backtop


Print 129 comment(s) - last by tygrus.. on Apr 12 at 6:41 AM


Windows 8 offers up some Ribbon loving.  (Source: Paul Thurrott/Within Windows)
Whether you love the ribbon or hate it, you may have to use it to get around in Windows 8

Microsoft's "Ribbon" graphical user interface, first introduced with Office 2007, was a dramatic departure from its straightforward menus of yore.  It offered users quicker access to more options and more visual cues.  But for some, it also brought more distraction and headaches.  

For better or worse, the Ribbon has migrated to Window 7's Paint tool, to the WordPad app, and to Microsoft Live essentials.

Now Microsoft is preparing to take a bold next step, adding the ribbon to arguably its most integral part of Windows -- the Windows Explorer.

According to iconic Windows bloggers Paul Thurrott and Rafael Rivera an early build of Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 operating system sports a partially finished Ribbon design driving menus within Windows Explorer.  They show off screen shots of the design in action.  
Mr. Thurrott and his colleague seem less than thrilled about the idea.  They write:

In early builds of Windows 8, this Ribbon UI is only half-finished and, frankly, of dubious value. In fact, based on the divergent ways in which various related UI elements are repeated around the window frame, we get the idea that the use of the Ribbon in Explorer is, in fact, quite controversial inside the halls of Microsoft’s Redmond campus.

...

In the current pre-release builds we’ve seen, the Ribbon is a serious work in progress and is quite unattractive. It’s unclear whether Microsoft intends to move forward with this UI as-is, or whether it will appear only in certain UI types. Based on what we’re seeing, however, it does seem that there will at least be a toggle to disable this top-heavy UI. So if you don’t like the Ribbon in Windows Explorer, hopefully you’ll be able to turn it off.

It's possible that Microsoft will give users an option to switch back to a Aero Lite (formerly "Aero Basic") theme, similar to Windows 7's, restoring the traditional menu.  It is also suspected that Microsoft may pack in a third user interface option -- its tile-based Metro UI found in Windows Phone 7.

Windows 8 is rumored to ship in 2012 by numerous sources.  If accurate, this means that the final UI content of Windows 8 may be partially dictated by what there's time to finish.  Also whether or not Microsoft must weigh the benefits of packing in three distinct menu UI styles, versus the confusion that might cause.

Even if users are given the ability to switch back to a non-Ribbonized Explorer, they may be prohibited to do so in some corporate settings, due to their local IT department's restrictions on changing control panel settings.  Thus some veteran users may find themselves forced to use the Ribbon -- at work at least.

It's a undeniable fact that Office 2007's Ribbon was much maligned.  One of the more levelheaded analyses of the feature was given by one of our readers in a past piece.  They argued that much of the criticism was from people unwilling to relearn a new interface.  They stated that the best test of whether or not the ribbon is a good idea is how new users (e.g. young students) react to it.  

This seems pretty apt.  If new users can use the ribbon to accomplish tasks with greater efficiency than their plain-menu-equipped predecessors, Microsoft's strategy is vindicated no matter how much criticism is leveled against it by veteran users.  But if it turns out the graphically rich interface simply is less efficient for everyone, which is clearly a problem.

In short the Ribbon design is a high-risk, high-reward scenario.  Microsoft will be chastised if it doesn't innovate.  And it will invariably be chastised if it does.  The Windows Team will just have to make their best judgment call, no matter what the blogosphere thinks.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

I like the ribon.
By kleinma on 4/5/2011 12:20:46 PM , Rating: 5
Does it take some getting used to? Yes.
Does it make you more productive once you learn it? Yes.
Can you customize the crap out of it? Yes.
Does anyone bother to even try to learn it or customize it to their needs? Nope.




RE: I like the ribon.
By omnicronx on 4/5/2011 12:25:12 PM , Rating: 2
Most people are just used to the old context menus as it has been engrained in their heads over the last 25 years.

After using it for a while, I would tend to agree with your statements. It can be completely customized and seems far more intuitive than old style context menus if organized correctly.

That said, if not designed and implemented correctly, it can be quite confusing.


RE: I like the ribon.
By bobgoh on 4/5/2011 3:57:45 PM , Rating: 5
try using the ribbon interface when you are in the hurry to complete a report or presentation.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Azethoth on 4/5/11, Rating: -1
RE: I like the ribon.
By JarredWalton on 4/5/11, Rating: 0
RE: I like the ribon.
By mezrah on 4/5/2011 6:19:31 PM , Rating: 5
You know you can minimize the ribbon, right?


RE: I like the ribon.
By StraightCashHomey on 4/5/2011 9:13:53 PM , Rating: 1
That's a rhetorical question.


RE: I like the ribon.
By AnnihilatorX on 4/6/2011 3:59:11 AM , Rating: 2
But you will have to unhide it to use any function at all, and doing this many times it becomes annoying.

With the ever more popular widescreen monitors, I suggested to MSDN on allowing ribbon to be moved to a vertical position since office 2007...


RE: I like the ribon.
By FaceMaster on 4/6/2011 8:31:46 AM , Rating: 1
I hate the way that HD videos use up so much space on my screen. Sure, I can hide them behind other things, but it doesn't stop them from showing up when I want to watch it. It's becoming annoying.


RE: I like the ribon.
By RjBass on 4/6/2011 12:57:06 PM , Rating: 2
It auto un-hides if you have the settings right. Wow this thread has plenty of examples where users have failed to even try to learn how to use the ribbon.


RE: I like the ribon.
By theapparition on 4/6/2011 5:08:47 PM , Rating: 2
While functionality wise, I have little issue with the Ribbon, as I do believe it enables one to get most tasks done quicker.

However, your point about discoverability is completely spot-on accurate. My biggest gripe is now trying to find functions that aren't on the ribbon. Trying to use features that aren't there is extremely tedious.


RE: I like the ribon.
By tayb on 4/5/2011 7:28:05 PM , Rating: 2
Try using the ribbon? As compared to what? Office 2003? Right. In the Ribbon 90% of what I need is right at the top. In 2003 it is buried in drop down menu's.

So, yeah. I tried using the Ribbon and I get the report and presentation done with plenty of time to spare. I was fired when I tried to use Office 2003.


RE: I like the ribon.
By JediJeb on 4/6/2011 1:36:42 PM , Rating: 4
I have a grand total of 15 things I need to use when using Excel so I made 15 buttons for the top of the screen and killed the ribbon, I get my work done just as fast or even faster without using the ribbon. Most of my word processing is done in Notepad, I hope they don't try to add the ribbon to that too.

As for the Explorer, I have mine set back as far in the past as I can, still looks close to File Manager. And I turn off that goofy thing that takes up a big chunk of the left side of windows for things like Control Panel too, just give me the little icons for all the groups instead of that cloudy looking thingy that tries to group items together where I can't find them. Honestly in my work I can be just as fast or even faster with the Win 3.1 or Win 95 interface as I can with Windows Vista/7 interfaces. I turn off all the slidey animated menus and themes, just a distraction, no functional purpose at all to that kind of stuff.

There needs to be some form of completely stripped down interface for Windows like you can get for Linux for those of us who just need to work and not see pretty animations and shadows and clouds everywhere.


RE: I like the ribon.
By StraightCashHomey on 4/5/2011 9:15:30 PM , Rating: 2
Ok. I did, and I got it done quicker. Now what?


RE: I like the ribon.
By spread on 4/8/2011 9:20:15 PM , Rating: 2
I use it all the time and it's more intuitive and a bit faster than the wall of buttons.

Of course I learned it BEFORE I was in a panic attack and stressed for time.


RE: I like the ribon.
By tastyratz on 4/6/2011 11:16:55 AM , Rating: 1
Great idea, poor implementation.

The biggest thing is that the ribbon was designed around a 5 year old doing their homework. Any more advanced from that and you just can't do it. Anyone can customize their ribbon, but I don't want to waste a bunch of time configuring and customizing it to include... all of the buttons.

How hard would it be microsoft to make a formats tab... and advanced formats tab for example with the remaining buttons?

The intense customization lends poorly to standardization in a business and support environment. Office is designed around business usage, not just resume's and homework.
They made life difficult for their primary customers... businesses.


RE: I like the ribon.
By ImSpartacus on 4/6/2011 3:19:32 PM , Rating: 3
See, the five year old can't customize their ribbon.

We can.

It took me an hour to learn the ribbon. Three years later, do I still forget where things are located? Of course, I spent about 10-15s (an eternity if you're in-the-zone) trying to figure out how to freeze panes in Excel this morning. But it's not Excel's fault, I can put freeze panes in the Quick Access Toolbar and there it is. The icon is tiny because I'm supposed to know what it is. But I didn't, and I paid for it.

My father also uses Excel on a daily basis. He absolutely freaked out when he tried to use Excel 2007 a year ago. I showed him the Quick Access Toolbar and he never looked back.

Moral of the story? The people that constantly need to dig through the ribbon can customize their ribbon accordingly. We're big boys and girls, we need to act like it.


RE: I like the ribon.
By tastyratz on 4/6/2011 6:09:33 PM , Rating: 2
And that is all fine and dandy from the single user perspective, but again leads to incredible diversity in the business segment. I don't want all of my users creating intensely custom ribbons then asking me to help them with their document. I don't want to figure out who put what where at every desk I visit, and I don't want to help them remember where they put the icon they forgot about. Then when they change computers, I don't have to help them setup their bar again, nor explain why their office is "so different" at home.

Simplistically creating an "advanced" tab that leads to ALL buttons would allow a standard solution with which you could STILL customize.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Suntan on 4/5/2011 12:32:59 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Does anyone bother to even try to learn it or customize it to their needs? Nope.


So it sounds like they didn’t do a very good job at targeting new features towards their *intended* audience.

The reality is what most normal people know but just don’t care about, every couple of years the IT guys replace the computer at work and it has a new version of office on it, but it doesn’t actually improve productivity because the one two or three revisions back was more than enough for 99.99% of the uses within the company.

At this point it is just change for the sake of justifying a new relase.

-Suntan


RE: I like the ribon.
By kaosstar on 4/5/2011 1:07:06 PM , Rating: 2
I've got to agree. Also, I'd estimate only 5-10% of PC users to be "power users". Everyone else really needs the simplest possible interface. Maybe Windows should have two interface styles like many programs do - like basic and advanced.


RE: I like the ribon.
By dark matter on 4/5/2011 1:25:42 PM , Rating: 1
That's the thing, the ribbon is actually simple. You just need to release your engrained mindset.

The true test is if new users are able to use the new UI better than the old UI.

If that is the case, your point is proven, then new UI is simpler.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Azethoth on 4/5/2011 4:17:31 PM , Rating: 3
Nah, I am no longer productive using MS Office. As soon as a viable alternative comes by I am gone.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 4/5/2011 5:21:55 PM , Rating: 1
Then I'd have to argue that you don't do very much with MS Office and Open Office would likely satisfy your needs, it really isn't a bad product for everyday use.

For many a power user or VBA developer the new ribbon system is quite productive, especially now with 2010's ability to customize and package new ribbons for distribution. My single complaint to the ribbon was Office 2007 where it had limited customization options. With 2010 the limits are the user and nothing more.


RE: I like the ribon.
By StraightCashHomey on 4/6/2011 9:45:01 AM , Rating: 2
Just be honest and say that you either never use Microsoft Office, or you have buttsex with Steve Jobs every night.


RE: I like the ribon.
By MrBlastman on 4/5/2011 1:20:58 PM , Rating: 5
For many of us, it just pisses us off when there are extreme interface changes to software that we use. Like it or not, when something is around for many years as a standard--and then is suddenly changed, productivity suffers immensely. Many of us just really don't care about a new style--we prefer what we already know and just want to get the job done, quickly.

The new menu system is interesting, but, as far as I see it, just changes it from more of a text-based system (pull down bars) to more of a visual and graphical system (icons in tabs). This alone engages a completely different side of the brain when trying to comprehend and search through it. For some people, their brains have really become accustomed to operating the old way. I've not noticed siginificant improvements in my productivity since the switch to the new system.

Perhaps, people should be given a choice. We as consumers applaud when the internals and back-end of a product are improved--think Windows 95->Windows 98->Windows XP(ME was a mistake)->Windows 7(though there are some big interface changes here). Start messing with how we use it and interact with it and you've got a potential problem.

Computers are tools. The hammer and screwdriver haven't changed a whole lot in the last few centuries (though the electric screwdriver is pretty neat, the concept is the same). If you're going to mess with the interface, at least give the users the option to use the old interface or the newer one. That way--everyone wins.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Spuke on 4/5/2011 2:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you're going to mess with the interface, at least give the users the option to use the old interface or the newer one. That way--everyone wins.
What you say makes sense. I hear that argument quite a bit at work. There are sooooooooo many people that don't like change, for whatever reason, that I find it fruitless to do so. There are variations of the "no change" mentality from absolutely no change to where change is ok if it's for the better. I'm an IT guy and change is my job so it's no big deal to me, for better or worse. But for the average user, it's a huge deal. From my point of view, you got to move on sometime but I'm in the minority.

That all said, if I were designing an OS, I would really cater to the masses. Make it easy to get around plus be fully customizable for the tinkerers (customizations would require a patch to enable that feature). But it would literally be the same today as 10 years from now. The only changes would be to accommodate new software. Bet you I'd sell more than MS.

PS - Too bad I have NO desire to spend my life writing code.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Skywalker123 on 4/6/2011 6:50:29 PM , Rating: 2
That's too bad the world has lost a great genius, you could have been a contendah! You could have been bigger than Bill Gates and Steve Jobs put together.


RE: I like the ribon.
By RjBass on 4/6/2011 1:01:39 PM , Rating: 2
Yes but running old outdated Office software that no longer gets security updates can be more of a problem for large business's then listening to a bunch of complaints from people who don't like it.

Fact: If somebody's job depends on them learning how to use new software then they will and they will learn it fast.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Mr Perfect on 4/5/2011 12:34:13 PM , Rating: 2
Heh, yeah, I hear you. When we switched from Office 2003 to 2007, it was nothing but complaints. On the flip side, some time after the switch the very same people who complained about the ribbon where then annoyed when they had to use 2003 on secondary PCs.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 12:47:48 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Does it take some getting used to?


You could say that...in the same manner that becoming a paraplegic takes some "getting used to."

quote:
Does it make you more productive once you learn it?


No. Not even in the slightest.

quote:
Yes. Can you customize the crap out of it?


You'd have to - because out of the box, you don't even have easy access to functions as arcane as Save, Open, or Print.

quote:
Does anyone bother to even try to learn it or customize it to their needs?


It's supposed to be better than the old interface. You shouldn't have to waste your time fixing all the BS that Microsoft broke for you, and learning an utterly unintuitive new interface that exists for no reason other than MS needed to introduce something "new and improved."

The ribbon interface is a catastrophic failure. It makes nothing better, and makes lots of stuff worse. And saying that you can fix that by "customizing" it yourself is tantamount to admitting that it's an abject failure in the first place.


RE: I like the ribon.
By inighthawki on 4/5/2011 12:55:39 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
You could say that...in the same manner that becoming a paraplegic takes some "getting used to."

Or in the matter that anything you've never done does...
quote:
No. Not even in the slightest.

Pure opinion. I found it very easy to use and it made me far more productive. I also find it much easier to find things that I couldn't find in earlier builds
quote:
You'd have to - because out of the box, you don't even have easy access to functions as arcane as Save, Open, or Print.

I'm sorry but, how did you have trouble finding any of those three functions? If you had a problem with those then maybe you have a bigger issue.
quote:
It's supposed to be better than the old interface. You shouldn't have to waste your time...

You cannot cater to the needs of every single person. It's impossible. What does makes a good interface is one that makes it easiest to provide people with what they want when they want it, not necessarily right out of the box.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 4:45:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You cannot cater to the needs of every single person. It's impossible. What does makes a good interface is one that makes it easiest to provide people with what they want when they want it, not necessarily right out of the box.


The toolbars/menu did both of those things, with aplomb. The ribbon does neither.

Being "new" does not make something better than the "old" stuff. You're just not objective enough to see that...opting for shiny instead of useful.


RE: I like the ribon.
By tayb on 4/5/2011 7:37:14 PM , Rating: 1
No, the endless toolbars and drop down menu's did not. Crap was buried layers and layers deep and the only people who knew where all the customization was had training on it or spent hours trying to learn it. The UI was HORRIBLE.

You are just whining because you have to re-learn something and Microsoft isn't kissing your a$$ this time and giving you legacy support.

I laugh at the notion that you can be objective. The most objective person is someone who has never used the products. That person prefers the Ribbon.


RE: I like the ribon.
By StraightCashHomey on 4/5/11, Rating: 0
RE: I like the ribon.
By RjBass on 4/6/2011 1:04:55 PM , Rating: 3
This is very true. I held off on Win 3.2 or whatever it was for a long time because I preferred the command prompt.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 3:26:20 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You'd have to - because out of the box, you don't even have easy access to functions as arcane as Save, Open, or Print.


Its actually pretty funny that you bring up these 3 things as an example. I always thought that those 3 items are a complete waste of UI space (its good that they're behind a menu).

It is pretty universal (in windows) to have CTRL+S represent save, CTRL+O represent open, and CTRL+P represent print.

Please, never again make those three buttons part of the default UI toolbars.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Azethoth on 4/5/2011 4:21:44 PM , Rating: 2
Lol, just try using ctrl-S to "save" inside Outlook. OMG WTF it just mailed an incomplete message? Why would anyone be so aggressively retarded as to disregard what ctrl-s does on every other program, app, OS, etc on the entire planet?

Clearly MS is a company that gets UI.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 4:54:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lol, just try using ctrl-S to "save" inside Outlook. OMG WTF it just mailed an incomplete message?

I'm not sure what Outlook you're using, but CTRL+S is used to save in Outlook 2010.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 4/5/2011 5:25:32 PM , Rating: 1
He's talking about 2003 where it did infact send. /sigh


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 5:33:20 PM , Rating: 1
2k3 didn't have a ribbon, so I'm not exactly sure how that would help his argument.


RE: I like the ribon.
By iamezza on 4/6/2011 5:37:23 PM , Rating: 3
I'm using Outlook 2007 with the ribbon and Ctrl+S still sends


RE: I like the ribon.
By tayb on 4/5/2011 7:34:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You could say that...in the same manner that becoming a paraplegic takes some "getting used to."


Nice comparison. Coping with being a paraplegic as opposed to learning a new UI for office.

quote:
No. Not even in the slightest.


So, you haven't taken the time to learn it then. That's basically what these two sentences mean.

quote:
You'd have to - because out of the box, you don't even have easy access to functions as arcane as Save, Open, or Print.


If you couldn't find these three functions you probably shouldn't upgrade anyways. I don't want to insult your intelligence but it is pretty hard not to when you had trouble finding things that are so obvious.
quote:
It's supposed to be better than the old interface. You shouldn't have to waste your time fixing all the BS that Microsoft broke for you, and learning an utterly unintuitive new interface that exists for no reason other than MS needed to introduce something "new and improved." The ribbon interface is a catastrophic failure. It makes nothing better, and makes lots of stuff worse. And saying that you can fix that by "customizing" it yourself is tantamount to admitting that it's an abject failure in the first place.


The best way to determine which interface is better, easier to use, or more productive is to test both on someone who has NEVER used the product. These tests have been done. The ribbon is VASTLY superior to the old UI.

Everyone likes the ribbon except the people like yourself who REFUSE to adapt to changes in the UI. Do you really expect Microsoft to stick to all the drop down menu's forever just so that they can support legacy customers who refuse to embrace change? I'll tell you what. You can stay stationary and the rest of us will move on.

Keep using Office 2003.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 8:53:12 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Nice comparison. Coping with being a paraplegic as opposed to learning a new UI for office.


It's an apt comparison...you have to learn to do the same things you've always needed to do, but with a lot more trouble to get them done.

quote:
So, you haven't taken the time to learn it then. That's basically what these two sentences mean.


No, in my case it means I gave Office 2007 an honest year to get used to it. After a year I grudgingly had to accept the fact that the ribbon is an abject failure of a user interface, and went back to Office 2003.

quote:
If you couldn't find these three functions you probably shouldn't upgrade anyways. I don't want to insult your intelligence but it is pretty hard not to when you had trouble finding things that are so obvious.


And that right there is the trademark calling card of irrational Ribbonites. Of course I could *find* them. They stuck them in a menu, instead of having THE MOST OFTEN USED FUNCIONS EVER on a ribbon, or toolbar, or whatever. That is the best argument for how retarded the person was that came up with the ribbon...and the best argument for how wildly disconnected from reality you are, arguing that it makes perfect sense to hide the Print or New buttons in a menu while putting other BS that no one ever uses on the freaking ribbon.

quote:
The best way to determine which interface is better, easier to use, or more productive is to test both on someone who has NEVER used the product. These tests have been done. The ribbon is VASTLY superior to the old UI.


...someone who has never used the product is someone who has never used a computer. Who has no idea what they'd want to do anyway. Who's going to do whatever some instructor tells them to do. Utter failure of a "study."

The fact of the matter is that ribbonites vainly try to argue it's superiority over toolbars simply because it's new - and their brains are so faulty that they can only concieve of something new being better than something old. Despite the fact that there is no rational way to argue that the ribbon is better than a toolbar. Nothing got better with the ribbon...it was an enormous step back - and you're just going to keep on denying that fact because you can't process it.


RE: I like the ribon.
By lotharamious on 4/6/2011 10:14:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
No, in my case it means I gave Office 2007 an honest year to get used to it.

Every day for a whole year? Every day to get used to a silly UI change? You can't figure it out after a whole year? Or maybe you only used it once a week, or maybe once a month. Sounds more like every 4 months when you absolutely *had* to write someone a note about how much the ribbon sucks.
quote:
...someone who has never used the product is someone who has never used a computer. Who has no idea what they'd want to do anyway. Who's going to do whatever some instructor tells them to do.

I hate to tell break it to you, but people aren't going to be using Office 2003/07/10/Office 15/Office 16, etc. forever. Someday, we're going to have grandkids who aren't going to have the slightest clue what a "menu bar" is anyway. Our kids are growing up with the ribbon right now, and that's what they'll be used to.

I used to hate the Office 2007 ribbon too. I thought it was awful and I thought exactly like you. But after actually using Word maybe 2 dozen times over a few months, I got used to it... and I can't believe how much *better* it really is. When I got 2010, the ribbon was even better. Go back to your hole.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/6/2011 12:19:14 PM , Rating: 2
You're just simply wrong. There is NOTHING you can point to about the ribbon that is better than toolbars...nothing. It's simply newer.

Here is the #1 irrefutable fact that cannot be disproven by you ribbonites: toolbars expose more functionality in the same space used by the ribbon.

Period. The ribbon WASTES SPACE. Because of that, there are FEWER OPTIONS available at any given time. It makes EVERYTHING HARDER because you have to waste time changing what ribbon you're looking at instead of making one mouse click on one button that's already being presented to you by a toolbar.

There is nothing you can do to change that fact - and looking at Office 2003 side by side with 2007 or 2010 demonstrates that perfectly. The ribbon requires more clicks - and that is an indisputable fact.


RE: I like the ribon.
By kmmatney on 4/5/2011 1:00:31 PM , Rating: 4
The problem I have with the ribbon is all the vertical space it takes up, especially with all the crappy 16:9 screens, which already take away vertical space.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Drag0nFire on 4/5/2011 1:36:26 PM , Rating: 2
+1

With 16:9 screens, I need all the vertical space I can get.


RE: I like the ribon.
By fleshconsumed on 4/5/2011 1:36:46 PM , Rating: 2
Precisely. Take a closer look at the dailytech screenshots, especially at the size of explorer pane relative to the size of the ribbon bar, that's a very bad ratio IMO, and that's with explorer maximized already.


RE: I like the ribon.
By quiksilvr on 4/5/2011 1:45:44 PM , Rating: 2
I am so sick and tired of hearing this complaint. DOUBLE CLICK THE TAB UP TOP. It minimizes it and only pops up when you click any of the tabs (Home, Insert, etc.) and disappears when you click within the document.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 1:59:27 PM , Rating: 2
...so, if I do something extra, the ribbon will temporarily only take up as much space as the toolbar used to...without having to do anything extra?

This is the problem..."if you just do X it's fine!" is the mantra of all the Ribbonites. You never had to do jack sh1t with the toolbars. You didn't have to manually add New, Open, and Print to a toolbar...they were already there. You didn't have to click a button to make them take up less screen space, then click it again when you needed access to a function...

Adding MORE CLICKS does not a better interface make.


RE: I like the ribon.
By omnicronx on 4/5/2011 3:17:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You never had to do jack sh1t with the toolbars.
Of course you did, you had to go through numerous context menus to find the options you wanted.

Just because you now remember where everything is because you have been using it for 20 years, hardly makes it any more intuitive or easier to use.

As for options you use all the time, such as print, open and new.. they are usual on the main menu of the ribbon. (so not exactly sure what you are talking about)

You can also default it to have the ribbon minimized, so you don't have to click anything to make it take up less screen space if that is how you like to look at it.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 3:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You never had to do jack sh1t with the toolbars


I think you meant to say "You never could do jack sh1t with the toolbars"

It was pretty much impossible to add custom behavior to any of the default toolbars in windows. The ribbon finally fixes that.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 4:42:56 PM , Rating: 2
Uh, what?

Try right clicking and select Customize.

The point is that you didn't *have* to. Everything you ever needed was right there, no BS "configure it for your use" like you have to do with the ribbons.

The ribbon doesn't fix anything - it makes nothing better.

Anyone who tries to pretend the ribbon is an improvement is someone who just simply thinks that "new" is magically better than "old." Because there categorically is nothing the ribbons made easier than the toolbars did...and many things they made worse.

...but since the ribbon is "new" it therefore must be good, and since toolbars are "old" they must be bad, right?

You'll notice that in the years since MS infected the world with the ribbon, *nobody* has made any attempt to copy it. Good ideas get copied. Bad ideas...don't.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 4:59:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Try right clicking and select Customize.

I just opened up windows explorer, and right clicked on the toolbar, however, no context menu popped up, so I'm not sure where you get the "customize" option.

I'm using windows 7, and I would like to add a button that opens up the command prompt to the current active directory in explorer.

Where exactly is this magic "customize" option you're talking about? Oh, right, you have no clue what you're talking about.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 5:48:40 PM , Rating: 2
We are talking about Office, yes?

http://www.4shared.com/photo/nsME52aM/wordcust.htm...

Right-click a toolbar in Word, Excel, whatever...select Customize.

Oooooo...magic.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:07:14 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, my post talked about windows:

quote:
It was pretty much impossible to add custom behavior to any of the default toolbars in windows . The ribbon finally fixes that.


You can scroll up - its the one you replied to. And this article talks about adding ribbons to Explorer, so I thought I would use that as an example...


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 6:12:51 PM , Rating: 2
Well, considering that Windows Explorer in Win7 doesn't even *have* toolbars (it has a newish kind of menu bar - but no toolbars), the point is moot. I don't have a Vista machine handy...but in XP I know that Windows Explorer did have toolbars (or at least a toolbar), and you could right-click and customize it too.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:17:01 PM , Rating: 2
If you're talking about the file menu, windows explorer has that in Win7 - press the ALT key. That also cannot be easily customized.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 8:54:30 PM , Rating: 2
...why are you talking about that? Must be because you're trying to avoid the fact that you're wrong about customizing toolbars.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 9:27:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...why are you talking about that? Must be because you're trying to avoid the fact that you're wrong about customizing toolbars.

Go ahead and think that. You can say I'm wrong, but I bet you can't show me one example of how I can easily customize the toolbar for ANY one window in Windows.

And I brought up the ALT key because you statement that that feature is missing is flat out wrong . You seem to have no problem making totally absurd statements. All I pointed out was that the last one can be easily proven wrong by pressing one key on the keyboard.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 10:05:48 PM , Rating: 2
I just did. Look at the image I liked. Done.

You declaring that you can't easily customize a toolbar doesn't jive with reality.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/6/2011 3:05:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I just did. Look at the image I liked. Done

Since when is Word = Windows?

You seem to be completely confused about the subject you're replying to. Again, show me one place in windows where it is easy to customize a toolbar.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/6/2011 6:13:34 PM , Rating: 2
AS HAS BEEN STATED ALREADY...Windows Explorer no longer even has toolbars in Win7. You're complaining that you can't customize something that doesn't exist?

As far as I can tell, toolbars are gone entirely from the Win7 general GUI. So exactly what is it that you're trying to customize?

I have already stated that in WinXP, Windows Explorer (and essentially everything else) DID have toolbars, and you customized them in exactly the same what you do in Office, as I showed in the linked pic.

Stop demanding to be shown proof of how one can customize something that doesn't even exist.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/6/2011 6:16:28 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and by the way...in Win7 where they've removed toolbars from the GUI, did they replace them with the ribbon?

Nope.

They replaced them with menus. Which is actually really very strange...since the beauty of the toolbars is that you almost never needed to go to the menu anyway.

Which reminds me...clicking on a file menu item to get a particular list of functions is different from clicking on a different ribbon to get a particular list of functions...how?

With toolbars, you had little reason to ever go to the file menu. With the ribbon, you constantly have to change the ribbon. Waste of space, waste of clicks, waste of time.

Just like you...perpetually demanding to be shown how to customize toolbars that don't even exist - and have been replaced not with your precious ribbon, but with drop-down menus.


RE: I like the ribon.
By AskTheChief on 4/5/2011 2:29:07 PM , Rating: 2
I agree 100%.

How about letting us move the Ribbon to the side?


RE: I like the ribon.
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 4/5/2011 5:43:46 PM , Rating: 1
Hrm, that isn't a bad idea actually. The Taskbar can be moved to the sides or the top, no reason the Ribbon can't be made to do the same. Submit it as a feature idea to Microsoft, they might even let you be a tester. :P


RE: I like the ribon.
By nafhan on 4/5/2011 4:37:58 PM , Rating: 2
If you're looking in the same price range, I've noticed that most of the "crappy" 16:9 screens have replaced crappy 4:3 or 5:4 screens with nearly the same number of vertical pixels. You're essentially getting free horizontal pixels that you may not need.

For example:
1024x768 >> 1366x768
1280x1024 >> 1920x1080

I still agree that a vertical ribbon would make MUCH better use of the space on modern computer monitors. Just saying 16:9 generally isn't taking away vertical space...


RE: I like the ribon.
By MozeeToby on 4/5/2011 1:38:46 PM , Rating: 2
You could put the same level of effort into learning hot keys and see an even bigger jump in productivity. As a rule, I don't ever want to take my hands off the keyboard; something that the ribbon makes more difficult rather than easier.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 3:34:00 PM , Rating: 2
I suggest reading pretty much any article about the ribbon and you'll realize just how wrong you are. The ribbon is easier (and especially faster) to navigate using a keyboard than any menu system they had in windows before.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Azethoth on 4/5/2011 4:27:56 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is actually the bastard menu system they had with all the 2 key combos. How tarded. Mac already showed you just need ctrl-<key>. alt-f-<wtf?> indeed.

Now the problem with the new ribbon is I type my key combo and it does not work. Oh man. Winning!


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 5:10:00 PM , Rating: 2
The difference is that the ribbon is now a standard component. The navigation in this component is now universal across ever program that adopts this component.

In the "old" menu system, it was completely up to the developer to determine how keyboard navigation works (even if it will work at all).

What it all boils down to is that now there will be a single universal method to navigate a program's UI. You will only have to learn one set of keyboard shortcuts, where before you had to learn keyboard shortcuts for each program (although many did choose to use a similar key mapping).


RE: I like the ribon.
By Hieyeck on 4/5/2011 1:40:30 PM , Rating: 2
The point is, it's great you can customize it, but this isn't WoW. The UI should be:
1. intuitive. it should be working out of the box. businesses and business users (and let's face it - THESE are the real paying customers) just want it to work.
2. standardized. you'll have a revolt from IT support if every other user has their save button in their own preferred-but-obscure position.

Change isn't a bad thing, but gradual change is the key. like XP vs Vista, it was a huge mess because Vista was actually bad, but half of it because the UI changed significantly.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Argon18 on 4/5/2011 3:12:39 PM , Rating: 2
more productive?? what a load of crap. what used to take just two clicks from the drop-down menus, now takes half a dozen or more. The ribbon sucks, plain and simple. This is true, even for the most basic and common tasks. Here's an example. Old way to print? File -> Print. See how easy that was? New way? File -> Print -> Print Options -> Print. 4 clicks instead of 2. Twice as many clicks to get the same screen. #$%& this garbage ribbon.


RE: I like the ribon.
By omnicronx on 4/5/2011 3:25:32 PM , Rating: 2
Its people like yourself that take a two second look at the ribbon and pretend as though you know everything about it that gives it the ribbon such bad press.

In Office.

Window Button -> Print Context Menu -> Quick Print.

Exactly the same amount of clicks as in previous versions of office.

The functionality of the print button has changed, mainly due to the fact many PC's are attached to more than one printer, and many users like to play with the settings.

Quick print has the same functionality as just pressing the print button in previous versions of office.

A large percentage of Ribbon haters I've come across have not given it the time of day to be making such statements in the first place, I guess I can added you to that category..


RE: I like the ribon.
By Azethoth on 4/5/2011 4:32:38 PM , Rating: 2
Epic fail dude. His accusation was: File->Print. So 2 actions.

Your defense is "Window Button -> Print Context Menu -> Quick Print". I count 3 actions.

Mathematically 2 < 3 so your fancy pants new way sucks.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 5:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
Print is one of the actions that takes more clicks, probably because most people use the CTRL+P shortcut, which requires no mouse clicks and is pretty universal across windows programs. Not to mention that printing is something that happens pretty rarely during the document lifecycle, when compared to many other actions such as formatting text, alignment, pasting, etc.

Also, this probably isn't an argument that you should be fighting when it comes to the ribbon. There are far more commands in (for example) Word that can be done in one click with the ribbon, whereas they would take 2 or more clicks in the old style menu.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 5:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are far more commands in (for example) Word that can be done in one click with the ribbon, whereas they would take 2 or more clicks in the old style menu.


...none of which are normal commands that typical users use during the normal course of their day.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:03:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...none of which are normal commands that typical users use during the normal course of their day

Says who? You?

I remember many articles, one of which may even have been on this site, that talked about how Microsoft studied thousands of users to determine how they used Office software. I even participated in a program (got a free Office 2k7 out of it).

The commands that are in the ribbon are the most used commands from those trials. It's no accident that "paste" is the first command in the main tab in the ribbon - it is the most used command in Word.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 6:17:40 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, and Burger King taste-tested their "new and improved" fries on thousands of people before implementing them - and then had the worst fries in the industry for several years until giving up on them just recently.

Coca-Cola taste-tested New Coke on thousands...so on and so forth. I suspect, strongly, some kind of huge bias in the tests that produced the results the testers wanted.

...especially, adamantly, when the "most used features" didn't even include Print, Open, New, or Save. Really? People didn't create New documents enough to get a button? Or print?

It's hard to put much value in that "study" when such blindingly obvious functions were left in the cold.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:25:22 PM , Rating: 3
Ok... lets assume you're creating a new document. You do that once . However, you'll probably need to make many things bold, underlined, italic, change color, etc many times.

So, one click on "new" document, while many clicks on all of the other functions. Considering that you have limited space in the ribbon, I think it makes perfect sense that the "new" action is in a drop down.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 8:46:04 PM , Rating: 2
Uh-huh. And the toolbar had room for all of that...and more. By default. No "customization." You have no argument.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/6/2011 3:13:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Uh-huh. And the toolbar had room for all of that...and more. By default. No "customization." You have no argument.

The word 2k3 toolbar had about 30 items on it. The Word 2010 ribbon has probably around 150 items on it. Sure, the toolbar has room for all 150 items, but it will end up taking up way more space than the ribbon in order to do that - and it would be a LOT more confusing to have those 150 items listed in a toolbar than in a ribbon (since the ribbon offers more containers to organize content). And the great thing about the ribbon is that you can add 150 more items in there and it won't take up any more space.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/6/2011 6:25:43 PM , Rating: 2
The ribbon categorically does not have that many functions on it. At least, not each individual ribbon. There are, actually, several ribbons...you have to click which one you want to see. Each one wastes a lot of space and shows a smaller selection of functions than what you could have with toolbars taking up the same amount of space...without having to switch from one to the other.

All you've done is swapped clicking on a menu item for clicking on a ribbon item. Same difference. Except now you get to waste more space...and not have as many functions available, in that same space, at the same time.

The great thing about the toolbars, or at least one great thing, was that you had essentially all the functions you ever needed right there...no swapping anything, and very seldom a need to go to the file menu. With the ribbon, you're constantly changing what ribbon you look at...back and forth, searching for stuff that's not on the ribbon currently shown.

Toolbars = less using file menu, more functions accessible at the same time.

How, exactly, is clicking on a different ribbon to get to a different set of functions any different than clicking on a file menu to get a different set of functions? Oh that's right...it isn't.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 5:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
It's worse than that.

There was a Print button on the toolbar that by default was already there.

One click. One. As in, 3 is 300% as many clicks.

If you wanted a function so obscure as "print" accessible as a simple button (seriously, who prints? Or makes a New document? Opens? Closes?), you had to "customize" the interface.

...which goes to show that the person who created the ribbon is retarded - hiding the MOST OFTEN USED commands in a menu, instead of having them out in the open like they should be.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:19:43 PM , Rating: 2
So you're upset that Office and Windows aren't customized to the commands that YOU use the most? I think you're taking those "Windows 7 was my idea" commercials too seriously :)


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 6:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
...seriously? You think that Save, Open, New, and Print are so obscure that only *I* would possible use them?

Do you have the slightest idea how retarded you sound?


RE: I like the ribon.
By Murst on 4/5/2011 9:34:26 PM , Rating: 2
It is based on frequency. How can you still not understand that after all the other posts? It makes absolutely NO sense to put something like "New" as a button in the ribbon if it is guaranteed to be used only once in the document lifecycle.

And you're trying to twist what I was saying in the first place. I never said you're the only one who uses those features... pretty much everyone does. However, you seem to think that those are the most common features in Office. Obviously MS disagrees (and they most likely have the research to back that up).


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 10:03:48 PM , Rating: 2
...and with toolbars instead of ribbons, you can have ALL of that functionality, and more, right out in the open with NO NEED to use a menu.

THAT is the point. The ribbon exposes less functionality. Period.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/5/2011 6:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
Also, as I have stated in past articles on this topic, I installed Office 2007 right when it came out, and gave it a solid year to get used to the ribbon interface.

After a year of nothing but frustration, I uninstalled it and went back to 2003. 2007 (and 2010) do absolutely nothing new that I have any interest in, and the ribbon interface is just simply a huge step backwards from the toolbars - and there's no way around that fact. It takes more work to use the ribbon than the toolbars. Period, end of story.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Skywalker123 on 4/6/2011 7:15:04 PM , Rating: 2
If you can't learn the ribbon in a year, you are guilty of the mental retardation you accuse others of.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Motoman on 4/7/2011 9:48:14 AM , Rating: 2
"Learning it" isn't a problem. Not admitting that it's considerably worse than the toolbars that came before is sheer stupidity.


RE: I like the ribon.
By tygrus on 4/12/2011 6:41:05 AM , Rating: 2
I find it harder to visually differentiate the icons in the ribbon than to go through the menu and dialog buttons. Insert page break used to be Alt-I Enter Enter now it's Alt-I B Enter which is slower. I once used Office97 a lot and several tasks could be done quicker and with less fuss. Position pictures with text and manually edit size, position and wrapping. Office 2003 drives me crazy that they moved it deeper into a sub-dialog box. They may try to make the common tasks quicker but it's at the cost of making other tasks slower. Who decides which are which.
I constantly exceed the top 10 far less top 5 apps, docs, menus etc. I use more than the 20% that 80% of others only use. I've used Office 2007 and 2010 for a while but still battle to find things I used to use. Are they somewhere in the first tabset, Insert or Layout. They took away the list of open documents in favour of using the taskbar with separate windows.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Argon18 on 4/5/2011 3:13:25 PM , Rating: 2
more productive?? what a load of crap. what used to take just two clicks from the drop-down menus, now takes half a dozen or more. The ribbon sucks, plain and simple. This is true, even for the most basic and common tasks. Here's an example. Old way to print? File -> Print. See how easy that was? New way? File -> Print -> Print Options -> Print. 4 clicks instead of 2. Twice as many clicks to get the same screen. #$%& this garbage ribbon.


RE: I like the ribon.
By Aloonatic on 4/5/2011 4:06:59 PM , Rating: 2
I can't really disagree with you, but I think you are being a little harsh on the masses (who I assume you are referring to) and in mitigation for those who "wont bother to even try to learn it..."

To them, an OS is just something that they use to do what they want to do for as little time as they need it, and that's all. They don't really have the inclination to tinker, but why should they? Just as a lot of people here don't have the inclination tinker with a bolognese sauce and just use whatever falls out of a jar, and why not when it works? Also, the old menus (File, Edit...) have been with us for how long? Pretty much for as long as Windows has been commonly found in the average home and office, so it's bound to take a while for any change to catch on and for people to get the hang of it, then maybe more people will bother to see what more it can do.

So when Windows 14 comes out, and we have a new holographic, or 3D interface, expect a similar smart/clever comment from someone in the future, when everyone's used to the ribbon and see no real advantage to the new interface too. You might even be on of those who thinks that it's a change too far as well.


RE: I like the ribon.
By superPC on 4/6/2011 8:22:34 AM , Rating: 2
actually the ribbon UI mimics the UI of SolidWorks and CATIA. for those software NOT using ribbon line UI would mean lots of productivity lost because of all the time searching for the right menu. office however doesn't have as much option and abilities whithin them to justify the ribbon IMHO. but still i admit that once i got use to it, it works as well as the old UI.


Good news
By 7Enigma on 4/5/2011 1:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
Is Windows 7 is good enough that as long as they don't nuke it for gaming with some revolutionary DirectX version I just can't live without I see no need to upgrade for a LONGGGG time. Heck I'm still running XP on my non-gaming rigs. Why? Does everything I need with a small software footprint that makes older systems run nice and speedy.

Microsoft might find out that when they actually make something good (OS), we don't really NEED anything else. And I've got enough CD keys over the years from older products that unless they deactivate I'll be fine between XP and 7. :)




RE: Good news
By 7Enigma on 4/5/2011 1:41:48 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly if they just gave the OPTION to revert to "classic" view everything would be fine. New users that prefer the ribbon would be thrilled and those of us that prefer the classic view wouldn't complain since it's a simple option.

That's really what I dislike about the ribbon more than the ribbon itself. It's the Apple feeling that I'm being TOLD what I should use....


RE: Good news
By bigboxes on 4/5/2011 4:20:54 PM , Rating: 2
There are patches that add a menu tab so that those that cannot learn will still have the old familiar. I have one installed in Office 2007. Of course, I quickly learned how easy to use the ribbon was after I installed the patch that I rarely ever use the old menu toolbar anymore.


RE: Good news
By Azethoth on 4/5/2011 4:37:11 PM , Rating: 2
Well the search for a good enough OS is over, and it is windows 7. It is so freaking stable, I only restart it once a month on patch Tuesdays (well it restarts itself at night).


RE: Good news
By 7Enigma on 4/5/2011 6:16:07 PM , Rating: 2
Well except for SP1 which bricked my system and required a system restore from the disk to get working. Still haven't tried to install it again....


RE: Good news
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:37:37 PM , Rating: 2
They also seem to have fixed system restore. I didn't have much luck with it in Vista.


RE: Good news
By JediJeb on 4/6/2011 2:09:10 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly W2K was good enough for me, if my drive hadn't crashed and I could no longer find my install disk I would still be using it instead of XP.

As for stability claims for W7, I could go almost a year without rebooting in W2K and it would still be stable, usually my reboots were caused by power outages. I also have some WinNT4 computers at work that go over a year without reboots with no problems. Of course running machines with them instead of surfing the internet keeps them in much better shape OS wise.


I'm so excited for Win 7
By phatboye on 4/5/2011 12:18:15 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Windows 7 is rumored to ship in 2012 by numerous sources.


I can't wait till windows 7 is released in 2012




RE: I'm so excited for Win 7
By CrazyBernie on 4/5/2011 12:22:28 PM , Rating: 3
Wait until Windows 2000 comes out... it'll be the bomb-diggity!


RE: I'm so excited for Win 7
By Mr Perfect on 4/5/2011 12:28:18 PM , Rating: 4
We'll party like it's 1999!


Hidden Menus
By acer905 on 4/5/2011 12:32:23 PM , Rating: 2
It might actually work as the interface for Explorer, considering Microsoft hid the menus for Vista and 7. This just seems to be a way to show all the missing stuff again, and it makes the Windows experience more.... consistant. Office, Explorer, Paint, even Wordpad would all follow the ribbon design. And, having had time since they forced the ribbon on us, many people actually don't hate it anymore....

at least not as much




RE: Hidden Menus
By Belard on 4/5/2011 6:15:18 PM , Rating: 2
In one of my offices, I've finally been able to deploy Office 2010 to replace Office 2003 - as a few modern tools were having problems with the older Office.. We tested one machine out, as most didn't want to change. Everyone loves office 2010.

Even I am GOOD with the Ribbon design, I think its great for typical users to learn how to do more with the computer. It takes up a bit more space (okay, about 60% more than a normal menu bar) - but it does make some things easier - WHEN DONE RIGHT.

Ribbon on Explorer... I'm seeing LOTS of wasted space. I use explorer to work with file names, dates, etc... I need as much file-space view as possible. That will make WORK harder. Even with Explorer for Win7, I had to make it work more like older explorer to get more functionality out of it.

For many Applications - Ribbon should be good to use. ie: Photoshop would be BAD to use ribbon.

So far... Windows8 isn't looking so hot.


RE: Hidden Menus
By Murst on 4/5/2011 6:35:03 PM , Rating: 2
Photoshop CS5 already uses something similar to a ribbon (in that it uses up a lot more space). I wasn't too happy with that change at first, but I've gotten used to it. It is context sensitive and is generally useful.

While I would love to have the ribbon on win explorer, I do think that we should be able to hide it (or minimize it), kind of like we can hide the file menu right now using the ALT key. I just want the ability to customize what appears in explorer, as the current toolbar/menu system isn't very flexible.


Hmmm
By captainBOB on 4/6/2011 4:58:28 PM , Rating: 2
The Ribbon UI is great at consolidating all the most used functions of an application into logical, visible groups.

I just don't see it working in Explorer though, where much of the interfacing happens via right click menus.




RE: Hmmm
By cactusdog on 4/6/2011 11:53:25 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is their is to many dickheads. If people werent dickheads we could all get along. I heard Hosni Mubarak's young son Skippy Mubarak is going to run Egypt. Enough said.


RE: Hmmm
By cactusdog on 4/7/2011 2:08:53 AM , Rating: 2
Good comment.


OSX vs Windows
By ebakke on 4/5/2011 1:08:34 PM , Rating: 1
Apple's OSX is more and more appealing by the day.




RE: OSX vs Windows
By gamerk2 on 4/5/2011 1:17:50 PM , Rating: 2
You do know their next OS release is roumered to be the iOS interface, right?


RE: OSX vs Windows
By Spuke on 4/5/2011 2:54:41 PM , Rating: 2
I use OSX and don't find it anymore intuitive than Windows. It's still a learning curve.


Ribbon bully!
By fatbaldandhappy on 4/5/2011 4:43:07 PM , Rating: 5
Who? Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon!




Users who never used a computer before at work
By Tyhr on 4/5/2011 2:49:59 PM , Rating: 2
> They stated that the best test of whether or not the ribbon is a good idea is how new users (e.g. young students) react to it.

If only new users were going to use the new UI, then that would make sense. But I hardly think there are cubicles filled with current workers who have never used a computer before but are expected to use Ribbon.

Young student car drivers would have no problems reacting to having the brake pedal on the right hand side of the gas pedal in North America. Perhaps studies show that their reaction time to avoid collisions is faster due to the majority of drivers being right-handed. That does not mean it's a good idea to start switching over now that the pedal locations have been engrained in our minds.

Dvorak keyboards are superior in speed to the antiquated qwerty layout. Why have we not shifted over to that? Seriously?
(fyi - qwerty keyboards were created specifically to slow down English writing in order to minimize the jamming of manual typewriters. The Dvorak layout was created to optimize speed.)




By Belard on 4/5/2011 7:52:13 PM , Rating: 2
Brake pedals are not on the left side of the accelerator pedal because of right-handed vs. left handed.

Its for braking power during emergencies - when you may need or use both feet and faster reaction time. Remember, some cars has manual transmissions with the clutch on the left side.

The brake pedal is in fact in the MIDDLE.

Dvorak keyboards are better... but like anything else in life - the creation of standards dictate what the masses use. Our primary computers are: Windows PC / Mac then Linux. In the 80s, we had about 10 or so major standards in the western market alone.
PC-Dos (ugh), CP/m (8bit DOS - which MS bought a reverse engineered version and renamed "MS-DOS"), Apple OS, CBM (Commodore 64/128), Amiga, GEM (Atari ST), Mac OS, TRS80, Ti/4A and even Atari 8bit.

MS-DOS ruled the market because it was an OS that allowed ANYONE to start a company and sell PC Clones (Dell, Compaq even Commodore) at one point there were thousands of PC Clone companies. So with numbers, pretty much the worst OS of the 80s (MS-DOS) became the standard even thou Amiga, MacOS and even GEM were more advanced and modern.

With QWERTY - its almost impossible to get anyone to convert.
AFAIK - nobody seems to be selling a ready to go Dvorak keyboard. :(

I wish Dvorak was a standard, but I also wish the USA would standardize on the metric system, which is far more accurate and easier to work with.


DX12 or bust!
By riottime on 4/5/2011 11:38:04 PM , Rating: 2
i don't want to hear about any ribbons. just tell me windows 8 comes with directx 12 and i'll be the first in line. ;P




RE: DX12 or bust!
By lotharamious on 4/6/2011 12:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
And what features do you want implemented in DirectX 12? Do you know anything about graphics or programming paradigms that aren't already implemented in DirectX 11? I'd sure like to know.


I'd like to wipe my a$$ with the M$ ribbon...
By Integral9 on 4/6/2011 10:53:41 AM , Rating: 2
Just sayin. I really hate that annoying embelishment of gratuitus UI. And to those of you that say it's customizable, I say BS! That things about as customizable as my ass. I could see it as a useful tool, but you can't do anything with it without using "XML and programming code" and what user is going to do that?

Things you can't do:
* Add to or rearrange the commands on the Ribbon.
* Change or remove a command or group on the Ribbon.
* Add tabs to the Ribbon, unless you use XML and programming code.
* Switch to the toolbars and menus from earlier versions of Microsoft Office.
* Change the font or font size used on the Ribbon.

Things you can do:
* Minimize the Ribbon to make more space available on your screen.
* Move the Quick Access Toolbar to position it below or above the Ribbon.
* Customize the Quick Access Toolbar to add buttons that represent the commands that you frequently use.
* Use XML and programming code to extend the Office Fluent user interface by adding custom tabs, buttons, check boxes, or Dialog Box Launchers.
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/can-i-...

If it didn't cost $100 for 8 roles, I'd order custom TP with the microsoft ribbon on it so I could wipe my ass with it.




By lotharamious on 4/6/2011 11:38:59 AM , Rating: 2
Things you can't do:
* Add to or rearrange the commands in the menu
* Change or remove a command or group in the menu
* Add menus to the menu, unless you have access to the source code
* Switch to the Ribbon of newer versions of Microsoft Office
* Change the font or font size used in the menu

o.O


Really, really dislike the ribbon!
By DrApop on 4/8/2011 8:07:39 PM , Rating: 2
I really, really dislike the ribbon. It was a pure waste of engineering and programming effort.....as well as screen space.

Why do I say this....because the office products of yore already had a freaking ribbon. It was called the button bar!!!

Little button icons I could arrange the way I wanted and with what I wanted. Everyone here is comparing the ribbon to the menu system....that is WRONG. The ribbon is a bloated version of the very simple icon based button bar

And the button bar worked!




By p05esto on 4/9/2011 11:31:53 AM , Rating: 2
I agree COMPLETELY. I hate comments that say learn something new, times change. Grow up. I'm a web developer of 15 years, I'm not afraid to learn something new...I'm saying as a power used probably by much more than most of the people posting here I LIKE the button/menu system much better. After 4 years I STILL do not like the ribbon and on my last system build I considered for a long time going back to office 2003. I didn't, but the damn ribbon bar was the issue in my head.


Not explorer please no....
By Jedi2155 on 4/5/2011 12:28:56 PM , Rating: 2
I personally like ribbons based on their implementation in Office 2010, but based on the screenshots provided it looks more like a proof of concept than anything serious. I would hold out longer before making a final judgement on it. Although they would really need to reduce the footprint of the ribbon before I'd be comfortable using it in explorer unless that do something amazing to the Ribbon.

quote:
Windows 7 is rumored to ship in 2012 by numerous sources.
probably meant Windows 8 here.




in windows explorer...
By zodiacfml on 4/6/2011 4:41:45 AM , Rating: 2
..I never used any of the menus.
The feature works though in Office, to hide all the clutter in exchange of more clicks.




Looks like a business UI
By psonice on 4/6/2011 5:24:49 AM , Rating: 2
There's a widely held belief that the market is getting more 'consumer oriented', what with the stuff apple's doing (ipad and the iOS stuff in lion), win mobile 7, and android tablets and the like. MS was rumoured to be making win 8 tablet friendly too. So this is about the last thing I'd expect to see! Can you imagine using the ribbon on a 7" tablet?

Not to say the ribbon is a bad thing. It could be a good productivity aid on the desktop, and for power users. So maybe this is the windows 'business' UI, and there will be a 'consumer'/'tablet friendly' UI with a simplified feature set?

Would that be a good idea though? You'd have 2 different UIs, but only use one or the other presumably. But your applications are still going to be written for the old UI initially. And then some apps will be written for one or the other.. which won't work well when it's the wrong one. Or we'll have to write apps for both UIs? That won't work well either, because a simplified touch-based UI is usually quite a different layout to a mouse + keyboard driven one. You'd potentially have a quite different looking app on the desktop and the tablet, despite it being the same software on the same OS!

Or maybe MS is just staking it's claim on the business desktop, and not taking the home + tablet market too seriously?




By spamreader1 on 4/6/2011 9:34:27 AM , Rating: 2
Then I don't care.




By AerieC on 4/6/2011 1:23:34 PM , Rating: 2
Are people really still complaining about the ribbon 4 years later? It took me maybe a few hours to get used to the new interface and I haven't thought about it since... (And that's regularly using word, excel, powerpoint and outlook).

I honestly laugh when people gripe and whine over having to, omg, LEARN SOMETHING NEW! *Play scary music here*

Was the ribbon a hugely needed and long-awaited new feature? Of course not, but once you get used to it (which again, really shouldn't take more than a few hours) it does feel faster and more intuitive (at least to me). I guess I could see people who have to use office programs maybe once a month complaining because they don't use the software often enough to actually really benefit (and I'd imagine it's harder to learn the new UI if you don't get a chance to really dig in). If you're that unhappy with it, then just stick to 2003 and the compatibility pack and stop complaining. No one cares that, "teh new technology confuddles you!".

Technology is, and always will be, ever-changing. You either learn it quickly and move on, or get left behind. You'd think people on dailytech would realize and accept that fact.




nope
By p05esto on 4/9/2011 11:27:25 AM , Rating: 2
I HATE the ribbon bar, I don't care if it can be customized. I sit for minutes searching around for options that frankly I still can't find in the ribbon anywhere, I have no idea where they are. If they want a ribbon then please for the love of god offer a classic interface option that has cascading menu options. I hate that MS is forcing users of Windows and their other products to use a certain layout and style without the option to switch to a normal interface arrangement.

Please do not even respond to this message, I don't care. I hate the ribbon and won't like it one bit unless I can use a streamlined and fast cascading menu to choose options from. The menus are fast because it's a STANDARD, all software puts the same types of actions under the same menu names. When you flip that all around I do NOT care if you think it's better, it's not standard and thus NOT easier to use. END.




"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki