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Print E-mail del.icio.us 190 comment(s) - last by DRMichael.. on Feb 20 at 6:47 PM

U.S. Senate to telecoms -- I'll scratch your back, if you scratch mine.

Telecoms and many in the federal Executive branch seemed quite content with the increased usage of warrantless phone surveillance, which some people feel violates Americans' legal rights.  The telecoms received large paychecks for every wiretap put in place; Comcast's rate was a modest $1,000 per tap.  Meanwhile, politicians are happy because they were able to extend their surveillance programs as planned.   The program may toss due process out the window, but, in their opinion, that is a necessary loss to deal with today's troubled world.

Then all of a sudden the good times ended, when a few members of Congress demanded telecom's spy records for hearings on the legality of the program.  The phone companies refused, and all of a sudden, their dirty laundry was aired to the public.  The public exposure opened the NSA and telecoms up to legal action from civil liberties groups and citizens.  Sure enough, the Electronic Frontier Foundation filed for a class action lawsuit for the warrantless eavesdropping practices.  Such a lawsuit could cost telecoms and the U.S. government millions of dollars -- enough to rain on any wiretapper's parade. 

Facing mounting political pressure from the Executive Branch, a largely Republican backed coalition in the U.S. Senate formulated and passed a "spy bill" which would grant the telecoms who cooperated with warrantless snooping programs retroactive immunity from lawsuits.   The bill would trash the EFF's suit and 40 other pending lawsuits against Verizon Communications, Sprint Nextel, and AT&T, which accuse the telecoms of violating citizen rights.   The bill replaces a temporary spy law, which was going to expire this week.

The bill's big struggle will be passing in a Democratic-led House, which has shown strong opposition to the bill.  The bill's backers in the Senate claim the bill will also add legal protection of privacy rights for law-abiding Americans swept up in terror hunts.  However such measures would likely be carried out confidentially, raising questions of how to measure their success or maintain accountability.  Sen. Kit Bond, a Missouri Republican and a chief sponsor of the bill, feels that those issues are a moot point and the important thing is that the bill passed.  He expressed frustration with the Democratic resistance, stating, "I don't know what they (House Democrats) are going to do -- I hope they pass it."

If the bill fails in the House, the temporary law will expire on Sunday.  The House would likely be willing to pass another extension of the current law extending the surveillance program, but still leaving the issue open to debate and telecoms open to legal trouble.  Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky also was vexed with the House Democrats' lack of compliance, stating, "We do not need yet another extension, yet another delay. We need to focus on getting our work done."

Interestingly, Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman John Rockefeller of West Virginia, a Senate Democrat broke ranks with many of his party members and endorsed the bill.  He however did also voice seemingly contradictory criticism that President Bush enacted the original bill without Senate approval.  Rockefeller tried with little success to sway other members of his party, stating, "Anger over the president's program should not prevent us from addressing the real problems that the president has created."

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, voted no and blasted the bill, stating, "I believe that the White House and any companies who broke the law must be held accountable."

The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) mandates that the government require approval of a secret FISA court to conduct surveillance programs on suspected foreign agents operating inside the U.S.  Critics argue that Bush's wireless wiretapping program is blatantly illegal and violates FISA.  Bush argues that he has the power to override the FISA.  However, Bush did put the program under FISA supervision in 2007, about 6 years after its inception.
 
The debate about whether telecoms should be granted immunity despite helping to trash due process remains a contentious one.  Some argue that due process is impractical in some situations and flexibility and legal protection needs to be given to entities cooperating with government investigations. 

Meanwhile privacy and civil liberties advocacy groups argue that privacy and free speech are facing unprecedented assaults both online and off.  The conflict leaves U.S. citizens wondering exactly how they feel about the stark realization that their actions and conversations may be monitored.



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This Sucks...
By Gravemind123 on 2/14/2008 10:26:58 AM , Rating: 5
I'm appalled with what the government is doing and what the Telcos did. They broke the law, they should be punished, no matter who told them to break the law, the president himself is not and should never be above the law.

Eroding freedom for some supposed "safety" is not a fair trade. I'd have hoped that the Democrats would finally have done something to save our freedoms, but as always, here's the new boss, same as the old boss.

If the terrorists hate our freedoms, why are we throwing them away to protect ourselves from the terrorists who want to get rid of them? In that sense the terrorists seem to be winning.




RE: This Sucks...
By mdogs444 on 2/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: This Sucks...
By diablofish on 2/14/2008 10:42:30 AM , Rating: 5
As someone who claims to be a conservative, the erosion of your right to due process should be a major concern to you.

"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

- Pastor Martin Niemöller


RE: This Sucks...
By MrBungle123 on 2/14/2008 10:50:22 AM , Rating: 3
the calls being monitored are coming in from foreign countries, so when a cell phone call is made from a satellite phone in some remote location in pakistan to someone here in the US the govt wants to know what is being discussed. domestic to domestic calls are not being monitored. Given the circumstances this seems reasonable to me.


RE: This Sucks...
By diablofish on 2/14/2008 10:58:44 AM , Rating: 2
And you know that how?


RE: This Sucks...
By helloseth on 2/14/2008 11:01:02 AM , Rating: 2
If that is true, then how do you 'feel' about it?


RE: This Sucks...
By Tsuwamono on 2/14/2008 11:16:45 AM , Rating: 2
<Pull out guitar> Do you, Do you feel like i dooo </bad ass guitar solo>


RE: This Sucks...
By NullSubroutine on 2/15/2008 12:44:15 AM , Rating: 2
Those who make silent evolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.


RE: This Sucks...
By Hieyeck on 2/15/2008 8:38:36 AM , Rating: 4
Put down the guitar hero, you are not a rocker.


RE: This Sucks...
By MrBungle123 on 2/14/2008 11:31:06 AM , Rating: 2
From wikipedia.

quote:
Under this program, referred to by the Bush administration as the "terrorist surveillance program",[1] the NSA is authorized by executive order to monitor, without warrants, phone calls, e-mails, text messaging, and other communication involving any party believed by the NSA to be outside the U.S., even if the other end of the communication lies within the U.S.


quote:
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales confirmed the existence of the program, first reported in a December 2005 article[4][5] in The New York Times, on December 19, 2005. He stated that the program authorizes warrantless intercepts where the government "has a reasonable basis to conclude that one party to the communication is a member of al Qaeda, affiliated with al Qaeda, or a member of an organization affiliated with al Qaeda, or working in support of al Qaeda." and that one party to the conversation is "outside of the United States".


RE: This Sucks...
By yawnbox on 2/14/2008 12:31:45 PM , Rating: 2
really? a publicly open and freely editable source in which the CIA has been caught editing many of its articles?


RE: This Sucks...
By helloseth on 2/14/2008 1:08:31 PM , Rating: 2
Well if you had bothered to read you would see that the wikipedia article is quoting the New York Times and includes links to the articles.


RE: This Sucks...
By DRMichael on 2/14/2008 9:22:29 PM , Rating: 2
Please refer to http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/ for a clearer understanding of what your talking about. If more people would do their own research instead of listening to third parties, (i.e. the news media) their would be a lot less ignorance in the world.


RE: This Sucks...
By wrekd on 2/15/2008 8:36:41 PM , Rating: 2
I checked the link and found this:

quote:
Under the Protect America Act, the Attorney General is required to submit for review to the FISA Court the procedures by which the Federal government determines that the authorized acquisitions of foreign intelligence do not constitute electronic surveillance requiring court approval under FISA.


This part is kind of fuzzy. When is the review submitted? After the information has been gathered? Is it a case by case basis and continually submitted or has the procedure already been submitted to cover all future investigations.


RE: This Sucks...
By DRMichael on 2/16/2008 12:04:55 AM , Rating: 3
The Protect America Act has allowed for the electronic surveillance of non-U.S. citizens located outside the United States without the prior approval of the court; the argument being time sensitivity. For this provision in the Protect America Act, the Attorney General is required to submit for review to the FISA Court the procedures (or means) by which the Federal government has determined that the authorized acquisition of foreign intelligence do not constitute electronic surveillance requiring court approval; in other words: the Attorney General must show the procedures by which the Federal government has determined that the person under electronic surveillance is not a U.S. citizen and is located outside the United States.

The bill that passed the Senate on February 12th, but failed to be voted on in the House today, can be seen here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:1:./tem... it is known as the FISA Amendments Act of 2007.

A layman’s overview of the major changes can be viewed here: http://rpc.senate.gov/_files/L43S2248FISA121707ML....

The wording can be a little difficult to grasp (I had to look at it for a moment myself). Hope this clears it up.


RE: This Sucks...
By tdawg on 2/14/2008 11:24:32 AM , Rating: 5
How about those American citizens with family members working and living in foreign countries? Or friends that are in visiting or volunteering in foreign countries? These calls could very well be monitored and if you say the wrong thing, the government could show up at your house. How fun would that be?


RE: This Sucks...
By MrBungle123 on 2/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: This Sucks...
By tdawg on 2/14/2008 11:48:00 AM , Rating: 2
In order for them to know what I'm talking about, they would already have to be listening, right? So my privacies about anything I'm discussing are gone. An innocuous conversation with your best friend about nailing a Princess at a night club in London just became government property.


RE: This Sucks...
By MrBungle123 on 2/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: This Sucks...
By Alexstarfire on 2/14/2008 12:20:58 PM , Rating: 2
There are so many problems with that statement that I don't even know where to start. Who decides if it's reasonable or not, cause it's surely not a judge? Because it won't be a judge it has a much bigger chance of getting abused. Say they wiretap a person under false pretenses. What will happen if they figure out he smuggles drugs into the country? Are they just going to sit back and do nothing? You'd be a fool to think that any of this is a good idea.


RE: This Sucks...
By mcmilljb on 2/14/2008 12:36:10 PM , Rating: 2
Tell that to people in our "secret" prisons. The Senate has been unwilling to sit down and discuss the bill. They want a blank check like President Bush. There are going to be more Democrats in Congress and a Democrat president come 2009 because the Republicans want a blank check. and Americans are tired of cashing it.


RE: This Sucks...
By straycat74 on 2/14/2008 1:24:49 PM , Rating: 5
You've had the democrats controlling congress for a while now, and what has changed besides the cafeteria food?


RE: This Sucks...
By tdawg on 2/14/2008 3:21:47 PM , Rating: 3
While the congress has been no more effective than the previous congress (Steroids in baseball?! "Spygate" in football?! Are these the most pressing issues?!), it's hard to get anything done when Dubya won't sign anything into law. All the blame can't rest with the congress here.


RE: This Sucks...
By sonoran on 2/14/2008 3:44:56 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
You've had the democrats controlling congress for a while now

No, they don't control congress, they control the House - but not the Senate. And even if they controlled both houses of Congress, they don't have a sufficient majority to really be in control, as they cannot override presidential vetos.


RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/14/2008 1:39:05 PM , Rating: 5
Hence the point of "warrantless wiretaps." Usually a judge needs to sign off that the requirements for a wiretap are met. Here nobody does. Nobody is here to check whether or not its legal to wiretap the person. I would have no problem if they just had the balls to ask a judge to sign off (the old way - get a warrant; they could do that before this "spy bill"), but who knows why they don't want judges to review whether or not the requirements for a warrant are met...

Listen to my phone all you want as long as you have "reasonable basis" and as long as someone legally signs off on the evidence you present for that reasonable basis. Is that so hard?


RE: This Sucks...
By encryptkeeper on 2/14/2008 2:25:39 PM , Rating: 5
Usually a judge needs to sign off that the requirements for a wiretap are met. Here nobody does. Nobody is here to check whether or not its legal to wiretap the person.

It's also so that the right hand knows what the left hand is doing. If no wiretap is needed, and the wrong person is eavesdropped on, who's to step up and say, hey we made a mistake and listened in on the wrong person?

Warrants aren't permission slips for a school trip. They're a sign of proof that the state has met probable cause to seize some sort of custody, like property or a person. Also, warrants are proof that evidence has been gathered and that the law enforcement involved isn't just wasting time or on a wild goose chase. The average person might not be affected by this, if they REALLY are only listening on international calls that involve terror suspects (yeah, right) but next the government will claim the right to walk into your house if they suspect everything.


RE: This Sucks...
By encryptkeeper on 2/14/2008 4:12:07 PM , Rating: 2
Damn. I wish we had an edit button for our posts. What I meant to say is "If no WARRANT is needed, and the wrong person is eavesdropped on" yadda yadda yadda. My bad.


RE: This Sucks...
By eye smite on 2/15/2008 2:58:12 AM , Rating: 1
Who all reading and commenting on this suffers from the delusion that they have privacy? Who suffers from the same kind of delusion called security? Lets all take a deep breath and a sip of coffee now. Feeling secure and private are just that......feelings. So, what's the problem. Who cares if they wire tap you (points finger)? Do you have something to hide or are you arguing the principles and the feeling of privacy. Regardless of your feelings they'll do like always and do what they want, they'll cover it up like always or doctor paperwork to make it look legite. So what are you really debating about and is there anything you can do to make a difference?


RE: This Sucks...
By Magius on 2/16/2008 12:42:33 AM , Rating: 2
Right, that is one of the best excuses to erode rights... "Do you have something to hide?". Well mate, I may not have something to hide but I sure aren't a novel, book, or peep show. Thin or not, at least now whomever breaks the law can be prosecuted. Of course, none of this is perfect, as we can see how the current administration has gotten away with lying, destroying evidence, etc. Nonetheless, it is not an excuse to roll over and play dead.

The problem here is not the checking out communications of suspects, it is how this suspicion is validated and who makes sure this power doesn't become abused. Anyone here remembers a certain Mr. Hoover?

As for the precedent this sets. Where do we stop? How much do we erode the rights set by our forefathers in the name of "liberty and democracy"? Are we going to start using methods and devices that countries we so criticized in the past have used? Ah, wait, it seems we are well on our way to do so (ID card or "national passports" and certain interrogating techniques).


RE: This Sucks...
By eye smite on 2/18/2008 11:14:19 PM , Rating: 4
I think the biggest problem is people getting hyped up about something and not doing anything about it. I guess that's just another opinion though.


RE: This Sucks...
By Skitchin on 2/14/2008 4:02:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"reasonable basis to conclude that one party to the communication is a member of al Qaeda, affiliated with al Qaeda, or a member of an organization affiliated with al Qaeda, or working in support of al Qaeda."


Ah, I get it; the loophole is that all they have to do is call themselves something other than al Qaeda and they'll be scott free, am I right?

Honestly, how can you read that sentence and not realize it is flooded with post-9/11 scare tactics? Besides, think about this for a moment - there are prisoners in our own system, who live under constant surveillance, that are able to establish a code and communicate kill request all from using the prisons own phone. Now, with this in mind, how is it that we plan to pull one over on ol' Al, a group with intelligent and radical thinkers, all whom which have a common goal of our demise, by simply tapping our communication systems? How many terrorist have we stopped with this system so far? Are we ACTUALLY paying people to sit around constantly analyzing calls that could "reasonably" be terrorist? Give me a break.


RE: This Sucks...
By FITCamaro on 2/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: This Sucks...
By TechIsGr8 on 2/14/2008 1:19:05 PM , Rating: 2
and you know this how? You work for the NSA?


RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/14/2008 1:41:28 PM , Rating: 2
infact wasn't there that story here a couple months ago about AT&T setting up monitoring stations for that NSA presumably so they could run scanning programs over the majority of communications?


RE: This Sucks...
By TechIsGr8 on 2/14/2008 2:08:19 PM , Rating: 1
and, in fact, bush and cheney started the illegal wiretapping and FISA lawbreaking right after they got into office, well before 9/11/2001. That's the nature of my angst for the whole thing. If it was just fear mongering following 9/11, then fine, maybe a pass is deserved. But no, while cheney was secretly meeting with the oil execs, spreading out maps of Iraq and dividing up the oil fields, they were telling the telecoms to violate the US Constitution. A fun band of merry criminals, aren't they?


RE: This Sucks...
By encryptkeeper on 2/14/2008 2:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
OK, so you seem to be willing to let a few freedoms go for some perception of added safety. I can understand that even if I don't happen to agree. That's one of the great things about a free society (or, did it get just a little less free?). My question is, how far can the government go before you feel your freedoms are being impeded on? And do you realize virtually everything in politics is like a slippery slope?


RE: This Sucks...
By MustangMike on 2/15/2008 8:22:21 PM , Rating: 1
You hit it the nail on the head!!
Honestly let's slow down and actually think this through.
You know what rather then me explain it all for you why don't you just read the damn thing. I'll even be nice and post the ACTUAL 1978 FISA Bill and the latest version that passed in the senate! Then we can actually debate on REAL SUBSTANCE AND NOT HEARSAY!

1978 Version
House bill H.R. 7308 > http://www.cnss.org/fisa011078.pdf
Senate bill S. 1566 > http://www.cnss.org/S1566.pdf
Enacted Final Version > http://www.cnss.org/PL%2095-511.pdf

2008 Update
House Bill H. R. 3773
http://thomas.loc.gov/beta/billView.jsp?&k2dockey=...
Senate Bill S. 2248
http://thomas.loc.gov/beta/billView.jsp?&k2dockey=...


RE: This Sucks...
By Fusible on 2/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/14/2008 1:49:09 PM , Rating: 4
No man, its more like malptacticing doctors being forced to hand out settlements before a lawsuite is ever filed.

We have a legal system for a reason.

We have an ammendment to our constitution that reads
quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


At the risk of being called crazy or leftist, I need to say that I feel this is bordering on unconstitutional...


RE: This Sucks...
By MrBungle on 2/14/2008 3:41:17 PM , Rating: 4
Man, isn't it sad that one has to make statements like "At the risk of being called crazy or leftist..." to stand behind the Constitution these days?

I get this kind of reaction, too, when I try to argue a point based on Constitutionality. The Bush administration's great success has been polarizing the populace so much that people make absurd, historically ignorant statements like "Well, if you've got nothing to hide..." and "The government has our best interests in mind."

It used to be a positive and healthy thing to criticize and be skeptical about the actions of your own government, but now you're called a "nutjob" or a "tin foil hat conspiracy theorist" just because you're diligent in relating historical precedents to contemporary situations.

With that kind of climate, someone in power can do almost anything in the name of "spreading freedom" and "combating terror" even if he's doing exactly the opposite in his own backyard.


RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/15/2008 12:47:04 AM , Rating: 2
It is not entierly bush. Good willed people often make mistakes too; such as the many who understand that what bush is doing is bad, but don't have the ability to clearly articulate it. Often it does come off as nonsense and counter-critics have probably just become lazy and assume most points critical to bush are more along the lines of "not quite to the point," and thus just dismiss them all as "nut-job" or "crazy." (It is reasonable to see how if you don't quite understand the powerplays this adminstation is using, when you attempt to describe them they may come off as conspiratorial and etc.). The point that is most important to consider here though is that just as the critics miss the point from time to time, counter-critics have fallen into the same trap, some assuming that all criticizms are "nut-job" and "whacko."

The most important element lacking from both the critics and counter critics is disgression.


RE: This Sucks...
By Alexstarfire on 2/14/2008 12:58:29 PM , Rating: 1
I think that's just some crappy way to justify that this bill is constitutional. Like terrorists can't live in the US? Come on. I'm not saying that they do of course, but it'd be very naive to think that terrorists only exist outside the US.

I'm guessing that you don't ever call outside the US. I for one call my GF in Taiwan at least twice a week. I don't really like the idea I could be wiretapped for saying the wrong thing. Not that I'd likely say stuff like that anyways, even if I talked about this bill or terrorists. It's that the government would be violating my privacy without a judge or some other neutral third-party and they'd be in the right. Not that they'd really care what I have to say anyways.

As I've posted before, what would happen if they wiretapped a person but found out that they traffic drugs and aren't terrorists. I seriously doubt they are going to just sit back and do nothing. It is said that only those with something to hide are going to be the ones opposed to bills of this kind, but bills like this always have the ability to become heavily abused. The government could just wiretap a person to find information to blackmail them with.

While I haven't actually read the bill, and I doubt many have since it's supposedly 100 pages long, it doesn't seem to be just from the US to the Middle East. It seems like it could be anywhere in the world, bar the US of course. Though I'm sure that'll get changed eventually should this bill get passed.


RE: This Sucks...
By straycat74 on 2/14/2008 1:37:07 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, we wouldn't want do take away the rights of drug dealers. If the government becomes aware a a phone used by terrorists, how long do you think they use that number? probably a day less than it takes to get a warrant. Oh wait - they aren't that smart, they actually don't even exist. Since everyone criticizes these programs, how about an idea on what to do besides nothing. Is doing nothing better? We did nothing for years, where did that get us?


RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/15/2008 12:48:53 AM , Rating: 2
How about this for a start.

Get a Warrant.


RE: This Sucks...
By encryptkeeper on 2/14/2008 3:58:00 PM , Rating: 1
The president’s power as military commander in chief, in time of constitutionally authorized war, of course includes the power to intercept enemy communications , including enemy communications with persons here in the United States who may be in league with the enemy, and to follow the chain of such communications where it leads, in order to wage the war against the enemy and, of vital importance, to protect the nation against further attacks.
-Michael Stokes Paulsen, Associate Dean, University of Minnesota Law School

The Congress shall have power: To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

-Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 of the US Constitution.

The War Powers Resolution (which is probably unconstitutional anyway, but unfortunately the law's constitutionality has never been brought before the supreme court) only allows for the President to use military forces for 60 days. Plus, the ability to intercept "enemy communications" is only for CONSTITUTIONALLY authorized war. So one way or another, doesn't this mean the wiretapping is illegal?


RE: This Sucks...
By mmntech on 2/14/2008 12:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
Definitely but it depends on which branch of conservatism he follows. Individual rights are a major component for more libertarian leaning conservatives but not so much traditionalists and the religious right.

Even though there is such a law, I wounder if it would hold up in the Supreme Court. Spying on citizens should violate the first, fourth, and fifth amendments. If anybody was ever brought to trial over this information obtained through warrantless taps, I can't possibly see it as being admissible in court. You can't just lay out a dragnet like this to catch possible criminals. It's unconstitutional. It's specious reasoning to say that such extreme measures are protecting the US from terrorism. There's no proof either way that it's working or not. Such laws cannot be justified.


RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/15/2008 12:52:46 AM , Rating: 2
The whole point is that it wouldn't need to be admisable in court; it would do well enough to attain a search warrant to obtain admissable evidence.


RE: This Sucks...
By derwin on 2/15/2008 12:54:42 AM , Rating: 2
er in otherwords evidence gathered via these wiretaps could be used to attain a warrant to collect other evidence...

Or it could be used to attain a warrant to search a premisis (this does not mean they will find anything).


RE: This Sucks...
By Gravemind123 on 2/14/2008 3:02:14 PM , Rating: 2
My life has changed because I have been disillusioned about what the government actually cares about. The president swore an oath to uphold the Constitution then him, the administration and the Senate go and tear into the freedoms it was supposed to guarantee the people of this country. The Founding Fathers had some great ideas and I don't like the fact that the current government would throw away what this country was founded on for any reason.

Also, the fact that any of my phone calls can be listened to scares me, if I am not suspected of doing anything wrong(as in, they don't have a warrant for wiretapping my phone) then I should not have anyone listening in on me. Sure I won't ever get busted for anything as I have no intention of ever comitting a crime, but I just don't like my privacy invaded.


RE: This Sucks...
By dluther on 2/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: This Sucks...
By eye smite on 2/15/2008 3:04:35 AM , Rating: 4
Then exercise your 2nd ammendment rights and go do something about it instead of ranting on a blog eh?


RE: This Sucks...
By DRMichael on 2/15/2008 1:41:56 PM , Rating: 2
This may take some time but I cannot in good conscious let these preposterous statements go unanswered. Additionally, I will provide the links to both the Bill of Rights as well as the USA PATRIOT ACT so that it may easily be referenced.

BILL OF RIGHTS http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_...

USA PATRIOT ACT http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi...
quote:
If I feel that I have been threatened or my privacy violated, I cannot sue.

Please inform me when the judicial branch of our government was dissolved. If you believe that the USA PATRIOT ACT is unconstitutional, utilize your 1st Amendment rights for redress of grievances and challenge it in court. Additionally, the USA PATRIOT ACT specifically addresses Civil actions against the United States by amending TITLE 18, Chapter 121 by adding Sec. 2712 paragraph a)
In General.--Any person who is aggrieved by any willful violation of this chapter or of chapter 119 of this title or of sections 106(a), 305(a), or 405(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) may commence an action in United States District Court against the United States to recover money damages. In any such action, if a person who is aggrieved successfully establishes such a violation of this chapter or of chapter 119 of this title or of the above specific provisions of title 50, the Court may assess as damages--
``(1) actual damages, but not less than $10,000, whichever
amount is greater; and
``(2) litigation costs, reasonably incurred.


quote:
The so-called "Patriot Act" provides for prohibition of any citizen to keep and bear arms without showing any shred of evidence for it, without just cause or due process.

This is FALSE. Nowhere in the act does it repeal the 2nd Amendment.
quote:
The so-called "Patriot Act" provides for my financial records, medical records, telephone conversations, and indeed my very house to be searched without my consent, without any oversight, due process, or probably (sic)cause presented.

This is FALSE.
quote:
The so-called "Patriot Act" makes it possible that anyone can accuse me of being a "terrorist", and I can be shipped off to Guantanamo for the special treatment.

This is FALSE. The USA PATRIOT ACT does not address this whatsoever. However, the DETAINEE TREATMENT ACT of 2005 (http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2005/12/detaine... does address procedures and policies for persons detained by the DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE. Of course if you were outside the U.S. and engaged in battle with U.S. forces you would be subject to detention. To imply that a citizen within the U.S. could be accused of terrorism without due process would be in violation of the Constitution. Additionally, the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prevents the military from executing the laws of the United States.
quote:
Should I be accused and detained for suspected "terrorism", The so-called "Patriot Act" says that I would not have rights to counsel, a jury trial, or be allowed to call upon my accuser.

This is FALSE. See previous Quote.
quote:
Amendment VII:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

This is NOT Amendment VII.
Amendment VIII states: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
The water boarding that you are referring to does not fall under the protection of the Constitution since it was not administered to a U.S. Citizen.
However, I’ll assume that you’re referring to TITLE 18 U.S.C. § 2340A (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/... ).

The argument, for which there are always two sides, is whether or not “Water Boarding” is considered torture.


RE: This Sucks...
By Noya on 2/14/2008 10:40:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd have hoped that the Democrats would finally have done something to save our freedoms, but as always, here's the new boss, same as the old boss.


The whole Dem. vs Rep. thing is an illusion for the common man to believe he is free, that he actually has a choice in voting.

RFID's will be here soon enough...as will FITcamaro and mdogs444 blind support of the US Gov.

Where are the terrorists? Why aren't they sneaking up through Mexico with the other 20k+ illegals every month? OH, that's right, there are NO terrorists outside of Iraq (and even they're just the locals and maybe some of Saddams ex-loyalists fighting it out).


RE: This Sucks...
By Noya on 2/14/2008 10:43:35 AM , Rating: 2
It looks like good'ol boy Mdogs444 beat to my own post. He must have the General Lee of super-computers...


RE: This Sucks...
By mdogs444 on 2/14/2008 10:45:11 AM , Rating: 3
Nothing like making an entrance...


RE: This Sucks...
By dluther on 2/14/2008 8:48:43 PM , Rating: 2
Or the same old tired rhetoric set up as a speed key macro. You think this is the first time he's asked that?


RE: This Sucks...
By sweetsauce on 2/14/2008 10:44:58 AM , Rating: 1
Don't use common sense man, you might be labeled "unpatriotic". Oh yeah, i bet you "hate the troops" too. Don't you know they hate us for our freedom... oh shit how do we sell that if we keep taking away people's freedom?


RE: This Sucks...
By Omega215D on 2/14/2008 11:14:42 AM , Rating: 2
The US government must hate its own troops. I was reading a newspaper article (a small one at that taken over by the latest sports scandal) on how a US sniper was following orders from his officer and is now facing murder charges and 15 years in prison.

The officer ordered the sniper to kill a detained person because the person was making a lot of noise that may give away their hiding post.

If the sniper didn't follow the order I'm pretty sure there would've been a court martial so the sniper is screwed either way.


RE: This Sucks...
By Ringold on 2/14/2008 11:18:31 AM , Rating: 2
All members of the military are, to my understanding, obligated to ignore illegal orders from superiors such as that. If he was dumb enough to go ahead and do it then he deserves the 15 years.


RE: This Sucks...
By tdawg on 2/14/2008 11:28:09 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Soldiers do not have to obey illegal and unethical orders from their superiors.


RE: This Sucks...
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/14/2008 12:38:42 PM , Rating: 4
Eichmann pretty much set all the precedence in the world for this. If you don't know who he is (not directed at you tdawg), start Googling now.


RE: This Sucks...
By FITCamaro on 2/14/2008 12:47:25 PM , Rating: 2
As soldiers, they also have their duty to complete their mission. If it means killing an enemy who's trying to give away your position which could result in the death of your squad, you do it.

I've got no problem with them putting a bullet in an insurgents head if it means they stay safe. Anyone who believes otherwise should be ashamed of themselves. To put the life of an enemy soldier before that of our own troops is just disgusting.


RE: This Sucks...
By bodar on 2/14/2008 3:51:26 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I've got no problem with them nuking the site from orbit if it means they stay safe. Anyone who believes otherwise should be ashamed of themselves. To put the life of an enemy soldier before that of our own troops is just disgusting.


Fixed. Come on, why not go all the way? Clearly, lethal force is the only way to get things done and if we don't support any action that guarantees the safety of our troops, we are "letting the terrorists win". That's exactly what you're saying.

"He who fights with monsters should be careful least he thereby becomes a monster. When you stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back at you." -- Nietzsche


RE: This Sucks...
By bodar on 2/14/2008 10:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/08/iraq/mai...

Clearly, the situation was complicated, but I'm not sure if it warranted shooting him. On the one hand they could have just cracked him upside the head with said pistol, but that would not be guaranteed to knock him out in time.

The guy was probably just yelling because he didn't understand why they were holding a gun to his head. I'd like to know why he was just chillin around the soldiers in the first place, but I guess that'll be forever unsolved.

I still reject the idea that killing people who have not directly posed a threat is always OK as long as our troops are safe. According to the unclassified parts of the Army's current Standing Rules of Engagement (CJCSI 3121.01B) lethal force can only be used when someone has at least shown hostile intent. The soldiers' own testimony says that this guy approached with raised hands and no weapons were later found. In fact, other unit members were found guilty of planting an AK-47 on his corpse.

We may never know all the facts surrounding that incident but by all accounts, it sounds like both sides get screwed.

I will concede that the concepts of personal and unit self-defense described in the SROE are too murky right now, and a seemingly easy for an enemy to exploit:
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/...


RE: This Sucks...
By FITCamaro on 2/15/2008 8:30:51 AM , Rating: 2
Way to act like a liberal and completely exaggerate. You just equated shooting a single hostile to nuking an entire area.

Now one use of tactical nukes to save our own people would be to nuke large tank regiments so they cannot be brought into battle. This was the plan if the Soviets ever attacked as while the majority of their tanks aren't anywhere near as good as ours, they have an incredibly large number of them.


RE: This Sucks...
By bodar on 2/15/2008 4:28:50 PM , Rating: 2
Except that he wasn't hostile. The soldiers never said that he did anything to show hostile intent. Noisy and stupid =/= hostile. Also, from the CBS article they had detained this guy and his son for an hour. Why didn't they gag him earlier, if they were so afraid of being discovered? I'm gonna say "sleep deprivation" FTW, but you can't say that this guy deserved to die for being a "hostile". He never did anything hostile. We also cannot completely trust the soldiers' accounts since they tried to cover it up after the fact. If you do believe their accounts, then it was a lose-lose situation brought on by the Iraqi's curiosity and the soldiers' exhaustion.

Way to act like a neo-conservative and completely ignore facts. Did you even RTFA?


RE: This Sucks...
By bodar on 2/15/2008 4:37:31 PM , Rating: 2
Also, can't we find a middle-ground between completely cutting off our troops' nuts to effectively defend themselves and Blackwater mowing down anything that moves?

I understand that we are second-guessing decisions that were based on limited info they had at the time -- hindsight's 20/20 and all that -- but there should be SOME responsibility involved. Is it right to just say, "Oh well, screw 'em." whenever a mistake is made?


RE: This Sucks...
By bodar on 2/15/2008 4:41:10 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry for triple-posting, but I have to admit that I'd probably agree with shooting him if he was a KNOWN hostile trying to give away their position.


RE: This Sucks...
By CascadingDarkness on 2/15/2008 5:26:53 PM , Rating: 2
That won't stop The Rock from shooting you in the neck during a mission gone wrong on mars...

...couldn't help it.


RE: This Sucks...
By clovell on 2/14/2008 11:38:05 AM , Rating: 2
It's also rather unethical to let someone give away your position and have your entire platoon wiped out. This isn't the ivory tower of black and white, gentlemen - it's a friggin battlefield.

Chances are, that if he hadn't shot the guy, he wouldn't be court martialed - he'd be dead. Reminds me of a story I once heard about a soldier in Vietnam. His platoon as out on patrol and they had a photo-journalist embedded in the unit. But the jerk wouldn't quit snapping pictures. The CO told him to cut it out a few times and then gave him a final warning that if he didn't stop, he'd be shot. It didn't end well for the photo-journalist.


RE: This Sucks...
By tdawg on 2/14/2008 11:41:22 AM , Rating: 2
They could have tied him up and taped his mouth shut with duct tape. That'll limit the amount of noise he could make without shooting a prisoner of war.


RE: This Sucks...
By clovell on 2/14/2008 11:46:30 AM , Rating: 2
I guess I wasn't thinking outside the box. Even then, he could probably make noise, but you're right, there are a lot of things you can do short of killing someone to make them shut up.


RE: This Sucks...
By maverick85wd on 2/14/2008 12:34:52 PM , Rating: 2
it wasn't a game of tag, it's war. It comes down to us or them... and that means they gotta go. That's just human nature.

I would have shot the guy too. If it's me and my comrades or a POW, consider him dead.


RE: This Sucks...
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 2/14/2008 1:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
Who's job was it to tape the guys mouth shut in the first place though ... it should never have come to "us or them"


RE: This Sucks...
By TechIsGr8 on 2/14/2008 1:40:06 PM , Rating: 4
I love this black and white type of discussion. It plays into the White House Nazis who framed the phony war on terrorism as "you're either with us or you're a terrorist". It's a pretty simplistic "us or them" model, but it plays strong to the weakest minds that are incapable of understanding circumstantial nuance, and only capable of reacting by instinct to fear propaganda.


RE: This Sucks...
By Noya on 2/14/2008 1:56:16 PM , Rating: 2
Well said.


RE: This Sucks...
By Omega215D on 2/14/2008 5:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
The sadder thing is that the newspaper I read it in only had a small amount of info about it. Sad state of affairs when the people in this country care more about their celebs than the people dying supposedly for their country.

by the way I didn't mean to start a long discussion on this.


RE: This Sucks...
By maverick85wd on 2/15/2008 1:51:52 PM , Rating: 2
war on terrorism propaganda? I hardly pay attention to it. I think like that because I'm in the military. When it comes time to go to war, it's us or them.


RE: This Sucks...
By TechIsGr8 on 2/16/2008 3:34:48 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, you are, in fact, part of the problem. No point in researching the facts, let's just go drop some bombs and maybe we'll sort it out later. Tough guy.


RE: This Sucks...
By DRMichael on 2/20/2008 6:47:45 PM , Rating: 3
You’re nothing but a self righteous hypocrite . Only an immature prepubescent punk would say something so ignorant. If being in the military is “part of the problem” what does that make you? The service members in the military signed up of their own volition. They were not forced at gunpoint. Why don’t you do something like STOP PAYING TAXES that fund this war – that by the way, doesn’t affect you. Or better yet, if your not here in the U.S. paying taxes, join the TALIBAN or INSURGENT fighters. Anything less makes YOU PART OF PROBLEM!


RE: This Sucks...
By C'DaleRider on 2/14/2008 5:24:22 PM , Rating: 3
Too bad that story is just that....a BS story.

First, embedding photo-journalists didn't happen in Vietnam. Embedding is a new thing that came into being with this war we're in now....in an attempt to make the war "transparent" and more palatable to the public.

True, journalists did get temp. assigned to some units, but it was very rare to have one in a front-line area for any length of time. IF you could even remember back then, Cronkite, Rather, et al, did reports from the front, but they were few and far between...typically doen as a special, not as a routine assignment.

Second, journalists NEVER accompanied bush patrols....and absolutely knew to keep their asses down and their mouths shut when in the field. Casualties were high then and no on e wanted to die for a worthless war.

My knowledge in this? I was a medic assigned to the 20th Combat Engineer Bn., a front-line unit, from 1969-1970. Never had photo-journalists "embedded" in our unit and when journalists made vists, which were rare, they were NEVER invited to trip the light fantastic and go on patrol into the bush.

Your story is BS....pure and simple.


RE: This Sucks...
By Ringold on 2/14/2008 5:38:32 PM , Rating: 2
I mispoke, then. My mistake. All I saw was "detained person", the giving away the position part didn't register first time I read it. I had an image of killing a prisoner in some prison or the likes.