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After being fired through Facebook, esthetician Crystal Bell has spawned several debates and discussions regarding the use of electronic communication for employment termination.

After being fired from a spa through Facebook, esthetician Crystal Bell spawned a debate over "cyber-sacking" and what employers owe their employees during a time when electronic approaches have become such commonly used mediums for communication.   

Referring to the idea of using electronic communication for termination, Bell said, "I think it's going to be the way of the future, but for me it's not the human way to go.”
 
Bell, a single mother from Kelowna (a city in the Okanagan Valley of British Columbia, Canada) had only been an employee of the spa for two weeks after being hired through Facebook, before being fired through the social network.

Bell’s former boss, Susan Woehrie, chose to make the termination after Bell’s absence at a staff meeting held on her day off.  

Woerhie defended her communication decision, explaining that she tried to use the phone after the staff meeting, but couldn't get in touch with Bell.

"I just wanted to have it dealt with that evening," Woerhie said. "I didn't want to deal with it at the shop when other people were around."

Bell was at the hospital with her sick mother during the staff meeting. She had no minutes left on her cell phone and no room for new voicemails on her answering machine at home. As a result, Woerhie chose to send a message to Bell's private Facebook inbox. 

After receiving the message, Bell got dressed and went to the spa anyway, thinking she had been subject of a joke.

“I think using any kind of texting or e-mailing to let people go is the coward's way out,” Bell said.

The situation has created several online debates and discussions. Those interested, from employment lawyers to human resources professionals, have been blogging about the use of electronic communication for letters of termination.

Robert Smithson, a Vancouver labor lawyer, belongs to the group as one of those willing to share an opinion on the idea: "There are both legalistic and humanistic reasons to not be resorting to e-mail or other electronic forms of communication to terminate employment…A prudent employer would say, 'This might not be the most friendly, sympathetic manner, so we're going to avoid that.'"

The Wallace decision, a 1997 ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada, serves as an example of how terminations executed with certain levels of disregard for the to-be-terminated, can result in awards (to the formerly employed) for "bad faith" damages.

The Wallace decision did not deliberate over firing through electronic communication, but Bell was ready to bring forth this deliberation when she contacted a lawyer to discuss her damages. Unfortunately for Bell's case, the lawyer let her know that this case would not work because her employment at the spa had only lasted for two weeks.



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Fair Dismissal?
By InternetGeek on 1/7/2009 12:32:03 AM , Rating: 4
I'd have to find out more about the details of her dismissal, but does anyone think this is a 'fair' reason for dismissing/firing someone?:

[quote]Bell’s former boss, Susan Woehrie, chose to make the termination after Bell’s absence at a staff meeting held on her day off.[/quote]

It's her day off. Was she required to attend or the boss thought it doesn't look professional for her not to show up?




RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Solandri on 1/7/2009 1:24:47 AM , Rating: 4
If you read that sentence carefully, it only says that the termination happened after the missed meeting, not that the termination was because of the missing meeting. I wouldn't draw any conclusions without getting the facts straight.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By inighthawki on 1/7/2009 2:38:35 AM , Rating: 5
It can be taken both ways actually. The way the sentence is structured. People say things all the time in that exact same way implying it was the cause of the situation.

"He was arrested after starting a commotion at the store"
That sentence could mean he was literally arrested right after he started a commotion, which it kind of does, but what it actually means is that he was arrested after starting a commotion as a direct result OF starting the commotion.

Personally if it means that they waited till after the meeting, they couldve worded it better, but it surely doesn't sound that way to me.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Solandri on 1/7/2009 3:52:12 AM , Rating: 4
If there were a solid story, I think the reporter would've worded it unambiguously. It would've been trivial to say she was fired "for" missing a meeting, not "after". Press editors are pretty good about catching ambiguities and double meanings such as this - it's their job. The site's registration says CanWest publishing, which bills itself as the largest publisher of paid English daily newspapers in Canada. So I doubt it's some site run out of the basement.

It sounds to me like they got some statements from the employee, some statements from the manager, and perhaps they ran out of time to re-interview to cross-check statements, so they tried to piece it together in such a way which let them milk it for all it was worth without stating anything false.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 10:11:25 AM , Rating: 2
they prob sched/held the mtg because it was her day off... so they could go over why they wanted to fire her.

i've witnessed about 6 ppl take a vaction only to get fired once they leave. it's like the ppl who hate you find the time to discuss how to get rid of you. one woman I worked with had the job for 20 yrs... she took 3 weeks off because her husband had open heart surgery -- they canned her.

that's the American spirit! she sued, and as far as I know...was compensated via lawsuit.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By SlyNine on 1/7/2009 12:14:44 PM , Rating: 2
That women would have been protected by the FMLA and would have had legal recourse.

The women in the story had only been hired 2 weeks ago, so she's sol.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By KarmakazeNZ on 1/7/2009 1:27:00 AM , Rating: 2
I agree how is that legal?
Maybe someone with a little more info about the laws on dismissals in America can clear the air?


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 1:35:18 AM , Rating: 3
In the US, in any right to work state, you don't need cause to dismiss anyone, and can do so for pretty much any reason at any time (except the standard race, religion, creed, etc).

In Canada, I believe you can generally fire without cause, if and only if the employee isn't covered by a collective bargaining agreement (a union) and if you provide reasonable notice.

But as I understand it, the crux of this suit isn't why the woman was fired, but *how* the firing occurred. I don't know the law in this case, but I hope-- for Canada's sake-- that the plaintiff gets tossed out on her ear. Frivolous suits are never good for an economy.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By jjunos on 1/7/2009 1:53:38 AM , Rating: 1
No, you cannot fire without cause.

You obviously can fire WITH cause.
You can obviously lay off someone.
Or, you can dismiss someone without cause with proper severance (which basically turns out to being laid off).

The reason why she had no case was because she was within her probationary period, I'm assuming (which states that both the employer and employee can quit/dismiss without cause, without notice).


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By dj LiTh on 1/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fair Dismissal?
By jjunos on 1/7/2009 9:49:19 AM , Rating: 2
ugh,

no wrong. Well, wrong in a way.

I guess I denoted "severance" wrong in my original post, but basically what I was defining was severance as either notice or payment in it's stead.

Note: This could be different in the US, but in CANADA, you can't simple be "fired" with no 'severance' without cause.

By Canadian law, you are given at least a certain amount of notice or pay instead of notice when being laid off/"fired without cause". Notice there's a big difference from being simple "fired without cause" and "fired WITH cause".

For anyone interested, you can find all this information here:

http://www.canadabusiness.ca/servlet/ContentServer...

Note again: Some employee's are exempt from this and you can also sign contracts that exempt you so YMMV.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 10:03:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
By Canadian law, you are given at least a certain amount of notice or pay instead of notice

If you read my post, this is exactly what I said, though for brevity I didn't point out that severance could be substituted in place of reasonable notice.

In any case, being given notice doesn't change the fact that an employer **is** allowed to fire employees without cause.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Dharl on 1/7/2009 2:03:32 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe this will help some understand...

Some businesses call this type of policy "Employment at Will". All employees, who are not bound by a contract or agreement, are subject to termination at anytime, for any reason, with or without cause or notice. Also employees, not bound by contract or agreement, are able to teminate employment at any time.

The major difference here is how does this differ from Canadian law and/or business policy.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By dj LiTh on 1/7/2009 5:00:51 PM , Rating: 2
yay i was right and voted down. Another day another dailytech post


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By theapparition on 1/7/2009 8:00:51 AM , Rating: 1
Nope not correct at all. As MAsher pointed out, right to work states give the employee-employer standing specific language regarding thier relationship.

An employee can choose to stop working at any time for the employeer, and conversely, and employeer can at any time decline the services of an employee and dismiss them.

No cause is necessary and I hate to break it to you, but no severance is required either. There are of course exceptions based on each state, for example, some states require any company over X number of employees must give notice, a company cannot lay off Y% of thier workforce without paying severance, etc.

But the short version is that you can pretty much go into work tomorrow, and be told to go home. No reason necessary.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By tastyratz on 1/7/2009 9:37:26 AM , Rating: 2
I think we are getting caught up in wording.

"Terminate the employment relationship" or laying off is not the same as firing.

It's my understanding that being layed off because the employer chooses to no longer require your services is different from a "firing" where their termination is a direct result of their conduct.

This is also reflected in most unemployment offices as many of them will not distribute benefits if someone was fired, but will allow you to collect if you were layed off.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from this story is that her reasons for removal are unjustified as they had a predetermined agreement for a non scheduled work day. There are probably many more details to this story, and that's not a legal problem... just bad press.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By jjunos on 1/7/2009 9:53:34 AM , Rating: 2
True, but as I posted above, it was more the fact that being "fired WITH cause" and "fired without cause" are two very different things.

"Fired" is not really the best word to use perhaps. Being fired sorta implies that you won't be getting any severance at all. In Canada, you can't be simply "fired" without cause with no severance: they must give you either X amount of notice or payment instead of notice.

So, yes, while today my work can tell me to go home cause I've been "fired without notice", they'd still be paying me for a certain amount of time still.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 10:09:51 AM , Rating: 2
> ""fired WITH cause" and "fired without cause" are two very different things."

You're still not expressing the situation properly here. Your original contention was that employees couldn't be terminated without cause in Canada. This is false. They can-- but in this case, they need to be given either notice or payment in lieu of notice.

What may be confusing you is the other case, in which employees are fired with cause, which doesn't require the employer to give notice. However, if an employer institutes a with-cause termination without actually having valid cause, that's a wrongful termination, and the employee has grounds for suit.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By KC7SWH on 1/7/2009 10:09:10 AM , Rating: 2
In Utah (not sure about other states or countries) the employee is on probation for the first 90 no cause needed for termination during that 90 days. Should she been expected to attend a staff meeting on her day off NO. Her employer should have notified her the previous day that even though it was her day off that she was expected at the meeting or when the staff meeting was announced it should have been listed as mandatory for all employees.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By glitchc on 1/7/2009 12:09:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In Utah (not sure about other states or countries) the employee is on probation for the first 90 no cause needed for termination during that 90 days.


Precisely. All workplaces have a probationary period. Some four weeks (gas station), some six, some eight, others twelve. Places like IBM have six-nine **months** of probation here in Toronto. In the current case, although the employer was rather asinine in their approach, termination without notice, while on probation, is perfectly legal.

With that being said, once the employee does become permanent, even if the employment is at-will, termination requires reasonable notice (esp. with cause if "good cause" is listed in employer's policy for termination, despite the contract) and any applicable severance, or reasonable pay in lieu of reasonable notice. This is at least true in Ontario.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By lordcheeto on 1/10/2009 1:14:53 PM , Rating: 2
There is nothing in the story that says whether or not she was required to be at the meeting. In any case, the employer tried to use the established methods to deliver the notification of termination, but ws unable to do so, and as such, it does not matter if it was "ethical".
This is what I would consider a "frivilous" lawsuit. The employer, I believe, is not required to issue the notice through any specific method, and as she was hired through facebook, I believe that firing her through facebook was fine.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By callmeroy on 1/7/2009 1:41:11 PM , Rating: 2
What you explain is similar to the Warren Act -- which applies to financial institutions at least, as it applied to me when my former employer (IndyMac Bank) was taken over by FDIC back in Sept '08.

Though there's no law that states an employer must pay severance, the Warren Act protected me. Basically because of the act I was told I must have minimum of 30 day notice (though i was given 60 day notice) -- the company could have me work out those 30/60 days or they could tell me not to report to work anymore..HOWEVER, If I was given 60 day notice and told to stop reporting to work on day 20...they would still have to pay me for 40 days (to equal 60 days).

Granted I believe the Warren Act only applies in specific cases though -- like when your company is forced to close...i could be wrong about this, but I know that's the reason it applied to me in this case.

But generally, in the USA severance is not required to be paid unless a contract was made about it before hand.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By callmeroy on 1/7/2009 1:52:07 PM , Rating: 2
oh yeah forgot to share my most bitter story on severance...worked for 10 years for a small company as IT...the company opened its doors in '95 I was hired in '96 , to give you an idea how I grew with the company we started with 15 people at the time of my layoff we were hitting about 150 people. I was the original IT guy who setup their phones, networking, documented everything, etc. etc.....when I was let go in late '05 --- not a drop of severance...not one dime....

I busted my arse for that place -- worked weekends (w/o pay because I was salary) to install the new network -- wee into the early AM hours....I was let go because they lost a lot of business...about 40% of their staff was let go over about 6 months..I was in the end phase.....but it still hit me hard with a feeling of betrayal.

I treated everyone there with professionalism and respect too --- until this happened...now if someone in my family asked me for some odd reason how key people from that company are doing I'd say something like "oh him-- yeah he's dead ....bus hit him".....just to make them laugh...its kind of a inside family joke with them and me now.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By oab on 1/7/2009 9:39:29 AM , Rating: 2
In Canada, it depends on the province. In Ontario (where I live for example), you cannot be fired without cause after 3 months (90 days) equivalent full-time work at 40 hours per week. That is your probation period.

If you are fired after that (and no cause is listed upon your termination) you are eligible for employment insurance, if you are fired before that, you are not eligible.

An employee working more than 90 days I believe also has the right to a severance package, dependent on how long they were an employee at the company. Typically it is two weeks pay, however this depends on if their wage was part of a collective bargaining agreement or if their employment contract states otherwise.

I believe in British Columbia the rules are mostly the same, as the same federal employment laws apply there, though there may be more local provincial laws which might intervene.

But if she was there for two weeks, and only two weeks, she can be totally thrown out the door with no consequences to the employer.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Regs on 1/7/2009 9:45:22 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think anybody knows. It's not one of those cases that has a precedence in court. Unless the legislative gets involved in new laws on firings, which I doubt, I really don't see a case here. The only case I would see is if the employer didn't follow up with her (office space), and she worked not knowing she got fired, and didn't get paid.

All this really is about is suing over insult.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Hiawa23 on 1/7/2009 10:36:27 AM , Rating: 2
You don't need a reason to fire someone, as many have been & are getting laid off, fired, whatever you want to call it due to economic conditions. Isn't that reason enough?


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By cs1323 on 1/7/2009 2:41:04 AM , Rating: 4
Sure, you probably can be fired without cause, but how do we really know it's not due to discrimination? Just a thought.

And yeah, since it was in her probationary period, she's probably not going to get compensation. If the reason why this lady got fired was due to missing a meeting on her day off, then that's pretty sad. But hey, it's a "spa" anyway.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By foolsgambit11 on 1/7/2009 6:07:15 PM , Rating: 2
She's not seeking compensation because she was wrongfully dismissed. She's seeking compensation because, in her opinion, the employer didn't treat her with the respect that she deserved in the notification of termination.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By AntiM on 1/7/2009 8:08:25 AM , Rating: 2
The debate isn't on whether or not she should have been fired. The controversy is in the manner in which she was notified. Although it may be cowardly and inhuman to use Facebook to tell someone they're fired, I don't see how it could be illegal.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Raidin on 1/7/2009 11:28:49 AM , Rating: 2
The way I read it, the employer wanted to tell her she was being let go at the meeting, but couldn't as she was off that day. She tried calling, but couldn't get through. She tried leaving voicemail at home, but the machine was full. So as a last resort, she went through the Facebook email system. Doing this because she wanted to get it done that night, so there was no other choice.

The fault lies within the employer's desire to get it done that night, so she could avoid doing it at work when other people were around.

So I'm thinking, it's bad enough the employer is actually avoiding doing it at work, but if she was willing to do it at the meeting, isn't there some private area at the office in the spa to do this? This whole situation seems very odd to me.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 12:11:05 PM , Rating: 2
Put the shoe on the other foot. If the employee sent an email to her boss saying "I quit", could she be sued for that? Simply because she didn't trouble to come to the office, find a nice private spot, then break the news as gently as possibly?

This double standard is becoming insanity. Why should an employer have some special onus to protect you from getting your feelings hurt?


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 1:46:11 PM , Rating: 2
didn't recent litigation allow a couple to get served with a court subpoena via Facebook for skipping out on loan payments?

it's the 21st century - can't get mad if companies (or law agencies) try to move into it.

it would be ironic if one of the reasons she was fired was for constant use of non-work related websites, such as Facebook, during work hours.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Quiescent on 1/7/2009 12:29:22 PM , Rating: 2
Who the heck leaves their voice message machine full anyways?! I mean, I can't stand it even when I see one unread email on my gmail account. I clear all the text messages I receive weekly, and I delete all voicemail on my cellphone. It would drive me crazy if it was full!


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Dreifort on 1/7/2009 1:47:27 PM , Rating: 2
o. c. d.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Chernobyl68 on 1/7/2009 12:03:52 PM , Rating: 2
when I last job I had, when there were staff meetings, all staff were required to attend - but usually it was on the schedule so people would know they needed to be there. absences would need to be worked out ahead of time.

Don't know what the case is in her situation, though.


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Quiescent on 1/7/2009 12:33:36 PM , Rating: 2
The cause isn't because she didn't attend the meeting at all.

I've been to one of those kinds of meetings where you're terminated in front of 90% of the people who work there. It was me who was terminated.

So basically, she missed the meeting in which they were going to terminate her, and since the employer wanted to get it done and over with, she tried every way possible to get it done that night.

Heck, really, if your cellphone has no minutes, then you should be leaving an alternative phone number anyways, especially if you know your FLIPPIN VOICE MESSAGE BOX IS FULL ON YOUR HOME PHONE!


RE: Fair Dismissal?
By Rodney McNaggerton on 1/7/2009 4:49:48 PM , Rating: 2
It sounds like a lame story anyways, but if she was hired over facebook then why couldn't she be fired over facebook? If a message was sent to her saying "You're hired come in on Monday" then why couldn't the same system be used to terminate her. If she had been hired in the normal fashion I would say that firing her over facebook would be in the wrong. As to whether or not it was a legitimate reason to be fired, that is up to you.


Stupid
By joex444 on 1/7/2009 12:37:26 AM , Rating: 5
Why can she be hired through a facebook message, but cannot be fired through the very same medium? She didn't have a problem being hired over facebook, why is this an issue?

FWIW, I not only was fired in an email, that was a reply to my email in which I told my boss I was quitting.




RE: Stupid
By Lonyo on 1/7/2009 12:48:55 AM , Rating: 2
I would presume she got in contact through facebook after seeing an ad, but then talked either on the phone or in person to get hired.
Just because you find an advert for a job in a newspaper doesn't mean it's fine to get fired by your employer putting another advert in the newspaper.


RE: Stupid
By Spivonious on 1/7/2009 8:30:23 AM , Rating: 3
lol that would be awesome. Open the paper one morning and see a big ad that says "Spivonious, you're fired."


RE: Stupid
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 10:12:17 AM , Rating: 2
> "Just because you find an advert for a job in a newspaper doesn't mean it's fine to get fired by your employer putting another advert in the newspaper."

A newspaper ad is a public forum. Being fired bears stigma. Combine the two, and you have potential grounds for defamation. That's a very different situation from a discrete termination via email or facebook message.


RE: Stupid
By Shadowself on 1/7/2009 10:54:03 AM , Rating: 2
I think it would have to come down to the probability of the action (the dismissal) being spoofed rather than any aspect of public versus private dismissal.

If an employer (boss) calls you into his/her office and tells you face-to-face that you're fired then there is no doubt at all about you actually being fired. The same can be said if the employer dismisses you face-to-face in the middle of the field at the Superbowl. You're still fired. You might have a defamation of character lawsuit, but you're still fired.

If the employer can show that it is extremely difficult for anyone but the employer to have sent the dismissal and it is extremely difficult for anyone but the employee to have gotten the dismissal then the employee probably does not have any case at all.

However, if it can be shown that the dismissal could have been faked by any number of people or that it could have easily been sent to the wrong person then the employee may have a case since she could not be certain through that medium that she was indeed fired.


RE: Stupid
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 11:51:09 AM , Rating: 2
That argument doesn't hold up. A civil suit requires damages. If your employer sends you a firing notice that you misinterpret to be a hoax, how have you been damaged? You never thought you were fired in the first place, so you can't claim pain and suffering. If you continued to show up for work and didn't get told to go home, you could theoretically sue for wages in that period -- but even that's a long shot.

Now take the other case, you are sent an actual hoax notice which you misinterpret to be the real thing. In that case, you clearly have a case -- but against the sender, not your employer.

The only possible grounds I can see here is for someone to claim that being fired by Internet is not only more damaging than being fired face-to-face, but that your employer has a legal obligation to terminate employment in the most humane manner possible.


RE: Stupid
By Shadowself on 1/7/2009 2:05:24 PM , Rating: 2
I guess we will have to just disagree on this point.

If you show up and do work and no one tells you you're fired, go home, then you provided services the company benefited from those services and you can definitely sue for those wages and will *very* likely win. A company cannot profit from your services and not reimburse you if the understood agreement is that they will reimburse you for your efforts.

Conversely, if you get an email that has been spoofed and you stay home, the company has every right to terminate you for cause. You believed something that the company did not say and you abrogated your position without company authorization.


RE: Stupid
By SeeManRun on 1/7/2009 12:53:40 AM , Rating: 2
I don't believe the same medium can always be used for good or bad news equally. You could get a fax telling you that your father has won an award by the city, but how would you feel if a fax was used to tell you of your loved ones death? One must consider the message first, and the method of communication second for that message.


RE: Stupid
By MrPoletski on 1/7/2009 4:46:48 AM , Rating: 2
"Not if I fire you first!"


RE: Stupid
By VoodooChicken on 1/7/2009 9:59:25 AM , Rating: 2
If you were fired instead of quitting on your own did you get severence?


Subtext tells the story
By Sunrise089 on 1/7/2009 1:55:45 AM , Rating: 3
Ok, this is one of those news bits that at first blush sounds a little outrageous - at least in poor taste if not illegal. But regardless of the human interest side (of course she's a single mother visiting her mom in the hospital), we've got a worker missing a meeting 2 weeks into her job, who makes no effort to inform the employer, lets her phone lapse or doesn't answer it, and doesn't check/clear her voicemailbox. I'm guessing she was just a flaky person from the get-go, and since it was a casual-ish job (hired to a spa via facebook probably means it didn't take an advanced degree to get the position), the employer just wanted the firing resolved quickly.

My problem is how much of the press-release is incorporated into the article. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some element of "sick mother" + "arrived at work thinking nothing was wrong" is probably untrue.




By Performance Fanboi on 1/7/2009 4:46:57 AM , Rating: 2
I was thinking along the same lines:

1) I don't know about anyone else but if I'm in my probationary period at a new job I make sure I avoid ditching any meetings unless I have a very good reason and notify my employer.

2) If she was worth keeping as an employee it would probably have taken more than this to dismiss her.

3) In this age of call display/cell phones/etc. it's probably not a real good idea to avoid calls from the office after you ditch a meeting during your probation.

As always there is more to this story than we will ever know but I don't think she acted like a person I would keep on staff either. If her ex-employer is smart they will issue a formal termination on paper A.S.A.P. to cover their butts on this one.


RE: Subtext tells the story
By drycrust on 1/7/2009 10:14:47 AM , Rating: 2
I cannot understand this company. The lady has a rostered day off work. The company could have rostered her on, but they chose not to. There isn't anything in the article that says they offered to pay her extra to attend the meeting. So not only is she legally entitled to not be at work, she is correct to not be at work. Work is demanding and it isn't safe for people to work 7 days a week.

I also wonder if the "staff meeting" was actually a disciplinary hearing. It sounds like it was, but that isn't what the article says. Why is not attending a staff meeting a dismissal issue? No explanation was given. If it was so important that people could loose their jobs, then minutes should have been taken.

Really, this company needs to get some serious professional help, both for management and for PR. The answers given to the reporter were seriously lacking in the normal justifications (e.g. theft, consistently turning up late for ones shift, etc) for dismissal. Not knowing the local labour laws, it is hard for me to know whether they actually did anything illegal, but this article displays the company as though they really lack management experience.


RE: Subtext tells the story
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 12:24:00 PM , Rating: 2
> "Why is not attending a staff meeting a dismissal issue? "

The article didn't claim that she was fired for missing the meeting, but simply that the firing was originally intended for that meeting. Furthermore, an employer can require you to attend a meeting on a day off. They only need pay you for the time itself, and only if you're an hourly wage employee.

> "The answers given to the reporter were seriously lacking in the normal justifications "

A company has no requirement to justify their acts to random reporters. In fact, if they did publicly state the cause, they might well be sued with cause by the employee in question, for revealing personal information.

> "Work is demanding and it isn't safe for people to work 7 days a week."

Odd. Barring the odd sabbatical now and then, I've been doing at least some work 7 days a week for the last 15 years. And I'd like to think my work is more demanding than working a counter at a spa.


HR
By romansky on 1/7/2009 12:15:03 AM , Rating: 4
Human Resources people = crap / fake personality

who needs em anyway...




RE: HR
By Regs on 1/7/2009 9:57:08 AM , Rating: 3
I really think they're for our personal amusement. They're like a legislative branch that refuses to pass any more laws and policies, yet want more taxes.


What happened to social skills?
By gaakf on 1/7/2009 12:18:54 AM , Rating: 4
Employers are losing their backbones, people ask each other out on dates via text messages, and some people considered their WoW buddies their closest friends. I just don't get the times I'm living in anymore...




By dj LiTh on 1/7/2009 5:31:02 AM , Rating: 2
the line starts 3 miles ------------------> that way


Really?
By Bonesdad on 1/7/2009 7:10:36 AM , Rating: 2
Bell was at the hospital with her sick mother during the staff meeting. She had no minutes left on her cell phone and no room for new voicemails on her answering machine at home. As a result, Woerhie chose to send a message to Bell's private Facebook inbox.

What, they don't have landlines at the hospital? C'mon...




RE: Really?
By CurseTheSky on 1/7/2009 9:59:25 AM , Rating: 2
They couldn't wait a day or two to contact her directly to tell her? I'm sure if they had waited until she could talk with them face to face, the fact that she was at the hospital with her sick mother would have been a good enough excuse not to attend the meeting. I understand not wanting to make a scene in front of customers and other employees, but this sounds like an employer that's just eager to get rid of a new employee as fast as possible to me.

Even without going to court, the fact that this is circling the Internet will do enough damage to the business's reputation - more importantly, I'm sure it'll be in the local newspapers in her area. Justice? Maybe...


RE: Really?
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2009 12:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
> "They couldn't wait a day or two to contact her directly to tell her?"

Perhaps the employee was nearing the end of her probation term, at which point additional restrictions would have kicked in. The employer might have actually given her more time than she deserved, hoping the situation would improve enough to warrant keeping her.

Or, even more likely, perhaps the employer is a struggling small business and can't afford to pay a worthless employee an extra couple of days wages, just to let her down easy.

I honestly don't understand this Hollywood-generated Business-Is-Evil mentality. A worker is free to quit at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice, and no matter how badly it may affect their employer. Consider that the next time you feel sorry for someone whose feelings were hurt by termination.

To me, this woman sounds like someone with a strong victim complex, and very likely a poor worker to boot, continually full of excuses at to why she was late, unable to work, and/or unable to complete assignments on time.


At least they didnt post to her wall
By ZachDontScare on 1/7/2009 2:01:17 PM , Rating: 2
If they couldnt reach her, sure, fire her by email. Mind you, if they were making her come in for a meeting on her day off, that doesnt sound like a place you'd want to work at anyways.

At least they didnt fire her by posting to her wall, which would have been public and embarrassing. THAT would have been a lawsuit.

But since it was private communications, I dont see how the manner (facebook, phone, email, etc) of the firing really matters.




By hameed on 1/8/2009 4:37:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I dont see how the manner (facebook, phone, email, etc) of the firing really matters.

My thoughts exactly...While it is not very friendly way but why don't you guys consider that the employer was actually thoughtful trying to avoid a scene and the embarrassment to everyone involved if she was fired in front of other staff/customers.


By ZaethDekar on 1/8/2009 12:12:48 PM , Rating: 2
Were I work I have had to come into meetings on my day off. Before it wasn't that bad, I lived 10 minutes away. Now I live about 40 minutes away, so it is a major pain. I actually had to call my manager a few days before my last meeting because I had plans already made for my days off (this was before the meeting was posted). They would have written me up if I couldn't prove I had the day planned before the meeting was announced.

However I am currently looking to work somewhere else, thus why I moved farther away.


Not sure...
By Rockjock51 on 1/7/2009 12:11:43 AM , Rating: 2
Not sure how I feel about this one. Seems lame, certainly, but I don't think it's worth suing over. She was okay with being hired over Facebook and didn't seem to care enough about her job to inform anyone that she wouldn't be attending the meeting. I feel like it's her responsibility to have some way to be contacted, and since she failed that with her phone.. maybe Facebook was the only way to get ahold of her short of waiting for her to come in and firing her on the spot.

Should have waited for her to come in, but I don't think it's worth suing over. Seems like a money grab.




Its a form of communication
By omegastudio on 1/7/2009 12:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
The way I see it, there is no positive way of knowing exactly why she was canned. If in fact she is suing because she was fired on facebook, it is absurd. Electronic communication as far as I know is a viable form of communication. So its in bad taste. Should the boss have had enough decency to do it face to face? I would prefer to have it done that way but oh well. Tough darts. After all, its not like it was the first choice of the employer to do it online. They tried the phone. If that is something that has legal bite to it then I am shocked.




Fedex
By Smilin on 1/7/2009 12:44:24 PM , Rating: 2
We had to fire a guy via signature-required letter sent by Fedex. He like went on vacation then never came back and would never answer his phone. Everyone was worried he got hurt or something at first. Signature indicated he was fine..just jobless :)




Inconsistent
By wvh on 1/7/2009 1:08:54 PM , Rating: 2
If you get hired through Facebook, you don't have a leg to stand on if you get fired the same way...




Wow
By sixeight on 1/7/2009 1:24:23 PM , Rating: 2
Very interesting.




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