backtop

Print E-mail del.icio.us 56 comment(s) - last by Vertigo101.. on Sep 22 at 9:55 AM
1080p support announced for XBOX 360 at Tokyo Game Show - dashboard update coming this year

2Old2Play has posted an article with some early coverage from the 2006 Tokyo Game Show. According to an announcement made early this morning, Microsoft's XBOX 360 game console will receive a dashboard update this year to enable 1080p support.

The forthcoming dashboard update will enable support for 1080p (1920x1080) resolution; however, the current lack of an HDMI cable for the XBOX 360 means this resolution will only be supported over component and VGA. Existing games and DVDs will be able to take advantage of this resolution through the upscaling feature of the XBOX 360, but no "native 1080p content" has been prepared for release as of yet.

With the advent of the HD DVD add-on drive and the rumors of a new XBOX 360 with an internal HD DVD drive, the update to include 1080p support may be part of the "surprise" Microsoft claimed was in store to counter Sony's PlayStation 3, scheduled to launch in Japan on November 11 (November 17 for North America).

Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled
hmm..
By lwright84 on 9/20/2006 11:33:12 AM , Rating: 2
seems like kind of a waste considering games won't be developed for the HD-DVD medium, and -- as all the anti-sony fanboys are quick to point out -- no true videophile is going to consider a gaming console as the primary player for either of the next-gen formats.




RE: hmm..
By nerdboy on 9/20/2006 11:50:59 AM , Rating: 1
and also DRM Blows


RE: hmm..
By michal1980 on 9/20/06, Rating: -1
RE: hmm..
By h0kiez on 9/20/2006 12:46:03 PM , Rating: 4
I'm right here (Sony basher).

If you read dailytech from time to time, you should already know that there a multitude of reasons to hate Sony. This is just one of them. Either way, MS still gives you the choice as to whether you want the HD DVD player or not. Sony forced Blu-Ray on you because they want to control the HD media market and get all the licensing fees from every media studio that makes Blu-Ray content.

So the PS3 "comes with" Blu-Ray...fine. I'm not angry that it's in there, I just think it's stupid that Sony has delayed the PS3 by...what, over a year already? Not to mention that there still extremely tight supple of the blue-laser diodes necessary for the PS3. The bottom line is that all this tech in the PS3 isn't ready fro primetime quite yet (Cell processor yields...), but Sony feels necessary to stuff it all in (all at a huge loss per system) because they just want to shove another proprietary format down the world's throat.

Even if you were able to effectively rebut everything that I have said, I would still dislike Sony's business practices for MANY other reasons (proprietary formats in cameras, PSP, rootkits, battery recall). These reason are legit. Consumers are and should be mad at Sony for a lot of this crap. I'm not a fanboy of MS or anyone else...and if the PS3 is fantastic, I'll get one in a year. But how about you stop living in a world where everyone that actually stands up against a company whose practices are anti-consumer and unethical is a fanboy.


RE: hmm..
By michal1980 on 9/20/06, Rating: -1
RE: hmm..
By h0kiez on 9/20/2006 3:02:54 PM , Rating: 2
Hey...nobody hated Sony 3 years ago. Regardless of whether you think it's deserved or not, everyone didn't just up and decide and start bashing them. They worked very hard to earn all the bashing. I'm all for them wanting to make money, etc., and they of course have the right to release whatever products they wish at whatever time they wish with whatever features they wish. But do you really want a DRM-laden standard developed by a company that less than 1 year prior installed rootkits onto tens of thousands of computers?

As for the format war...it is stupid in a sense. Both have well more capacity than they need to store a full length movie at 1080p with all the bells and whistles with proper compresssion. Many 1st gen Blu-Ray titles look like crap (widely reported) due to stupid choices of compression formats, but in the end, I have no doubt that a movie on either one will end up looking the same.


RE: hmm..
By Soccerman06 on 9/20/2006 4:51:17 PM , Rating: 4
Where have you been? People on this board have hated Sony long before the anouncement of the PS3, try back when the Emotion chip from when the PS2 was launched, people hated Sony because of the overhype they did, ya it was revolutionary but those pre-rendered scenes shown at E3 and whatnot are just not real.


RE: hmm..
By JNo on 9/21/2006 8:56:57 AM , Rating: 4
yah exactly and emotion wasn't even revolutionary - revolutionary would imply that graphics in xbox, dreamcast and PC were left far behind.

Which they weren't.

And it didn't even get me very emotional either :/


RE: hmm..
By h0kiez on 9/20/2006 3:17:27 PM , Rating: 2
Also...forgot to mention...as far as the killer app, I won't disagree that the 360 needs some more great games. I have said since I go it that many things about it are nearly perfect...the wireless controllers, the dashboard and interface, XB Live, integration with Media Center PCs, the hackabilty :)...and that a few killer games is what it needs. But Oblivion is one glaring exception...and I think that several more killer apps (Gears of War), Forza 2, and please lord hurry up and make a new Ninja Gaiden...all these should change that pretty soon (hopefully).


RE: hmm..
By tuteja1986 on 9/20/2006 5:55:24 PM , Rating: 2
I think lost odyssey is the last hope for Microsoft in the Japanese market. The demo they showed at Microsoft TGS 2006 press conference was absolutely stunning in graphic wise ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9tMOMRboWs


RE: hmm..
By Arkham1 on 9/20/2006 9:19:03 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention the ignorance behind all the Sony=Rootkit nonsense. That was Sony BMG, a company that licenses the Sony name, not Sony Electronics, Sony Computer Entertainment, etc. Sony Computer Entertainment is practically the black-sheep of the family, they've never gotten along with the other guys. There are plenty of better reasons to bag on Sony without bringing batteries and rootkits into it.

The level of M$fanboy venom this generation is staggering. I think it all started with those coked-up fratboy reps they started hiring during the first XBOX marketing era...


RE: hmm..
By fenderkb76 on 9/20/2006 10:51:58 PM , Rating: 2
Never mind that the Xbox 360 will have been available (at least in some quantities) for a year prior to the release of the PS3. Given the electronics product cycle, consumers should DEMAND much more for the same amount of money given that a full year would have passed. You also can't put a price on the enjoyment that Xbox 360 owners have had for a full year while Sony fanboys have bashed the 360 saying how much better the PS3 will be. By the way, it's going to be just as hard or harder to get your hands on a PS3 this year as it was the 360 last year.


RE: hmm..
By michal1980 on 9/20/06, Rating: -1
RE: hmm..
By vanka on 9/20/2006 5:37:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
And DRM is needed because people cannot be trusted to legally copy material.

Ok, so start treating your customers like criminals; this is what gave Sony the bad image it currently has in the first place. Here's the thing: most people will not pirate movies, music, games, whatever and those that do will find a way around the DRM. I know people who buy a game and the first thing they do is go online to find a crack to get around all the disc checking and other copy protection cr@p. I myself have done this to get around waiting for five minutes while the disc is being verified or whatever.

In my opinion the various copy protections inconvienence legit users more than they do the pirates. I think Valve had the right idea when they released Half-Life; a unique serial key without which you cannot play online. True they had some issues with keygens at first, but they straitened that out. When HL first came out I borrowed it from my friend, but was unable to play online so I went out and bought the platinum version. For me the online play (DM and CS) was more important than the single player game, single play was like an extended demo for me.


RE: hmm..
By michal1980 on 9/20/06, Rating: -1
Component and VGA needed anyway
By Sunday Ironfoot on 9/20/2006 12:23:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...however, the current lack of an HDMI cable for the XBOX 360 means this resolution will only be supported over component and VGA.


Component and VGA also needed for 720p and 1080i.

Also I thought 1080p wasn't possible over analogue based cables (vga, component etc.)?




RE: Component and VGA needed anyway
By tophat on 9/20/2006 12:54:59 PM , Rating: 2
HD resolution is entirely possible with component video. They're pushing HDMI for the DRM. In this case, I don't know how they're going to enforce the DRM over component.


By clementlim on 9/20/2006 12:56:41 PM , Rating: 2
That's what I thought too. Seems like a software conveys data through an analogue medium and into a "component" that processed it as HD and then pass through HDMI or DVI-HD or something like that and into the HDCP+HDMI/DVI-HD ready screen...seems like a way to pirate content by "modifying" the as-said "component".

Just a useless thought...or is it?


RE: Component and VGA needed anyway
By h0kiez on 9/20/2006 1:01:07 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah...initially they said that everything would be downscaled if you weren't using an HDCP compliant box/display/cable(HDMI), etc. I always wondered how they expected to get any market penetration whatsoever with the small amount of HDCP-capable TVs out there. My guess is that they're relaxing it a little...and obviously opening up a huge hole for pirates by transmitting the full 1080p over analog cables.


By masteraleph on 9/20/2006 4:48:22 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed, it will be downscaled, if the disc has an ICT (Image Constraint Token).

Of course, all the major studios have agreed not to deploy ICTs until at least 2010, but hey...(note that the core version of the PS3 doesn't feature HDCP capabilities either)


RE: Component and VGA needed anyway
By theapparition on 9/20/2006 1:12:08 PM , Rating: 2
Component has more than enough bandwidth to handle HDTV and was infact the first HDTV interface.
As for VGA, if your looking at your monitor in 1600x1200 your at about the same bandwidth of 1080P.

One reason that both of these standards (and DVI) were abandoned was the lack of copy protection.....ah, yes....DRM to f' us again. That is why you will never see component inputs on consumer level equipment.

HDMI is neat that it carries the audio signal, small cable but it also has the broadcast protection circuitry built in. And that doesn't just mean Blu-ray and HD-DVD. The protection can also be implemented by networks so you can't record TV anymore. Say goodbye to TIVO in the future for some programs. Want to watch the big game, but its your wife's birthday and have to go out. If the NFL doesn't want you recording it........your out of luck. Time to keep that old analog VCR/DVD player. Mark my words....its coming.

I have a D-VHS (<--yes, a VCR) that outputs HDTV at 1080i. It uses component out, and to record, I use firewire hooked up to my cable box. JVC also has an HDMI version. SDTV records at 50hrs per tape, with about 6hrs HDTV. Much cheaper than HD-DVD, and forget Blu-ray. Oh yeah.....I've had it for over two years why everyone else fought. I know tape is tape, but its worked fine for me and I already have a library of movies and sports on HDTV. I'll wait on HDDVD vs BRD until one standard.

The console wars will be very interesting this Christmas season.


By Vertigo101 on 9/20/2006 6:55:59 PM , Rating: 2
Notice that DVI supports HDCP, and HDMI is simply a repackaged DVI interface with digital audio support thrown in.


But...
By hstewarth on 9/20/2006 10:15:01 AM , Rating: 2
But Microsoft stated that 1080p was not possible on the console.

I guess that was only marketting propaganda.




RE: But...
By Schadenfroh on 9/20/2006 10:18:05 AM , Rating: 1
I will believe it when I see it.


RE: But...
By Kevil on 9/20/2006 11:44:02 AM , Rating: 2
Did MS not bash 1080p a while back saying it wasnt needed...



RE: But...
By ZeeStorm on 9/20/2006 12:35:19 PM , Rating: 1
They probably meant game-wise it's not possible. This update is referring to 1080p on HD-DVD movies, not games.

(And yes, it's a marketing thing, M$ has planned out the whole scheme of things, they know what will happen the next 2 years o.O besides ballmer getting shot or something)


RE: But...
By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 2:25:19 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think so.

Since the game GT4 in PS2 can also provide 1080i resolution. It's shoudn't be a problem for both 360 and PS3 to provide 1080p.

The matter is is that any developer willing to do that. Sony proofen her support to the platform.


RE: But...
By ViperROhb34 on 9/20/2006 1:22:25 PM , Rating: 3
Propaganda is used to make yourself look better not worse..

The statement if indeed was said ( Wheres you source and link ? ) was meant to cover video games..

If you want to speak about PROPAGANDA .. Sony made statements about 1080p games.. but tech reviews of the PS3 have said 1080p would be a near if not total impossibility for any games with the next gen graphics you expect to see on PS3 because the graphics card and memory bandwidth of a PS3 will not allow playable framerates.

I own a Xbox 360.. I expect the same is true of it.. True 1080p in a game on either console would just be real tick-tacky on the framerate..

1080p on a movie makes sense..


RE: But...
By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 2:18:11 AM , Rating: 1
>>>but tech reviews of the PS3 have said 1080p would be a near if not total impossibility for any games with the next gen graphics you expect to see on PS3 because the graphics card and memory bandwidth of a PS3 will not allow playable framerates.

1. Public demo of GT-HD shows that real PS3 hardware is able to run a game at 1080p60.
2. Even the GT4 in PS2 can provide 1080i resolution. It won't be surprised to see PS3 to fire games at 1080p.
3. Don't tell me u believe to such a "tech review" that only "estimate" without an actual hardware is relaible. =>


Gimmick
By peerless on 9/20/2006 2:07:16 PM , Rating: 1
Considering DVD-9 can only hold 7.95 GB there won't be any 1080p games at all. Now if the system does an upconversion I'll enjoy it on my 50" Sony SXRD but it's not going to be that much of an improvement. I won't be buying the HD-DVD until all this crap gets sorted out. Besides people can bash Sony all they want but at least for $600 you're getting everything in the system and wifi. The only reason I even got a 360 was because I got it free. If I were the normal consumer I'd be outraged that to get 360 with wifi, HD-DVD, and a smaller hard drive is going to run you around $700.

Besides all this name one external drive ever released for a game system that actually was successful....




RE: Gimmick
By slashbinslashbash on 9/20/2006 2:30:20 PM , Rating: 3
That's like saying "Considering DVD-9 can only hold 7.95GB there aren't any computer games that I can play at 1600x1200 resolution." The resolution of the games has nothing to do with the medium and everything to do with the power of the GPU (which, in the Xbox 360, is plenty powerful enough to do 1080p). There are plenty of computer games that come on 650MB CD-ROMs that are capable of being played at 1600x1200 and beyond.


RE: Gimmick
By ajira99 on 9/20/2006 2:39:27 PM , Rating: 2
So for that $600 are getting any games, more than one wireless controller, or accessories like a headset or memory card? Blu-Ray could go the way of many of Sony's other formats and you'll be stuck with it. As long as MS offers some type of upgrade path for existing 360 owners to a new console w/CPU die shrink and onboard HD-DVD/HDMI, I won't complain.


RE: Gimmick
By splines on 9/20/2006 6:04:29 PM , Rating: 2
The resolution has nothing to do with how big the game is. Game assets (textures, models, sound and code) determine how big the game is. Sound is the biggest killer; Oblivion's final size was about half audio tracks for all the recorded speech they did.

1080p is just the number of pixels drawn on the screen - a visual representation of the game's assets. The higher the resolution, the more pixels the console has to draw, and the more likely you're going to hit low framerates.

PC games have been able to run at 1600x1200 and oftentimes higher for years now, and they still fit on DVD9. (Didn't GLQuake eventually hit something like 1600x1200? That game's as old as the earth and fits on a CD-ROM!)

As for the rest, this whole "add up the bits" to make up the PS3's cost is pointless. I don't know anybody who's going to get the HD-DVD drive, or the WiFi adapter. At least Microsoft gave people the choice, instead of loading it all in and pushing the price through a fairly big psychological barrier for many.


RE: Gimmick
By Vertigo101 on 9/20/2006 6:51:38 PM , Rating: 2
I can easily run JDoom at 1080p or higher, so yeah, size matters not.


Too many people freaking out about 1080p
By slashbinslashbash on 9/20/2006 1:08:20 PM , Rating: 2
As far as bandwidth or number of pixels goes, 1080p isn't all that awesome.

1080p = 1080x1920 = 2,073,600 pixels
nice desktop resolution = 1200x1600 = 1,920,000 pixels

That's an 8% difference in the number of pixels. Really pretty minor. Review sites like Anandtech have been using 1200x1600 as a standard benchmark resolution with high eye candy *and* AA for years now. If you really think that the 48-pixel-shader R500 (basically an X1900) in the Xbox 360 isn't capable of 1080p output (for games, movies, anything), well, you're wrong. That is a monster of a chip, and limiting it to 720p (720x1280 = 921,600 pixels, less than the number of pixels on your average 17" LCD) is silly.




By Sunday Ironfoot on 9/20/2006 11:40:37 PM , Rating: 2
Key difference, one is widescreen.

Also I'm sure if you spoke to developers, they would rather sacrifice some resolution (720p instead of 1080p) in return for using that GPU power to render more realistic worlds (more and polygons) and better effects (HDR etc).


By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 2:45:16 AM , Rating: 2
Yes. Wide-scrren gaming is really cool. But still u have been missed out a very important point.

For PC, u can live with a 22" LCD mon only. But for console, we can enjoy 52" Bravia LCD, or even 60" Panasonic plasma plus 9.1 Onkyo/Denon THX AV system. The strengh of console comes with her higher ability to integrate with home theater systems. For example, none of the current PC games has real time DTS engine like the one used in many EA PS2 games.


By drafz on 9/21/2006 3:30:54 PM , Rating: 2
yup 48 shader engine ,but only 8 ROP.
the max fillrate output is nearly equal to a 9800XT.



But what sort of 1080p?
By JNo on 9/20/2006 2:03:48 PM , Rating: 2
But will the xbox 360 support 1080p24, 1080p30 or 1080p50/1080p60? If not the latter 50/60 fps, does that mean games would be limited to 30 fps at 1080 resolution? Also, will any games experience slow down at 1080 vs 720? And is will it be mandatory for game developers to make sure their games run smoothly at 1080, or just 720 like originally?

answers on a postcard please..
(ok go on then, you can just post a comment instead)




RE: But what sort of 1080p?
By Chris Peredun on 9/20/2006 2:31:25 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately I wasn't able to find anything more specific than "1080p" - it should be at least 1080p30, since that's the same effective bandwidth as the currently supported 1080i60.

Regarding the issues of rendering games at 1920x1080 - I have faith that the XBOX 360's full power hasn't even begun to be tapped yet. In addition, not every game needs to run at 60fps. While I wouldn't want to play Burnout 5 at anything less than "eye scorching" rates, a slower-paced RPG like Oblivion is quite fine at 30fps.


RE: But what sort of 1080p?
By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 2:49:40 AM , Rating: 2
Frankly speaking, I don't believe even the full power of original had been tapped out yet.

Take a look on PS2, it take 6 yrs in order to have a 1080i resolution game GT4, which most people believe it is the unlocked the full potential of the 6 yrs old PS2 technology.

But M$ would like you to upgrade ur console after 3 yrs, they simply put their business method from PC to consoles.


RE: But what sort of 1080p?
By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 2:50:18 AM , Rating: 2
I mean the original XBox1


Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio
By Zorlac on 9/20/2006 4:28:04 PM , Rating: 2
Okay...lets be optimistic and say that MS gives us 1080p24/30/60 over HDMI ver 1.3

Now are they going to decode Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio in the new HD-DVD add-on, or will this be a dash board update???




RE: Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio
By Vertigo101 on 9/20/2006 6:48:16 PM , Rating: 2
There will be an update released to coincide with the release of the HD-DVD add-on.

I'd expect the TrueHD and DTS-HD streams to get down-mixed to DD 5.1 or WMA-Pro.


RE: Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio
By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 2:51:24 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think they will do Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding, as that will need M$ to paid additioanl license fee.


By Vertigo101 on 9/22/2006 9:55:02 AM , Rating: 1
Since they are both part of the HD-DVD spec, MS would be commiting suicide to ignore them.


Awesome
By 05SilverGT on 9/20/2006 10:12:29 AM , Rating: 2
Yet another reason I'm happy I bought my XBox360 and yet another reason I don't feel the need to get at PS3 right away. 1080P Gaming and HDDVD goodness on my Westy 47-w1 1080P LCD! :)




RE: Awesome
By Arkham1 on 9/20/2006 10:31:27 AM , Rating: 2
How's the banding on that monitor? I was considering that 42" model, but heard it was apparent on a few of the 37s and 42s, but not all of them. Kind of a hit'n'miss situation, but still, great bang for the buck.


RE: Awesome
By five40 on 9/20/2006 12:14:40 PM , Rating: 2
I had two LVM-37w1's with slight banding. I got the LVM-37w3 about 4 months ago and I completely love it. There are no issues what so ever with it. Westinghouse has some of the best customer service I've ever dealt with. When my LVM-37w1 had problems I called them and they gave me store credit at BB to get anything I wanted. I couldn't believe it. I could have purchased any TV but with the great customer service and price I couldn't pass up the LVM-37w3.


No HDMI? No thanks!
By robber98 on 9/20/2006 1:55:43 PM , Rating: 2
With so many electronic components cramp into a small box, the background noise can easily interfeces the DAC process. Until M$ find a way to add HDMI output, the "1080P over analog cable" is a joke to me.




RE: No HDMI? No thanks!
By EclipsedAurora on 9/21/2006 12:52:28 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think XBox's 1080p support is too bad, but u need a quality component video cable that cost you another US$200 for sure.

Also the onboard DAC quality of XBox 360/PS3 are also needed to be concerned. For obtain good 1080p output, we are talking about at least 14bit/216MHz video DAC. As an reference, cheapest DVD player obtain 1080p 14bit/216MHz video DAC is Marantz DV9600, which cost around US$2000. With the extreme high cost to get good quality 1080p output, I don't think both Xbox360 and basic version PS3 will employ this kind of hardware.


RE: No HDMI? No thanks!
By obstreperous on 9/21/2006 8:39:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
but u need a quality component video cable that cost you another US$200 for sure.


Are you kidding $200 for a component cable?. Component is just 3 x coax cables.


I'm happy
By PitbulI on 9/20/2006 2:07:14 PM , Rating: 2
As a current XBox 360 owner, I'm happy that Microsoft is able to improve their product like they are.

The internal HD-DVD drive does bother me though. If it will be the same price as a normal XBox 360 platinum which I can't believe happening simply because if the drive costs almost 200 dollars, even if they take out the 20 dollar DVD drive, they're still left with a big void in the price to fill.

Just as long as Microsoft doesn't make the HD-DVD drive standard in a few years for games on the 360. I would be left out in the cold then.

Hopefully if it does come out though and it' the same price as a normal platinum, I would be able to use my exchange warranty on it.




RE: I'm happy
By Chillin1248 (blog) on 9/20/2006 6:38:39 PM , Rating: 2
I believe Microsoft has stated they are releasing a version of the Xbox360 with HD-DVD and not that the Xbox360 will have HD-DVD as a standard. So look for something like "Xbox 360 Diamond" or "Gold" edition costing roughly between $550 and $600 to be released. Remember that there is a shortage of the 405 wavelength diodes for Blu-Ray, HD-DVD uses pretty much the same thing and it is not like they happened on a magic stash. The HD-DVD edition will most likely be a limited release at first for publicity, afterwards when availibility is better you should see more on store shelves.

Those are my thoughts.

-----
Chillin


I wont believe
By GhandiInstinct on 9/20/06, Rating: -1
RE: I wont believe
By Vertigo101 on 9/20/2006 1:04:39 PM , Rating: 2
It's just a resolution man....what's so hard to understand?

You can set your computer monitor to whatever resolution it will support....do you suspect that they are somehow not 'native' resolutions?


"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes

DailyTech Poll
Which web browser do you use on your primary personal machine? 






44 Comments









botimage
Copyright 2009 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki