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"It's a trap!"

Janella Spears lost $400,000 to internet scammers, after cleaning out her husband's retirement account, remortgaging their house, and taking a lien on their car.  (Source: KATU.com)

The letters contained many obvious typos, yet Mrs. Spears continued to send tens of thousands of dollars. A PI on the case says it was a case of obsession fueled by greed.  (Source: KATU.com)
Greed is not a good thing, as one woman's story shows

With 80 percent of Americans online, the internet has become the cityscape of the twenty-first century, and with it the good, the bad, and the unsavory.  Criminals, in increasing numbers, are flocking to the online world as a new source of opportunity crime, the modern version of the pickpocket, praying on those less tech savvy.  With the majority of Americans still somewhat befuddled by computer security, internet crime is a lucrative business.

However, in the world of con-artists and the conned, few stories stand out like that of Janella Spears.

Virtually all internet users have at one time or another received a desperate, if somewhat grammatically flawed plea from the "President of Nigeria" or possibly a banker in Bosnia.  The story varies slightly -- a long lost relative or government official in a war torn country needs your help, but the ends are always the same -- they need your account information to wire money into it, or they need you to wire money to them before they supposedly send you a bigger payday.

While most delete these malicious missives, Mrs. Spears fell for it hook, line, and sinker.  Mrs. Spears insists, though that she's no easy mark -- she's an active registered nurse, CPR trainer, and reverend who has married many couples.  She's even fluent in sign-language, which she uses to communicate with her husband.

Mrs. Spears, though, lost nearly $400,000 USD to the "Nigeria scam" .  When she received the first email, she read that she could receive $20M USD that had belonged to her grandfather.  She insists she would not have believed it, if not for the fact that she had lost track with her grandfather over the years.  She states, "So that's what got me to believe it."

The party asked her to send $100 and she complied.  Then they said there were problems, and they needed more money, but she might get more.  They worked up elaborate stories about how President Bush and FBI Director "Robert Muller" were in on the plans.  They sent her "official" documents and certificates from the Bank of Nigeria and even from the United Nations.

The scammers instructed Mrs. Spears to send $8,300 more, telling her that her reward would rise to $26.6M USD.  She complied.  Many letters followed, each promising more money than the last -- if she would only send a bit more money.  And every time she complied.  Many of the letters were rife with typos, and yet she continued to send in the money, in a case of obsession fueled by greed.

Over the course of the scam she received letters from the President of Nigeria, FBI Director Mueller, and President Bush.  They gave her dire warnings -- if she didn't continue sending the money, it could fall into terrorist hands.  Of course, all the letters were entirely fake.

In the end, Mrs. Spears wiped her husband's bank account dry, mortgaged the house they owned, and took out a lien on their car to finance the payments.  Despite pleas from law enforcement officials, her family and bank officials who told her it was a scam, she sent tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments over the course of two years.  In the end she had lost $400,000 USD, virtually everything she had.

She says it was the perpetual promise that the next payment would lead to the final payoff that kept her going.  It became an obsession.

A seasoned undercover investigator who worked on the case says that Mrs. Spears was blinded by greed.  He says the scam was the worst he's ever seen.  However, he says he's seen others, driven by greed, fall victim to the scam, hoping against common sense for a big payoff.

As for Mrs. Spears, she went public with her story, as she says it serves as a warning to others.  However, in the end, like most outrageous crime stories, it could have been easily prevented if people exercise a bit more common sense.



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Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 8:55:40 AM , Rating: 5
She deserved it, what a moron.




RE: Just Wow
By FITCamaro on 11/18/2008 9:06:53 AM , Rating: 5
Agreed. If you're stupid enough to give it to them, I feel no pity for you.


RE: Just Wow
By wordsworm on 11/18/2008 9:22:42 AM , Rating: 5
I used to do telemarketing.

Ring ring, "Hello."

"Hi, my name is (insert name here), I'm calling in reference to credit cards."

"Oh, I never give my credit card over the phone."

"That's great ma'am/sir. Now, get a piece of paper so that you can write down my badge number, phone number, and name. Thank-you. You know, there are a lot of scammers out there ma'am/sir, and they're ripping poor people off on their credit cards, it's terrible."

"Yes, I know, it's terrible."

"Well, that's why you need to pay for credit card insurance. What is your credit card number ma'am/sir?"

"Oh, hang on... let me get it."

I made a ton of cash for about two weeks before my conscience overrode my desire to make money ($1400 a week is a great deal of money to give up, for me, but I just couldn't handle it). Of course, all American credit cards are required to have insurance automatically given to them. Unfortunately, many Americans don't know any better, and their hyper-paranoia makes them an easy target.

In any case, it's pretty easy to laugh it off to see someone get roped in and lose 400k. But I'm pretty sure if I called your mama and ripped her off of a few hundred when she's barely making it on her pension, you'd be blaming the scammer, and not the scammee.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 9:32:10 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
In any case, it's pretty easy to laugh it off to see someone get roped in and lose 400k. But I'm pretty sure if I called your mama and ripped her off of a few hundred when she's barely making it on her pension, you'd be blaming the scammer, and not the scammee.


Nah, I'd laugh at her and probably tell her she was an idiot. I figure she would probably do the same to me.


RE: Just Wow
By YoshoMasaki on 11/18/2008 1:05:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nah, I'd laugh at her and probably tell her she was an idiot. I figure she would probably do the same to me.
Exactly! Thank you! The fallacy that anything and everything goes as long as it is "me or mine" is so hypocritical it makes my eyes want to bleed. That's the reason we're in this whole financial crisis - greed and hypocrisy. "You and yours" are not automatically the victim in all situations, people. Get over it!


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:07:44 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, I agree. I was complaining about medicare and social security to my mother one day and the general self entitlement in this country. I went on to say that I want them to drop all that crap and put more into education. She then said, wait, we will be retiring soon. I then went on to tell her eventually I would end up being eligible for it, doesn't mean I'm entitled to it.

Hypocrisy runs rampant in this country. It is that "but I want mine" mentality. It is like they regress to children when they think they are entitled to something. I don't deserve hand outs, neither does anyone else. If I do something stupid, my fault, not someone else's.


RE: Just Wow
By Oregonian2 on 11/19/2008 1:50:05 AM , Rating: 5
Although those programs are actually run as pay-as-you-go ones there is some validity I think to someone saying that they paid $200,000 into medicare and social security over their working lifetimes and so they are entitled to receive some of that back.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/08, Rating: -1
RE: Just Wow
By Oregonian2 on 11/19/2008 6:58:35 PM , Rating: 2
You also didn't read what I wrote. It's still a good valid statement even if it's blowing in the wind.


RE: Just Wow
By Jaybus on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By murphyslabrat on 11/18/08, Rating: -1
RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:03:22 AM , Rating: 5
There's a pretty big distinction between the two. This woman was tricked because she was greedy and stupid. She made the decision to send her money, because she thought that it would lead to more easy money.

The woman in your scenario made no such choice.


RE: Just Wow
By afkrotch on 11/18/2008 11:42:43 AM , Rating: 5
Stupid greedy ppl you mean. They kind of fit together with the thieves. If they weren't greedy and were still stupid, odds are high, they wouldn't fall for the scam.

These scams aren't targeting physical aspects of a person. They are targeting their intelligence level and values. Quite different from a 220 lbs man attacking a 120 lbs woman.

If the 220 lbs man came over to the woman and pulled the same type of scam, but instead of on a computer, he did it irl, then I'd say she deserved it.

What happened to listening to the old phrase of "if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is." I must have heard this phrase like a hundred times this year and thousands of times during my life.


RE: Just Wow
By Suntan on 11/18/2008 1:39:47 PM , Rating: 5
Maybe if the 220 lb man had a sign on his car door that said, "throw purse thru open passenger window and I'll put $20 in it."

Your analogy isn't the same thing as the topic at hand.

-Suntan


RE: Just Wow
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 11/21/2008 4:23:07 PM , Rating: 1
What if it was a 215 lb man and a 125 lb woman... would that change everything???


RE: Just Wow
By dosun on 11/18/2008 4:03:52 PM , Rating: 5
Did you miss this part in the article?
quote:
Despite pleas from law enforcement officials, her family and bank officials who told her it was a scam, she sent tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments over the course of two years.


If she had sent money only once, I'd be some of us would feel pity for her. This lady sent money multiple times over the course of a couple years, even after multiple people told her it was a scam. Now her husband's retirement account is empty because of her stupidity. As the old saying goes "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


RE: Just Wow
By Indianapolis on 11/18/2008 11:51:13 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
As the old saying goes "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


I believe the correct saying is:

"Fool me once, shame...shame on...you. Fool me—can't get fooled again!"

From what I understand, it comes from Texas. Or maybe Tennessee.


RE: Just Wow
By FITCamaro on 11/18/2008 12:06:09 PM , Rating: 2
My parents don't have a few thousands dollars to give away much less a few hundred thousand.

My mom I'd never have to worry about anyway. My dad's another story but even he's not that stupid.


RE: Just Wow
By Samus on 11/19/2008 2:53:25 AM , Rating: 3
My friend worked telemarketing for a few weeks selling something legitimate...newspapers. He hated it. He's a bartender now, putting his people skills to good use: spreading happiness through alcohol.


RE: Just Wow
By theapparition on 11/18/2008 11:29:01 AM , Rating: 5
And just think.......people like this can also legally vote.

She should be posterchild for having some sort of intelligence test before being able to elect our leaders.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 11:40:02 AM , Rating: 5
Now we know why we end up with a Republican or Democrat every damn election no matter what, even though they both usually suck terribly.


RE: Just Wow
By theapparition on 11/18/2008 2:13:14 PM , Rating: 5
Amen to that.

I really tried to like either of the canidates we had this year, unfortunately, it usually ends up voting for the one you think won't do the most harm.

Both parties and thier campaigns should be ashamed for the lack of facts and mis-information. However, the ends justify the means, so they think.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:25:26 PM , Rating: 3
Ron Paul 2012? Please?


RE: Just Wow
By Spivonious on 11/18/2008 4:16:22 PM , Rating: 2
I think that if he had switched over to the Lib. party after the primaries, that he would have gotten a lot of votes. Not enough to win, but enough to make it on to the news.


RE: Just Wow
By retrospooty on 11/18/2008 9:08:53 AM , Rating: 3
I like the comment from here... "Spears insists, though that she's no easy mark -- she's an active registered nurse, CPR trainer, and reverend "

LOL - reverend=gullible to the highest possible extent.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 9:29:18 AM , Rating: 2
That's true, if you are so gullible that you fall for religion, chances are you will fall for anything.

A magic man floats around and made everything. He watches you all the time, but gets mad when you break the rules he knew you would break in the first place. He gets tired and has to rest a day after making everything? WHAT!?? He supposedly made everything, but they show him making things in the wrong order to what has been scientifically shown to be the correct order. He condones slavery, human sacrifice, beating women and children through words and actions, but condemns things like eating ham? Just amazing.


RE: Just Wow
By jarman on 11/18/2008 10:25:15 AM , Rating: 4
Wow, no bias there...


RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:04:39 AM , Rating: 5
Bias? What, now everyone is required to be neutral in all matters of opinion?


RE: Just Wow
By rcc on 11/18/2008 11:08:10 AM , Rating: 5
The new creed is that it's only a bias if you disagree with me.


RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:09:26 AM , Rating: 3
But the point is that "bias" isn't a negative, unless you're in a position hat requires objectivity. Most people have opinions, that's ok.


RE: Just Wow
By rcc on 11/18/2008 3:04:42 PM , Rating: 3
You are correct, it's not a negative. But that's the way people use it now. They think a bias is simply something that they don't agree with.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 3:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
It's true, I work for Big Atheist. I own a ham and anti-religious paraphernalia store, so I make out like a bandit if everyone joins my side.

The art of sarcasm, so fun.


RE: Just Wow
By EidolWays on 11/18/2008 10:38:19 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
That's true, if you are so gullible that you fall for religion, chances are you will fall for anything.

I'll probably regret this, as this is the Internet, after all. Flame wars are the 'Net's normal state. But I at least feel the need to try to set the record straight.

quote:
A magic man floats around and made everything. He watches you all the time, but gets mad when you break the rules he knew you would break in the first place.

By your logic, all rules that the rulemakers knew would be broken should not have been made. Parents? Government? Laws and rules are made precisely because the things the laws and rules speak against have been done in the past or are entirely expected to be done. If something would never be attempted, there would never be a law. The point of a law or rule is to attach a consequence to an expected action so that there is an associated cost. In this way, the group at which the rule or law is targeted is less likely to engage in even more dangerous behavior and most will not attempt it at all. Essentially, we have speeding laws which many people break by going a bit over. But the number of people who go 30 over the limit is at least reduced.

quote:
He gets tired and has to rest a day after making everything?
Please explain how you derive from "day of rest" that God was, in fact, tired or unable to continue working without a day to do nothing. I don't remember a mention of it anywhere in the text. Though I dunno about you, but after making the universe, I think He'd have a right to be tired, no? :)

quote:
He supposedly made everything, but they show him making things in the wrong order to what has been scientifically shown to be the correct order.
If you take evolutionary theory as the baseline, then yes. The Bible obviously wasn't written with such a view in mind. This gets back to the whole evolution vs. religion debate that sets more forums aflame on the Internet than I care to count, and I am NOT trying to start a science vs. religion debate here. But obviously whichever you accept as truth, the Bible or evolution, doubt is cast upon the literal account of the other.

quote:
He condones slavery, human sacrifice, beating women and children through words and actions, but condemns things like eating ham?

Please provide verses or references wherein slavery and human sacrifice are condoned or sanctioned. Regarding beating women, there is no such command to beat or denigrate them. For beating children? If you consider spanking to be beating, then perhaps. But never is humiliation or denigration condoned.

Also, the rule against ham was made for the protection of the people. Keep in mind that pork can contain parasites that, if not killed by proper cooking, can be quite painful or even lethal. As such, several millennia ago, it would have been difficult to ensure that the meat had been properly cooked. Thus, ham was ruled out as a food source simply to protect the people.


RE: Just Wow
By retrospooty on 11/18/2008 10:47:58 AM , Rating: 2
MAybe he should have put it more hte way I would put it...

To have fallen for religion in the pre-modern age is understandable... But now that science has proven the world is 4.5 billion years old and we evolved from earlier lifeforms, if you still believe some "god" zapped us into being 6000 years ago you are quite the moron.

With that said, I am not "un-religious". I believe there is a higher order to the universe than anything mankind currently understands... But if you believe in the western religions (Christian/Judaism/Islam) you are one tree short of a hammock.


RE: Just Wow
By EidolWays on 11/18/2008 10:55:34 AM , Rating: 3
I must admit that it bothers me that any and all other accomplishments seem to be discounted in your assertion. So no matter what feats of intelligence one achieves, whether academic or personal, a belief in a "western religion" automatically reduces you to a moron?


RE: Just Wow
By Frank M on 11/18/2008 11:06:16 AM , Rating: 5
How do you feel about an adult who believes in the Tooth Fairy?


RE: Just Wow
By spread on 11/18/2008 12:16:37 PM , Rating: 5
Barrister Frank,

I am the Nigerian Tooth Fairy, my name is Mojumba. I was looking through our accounts and I saw that we owe you $20,000 for services not rendered. The money is locked at the National Nigeria Bank. I require $500 for fees to the bank. Please send $500 and your account so we can wire the money to you.

Please send now. Time is urgent!

Sincerely,
Mojumba
Tooth Fairy


RE: Just Wow
By Lifted on 11/18/2008 1:06:16 PM , Rating: 5
Dear Mojumba,

I was about to send you the money and my account details until I noticed your previous correspondence is free of the numerous typos I have seen when dealing with other Nigerian bankers who I am in the process of helping to recover funds. This leads me to believe you are merely a native English speaker pretending to be a Nigerian banker for the sole purpose of scamming me. Get a life, moran!

Regards,
GWB


RE: Just Wow
By teko on 11/18/2008 2:52:26 PM , Rating: 4
Dear GWB,

We, Nigerian Tooth Fairies, have now been using the Fiery Fox web browser. It has a great spell checking feature.

Please do not worry; trust my associate, Mojumba. He is very well trusted, and the fairest among all tooth fairies in Nigeria. Also, your new president, Obama, is a close brother of ours. You can put your trust in us.

We have double-checked your account with the National Nigeria Bank. We believe we can also claim for additional interests, up to $25,000. However, for this, we will need an extra $1,250 for additional fees.

Please send us the money, so we can wire the money to you.

With regards,
Majumbo
Mojumba & Majumbo Tooth Fairy Association


RE: Just Wow
By stirfry213 on 11/18/2008 1:21:15 PM , Rating: 2
Thats not nearly convincing enough without the typos, the least you could have done is mispelled his name!


RE: Just Wow
By retrospooty on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/18/2008 10:56:00 AM , Rating: 3
Strawmanning the arguement up to generalize almost half the world's population by equivocating fundamental Christianity/Judaism/Islam to all forms and flavors thereof is unreasonable.

I'm normally on the same page as you, spooty, and I'm not defending any particular faith here, but let's be reasonable - not all of these folks really believe that we were zapped into being 6,000 years ago.

We've all had the chance to speak our minds on the matter, so let's all let this thread die before it goes too far south.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 4:18:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
not all of these folks really believe that we were zapped into being 6,000 years ago.
Would you prefer dropped like it was hot?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By sld on 11/18/2008 2:18:49 PM , Rating: 2
"Science has proven"?

You read a lot of science articles on tech sites like Dailytech, right?

And you don't exhibit the same level of healthy scepticism towards the theory of evolution as you do (or at least I hope you do) experimental science.

You may want to brush up your science by reading up a little on Information Theory, Probability Theory, Nucleotide hydrolysis AND the full detail of the Miller-Urey Experiment.

Better to talk about science when we actually have the knowledge to back it up, ain't that right?


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 4:21:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Better to talk about science when we actually have the knowledge to back it up, ain't that right?
Well, since you put it that way, I better get on to church this Sunday.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 11:15:15 AM , Rating: 4
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/05/slavery.htm...

Enjoy that. Especially love this gem, "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.".

http://www.thoughtzone.net/more-misogyny-from-the-...

Do you honestly follow this garbage?

http://www.openbible.info/topics/human_sacrifice

Nothing like bible condoned sacrifice.

http://www.contenderministries.org/articles/christ...

He made them, yet he hates them, makes you wonder why he keeps making them? Or why it occurs at times in nature on it's own? Or why the brains of homosexuals are actually built more like the opposite sex?

As for your other silliness, to have complete power to create as desired, yet you create something that will inherently break your laws and you know it would be masochistic at best. Omnipotence would mean you already know everything that will happen. He knows all this, yet he just does it anyway?

If you question evolution beyond the specifics, I wonder about your general intelligence or lack there of. Of course I am talking about the general idea, as they can show that happens, they just can't prove every last bit of it, cause they have yet to reproduce the beginning factors (come on LHC, come back up!).

I believe that people are better than "god". I believe you are better than this silly "god". Your god thinks you are so stupid that you can't be told that pork can contain parasites if not cooked and stored properly? Religion is the reason ignorance has been propagated so long and I would love to see it stop.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just say why? Why does he not protect from the many other problems that can happen? Chicken can cause issues, so can fish. Many plants and things of that nature can cause serious issues, why no warnings?

It was added by some people that saw that pork was killing people, so they threw it in there cause they didn't know the real cause. A "god" would have known the real cause, cause he would have made it exist.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 12:13:06 PM , Rating: 2
What I find funny with all of this is that men blame easily the bible for many things yet the bible was written by men, so what gives?

What about human sacrifice in the bible, your own government sends thousands of soldiers everywhere knowing perfectly well some will die and yet no complains, the army itself is about sacrificing yourself for someone else.

"Religion is the reason ignorance has been propagated so long and I would love to see it stop."
You're so incorrect... many of discoveries man made were done by religious people, actually for a long time it was the church that stored and maintained works from "scientists", and let's not even mention the fact that religion served has common point between men and men is much less likely to make war with someone he shares something than with a complete stranger.


RE: Just Wow
By spread on 11/18/2008 12:18:06 PM , Rating: 1
Sources please.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 12:38:13 PM , Rating: 1
He has none, like most religious proofs, not a bit of evidence.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 4:42:03 PM , Rating: 2
lmao cause now if I defend something that obviously makes me one of them...

Evidence of what that religious people made many discoveries? go look into wikipedia or something I'm not your teacher... Mendel is the only name you'll get from me and there are many others.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 4:53:16 PM , Rating: 1
The burden of proof is on the presenter of a belief. I never said you believe it, you are trying to justify it one way or another, so in turn, your lack of proof will be attacked. If they had real proof of god, it would have made top headlines every other week, but they don't.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/19/2008 8:23:57 AM , Rating: 2
And didn't I point you Mendel... what other proof you want that religious people made discoveries.

Anti-matter was believed to exist long before being "seen", the same with the big bang which can only be an hypothesis and so on, science has long gone beyond the "you have to see it".


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:13:51 AM , Rating: 1
You don't understand the scientific method, please just stop. They theorized anti-matter because of other things that linked to it. Granted I'm not a cosmologist or physicist, so I will not sit here and pretend I can explain it as clearly, but they had nukes before they understood how they worked because they knew that the thing was there, they just couldn't explain it at the time. The point is they have proof for the thing existing, they just can't properly view or prove it at the time.

Science always has and always will be the seeking of truth, not the ultimate knowing.

Einstein was religious, Darwin was religious, that wasn't the proof we were looking for.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/20/2008 8:08:25 PM , Rating: 2
"They theorized anti-matter because of other things that linked to it."
No it came from a mathematical equation that just like x^2 could have 2 possible solutions a positive and a negative, at the time the solution was always positive, there was nothing liked to it besides mathematics.

"The point is they have proof for the thing existing, they just can't properly view or prove it at the time."
So what gives do they have the proof or not ?...

"Einstein was religious, Darwin was religious, that wasn't the proof we were looking for."
Really I mean your whole idea turns around how religious people are stupid and what not, I don't see why is it hard to you to accept that people can be religious and not brain dead...


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 12:35:16 PM , Rating: 2
Probably because they ran everything. If they never existed, it would have happened, most likely much smoother with less "witch burnings" if you will. You make a bunch of random assumptions with what you are saying here.

You compare men to a god? This god is supposed to be omnipotent and follow the laws he set for us. Even better, we were supposedly made in his image, which means he is an ass to boot.

"He" clearly condones this behavior, so would you expect any less? Actions speak louder than words my friend. Not that I believe any of this garbage, but if you wanted to make a book about yourself with all the rules someone has to follow and you happened to be omnipotent, would you allow it to be altered or written incorrectly? Written by men is no excuse when it is the "word of god".

If you assume part of it is wrong, how do you decide which parts? The parts you don't like? Man wrote it, yet you follow it? You are preaching to the choir on it being written by men, it was written years after Jesus lived and no direct witnesses wrote the bible. Even better, it was written in Greek at the time, but they spoke Aramaic at the time of Jesus.

It is a facade, the sooner everyone wakes up and realizes that is the sooner we can finally rid our lives of superstition, biblical teachings, backwards beliefs, etc. etc. and start really pushing science and logic. Most religious people aren't completely dumb, they are just gullible or they have been conditioned to shut off logic whenever religion comes up.

Two things that should be talked about, religion and politics are the two things they tell you not to talk about, fitting. The holes in each can be seen by any bit of logic, but not talking about them lets them progress on.


RE: Just Wow
By Ringold on 11/18/2008 2:27:40 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
If they never existed, it would have happened, most likely much smoother with less "witch burnings" if you will.


quote:
It is a facade, the sooner everyone wakes up and realizes that is the sooner we can finally rid our lives of superstition, biblical teachings, backwards beliefs, etc. etc. and start really pushing science and logic.


The one thing I would point out is that religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or the varied religions that preceded them, gave structure to a young civilization that previously knew what amounted to gang warfare, right? And even in our nomadic time, I thought we've found evidence of early spiritualism. The moral codes advanced by religion are useful and common sense in a large community. Don't steal. Don't attack people unprovoked. Don't lie. These things created what could be called social capital, or a type of economic advantage that is beyond labor skills and capital equipment. This social capital, which arises from stability, harmony, trust among individuals, etc, is why bureaucratic India manages to thrive despite its government bottlenecks. An African country may not have as rigid a government, but they don't prosper because people run around with AK-47s instead of morals.

Perhaps religion doesn't always make sense, but I'm not aware of anywhere that managed to do well without it. Religion isn't completely without value, either present or historical.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 3:00:01 PM , Rating: 2
It has been shown in tribes with no real "religion" to speak of, morals are built into them. They were asked why they don't steal another mans things, almost all of them responded that they did not want to be exiled or shunned by their fellow tribe members. Not a religious deity or silly book has that kind of control.

This I promise, if people who committed crimes were socially shunned and treated as trash or just exiled, crime would drop more than instituting religion. The problem is people who commit crime in this country are revered, ogled and idolized. People watch their every move, they become famous. The bigger the crime, the bigger the prize when they get caught.

Africa's problem is they never have fought for anything. They were taken advantage of by damn near everyone, including their own people. Many people of Europe, the Middle East, America all took advantage of Africa. I haven't looked, but I'm sure some of the Asian countries got in on it as well.

It is animal nature to try to dominate the weak, especially when you throw that pack mentality that is a dominating country in the mix.

I would have to see quite a bit more proof that religion did anything that could be called "good" before I change any of my statements. Even then, more bad than good.


RE: Just Wow
By Myg on 11/21/2008 7:13:00 PM , Rating: 2
Ever tried praying? If you do it genuinely, it may suprise you.

Otherwise; you lot in the US (assume your there) will always suffer this problem of interpretations/etc..

Its just built into your nation (Founding fathers were mainly Protestants), you can't escape it with Atheism, acting like you don't care etc; you can only deal with it...

The writers of the Bible didn't and don't take the Old testament literally.


RE: Just Wow
By v3rt1g0 on 11/24/2008 12:13:09 PM , Rating: 2
> The writers of the Bible didn't and don't take the Old testament literally.

Oh, ho, ho! You are quite mistaken.
Have you spoken with any bible historians? The old testament is the 'inspired word of god' according to them. You really think sheep herders over two thousand years ago knew any better? Really?


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 5:09:11 PM , Rating: 2
"If they never existed, it would have happened"
and later by the same fellow
"You make a bunch of random assumptions with what you are saying here."
I can not stop laughing...

"would you allow it to be altered or written incorrectly"
Why not, god gifted men with freedom of choice, if god had now to correct the bible then he would have a lot of work knowing that the meaning of words keep changing...

"Man wrote it, yet you follow it?"
I don't follow anything, what I'm trying to tell you is that men made the bible, and if it wasn't the bible it would be something else.

"Most religious people aren't completely dumb, they are just gullible"
How nice... you just badmouthed most people that live on this planet and that believe in some kind of superior "entity" be it the Christ or not... you're just amazing you should do your own sect, maybe you already did and you're trying to get me into it, try harder next time dude.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:35:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why not, god gifted men with freedom of choice, if god had now to correct the bible then he would have a lot of work knowing that the meaning of words keep changing...


So, by your own admittance, the entire bible could be wrong and maybe he wanted you to do things completely different? For all you know one of the 7 deadly sins was clog dancing and they changed them. Even better, god has a lot of work? Does he get sleepy or exhausted and need a breather to blink things into existence?

My own sect of what? Atheism? The lack of belief isn't really a belief at all, it is the lack there of.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/19/2008 8:26:55 AM , Rating: 3
You are here bashing religions and trying to rely people to your cause, not much different than a sect.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:18:00 AM , Rating: 2
So, do I take it that you agree with my statement? Cause it is clear you have no real counter argument. In the end I bash believing in anything with no real proof or logical steps even leading up to the idea. That's like me saying fairies are the reason gravity exists, clearly there is no reason to believe this and many people would demolish this belief.

Granted we still don't know 100% how gravity works, but would it make sense to you for us to jump to such a mystical and silly conclusion over common sense?


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/20/2008 7:52:11 PM , Rating: 2
And you are free to think that fairies do that, you know freedom of thought is something that not even your government can stop you from, and then there's this other thing about respecting other believes...

Also common sense and science don't go hand in hand very often they go on opposite direction.


RE: Just Wow
By BikeDude on 11/18/2008 12:47:27 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
many of discoveries man made were done by religious people


In a sense... Yes. E.g. Darwin was religious at first. But after spending the best part of his life studying all the evidence, he eventually became an atheist.

quote:
it was the church that stored and maintained works from "scientists"


I have heard no such thing. For the most part, the church have been busy opposing scientists who present theories not backed by the children tales found in the bible. E.g. the Earth is not the center of the world -- that one caused quite a commotion, even though other civilizations knew this fact several thousand years prior to Galilei. Navigating the sea was a problem for those sea captains who agreed with the priests' literal interpretation of the bible at the time. (navigate a globe as if it is a flat surface? That would not have gotten the vikings very far)

The Catholic church wisely chose to accept the theory of evolution. But... Regardless of what you say, one fact remains: The idea of a divine being, is just that, an idea. It is not a theory. The simple truth is that the church of the flying spaghettimonster makes just as much sense as the christian belief system (or the hindu for that matter).

The bible is a tool to govern the stupid part of the population. Since 90% of the population are brain dead, it works quite well. Bush used his personal faith and called 'crusade' before invading Afghanistan. Nice. It still works.

I am not saying that you should not be kind to thy neighbour and not covet his ass. Denouncing any and all deities does not mean you can't have morals of your own.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 12:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
Preach brother, preach! Stuff like this reminds me that other people out there aren't crazy and actually use facts and logic to dictate what they believe and determine truth.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 5:45:59 PM , Rating: 2
"In a sense... Yes. E.g. Darwin was religious at first."
Darwin is just one, there's also Mendel, Boyle, Descartes and many others.

I don't see how by removing religion now the 90% brain dead people would all of the suddenly become smart or whatever, they didn't become brain dead cause of religion and I can bet there are many brain dead people on the atheist side as well.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 4:28:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
many of discoveries man made were done by religious people, actually for a long time it was the church that stored and maintained works from "scientists"
You mean like they did in the Dark Ages?

quote:
and let's not even mention the fact that religion served has common point between men and men is much less likely to make war with someone he shares something than with a complete stranger.
Kind of like how Muslims and Christians get along.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/18/2008 5:49:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Kind of like how Muslims and Christians get along.

And what do Muslims and Christians share? ya they are both religious but it's not the same religion you know that don't you.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 7:11:14 PM , Rating: 2
Well, if he was intending his comment to be that general then I "share" many things with many people also. Like farting or not washing my hands after I take a piss.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 8:03:17 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that Islam was derived from Christianity, right? Jesus is quoted many times in the Koran. If you can't see the similarities between Islam, Judaism and Christianity, you sir are blind. They are derivatives of each other, they share the same god for Pete's sake.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/19/2008 8:46:10 AM , Rating: 2
Some similarities and many differences... people that follow the same religion will always share more points in common that people who don't.
Do you realize that your country is only a country cause most of its people decided at one point to follow the same laws, same convictions and what not, regardless of the fact that the US was colonized by the English and others it still fought them back.

And Christianity itself borrowed a lot from other religions, what does it matter it's not cause we all speak that all of the suddenly I'll identify myself with any of you.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:21:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some similarities and many differences... people that follow the same religion will always share more points in common that people who don't.


So you admit they are basically the same damn thing?

You are literally just ranting at this point, really leading nowhere. Clearly you are in the classic religious position which is "I don't have an argument, so I will rant about nothing to avoid using logic and destroy my beliefs". Just admit you believe in something with no proof or logical backing and I am fine with you believing in anything, just don't look at people funny when they don't follow you're cult.


RE: Just Wow
By Strunf on 11/20/2008 7:44:10 PM , Rating: 2
Are you just stupid or what ? Diamonds and graphite are made exactly of the same matter yet they are different, if you think not I'll gladly exchange all the graphite I have against your diamonds.


RE: Just Wow
By fcx56 on 11/18/2008 1:59:54 PM , Rating: 3
While I tend to agree with you, just to play the devil's advocate, when I read this part of your post:
quote:
Your god thinks you are so stupid that you can't be told that pork can contain parasites if not cooked and stored properly?

The first thing I thought of was that we just read an article about Janella Spears, a grown woman so stupid that she would place a lien on her car and liquidate every valuable in her and her deaf husband's possession to pay close to a half of a million dollars to people from a country she's never been to, who she's never met, who somehow know her grandfather and possess his $20M+ inheritance for her thousands of miles away even though they speak little or no english, and wait, the Presidents of two seperate countries were involved! and the FBI! all over her grandfather!........ hmmm, let's just let this one digest.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:12:19 PM , Rating: 2
Ha, truly great. But I mean the general level of intelligence. On top of that, notice how she uses her religion and nursing as a means to somehow prove she isn't easily fooled? Talk about irony. The person who got fooled by some guy is the same person that is a reverend at church and fools people every day to believe in a magic man and give them money. Let that digest as well, ha.


RE: Just Wow
By sld on 11/18/2008 2:20:28 PM , Rating: 2
Dude..

God didn't institute human sacrifice, us modern day humans did. Heard of something called abortion ?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:31:03 PM , Rating: 2
Please just die. Child up until about 1 year old has the intelligence and awareness of a house plant. Even past that it isn't much to write home about. Science trumps you every time, stop using religion to try to sculpt someones view of things. Logic dictates a person is not a person until they are self aware, babies don't get that joy till around 1-2.

Also, yes, he encourages and advocates human sacrifice throughout the bible. You are a fucking retard, you don't read and you don't even understand what human sacrifice is.


RE: Just Wow
By Spivonious on 11/18/2008 4:26:42 PM , Rating: 3
WTF? Have you ever spent any time with a baby? Please stay away from children.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 4:49:45 PM , Rating: 1
It is a fact you idiot, basing your belief on "spending time" with something does not trump scientific evidence.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:06:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
WTF? Have you ever spent any time with a baby? Please stay away from children.
If you don't understand, just ask. Too many people don't ask questions and just form opinions with no knowledge whatsoever.


RE: Just Wow
By JediJeb on 11/18/2008 4:49:04 PM , Rating: 1
If you can show me one verse in the Bible where God actually had someone commit human sacrifice and said it was good then I will believe you. But I know there is no place where God condones one person killing another person as a sacrafice.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:04:08 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.ht...

There are multiple, but here is a fun one.

In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me."

Also too good to pass up, this one is a classic. Remember, "god" is omnipotent, so he knew who it would be before he did.

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

http://www.exposingchristianity.com/Human%20Sacrif...

Enjoy that as well.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:09:49 PM , Rating: 1
Gzus,
Few religious people actually read and study their "holy" books. They can't even get their own religion straight! LOL! Holy is not even the correct translation for the Christian folks as an example.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:26:01 PM , Rating: 2
Here is another fun one, the Jesus fish that they put on the back of their cars was originally found on caves from a little before 3000BC. It was a cave dwelling people that believed in an alien fish god and that was their symbol for it. Every time I see one of those fish, I giggle cause they don't know their own religion's history.

Or how about the "Feed a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime" they stole from Confucius?


RE: Just Wow
By ggordonliddy on 11/18/2008 8:27:40 PM , Rating: 3
> In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every
> first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man
> and beast, for it belongs to me."

"Consecrate" does not mean to give up for human sacrifice.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 9:06:07 PM , Rating: 2
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

Please read the definition of sacrifice, doesn't always mean kill, but does mean give to a deity as an offering. How can you not understand this?


RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/19/2008 11:16:25 AM , Rating: 2
Logic doesn't dictate such definitions. You should brush up on your Euclid. After that, you might try reading some Peter Kreeft, who gives an exhaustive logical treatment to this definition in 'The Unaborted Socrates'.

By the way, my daughter was speaking in complete sentences at 10 months.

It is ironic that in the same post, you swear, wish someone would die, and then appeal to what you view as logic.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 11:27:11 AM , Rating: 2
So, logic doesn't dictated that what differentiates us from other animals is self awareness and intelligence through logical reasoning?

I also believe I said ABOUT 1 year old, there is variances of course between people and their exact brain development, but no one can deny that a baby is nowhere near formed enough to be called aware in the womb. This is clear fact as the neuron paths in those parts of the brain aren't even complete at this time.

Also, parrots can speak complete sentences. Like most parents, I have a feeling you are exaggerating your child's abilities or have a limited understanding of them. When you publish any sort of research paper on it or your child is in a research study, let me know.


RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/19/2008 11:43:27 AM , Rating: 2
> So, logic doesn't dictated that what differentiates us from other animals is self awareness and intelligence through logical reasoning?

No, it doesn't. There is no solid definition that defines when life begins. How you define life may not be the same as how I define it - Kreeft addresses the entire issue ad nauseam. If your read Euclid's Elements, you'll find that many of the terms like point & line are abstracted, and can be defined however you like. Logic often does not define.

> Also, parrots can speak complete sentences. Like most parents, I have a feeling you are exaggerating your child's abilities or have a limited understanding of them. When you publish any sort of research paper on it or your child is in a research study, let me know.

From logic to feelings, eh? And to counter your feelings on the issue, you've decided I need to publish a research paper? I'll publish a paper when you're secure enough to make a point without resorting to personal attacks.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 12:44:42 PM , Rating: 2
Didn't realize saying you exaggerate like all parents do when referencing their children was a personal attack. Touchy much? Unfortunately I have to go off the gut feeling which is logically based in that commonly parents will rave over their children to the point of exaggerating or lying about it. You based your child putting sentences together at 10 months as being mentally developed. Unless you checked brain activity during this, you have no real proof to counter the studies that show brain growth and development in children.

Also, didn't say when life begins, just said when reasoning and self awareness begins. Life can be used for damn near anything, plants are alive and people kill and eat them without issue. Same goes for many animals. As note, I have no problem with either, so please don't bring it up.

Babies, as stated, are really not cognitive until around 1 year of age. The force behind this is the brain has not completed forming until then. If the brain hasn't formed, then the child has none of the things associated with that portion of the unformed brain and no amount of dreaming or wishing will change that.


RE: Just Wow
By Headfoot on 11/19/2008 12:04:49 PM , Rating: 2
Shut the fuck up.

You make athiests look like a bunch of angsty teenagers that fly off the handle when anyone disagrees with them.

You are a terrible representative of a group that is about logic. You digress to name calling and overt emotion when your very thesis depends on logic and distancing yourself from emotion.

Furthermore, Athesim has nothing do to at all whatsoever with Nigerian bankers.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 12:47:48 PM , Rating: 2
Says the guy that flies off the handle and swears when something is said that he doesn't like?

quote:
You are a terrible representative of a group that is about logic. You digress to name calling and overt emotion when your very thesis depends on logic and distancing yourself from emotion.


Talk about hypocrisy, have you read your statement yet?


RE: Just Wow
By v3rt1g0 on 11/24/2008 12:16:57 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, grow up.

You are giving fellow atheists, such as myself, a bad name. :/


RE: Just Wow
By Nova08 on 11/19/2008 1:16:33 PM , Rating: 2
You're an idiot.

How the hell is that human sacrifice? Go read a book.


RE: Just Wow
By sld on 11/18/2008 2:25:33 PM , Rating: 2
Your reasoning on omniscience and omnipotence is correct, but if that leads you AWAY from God, then... well, I hope in time to come you will reconsider your train of thought. Love God or hate God, all men will die one day and find themselves accountable before Him.

If the fact is that humans have sinned, then humans are responsible for their own repentance. Those who refuse that responsibility will find eternity a tragedy.

Hmm woops, no science in this post. =)


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:36:19 PM , Rating: 2
You really don't know what you are saying do you? You are a monkey. I gave examples of his lack of love for you. I don't hate god, he doesn't exist. I can't hate something that is non-existent.

Burden of proof is on the presenter, my lack of belief makes sense, because there is no proof showing it does. Meanwhile, they show proof of evolution, sexuality, schizophrenia, depression, mania, psychosis, mental retardation and find the underlying cause of it all, yet you still think half this stuff is a choice.

This is laughable at best, you really have nothing to add to the conversation but silly tidbits that best fit on bible flash cards for your brainwashing. Cookie cutter beliefs for a cookie cutter brain.


RE: Just Wow
By JediJeb on 11/18/2008 5:32:57 PM , Rating: 2
I have seen proof of a species changing over time but never any cross species proof. When someone can show me evidence of exactly how the first creatures came to be then I will believe evolution. The theory is that a big mass of bacteria all of a sudden came together and some cells decided to become liver cells, some to become brain cells, some to become skin cells, ect, ect. For that to happen then these cells had to have intelligence within them to know what to become, otherwise you would have liver and brain cells together in the wrong place.

You say there is no evidence of the Bible account of creation, but show me the hard evidence of exactly how a soup of amino acids formed into cells then the cells formed into more complex organisms then I will believe the Evolutionist account. No matter which path you believe it takes faith, either faith in God or faith in Luck. And how much Luck would it take for the first complex organism to form, then how much Luck does it take for a second one to form that is close enough genetically to the first that they can breed, and happen within the lifespan of the first?

As for the order of creation not being the same as evolution, seems they are very close. Both accounts have life starting in the sea, then the amphibians/reptiles( creeping/crawling things), then the birds, then the mammals, then humans.

As for the creation of the universe, same thing. First there was nothing, then there was light( sorta sounds like the big bang there). The Earth was without form, then all came together and eventually the land masses moved apart and divided the seas( continental drift from the breakup of the original mega continent). Even in the Bible it says the sun was created before the Moon, that is the correct order also.

Also the Bible never says the Earth is flat or the center of the Universe, that belief was brought in much later, mostly by Europeans. The Bible when talking about an infinately large distance speaks of the separation of the east from west, not north from south which is a finite distance, which would imply knowledge of the north and south poles 2000+ years before anyone in Europe even though about the earth being spherical.

If faith in God makes a person stupid, then what does faith in Luck make someone?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:43:38 PM , Rating: 2
This joke of a post is how I know you are poorly read. They force evolution in fruit flies, have seen it in bacteria and fossil evidence. They have missing link animals they find all the time, they have a completely time line of human evolution. They are unraveling DNA and will eventually have the answers. Science is the pursuit of truth, not ultimate definition like some people love to believe.

Like I have said before, it is not the burden of proof for atheists to prove anything, it is the burden of the religious to justify their beliefs. Atheism is a lack of belief, which means there is nothing to justify.

As far as creation, I am talking about the order of universe creation, not life. You clearly don't understand the big bang, I would recommend you actually read about it.

Luck? Everything has a set chance to happen, if you have billions of galaxies, quadrillions of stars, the chances of this happening once are quite high. If you had a billion lottery tickets, but your chances were one in one billion and one, those are pretty good chances, don't you agree?


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:17:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Love God or hate God, all men will die one day and find themselves accountable before Him.
This is the top 5 of things I dislike about religion. If you don't fit into one category, you are automatically in the other. Gzus doesn't hate what doesn't exist. That would be like hating the tooth fairy. Who hates the tooth fairy? No one, because it doesn't exist. How can you hate God, when it doesn't exist? Yet you'll say he hates God. LOL!


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 7:46:00 PM , Rating: 2
Sadly true, they think I somehow hate something that doesn't exist. That wouldn't just be stupid, but rather crazy.


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/18/2008 3:43:16 PM , Rating: 3
I probably would have agreed with much of what you said here several years ago, when I was younger. I'm a smart enough guy. I have a decent job, a college degree, and I've somehow managed to avoid sending all my money to a Nigerian e-mail scammer.

Skepticism is healthy and necessary, but these kind of arguments, which childishly oversimplify other people's beliefs, are just caricatures. I guess that some find comfort in believing that religious people are weaker or less intelligent than they are.

A man's understanding of reality needs to be large enough to allow for all of his experiences to make sense within that framework. The fact is that I and many others have had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ, and nothing could ever convince me that my experience was somehow invalid.

These are all very run of the mill criticisms you've cited, and they all have their run of the mill rebuttals. which have their counterarguments, and so forth, ad infinitum. I'm not willing to get into all that. Suffice it to say that many, if not most, religious people have had experiences in their lives that could not be explained away, and needed a larger framework to accomodate that.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 4:00:38 PM , Rating: 2
Believing in religion requires you to make a logical proof to believe it, otherwise you are basing it on magic and superstition, both of which I'm sure you don't really believe in.

The joys of not believing in any religion means I don't have to prove my stances, as they are all grounded in reality. The burden of proof is on the religious to prove it with actual logic and reason, something none of them do.

You call it childishly oversimplified cause you don't agree and you believe in this garbage. You believe that a floating guy that condones slavery, misogyny, human sacrifice and hatred is somehow OK? There is no logical reason to believe in a god, cause there is no proof. I never said that makes them inherently stupid, just less likely to use logic or be gullible, which are character flaws, not really intelligence issues.

I have a feeling you find comfort in denying any of this is true cause it helps you hold on to that belief. Always remember, you believe in something without proof of any sort. You hold science to this unobtainable level of proof, yet religion gets a free pass, I wonder why?

Don't you find it funny the majority of the scientific community is atheist?


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/18/2008 5:38:35 PM , Rating: 3
It's a shell game to ask for logical proof of historical claims. I could use the same arguments to deny the existence of Marie Antionette.

I believe in God primarily because I've experienced the reality of God in my life in way that's more real to me than the desk I sit at each day. Historical proofs, such as the veracity of the Bible, are important but secondary.

Loading your comments with "magic man" and "flying spaghetti monster" type rhetoric is childish no matter how you try and defend it. I visit this site because I'm an IT professional who enjoys reading tech related news. If I have to endure these 8th grade level insults to do so, so be it.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:41:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It's a shell game to ask for logical proof of historical claims.
So I suppose my great grandmother never existed. Her existence is a "historical claim" right? Maybe American slavery was bull$hit too?


RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/19/2008 11:22:37 AM , Rating: 2
Logic is based on axioms. Axioms are things we take for granted - they are things we believe in with no way of proving them.

The entire body of science is based on the pillars of axioms. So, let's drop the self-righteous bs (or at least take it off-site) and let people have different opinions.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 11:38:32 AM , Rating: 2
Right, yet the entire body of science will shoot down an axiom with out at least producing a theory, from there the theory must move to a proof or law. Theories have reasons they exist.

If I told you planets were held together with invisible twine, you would think I was a nut and rightfully so. I would have no legitimate reason to think this, or any evidence to show it. Now, is it possible the universe is held together with some sort of "fabric"? Yes, they have theories for this they are trying to test and make a real case for, the difference is they have evidence and a reason to pursue it.

Religion lacks every single thing needed to even begin to be believed. If things can be explained without it all and the lore that surrounds it, then clearly it isn't needed or true. How someone can believe in one baseless claim like god, but not other ones like Zeus, Care Bears, Superman, The Tick, or anything else is beyond me and seemingly beyond them as well.


RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/19/2008 11:52:27 AM , Rating: 2
So, since religion doesn't give us any thereoms, then it cannot be called an axiom, and even it were, it wouldn't be the same as those of science.

A sort of Aristotlean outlook on axioms - that they must yield theorems.

How would you answer someone who asked you how the uncertainty principle came to be?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 1:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
I would refer you to the observer effect and let you realize why the uncertainty principle exists. I am not a quantum physicist, nor do I claim to be, but come on. At this point you are reaching for straws, either bring up actual proof for religion or concede that there is none.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:38:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I guess that some find comfort in believing that religious people are weaker or less intelligent than they are.
And others simply don't believe in God because there is no proof. Nothing more to it.

quote:
The fact is that I and many others have had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ, and nothing could ever convince me that my experience was somehow invalid.
I was a follower of God. I believed with all of my heart, soul, and mind. I actually read the Bible (cover to cover MANY times) and studied it with others to get more out of it. I tried my damnedest to follow and eventually it wasn't so difficult to do so. What changed? I did.

I grew, experienced, critically thought, and changed some more. My religion did not change, it did not move. And I no longer needed to be constantly reminded that I was not perfect, to do right by my fellow man, and to exercise some restraint. I branched out to Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism and some others. Studied them, asked questions, absorbed what I learned and moved on. I changed, religion did not.

I no longer believe in God. Is it because I think I'm better than those that do? Nope. On the contrary, I no longer see myself being better than anyone. If I believe in anyone, it's in my fellow man. Hopefully, one day he'll believe in himself.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:48:34 PM , Rating: 2
This is a fine example of a man who used his logic and general intelligence to see that what he was told to believe was untrue. This is growing as a people, this is what education and logical/critical thinking brings.

I try to believe in my fellow man, but so many let me down by not using what is in there somewhere, the logic and reasoning that defines people. Sometimes the brainwashed need to be snapped back to reality.


RE: Just Wow
By ggordonliddy on 11/18/2008 8:36:11 PM , Rating: 2
There has to be a higher power that is beyond our comprehension; otherwise, where did the source of matter in the universe come from? I know you're going to ask where God came from. As I said, it is "beyond our comprehension", but obviously things didn't just start with a big bang - where did the matter for that come from?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 9:08:49 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, you are out there. Has to be because something can't be explained? So because we can't 100% explain gravity yet, it is magic made by some gravity god? If your argument is really as silly as this, then where did god come from in the first place? See, works both ways, only one is actually based on logic and understands that they don't currently know everything, but will strive to.


RE: Just Wow
By ggordonliddy on 11/19/2008 1:58:18 AM , Rating: 1
Like I said, of course we cannot comprehend where God came from.

And of course there has to be a higher power that we cannot comprehend, because how else do you explain the creation of the matter which became our universe?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:27:25 AM , Rating: 2
Nice way to try to ignore logic. The bible said you were made in god's image, which means you would share the same logical thought process as him. You deny it cause you are either stupid or brainwashed, I'm leaning towards the latter.

How do you explain where god came from? You don't, cause he doesn't exist, it is a children's story turned into a cult. You are probably the same person who discounts other people's religions and calls Greek and Roman gods mythology while thinking your own god makes more sense. Mind blowing the dilution people will go through to make sure their magic guy is real, but everyone else's is imaginary.

I have a feeling you don't comprehend the sheer number of religions that have existed over our history of existence. All of them are wrong but yours? Seems rather crazy, don't you think?


RE: Just Wow
By InsaneGain on 11/18/2008 1:20:28 PM , Rating: 3
I think you are missing the point that in today's era of scientific understanding, it is simply ridiculous to believe in myths created in a period when people thought that things like lightning, earthquakes and disease where acts of an angry god. It is interesting that religion has been a factor in every single culture throughout history that I know of. I guess these religious myths satisfy a universal, irresistible human instinct to desire an all-knowing, rule-making father figure that will ultimately look after us and help alleviate insecurity and uncertainty. It is also a well known fact that tapping into this instinct provides a very effective method of gaining power over a population. I don't think it is a coincidence that Christianity gained widespread adoption throughout Europe just as the centralized power of the Roman Empire was falling apart. It provided the population a place to look for security during a time of chaos, pillaging and disease while providing Rome with a convenient replacement for imperial authority.


RE: Just Wow
By sweb74 on 11/18/2008 1:34:57 PM , Rating: 3
The bible is the biggest bunch of bullshit out there. slavery, here is Exodus 21

21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

21:4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

But the bible is all about love... people need to read the bible, and not only certain sections. I'm not religious because of the bible.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 2:14:39 PM , Rating: 2
There isn't a greater reason to be an atheist than any biblical text.


RE: Just Wow
By resisty on 11/18/2008 4:50:23 PM , Rating: 3
You know, I'm just not convinced by atheism. It just doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

Atheism's base is science. Science is the best attempt that man makes to understand his environment. Science is constantly trumped by newer, more accurate science. In other words, science itself states that it is not, nor can it ever be, the final authority because there is always the possibility that it is wrong.

Therefore, saying that through science you know that there is no god means you are a hypocrite of the highest order. Once you do that, you have just moved from a scientific base to one of faith.

I'm more comfortable with agnosticism, which just says everything's a definite maybe.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 5:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
Atheism's stance is a lack of believing in something without proof. Agnostics are just atheists without balls.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 5:44:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You know, I'm just not convinced by atheism. It just doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.
Those feelings of belief come from within not without.


RE: Just Wow
By sprockkets on 11/18/2008 2:41:24 PM , Rating: 1
So, you object to Hebrew slaves being freed after 6 years? Also, you object to land sold for money being returned back to the hereditary owner after 50 to prevent people from owning all the land, you know, like how today the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively?

Btw, if you read the rest of the chapter, you would get to the part of the protections of slaves.

In fact, if you actually read the verses you quoted, the slave mentioned actually liked the treatment he had from his owner so much, he decided to be a permanent slave.

Slavery in Israel back then was not the slavery you think it was, aka what happened in this country during the 1800s. We know people like you would like to juxtapose slavery from that time period.

It really is nice you brought to the fore your ignorance and inability to comprehend words.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 3:05:25 PM , Rating: 2
See, it makes it OK to condone slavery, as long as you let them go after a few years. Also, you have to give them rights, like you can only kill them for certain reasons and beat them as well. Also, he conveniently picked the slave people for you, so you don't have to. What a guy! I love when people compare a "god" to human actions, classic.


RE: Just Wow
By sprockkets on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 4:40:05 PM , Rating: 2
I hold no position here but logic. If you can justify believing in a god that condones enslaving a group of people, beating women and children, hating homosexuals and human sacrifice, so be it. He conveniently picked the Hebrews as the decided slave.

I don't care what people are doing, that is not the point. The point is that god is condoning this behavior which means he is not morally superior. I have a feeling that you do not condone any of this behavior, cause I believe you are probably a sane and reasonable individual. To believe in a god that condones these things is to directly go against what pretty much anyone has as morals.

But, I also believe you have poor logical reasoning brought on by years of not using it after being brainwashed by religion. Believing in religion is the easy way out and the lazy way out. If you don't know how something works or how something happened, suddenly magic is the key?


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/18/2008 6:07:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I hold no position here but logic. If you can justify believing in a god that condones enslaving a group of people, beating women and children, hating homosexuals and human sacrifice, so be it.


In your arguments, you consistently appeal to "logic," and then proceed to make some statement that is completely outside of the boundaries of what can be ascertained using actual logic. As a software professional, and occasional programmer, I'm particular about this sort of thing.

What does logic you appeal to in the first half of your sentence have to do with all of these moral / ethical judgement calls you make in the second half? Could the statement you are trying to make be put into a flowchart, and require no outside cultural or moral precepts? If not, we aren't talking about logic, and it's not quite so simple or objective as you make it out to be.


RE: Just Wow
By Spuke on 11/18/2008 7:28:34 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/18/2008 11:28:23 PM , Rating: 2
What's your point, exactly?


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/18/2008 7:57:58 PM , Rating: 2
Keep trying my friend, just keep trying. In your arguments you just rant with no real basis. These are mainly used to show inconsistencies in the bible and rampant contradiction. If you are truly OK with slavery, beating of women and children and human sacrifice, so be it.

I think logically though, you can deduce that no one would condone something that could be done to them, so if it was presented in that fashion, they would be against it.

Keep fighting for your silly beliefs, cause there isn't a leg to stand on with proof.


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/18/2008 11:26:48 PM , Rating: 2
All I said was that you were misusing the word logic. Whenever you say "logic," as you do many times in each of your posts, you in fact mean "magic sauce which makes my all of my opinions right."


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 9:37:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
All I said was that you were misusing the word logic. Whenever you say "logic," as you do many times in each of your posts, you in fact mean "magic sauce which makes my all of my opinions right."


Wow, someone is diluted. Could you explain what I say that is defined as magic? I'm not using opinions, my stance has no need to be proved, as the lack of belief requires no proof. Proof is required by the presenter of something. If I told you a rock I gave you keeps tigers away, it would be my job to prove that. If you blindly believed it, you would be a fool.

It is more than clear you don't understand what atheism actually is, it is not a belief, it is the lack there of. Prove something and it shall be acknowledged, not "believed". Believing in something without proof is something children do cause they don't know better. You believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus or the The Easter Bunny without proof as a child, would you not chastise an adult for the same belief? Why? Most people's reason would be there is no proof, they don't exist. So, explain to me how "god" is any different than any of the previous characters or any other fictional character.

There are books of Santa Claus, songs and people that believe in him, doesn't make it real. "God" is no more real than Superman or The Blob. If you are so easily fooled to believe in a god, why not Zeus? I dare say had you been born in Ancient Rome, you would believe in Roman gods, had you been born in Ancient Greece, you would then believe in Greek gods. Had you been born in the Middle East, you would most likely be Muslim. What if you were born in Tibet, China, India? The point is you didn't chose this religion, you were brainwashed by a group of people to believe in it.


RE: Just Wow
By clovell on 11/19/2008 11:32:39 AM , Rating: 2
No, believing in something without proof gave us irrational numbers, Euclidean Geometry, Calculus, Apollo 11, RSA Encryption, etc., etc.

Science requires axioms - it cannot prove itself. Assuming the Euclidean Parallel Postulate for over a millenia was wrong, but it gave us a lot of technology. I wouldn't liken that to Santa Claus.

At the end of the day, we're not all that different or better than one another. Beating someone over the head with this 'logic' doesn't make you any better than beating someone over the head with a bible.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 12:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No, believing in something without proof gave us irrational numbers, Euclidean Geometry, Calculus, Apollo 11, RSA Encryption, etc., etc.


Yet they had reason to believe them in the first place, which means there was not proof, but there was reason. Religion clearly lacks any standing reason to exist, as it can not even begin to hold up to scrutiny. Science on the other has at least some reason to lead them to these theories, or at the very least it fits some hole in another theory.

"In traditional logic, an axiom or postulate is a proposition that is not proved or demonstrated but considered to be either self-evident, or subject to necessary decision. Therefore, its truth is taken for granted, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other (theory dependent) truths."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

You don't even read the definition of your own argument center. Religion has been under this scrutiny and doesn't stand up to it, which means it doesn't fall under axiom cause it doesn't even meet the criteria, yet it is still around. If you don't scrutinize the axiom as you put it, then it isn't an axiom, as this is the point of putting these things out there, to reason them through to either be shot down or become a theory. There is a reason scientists constantly shoot down things like intelligent design, cause it is a joke with no basis.

Why does everyone think that religion shouldn't be scrutinized? It is somehow above any other belief and deserves to be given special treatment? If someone believes light bulbs work by magic, would you not scrutinize this belief and explain why it doesn't? It is self preservation at it's finest, people let this belief define their being and flip out if it comes into question.


RE: Just Wow
By Headfoot on 11/19/2008 12:11:39 PM , Rating: 2
Read the philosopher Immanuel Kant. He provides non-theistic reasoning. His writings are very interesting whether you agree with him or not.


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/19/2008 12:35:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wow, someone is diluted.


So now I'm watered down? Case in point. You ramble on about intelligence, yet with all of your misspellings, poor sentence structure, nonsensical statements and base level biases, your arguments carry the intellectual weight of an orangutan flinging his own feces.


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/19/2008 12:37:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If I told you a rock I gave you keeps tigers away, it would be my job to prove that.


And with that final tired-ass Simpsons reference, you have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that you are incapable of independent thought.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/19/2008 2:14:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And with that final tired-ass Simpsons reference, you have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that you are incapable of independent thought.


Would you prefer it was a spoon that keeps away bats? I have a feeling you are flustered at this point, so I will let you be. When you come up with a real argument for religion or actual proof, let me know.


RE: Just Wow
By Parhel on 11/20/2008 12:18:28 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know why it took me so long to figure this out, but it's uncanny how much you resemble Pirks.

Your posting pattern is identical. The nasty, degrading insults are the same. And you try and draw people into the same circular reasoning, talking to a wall, type of arguments. Even your humor is the same.

With Pirks, it was Apple and with this new ID you are using, it's probably going to be religion. In both cases, you don't care about the subject matter one bit so long as you make people angry. You are one disturbed individual if this is how you get your kicks.

I knew the minute you bad-mouthed Apple in another thread. You're just trying to blow some smoke. But don't worry, it will come out.


RE: Just Wow
By Gzus666 on 11/20/2008 9:14:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't know why it took me so long to figure this out, but it's uncanny how much you resemble Pirks. Your posting pattern is identical. The nasty, degrading insults are the same. And you try and draw people into the same circular reasoning, talking to a wall, type of arguments. Even your humor is the same. With Pirks, it was Apple and with this new ID you are using, it's probably going to be religion. In both cases, you don't care about the subject matter one bit so long as you make people angry. You are one disturbed individual if this is how you get your kicks. I knew the minute you bad-mouthed Apple in another thread. You're just trying to blow some smoke. But don't worry, it will come out.


Oddly enough, I know the douche you are talking about. You mean the same insults you use like the throwing feces comment? Someone is a bit of a hypocrite.

But, back on topic, did you find a reason for the belief or is it still based on someone saying it is real? I really would love to see someone come up with actual proof for a belief rather than just saying it is real. It is clear you have nothing and that is why you are flipping out and just ranting. I do find it hilarious to see the random modes people go through when they can't find a leg to stand on for a belief, so maybe I'm a bit disturbed in that respect.

I think it is hilarious when someone doesn't have something to bolster their argument in any way, so they move off on tangents, don't answer questions and do everything in their power to try to change the subject. I tip my hat to you sir, you are truly a professional and the brainwashing has done you well.


RE: Just Wow
By Headfoot on 11/19/2008 12:08:50 PM , Rating: 2
+1


RE: Just Wow
By Suomynona on 11/18/2008 9:40:38 AM , Rating: 5
I don't think any of those things make her more susceptible to being scammed, but the idea that knowing CPR protects you from con artists is hilarious.

"I can blow air into people's mouths! How could anyone possibly fool me?!?"


RE: Just Wow
By Pneumothorax on 11/18/2008 9:11:23 AM , Rating: 5
Title should be Woman Succumbs to "Stupidity"


RE: Just Wow
By Pneumothorax on 11/18/2008 9:12:18 AM , Rating: 5
One other thing, if this person is truly a registered nurse, it might explain part of our health care problem lol


RE: Just Wow
By shaw on 11/18/2008 9:54:30 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
She deserved it, what a moron.
And now she has noting.


RE: Just Wow
By arazok on 11/18/2008 10:03:39 AM , Rating: 5
I’m going to email her and tell her I can get her money back if she just sends me $8,100 to close out some paperwork…


RE: Just Wow
By VoodooChicken on 11/18/2008 10:33:03 AM , Rating: 2
I'm actually curious to see the actual correspondence the scammers kept dishing out. I've never seen anything beyond the initial scam-mail. This case is like observing the effects of a cancer in progress. It's ugly and tragic, but a good learning tool.


RE: Just Wow
By MrBungle123 on 11/18/2008 12:51:57 PM , Rating: 2
If you'd really like to know I'm sure you could get your own subscription to nigerian email scam weekly for a nominal fee of $100 for the first week, additional charges may apply, ask your publisher for details. Send all payments via western union to national bank of Nigeria, no recipent ID verification required.


RE: Just Wow
By Meinolf on 11/18/2008 10:49:28 AM , Rating: 5
The husband was later sited for strangling his wife.


RE: Just Wow
By HaZaRd2K6 on 11/18/2008 11:31:55 AM , Rating: 2
Oh she absolutely deserved it, but her husband absolutely didn't.

Too bad they can't even afford a decent divorce lawyer now.


RE: Just Wow
By Hiawa23 on 11/18/2008 8:05:04 PM , Rating: 2
pretty stupid, LOL..


Dear Sir/M
By Bateluer on 11/18/2008 8:43:38 AM , Rating: 5
I am Mr.David Mark. an Auditor of a BANK OF THE NORTH
INTERNATIONAL,ABUJA
(FCT). I have the courage to Crave indulgence for
this important business
believing that you will never let me down
either now or in the future. Some
years ago, an American Mining
consultant/ contractor with the Nigeria National
Petroleum Corporation,
made a numbered time (fixed)deposit for twelve calendar
months, valued
$12M.USD (TWELVE MILLION US DOLLARS) in an account. On maturity,
The
bank sent a routine notification to his forwarding address but got no
reply.
After a month, The bank sent another reminder and finally his
contract
employers, the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation wrote
to inform the bank
that he died without MAKING A WILL, and all attempts
by the American Embassy to
trace his next of kin was fruitless. I
therefore, made further investigation and
discovered that the
beneficiary was an immigrant from Jamaica and only recently
obtained
American citizenship. He did not decla re any kin or relations in all
his official documents, including his Bank deposit paper work. This
money total
amount$12M.USD ( TWELVE MILLION US DOLLARS)is still sitting
in my bank as
dormant Account. No one will ever come forward to claim
it, and according to
Nigerian Banking policy, after some years, the
money will revert to the
ownership of the igerian Government if the
account owner is certified dead. This
is the situation, and my proposal
is that I am looking for a foreigner who will
stand in as the next of
kin to beneficiary, and OPEN a Bank Account abroad to
facilitate the
transfer of this money. This is simple, all you have to do is to
OPEN
an account anywhere in the world and send me its detail for me to
arrange
the proper money transfer paperwork, and facilitate the
transfer.The money will
then be paid into this Account for us to share
in the ratio of 60% for me, 35 %
for you and 5% for expenses that might
come up during transfer process. There is
no risk at all, and all the
paper work for this transaction will be done by me
using my position
and connections in the banks in Nigeria. This business
transaction is
guaranteed.And the first phase of the transfer will be ($4M.USD)
FOUR
MILLION DOLLARS as advised by our insider in the bank.If you are
interested, please reply immediately through my personal email sending
the
following details: (1) Your Full Name/Address (2) Your Private
Telephone/fax
Number. Please observe the utmost confidentiality, and be
rest assured that this
transaction would be most profitable for both of
us because I shall require your
assistance to invest some of my share
in your country. I look forward to your
earliest reply.
Yours,
Mr.David
Mark.




RE: Dear Sir/M
By gmyx on 11/18/2008 9:20:09 AM , Rating: 2
Sounds good... Sweden account ok?
Account #666-666-666


RE: Dear Sir/M
By spread on 11/18/2008 10:15:04 AM , Rating: 2
This guy looks legit.


RE: Dear Sir/M
By AnnihilatorX on 11/18/2008 10:53:45 AM , Rating: 2
I once got a scam in which the scammer is a fake company that even arranged a price-drawing event in London and invited me to go, of course which I didn't go so I couldn't not have confirmed if such event did really take place. At first it was a simple telephone survey from that company, asking typical product survey questions, and saying that I have entered a prize-draw, and to attend the aforementioned event in London which they say is a charity event with prize draw.

Later they phoned me claiming that I have won US$100,000. And someone posed as solicitor tried to arrange me to collect it, including asking me for passport ID. That the money is from the company headquarters at HK and I needed to deposit an administration fee of 5% to the Hong Kong Financial Authority. They even setup fake answering machine when I asked for proof that the government regulates the transfer. I crossed checked their company website, and a list of registered solicitors, at which point I realised this is definitely a scam so I backed out.


RE: Dear Sir/M
By FITCamaro on 11/18/2008 12:09:04 PM , Rating: 2
When selling my Cobalt I had two scammers trying to get me.

"We'll send you $20,000. You take out how much you want for your car, send the difference to this person for shipping."

Yeah...


RE: Dear Sir/M
By Jack Ripoff on 11/18/2008 11:13:27 AM , Rating: 2
I got this one last week:

quote:

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http://http://www.acculotto. com/lottery.html
http://www.acculotto.com/ lottery.html
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DATE:14-NOV-2008
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Sir/Madam

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Due to mix up of some numbers and names, we ask that you keep your winning information confidential until your claims has been processed and your money remitted to you.

This is part of our security protocol to avoid double claim and unwarranted abuse of this program by some participants.

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This lottery was promoted and sponsored by http://www.acculotto.com/ lottery.html and Spanish European in conjunction with all international world organization such as ,(UN,UNICEF,UNESCO)E.T.C in order to enhance and promote the use of Internet Explorer Users and Microsoft-wares around the globe.

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COMPLETE AND SEND REQUIRED INFORMATION BELOW TO YOUR CLAIM AGENT BY EMAIL: infogarciaseg03@aim.com % infogarciaseg01@gmail.com

VERIFICATION FORM

1. FULL NAMES: ______________________________ _
2. ADDRESS: ______________________________ ____
3. SEX: _______________
4. AGE: ________
5. OCCUPATION: _______________________
6. TELEPHONE NUMBER: ________________
7. TICKET NUMBER: _______________
8.REFERENCE: ___________________
9.BATCH NUMBER: ______________
10.AMOUNT WON: ______________________

`````````````````````````````` ``````````DISCLAIMER`````````` `````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````` ````````````````
CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.All messages sent to you is from http://www.acculotto.com/ lottery.html


RE: Dear Sir/M
By Clauzii on 11/18/2008 2:36:41 PM , Rating: 2
I've counted together all my different 'Euro'-lottery mails. At the moment I've reached over €2 billion. the last I got was around 230 million.

Of course I hit 'delete' faster than one can say Scam-Spam.


At least we sometimes get revenge
By Proteusza on 11/18/2008 9:31:59 AM , Rating: 5
I highly recommend viewing:

http://www.419eater.com/html/ojukwu_damisa.htm
http://www.419eater.com/html/nelson_coakley.htm
http://www.419eater.com/html/tope.htm
http://www.419eater.com/html/joseph_otumba.htm

You know, as foolish as this woman was, I still have sympathy for her. Lets not forget who is in the wrong, who did the scamming. Yes, she was greedy, but she didnt lie or steal to get money. They did. Her greed doesnt excuse their behaviour, and make it okay to steal a lot of money belonging to someone who actually needs it. She probably has nothing left, and at her age, thats pretty tough.

Lets face it, the only reason people are supposed to be streetwise, suspicious and untrusting is because of individuals like this. If nobody scammed each other, people like this scammee would be fine. Its only because of other people's deceit and greed that her attitude and naivety are taken advantage of.




RE: At least we sometimes get revenge
By spread on 11/18/2008 10:25:52 AM , Rating: 5
She was warned by her family and the authorities that this was a scam. I don't feel bad for her one bit.

The real victims here are her husband, when she stole all his retirement money, and her kids who will have to support her from now on.


By FITCamaro on 11/18/2008 12:10:35 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention they'll have to pay off all those debts for her since there's no way she'll ever be able to.


RE: At least we sometimes get revenge
By g35fan on 11/18/2008 12:59:52 PM , Rating: 5
Seriously!!! The husband is the one who got screwed. His entire life savings and retirement money gone because of his wife. This is something peggy bundy would do to Al.


What's worse?
By Moohbear on 11/18/2008 9:29:17 AM , Rating: 3
That she felt for this old-as-the-internet scam, or that she's actually coming forward with it? If I ended up falling for something like that, I'd rather not have anyone knows. Especially if I were a local public figure, supposed to be a moral compass in my community, a symbol of integrity, temperance and wisdom...

Anyway, another victim of natural selection. And a reverend! How ironic.




RE: What's worse?
By piroroadkill on 11/18/2008 11:00:52 AM , Rating: 3
If she was stupid enough to fall for it, over, and over, she's stupid enough to not think about PR


RE: What's worse?
By rcc on 11/18/2008 11:07:01 AM , Rating: 3
She's hoping that there are enough people around goofier than she is, that will feel sorry and send her money.

Personally I think the scammers should be shot when found. However, it really gets me that people are stupid enough to fall for this crap.

Basic Maxim's of Life???

Let the buyer beware?

If it looks too good to be true, it probably is?

etc. et.

oh, and...... never bet against a Sicilian when death is involved???? Sorry, a little mind warp there. : )


Sign Language
By isorfir on 11/18/2008 8:49:36 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
She's even fluent in sign-language, which she uses to communicate with her husband.

I can guess what sign he gave back after she told him about this.




RE: Sign Language
By AlvinCool on 11/18/2008 8:53:44 AM , Rating: 3
Yes, the same one they gave when they were asked to return the money?


If I was her husband
By Ryanman on 11/18/2008 8:43:55 AM , Rating: 2
I'd order her to be put to death. His retirement? There's NO excuse for this kind of stupidity, no matter what caliber her "greed" was. For a reverend especially, admitting to so gross a deadly sin is sketchy at best.




RE: If I was her husband
By fishbits on 11/18/2008 9:28:00 AM , Rating: 2
Be "funny" twist if she was using "I fell for Nigerian email scam" to swindle money from the marriage.

"Despite pleas from law enforcement officials, her family and bank officials who told her it was a scam..."
That's the point I lost all sympathy. Now she's encouraged the spammers to just keep it up, the payday is nigh!


RE: If I was her husband
By TheDoc9 on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: If I was her husband
By nycromes on 11/18/2008 2:14:26 PM , Rating: 3
Oh please... fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I can understand the first $100 after that she should have known better. No one is saying that the scammer isn't at fault, but this goes beyond that. There is no need to place all the blame on one party in this instance, she not only fell for this scam, but then she continued to allow herself to be taken.

Unlike a comment above citing a robbery by a large man on a small woman. The small woman would have done nothing to encourage the robbery and was a victim in the purest sense. Mrs. Spears went above and beyond being a victim, willingly going back again and again to get taken. This is when my sympathy goes out the door. She was a victim, but of her own ignorance more than her own greed or the swindling of the scammers. They are certainly the criminals here, but she victimized herself in this situation as well. No one is saying she is 100% responsible, but rather her actions were so above and beyond what most rational people would have done that she is partially responsible for this mess.

Aside from what all that, I would absolutely love to see the responsible party trapped and punished. They did something very wrong and need to pay.


Greedy human
By napalmjack on 11/18/2008 8:46:47 AM , Rating: 5
All your monies are belong to us!




Obvious?
By fifolo on 11/18/2008 8:52:58 AM , Rating: 5
"The letters contained many obvious types."

Yes, obvious indeed.




By ZimZum on 11/18/2008 8:54:51 AM , Rating: 3
A fool and his money..............




By Radnor on 11/18/2008 9:09:43 AM , Rating: 2
....will soon be apart.

You gotta love the classics.


Registered Nurse?
By fleshconsumed on 11/18/2008 9:55:47 AM , Rating: 3
I'd be afraid to let her near me. It's hard to believe she can make rational decisions as a nurse when she falls for such an obvious scam.




RE: Registered Nurse?
By thesafetyisoff on 11/18/2008 6:10:56 PM , Rating: 2
Heh, $400K from a nurse is nothing. A DOCTOR in my area named Louis Gottschalk lost $3 MILLION. And the guy was 89 years old.

How would you like THAT GUY working on you?


HOURS OF FUN
By FaceMaster on 11/18/2008 9:52:05 AM , Rating: 2
When I get an email like this, I always reply from a specially made Email I use just to wind people up (You know, scammers, DailyTech people etc)

I recently befriended Song Lile who promised millions of Dollars.

MY FIRST REPLY

OMG does this mean I get all that money? This sounds too good to be true! What do I have to do?!?!?!

---------------------------------------

Dear James Luke ,

I want to let you know of myself so that you will be rest assured of whom you are transacting with. I am married with two children Liu my daughter and Lee my son, I have sent you my family picture now for you to see. My address is #1, Fortune Garden, 20 Wing Ting Road, Ngan Chi Wan, Kln, Hong Kong. i have lived here for the last 13years.

I have really invested much in this transaction so I will please tell you to accept the 30% of the total funds that I have intend to give to you. For your information I will be coming over to your country for my share of the funds, once the funds credits your account at the bank that we will be using for this transaction.

Please endevour to keep this transaction confidential, Please do not discuss it with anybody, I have a 22year career with my bank (Hang Seng) and I don? intend to ruin all that. I really cant wait till the funds leave my bank because I have not been able to sleep nor eat properly for the past days. Attach to this email is my work ID and my family pictures for your reference.

Well if I may remind you again, you are required to send at least a copy of your Driver's License 'or' a copy of your International Passport as an attachment to my email or fax +85230157075. Besides, it is this copy of your Driver's Licence or International Passport that will be be used by the Attorney have all the necesary documentations perfected.

The most important issue is that I want to be sure I am transacting with the correct person, I believe these information would be enough to confirm you interest.

Best Regards,

Song Li

---------------------------------------

Hi Song!

How do you? Have you recieved my drivers lincensing yet? I have been suffering from necrophillia recently and have only recovered yesterday. I hope my license has not been lost in the post, it is off much value so it would be awful if it fell into the wong hands. I lost £1337 last year from a Nigerian credit card scam so I am reluctant to trust many people online. However after having seen your magnificent photos and reading about your distinguished carreer with your bank I realise I am dealing with a good person.
By the way you may not realise but I am a man of the cloth. I have shown your pictures with my congregation who would also like to transact with you. Do you have a phone number I could provide them with. How about some more photos?

Kind regards

The Reverend James Luke

---------------------------------------

Dear James Luke ,

I am in receipt of your mail and your identification.This is to also let you know that I feel comfortable transacting with you even though we have not met but I believe pretty soon we are going to meet. Please do not let me down. I have forwarded your details to the attorney who will put together the perfected paper work to be sent to the bank for the release of the funds, this should take not longer than a day or two working days. In this light, I am sending you the information of the bank so that you can make enquiries on offshore/on-line account opening.

I advice like I said earlier that you open an account with the bank so that once the funds are released, they will be moved straight into your account and the transfer will not attract the monetary bodies, as the transfer will be seen as in-house.(same telex type with my Bank).You can then transfer the funds in safe bits to your main account for both of us.

Please find below the bank information.

Post Bank NL
Amsterdam Branch
Kruithuisstraat 52
1018 WW Amsterdam
The Netherlands

Tel.:+31 61 7337059
Fax.:+31 84 7198406
Email:amstardam@postbnk-nl.org

Opening Hours monday till friday:
9.00 - 17.00
Saturday:
9.30 - 13.30

Please contact them with the following informations, your Full Names, Contact Telephone Numbers (Home, Office and Mobile Number and also Fax Number). Note, that you are to inform the bank that you wish to open an offshore account with their reputable bank that can accommodate the sum of US$19.5M for further transfer, and they should advice you on such account. I will await an update. Please do make contact with the bank so that the account opening can be fast.

I am hereunder forwarding to you the certificate of deposit as issued to Col Sadiq Uday.

God Bless you for your positive resolve to affect our lives. As soon as the funds hit your account, I shall come over to your country for the investment which you will assist me in managing.

Your brother,
Song Lile

---------------------------------------

What is it that I am meant to do? I have sent my driving licence and am awaiting your response.

---------------------------------------

Dear James Luke,

Good day to you my friend and partner.Why is it taking so long to hear from you?Please kindly direct me on what to do as i am in a very advanced stage of confusion.Your quietness is bothering me and i can no longer cope as time is no longer on my side.

Mr Song Lile

---------------------------------------

... and since then he's just been sending this same email, over and over again, as if he's some kind of bot or something. WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?!?!




RE: HOURS OF FUN
By Rookierookie on 11/18/2008 11:27:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Liu my daughter and Lee my son

His daughter and son have different family names?


Wish I had $400K
By Belard on 11/18/2008 11:16:20 AM , Rating: 1
Sure wish I had $400,000 to work with. Maybe Im in the wrong business. I could use some investments in business projects that have a chance of making money. But its simple, to SPAM for cash is most likely nothing more than scammers and scum of the earth... Oops, sorry - ALL spammers are scum of the earth. ;)

Attention people. If you have money that you want to part with and will be used for a good cause. Please send it to me.

After all these years of jokes and spam about scammers from Africa and Russia or <insert name> prince of boonie-ville.... people are still dumb enough through out thousands of dollars. And of course the scammers know that a hit like this women is all the more reason to keep doing it. :(

So no. I don't feel sorry for anyone who blows their money. Not sure how they even made that much mony and yet think that is how to make more from some out-of-the-blue email.

Oh well...




RE: Wish I had $400K
By InvertMe on 11/18/2008 1:58:06 PM , Rating: 2
Good Sir,

I have recentently aquired a large fortune and would be agreeable to sharing it with you. I only need to know that you are serious in your desire to accept money from me.

So please send me $10,000 in earnest money as well as all your credit card information, bank account numbers, social security number and mother's maiden name.

Thank you and I look forward to sharing my great fortune with you.

Mubato


Man oh man
By Desslok on 11/18/2008 8:41:43 AM , Rating: 2
Where is Gordon Gecko???




Classical Nigerian Scams
By Schadenfroh on 11/18/2008 9:08:14 AM , Rating: 2
My father gets spam emails from people claiming to be from the FARC Network stating that someone has paid them to assassinate him and if he does not beat their offer they will follow through. It appears that appealing to greed works better than appealing to fear.




Funny website for these scams
By Spivonious on 11/18/2008 9:35:47 AM , Rating: 2
www.scamorama.com

Hilarity ensues.




Payback
By Jovec on 11/18/2008 10:51:40 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps she should contact these guys (skip ahead 5 mins to Act 1):

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx...




wow
By poundsmack on 11/18/2008 12:06:46 PM , Rating: 2
What scares me the most isn't that she lost all this money the an obvious scam, but that she claims to be very intelligent, is a nurse (possibility to have others lives in her hands), and thinks she is a victim. If my bank, relatives, credit card companies, and others who are more experienced with managing finances told me this was a known scam and they had seen it hundreds of times I would listen. Though likely this woman is mentally ill, and also likely suffers from highly addictive tendencies, much like those who have gambling issues.




WHAT!
By shoopdeewoop on 11/18/2008 12:09:05 PM , Rating: 2
"hoping against common sense for a big payoff."

This says it all for me...I have no sympathy for this lady because she has no common sense...I think this is a hugely under appreciated problem with people now a days...I'm not saying scamming should be legal but we need to stop it because the authorities will never be able to...EVER. The only way we can stop this is to smarten up and NOT fall for their scams...if there is no business out there then they will go out of business. So, in review...common sense goes up...scamming goes down...of course...who decides what common sense is...?




Glad to see greed in quotes
By jmunjr on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Glad to see greed in quotes
By jmunjr on 11/18/2008 4:12:03 PM , Rating: 2
ok I take it back. I did not read that she sold everything to pay these guys.


Vegas Vacation
By Kyanzes on 11/18/2008 4:18:01 PM , Rating: 2
By Bioniccrackmonk on 11/18/2008 4:58:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it could have been easily prevented if people exercise a bit more common sense.


The current recession we are in, the housing crisis, companies going bankrupt due to greed/incompetence, Darwin Awards, the list goes on and on.

This is one of those statements that can be applied to many things, it's a shame a lot of people take it for granted though.




Yikes..
By Wiznaz on 11/18/2008 6:55:05 PM , Rating: 2
Don't worry guys, our gov't will bail her out as well..




By Nighteye2 on 11/25/2008 10:59:08 AM , Rating: 2
There's a known psychological effect that makes people inclined to justify their past decisions once made - if she'd refuse the next payment, she'd have to admit to herself that the previous payments were all wrong, too. Some people just don't have the courage to face such truths...




What a moron
By Roy2001 on 11/18/2008 12:37:46 PM , Rating: 1
We just laughing, moron will keep doing this even with story published. People with common sense would not fall in this kind of trap ever.




What a f-ing idiot
By chick0n on 11/18/08, Rating: 0
What did Bush do this time?
By Belard on 11/18/08, Rating: -1
"Let's face it, we're not changing the world. We're building a product that helps people buy more crap - and watch porn." -- Seagate CEO Bill Watkins














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