backtop


Print 124 comment(s) - last by afkrotch.. on Jun 17 at 9:49 AM


Windows 7 box art
Even Windows 7 "N" versions will not have IE

Microsoft is anticipating great success with its new Windows 7 operating system, but is being wary of any antitrust violations that may occur. The company has already been fined over $2 billion USD by the European Commission for previous infractions, including a record setting $1.4 billion USD fine in February of last year.
 
Those infractions centered on Microsoft's inclusion of Windows Media Player in Windows XP. After several costly appeals, the firm relented and shipped "N" versions of Windows XP and Windows Vista in order to comply with the European Commission's directives.

Earlier this year, the European Commission moved to require Microsoft to package third-party browser software with Windows.  Those rules would also require Microsoft to provide support to make third-party browsers work with Windows components, such as Windows Explorer. Microsoft is currently in litigation to appeal the introduction of those rules.

In order to avoid any potential problems, Microsoft will ship special European versions of all its Windows 7 editions. Both 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows 7 will be available, but will be appended with an "E" at the end of the product name. For example, "Windows 7 Home Premium E" will most likely be the most common edition in Europe.  The "E" versions of Windows 7 will ship on October 22, the same time as Windows 7 ships to the rest of the world. Global language support is extensive, and in Europe alone Windows 7 will be available in 23 European languages.

"We're committed to making Windows 7 available in Europe at the same time that it launches in the rest of the world, but we also must comply with European competition law as we launch the product," wrote Dave Heiner, Vice President and Deputy General Counsel for Microsoft.

The "E" versions will be sold alongside new Windows 7 "N" versions in Europe, with the only difference being that "N" versions do not include Windows Media Player. "Microsoft will not offer for distribution in the European territory the Windows 7 product versions that contain IE, which are intended for distribution in the rest of the world," Microsoft said in a memo distributed to its OEM partners. "This will apply to both OEM and Retail versions of Windows 7 products." 

OEMs can choose to add any browser they want to their Windows 7 machines, including Internet Explorer, so European consumers who are purchasing new PCs will be still be able to access the Internet.  Consumers will also be able to add any web browser to their PCs, to supplement or replace the browsers preinstalled by their computer manufacturer.
 
"Given the pending legal proceeding, we’ve decided that instead of including Internet Explorer in Windows 7 in Europe, we will offer it separately and on an easy-to-install basis to both computer manufacturers and users.  This means that computer manufacturers and users will be free to install Internet Explorer on Windows 7, or not, as they prefer. Of course, they will also be free, as they are today, to install other Web browsers," elaborated Heiner.

EU officials have proposed a ballot screen system which would tailor the OS to a specific browser of the user's choice when first using the OS. Among the browsers considered as candidates are Mozilla's Firefox, Apple's Safari, Google's Chrome, and Opera.

In order to meet its October 22 Windows 7 global  release date, Microsoft needed to start telling OEMs this week exactly what to expect in Windows 7, so they can begin the software engineering work necessary to have their Windows 7 PCs available in stores on  that date. That includes the ballot screen system if OEMs choose to adopt it, as well as legal, financial, and technical negotiations on including the browsers from the various third parties.

Microsoft is moving forward with a collaborative tone: "We will continue to discuss browser issues and other matters with the Commission.  But even as the Commission processes continue, we know we need to have a clear plan in place to address the “bundling” issue in Europe because, at the end of the day, the obligation to comply with European competition law belongs to Microsoft alone". 



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 6:29:48 AM , Rating: 5
I really do wish my country would pull out of the E.U.

They are nothing but an embarassment and absolute detriment to our society.

When they're not busy squandering the billions we pump into it each year, they're off to make life even less convenient for us with their absurd rules. This whole charade about I.E. being one of them.

Well you lose E.U, because when I recieve my copy of Windows 7 (E) I will be installing Internet Explorer, even though I shouldn't have to waste my time doing so because it should be already installed!




RE: Pull out of the E.U
By micha90210 on 6/12/2009 6:33:53 AM , Rating: 4
Where have those 2B$ of fines charged by the European Commission gone to?


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:04:46 AM , Rating: 5
Where has the over 100 billion the UK have paid into the E.U gone to?


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:05:13 AM , Rating: 1
That is 100 billion in the past 10 years. DT really needs an edit button.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By Ammohunt on 6/12/2009 2:44:35 PM , Rating: 2
All the while the NHS coffers go dry. Might want to buy a first aid kit.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By RW on 6/13/2009 11:46:46 AM , Rating: 3
Those from EU commission don't give a fuck about IE or MP bundled in the OS they just come up with these motives to take Microsoft's hard earned cash. After these they will come up with other endless motives so that the cash will flow freely from Microsoft to EU's accounts.

AND IF THEY CAN TAKE MICROSOFT'S CASH --THEY WILL-- AND NOTHING AND NO ONE CA STOP THEM, THAT'S JUST THE THINGS GO HERE IN EUROPE IT'S ALL ABOUT CHARLATANS TAKING MONEY FROM THE HONEST ONES


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By SiN on 6/14/2009 7:07:56 PM , Rating: 3
i thought it was the same with any political group really, regardless.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By Lord 666 on 6/12/2009 6:34:50 AM , Rating: 2
What country were you enslaved to?


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:03:17 AM , Rating: 4
The UK.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By VitalyTheUnknown on 6/12/09, Rating: -1
RE: Pull out of the E.U
By segerstein on 6/12/2009 6:41:40 AM , Rating: 2
EU is a good thing for the economy, but the powers of the EU Commission would have to be trimmed. I also don't buy "ever closer union" B.S.

Telling you what kind of bulbs you can have, what animal products you cannot have (seal) - that's just way too much.

And just don't mention REACH - the cost of compliance is skyrocketing. But the cost of EU's overregulation is being borne by companies and customers worldwide. Pulling out of EU would just give you less say. USSA is not doing much better, as recent federal legislative action has shown :(


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/12/2009 6:45:36 AM , Rating: 3
Is the REACH you speak of the program to help an organizations employers "expand their horizons"? Because the company I work for here in the US just created such a department, and it seems like a complete and utter waste of resources in a tough economy.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By segerstein on 6/12/2009 6:52:11 AM , Rating: 4
No. REACH is "a new European Community Regulation on chemicals and their safe use". It deals with the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemical substances (REACH).

It requires costly reevaluation of tens of thousands of chemical substances and replacement of some with less efficient ones (even though their bad impact of human health has not been proven).


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By Kary on 6/12/2009 11:14:19 AM , Rating: 5
Oh, we call that California in the US
(joking, please don't terminate me)


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:02:53 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
EU is a good thing for the economy

Personally, I wouldn't call over 100 billion euros given to the E.U in the past 10 years and only receiving just over half back is good for the economy.

That's about on average 4 billion a year we have given to the E.U, and what have we received back?
quote:
Telling you what kind of bulbs you can have, what animal products you cannot have (seal)

Exactly that.

quote:
Pulling out of EU would just give you less say.

It would give us more say in our own country.

By the way, I'm from the UK.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By segerstein on 6/12/2009 7:32:22 AM , Rating: 3
€100bn - that's 1% of EU27 GDP. EU budget is capped at that and I don't think that's the issue. It's not an awful lot of money.

EU has three pillars, I support only European Economic Community - the common market - and EMU (€).

The ease of trade within the EU block is commendable, but overregulation and powers of the Commission have to be trimmed.

I'm from .si and we are also net payers to the EU budget. What would EU do without French farmers and their efficiency??? EU Commission also wants to shape the pricing for out toll motorways.

But pulling out of EU - you'd still have to comply with REACH and other monstrosities, if you wanted to sell in the EU: you'd just have no say in shaping those policies. The government is fighting it, but to get at least a bit of our money back, the Commission has to be pleased with out 'compliance'.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:45:24 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
€100bn - that's 1% of EU27 GDP. EU budget is capped at that and I don't think that's the issue. It's not an awful lot of money.

That's not the point. We're the second highest payer in the E.U, only behind that of Germany.

That 100bn could go to improving conditions in our own country. Add that extra 100bn every 10 years to our NHS. I'm sure the quality of healthcare would improve.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By SiN on 6/14/2009 7:15:17 PM , Rating: 3
The money spent in the UK is pissed up a wall anyway, so even if you had that money back and invested in the country, you wouldn't see any benefit from it. 60% of the NHS is management and top earners.

It would be good to have the cash but it gets wasted in the most useless way possible anyhow.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By afkrotch on 6/17/2009 9:09:53 AM , Rating: 2
Ya. It's way better to spend that 100 Bil on new policies. Like labeling light bulbs with lumens or labeling food products with the location they are coming from.

The hell do I care where my food comes from? So long as it's edible and won't give me food poisoning, I don't care.

Maybe they'll take 50 bil and go find out whether Coke or Pepsi tastes better. Then make a new policy about it.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By mikefarinha on 6/12/2009 10:49:07 AM , Rating: 4
As an American I respect people that have pride in their own country. Keep fighting the good fight themaster08.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By Denigrate on 6/12/2009 9:00:27 AM , Rating: 2
USSA = United Socialist States of America? Not quite yet, but all that Change we were promised by the "Hope" monger in the White House will get us there soon enough.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By inigoml on 6/12/2009 7:34:18 AM , Rating: 3
UK out of UE? In fact UK has always been out of UE...or almost out of. :)

Anyway, with Pound in the hells, you will have no option but enter into Monetary Union and deal with Euro. You will start counting in decimal system and, who knows, use right lane instead of left one (this is a joke, of course) ;D

Saludos desde España.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:50:38 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
use right lane instead of left one (this is a joke, of course) ;D

Hey, it's everyone else who drives on the wrong side of the road ;)


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By Hakuryu on 6/12/2009 3:31:05 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder if they have done any studies asking end-users if they would prefer IE to come with Windows? I know I would if I lived in the EU, and it sounds like you would also.

I can understand MS not wanting to bundle all it's competitors product onto the new Windows disk. Dumb end-users abound and I can imagine the headache MS might receive from users who think because all these browsers are on the disk, that MS should support them. What happens when (for example) Opera ships on the disk with a critical vulnerability that spreads a worm like mad... who are the customers going to blame? - Opera or the company's disk they got it off of?


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By thartist on 6/12/2009 3:37:52 PM , Rating: 2
there are so many, so bizarre opinions here (and in any other site too)...

Let's separate the points and make them clearer:

1) First: one thing is the EU bullying, but besides that, MS has taken a decidedly bad decision for themselves. How are the average mamma and joe gonna browse the internet or get a browser after this when they get Windows 7? Oh gosh... problems ahead!

2) Now, the right way to think this matter is: "what would the 'most adequate' or 'less damaging' solution be?" This is a matter where probably no solution would be a perfect %100 convenient one that would please everyone. So, again, the point is MAKING THE USER CONSCIOUS OF CHOICE and GIVING HIM THE POSSIBILITY OF CHOICE. After choosing, he can disable IE if he likes.

-Couldn't MS then make a simple disclaimer telling the user that he is not enclosed to IE and free to choose among other alternatives if he decides he is not happy with IE?-

That's the point of it. Letting the user know that he's not enclosed to IE and he can choose any other thing if he pleases. This would also save MS from to getting in the muddy waters of making themselves a decision for what alteratives the user can get. It's simply up to the user to get into that matter if he minds to.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By segerstein on 6/13/2009 10:48:56 AM , Rating: 3
Mamma will buy a computer from OEM preinstalled with Windows. OEMs will take care that IE and/or other browser will be installed on the system.

But if someone can install Windows on their own, so can he or she install a web browser ;-)


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By crystal clear on 6/13/2009 7:38:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Couldn't MS then make a simple disclaimer telling the user that he is not enclosed to IE and free to choose among other alternatives if he decides he is not happy with IE?-


Its NOT the USERS/BUYERS who are complaining to the E.U. but the competition to I.E. that does the complaining to the E.U.

The E.U. in the name of protecting buyers/users & their rights actually protects the competitiors.

This applies to M.S. & INTEL.

quote:
That's the point of it. Letting the user know that he's not enclosed to IE and he can choose any other thing if he pleases. This would also save MS from to getting in the muddy waters of making themselves a decision for what alteratives the user can get. It's simply up to the user to get into that matter if he minds to.


The users know very well whats good for them & choose/use the browser of their choice.

Its the OEMs/retailers selling OEMs products etc who sell 95% of the computers in the E.U. are to be held responsible/accountable for what they give to their buyers/clients-let it be media players or browsers or anything else.

When I buy a computer/s from an OEM or retailers "I do not buy from M.S. rather I buy from the retailers & its the retailers responsibility to provide me the choices,in this case browsers".


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By S3anister on 6/12/2009 5:51:58 PM , Rating: 3
I just don't understand why the EU believes it needs to step into every business move that Microsoft makes. WHY would anyone take out an operating system's web browser? It's a vital part of any computer now!

To me, it looks like the EU is just looking for money.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By aatnet on 6/13/2009 5:42:49 AM , Rating: 1
yes please do pull out of the E.U. You'll do the rest of us a favor. It is nations like yours that exhibit anti-european behavior that keep the E.U. back


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By themaster08 on 6/13/2009 7:46:25 AM , Rating: 2
The E.U. aren't held back from doing anything. They are already causing disruption in other parts of the world, whilst at the same time making life even more rule-bound for the rest of us, who are reluctantly members of this whole charade.

Funny, because here in the U.K the standpoint is that it is the E.U holding us back.


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By ICE1966 on 6/13/2009 11:17:15 AM , Rating: 3
I agree with you on most points. the EU is a joke and always will be. They are hunting for money and power any place they can find it. the windows operating system belongs to Microsoft, plain and simple. If they want thier browser installed , then why is it of concern to the EU. The OS does not belong to them. It boils down to nothing more tham Mozilla and opera whining about why thier browser is not more readily used than IE. thats simple, you do not own the windows OS, so get over yourself. I live in america, and I wish we would stop sending so much money over there to help many of the idiots that run the EU. yes, we do send tons of money over there, in fact we have ever since the adoption of the Federal Reserve act of 1913. we send it through the United Nations{ which is a joke itself}


RE: Pull out of the E.U
By afkrotch on 6/17/2009 8:50:48 AM , Rating: 2
Fck the EU. MS is already taking IE out, why the hell should it bundle in other companie's browsers and possibly end up with hundreds of thousands of support calls about a product that isn't even their's.

I say don't even provide the IE install files on the disc. Also make it so OEMs cannot pre-install IE on the OS or provide a disc with the install files available. Make them have to use a different computer just to get the files.


Am I missing something?
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/12/2009 6:06:50 AM , Rating: 5
Why is it Microsoft takes so much heat for including FREE software with their OS!? What about Apple, I'd say they are way more monopolistic with their products than Microsoft, yet they aren't getting pounded at every turn by the EU.

Just because they make a good product, and take a majority of the market share they must endure all this crap.




RE: Am I missing something?
By TSS on 6/12/2009 6:32:35 AM , Rating: 5
the EU commission is just out of control.

they used to have a function, and have fined cartels properly in the past, which is what they are ment to do. but nowerdays it's just another way to make money, at the expense of microsoft and probably others in the future.


RE: Am I missing something?
By Marc G on 6/12/2009 7:26:19 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
the EU commission is just out of control.

That's what happens when you put a bunch of morons together ... sigh :(

Now we have an N version without Media Player, an E version without Internet Explorer... what's next?? Will they have to remove notepad/wordpad, because well there are third party text editors out there and bundling wordpad with Windows would be anti-competetive....

I'm just sick of this stupidity. Windows E will have no internet browser at all, so how to download a browser? Yeah, we can use FTP but try to explain that to someone just starting to work with computers.

Thanks to the freaking EU we are getting backwards in time! Brilliant, just brilliant!


RE: Am I missing something?
By Oregonian2 on 6/12/2009 8:46:49 AM , Rating: 2
If it were a market where all IE's competitors were ones that costed money it might make sense, but AFAIK there is only ONE that charges anything (opera). The by far and away second most popular (and best browser system) is Firefox that's not only free, but I think open source.

Mind you, I think it's a good thing that Windows 7 has IE removable, I think that's the biggie thing. I've still got IE on XP, it not being removable, and I'm sure programs are using it.


RE: Am I missing something?
By Farva on 6/12/2009 4:16:25 PM , Rating: 2
Like Intel?

Or maybe McDonalds on the grounds that their "Super Size" is .05 USD cheaper than other "Super Size" deals and therefore they are giving a nickels worth of fries free with every Super Size... A stretch I know but it seems to me that they have gotten enough free money out of Microsoft so just why not go after some other multinational organization?


RE: Am I missing something?
By Lord 666 on 6/12/2009 6:33:19 AM , Rating: 2
Read a history book with respect to Microsoft young padawan.

Anyway, technology leaders in the EU favor a LAMP based approach due to the "free" aspect. Yet you are correct in questioning why free from a global company is bad.


RE: Am I missing something?
By Coltch on 6/12/2009 6:33:49 AM , Rating: 2
The EU MEP's are a bunch of corrupt idiots that live in a different reality to everyone else.

This new 'E' version will sell about as much as the previous 'N' version = it won't as no-one will want it!.

When I spend the large amount of ££££'s that MS charge for the OS I want it to include everything - Vista should have cost me nearly $600 (£300 at the time).

As for the EU only going after Microsoft - well it's all about who's got the most $$$$.


RE: Am I missing something?
By William Gaatjes on 6/12/2009 3:24:18 PM , Rating: 2
I want an NEO version. No mediaplayer, No IE, No outlook, No messenger, No MSN. No obscene DRM. No crappy Drwatson. I will be waiting in line for that version.


RE: Am I missing something?
By TomZ on 6/12/2009 3:46:37 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds like you should be running DOS. :o)

Seriously, though, I don't think that much market exists for stripped-down Windows. For example, when Microsoft offered Windows in the EU without Media Player, practically nobody bought it.

And besides, many of the items you mention - such as Messenger, MSN, Outlook, are not part of the newer versions of Windows. They are separate downloads.


RE: Am I missing something?
By William Gaatjes on 6/12/2009 6:35:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Seriously, though, I don't think that much market exists for stripped-down Windows. For example, when Microsoft offered Windows in the EU without Media Player, practically nobody bought it.


It was not offered within normal channels. I found some oem who delivered it but had to buy a complete pc with it. Microsoft is not making any efforts to sell those N versions at the time. Afcourse this is logical. Microsoft wants there media standards as THE standards.

quote:
And besides, many of the items you mention - such as Messenger, MSN, Outlook, are not part of the newer versions of Windows. They are separate downloads.


That would be a start but i doubt that it is true.


RE: Am I missing something?
By just4U on 6/12/2009 10:16:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That would be a start but i doubt that it is true.


You don't get any messaging program or email abilities for Windows 7. They are part of the live essentials suite which is a seperate download. Anyone familiar with the BETA/RC can confirm this if you doubt it.

The Live Essential's software includes a movie maker, email, messenger, writer, and a few other things and you choose what you'd like to install out of all of it.

http://download.live.com/


RE: Am I missing something?
By crystal clear on 6/13/2009 7:45:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It was not offered within normal channels. I found some oem who delivered it but had to buy a complete pc with it. Microsoft is not making any efforts to sell those N versions at the time. Afcourse this is logical. Microsoft wants there media standards as THE standards


Read this to be informed about the facts-

FACT SHEET: Windows XP N Sales
April 2006

Sales figures indicate that there has been virtually no
demand from PC manufacturers, retailers and consumers
for Windows XP N, the version of Windows XP that does not
include multimedia functionality provided by Windows
Media Player technologies:

• XP N sales represent 0.005 percent (1/20,000th of one
percent) of overall XP sales in Europe.
• No PC manufacturers have ordered or preinstalled
Windows XP N on PCs.
• Only 1,787 copies of Windows XP N have been sold to
retailers and distributors in Europe.
• The number of copies actually purchased by consumers
is not tracked; many may still be sitting on store shelves.
The French retailer FNAC, the single largest retailer to
order XP N representing 46% of the orders, has stated
that it sees no consumer demand for Windows XP N.
• By comparison, 35.5 million copies of the fully functional
version of Windows XP were sold in Europe during the
same nine-month period.
No demand by PC manufacturers
Original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) stated clearly that they were not interested in
installing and selling computers with a less than fully function version of Windows XP:
• “I cannot foresee circumstances under which OEMs would choose to market PCs using a
version of Windows without Windows Media Player,” said Carl Everett, former senior vice
president of Dell Computer Corporation's Personal Systems Group.
• “It would not make business sense to market a PC on the basis that it did not include
Windows Media Player,” said Rod Keller, former executive vice president, Toshiba America
Information Systems’ Computer Systems Group.
Number of media players installed increases
The demand for enhanced multimedia functionality has actually led computer
manufacturers to steadily increase the number of media players they pre-install on personal
computers shipped in Europe:
• In 2004, PC manufacturers preinstalled an average of 1.4 media players in addition to
Windows Media Player on PCs sold in Europe.
• In 2006, that number had more than doubled – PC manufacturers now preinstall an
average of 3.2 media players in addition to Windows Media Player on PCs sold in Europe.
Search Microsoft.com
FACT SHEET: Windows XP N Sales: April 2006 http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/european/...
1


RE: Am I missing something?
By crystal clear on 6/13/2009 7:47:45 PM , Rating: 2
RE: Am I missing something?
By William Gaatjes on 6/14/2009 3:46:44 AM , Rating: 2
Ha, amusing.

When microsoft comes with facts i have a tendency to doubt.
Assuming those numbers are correct, the circumstances those numbers are formed are just as important. The devil is in the details.

On a sidenote :
How is the new 3d controller of microsoft doing for the xbox360 ? You know, microsofts response to the wii controller. I bet it will be another longhorn...


RE: Am I missing something?
By monomer on 6/12/2009 10:49:49 AM , Rating: 4
The punchline to this entire joke is that the EU is now complaining about the lack of a browser, since they won't be able to access the web.

So they complain that Windows comes with IE, now they complain that it doesn't. Do they really expect for windows to come bundled with competitor's software?


RE: Am I missing something?
By jtesoro on 6/13/2009 2:23:04 AM , Rating: 2
Who knows? Maybe next time they'll require Windows to ship with Linux.


RE: Am I missing something?
By icanhascpu on 6/12/2009 3:27:49 PM , Rating: 1
Why do people keep comparing MS/Intel to Apple? Apple is 10% of the CPU market. Thats a ridiculous comparison and just shows an uneeded dislike of a company that has nothing to do with any of this.

Two wrongs dont make a right. MS should be allowed to include IE, for fucks sake if they dont how am I going to download FF?!


RE: Am I missing something?
By afkrotch on 6/17/2009 9:26:00 AM , Rating: 2
It's pretty simple. MS makes an OS. Apple also makes an OS. So does Linux. Hence why ppl compare.

Then you have the usually ppl come in and say, Apple sells a platform, not an OS.

Then others will say, that Linux allows you to select whatever browser you want to install.

That's usually the way it goes. Think this is the first time I've see someone say anything about Apple's marketshare or talk about other's dislikes of Apple when it comes to browser talk.


Call me crazy...
By jadeskye on 6/12/2009 6:43:55 AM , Rating: 2
As a UK resident, if i bought windows 7 when it comes out, how on earth do i access the internet? i need IE to download firefox.




RE: Call me crazy...
By Maximilian on 6/12/2009 6:53:18 AM , Rating: 2
I was just thinking the exact same thing... i would have to download FF on somone elses laptop and bring it to mine on a USB drive, or maybe use the browser thats built into steam...

Im from the UK as well and i think this is a really stupid move by the EU.


RE: Call me crazy...
By inigoml on 6/12/2009 7:29:55 AM , Rating: 2
I was thinking the same. Fortunately, I run Ubuntu. :-)
Anyway, I'm sure Microsoft won't ship Windows 7 without IE. It will be disabled, but not removed since it's part of the operating system and many Windows components rely on IE objects.
For example, when you remove MSN Browser from XP, you don't remove anything but icons.
So, Microsoft will let you an screen for "Install IE8" that will be in fact a "shorcut recreator process" or it will be in Windows Update.


RE: Call me crazy...
By myhipsi on 6/12/2009 10:06:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Given the pending legal proceeding, we’ve decided that instead of including Internet Explorer in Windows 7 in Europe, we will offer it separately and on an easy-to-install basis to both computer manufacturers and users.


It looks like MS will probably have something run on first install that will allow you to add a browser of your choice.

quote:
Anyway, I'm sure Microsoft won't ship Windows 7 without IE. It will be disabled, but not removed since it's part of the operating system and many Windows components rely on IE objects.


Actually, IE is decoupled from the Windows 7 OS, so you can, in fact, uninstall it completely. HTML capabilities are still intact, but it completely removes the browser, unlike with XP or Vista.


RE: Call me crazy...
By just4U on 6/12/2009 10:22:21 PM , Rating: 2
My question would be who decides what browser should be on there for a option. Having just the popular ones would be unfair to the lesser known browsers.. Just don't really make much sense. Someone out there is always going to be crying UNFAIR!!! UNFAIR!!!


RE: Call me crazy...
By afkrotch on 6/17/2009 9:32:08 AM , Rating: 1
It's pretty simple. Only have IE as an option. Those who want to use something else can either A) go fuck themselves or B) figure out how the hell to get their own browser on there.

It's not Microsoft's job to provide a competitor's product. I'm all for the option of having no option though.


RE: Call me crazy...
By Oregonian2 on 6/12/2009 8:49:59 AM , Rating: 2
Supposed to be available on CD. :-)

Sneakernet may be the most popular method though.


RE: Call me crazy...
By Screwballl on 6/12/2009 9:50:30 AM , Rating: 2
Knowing Microsoft, they will have a area in Windows Update that will ask you if you want to install IE, WM (Windows Mail aka Outlook Express), WMP and other MS only software... but you can bet your rear that they will not ask WHICH browser you want to install.


RE: Call me crazy...
By nixoofta on 6/12/2009 2:03:37 PM , Rating: 2
...and, which browser did you use to get to windows update?


RE: Call me crazy...
By TomZ on 6/12/2009 2:59:48 PM , Rating: 2
In Windows Vista and Windows 7, the update functionality doesn't use a browser. It's fully integrated into the OS.


RE: Call me crazy...
By nixoofta on 6/14/2009 5:07:52 PM , Rating: 2
"Oh, that's very different,...Never mind."

~Emily Litella


RE: Call me crazy...
By Aloonatic on 6/12/2009 11:02:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
EU officials have proposed a ballot screen system which would tailor the OS to a specific browser of the user's choice when first using the OS. Among the browsers considered as candidates are Mozilla's Firefox, Apple's Safari, Google's Chrome, and Opera.
I'm assuming that it's a windows update style screen where you have a list of available products that you can download off of the internet. You check the boxes for the browser(s) that you want to install and windows downloads them, installs them and away you go. If that isn't what a "ballot screen system" is, then it's what they should and quite easily could do.There's no need for a browser, and it's simple enough that anyone can do it.


RE: Call me crazy...
By afkrotch on 6/17/2009 9:45:41 AM , Rating: 2
"There's no need for a browser, and it's simple enough that anyone can do it."

Might want to reevaluate that. You'd be amazed at how stupid ppl are.


RE: Call me crazy...
By Disorganise on 6/12/2009 8:11:43 PM , Rating: 2
You either buy a complete machine from a store that has a browser installed under the OEM allowance, or if you're upgrading an existing machine, you download a browser FIRST before you upgrade. Doesnt seem that hard to me.

This entire forum seems have erupted into a 'woe is me, how will my gran ever be able to download a browser without a browser bein installed?'. Simple fact is, folk who don't 'know computers' will buy full machines from manufacturers - these will have a browser on some description installed (along with all the other crap they stick there), OR come with a couple of CD's for you to install your choice of browser.
Those that 'know computers' will download a browser before upgrading, have a 2nd machine from which to download, or be savvy wnough to use ftp.

Quit whining and look at the business opportunity of selling browser CD's to the public when Win7 is released :)


RE: Call me crazy...
By Penti on 6/14/2009 8:54:13 PM , Rating: 2
The OEM will have IE and WMP installed any how like always, I don't particularly like MS approach but it's silly what EU does as it won't help, there's a good thought behind it that consumers and OEMs should be able to choose which standard browser and media player you like to have. But it won't work in practice. And you probably have to install IE from windows update in order to download firefox/safari/chrome/opera :)


The N versions dont really exist.
By jabber on 6/12/2009 6:38:08 AM , Rating: 1
Guys, thing to remember is that no one (certainly domestic and small business) ever gets to see these N versions.

We've had them before but they only ever (if ever) end up in Govt type installations.

All MS is doing is offering a IE8 free version if anyone specifically requests it. Hardly anyone will though. Its just compliance.

Not a biggie for the consumer...we dont really care.




RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/12/2009 6:42:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
All MS is doing is offering a IE8 free version if anyone specifically requests it. Hardly anyone will though. Its just compliance.


I think it is stupid to ship an OS without a web browser, lets face it most people are going to use IE, because that's what they are used to. All this regulation is doing is gumming up the works.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By nosfe on 6/12/2009 6:55:33 AM , Rating: 2
i think it's brilliant, maybe this way the EC will realize the error of their ways


By redbone75 on 6/12/2009 8:50:53 AM , Rating: 3
The EU misses their free America Online cd's...


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By Digimonkey on 6/12/2009 8:53:47 AM , Rating: 2
What error? They are a billion dollars richer. It will be interesting to see what comes of the talks with Microsoft and the EU about future bundling practices.

Microsoft is on the defensive so we'll finally get to see exactly how fairly the EU will play.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By mcnabney on 6/12/2009 12:05:16 PM , Rating: 2
When will the US government/courts decide to fine European and Asian car manufactures? It makes as much sense.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By William Gaatjes on 6/12/2009 3:26:54 PM , Rating: 2
There is no monopoly with respect to car makers. If microsoft would have the balls to only open up the win32 api...


By afkrotch on 6/17/2009 9:49:12 AM , Rating: 2
They can just raise the tax for them. Allowing the price of the cars to come up and pump money into the government. You can always find ways to make money. Ask the EU all about it.


By jabber on 6/12/2009 7:33:27 AM , Rating: 1
It doesnt matter as it wont affect anyone.

If anyone does use this it will be big enterprise rollouts that will put whatever browser they want to use into the build and then push it out to the PCs.

It isnt something to get annoyed about.

We the domestic EU customers will have IE installed just as you will.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By Oregonian2 on 6/12/2009 8:48:57 AM , Rating: 3
My understanding is that the IE8-free version of Windows 7 for Europe is the ONLY version to be sold there, not an optional version not really sold much.

If machines sold w/OS include IE8 it will have been put there by the OEM, not Microsoft.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By jabber on 6/12/2009 10:02:09 AM , Rating: 2
We have had 'N' versions before in Europe for XP etc.

They are just another SKU. Dont know why anyone would be downgrading me stating that but there you go.

Maybe it takes the wind out of their rant sails?

This is nothing new people.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By Oregonian2 on 6/12/2009 4:44:30 PM , Rating: 2
Difference is that previously there were SKU's for BOTH the "with" and "without" versions. For Windows 7 (in Europe) there will be ONLY the "without" SKU available from Microsoft. That part is new.


RE: The N versions dont really exist.
By Penti on 6/14/2009 9:05:37 PM , Rating: 2
Well the OEM discs will still have IE. It's just that they can put another browser there realistically now. But that won't happen. As regard to retail nobody buys it any way. They will just warez the US version. Some might _uninstall_ ie though.


Rediculous...
By ExarKun333 on 6/12/2009 9:06:28 AM , Rating: 2
Another reason the EU is utterly disconnected from reality...I for one, don't use IE very much, but I don't believe it should be anyone's business what MS included with their software. It is one thing to say it cannot be "embedded", but quite another to say it cannot be included at all. Just silly and petty IMHO.




RE: Rediculous...
By fiskov on 6/12/2009 9:37:59 AM , Rating: 3
God sake i REALLY wish the UK would get the the heck out the EU, its nothing but a joke.
I format, at minimum once a month.. I'm not going through the hassle of getting IE everytime i do this.

I'm sorry England (EU) looks like you just lost my money.
I think i'll just buy it from the US and get it.. cheaper, faster and WITH IE!


RE: Rediculous...
By kilkennycat on 6/12/09, Rating: 0
RE: Rediculous...
By omnicronx on 6/12/2009 11:03:25 AM , Rating: 2
Or maybe hes just an E-Germaphobe ;)


RE: Rediculous...
By Disorganise on 6/12/2009 8:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
"I format, at minimum once a month.. I'm not going through the hassle of getting IE everytime i do this."

Strange practice re-formatting so often, but each to his own.

Do you not own a CD durner or USB stick? Download a browser and burn to CD/USB before you install Windows7 or reformat. Install the OS, stickmin your CD/USB and install browser. yip - real hassle that one...


No IE or MSPlayer that is ridiculous
By philuptagus on 6/12/2009 8:15:16 AM , Rating: 2
I feel I need to post this comment, even though I’m from the U.S.
It is ridiculous to ask (tell) Microsoft not to include IE and/or Win Media Player with their new OS. Someone commented on a previous post that Netscape didn’t make it because Microsoft includes IE in their OS by default. Well, Firefox is a third party browser that currently holds the record for most downloads and is used by millions on many different OSs, including Win2k, XP, Vista, and soon OS7. You can’t blame Netscape’s demise on IE, it was (is) a mediocre browser that did (does) not offer anything better than the OSs default.
And these third party companies (Opera) complaining about Microsoft including IE as default browser, well why doesn’t Opera (and the others) come out with their own OS? Win2k, XP, Vista and OS7 are Microsoft’s creation and they should have the right to bundle their applications with it. If you don’t like their application, then don’t use it.




RE: No IE or MSPlayer that is ridiculous
By Oregonian2 on 6/12/2009 8:54:39 AM , Rating: 2
I, a long time Netscape user and current Firefox user disagree about Netscape.

I found that Netscape was to it's time what Firefox is to the current time. Also they both basically came out of the same organization (or ones that derived from each other).

Netscape's suite "broke up" with Firefox being the next-generation browser portion and Thunderbird became the Netscape email portion's replacement (and what I use for email).


RE: No IE or MSPlayer that is ridiculous
By philuptagus on 6/12/2009 9:24:53 AM , Rating: 2
Not meaning to step on Netscape users toes, b/c I too was a Netscaper (once upon a time). Back then, it was a great browser, but if one does not keep up with the times, it will quickley become mediocre (outdated). I toggle between Firefox, IE8 (not bad!!) and sometimes Chrome for browsers and Google (iGoogle, Gmail, Gcalendar, Getc.) for pretty much everything else.


By Oregonian2 on 6/12/2009 4:51:01 PM , Rating: 2
I "toggle" to IE (when necessary) in the sense that I can make a Firefox tab use the IE engine by clicking a little icon in the lower right corner (it's a firefox plugin that allows doing so, natch).

:-)


EU politicians.
By excelsium on 6/12/2009 8:21:11 AM , Rating: 2
So they are bunch of low-life thieves, a stain on humanity.




RE: EU politicians.
By redbone75 on 6/12/2009 9:10:46 AM , Rating: 5
Aren't all politicians a bunch of low-life thieves and stains upon humanity?


I guess EU didn't get the memo
By corduroygt on 6/12/2009 8:50:13 AM , Rating: 1
Govermnents should be as small and powerless as possible.
Noone wants to live in russia or china, but millions come to the US.




RE: I guess EU didn't get the memo
By Bateluer on 6/12/2009 10:06:44 AM , Rating: 2
I would agree, but there are large number of people that keep voting the US government more and more and more control over their daily lives.


RE: I guess EU didn't get the memo
By Penti on 6/14/2009 9:24:30 PM , Rating: 2
EU isn't a government at all it's a supranational and intergovernment organization with a none elected commission who's the only ones who can propose EC laws. It's not meant to be a federal republic or federation and isn't meant to be democratic. It's the member states who's meant to have working democracies and they do.


By Owik2008 on 6/12/2009 8:54:04 AM , Rating: 5
I don't think the EU considers, among things, the actual users of the systems they take to court. Most users are scared of computers, once they learn how to do something, they never change and the slightest alteration in GUI or software de-rails their computer usage capabilities creating endless hassles for IT and support staff.

I have had the pleasure of supporting very intelligent computer users who believe the internet is a little blue "e". I had to go so far at my other company as to change the Fire Fox icon to the "e" just so the users could find the "internet"!! Then once I had taken the trouble to do this no one noticed the browser was any different. They continued to surf the web as though nothing had changed.

The only people this problem affects are those who have to support and help the masses.




MS should:
By Tegrat on 6/12/2009 10:28:31 AM , Rating: 4
Remove everything from the OS for EU versions but leave the links to them.
Eg. when a user clicks on Internet Explorer, MSPaint, WordPad etc., they will get a message box with the Phone number and/or email address of the EU to file a nice little complaint.

FFS EU!

Hypocritically isolate MS when there are far worse proprietists!




Idiots Dont deserve MY money
By Spectator on 6/13/2009 3:44:33 PM , Rating: 2
If EU fookwits want to make a point.

They will soon learn that individuals(not sheep) can make a point of thier own.

We can just purchase/DL a non EU copy and just give all the money's to the US directly.

Lets see how NO moneys/Taxes from windows being purchased in the EU makes them feel sooo superior, for telling me what I cant have for FREE when I buy something..

Yes im from the UK.




RE: Idiots Dont deserve MY money
By Spectator on 6/13/2009 4:24:01 PM , Rating: 2
Logically it should be............

I bought this car. And it only came with X brand Tyres.

That sht is all wrong I want a choice of x/y/z tyres or its just not fair.

(1)Ring..Ring.. Hi is that Super EU man..
(2)Da.. I mean "Yes"
(1)Hi super EU man, I have an issue "PLEASE CAN YOU HELP ME?"
(2) We are here to help "If you live and more importantly pay taxes"
(1) yes I live in Eu and Pay taxes "quietly thinks to himself rediculous taxes")
(1) I recently checked into an EU Hilton... Sob
(2) Yes EU man is listening sorry Person(Politically correct and all)
(1) My EU freedom of choice was violated. Cry/Sob.
(2) Dont be upset we will chase and punish ANYONE who would violate your freedom of choice (My lovely tax payer)
(1)ok. then, that nasty Hilton did...
(1)gave me only one type of Toilet paper, and I think that is not fair. As so many other copmpanies can provide the paper I take for Granted.
(2) Hmmm...

same logic applies.. If you prohibit what is expected as free, then you are naturally bound to evaluate every other occurance..

Get a Grip and stop being Pedantic.. It really does make me sad. FOOOOOOOOKWIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTSSSSSSS(EU)


IE
By frozentundra123456 on 6/12/2009 7:08:29 PM , Rating: 3
This is absurd. How can making Win 7 less efficient(by leaving out internet explorer) benefit the consumer. If internet explorer blocked other browsers, then that would be a monopoly. If you dont want to use IE, just download Firefox or Opera or Google Chrome.

Of all the things that microsoft has done, this seems like an extremely ridiculuous thing to attack them for.




gee...
By MadMan007 on 6/12/2009 10:05:23 AM , Rating: 2
<q>OEMs can choose to add any browser they want to their Windows 7 machines, including Internet Explorer, so European consumers who are purchasing new PCs will be still be able to access the Internet. Consumers will also be able to add any web browser to their PCs, to supplement or replace the browsers preinstalled by their computer manufacturer.</q>

Gee, you mean it will work EXACTLY LIKE IT DOES NOW? Uninstalling IE or unintegrating it from the OS is not a big deal...does it really matter if the file browser underpinnings are the same as IE?




European Union...
By nixoofta on 6/12/2009 2:10:33 PM , Rating: 2
...the Homeowners Association of Western Europe,....without all the niceties.




By rmlarsen on 6/12/2009 8:09:06 PM , Rating: 2
I enjoy a good Microsoft or IE bashing as well as the next guy, but this is just absurd. The EU might as well forbid car companies to sell cars with tires. A web browser is a vital part of any modern operating system, and if you care enough you can simply install a different one.




Crazy
By pamplinas on 6/13/2009 1:04:24 AM , Rating: 2
This is just crazy. Why dont fire fox, opera, google chrome, ect pay microsoft to have their browsers on windows as an option then, I mean is not fair that microsoft cannot bundle their product inside their own product. Retarded!!!!




free antivirus
By Zensen on 6/13/2009 11:14:04 AM , Rating: 2
can't wait for them to sue them over the free antivirus that could be included with windows 7.




Being Microsoft
By Holly on 6/13/2009 3:58:06 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly, if I were Microsoft I would be damn close to tell EU they can blow me and stop distribution of Windows 7 to EU.

That said, I sadly am member of EU...




I don't think OEM's will install IE
By zolo111 on 6/14/2009 10:38:39 AM , Rating: 2
OEM's will get fined too I think if they'll install IE only lmao




Support-lifecycle nightmares
By mechBgon on 6/14/2009 3:43:02 PM , Rating: 2
When Microsoft released Win2000, it came with IE 5.01. They will continue to provide security updates for IE 5.01 until Win2000's support lifecycle expires (late 2011 if I recall correctly). Now imagine if Netscape had gotten their browser bundled with Win2000 back in the day. Support & security updates today? LOL no. Plenty of attack surface, no help fixing it? Gee, thanks.

And that's a problem with bundling a third-party company's browser. The FireFox 2.x family from just 18 months ago has already gone End-Of-Life, for example. It's exploitable and dangerous. From a security standpoint, the third party needs to be ready to support the bundled version of their browser for the entire lifespan of the OS it's bundled with, just like Microsoft supports IE 5.01 because it came with Win2000. Certain third parties are eager to get their browser bundled, but I doubt they're ready to hold up their end of the deal properly.




so
By yacoub on 6/14/2009 4:25:56 PM , Rating: 2
If it doesn't come with IE, how do you get online to download a browser of your choice, use Telnet? lol :)

Such silliness.




Am I missing something?
By peterhm on 6/12/09, Rating: -1
RE: Am I missing something?
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/12/2009 7:17:10 AM , Rating: 2
Yes you are missing something, I already used this title...


RE: Am I missing something?
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 7:18:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If Microsoft were smart they would do the Apple thing and include IE in Windows 7 but not imbed it and allow you to download Firefox etc. and then get rid of IE.

They have already done this with Windows 7. You can uninstall I.E.


RE: Am I missing something?
By peterhm on 6/12/2009 7:22:18 AM , Rating: 2
glad to hear this


RE: Am I missing something?
By peterhm on 6/12/2009 7:44:56 AM , Rating: 2
Tried to download IE 7 and IE8 for my Mac but not available for Mac but Safari is there for Windows. Whats going on ?


RE: Am I missing something?
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/12/2009 7:50:51 AM , Rating: 2
Two words
Double standard


RE: Am I missing something?
By peterhm on 6/12/09, Rating: 0
RE: Am I missing something?
By nuarbnellaffej on 6/12/2009 8:09:08 AM , Rating: 2
It's not Microsoft Jackass, its Apple not allowing IE for Macintosh!


RE: Am I missing something?
By themaster08 on 6/12/2009 8:09:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
so glad that microsoft are not worried about the Apple platform, so we can go on having a very easy, cool computer experience !!

So cool, that someone can even take control of your computer without even physically touching it!

Now that really is cool!


RE: Am I missing something?
By Aloonatic on 6/12/2009 10:52:40 AM , Rating: 2
Not to mention hygienic.


RE: Am I missing something?
By Aloonatic on 6/12/2009 10:51:02 AM , Rating: 2
Two words on not being able to use ie7,

"dodged bullet"

To be fair, I've not used ie for a while. It used to be god awful, gave ie7 a chance and that was not great, how is ie8?


RE: Am I missing something?
By mattclary on 6/12/2009 9:40:20 AM , Rating: 2
Three words

inconsequential market share


RE: Am I missing something?
By tmouse on 6/12/2009 8:33:42 AM , Rating: 3
IE is not any more "leaky" (whatever that's supposed to mean) than any other browser. Just because @-holes exploit functionality of a program for a nefarious purpose does not make a program "buggy". People seem to forget Netscape's original plan was to eventually charge for browsers. Yes, the convenience of having IE in the OS did mean less people downloaded Netscape, but IE's integration in and of its self was not the only cause of Netscape's downfall, They became very bloated and put ALL sorts of additional crap on your system, which P'D-off a lot of people. Now they had to just to get revenue but that certainly was a major factor. The fact is probably 99% of all net users could give a rats @ss about what browser they use, just as long as it works. This convenience factor (along with apathy about who makes ones browser) is what put IE where it is today. As far as space goes if you really need the 6 megs IE uses than you probably have bigger problems than which browser to use. Since anyone can get any browser they want this whole issue is just a tempest in a tea pot and a total waste of time and money, but when you have an organization who are the police, prosecutors, judge and jury AND their operating budget is directly affected by how much they can soak others for ; you simply cannot expect rational decisions.


RE: Am I missing something?
By Penti on 6/14/2009 9:39:46 PM , Rating: 2
You seem to forget that Netscape released their source code for free and thank god for that. Otherwise there would be no browsers for alternative platforms, it took quiet some time for KHTML/Webkit to came to be. Mozilla/Firefox is a example of an advanced open source software developed without anyone selling any software or support or services. Competition is good in this field. And it isn't just about Windows.


RE: Am I missing something?
By tmouse on 6/15/2009 7:29:49 AM , Rating: 2
Didn't forget that at all, that happened AFTER they realized there was no way they could implement a buy the browser policy, if they had succeeded we would ALL be paying for access to a browser. As you point out there are alternatives easily available, NO ONE is locked into IE so the whole issue is just a money grab.


RE: Am I missing something?
By A554SS1N on 6/12/2009 8:50:36 AM , Rating: 2
I remember years ago when I was at college, we all agreed in our group that Netscape was rubbish (it was our default browser at college) and we all went over to IE instead..... that was around 1999-2001 ish. As far as I can remember, it definately wasn't "far better" otherwise we'd have continued using it.


RE: Am I missing something?
By Kary on 6/12/2009 11:27:37 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
If you have XP or Vista try and get rid of IE, put it in the trash- you can't ! You are not allowed to. So this very leaky browser as regards viruses etc is there for keeps its part of the OS , you can't do anything about it. Now look at Apple you get Safari when you buy it , use Safari to download Firefox, Opera etc then put Safari in the trash and its gone.


So if you install..say..Opera, on an Apple you could uninstall Safari..then..if something happened to Opera (you accidentally delete it, for instance)...you don't have a browser to download a new browser. Microsoft, however, won't let you make such a huge mistake at all.

Ahh, thanks for explaining why Apple will always have such a tiny market share :)
(sorry, it was just to much to resist)


RE: Am I missing something?
By Sir Gallivantus on 6/14/2009 2:14:56 AM , Rating: 2
Easy, you just install Windows, then download IE... no, wait a second...

Glad I'm not a part of that crap.


"Death Is Very Likely The Single Best Invention Of Life" -- Steve Jobs














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki