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A turnaround in the PC industry isn't expected to happen anytime soon

In years, the launch of a new Windows operating system meant that computer makers could count on a nice uptick in sales as people bought new computers. With the launch of Windows 8, the same boost in PC sales seen in years past hasn't occurred.

The New York Times reports that customers continue to turn away from new Microsoft gadgets such as the Surface RT tablet, which has seen disappointing sales numbers so far. One consumer that the NYT talked to, named Claude Ballard, said that he was intrigued by the "eye-catching design Windows 8" but not enough to purchase a new computer.

Overall computer sales during the holiday season have been disappointing. Many consumers continue to purchase tablets which run iOS or Android.  Weak PC sales during the holiday season shows that Microsoft and other companies that depend on the computer industry won't see a major turnaround in sales anytime soon.

Acer president for the Americas division Emmanuelle Fromont has said that sales of Acer computers running Windows 8 have been lower-than-expected. He cites the operating system's unfamiliar design as one point that appears to be making consumers cautious.

“There was not a huge spark in the market,” Mr. Fromont said. “It’s a slow start, there’s no question.”

“I think everybody would have hoped for a better start,” said Stephen Baker, an analyst at research firm NPD. “The thing is, this market is not the same market that Windows 7 or Vista or even XP launched into.”

NPD estimates that within the U.S., 13% fewer Windows devices were sold from late October when Windows 8 launched through the first week in December compared to the same period of last year with Windows 7 machines.

Source: NYT



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Speaking only for myself...
By stevhorn on 12/24/2012 2:23:59 PM , Rating: 2
I have a tablet to do tablet things and a PC to do PC things. I'm not interested in a PC that does tablet things and there lies the problem with Windows 8. I think people look at Windows 8 PCs and think "Do I really want to invest time learning how this things works when all I want to do is write a letter or an email or work with Photoshop?" I think people will hold onto to their Windows 7 or XP pcs and see what's around the corner. I honestly can't see Windows 8 generating much excitement.




RE: Speaking only for myself...
By wookie1 on 12/24/2012 2:56:52 PM , Rating: 2
No kidding. I got a good deal on a new laptop, but it came with Win8. I am pretty lost on the UI, and it switches between the tile mode and something closer to the old desktop, but there are enough changes that I have no idea how to use it. I couldn't figure out how to power down, you need to go to some hidden settings menus to do that. No more start button in the bottom left corner. I'm sure one day I'll be familiar with it and maybe it's better, but as time passes, I get sick of having to learn everything all over again. I'm still not very good at Office 2010.


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By JohnWPB on 12/24/2012 11:06:23 PM , Rating: 2
The answer of course is to wipe Windows 8 off of that new machine, and install windows 7 or XP on it.

What is the sense in having to learn a completely new OS, that screams at you that your doing it wrong, when MS knows that the only thing you should learn is the new touch system ( which of course you do NOT like to begin with ).

MS will spin their sales figures for anyone who is willing to listen, but if YOU don't like their new OS, why should you have to buy it?

I'll say it again. Reformat, and stick on an OS that you know and like!


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By conejo99 on 12/26/2012 4:41:10 AM , Rating: 2
I'm in the same situation. I got my daughter a windows 8 notebook and spent hours doing a few things like removing McAfee and installing VLC. The notebook doesn't have a DVD and I've never installed an OS without an optical drive and am afraid I'll get into it only to discover I can't find some drivers.
I'm not a Microsoft hater (I own Microsoft stock), but this has left a very bad taste in my mouth and I'll go out of my way to avoid Windows 8 in the future.


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By Rukkian on 12/26/2012 1:28:04 PM , Rating: 2
I just upgraded my main computer to win8 just to mainly play with it from Win7 Ult. I am a computer tech for a profession, and have been been for many years.

I like to stay up to date and thought it couldn't be that hard to figure out. I did the upgrade (which went very well), but after 1 week am still fumbling around trying to figure out how to do things that used to be very simple. I am not sure why it needs to go back to the old desktop to launch apps, and it just makes it more complicated that I then have to go back to the start screen all the time.

I am sure I will figure things out, but it should not be this difficult. It may be great for a touch interface, but so far is utter crap for a mouse and keyboard.


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By Labotomizer on 12/27/2012 9:23:49 AM , Rating: 2
I fail to see how you can't use it after a week if you're a "computer tech". How long have you been involved with systems? I run it on my main work laptop, largely for HyperV 3, and haven't ever had problems finding what I need. In fact I find it works very similar to Windows 7. Of course I don't shutdown the system. And if I did, I'd close the lid and let it go to sleep as I did with Win 7. On my home desktop my daughter found the power options, and she was still 6 when it came out btw, without any guidance from my part. Granted, she's quite sharp for a 7 year old now, but it's kind of sad she did it and you're paid to know how to use systems.

Also, if you've been a "computer tech" for more than a year or so, you show a surprising lack of ability to further your career and expand your knowledge, making your statements entirely plausible.


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By crispbp04 on 12/26/12, Rating: 0
RE: Speaking only for myself...
By Rukkian on 12/26/2012 2:52:30 PM , Rating: 2
I dont normally feed trolls, but here you go.

It is not about being able to figure it out, as I can figure it out, just does not seem very optimized for desktop use. It takes more clicks to get to anything. Would probably be awesome on a touchscreen, but the last thing I want to do is reach out and touch a monitor on my desktop. I currently have my main gaming rig hooked up to a 42" LED and while it is close, it is no where near close enough to use touch, even if it was touch compatible.

I know I could switch things back to a win7 look, but then why have win8 in the first place. I am working through it and figuring things out but it just does not seem optimized. While, I understand that some techinical things may need to be harder to get to in order to make other things easier, if it truly was a better interface, my 12yo and my wife would not need to ask me how to get to things, it should be intuitive, but at this point it just is not.

IMHO, it is not about being able to figure it out, it is that is should not need to be figured out, it should be intuitive and make sense. I am sure I will eventualy figure everything out, but right now it is just a pain to get to things that I use the computer for (mainly gaming, but also documents and internet).


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By stevhorn on 12/27/2012 6:10:55 AM , Rating: 2
Hey, Genius, maybe you ought to learn to read. You obviously are unable to comprehend the point that's being made here.


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By marvdmartian on 12/27/2012 9:00:00 AM , Rating: 2
I have heard, more than once (since Win8 came out) that people I know are holding off buying a new desktop or laptop computer, SOLELY because of Windows 8. Microsoft didn't do anyone any favors by pushing computer manufacturers to put Win8 on all new computers, versus sticking with Win7.

And while you COULD wipe out the OS, and install Win7 OEM (oftentimes on sale, at Newegg, for $80), that sort of kills the whole "I got a great deal on this" thing, doesn't it?

A better idea would have been for MS to allow a free upgrade to Win8, from Win7, much the way they did from Vista to 7 when it came out. Stick with a tried & true OS, but give people the option.

Personally, I'll either wait until Win9 comes out, find something with Win7, or go the route of getting an Android tablet. Way to go, Microsoft!


RE: Speaking only for myself...
By kmmatney on 12/26/2012 4:48:13 PM , Rating: 2
I installed Win8 on my work machine (Dell Inspiron 17R Special Edition). I was having trouble with sleep/hibernate with windows 7 x64, so rolled the dice with a $15.00 Windows 8 upgrade. It was a good move, as now sleep/hibernate both work. For me, productivity is better than Windows 7, since I installed "classic start menu" in windows XP/2000 mode, and now have a useful start menu. I just avoid the whole Metro UI , so to me Windows 8 is just a refined WIndows 7, with a better start menu.


Tablets are fun but way overrated
By max_payne on 12/24/2012 9:34:11 AM , Rating: 2
One of the problem is that most family already own a computer of some sort. Since they last so long and are so powerful, there is not much incentive to change. Certainly the new unfamiliar Windows look has rebuke a lot of people.
That said, there quite a great demand for tablet for its convenience in quick surfing/email and portability but that said no one would ditch their computers to solely use tablets. To think that a 7-10 inches tablet will replace a 15/27 inches screen run by a 4 cores, 1 terabyte of space, multiple i/o ports, great keyboard is bad judgment. No one around me is ready to do that. They bought tablets for the look and fun but it is now sitting in the living room table while they have return to their laptop/desktop computers.




RE: Tablets are fun but way overrated
By deksman2 on 12/24/2012 10:09:34 AM , Rating: 3
Meh... computers are technologically outdated compared to where our practical scientific knowledge is (along with the premise we are still using inefficient materials to make them).

Putting that aside, while it is accurate that a large portion of people have computers that suit most of their needs, I would surmise that on top of computers doing most of everything majority right now wants, people simply cannot afford new systems on a regular basis.

The financial crisis is increasing... automation is taking over in all aspects and no one is irreplaceable in that regard.
Its becoming that much easier, faster and cheaper to make a machine and automate specific tasks (which is what Humans do now on jobs) than it is to train a Human to do it.

Money is increasingly becoming tight to come by, and they wonder why sales aren't improving?

Windows 8 (as confusing as their UI may be) is just a part of the problem (one that made a negative impression before it even launched).

Finally - I'm sick of coming to web-sites that are supposed to report news about technology, only to end up reading financial reports and how much companies keep making.


RE: Tablets are fun but way overrated
By Ammohunt on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
By drlumen on 12/26/2012 12:54:13 PM , Rating: 2
While a small portion of the drop in sales may be the economy I don't think that is the primary reason. I have the money to invest in a new desktop but why spend the money to gain ~10%-20% in speed only to have that increase effectively evaporate by moving to an unfamiliar OS, incompatible drivers, software compatibility issues, etc.?

I do see a paradigm change in computers happening. While the makers are still touting the new, fastest tech to try to drum up sales, about the only need for powerful desktops in the home is for gaming. Who really needs a top of the line system to check email? I believe it's been this way for a while but I think people are finally becoming numb or jaded to the marketing hype.

For myself, about the only time I would like a faster system is when doing rendering of video files. But, I can also farm those render jobs out across a few slower systems. So, in the end, I find that I really don't need a faster system.

Just my pair-a-dimes... (inflation)


RE: Tablets are fun but way overrated
By TSS on 12/26/2012 7:37:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Finally - I'm sick of coming to web-sites that are supposed to report news about technology, only to end up reading financial reports and how much companies keep making.


Yknow it's too bad it's not a proper economic piece too. I'd love to read more about economics - mostly it's because i know what kind of insane state it's in right now. But i like to keep my food seperate, for my news i'd like the same.

There's plenty of tech to be found in economics, such as high frequency trading and mini flash crashes that have been occurring.

DT pretty much only retypes articles anyway (and pretty poorly too at times) so why not add zerohedge to the source pool? you don't have to belive them, but it's a good place to start (i met NANEX through them). Just look at the damn charts and tell me it's normal for that to occur.

Here's a good place to start i'd say:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-21/how-10000...

Why isn't that reported on huh? It's got tech (no human trades that fast), it's one big financial risk to markets (what if the next time, it won't come back up again?), and it's a helluva lot more interesting then yet another microsoft earnings report. They survived Windows ME, they'll survive windows 8.


Not so fast...
By EricMartello on 12/24/12, Rating: 0
RE: Not so fast...
By Pirks on 12/24/2012 6:48:10 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It hasn't always worked (bing)
It worked with Bing too, their quarterly losses get smaller and smaller, they are almost breaking even these days. Huge progress from 3 years ago when it was a money sucking black hole.


tiles
By talikarni on 12/24/2012 5:40:08 PM , Rating: 2
This story is correct, people want WINDOWS, not TILES. If they want a tile-type desktop, they will buy a tablet, or touchscreen. Otherwise, they should have left us with the well known and (usually) loved Windows graphical interface, or at least give us the choice upon install for first bootup (like it did in beta).

A lot of people complained plenty just because of a graphical change from XP to Vista, no wonder they refuse to switch to something completely different than ever before on a desktop. I am a long time tech and still refuse to upgrade, I usually skip every other "upgrade" (ME, Vista, now Win8).




there is always a demand...
By Silver2k7 on 12/25/2012 6:07:04 AM , Rating: 2
thought that demand might be for a new computer, not for a new operating system.




The PC market is not the same
By MarioJP on 12/25/2012 1:51:07 PM , Rating: 2
There is just too many technological explosions from every angle. Even if windows 8 was liked. I highly doubt that would change the outcome. I have friends and family claiming that "my ipad is all i need" Their laptops are probably collecting dust. I don't think Traditional computers are dying. This just means that people needs have changed.

As for me I could see why MS went this route though upset the old generation of pc users. When i upgraded from 7 to 8 on my laptop. it was no brainer navigating. I think the media really took things to far than it actually is. I've been on 8 since day one and when i got a windows 7 laptop to work on.

Big difference i never want to go back to 7 ever again. The new task Manager in Win8 alone smokes 7 task manager. Aside from that. Windows 8 just feels more polished and tightly integrated. I have already bought gaming apps that are addicting.

I mostly spend my time on the desktop running all my desktop programs like i did with win7. But the new windows app store is just icing on the cake. The new win8 UI does not bother me one bit. So i really don't understand the issue of "if i want a tablet i'll buy a tablet to do tablet things i want my desktop to do desktop things" argument. What a moot argument because win8 is practically both. the windows store alone is whats keeping me on windows 8. I have apps that eliminates having to use the web browser and makes it tightly integrated with my system. So there you go. Also win8 is not another vista.

So win 8 for some they h8 while to me win8 is gr8. Not going back to 7.




No surprise.
By Scannall on 12/25/2012 2:32:36 PM , Rating: 2
Not a whole lot of people rush out an buy a new computer just because the OS was upgraded. If a computer does everything you want, then why buy a new one? They have been fast enough for most people for a very long time now, so there is no pressing need for new hardware for most people.




Well...
By jharper12 on 12/26/2012 10:59:35 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe PC manufacturers aren't selling more PCs because we're almost at the point where it's easier to get a 1920 x 1080 screen on your phone than on your laptop. I want a touch screen ultrabook convertible with mobile broadband, at least a 1600 x 900 screen and 6+ hour battery life, who wants to guess how many of those are currently on the market? So far I've found that Toshiba allegedly sells a model with available mobile broadband and it should be around $1,745. Problem is, I haven't found a single one with mobile broadband for sale online or in stores.

Before I hear a bunch of people saying, "Blah blah blah, tether with your phone, blah blah blah." I have my phone and two mobile hotpots. I use all three connections regularly. Call me lazy, but I just want to turn on my laptop and start writing an e-mail within thirty seconds. That would be much easier to do if I didn't also have to dig out a hotspot and turn it on too.

Microsoft, I don't care what consumers you polled, so WHAT if people don't use mobile broadband in their current tablets. If you want to sell a pro version of surface for $1k+ you need mobile broadband at least available. I'll pay and extra $100 to $200 for it. I'm not spending $1k to get a wifi only Surface tablet, you worthless idiotic buffoons. You can't use market research on existing tablets when you're launching a completely different kind of product for a price tag that's double the competition. People who spend $500 on a tablet may not pay for mobile data on it. People who spend $1k on a tablet are probably more likely to spring for the data.

I have wanted to buy an ultrabook for six months now. I haven't bought one because manufacturers aren't offering what I want. If PC makers want to sell more computers, maybe they should build the computers people want to buy.




By Tuberocity on 12/26/2012 2:03:28 PM , Rating: 2
As it stands, you must have actual Windows 7 Pro discs in order to revert to Windows 7 should 8 not be your cup of tea. If manufacturers, and Microsoft made it easier to revert to windows 7 home premium, I'm certain sales would increase of the OS itself, and computers in general. I own a laptop with Win 7 Premium, have the discs, but if I upgrade to 8, I must obtain the Pro discs somewhere to enable going back? This is rediculous. At $49 I may try the new system, but I want an easy solution to revert to what I already own, which is Windows Home Premium 64. As it stands, this is basically impossible. Also, current updates seem to be causing problems, and some are based on, or are part of Windows 8. I'm steering clear of 8 as most do in the first year of a newly released system. Windows 8 looks to be Microsoft's answer to Android and is highly tied to touchscreen based computers of which I do not have. Until Touch screens in the 20" to 23" range are released at a base cost comparable to non touch screens, I'm afraid Windows 8 will continue to suffer.




Suggestion for MS
By bitmover461 on 12/27/2012 10:22:47 AM , Rating: 2
Windows 8 would be significantly better if I could do ONE THING; configure it to boot to the desktop. The start screen makes sense on a tablet, but not a desktop.




The biggest issue
By Labotomizer on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: The biggest issue
By Articuno on 12/24/2012 9:18:30 AM , Rating: 5
Yes, the reason why Microsoft had to cut their Surface orders in half was because people want them oh so much.


RE: The biggest issue
By Labotomizer on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: The biggest issue
By Articuno on 12/24/2012 10:19:43 AM , Rating: 1
That isn't a valid reason either; Microsoft spent $400 million advertising it. People just don't want a $400 tablet with a poor quality keyboard and inferior OS slapped on top of it, is it really that hard to understand?


RE: The biggest issue
By damianrobertjones on 12/24/2012 5:02:27 PM , Rating: 3
Billions of people want tablets and as I own a 64Gb surface I know that. The keyboard is also quite good.

Maybe you're just trying to ustify your 'narrow' point of view


RE: The biggest issue
By macca007 on 12/25/2012 3:00:24 AM , Rating: 2
Looking to upgrade my old ipad 1 but seriously no way I would consider surface or a new ipad to be honest, Android tablets seem to be the craze! Android OS is not shit anymore, I just dumped my iphone 3gs for a galaxy note 2 and Jelly Bean absolutely shits on iOS, Looking at Windows 8 it looks like not many are interested in it. I still don't see any reason to upgrade my desktop to Windows 8 either, Hate to say it but MS screwed up this round, Windows 9 will be where it's at!


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/25/2012 6:01:57 AM , Rating: 1
I understand Android phones as they offer things like larger screens. It is at the expense of better applications or faster hardware but it is an ergonomic choice that I get. Android tablets make zero sense to me right now, not until developer support and the hardware catches up. The iPad 4 absolutely smokes everything else out there and the gulf in tablet app selection and quality only continues to widen. Again, I don't get the appeal of Android tablets given the state that they're in. I know several people with Android phones that also own iPads, and its mainly for the reasons I mentioned.

The problems with WinRT tablets are spot on though, lackluster hardware and developer support that will take time to catch up. The latter is purely based on adoption, because Microsoft's SDK is actually quite good,


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/25/2012 7:56:31 AM , Rating: 1
"I don't get the appeal of Android tablets "

Of course you dont. You are an Apple fan. Duh.

For those of us that prefer OS over apps, he said it above, and this is the part that you dont get "Jelly Bean absolutely shits on iOS". IOS is done. It's old and haggard and BADLY in need of a facelift and some new features. OF course you dont see it and of course you dont agree, but then again, you are here to talk up Apple so dont bother.


RE: The biggest issue
By Donkey2008 on 12/25/2012 1:17:59 PM , Rating: 2
Give the world a break Android fanboys. Many people like simplicity and stability. iOS developer support is solid, the app selection is solid, the entire experience is solid. Why all of you Android fanboys constantly get your panties in a bunch and start hurling insults over iOS is beyond me. Get a life.


RE: The biggest issue
By xti on 12/25/2012 2:06:20 PM , Rating: 2
i really like my android phone. I hate that new games get to to iOS months before they hit android. Simpsons tapped, FF4, etc.

so as an android phone user, i am actually discouraged to get an android tab, because I had already had discontent with things on the google play store. I dont want alternative apps, i want the stupid one my wife has on her ipad. Or i want a specific game to kill 5 minutes of my time on the toilet.

apple store > google play, maybe not by a ton like it used to be, but its still frustrating.

and wtf @ kies. iTunes runs circles around it and everyone knows how iTunes is horrible. its like the thing no one ever wants to admit.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/25/2012 6:14:26 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty much everything I have on my iPad is not on Android tablets, and most of it is apparently never going to Android. Days Of Wonder and numerous other German games (gotta have my Ticket To Ride and Dominion), my photo apps, the awesome game SolForge that I'm beta testing right now, all of the Epic games, Ascension, Reeder, Alien Blue (better for browsing Reddit than even a desktop web browser), and a bunch of other apps like it. Games like Baldur's Gate still don't have a release date on Android even though its supposed to be coming eventually.

Hardware is another thing, the iPad 4 benches faster than the iPad 3 (2x faster GPU performance), and the iPad 3 was faster than any Android tablet on the market. I dunno man, the gap in apps and performance is so wide right now, bigger than I ever thought it would be.


RE: The biggest issue
By ihateu3 on 12/26/2012 5:30:44 AM , Rating: 2
"and the iPad 3 was faster than any Android tablet on the market"

Um... So your saying the iPad 3 is faster than the Nexus 7????


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 4:41:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Um... So your saying the iPad 3 is faster than the Nexus 7????


http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6054/47745...

Yuuuuup


RE: The biggest issue
By dark matter on 12/26/2012 7:58:31 AM , Rating: 2
Sure, Kies is terrible.

How about using something else then. Even file manager.

What are your options with Apple. iTunes, or, ummmm, iTunes.

On Android you can use anything.

Do try harder.


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/26/2012 10:13:40 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. That is one of the great things about android that you cant do with Apple. Plug in your phone to a computer where the flash rom detects as any USB flash drive and assigns a drive letter to copy files - any files. You dont need iTunes or any app to get files, musinc, whatever to your phone.


RE: The biggest issue
By jimbojimbo on 12/26/2012 12:52:12 PM , Rating: 2
You don't even need to do that really. Many file managers support SMB or CIF shares so you can just connect to any share on the network and copy right away. I use Sync Me to just automatically sync various folders on my tablet to my NAS so I don't have to do anything really. Android gives us amazing flexibility!
Every Apple fan just goes on about the number of tablet optimized apps they have compared to Android but it's an invalid argument. Yes, Sync Me isn't optimized for tablets but it works JUST FINE as it is. Who cares if it isn't? The apps that need to be optimized for tablets are getting updated so I don't think that argument is valid at all. All the apps that I would like to be optimized for tablets already are so I'm completely satisfied and I'm a power user.
By the way, with the SPen the Note 10.1 is incredibly handy and can do many things that no pad can do.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 4:49:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You don't even need to do that really. Many file managers support SMB or CIF shares so you can just connect to any share on the network and copy right away. I use Sync Me to just automatically sync various folders on my tablet to my NAS so I don't have to do anything really. Android gives us amazing flexibility!


And there are apps that do the exact same thing on iPad, they've been around for quite a while. It makes sense given that tablet development is so big on the platform. I don't see you and retrospooty are claiming these "unique" apps and features for Android when they've been on the iPad since around when it was released.

I expect ignorance here but come on, at least try to know what you're talking about before arguing about it...


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 4:43:55 PM , Rating: 2
As you keep ignoring, "there's an app for that".

Look at what two seconds searching found, and there are other apps like it: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/usb-flash-drive-+/...

What's your next excuse?


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/26/2012 9:12:56 PM , Rating: 2
That was kind of the point. you need to go out and find an app and download it just to copy a freaking file to your device.


RE: The biggest issue
By xti on 12/27/2012 4:38:07 PM , Rating: 1
people still copy files to their phone? thats such a dying "OMG you cant do that on iphone" things now...


RE: The biggest issue
By xti on 12/27/2012 4:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
i do use something else. i use media monkey. its awkward but it works. meh.

and you can use pretty much those winamp style programs for BOTH apple and android phones...you are not limited to itunes for apple products, thats just a lie. I was however limited to kies for the Jelly Bean update because ATT i guess didnt allow ota.

they are just things that the mass apple haters blatantly hide. i love my gs3...im just not gonna be a hater for the sake of a phone...

do try hardererer.


RE: The biggest issue
By xti on 12/27/2012 4:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
i do use something else. i use media monkey. its awkward but it works. meh.

and you can use pretty much those winamp style programs for BOTH apple and android phones...you are not limited to itunes for apple products, thats just a lie. I was however limited to kies for the Jelly Bean update because ATT i guess didnt allow ota.

they are just things that the mass apple haters blatantly hide. i love my gs3...im just not gonna be a hater for the sake of a phone...

do try hardererer.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/25/2012 6:04:02 PM , Rating: 3
Dude, I even gave reasons why someone would take and Android phone over an iOS one and you still freak out over my post.

The are objective disadvantages to Android tablets right now, namely slower hardware and poor developer support. JB being "superior" for no specific reasons aside from "hurr durr Apple" doesn't change any of that. A "facelift", funny that you look at the superficial rather than the practical.

I own hardware from loads of companies and have bought into nearly every ecosystem. You on the other hand have a very hard time seeing past anything with the Android name on it.

Btw, who buys an OS without good developer support? Do you also run Linux at home?


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/25/2012 6:54:58 PM , Rating: 2
First off, I didnt "freak out". I am simply responding to your usual one sided view of things. You said "Android tablets make zero sense to me right now" as you lamented as if there is no reason anyone would buy an Android tablet. There are reasons. Not that Android tablets are better. In that arena iPad certainly has the advantage in apps and GPU, but that isnt the entire picture. If one were looking for the best tablet in the $500 range, iPad is it, easily... But look at other areas and Android tabs do have a place and a good one at that. Most people want internet, email and a few apps, maybe e-reader. A $200 Google Nexus does the job perfectly at 40% the price. Not that its a better tablet, but for what most people do, its a WAY better value. It has a place that is all I am saying, while also commenting on your constant bias that gets tiring. I know you are bright enough and well informed enough and know the whole picture, yet you still paint with Apple centered goggles.

"I own hardware from loads of companies and have bought into nearly every ecosystem. You on the other hand have a very hard time seeing past anything with the Android name on it."

I do? Really? You know about zilch about me, so dont make that assumption. Again, I post in favor of Android for 2 reasons. 1. When responding to you, I am always pointing a counter to your bias and 2. Right now, and I do mean right now only, Android is the best smartphone platform out period. Hands down by a large margin for power users. For beginners and people that play games, iPhone is better. I hold no favor or allegiance for android, the second something better comes out I will buy it.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/25/2012 8:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
Fair enough on the tablets, my head was in the 10" range. For smaller $200 tablets, absolutely, devices like the Nexus 7 are totally legit. Of course, if reading is the primary use then I'd recommend a Kindle Paperwhite over anything else. My favorite tech gadget still, it does only one thing but it does it SO well. :)

quote:
Android is the best smartphone platform out period.


As usual, debatable. You get larger screens, which again is a legit reason to get one. You're also getting hardware with less battery life (an iPhone 5 gets 2x the LTE/wifi browsing time of a GS3 or Note 2) and slower CPU/GPU performance (close enough in the high end to not matter as much, obviously, but then again Android doesn't have many apps that push the hardware either). Apps really are the big thing, and so long as iOS continues to be the #1 target development platform I'll stick with it.

Fiddling with the UI is secondary to me, I actually like to use my stuff.


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/25/2012 8:30:40 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, agreed to some of that... Stop hand picking battery benchmarks and throw in support for SD card, NFC, flexible res, removable battery, mini HDMI, micro USB and you have a deal =)


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 5:05:52 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, how about I hand pick performance benchmarks and app quality instead? ;)

Losing an SD card slot and removable battery (who needs one when you get double the battery life on an iPhone?) are more than acceptable compromises.

Again, unless you need a big screen like on the Note 2 or are on a limited budget and get a Nexus 4, then I don't see the point. All I see are huge downgrades otherwise.


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/26/2012 9:16:54 PM , Rating: 2
Well I have to hand it to you, you're absolutely right. If you selectively ignore all the negatives of Apple and concentrate on all the negatives of Android and likewise ignore all the positives of Android and concentrate on all the positives of Apple then by all means Apple is the best platform. Solid sound logic you have there. =)


RE: The biggest issue
By ihateu3 on 12/26/2012 5:49:11 AM , Rating: 1
Lets also not forget all those generations of Apple products that did not even offer LTE. Thats a super new technology to them!!! Shit the original iPhone did not even support 3g, while its competitor (HTC Touch) did... Actually the iPhone was the competitor to the HTC Touch, as the HTC Touch came out prior, even with a touchscreen, you would imagine that even back then any smartphone user would need 3g, and on Apple's end, trying to compete with a 3g smartphone without including it on your own offerings is just unthinkable, and not very innovative...

When they finally add NFC to the iPhone (just like LTE, how many years behind now?), Apple will claim innovation...

Apple needs a restructuring of their company. You cannot sue your way past real innovation forever, disregarding your own development, its suicidal.

Apple's real innovation was targeting the less techie crowd, that did not need all the extra power, features,replaceable battery, SD cards, etc. The crowd they targeted seen the device as a fashion accessory, and throw away product, buying the next version as soon as it came out for ultra new hipness and more storage (plus new battery, to their aging one). That is their innovation, they are very good at making a consumer product that anyone can use,and where very good at making ppl believe it was cool (they are losing that touch now). Those strong points are what they should be focusing on.

I still do not condone the way Apple does business...


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/26/2012 10:00:45 AM , Rating: 2
"Apple's real innovation was targeting the less techie crowd"

LOL... I know.

I remember the press conference when they announced the iPhone5 and its new larger screen. So it goes from small 3.5 to widescreen 4 inch 16x9 format like every other phone out there and they say "one of the exiting new things we have is an additional row of icons the new screen proved space for (the crowds oohs and ahhs). Wow, what innovation. "Thank you Apple for providing us with another row of icons for the home screen, you are so amazing." ROFL.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 5:01:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lets also not forget all those generations of Apple products that did not even offer LTE. Thats a super new technology to them!!! Shit the original iPhone did not even support 3g, while its competitor (HTC Touch) did


That is because LTE chips before this summer were battery draining pigs. If Apple put an LTE chipset in the iPhone 4S then it would have cut battery life in half from the iPhone 4. That would have been unacceptable given how important battery life is for them. They instead waited for 28nm LTE parts to be released and then they put them in the iPhone 5. The result is that the iPhone 5 has double the LTE browsing time of phones like the Galaxy S3: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6330/50475...

The only other phones that did well were the HTC One X, which also uses the same LTE parts, and the huge Motorolas that make up for inefficient parts by using massive batteries.

LTE was almost unusable because of its massive drain on battery, but when Apple impliments it they do it in such a way that they get over eight hours of LTE browsing time with it, all while reducing the weight and volume of the device.

You have a very one-dimensional view of things if you can't recognize that execution matters at least as much as features. Who needs a replaceable battery when you get twice as much browsing time, as well as much higher performance (the iPhone 5 runs circles around everything else right now) and better applications in a smaller device?


RE: The biggest issue
By ihateu3 on 12/26/2012 7:54:37 PM , Rating: 2
Why would it be an issue to allow the end user to replace the battery if they wanted to? Whats the issue with adding an SD card slot? And why have they not embraced NFC, obviously not because of any battery probs with it...


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 9:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
Both replaceable battery enclosures and SD card slots increase the size of the device. The iPhone 5 barely has enough room for soldered on-board memory and an integrated battery, let alone ones with mounting and a cover. As for NFC, I'm assuming security is the biggest reason why it hasn't been used yet. Android is already packed with security holes and NFC is the latest one that has popped up.

Google for it and numerous articles like this pop up: http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/07/android-no...

Either way, if replaceable batteries and SD cards are on your must-have list then there are plenty of other phones out there. It is at the expense of performance, battery life, and developer support. Every platform has its pros and cons.


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/26/2012 9:27:19 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, you're really full of excuses tonight aren't you? I wonder, do you pre rehearse them or just come up with them on the fly?

let's just not think about the fact that every other manufacture on planet Earth had 4g faster than Apple by 2 years and a managed to make it work. They also seem to manage to work in SD cards removable battery, NFC,mini HDMI, and any size screens that vary in resolution without being stuck with a few ridiculous non standard resolutions. What is it stuck at,1136x640? I wonder how to get around that limitation and what your excuse will be when they don't? meanwhile the competition passes them by on yet another front.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/25/2012 8:25:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I do? Really? You know about zilch about me, so dont make that assumption.


Great, so don't use "Apple fan" to dismiss completely legitimate and objective statements regarding pros and cons of platforms.


RE: The biggest issue
By retrospooty on 12/25/2012 8:33:43 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, when I see you ignoring the many good points of a competing platform and only concentrating on the good points of apple you get that title.


RE: The biggest issue
By dark matter on 12/26/12, Rating: 0
RE: The biggest issue
By melgross on 12/24/2012 10:46:48 AM , Rating: 5
You're making up your own story for what's happening. Some people are looking for an excuse for what's happening. There's enough product out there. Makers have been stating, just as Acer has, that demand is low. Why bother to deny it?

You want to bring up Surface? Fine. People aren't interested. Sure, there has been some struggle to act as though availability is at fault, but it's not. If that was the problem, then reports of Microsoft cutting production by half wouldn't be all around the place. In addition, it's being sold on their website. If Apple can selling millions from their website, then so can Microsoft. The fact that they aren't, shows that the demand isn't there. The fact that Microsoft never tells how many devices or licenses they sell when sales are poor, is more proof.

Which reliable publications are writing articles about how demand is high for Win 8 computers, but that stock is too low? I haven't found any. Everything says the opposite.

The fact is that demand for Windows products has been problematic since the holiday quarter of 2010, when there was a big drop in sales. Tablets, particularly the iPad are having people hold on to their older machines longer, resulting in less upgrades. And now, people can just make do with a tablet, if their needs are basic. And guess what, many people just have basic computing needs, and the conveince of a tablet, again, particularly the iPad, is enough for them.

Microsoft's stupid Ads for the Surface isn't helping them either. What are they showing people about the tablet? That people can dance while clicking the keyboard, cover on. Wow! Just what people want, a tablet that needs a keyboard? Defeats the purpose of having a tablet, doesn't it?


RE: The biggest issue
By zaaf on 12/24/2012 12:35:25 PM , Rating: 3
Your comment on the ad's is spot on. Is this really showcasing the product? I have to say that I get annoyed watching the commercial. It's horrible. Too much clicking, people dancing around, and then swiping the screen sideways. What demand do they expect? Apple's ads are usually straight to the products highlights. Why is that so difficult for Microsoft to accomplish? Microsoft should fire whatever agency they use or any in-house marketing execs. How many times has this been stated before?

Sad thing is, I make a living supporting Microsoft products. But the writing on the wall is getting clearer every day. I'm typing this on an iMac and have to say that my negative views of Apple are starting to diminish. It really is what people want and they market it properly.

I do hate that you have to sell your soul to Steve Jobs with this thing, tho. Not only with cost, but everything you do has to be tied to your Apple account. And if they could just lighten up their stance on patent infringements... another story.


RE: The biggest issue
By Stephen! on 12/24/2012 4:36:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I do hate that you have to sell your soul to Steve Jobs with this thing, tho.


Well, no, since he's dead, it's kinda moot now.


RE: The biggest issue
By melgross on 12/24/12, Rating: 0
RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/24/2012 11:11:53 PM , Rating: 1
If you have everything tied into MS or Google accounts it isn't selling your soul, don't you see?

In the real world, some of us have accounts with MS, Google, and Apple, on top of other things like Dropbox, Crashplan, Sony, Nintendo, Amazon, Steam, etc etc.

On a side note, the latter two are among the most restrictive out there, especially Amazon with the Kindle, but I also think they're great and I love the services they provide.

Anyone saying that having an account for a service or ecosystem equates to selling their soul really needs to get their head examined.


RE: The biggest issue
By RufusM on 12/26/2012 9:52:53 AM , Rating: 3
I've made the Faustian bargain with Google and I'm waiting for the Googleplex to absorb my soul so I can become one with the Singularity.

Oh yeah, I've also sold my soul to Microsoft, Facebook and a number of other companies so they will all have to fight for my eternal allegiance, gladiator-style!


RE: The biggest issue
By Donkey2008 on 12/25/2012 1:28:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Your comment on the ad's is spot on. Is this really showcasing the product? I have to say that I get annoyed watching the commercial. It's horrible. Too much clicking, people dancing around, and then swiping the screen sideways.


Wait, Microsoft is selling a product in those commercials? I thought it was just 96.5% more wub wub.


RE: The biggest issue
By name99 on 12/24/2012 3:29:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Surface orders are down because of a lack of retail availability, not because people don't want them...There are around 60 MS stores where Surface was sold, including the pop up stores.


Are all these people who want to buy Surface unaware that there is this thing called the internet? Why don't they just buy them at surface.microsoftstore.com?

There is a point at which all this apologizing for Windows8 becomes just pathetic. If you like MS and want it to succeed, you are not helping your cause by maintaining the bubble of denial that MS has been in for eight or so years now. The way for MS to deal with the problem of almost everyone hating Win8 is by LISTENING to why people hate it and then CHANGING it --- not by making one excuse after another about why the people who hate it are wrong.


RE: The biggest issue
By wordsworm on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: The biggest issue
By macca007 on 12/25/2012 3:07:00 AM , Rating: 1
Not so sure about that, I bought my Note II purely off researching and watching vids on the net, Never held it in my hand at all, although I did make a paper cut out using it's dimensions just to be sure it wasn't gonna be too big for me. Note 2 wasn't even out in my country yet I managed to get one from overseas, Tablets are the same probably even easier as you don't have to check that the phone frequency is supported by your carrier in your country!


RE: The biggest issue
By 91TTZ on 12/24/2012 4:34:15 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Effect does not always equate to cause. Surface orders are down because of a lack of retail availability, not because people don't want them.


One moment we're reading articles on here stating that brick-and-mortar stores are dying because everyone's shopping online now.

The next moment we reading your claims that Surface isn't selling well because of their lack of availability at brick-and-mortar stores.

I guess in your mind people want Microsoft Surface really bad but not quite enough to go to www.microsoft.com where a giant Surface ad dominates the front page.

Also, I guess they can't be bothered to check out small mom-and-pop stores such as Best Buy and buy one in there:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?_dyncha...


RE: The biggest issue
By Labotomizer on 12/27/2012 9:16:44 AM , Rating: 2
Best Buy got them a week or so before Christmas, and no one knows they're being sold there. Also, at the Best Buy by my office the Surface RT is sitting in the middle of a bunch of Android tablets with a tag that reads "Microsoft Android Tablet 32GB", none of which is true. So it's even worse than it should be at Best Buy. Funny though. Which is why I said their commercials should include that they are now sold at other retailers.

As for why people don't go to Microsoft.com to buy the surface, one is it's a new device that people haven't touched. It's one thing to buy an iPad online when your friend has one that you'd already touched. And, let's be honest, most people don't even consider buying Microsoft anything from their website. They've always been about the distribution channels.

I also didn't state that's the only reason it hasn't done well, but let's be honest. It's a huge problem. I'm not "making up excuses". I have a MS pop up store at the mall not 1 mile from my office. I went in and checked it out. It's a cool device, but it's not enough for me to replace my Ultrabook/iPad combo. Perhaps the Surface Pro will be, and I'm hopeful on that end. But I didn't buy one. I was simply stating that it's a problem that is well documented by many reputable bloggers and even several articles on WSJ.

As for the other Windows 8 sales, there is high demand for touch enabled laptops and All-in-ones. I personally think both devices are stupid so I completely understand OEMs not expecting such a situation. There is even fear that because of the demand there will be shortages of touch screen displays next year as people try to meet the demand.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/24/2012 9:13:55 PM , Rating: 3
No, people just don't want Surface in any significant numbers. The Microsoft stores are ghost towns even though they are the only places you can get one. Meanwhile Microsoft spent over a billion marketing Windows 8 and about half a billion marketing Surface, and the only place you can get one are MS stores that nobody cares about. What idiots there are in charge of logistics and distribution? Terrible execution despite the fact that the market is still rejecting the product.

This apologism and spin in the face of reality is really weird, why are some of you so defensive about it?


RE: The biggest issue
By Labotomizer on 12/27/2012 9:19:50 AM , Rating: 2
Not defensive, offering up a key reason for why demand is so low. I've talked to numerous people interested in the device but wanted to use it first. Not unreasonable. Although far more are interested in Surface Pro. I am as well. I think it will be a good device. I also will likely wait for v2 later this year that's based on Haswell as I think it will be a substantially superior device. Especially if we can get a Thunderbolt dock system. At that point the potential is through the roof.

But defensive? No, not at all. I was simply pointing out a large factor in why it hasn't been more successful. You can believe whatever you'd like.


RE: The biggest issue
By Helbore on 12/24/2012 11:42:45 AM , Rating: 5
You do know that was nothing more than a rumour, right? As was the original quotes of how many Surfaces Microsoft originally ordered.

The only official statement on the matter was Microsoft saying they were actually ramping up production of the Surface. Of course, people will just say "well Microsoft would say that, wouldn't they?" And that might be true - but then it doesn't automatically mean we should take anything as gospel that has been stated by these know-nothing online "analysts."

Remember, these are the same people who didn't know the Surface existed. They're the same people who claimed the Surface would launch for $200. They're the same people who then thought it would launch for $1000 simply because some random European e-tailer put it on their website.

These online "reports" are no better than random gossip and guesswork, perpetuated by bloggers who are pretending to be serious journalists. Its all garbage.


RE: The biggest issue
By Cannyone on 12/24/2012 1:34:05 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed! I take nothing that I read on the Internet as "Gospel"... Its just another lame rumor until they give me facts and numbers that can be verified. Seriously I can think of half a dozen wild rumors that have spread, recently, because people on the internet are gullible, bored, and don't want to take the time to think for themselves.


RE: The biggest issue
By nikon133 on 12/24/2012 6:15:55 PM , Rating: 2
This.

I haven't seen Surface in NZ yet, and to my knowledge it wasn't available in Australia. Haven't heard it was launched in China either. Why would MS cut production before covering the whole globe with the product..?

Re OS inferiority. After using Win 8 on my work PC since September, and playing a bit with available RT tablets, I'm finding OS superior to Android and iOS. Yes, Tegra hardware leaves something to be desired - at least units could be cheaper based on included hardware - and app library is way behind, which isn't helping... but Win RT OS alone is enough for me to look at one of these tablets when my Transformer is for retirement. Hopefully by then, price will belower or 2nd Gen will be out already.

Advertising for RT is horrible. No way to justify it. Windows 8 does a bit better with kid painting a picture of her father, but only just. Hope they will improve on that...


RE: The biggest issue
By BillyBatson on 12/24/2012 12:47:25 PM , Rating: 4
The SurfaceRT dos not count as a touch computer. The SurfacePro is though and plan on buying one as so do several of my friends. We would never buy an RT under any circumstance though.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/24/2012 9:52:34 PM , Rating: 1
A few weeks ago I posted about a mall here in LA where an Apple, Microsoft, and Sony store are all within a minute of each other, with the MS store being in a prime foot traffic area. The Apple Store there is a little old and is tucked away in comparison. I talked about how the Apple Store, like any other, is packed with customers, while the MS and Sony stores were empty. This was on a weekend.

CNN just posted photos of those same stores on Christmas Eve: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/12/24/apple-micro...

Internet message board denial only goes so far, people in the real world just aren't interested in what MS has to offer with Windows 8 and Surface. The fact that Surface RT is objectively inferior to the iDevices (significantly slower hardware and weaker developer support) is just gravy.


RE: The biggest issue
By kmmatney on 12/24/2012 11:32:24 PM , Rating: 2
The link you posted says it all...

I've bought 2 copies of Windows 8, only because they were a lot cheaper than Windows 7. The surface RT is priced similarly to competing Apple products - it reminds me of how they priced the Zune. It's just hard to see it selling well.


RE: The biggest issue
By BillyBatson on 12/29/2012 1:32:19 PM , Rating: 2
SurfacePro isn't out yet. SurfafeRT is just another tart like the iPad that's only really good for browsing the Internet. If you just want a tablet there is still no reason not to go with an iPad. If you want a touch PC in a tablet form factor the Pro will be our only choice at first and so far it seems like a great choice.


RE: The biggest issue
By Kakao on 12/26/2012 6:52:38 AM , Rating: 2
Would you mind to post a reference to that number?


RE: The biggest issue
By 3minence on 12/24/2012 9:57:47 AM , Rating: 2
Both MS and OEMs have screwed this up. I figure I'm an average user.

I have a desktop PC that will never see Windows 8 because Win8 does not have a good desktop interface. Win8 offers me nothing compelling.

I have a media PC that is hooked to the TV and is used for movies, games, and very rarely Office Productivity and web. it will get Win8 because Win8 and it's Metro interface will work well in that usage model. Of course, most people have consoles for this so I don't see Win8 making big sales here yet.

I want a tablet like the Surface Pro with Win8 Pro on it. it would be the perfect travel device, a tablet on the plane and a small PC with keyboard in the hotel room. it will let me play games and run my business apps.

So Win8 isn't selling well on the desktop? Duh! that's not where it shines. Touch enabled All-in-ones are great devices for Win8 as are convertible tablets. Strait PCs just are not.


RE: The biggest issue
By Flunk on 12/24/2012 12:21:19 PM , Rating: 2
Your logic is flawed, even knowing this website exists, let alone reading it means that you have a superior level of technical knowledge to the average user. Quite likely much more.

Frankly, the average user, never upgrades the OS on anything. That's been proven many times. This is why they invented over the air updates for phone OSes. It has to be basically automatic and free for the average user to even bother (and sometimes not even then).


RE: The biggest issue
By dark matter on 12/24/2012 5:43:44 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, it's your logic that's flawed if you think you can win any argument by claiming "your logic is flawed".


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 6:50:03 PM , Rating: 2
He backs up his post with data that has been proven time and time again and you come back with that pathetic response?

That is beyond grasping at straws.


RE: The biggest issue
By melgross on 12/24/2012 10:32:23 AM , Rating: 2
There is demand; little demand. It's a problem, and there's no point in trying to deny it.


RE: The biggest issue
By sprockkets on 12/24/2012 10:57:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is a demand for Windows 8 systems. This has been fairly well documented.


Win8 sold well, but it appears those were on current systems or upgrades since a lot of people were able to upgrade very cheaply.

This report claims that new system sales are not increasing, that and even in the article only 15% of acer's lineup have touch screens. That doesn't help.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/24/2012 9:17:43 PM , Rating: 3
I'm curious what Win8 sales would have been if it wasn't heavily discounted. The funny thing is that almost none of the people I play or work with have made the upgrade, despite the fact that it can be bought for as little as $15. One of them who did ended up rolling back to Win7, which is pretty unheard of. I ran the Win8 RC for months and in the end I'm sticking with Win7, waiting on whatever follows up Win8.


RE: The biggest issue
By Kepler on 12/26/2012 7:23:41 AM , Rating: 1
Be a man, switch to Linux!

I installed Win8 the day it came out, and have since requested a refund from MS. I've been running Linux at work for years, and will just make the switch at home now.


RE: The biggest issue
By TakinYourPoints on 12/26/2012 5:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
I play too many games! If it wasn't for that I'd be all OS X at this point. I do dual-boot Linux every now and then for lols, but we'll see.

What would make me stick is if Valve and Blizzard had enough native ports for Linux, then it'd be worth it (no WINE for me). Steam and Source games coming over to Ubuntu might start the ball rolling, but it'll take a while for others to follow I think. A good port of Starcraft 2 would really have me consider it.

DirectX is too firmly entrenched in desktop gaming at the moment, that's the real problem at the moment.


RE: The biggest issue
By 91TTZ on 12/24/2012 4:23:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is a demand for Windows 8 systems. This has been fairly well documented.


I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. The "documentation" you've seen is probably from Microsoft promoting their product. Microsoft was bound to sell loads of Windows 8 licenses because OEMs have to buy them in order to finish building their systems; that doesn't mean that those systems have sold.

Before the launch of Windows 8 Microsoft claimed that there's such demand for Windows 8 that it will drive increased PC sales. This has not happened. As it turns out, PC sales are down so we know that people aren't knocking down the door to buy Windows 8 PCs.

As it also turns out, most of the touch screen tablets being sold have Apple iOS or Android on them. Windows 8 isn't catching on in that market either.

To sum it up, Microsoft sold a lot of Windows 8 licenses this quarter because they convinced OEMs that customers would be demanding them. Those OEMs are now discovering that they're having trouble selling Windows 8 devices.


RE: The biggest issue
By Stephen! on 12/24/2012 4:51:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
To sum it up, Microsoft sold a lot of Windows 8 licenses this quarter because they convinced OEMs that customers would be demanding them. Those OEMs are now discovering that they're having trouble selling Windows 8 devices.


It should have been obvious to them, given the success/fail cycle of Windows.

Windows 98 - Success
Windows ME - Fail
Windows XP - Success
Windows Vista - Fail
Windows Seven - Success
Windows Eight - Fail (Well, maybe ...)


RE: The biggest issue
By macca007 on 12/25/2012 3:11:12 AM , Rating: 2
;) Beat me to it!


RE: The biggest issue
By Cheeseavatar on 12/24/2012 4:52:29 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree that "New System Sales" have been poor.
I mean when you look at what most people do with PC it can be done via other means now like tablets.

Also take into account that most people do not need to buy a new computer every 2-3 years anymore as most computers will work for what the average consumer does.

I know that for myself, my family and my friends I have just bought the $40 Win 8 Pro upgrade and upgraded everyone that way.

Their laptop/Desktop acutally work better than they did when Win 7 was install.

So in a way yes, new system sales have lacked, but overall liciences that MS as sold...

Thats the real number we should be looking at and we will never know the ture number.


RE: The biggest issue
By DiscoWade on 12/24/2012 7:17:50 PM , Rating: 2
It is my opinion that the two best operating systems Microsoft ever made are Windows 7 and Windows Home Server. Few people know about WHS, but many people have Windows 7. W7 came at the perfect time when many people needed to replace their aging Windows XP systems. It is very good. So good, in fact, that few will buy a new computer because they want a new computer. The old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies.


RE: The biggest issue
By dark matter on 12/24/2012 5:41:38 PM , Rating: 1
"There is a demand for Windows 8 systems."

Not from me there isn't. And this is from someone coming from Windows 1.

Not this time. As far as I'm concerned if I wanted a tablet, I'd buy a tablet with a dedicated tablet OS.

If I want a laptop or a desktop... Well, I'm screwed now.


RE: The biggest issue
By DiscoWade on 12/24/2012 7:24:28 PM , Rating: 2
When Windows 8 was first released, there were no Windows 7 systems on the shelf unless they were ones that had yet to sell. Just last week, I bought a new HP with Windows 7 for someone whose computer died. It had a Core i7 and 12GB of memory, so I think (but don't know) it was made after Windows 8 was released. The Sam's Club I bought it at had as many Windows 7 desktops for sale as Windows 8 ones. I do know for a fact that in late November this same Sam's Club had no Windows 7 computers for sell.

This is pure anecdotal of course.


RE: The biggest issue
By IntelUser2000 on 12/24/2012 10:57:32 PM , Rating: 2
Labotomizer is right, but the article is right too.

Outside the Surface RT, its rare to see touchscreen based systems. Yet the people who want Windows 8 would consider touchscreen devices.

You can't buy them even if you want to, and add to that there's only a few touchscreen models.

So Windows 8 discourages traditional PC buyers, but the devices its trying to move to isn't available.

Back to Surface RT: Aside from the fact that its from a big brand name vendor, it has nothing that says you should get one. If you are going to get "Windows" that has no application support, why would you buy that over iOS and Android?

Limited sales do happen because its so widely advertised but that's about it.


RE: The biggest issue
By Kepler on 12/26/2012 7:19:01 AM , Rating: 2
Where has it been documented? I've only heard (and experienced) bad things with Windows 8. I've been running Linux at work for years now, and now at home. I installed Windows 8 on release, and have since contacted MS for a refund.

It is junk, face it.


How long can Ballmer last?
By Tony Swash on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: How long can Ballmer last?
By momorere on 12/24/2012 1:01:26 PM , Rating: 2
Still no presence huh ? Others seem to disagree

http://news.yahoo.com/windows-already-threatening-...

What is your take on the latest iOS screwup ? Curious to see your excuse


RE: How long can Ballmer last?
By Camikazi on 12/25/2012 10:45:59 AM , Rating: 1
Don't know why people still haven't learned to not underestimate Microsoft and Intel. Those 2 companies are giants and have been known for coming in as the underdog in a sector and end up owning it. Just cause MS is behind now doesn't mean a thing, they can turn it around and end up winning.


RE: How long can Ballmer last?
By retrospooty on 12/25/2012 10:53:53 AM , Rating: 2
yep, MS Office and Windows itself are 2 examples of product that we're at 1 time inferior to the competition, then several versions and years later they eventually totally dominate the market. Both companies have time money and expertise to get it done. That doesn't mean they will 100% for sure but they certainly can, so don't count them out.


RE: How long can Ballmer last?
By Pirks on 12/25/2012 3:55:58 PM , Rating: 2
MS has lost this round with Surface RT because they decided to put ARM crap inside instead of Clover Trail (see Anand's latest post on Clover Trail power consumption to understand what terrible mistake the choice of ARM was) and they ignored all the gaming studio and money power they have, so they did not bother to introduce at least one exclusive killer title like Halo or something, to give consumers at least one reason to buy it over Nexus 7. You say Intel and MS are big hence they will come back, however when I see these decisions to put one of the worst CPUs on the market instead of one of the best ones (Clover Trail) and to ignore all the developer brains and money they have and to NOT support their own hardware with at least one killer app like Halo - I realize that size and money don't matter that much. HP had huge size and gobs of money, did it save their tablet? No. Same with MS - their upper management has lost connection with reality, they can't even avoid most basic mistakes like choosing best hardware and software for their own tablet. I think you understand this too retro, so your belief that MS will come back is naïve. They need smart management who avoids really stupid mistakes like the ones above. This kind of management is not there so... no coming back for them, I think.

This is coming from a Surface RT owner BTW. I wish Ballmer all the luck and as few stupid mistakes as possible, I still keep some faint hope that maybe future Surface iterations will get the hardware and software they deserve instead of current crap but you know, I'm pretty pessimistic on that. I hate to agree with Tony but looks like he's right this time. This is Zune all over again.

Let's see what they put in Surface 2, if they put next gen Atom in it instead of sad ARM crap AND they tap one of their talented studios to produce a slick hot 3D blockbuster EXCLUSIVELY for Surface - then I may agree with you on MS coming back.

But so far MS is just a sad bunch of losers who can't learn from their own mistakes. Jeez I hate Tony now.


How about a fat price reduction
By IranTech on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: How about a fat price reduction
By Fleeb on 12/24/2012 10:54:28 AM , Rating: 2
Philanthropy fir Gates at least.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By IranTech on 12/24/2012 11:41:49 AM , Rating: 2
That is yet to come. To be fair though, at least he is not openly against it as Steve Jobs was.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By name99 on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: How about a fat price reduction
By IranTech on 12/24/2012 4:37:07 PM , Rating: 1
Given the character he was, you can be certain that the money he gave to Stanford hospital must have been specifically aimed at a certain project which would have made him billions in the long run. Sorry!

On the other hand, if he was such a good man, it is mind boggling the energy he must have spent all his life to be such an annoying prick in everything he did and said.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By maxxcool on 12/26/2012 2:38:52 PM , Rating: 1
Good! I hope he made billions on the backs of you poor sad hippies with no education and no drive to excel.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By Mint on 12/25/2012 1:49:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Steve Jobs was NOT against philanthropy. He was against people constantly talking about philanthropy and expecting to be treated as saints because of their giving.
LOL how much more against philanthropy can anyone get? Treating givers as saints is PRECISELY what the world needs and always has.

On top of that, he stopped Apple's donations saying they couldn't afford it, but never resumed it after they became the most profitable company on earth.

And how does $100M prove anything? That's 1% of his net worth. And why would you make baseless assumptions that he gave most of his fortune away? As far as we know, it all went to his family.


By superstition on 12/25/2012 8:16:49 PM , Rating: 1
The perceived need for charity generally increases with increasing corruption in terms of governance/policy. This is a matter of simple logic, as non-corrupt governance generally provides for the citizenry.

Since billionaires (politicians are their proxies) set that policy, guess what happens when the need for charity increases? They get to seem like great people, so the public will support the status quo and even a creeping increase in the corruption.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By EricMartello on 12/24/2012 2:37:13 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
If Windows 8 was supposed to make Gates or Balmer a couple of billions richer each, then they can just slash the price of their tablets and OS in half and recharge the market.


Or they can charge the highest price which the market will bear inline with basic rules of economics.

quote:
Isn't it time they gave back something in return for all they took?


WTF are you talking about? They made a product - people can choose to buy or not buy it. What did they "take" and what do they need to "give back"? This sounds like more left wing anti-capitalism garbage that hinges on the "I deserve as much as everyone else has even if I'm a worthless, unproductive loser" sentiment.

Let me spell it out for you. You DO NOT deserve anything. You ARE NOT entitled to anything. EARN YOUR KEEP and don't b1tch if you're not good enough to find success on your own. Nobody owes you anything.

quote:
I wouldn't buy an iPad for a hundred dollars, but I will certainly buy a Surface for $200.00. Yet the greed at the top prevents things from moving forward!!


The price is what it is - buy it or don't.

Being competitive does not equate to greed; greed is the pursuit of wealth to the exclusion of all other considerations. This is not true with MS who has to pay for their employees, marketing & advertising, R&D and numerous other expenses that come along with being a big company.

The flawed expectation to make everything cheap enough so underachievers can afford things they shouldn't even be concerned with is one of the reasons America's economy is in the sh1tter.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By IranTech on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
RE: How about a fat price reduction
By EricMartello on 12/24/2012 5:06:47 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
By the first law of capitalism, I am the owner of my money as long as I have not given it to Microsoft or Apple (i.e. bought their products), and it will remain so until they produce a product at the right price which makes it worth buying.


Capitalism refers to a system of governance where the private ownership of land and industry is permitted and encouraged. It has nothing to do with the exchange of money.

quote:
The age of shrinking returns has started for the few that have fixed the market for so long.


You mean the companies that are both innovative and competitive enough to categorically define technology get to decide at which price sell their products? Working as intended. They set their prices and market demand along with economic realities determine whether the price adjusts.

quote:
The socialist solution is to erect a wall at $500.00 and enforce it with through legislation, legal action and numbing propaganda.


Wrong again. Socialism refers to a type of governance where the state owns land and industry. Socialism fails because the state generates revenue from taxes, taxes which are forced upon the citizens by law, so it has little to no incentive to run manage industry efficiently or make productive use of resources.

quote:
By the way your line on what Gates and Balmer took next to their struggle to pay their employees is hilarious.


Who said anything about struggling? The market decides what the employees are paid based on their level of expertise in a given field. The more qualified people in a given field the lower the pay for said field in general.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By IranTech on 12/25/12, Rating: -1
RE: How about a fat price reduction
By EricMartello on 12/25/2012 2:16:12 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
distorted proclamations being made about socialism in the American media


The media generally supports obama's actions and is consistently sympathetic to the left wing. You sound like someone who watches MSNBC all day.

quote:
for example Obama is a socialist president or taxing the middle class more than the rich is capitalism and taxing the middle and lower classes less than the ultra rich is socialism.


Redistribution of wealth is in fact a tenet of communism, and socialism is typically the management model adopted by communist governments. There are exceptions, like Hong Kong, which is a communist government with a capitalist management scheme.

Income is already taxed progressively in america, which means the more you make the more you pay. A percentage of your income is paid in taxes and there is no legitimate reason for this percentage to INCREASE as your income increases, especially when the government is so inept when it comes to managing the money it's taking in.

quote:
Also, contrary to your assertion, private ownership is not banned in socialist systems. Your version of capitalism and socialism, and what is socialism is so twisted and out of place that the discussion is always better left for another time.


Who said private ownership was banned? I didn't. You're too busy being a left-wing zealot to actually understand the differences between capitalist and socialist systems.

The socialist paradigm does not allow for private ownership of industry or resources (i.e. coal, minerals, water, land) because the state claims these for itself. It allows a small, select group of people to benefit from these resources while the majority of the population lives in poverty.

Socialism in action:

- Try to start your own business in broadcast radio or television. Good luck getting a license from the FCC to do so "legally". The fed owns the airwaves.

- Try to start your own brand of gasoline like Exxon or Chevron...if the EPA lets you. The fed lays claim to natural resources.

- Try starting your own bank...if the SEC and Federal Reserve decide to allow you. The fed manipulates our currency and banking system, ensuring that certain entities never have to face any consequences for their actions...too big to fail.

The USA started down the road toward socialism sometime during the industrial revolution. Since then it has been a slow and steady erosion of capitalistic roots that inspired individual prosperity.

quote:
However, I will give you two clues. The best version of capitalism is and has always been what I offered. Socialism is about social justice.


What you presented is not capitalism because it ignores the free market. You're trying to set prices based on your idea of what they should be rather than what the market says they are.

Social justice is a liberal codeword for "someone has more than me, I demand that the government take from them and give to me". That is not justice; that is fishing for handouts. There is no such thing as "social justice" because what you perceive as injustice is your own lack of effort or ability.

quote:
Socialism on the other hand tries to keep a grip on basic ideas that it starts off with. How much successful it will be is always up for debate, but it will never come to such deficit that capitalism will inevitably come to, and in fact has by now, either.


Before you come here and start talking pick up a fcking history book and read about the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao and most of Europe in the middle ages. The levels of poverty experienced by people living under these left wing regimes makes ghana look like some west coast country club resort.

The very idea that every individual has an OPPORTUNITY to succeed and has inalienable rights is American. No other country has the types of liberties that Americans do. The problem is the influx of parasitic losers who decided that "opportunity = entitlement". You see, everyone in America has a chance to be great but nobody is entitled to be great.

America is the best country in the world by far and capitalism is what allowed it to grow into that. Our constitution provides limitations and rights to ensure that people do not get chewed up by the system...your suggestion that giving full control to the government is somehow better shows the endlessness of your ignorance. History has proven time and time again that the more powerful a government becomes the worse things get for its citizens.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By Kepler on 12/26/2012 7:33:42 AM , Rating: 4
EricMartello, you should run for President.

You did forget to point out that any "failing" that capitalism has succumbed to is a direct result of liberalism/socialism/communism being mixed in with it.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By snakeInTheGrass on 12/26/2012 12:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Redistribution of wealth is in fact a tenet of communism, and socialism is typically the management model adopted by communist governments. There are exceptions, like Hong Kong, which is a communist government with a capitalist management scheme.


Redistribution of wealth happens with any system, and realistically it happens in the same direction (towards the very wealthy) regardless. Look at the stats in 'communist' China, the old USSR, or the glorious U.S. and A. The elite with influence inevitably will draw more money towards themselves. Not advocating Communism or anything, just saying look at the actual big picture. If you think that bankers, media owners, etc. don't get a better deal because they can influence policies in their favor, think again.

quote:
Income is already taxed progressively in america, which means the more you make the more you pay. A percentage of your income is paid in taxes and there is no legitimate reason for this percentage to INCREASE as your income increases, especially when the government is so inept when it comes to managing the money it's taking in.


As someone earning enough to be at the peak of taxes, let me assure you that it's NOT taxed progressively. In defining investment income differently from 'normal' (i.e. working a job) income, the tax rates are HEAVILY skewed against the highest earning workers. If you're rich enough to make your money on investments (or use foreign tax havens), the capital gains rates make sure you pay a much lower percentage of your income than someone who earns less but has a job. Hell, you currently pay less on long term capital gains than just the business+personal side of FICA. Oh, and no Social Security getting yanked out either - and THEN getting the money taxed. It's progressive right up until you are rich enough to get the laws to favor you.

The masses have the sheer voting numbers to prevent having to pay taxes since politicians will pander to them (Romney's 47 percent), and the ultra-wealthy have the influence not to pay the taxes either (Romney himself as a lovely example - almost 14 percent of 20 million? Wow, I'm really impressed!).

I wholeheartedly agree that there's nothing fair about progressive tax rates, but today you have a ridiculous curve where you'll pay the most if you work the most. Please don't claim that it's progressive as earnings increase - unless you're retired and living on high amounts of investment income - or unemployed -, you're getting screwed too.

quote:
Socialism in action:

- Try to start your own business in broadcast radio or television. Good luck getting a license from the FCC to do so "legally". The fed owns the airwaves.

- Try to start your own brand of gasoline like Exxon or Chevron...if the EPA lets you. The fed lays claim to natural resources.

- Try starting your own bank...if the SEC and Federal Reserve decide to allow you. The fed manipulates our currency and banking system, ensuring that certain entities never have to face any consequences for their actions...too big to fail.

The USA started down the road toward socialism sometime during the industrial revolution. Since then it has been a slow and steady erosion of capitalistic roots that inspired individual prosperity.


Kind of cases in point. The fact that the airwaves (or gas rights) are 'commonly owned' but essentially sold only to huge corporations is full-on capitalism, not socialism. Under socialism, we'd only have state-run radio/tv (NPR? PBS?) and some state-run gas/oil company. You can be sure that the system is currently skewed towards the media (and energy) giants who can exclude all others through government policies.

"Too big to fail" is protection of private companies using public funds. That's NOT socialism, that's capitalism with influence peddling between the wealthy in the private sector and the revolving door + legal bribery to the political side.

Corrupt capitalism != socialism.

quote:
The very idea that every individual has an OPPORTUNITY to succeed and has inalienable rights is American. No other country has the types of liberties that Americans do. The problem is the influx of parasitic losers who decided that "opportunity = entitlement". You see, everyone in America has a chance to be great but nobody is entitled to be great.

America is the best country in the world by far and capitalism is what allowed it to grow into that. Our constitution provides limitations and rights to ensure that people do not get chewed up by the system...your suggestion that giving full control to the government is somehow better shows the endlessness of your ignorance. History has proven time and time again that the more powerful a government becomes the worse things get for its citizens.


Really? And Sweden is worse for citizens rights because...? Australia? Do their governments monitor ALL electronic communications or something?

I love nationalism and all, but don't let it blind you to the flaws of any nation. Our history is rife with fully constitutional exploitation and trampling of rights, both inside our country and of others. Of course we have plenty of current examples here as well, but historically it's incredible what our foreign policy was up to (look at the actual list of US foreign conflict as well as domestic - French-American, Spanish-American, Civil War) as well as what nice, unregulated capitalism can achieve.

I'd think that outright ownership of people (or needing an amendment to give women the right to vote?) would give anyone touting the Constitution as the perfect symbol of fairness at least a moments pause -or was it only bad when nice guys like Stalin and Hitler had slave labor camps. "Whites only" water fountains? Radiation experiments on prisoners? "Number one"? (I know you didn't give those examples, and I don't think you support that, I'm just claiming 'best' status may not be without perils - we have a really nasty history in this country too. Giving full control to any government is crazy, but the actions of our own government as driven by goals of international power and money are not really a shining example of excellence, more of a great example of hypocrisy.

Happily the constitution has been updated, so that's the good news even if it still has very 18th-century shortcomings. And I'd much rather deal with our own problems than live in fun places like Sierra Leone, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc., but there are certainly quite a few nations that would rank at least equally in terms of rights ('socialist' Europe does a much better job of protecting the rights of people not to be used as test subjects for companies producing foods with GM and untested chemical additives, for example) and higher in terms of standards of living & education. Nothing is perfect.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By EricMartello on 12/27/2012 5:13:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Redistribution of wealth happens with any system, and realistically it happens in the same direction (towards the very wealthy) regardless. Look at the stats in 'communist' China, the old USSR, or the glorious U.S. and A. The elite with influence inevitably will draw more money towards themselves. Not advocating Communism or anything, just saying look at the actual big picture. If you think that bankers, media owners, etc. don't get a better deal because they can influence policies in their favor, think again.


The socialist elites do not care about being taxed because that money comes right back to them in the form of grants, loans and other handouts they receive as political favors. It's usually referred to as cronyism and it's strongly connected with lobbyists and the ability for wealthy entities to bankroll campaigns indirectly via super pacs. This is not redistribution; it's hoarding.

Redistribution is something that affects people and businesses who are not in the "inner circle", where the money they work to earn is taxed at increasingly higher percentages, only to have most of it be redistributed to people who don't work at all. There is a difference between offering citizens a safety net to get through hard times and a permanent paycheck that discourages individual effort.

quote:
As someone earning enough to be at the peak of taxes, let me assure you that it's NOT taxed progressively. In defining investment income differently from 'normal' (i.e. working a job) income, the tax rates are HEAVILY skewed against the highest earning workers.


Capital gains are taxed at a percentage rate that is on a sliding scale based on the amount of income you receive from investments as well as the type of investments you've made. They are not taxed at the same rates as wages/salary because they are a different type of income.

- People who invest their money are typically capitalizing new and existing businesses, giving those businesses the ability to expand and hire more people.

- There is a substantial risk to investing as a portfolio can lose some or all of its value, leaving the investor with nothing.

- Workers, people earning a wage or salary, get paid for their time. The level of risk is minimal, as they are assured payment so long as their employer is solvent.

- There are no guarantees that the money you invest will produce a return.

- Many people earning income from investments are people who have saved money during their working careers.

quote:
Hell, you currently pay less on long term capital gains than just the business+personal side of FICA. Oh, and no Social Security getting yanked out either - and THEN getting the money taxed. It's progressive right up until you are rich enough to get the laws to favor you.


It's progressive in the sense that your tax liability increases as your income level does. What you seem to be complaining about is the differences in the actual rates...look, it's quite simple. The more financial risk you are willing to incur, the higher the potential payoff if your investment succeeds.

Risk-taking as it pertains to investments needs to be rewarded because that's what leads to innovation. People who play opt to play it safe (i.e. get a job and live a life they believe is sensible) are effectively insulated from these big losses at the expense of also being insulated from big gains.

The lower and middle classes are also the primary consumers of federal handout & entitlement programs - if we're so concerned with people paying their fair share then it's only fair that the people who use the services should be the ones to pay a little extra for it.

quote:
The masses have the sheer voting numbers to prevent having to pay taxes since politicians will pander to them (Romney's 47 percent), and the ultra-wealthy have the influence not to pay the taxes either (Romney himself as a lovely example - almost 14 percent of 20 million? Wow, I'm really impressed!).


It has nothing to do with influence and all to do with our tax code. Again, you're pushing the liberal "fairness" agenda that is rooted purely in emotion and devoid of fact. His investments are now fueling the growth of other companies which is why they are able to earn a return.

By the way, 14% of 20M is $2,800,000 - if workers earning an average of $40K per year were taxed at 50%, you would need 140 of them to equal one Romney. In reality, workers' effective tax rates are generally below 25% when you include deductions and the money they receive from their tax refund.

quote:
Kind of cases in point. The fact that the airwaves (or gas rights) are 'commonly owned' but essentially sold only to huge corporations is full-on capitalism, not socialism. Under socialism, we'd only have state-run radio/tv (NPR? PBS?) and some state-run gas/oil company. You can be sure that the system is currently skewed towards the media (and energy) giants who can exclude all others through government policies.


So you did not notice that most mainstream forms of media are owned and operated by a very small group of people? Many of them are pushing a left wing agenda that essentially validates the actions of our government (if it's a left winger in power) or demonizes the person in charge (if they are not liberal). For all intents and purposes, mainstream media IS state-run.

If you need a license to do something it is a privilege granted to you, not a right. Media companies 'lease' licenses from the FCC to broadcast on certain frequencies, but these auctions are not something that a typical person could participate in since the bids are multi-million dollar amounts.

The FCC broadcasts white noise on frequencies that are not leased to some media company to prevent "pirate broadcasters" from popping up. The point is that, unlike the internet which is still open, you cannot just set up an antenna and broadcast despite us having the first amendment. The state owns the airwaves and decides who is allowed to broadcast...the FCC also limits the type of content that can be broadcast. Makes people who complain about China look hypocritical.

quote:
"Too big to fail" is protection of private companies using public funds. That's NOT socialism, that's capitalism with influence peddling between the wealthy in the private sector and the revolving door + legal bribery to the political side.


Too big to fail shields companies from the consequences of poor management. Again, who is setting the interest rate in America? The financial markets? No, the fed is manipulating our currency with what it calls "QE" or quantitative easing. The federal reserve bank is a privately owned institution which lends money to the US government and prints more when it doesn't have enough to lend. Do you think that the state should have such control over the value of a nations currency that is so far disconnected from commerce and industry?

quote:
Corrupt capitalism != socialism.


I'll take capitalism with some corrupt elements over socialism any day...because socialism is intrinsically corrupt.

quote:
Really? And Sweden is worse for citizens rights because...? Australia? Do their governments monitor ALL electronic communications or something?


Why do liberals feel the need to cite Sweden or other countries as if they are models for how America should be without actually understanding the realities in these countries, both political and economic? Sweden is more like a cautionary tale about a fall from greatness rather than a model of how other countries should be.

quote:
I love nationalism and all, but don't let it blind you to the flaws of any nation.


Stating that America is the best country does not preclude it from having flaws, as we are comparing America to other countries around the globe and not to perfection.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By IranTech on 12/29/2012 10:16:31 AM , Rating: 2
@EricMartello

You mix so many things up. The kind of socialism that you keep talking about can only be found in fiction. Others refer to your version of socialism as communism. Then again, since America has defeated communism and it must be kind of self-defeating to use the word communism. The Western media just uses the word socialism and so do you.

Think 1984. Orwell does not call that fictional society a communist or socialist society. Orwell's is an intellectual critique of capitalism, not socialism. And here you are plowing the field like the most determined Ox towards that society.

Keep it up or don't. I am not paying more than 200 for a surface or 50 for an iPad. Which you may consider as a compliment to Microsoft and Apple's ingenuity,
considering how much a dollar is really worth. Which shows what a nice person I am, really.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By maxxcool on 12/26/2012 2:42:40 PM , Rating: 1
It is not your money. the money us not backed by silver or gold and can be devalued instantly by anyone with the power to do so.

as for laws of capitalism. until people can't buy them at the price offered they will forever remain at that price or higher.


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By macca007 on 12/25/2012 3:21:03 AM , Rating: 3
I wouldn't say under achievers, Here in Australia the average price of a surface tablet is nearly $600 that's for the basic model. The 64gb is close to $800 who the hell is going to pay that for a tablet you can buy a pc for that, Even the latest Nexus 10 is $100 cheaper. Most companies want to cater for average joe, That's where the bread and butter is, Not too cheap or not too expensive, Unfortunately This surface is the most expensive on the market, May as well buy an ultrabook.
Who is MS being competitive with? The laptop/ultrabook market or pc market. lol


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By Da W on 12/26/2012 10:16:06 AM , Rating: 1
True, but Microsoft still acts as a Monopoly, but it ain't anymore. It's a 3-way competitive market and Microsoft, although it's making some good shit, it's not enough.

To be fair it's a form factor thing. Long gone are the days of the desktop and i can barely see the use for a non-touchscreen laptop when you have a tablet. Windows 8 tablets at you local best buy have been scarce. OEMs are not delivering, MS failled by pushing their Surface RT before X86 pro.


By jimbojimbo on 12/26/2012 12:40:28 PM , Rating: 2
You want products for less than 50% off. Who's greedy now?


RE: How about a fat price reduction
By maxxcool on 12/26/2012 2:36:24 PM , Rating: 2
hahahaha poor hippy with no job can't afford a tablet ?? sooo sad...


No surprise
By Beenthere on 12/24/12, Rating: -1
"Google fired a shot heard 'round the world, and now a second American company has answered the call to defend the rights of the Chinese people." -- Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-N.J.)

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