I'm sure you're right. The 20,000% markup that monster puts on its cables gives you markedly better construction. After all, they're so advanced that even the laws of physics can't explain why they're better!


RE: Slowing sales
By mdogs444 on 7/20/2007 12:05:21 PM , Rating: 2
And who says just paying for the name stamped on the package isn't worth it? cough cough. lol


RE: Slowing sales
By Rampage on 7/20/2007 12:07:38 PM , Rating: 2
While not worth the "20,000%" markup, they are likely better physically constructed than a $5 cable.
A Big Mac value meal is $5.
Am I the only one who thinks its probably OK to spend at least more than a McDonalds value meal price on your HDMI cable?


RE: Slowing sales
By mdogs444 on 7/20/2007 12:14:47 PM , Rating: 2
I have bought the cheap HDMI cables from Monoprice.com and have been extremely happy with them. I've used them for my DVD player & my HDTV Cable box. There is something to be said for quality construction, no doubt. But to the naked eye, id put my $5 monoprice cables up against whatever Best Buy sells, and the typical person watching the movie or tv wouldn't know the difference.

I'm not an audiophile or videophile though, so the slightest of interferance, if any, wouldnt matter much to me becuase id never know.


RE: Slowing sales
By mdogs444 on 7/20/2007 12:14:50 PM , Rating: 2
I have bought the cheap HDMI cables from Monoprice.com and have been extremely happy with them. I've used them for my DVD player & my HDTV Cable box. There is something to be said for quality construction, no doubt. But to the naked eye, id put my $5 monoprice cables up against whatever Best Buy sells, and the typical person watching the movie or tv wouldn't know the difference.

I'm not an audiophile or videophile though, so the slightest of interferance, if any, wouldnt matter much to me becuase id never know.


RE: Slowing sales
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 12:24:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not an audiophile or videophile though, so the slightest of interferance, if any, wouldnt matter much to me becuase id never know.


being a digital connection i dont think interference is an issue, one digital connection will not be noticably better than another to anyones eyes.

I just wanted pointing out that shotty construction could end up giving you unexplained problems such as a shortcircuit, maybe even causing your ps3 to melt the cable ;) which could obviously put your device at risk.

I have nothing that requires hdmi so i just gave a standard price (i did not know they could be had for that cheap). i have seen for brand name products which unfortunately many suckers still buy.


RE: Slowing sales
By alifbaa on 7/20/2007 4:03:26 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, I mistyped. It's not a 20,000% markup from $5 to $100. It's a mere 2,000%.

As for the quality of cable manufacturing, go to www.bluejeanscable.com. They will teach you all about what makes a cable "good" and what makes a cable "expensive." They sell "good" HDMI cables. You can get a 6 foot HDMI for $21.50, and it will be constructed to last a lifetime and will give the best quality results possible from what is, in reality, nothing more than a series of wires. You can find $5 HDMIs on ebay, and they're probably just as well made. Personally, I've always just used the HDMI cables that have come with my components. I'm sure they were built as cheaply as possible.

For everything except HDMI and subwoofer cable, I make my own cables from lamp wire of an appropriate gauge and connectors bought off EBay. Trust me, you will never be able to tell the difference between "good" cables bought for $20/foot and the "crap" that I put together for 25 cents/foot.

The reason for this unperceived difference is simple... the difference doesn't exist. Not one single claim ever made by Monster has ever been substantiated even by Monster themselves. If you don't believe me, head on over to audioholics.com and check out their past articles on cable. They got yelled at by one of the "high end" companies and they posted the letters back and forth asking for a sample to test empirically in response.

Save your money on cable and put it into something that will actually make a difference -- better equipment.


RE: Slowing sales
By FITCamaro on 7/20/2007 12:07:44 PM , Rating: 2
While its true that an extremely budget cable may not be as good as a more expensive one, even just the market up from a store like Best Buy for Monster Cable is insane (30-50%).

But generally you can get quality HDMI cables online with gold connectors, quality insulation and EMI shielding, and quality cable for $15-20 for a 10' long one. Far cheaper than the $100 "PS3" HDMI cable Best Buy sells. Those are sold to idiots who are too dumb to realize theres no difference in the cable and believe the salesman who tells them its superior. Any salesman who sells one of those probably gets a pat on the back from the sales manager for attaching that extremely high profit item to the sale.


RE: Slowing sales
By dblagent on 7/20/2007 2:12:33 PM , Rating: 2
It was just the end of the cable that connected to the PS3 that melted. It was in an entertainment center that was mostly closed but it was also the only thing on in the cabinet. It apparently got hot enough to melt the cable, it was deformed and they tried to remove the cable it tore the end off of it. The pliers were used to remove the remaining piece from the PS3 itself. It was pretty stuck on the port, but in the end it came loose. The PS3 was fine and the port still worked so problem there. I do not know the brand of cable it was, but the metal itself was melted looking and the cable boot was also melted, the rest of the cable looked fine. TV end was OK too. Our thought was that the exhaust from the PS3 caused it in the slightly closed in space.

No big deal, but it was amusing/interesting to see. They will not keep the entertainment center door closed anymore I bet!


RE: Slowing sales
By psychobriggsy on 7/20/2007 7:22:27 PM , Rating: 2
Quite clearly something shorted within the cable.

Or the cable was made of marshmallow.

If the cabinet had got to the 200+ degrees Celsius that would have melted the cable, they would have had more problems than just the cable. Seriously.


RE: Slowing sales
By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 5:56:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I also saw a PS3 this week that had gotten so hot that it had melted the HDMI cable used to connect to the television. Had to use pliers to remove it and eventually it was OK, PS3 still worked though.


I got this quote checked by a techincally qualified PS3 technician-

He did his test using all type of cheap/low quality cables he pushed the PS3 to its maximum limits-nothing !
This in addition to other tests that he conducted.

His response-Utter nonsense he is just faking a claim thats all ! plain trash !


Catch words-that had gotten so hot that it had melted the HDMI cable & (after that)-PS3 still worked though.

The techincian says -take an imaginary case:

If it(PS3) got so HOT (highly improbable) then PS3 itself should meltdown or stop working !

On a side note-
I use the PS3 for non gaming purposes-experimenting with it.
(cell processosor & graphics)


RE: Slowing sales
By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 6:13:28 AM , Rating: 2
On another side note-

The technician said-you have those extra smart guys that like to open up the PS3 & play around with its components/conections & or do even repairs.

You know those do it your self type guys & those "I know it all" types


RE: Slowing sales
By dblagent on 7/21/2007 10:13:19 AM , Rating: 2
Well, an item to note was that this was on display in a retail store, in an entertainment center for a 70" TV. It was the a full size cabinet that was about 5 feet tall, but the PS3 was near the top. This was not a persons PS3 so nothing was done to the PS3 itself. My bet is either some kind of short in the cable thought it was still working when they tried to move it, hence finding the problem with the cable. The other thought was that in the cabinet the exhaust was getting directly put on the cable causing the damage, though I agree that was have to be really dang hot.

I have only seen two actual broken PS3s, and I do not count the one mentioned above as it was still fine. Both of the ones that were actually bad had bad CD drives, they would not try and eject discs at all. Sure felt like an idiot trying to open one up for the first time to get the disc out! PS3 has done very well in the hardware reliability so far, 360 could learn a lot there.


RE: Slowing sales
By Exodus220 on 7/20/2007 10:20:48 AM , Rating: 4
Interviewer: "So MS, how do you respond to the billion dollar loss your X360 has caused your company?"

MS: "Well, Sony is being outsold 6 to 1 by Nintendo in Japan."

Interviewer: "That is an interesting way of looking at things. What is your plan to recover from that loss?"

MS: "We are just happy that people are using our OS even if they are using a different web browser around the world. Oh, and customers are treated excellently when their X360 turns defective, so it all works out in the end."

Interviewer: "Thanks for your straight answers MS. Hope to hear from you again."


RE: Slowing sales
By FITCamaro on 7/20/07, Rating: -1
RE: Slowing sales
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 12:51:39 PM , Rating: 2
You've successfully answered your own questions, I think he was purely making fun of Microsoft and how evasive they are with their answers.


RE: Slowing sales
By TomZ on 7/20/2007 1:02:53 PM , Rating: 3
Compared to other large companies who are open and forthright, especially when discussing their shortcomings. Here is a list of those other companies:

OK, the list is shorter than I thought. I couldn't think of any.


RE: Slowing sales
By FITCamaro on 7/20/2007 1:03:53 PM , Rating: 2
His first statement yes. But the second contained his own views coming out as a "comment" from Microsoft. If he had left out the part about the web browser, I'd agree with you.


RE: Slowing sales
By Exodus220 on 7/20/2007 7:00:37 PM , Rating: 2
Haha, I am pretty sure you missed my point of the post. Your first sentence shows that you shared the same confusion as I did when reading the MS response to hearing that FF is being used more widely. I thought it was funny how instead of responding to FF becoming stronger or IE losing ground they just said they are happy it is being used on their OS. I know that FF can be used on any OS, it was how MS didn't respond directly to the threat of FF in other countries. That coupled with their responses to the X360 RROD customer service and their lack of success in Japan...it just all makes me laugh.

I have nothing against MS, I just enjoy their responses. Perhaps I should specify if I am trying to be humorous from now on.


Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By psychobriggsy on 7/20/2007 10:46:20 AM , Rating: 2
Ah, that will be one of those "profits" that ignores all the previously sunk costs and losses beforehand because, hey, we can't get that money back.

Tell me when that division makes an overall profit. The day that the division has clawed back all the multiple billions in losses it previously incurred since its inception and makes Microsoft a dollar overall. Place your bets ... 2009? 2010? 2011?

And when the '360 isn't broken - I do want one someday but I don't want the hassle of broken-by-poor-design hardware.




RE: Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By colonelclaw on 7/20/2007 12:26:05 PM , Rating: 2
what's the total loss for the xbox division since it was founded?


RE: Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 1:22:21 PM , Rating: 2
I am pretty sure the original Xbox just broke even, so whatever losses the 360 have incurred.


RE: Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 1:56:28 PM , Rating: 2
I recently read that total losses are in the neighborhood of 1.5 Billion. I'll see if I can find the article.


RE: Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 2:04:33 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8118

They lose 2 billion just this year haha


RE: Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 4:03:30 PM , Rating: 2
Who's side are you on anyway? Just kiddin.

The article I read pretty much stated that, after all the pluses and minues, MS was in the hole in the range of 1.5 billion. That DOESN'T include the warranty issue. Granted, that's a drop in the bucket for MS, but MS has been losing money in almost EVERY aspect of the Xbox, including game development. I think only Live and its Xbox peripherals business are actually bringing in more than they are losing. If MS had been a dedicated console company, it would have LONG been out of business.

I'm not slammin MS or the Xbox. Like I stated before, feel free to post any info that invalidates what I've written. MS is like King Kong's big brother but its playing in Sony's backyard. You have to expect that its gonna take its share of lumps.


RE: Profit? No, just reversing the trend
By mdogs444 on 7/20/2007 4:12:57 PM , Rating: 2
The 1.15B for warranties would not be included, it hasn't been used. people keep saying they are in the hole 1B because of it, and thats not true. What they did was extend the warranty, and then set aside 1B in cash to fix enough units, probably based on the defect rate. There is a very good chance that it will end up costing much less than 1B if not nearly as many units are being sent back now, and it could end up costing more if the defect rate is higher than they believe.

Make sense?


By 9nails on 7/21/2007 10:43:33 AM , Rating: 2
That makes sense. Because with the amount of money that they're talking, they could potentially buy and trade out 3.5 million new 360's instead of repairing the RRoD issue. Which would equate to trading out about 1/3 of the total systems sold to date. Which, this didn't sound like a warranty repair course of action to me!


By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 4:30:39 PM , Rating: 2
I take no sides, i think the way Microsoft does things is just plain dumb, but.. they have the money to do so, and for all we know this is all part of their business plan. Just wanted to put it out there heh ;) I also think sony has dug themselves a hole that they wont be able to get out of, to go from #1 no ifs and or buts to #3 is a big drop, i would be worried a lot more about Sony than Microsoft, i think its even safe to say Sony put all there eggs in one basket with blueray and it could come back to bite them in the ass, more so than microsoft's lousy decisions


Microsoft is going to Abandon Xbox360
By LiptonGreenTea on 7/21/07, Rating: 0
By SiliconAddict on 7/21/2007 1:46:41 AM , Rating: 2
Have you ever heard of the term....in too deep?

If MS just up and quite the game biz they would be sued 6 ways from Sunday (For what? No idea but this being America I can guarantee you it would happen), they would never be trusted in a consumer device market ever again, the Zune would die (It hasn't already?) overnight, and they would have a PR disaster unseen in the history of video games.
To put it bluntly Microsoft would be fracked.


RE: Microsoft is going to Abandon Xbox360
By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 2:36:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yep, MS is going to get out of the console business.


Its like somebody saying "Lipton Tea" going out of the "TEA"business !

Just like the tea has been around & lives with the coffee & the orange juice(I make this comment whilst having my breakfast).

Dont be hurt by my comment-nothing personal !

M.S. has invested too much of time & money in this business that prevents it from getting out of the gaming(console) business.

Yes ! its(Xbox) going through a bad patch but they will come out of it sooner or later.

Xbox is here to stay just like the the tea,thecoffee & the orange juice

Yes preferences/choices will be there & subject to change-I pefer the coffee,you prefer the tea,whilst she prefers the orange juice.

In this business once you get in,there is no getting out.

M.S will learn from its mistakes & bring in the necessary changes(technical & personnel)& its back to business.

My wishful thinking-

How I wish APPLE will jump into the console/gaming business-

"they will call it the iConsole with touch screen instead of buttons" ! ! !


RE: Microsoft is going to Abandon Xbox360
By MeTaedet on 7/21/2007 4:02:02 AM , Rating: 2
"Its like somebody saying "Lipton Tea" going out of the "TEA"business ! "

Ah, so a DailyTecher finally admits, albeit implicitly, that the XBox360 sucks. This is as refreshing to see as Lipton tea isn't to drink.

^_^


By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 6:25:00 AM , Rating: 2
Lipton has been around for a very very long time-ASK the British they will tell you "how long".

I use/have a PS3 by the way !

Its not the product rather the personalities behind these products at M.S. that sucks.


By just4U on 7/22/2007 3:36:33 PM , Rating: 2
I am sure they will get out of the xbox360 eventually or phaze it out but .. I think most of us are positive that MS is looking for ways to get into your living room. A game console is one such route and I don't see them abandoning it.

Just I hope next time with a new line of xbox's they really do take a careful look at the overall design for flaws. It's great to make a killer machine but if it's constantly breaking down then that's not so good.


By colonelclaw on 7/23/2007 8:22:17 AM , Rating: 2
hmm, you may actually be right. whilst it was very commendable of MS to up the warranty on the 360, it was also *highly* unusual for them to own up and admit a mistake like that.
it's just possible that they actually are trying to get out of the business, and this would be a crafty way to do it. by owning up it makes them look honest, but also kills future sales.
after all, who wants to buy a 360 now that even the manufacturer admits theyre broken? the buying public and also the shop retailers will be well aware of these problems, and will steer people away from buying a 360

in a year or 2 time MS can then appease angry shareholders by canning the gaming division entirely. MS may have wanted to own the gaming market, but they want to keep shareholders happy more


Peter Moore
By therealnickdanger on 7/20/2007 8:52:19 AM , Rating: 2
They should make Petey pay for it... :P




RE: Peter Moore
By TomZ on 7/20/2007 9:19:14 AM , Rating: 1
In a way they did, since he no longer works there. :o)


RE: Peter Moore
By Legionosh on 7/20/2007 9:43:51 AM , Rating: 1
I don't see why people people blame Peter Moore for the 360 hardware problems. He didn't design the system and is not responsible for the RROD or any other hardware problems.

He is a PR guy, nothing more.

If heat IS indeed the major culprit in the majority of the RROD failures (I won't include the power supply RROD failures) , then I agree that the die shrink should theoretically fix the problem. That and an improved cooling system could finally fix this once and for all.

I have heard it's everything from the solder failing (it must get pretty hot) to lower quality motherboard components...so we'll have to wait and see what the end result will be.

In regards to the slowing sales, I agree that the price HAS TO COME DOWN (almost 2 years? Come on MS, by default it should have dropped MONTHS ago), and the recent public admittance of the RROD failure issue hasn't helped matters either.

Let's see what they can do to boost sales eh?

My two cents,
Kevin

legionosh@msn.com


RE: Peter Moore
By TomZ on 7/20/2007 9:53:45 AM , Rating: 1
Managers are (at least they should be) held responsible for big mistakes that happen on their watch. In my opinion, that is what happened here.


RE: Peter Moore
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 9:55:20 AM , Rating: 2
Peter Moore is a level 10 telekinesis master, he warped my 360 pcb with a single thought and should not be trusted!!!!!

on a side note, The price can not be lowered until the fabrication process is lowered. 65nm will cost Microsoft 50% less than the current 90nm process costs, so at this point in time, Microsoft can not sell the 360 for any cheaper unless they start losing major amounts of money on every console sold (which they are already doing at this price point).
As i said in an earlier post, the 65nm model should be out by Christmas, which would lead me to believe the price will drop early in q1 2008 after the Christmas rush.
The reason i am saying after Christmas is i very much doubt they will lower the console price with all the killer games coming out, people will buy it regardless of price.


RE: Peter Moore
By masher2 (blog) on 7/20/2007 10:17:48 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
"I don't see why people people blame Peter Moore for the 360 hardware problems. He didn't design the system and is not responsible for the RROD or any other hardware problems.

He is a PR guy, nothing more.
Moore is considerably more than "just a PR guy". As vice president of the entire division, anything that happens on his watch is his responsibility. Anything.

Ultimately, all decisions as to design, component selection, manufacturing, production, and post-production QC are his. On any and all facets of the 360, if he doesn't make a decision directly, he does so indirectly, by delegating responsibility and overseeing those who do.


Finally got my Red Ring of Death
By sapiens74 on 7/20/2007 4:21:11 PM , Rating: 2
After little over a year was playing GoW and it crapped out on me. The MS hotline was a bit cumbersome but they were polite.




RE: Finally got my Red Ring of Death
By EndPCNoise on 7/20/2007 6:55:49 PM , Rating: 2
Song from Queen comes to mind...

...another one bites the dust
...and another one down, another one gone, another one bites the dust hey...

RRoD is gonna get you too...another one bites the dust


By EndPCNoise on 7/20/2007 6:59:38 PM , Rating: 2
Did they play this song while you were waiting on hold with MS?


By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 1:45:08 AM , Rating: 2
Thats a good one from you........

Original indeed !


The B S O D of M.S.
By crystal clear on 7/20/2007 10:01:29 AM , Rating: 2
Well since Moore stepped down as Microsoft Corporate Vice President of Interactive Entertainment.

then its obvious that

Robbie Bach, president of the Entertainment and Devices Division (EDD) SHOULD ALSO STEP DOWN.

Both of them weren’t one of the company’s financial stars.

Robbie Bach shares full responsibility with Moore for the RROD & the Xbox as a whole.

The Red Ring of Death of the Xbox now also applies to Bach just as much it does to Moore.

Its a matter of time-the announcement will come !




RE: The B S O D of M.S.
By Murst on 7/20/2007 10:32:38 AM , Rating: 2
If the 360 turns out making a profit next year, this guy will be promoted, not let go.


RE: The B S O D of M.S.
By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 1:52:45 AM , Rating: 2
IF ? ? ? he stays at M.S. that long !


Wow
By Yongsta on 7/20/2007 6:13:22 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft losing billions in the gaming division, same with Sony. While Nintendo is making a killing. Nintendo might now always sell the most consoles but I think they've always been profitable.




Riliability concerns
By reazahmed on 7/21/2007 6:02:46 PM , Rating: 2
With RRoD X360 is proven unreliable console. I had an eye on price cut to buy one, but now PS3 is a better choice. I pay gladly for the things that I can run smoothly without any overhead of break-down.




By VoiDChalice on 7/22/2007 2:42:55 AM , Rating: 2
...as soon as they released the Xbox 360, then perhaps they could have been earning extra income and the loss for the division would not as been as high.

that, in my opinion, was the only bone-headed thing they have done.

a little dose of reality, even though MS can afford the loses by the Xbox division, any company would rather have every division turn in a profit. it doesn't matter that the XBox 360 is popular or has shipped/sold 11 million consoles, what matters to the Board of Directors is that the division turn in a profit more times than just when Halo launched. ultimately, it would be the Board of Directors who would decide whether they'll continue risking profit or finally let go of the division.

Sony's division, while being in the red also and not in a dominant position since last time, is already breaking even on hardware sales (at least, that is what they say). but, they got a track record on that, the PS2 was already profitable on the second year and they still profit from the PS2...




i hate to say this...
By Gul Westfale on 7/20/07, Rating: -1
RE: i hate to say this...
By alifbaa on 7/20/2007 11:40:20 AM , Rating: 3
I'm not a PS3 or 360 fanboy. I don't own either, and I am waiting on the 360 die shrink, reliability issues and the price changes to settle out before I decide which one I'll buy -- probably early next year. Personally, I'm leaning towards the 360.

Having said that, it seems pretty clear to me that the PS3 is the more powerful system overall. From everything I understand -- when looked at as a system -- the PS3 is far and away a more capable machine. Any single component it is lacking is more than made up for by something else. In spite of all the sh*t it takes around here, it is a very capable and well designed system. Given all the reliability issues of the 360, it is certainly of far better quality than the current 360.

Whether those capabilities make it worth buying at its current price, and whether programmers will ever be willing to make use of that power while sales remain so sluggish are certainly debatable. In the end, though, I don't believe you can point to the PS3 and credibly say it is lacking when compared to the 360. My understanding of the facts says that just isn't the case.


RE: i hate to say this...
By robinthakur on 7/20/2007 11:54:06 AM , Rating: 4
I own all three of the major consoles and trust me when you have all three, the clear winner is the Wii for fun factor and the PS3 overall long term. The XBOX 360's future is limited in my opinion. The difference between the two is quite obvious. The PS3 is heavy (as in its a beast to carry) built like a tank, but its also silent and DOES not get very hot even after like 6 hours play. The interface feels clean and uncluttered and nicely responsive. I've had the PS3 for a while and have had time to get used to it. I was pleasantly surprised after all the negative hype how decent it was to be honest...

The Xbox has nice games at the moment, but it puts out so much heat from both the console and the brick it could legitimately be a heater :) Its also fiendishly noisy. I get yelled at to turn it off whenever its on for more than 10 mins and 'other people' are in the room...Hopefully later revisions will fix this with the 65nm CPU, but for now I just don't use it much, because the fan/drive is so noisy, and overall it just doesn't feel as well designed. Also, I'm annoyed that the HD is not as good as on PS3. There's no HDMI port. There's no wireless either (built in) Online might be better, but to be honest I haven't played this on either. I put off buying a 360 as long as poss while still wanting to get some useful life out of it but I guess I should have waited till they sorted out the problems and dropped the price. Considering how far along the 360 is in its lifespan, I'd expect it to have sold/shipped much more than 11.6 million (or thereabouts) and clearly somebody higher up at MS is thinking similarly judging by recent events. From a business perspective, the whole 360 thing (as well as the PS3 currently) what with the RROD problems must just be a complete nightmare. When will they ever become profitable? Ever?

My 10 cents.

R
T


RE: i hate to say this...
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 12:15:43 PM , Rating: 2
you are aware the original xbox only sold around 25 million.
So 12 million at this point is pretty good especially with the good games on the horizon.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Locutus465 on 7/20/2007 4:48:11 PM , Rating: 2
Is HDMI really that much better than component? I've never had a complaint with any component device, I've always gotten great pictures.


RE: i hate to say this...
By alifbaa on 7/20/2007 6:23:41 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't necessarily any different. Practically speaking, the biggest thing HDMI brings that consumers are interested in is a single connection to pipe in both video and audio.

For example, in the case of a simple 7.1 BD player connected to a HDTV via a receiver, you would have 3 component connections, 14 audio connections, and 1 subwoofer connection going into the receiver followed by the same thing going out. This 36 wire solution would obviously create a mass of spaghetti behind your TV and creating consumer confusion. Throw in a game console, a satellite box, and whatever else you might have, and you can see the mess would otherwise quickly become a major issue.

Quality wise, you won't any difference between the two standards is negligible at most, although 1080p is apparently difficult/impossible to do over component so far as I know. This is apparently why the 360 has never been able to support 1080p as was originally promised.

The downside to HDMI is that it can't be run over long distances, the connector is fragile, and it is too complex to be manufactured by yourself. This effectively makes it impossible to run through walls, although a few companies have created some pretty innovative solutions to this problem.

Ultimately, HDMI was designed as a tool to carry HDCP, which is DRM for raw video. As such, it was not designed with the consumer much in mind. Thus it is a poorly thought out, overly complex, and expensive standard that we all know and love because it succeeded in simplifying our connections.


RE: i hate to say this...
By SiliconAddict on 7/21/2007 1:49:06 AM , Rating: 2
The once nice thing is that with HDMI you just need one cable for video and audio. Less clutter. Personally I welcome it since my HDTV has gone HDless since purchase.


RE: i hate to say this...
By robinthakur on 7/23/2007 6:54:36 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I think a digital video signal would be preferable, as my 360 doesn't display 1080p over component without ridiculous amounts of ghosting. VGA is ok, but then I get massive amounts of tearing in games. Sucks. One cable is much preferable a la PS3.

I think the tide is about to turn here in the console wars. Nintendo can be ruled out here, as they've won already I suspect. The defining console of this generation is the Wii to most people outside of the mouthy purist market. Hands down.

The PS3 will surge in sales when the price comes down. I own all three, and from a design standpoint, functionality, build quality and overall the PS3 outclasses the 360. I bought the PS3 first unlike probably alot of people here, so can appreciate the differences slightly more. The 360 seems poorly made, louder than any other device which I own and uneccessarily fiddly to operate with overly intrusive online (I don't actually play online) Live stuff, games that mostly seem to run at only 30fps and no in built wireless. I can only think that the reason the PS3 is underselling is purely due to the price and the public's perception of it. Some decent games and a price cut will see it start to sell again, I predict. It is too expensive at present.

Has anyone else noticed that the 360 seems to attract a certain demographic? Namely they are male, 10-35, love FPS games and Sports games, probably hetero, obsessed with online multiplayer, mostly American and are fiercely loyal to MS despite the admission that the product has a flaw in design.

Its a bit offputting to potential buyers, but its a bit impressive that the billions spent on the xbox brand have bred such fundamentalism, if not a profit, on its meager sales to date.

R
T


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 12:17:06 PM , Rating: 2
The post above is why some people think most people on forums are just company schills.

quote:
but compared to the overpriced PS3 (witht its geforce7 graphics and lousy 256MB of main RAM)


Ummm, yeah.

When the PS3 came out people slammed it for being "too expensive"... completely ignoring the fact that a comparably configured 360 COSTS MORE and STILL DOES...

The PS3 was slammed for various flaws, especially DVD upscaling. Virtually every complaint has been fixed via firmware. Yet the PS3 is still considered overpriced junk, completely unable to compete with the 360...

The 360 has an unusually high failure rate while the PS3 has an unusually LOW failure rate. By every objective standard, the PS3 is a superior VALUE in comparison to the 360. Yet, somehow, even after issues that would have consigned any other console to the scrapheap, people still defend the 360...

The PS3's graphics are piddly next to the mighty 360... even though its already been shown that PS3 graphics generally match and sometimes even exceed the 360 in quality...

I just don't get it.

It took awhile, but Sony has generally released the machine it promised. If the PS3 had been released in its current form, there would be no doubt that it is the superior system, especially in light of the 360's design flaws. When the PS3 came out half done, Xbox fanboys didn't want to hear anything about the PS3's "potential," it got slammed regularly and vigorously... and based on Sony's marketing hype, rightfully so. But now that the 360 has shown major design flaws, all you here from MS fanboys is "wait for 65nm." C'MON, that isn't hypocritical or anything.

Gaming isn't a religion... or at least shouldn't be. The PS3 is a great product and has shown to be a better investment than the 360. That doesn't mean the 360 sucks but, let's face it, it isn't as great as everyone thought. Right now the 360 has its game library (and that's only if you don't include the PS2's game library) and Live. Not bad, but by no means a home run.

A few last points...

That Sony/HDMI thing looks like a poor attempt at starting a quality issue rumor re: the PS3, IMO. The PS3 has a defect rate hovering around 1%, which is PHENOMENAL for a CE product. Plus, I have mine hooked up through HDMI without issues.

The "profit" MS plans to post next year is indeed misleading. The division will not break even ANYTIME in the near future. It just means the bleeding will have stopped. Everyone looking for the X720 anytime soon shouldn't hold their breath because MS has a massive hole to crawl out of. It's gonna ride the 360 for as long as it can rather than assume an additional hundreds of millions in R&D costs. The only way the 720 comes out is if MS tries to deal Sony a death blow while the PS3 is still trying to gain traction. It could happen but, if it backfires, MS will be forced out of the console race or will bleed money copiously for the foreseeable future.


RE: i hate to say this...
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 1:01:53 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It could happen but, if it backfires, MS will be forced out of the console race or will bleed money copiously for the foreseeable future.


How do you figure? MS is a giant, even with 2 billion dollar loss in the gaming department they still made 6.8 billion this year. they have the time and resources to outlast any other company period. In my eyes the ps3 is already a massive flop, it will never come close to the sales of the ps2, infact it think it is hardpressed to think they will hit the 30-40 million mark in the entire lifespan, thats over a 100% decrease in sales compared to the last console.
Microsoft on the otherhand only sold around 25million Xbox's and they have already reached half that number in a year and a half. So who is really worse off? the company that has a 30% failure rate but will probably exceed the original xbox in sales and the ps3 in sales? or the ps3 whom potentially could loose up too 200% total number of sales compared to the last console??


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 1:41:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So who is really worse off? the company that has a 30% failure rate but will probably exceed the original xbox in sales and the ps3 in sales? or the ps3 whom potentially could loose up too 200% total number of sales compared to the last console??


Who's worse off?

The company that has sunk billions of dollars into R&D and game develop without even a THOUGHT of a profit...

The company that has no business to support a content heavy business endeavor, such as gaming...

The company that has virtually NO experience in consumer-centric design...

The company that has a brilliant history of quality and security issues, that employs many of the best minds in its industry and STILL can not produce a stable or secure product, including its console.

Guess which one that is?

One of the reasons MS hit the market first with an obviously flawed design is so that people like you can quote completely misleading sales figures. Here are a few facts...

The PS3s sales arc is comparable to the 360s at a similar stage and comparable with early sales of the PS2. If you had told anyone that Sony would sell 120+ million PS2s with Microsoft entering the market with the supposedly superior Xbox, you would have been laughed out of the room.

Before the Elite or the design issues, 360 sales had practically ground to a halt.

Even MS can't continue to operate in the red forever. And things aren't getting cheaper either. If MS doesn't start posting profits soon it likely will NEVER BE ABLE TO. Then you have a huge red gouge in your ledger every month. At what point does it become fiscally more responsible to your shareholders to shut down a failing division?

Just because MS can afford to prop up the XBox indefinitely, that doesn't make it good business sense.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 1:51:46 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, downrated for telling the truth. Unbelieveable.


RE: i hate to say this...
By TomZ on 7/20/07, Rating: 0
RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 3:43:34 PM , Rating: 2
If you could have disputed anything I posted, I'm sure you would have. Feel free to post any info that invalidates anything I've written.


RE: i hate to say this...
By mdogs444 on 7/20/2007 3:51:01 PM , Rating: 2
The point is not for him to prove you wrong. When you post things like you did, you should also be posting direct aritcles, links to authentic figures, etc that back up everyone one of your claims.

This is about you posting what is 100% true, not us trying to prove you 100% false.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 4:23:16 PM , Rating: 2
Man, I post for fun and no profit. If I wanted to provide a bibliography for everything I wrote, I'd go back to college. I've already done the research, its not my job to do it for you. If you disagree with anything I've written, its EXACTLY as easy for you to find info to invalidate me than it is for me to find it in the first place. This IS the Web afterall.


RE: i hate to say this...
By TomZ on 7/20/07, Rating: 0
RE: i hate to say this...
By psychobriggsy on 7/20/2007 7:48:13 PM , Rating: 2
We've all seen the sales graphs that show the PS3 outselling the XBox360 at the same stage in its release.

Yes, this is because the PS3 is selling more in Japan and making up for poorer sales in the US.

I wouldn't put money on Sony selling 100m PS3s in the next 5 years, but I would put money on them selling 40m PS3s, and that they'll sell more PS3s than '360s are sold. Ever.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Timeless on 7/20/2007 8:07:14 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think Sony can outsell Microsoft then generation. I would bet that Sony can probably sell 40m PS3 in 5 years if they get some good exclusives. I would say that, at this time, Microsoft or Nintendo or Sony take the #1 console this generation. Microsoft needs to roll out the new "Falcon". Sony needs to grab as many "exclusives" as they can. Nintendo needs to pull in more third party support. Only time will tell who will take #1. It's kinda exciting.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/23/2007 11:48:07 PM , Rating: 2
I hate when people wait until I go out of town to respond...

quote:
You state a number of facts that are clearly wrong (and that don't even make any sense at all)


Hmmm, so wrong that you haven't provided and evidence to the contrary.

quote:
Pure drivel, and certainly not worth the time to dissect and respond to every mistake you made, at least not to me.


So I have to "defend" my argument ahead of time but you can't disprove it after the fact? That's humorous. I D...A...R...E you to disprove anything I've written with cold hard facts. Forgive me if I don't hold my breath.


RE: i hate to say this...
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 2:02:40 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft is very good at the game they play. you can complain all you want, but Microsoft is a huge company, and they play the waiting game very well.

But the main point here is as follows:
Microsoft is gaining market share, Sony is losing it, plain and simple. All Microsoft needs is to be at even terms with sony this time around and it is a win in their books no matter how much they lose (Sony's gaming division still lost 500 million as of december 31st, so to go from massive profits to 500 million loss is quite huge). And i would not be surprised if Microsoft gets and stays out of the red when they release their next console.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 3:48:55 PM , Rating: 1
No, my friend, Microsoft is hardly gaining marketshare. If anything, the gap in TOTAL console sales between it Nintendo and Sony continues to widen. As for complaining, why is it always "complaining" when the company you love is criticized and brilliance when its the company you hate?


RE: i hate to say this...
By JCheng on 7/20/2007 3:13:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even MS can't continue to operate in the red forever


You are talking about a company that handed $31 BILLION in cash back to shareholders (in the form of dividends and buybacks) in FY2007 alone. They can operate in the red for a hell of a long time if they think it's in the strategic interests of the company.

(Actually by "they" I mean "we" as I am a Microsoft employee, but I don't work on the Xbox--I'm one of the other ~70,000 employees.)


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 3:51:38 PM , Rating: 2
Uh Oh, The Empire Strikes Back... just kidding.

What I really meant is that MS, as a responsible company, can't just let a division bleed forever. Well, maybe it can... but I'd think that concern for its shareholders would cause it to at least look at other strategies.


RE: i hate to say this...
By omnicronx on 7/20/2007 3:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
Your missing the point, as long as microsoft is making billions elsewhere, they can do what they wish in the gaming department if they think it is a good longterm decision.
Why would shareholders give a damn when they are still gaining in profits elsewhere, a 15% increase in total profits from last year is what i would care about as a shareholder, not how their gaming division is doing.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 4:17:20 PM , Rating: 2
Just because you can afford to lose billions doesn't mean you should. As long as MS stands to gain something from its investment, then its cool. MS invested hundreds of millions in IE and eventually conquered the browser market. However, MS has a limited window of opportunity to establish that type of foothold in the VG industry. If it doesn't turn the corner in the next couple of years, then diminishing returns start to set it. After awhile, you're throwing money away for no good reason. Even a multi-billion dollar corp like MS shuts down unprofitable projects when it realizes that they aren't going to gain enough traction or yield the results it wants. MS is fighting an uphill battle against entrenched opponents and the clock is ticking. Microsoft isn't fighting for profits, its fighting for RELEVANCE and if the Xbox doesn't conquer the living room or really slow Sony down, it becomes irrelevant.


RE: i hate to say this...
By crystal clear on 7/21/2007 5:02:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The company that has sunk billions of dollars into R&D and game develop without even a THOUGHT of a profit...

Every company sinks similar amounts-If you want to survive in business you got to invest heavily in R&D let it be Sony,MS,Intel,AMD,Apple etc.
To summarize it-All companies invest very heavily in R&D-without even a THOUGHT of a profit...
quote:
The company that has no business to support a content heavy business endeavor, such as gaming...

Whats Apple got to do with cell phone bussiness that drove them hard to bring in their iPhone ???
Profits & market share is the answer !
quote:
The company that has virtually NO experience in consumer-centric design...

Apple is a software company just like M.S that get their product manufactured by contract manufacturers in Taiwan & China & elsewhere-as a matter of fact even IBM does just that-IBM is a software company now !
To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground.
quote:
The company that has a brilliant history of quality and security issues, that employs many of the best minds in its industry and STILL can not produce a stable or secure product, including its console.

All companies whoever they may be have their ups & down,some good points & some bad.Their track record has all of it -the good ,the bad,& the ugly.
Example-Sony batteries !that explode
Its like your life-it has good & bad experiences.
Its like your career-it has patches of good & bad performances.
To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground.
quote:
Guess which one that is?

Its your post thats worse off.
quote:
One of the reasons MS hit the market first with an obviously flawed design is so that people like you can quote completely misleading sales figures. Here are a few facts...

No company in its right mind puts out(intentionally) a product with flawed design,including M.S.
Mistakes are made-like you do also-we are all human beings-we all make mistakes.Yes we do correct those mistakes & we learn from that experience & improve.

To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground.
quote:
The PS3s sales arc is comparable to the 360s at a similar stage and comparable with early sales of the PS2. If you had told anyone that Sony would sell 120+ million PS2s with Microsoft entering the market with the supposedly superior Xbox, you would have been laughed out of the room.

Consumer taste & preference are always changing-nobody can predict them or statistically prove them to be that.
You bring in a product into the market,you never really know how it will sell-its a process of wait and see how it goes.I am talking from experience only.
Statiscally you cannot predict correctly anything-statiscal predictions are not reliable.

To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground.
quote:
Before the Elite or the design issues, 360 sales had practically ground to a halt.

You are wrong on this-again consumer buying decisions(when & what he will buy) are not predictable.
You sumarize your sales on quaterly basis-there is no evidence to prove that
To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground..
quote:
Even MS can't continue to operate in the red forever. And things aren't getting cheaper either. If MS doesn't start posting profits soon it likely will NEVER BE ABLE TO. Then you have a huge red gouge in your ledger every month. At what point does it become fiscally more responsible to your shareholders to shut down a failing division?

Yes MS cant continue to operate in red forever-thats the reason,they take corrective measures to rectify the situation- nobody can take it for granted that the Xbox will not make a profit.
Corrective measures(technical & personnel) after they are implemented,the results of which you will see only after a quater or two-it takes time for these results to show.


To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground..


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/24/2007 12:22:44 AM , Rating: 2
This argument is pure drivel. Your response to my post can be summed up in a sentence...

You never know.

If the notion is that you've disproven my post by stating absolutely nothing then "congratulations." You're a master of debate. Let's look at some of your gems...

quote:
All companies invest very heavily in R&D-without even a THOUGHT of a profit...


Really... and I guess making money has absolutely NOTHING to do with it, either in patents or actual products? Your command of business is intimidating...

quote:
Whats Apple got to do with cell phone bussiness that drove them hard to bring in their iPhone ???


I guess its assets in industrial design, software, and content (via Disney and many partnerships) was worthless, huh? Maybe THAT'S why AT&T bent over backwards to go into a partnership with Apple, because Apple DIDN'T have a ton of business assets to leverage. Okay, right. For the record, other than its own deep pockets, what assets does MS have to inspire notions that it will win the console wars? Quick answer: NONE OF SIGNIFICANCE. MS's game studios are in the red and it has yet to produce any content ventures of significance that have made a profit. Go figure.

quote:
All companies whoever they may be have their ups & down,some good points & some bad.Their track record has all of it -the good ,the bad,& the ugly.


I hope you aren't a stock broker because you obviously don't understand the concepts of TRENDS or PATTERNS. Never bet on someone doing something that they have never done before... or have never SUCCEEDED at doing before.

quote:
Its your post thats worse off.


A lot better off than your "rebuttal."

quote:
No company in its right mind puts out(intentionally) a product with flawed design,including M.S.
Mistakes are made-like you do also-we are all human beings-we all make mistakes.Yes we do correct those mistakes & we learn from that experience & improve.


So THAT'S your response... "we all make mistakes"? No company in its right mind puts out an intentionally flawed product? Wrong, wrong, WRONG! Almost EVERY product released into the market is released with flaws, it's only the degree. IMO MS released a product that it knew had major design flaws... with its resources in money and manpower, HOW COULD IT NOT? MS wanted one year up on Sony and it was a smart business move if it had worked out properly. However, MS didn't anticipate that the problem was as serious as it was or that the Wii would be so compelling. But I guess "we all make mistakes," right?

quote:
Consumer taste & preference are always changing-nobody can predict them or statistically prove them to be that.


Once again, this is a non-response. Moot.

quote:
You sumarize your sales on quaterly basis-there is no evidence to prove that


Just quarterly statistics that track TRENDS and ACTUAL SALES. The industry maintains them and every company, including MS and Sony, puts stock in them. But because YOU have decided they are invalid, they're invalid. I'll be sure to let the industry know that it should no longer track trends and sales patterns because you think they are invalid. I'm sure it'll stop immediately.

quote:
Yes MS cant continue to operate in red forever-thats the reason,they take corrective measures to rectify the situation- nobody can take it for granted that the Xbox will not make a profit.
Corrective measures(technical & personnel) after they are implemented,the results of which you will see only after a quater or two-it takes time for these results to show.


I didn't state that the Xbox would NEVER make a profit, only that it hadn't made one yet and wouldn't in the foreseeable future. Prove me wrong with some cold, hard numbers.

quote:
To summarize it-your(this) argument doesnt hold any ground..


Funny, I was thinking the same thing... about yours.


RE: i hate to say this...
By FITCamaro on 7/20/2007 1:10:03 PM , Rating: 2
If you don't think Microsoft isn't already designing the Xbox 720 or whatever it'll be called, you're a fool.

Just like Sony is already thinking about the PS4 and Nintendo about whatever will come after the Wii. Once development on a current generation console stops, development on the next generation starts.

No they may not have hardware picked out (how could they with at best a possible release in 2010). But you can be sure that they are already have people working on what the next system will include.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/20/2007 1:44:27 PM , Rating: 2
You're right. But I'll take my chances that the x720 won't hit the shelves in three years, as many are predicting. Even Microsoft is beholden to its shareholders.


RE: i hate to say this...
By TomZ on 7/20/2007 1:50:37 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, and I think that Sony is doing more than thinking about PS4 - they're probably actively working on it. What else would all the PS3 engineers be doing after they finished PS3? Also, it would be foolish for them to not be working toward having another generation ready in a couple of years.

Same goes for Microsoft. I didn't hear anything about layoffs at Microsoft, so it would be fair to assume that all the engineers that worked on XBOX360 are now working on the next-gen console.


RE: i hate to say this...
By FITCamaro on 7/20/2007 2:09:38 PM , Rating: 2
By thinking I meant working. ;)

But for the PS4 I doubt we're going to see anything "revolutionary" like the Cell come about. I see them adding Cell processors to it, upgrading the graphics chip, and increasing the memory and hard drive space. Blu-ray will stay if it wins the format war, maybe anyways because if it doesn't and they stick with it, they have a way to help prevent piracy with discs being more expensive to the end consumer.

As for the Xbox 720, who knows. Maybe they'll use one or more AMD Fusion chips for the CPU. The GPU side of it would be good for running AI and other routines on.


RE: i hate to say this...
By EndPCNoise on 7/20/2007 3:28:16 PM , Rating: 2
Just because you can release a new console quickly does not necessarily mean you should release a new console quickly.

Just ask Peter Moore and the boys over at Sega. They have first hand experience, learning the hard way, that this may not be such a great idea.

Less than 10 years ago Sega rushed the release of the Sega Dreamcast shortly following the Sega Saturn. This greatly worsened the already struggling sales of the Saturn.

Third party developers, who were working on games for the Saturn, got burned by this move from Sega. So, when Sega needed third party developers to make games for the new Dreamcast, third party developers, who had been recently burned by Sega, were "less than enthusiastic" about developing games for the new Dreamcast.

Saturn and Dreamcast failed, and Sega has not released another console since. (and the rest is history)

This may be why you don't see Nintendo and Sony rushing out new consoles on the heels of their existing consoles.


RE: i hate to say this...
By TomZ on 7/20/2007 4:39:31 PM , Rating: 2
Developing something is not the same as releasing something. It is obvious to everyone that a 3-5 year upgrade cycle is about right for the gaming industry. That's why development continues on next-gen systems quietly behind closed doors. Neither third-party developers nor consumers know what's going on, so they don't fixate on the next-gen stuff, and instead focus on systems that are available today. It's a pretty straight-forward business strategy.


RE: i hate to say this...
By EndPCNoise on 7/20/2007 6:33:32 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, yes, I too was aware of all that TomZ. (respectfully)

My post was not necessarily directed towards you. Rather, it was in response to the people who think (for some reason) the xbox 720 will be released by November 2008 (3 years after 360) or even November 2009 (4 years after 360).

MS would be shooting themselves in the foot if they released the xbox 720 that soon. I'm sure Peter Moore (from his personal experience) has explained this to MS (Robbie Bach) in great detail.

TomZ, I would like to add that I enjoy reading your posts, and I'll be the first to admit your knowledge far exceeds mine on any given day.

TomZ, I liked your post addressing "Mach Omega's" forum etiquette.

Lastly TomZ, everybody knows Firefox is "hands down" better than IE7. :)


RE: i hate to say this...
By TomZ on 7/20/2007 7:50:55 PM , Rating: 2
I think you forgot your sarcasm markers. People might otherwise think you're being serious. Especially about the Firefox comment. :o)


RE: i hate to say this...
By Mach Omega on 7/24/2007 12:31:45 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, and here I had this crazy idea that, because of the sheer breadth of data that is mentioned on forums every day, that people would actually do THEIR OWN RESEARCH! Why would I think anything as unreasonable as that.

As for TomZ's "knowledge," I have yet to any proof of his spectacular wisdom. And, if he is so brilliant, why can't he substantiate his own criticisms? You're welcome to enlighten me at any time Tom.


RE: i hate to say this...
By JimFear on 7/22/2007 10:37:15 AM , Rating: 2
The engineers are more likely working on cutting costs rather than new consoles...how to make it more efficient, how to lower the BoM, how to make it run at lower temps...console development is a rolling project. We'll see hardware revisions for the PS3 before we see anything about the PS4.


RE: i hate to say this...
By afkrotch on 7/22/2007 10:38:14 PM , Rating: 2
I'd say Microsoft isn't designing any hardware anything for the next incarnation of the Xbox. At most, they are simply coming up with ideas for what to include in it.

Right now, their main concerns would be to make hardware revisions to the current 360 to make it cheaper or to fix issues. More work on the firmware side of things. Have a plan for the Marketplace and where it might stand in the coming years.

I'm sure they aren't even thinking about what kind of hardware the next Xbox will have, simply because the hardware they'll be considering isn't out. For all we know, in 8 years, the Xbox 720 will use the Intel Core Octo Cell 3 processor and a Atividia HD 5800 XTX SLI.


RE: i hate to say this...
By d0gb0y on 7/20/2007 3:05:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The PS3's graphics are piddly next to the mighty 360... even though its already been shown that PS3 graphics generally match and sometimes even exceed the 360 in quality...


Maybe it is because I don't just want graphics to be just as good if I'm paying a premium....


RE: i hate to say this...
By Gul Westfale on 7/20/2007 5:34:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The post above is why some people think most people on forums are just company schills.


i do not own an xbox, and am not planning to buy one. ever.

quote:
a comparably configured 360 COSTS MORE and STILL DOES...


the 360 comes with 512MB of RAM, and cannot be configured with 256MB. i know it's shared between CPU and GPU, but the fact is that the PS3 is limited to playing games that fit in its 256MB, while the xbox is more flexible there. i also realise that the money M$ charges for hard drives and other add-ons is outrageous, but the basic system is perfectly capable of playing all the games- nobody forces you to pay more for it than for a PS3.

quote:
Virtually every complaint has been fixed via firmware. Yet the PS3 is still considered overpriced junk, completely unable to compete with the 360...


might this be because sony insisted that the PS3 was the second coming of christ, but then had to patch things up when people realised the machine wasn't working as it was supposed to? i honestly do not see the difference between EA patching its games in order to make them playable well after they have been launched, and a hardware maker enabling functionality that was supposed to have been in there from the get go through a patch aka firmware update. sony messed up.

quote:
The PS3's graphics are piddly next to the mighty 360... even though its already been shown that PS3 graphics generally match and sometimes even exceed the 360 in quality...


the PS3 uses a geforce 7 with a RAM interface cut down to 128 bits only. a castrated 7800, if you will. the xbox uses a custom chip by ATI that is not, as some have said, an early DX10 chip really just a DX9er with some added functionality. its main drawback appears to be its fixed framebuffer of only 10MB which should make AA at high resolutions rather hard to achieve... but i'm no expert on that. when i aid that the PS3 had "only" a 7800 i wasn't comparing it to the 360 but rather my PC, which is equipped with an 8800. that is one of the reasons why i'm not interested in any console- my PC is already more capable (the other being that i like PC games better).

quote:
If the PS3 had been released in its current form, there would be no doubt that it is the superior system, especially in light of the 360's design flaws.


i agree with you there; and if sony had released the PSP with darkalex' firmware instead of its own it might be outselling the DS... but that is not what sony did. they messed up and so people were turned off by that- couple that with the xbox' lower price, larger games library, and established online service and there you go.

quote:
all you here from MS fanboys is "wait for 65nm." C'MON, that isn't hypocritical or anything.


it isn't hypocritical from my point of view because i'm not an M$ fanboy. what i said is that IF i were in the market for any system then i'd get an xbox, but i'd wait for the 65nm update- and why shouldn't i? next year at this time sony will have a die shrink- and then all the sony fanboys will say the same. why should i get an inferior, failure-prone machine when i can get a better one in a couple of months??

quote:
Gaming isn't a religion... or at least shouldn't be. The PS3 is a great product and has shown to be a better investment than the 360. That doesn't mean the 360 sucks but, let's face it, it isn't as great as everyone thought.


i agree again- gaming should be, above all, FUN. and the 360 is not a homerun, no- but neither is the PS3. both machines have advantages and disadvantages; but to complement my PC i would still choose the 360- because it's cheaper and has more games. in 2 years that might all be different, but we're not 2 years in the future yet.


RE: i hate to say this...
By FITCamaro on 7/20/2007 12:55:02 PM , Rating: 2
$50 for 13 months of service is hardly a rip off though. I mean you get to play every 360 game with online play, can chat with your friends via voice chat or even video, and even get a good amount of content for free.

You can even get the 13 month card for $45 on newegg.com. Less than $3.50 a month is hardly anything to scoff at. I'd rather pay for it and have it all fully integrated than get it for free and leave it all up to the developers as to how good it'll be. You're paying for the massive amount of work it takes Microsoft to maintain Xbox Live. You're talking a ton of programming, maintenance, bandwidth, etc.

Not everything on the planet is going to be free. Yes PC games have had free online play for a long time. But someone's paying for it, it doesn't just come out of thin air. Sure, for a game like Battlefield 2 sure, EA has some servers. But the majority of servers are privately hosted ones that someone is paying for out of their pocket. So while it doesn't cost you anything, it does cost money.

Microsoft can't just eat that cost. And Sony won't either. The games developers will have to. And which do you think a developer would rather have, themselves paying for the servers, or Microsoft doing it?

And until Sony actually releases the PS3s online system, don't compare the two. I personally love the Live interface. I don't want a 3D environment full of preteens doing gay emotes as I try to just download a demo. I've said it before, if I want that, I'll go play WoW.


RE: i hate to say this...
By Timeless on 7/20/2007 7:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
I love how you said not to compare the two online systems and then continue on to bash on the PS3. The thing is, you have no clue how the PS3 online system will come up but you're already bashing it. Nice way of being hypocritical. Secondly, what's better that having to pay $50 to play online? Getting to play for free. Last I heard, PS3 online was free. Correct me if I'm wrong cause I was out of touch with gaming for a while. You know, playing outside and all. It's great and everyone should do it more often. And as for your gay emotes comment, yes that is so much worse then the 9 year olds that whine when they lose and rub it your face when they win that I have seen(or "heard" to be more correct) so much on Xbox LIve.


"Folks that want porn can buy an Android phone." -- Steve Jobs














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki