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DailyTech Poll Discussion What are you thoughts on Microsoft's Xbox Live bans?
Brandon Hill (Blog) - November 30, 2009 12:00 AM
Print 41 comment(s) - last by mitchstein.. on Dec 4 at 12:20 AM
Microsoft brought the ban hammer down on one million Xbox Live users. What's your opinion on the subject?

What are you thoughts on Microsoft's Xbox Live bans?
  • Microsoft had every right to ban users – on the spot without warning – who were using machines with altered firmware/hardware. (1,530 votes)
  •  
    39%
  • While the bans were proper, Microsoft could have at least provided a pop-up warning to modded console users to let them know they were in imminent danger of being banned permanently. (1,472 votes)
  •  
    37%
  • Microsoft had no right to ban consoles that users paid hard-earned money for. (950 votes)
  •  
    24%

  • 3,952 total votes

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Seems right to me.
By jordanclock on 11/30/2009 11:50:52 AM , Rating: 5
There is no "Xbox 360 homebrew" scene. There is only piracy. My room mate has two modded 360s and doesn't play any new games because he knows they'll get banned. We both agree that Microsoft is in the right to do this.

I think people need to realize that no users are being banned from Xbox Live. Xbox 360s are being banned. Purchasing a new (unmodded) console will allow you to use your account again. The last option in the poll is blatantly incorrect. For instance, one friend had is 360 banned in this last wave. However, if he signs into his Xbox Live account from any non-modded 360, everything works just fine. No one is losing $50. You're losing the chance to continue playing online with hardware that Microsoft has not authorized on their network.

You're on their network. Their closed network. If you want to modify your hardware, don't expect them to allow you on it anymore.




RE: Seems right to me.
By Bateluer on 11/30/09, Rating: 0
RE: Seems right to me.
By amanojaku on 11/30/2009 6:49:13 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Which is why consumers should never support closed systems.
Reader1, is that you? (o_O)


RE: Seems right to me.
By inighthawki on 12/1/2009 4:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
I think you have it backwards, if it were reader1 he would've said that every system should be closed like this and that way piracy would be eliminated, or something close to that.


RE: Seems right to me.
By StevoLincolnite on 12/2/2009 1:31:30 PM , Rating: 2
For starters, it's impossible to eliminate piracy completely.

Heck, people used to Pirate VHS and Cassette Tapes, decades ago!


RE: Seems right to me.
By rudy on 12/1/2009 2:53:01 AM , Rating: 2
Consoles are closed systems consumers should not support them at all but they do. So I guess for the consumer they must see some value in it.


RE: Seems right to me.
By 9nails on 12/1/2009 12:32:27 PM , Rating: 2
My wireless (cell phone) company is a closed system. Does this logic extend to them as well?

My thoughts are that, along with the wireless services, the hosting company is responsible for some quality control. Xbox Live does run a service over the public internet, but that portion of their service is exempt. However, the devices are controlled by the host at a collection point and this dictates the devices which connect to their service. There is some service expectations that customers have on Xbox Live, such as availability or performance related, which I believe does justify these actions.


RE: Seems right to me.
By akse on 12/3/2009 1:34:30 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah consoles are closed systems, which brings a question to my mind, why these people see all the trouble to mod the Xbox, why not just build your own Living Room entertainment center from PC parts (HTPC).

Pick parts that are powerful enough to run games too. Get some wireless pads and mouse+keyboard.


RE: Seems right to me.
By Jalek on 12/1/2009 6:36:22 PM , Rating: 2
It certainly makes things easier than having to ban people by the thousands as Valve is doing. If modded hardware's allowed on XBL, then all machines need cheat detection and other performance-robbing layers running as well for online gaming.

It doesn't stop haxx0rz but it does make it more difficult having it closed.


RE: Seems right to me.
By Vagisil on 11/30/2009 1:41:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is no "Xbox 360 homebrew" scene. There is only piracy. My room mate has two modded 360s and doesn't play any new games because he knows they'll get banned. We both agree that Microsoft is in the right to do this.

There is an Xbox 360 homebrew scene.
You need an Xbox 360 kernel version prior to 7371 otherwise your bootloader is fixed. With it you can run Xell (linux loader) things like mario or you can reboot into a patched dashboard.

I personally agree with these bans but besides piracy assuming you have the correct knowledge to hand there's a growing list of things you can do with your console.


RE: Seems right to me.
By PitViper007 on 11/30/2009 2:17:26 PM , Rating: 2
While I agree with everything you said, where I think Microsoft may be in trouble is the bricking of features that have nothing to do with Xbox Live. Things like the disallowing of hard drive installations (possibly corrupting the data on the existing installed hard drive) and taking out the media extender functionality, as well as the related removal of access to third party memory, it's all shaky ground. While Microsoft has every right to dictate what hardware can and can not log onto Xbox Live, these devices ARE the property of the end user, legally purchased and owned. At the least, what Microsoft has done could be considered malicious destruction. But then, that's just my view.


RE: Seems right to me.
By PrezWeezy on 11/30/2009 3:10:30 PM , Rating: 3
What you are failing to mention here is that Microsoft actually pays money to license the codecs used for certain features. I'm sure that their agreement with the IP owners of said codecs states that each console must be unmodded to protect their code. This means that in order for Microsoft to stay legal with the agreements they have made, they must disable the use of these codecs, which includes the things they did. I'm not sure why they haven't released a statement along those lines, but I'm sure their lawyers know what they are doing. And don't think ANY move MS makes happens without passing legal to begin with.


RE: Seems right to me.
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 11:17:44 PM , Rating: 2
"Protect their code" from what? Codec owners don't need any code protection, they just need paid which is to be included in the price of the system.

Even if such an agreement existed, IF MS did not ship modded boxes they are not in legal trouble and do not have to disable anything.


RE: Seems right to me.
By Lerianis on 12/3/2009 1:54:10 PM , Rating: 2
DING!DING!DING! We have a winner folks! That is exactly right: as long as Microsoft is not selling the modified consoles THEMSELVES.... they are OFF THE HOOK!


Read the EULA
By rdhood on 12/1/2009 8:59:19 AM , Rating: 1
The EULA governs what they can and cannot do. They CAN put software on the box that enables them to detect modded Xbox360 consoles that allow the users to play "backup" games, unreleased games, and cheat.

As far as I could read, their ONLY right is to cut off the user from XBox Live and ban the console. This does NOT give Microsoft the right to brick their hard drives or corrupt their data. This does not give Microsoft the right ban users with or disable third party memory cards or hard drives, as those modifications do not violate EULA by having modded the console or enable cheating or playing pirated disks.

Microsoft overstepped their authority. The only thing the EULA gives them the right to do is to ban someone on Xbox Live. If I open up my Xbox360 console, Microsoft does not have the right to disable it or alter it's off-the-net functionality in any way.




RE: Read the EULA
By PitViper007 on 12/1/2009 10:54:25 AM , Rating: 2
That's the way I see it as well. They are perfectly within their rights to lock the modded boxes out of Xbox Live, but that's the extent of it. I feel they've opened themselves up to MANY lawsuits due to the "extra" things they did. How those suits will play out is anyone's guess.


RE: Read the EULA
By OrSin on 12/1/2009 12:37:06 PM , Rating: 2
Has anyone actually read the EULA of the console not the Live agreement. They have the right to brick the box if they feel it has been altered in anyway. When you open the console you do more then void the warranty. You actually void the console. Not saying its right or wrong but it is what it is. MS loses money on each console (or at least they did, it might be break even now). They basicly are giving a system at a lose to make up for it later. If you can alter the system in anyway they are losing money.


RE: Read the EULA
By kc77 on 12/1/2009 11:45:26 PM , Rating: 2
EULA's are just contracts. However those contracts have to comply with State and Federal Law. Anyone can make up a contract and have you sign it. That does not mean it's enforceable.

The XBOX360 itself is hardware that is fully purchased by the owner. The only part of the XBOX360 experience that is licensed / pay as you go is the Live service. Therefore they can ban you from the Live service. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. However the buck stops when anyone attempts to brick hardware that you've purchased. You are the owner of the hardware and it doesn't matter how much MS might hate how you use it they are not allowed to brick the actual hardware within the console when they don't own the console.


RE: Read the EULA
By Murst on 12/2/2009 6:53:35 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The only part of the XBOX360 experience that is licensed / pay as you go is the Live service.

The software on the console is licensed. You do not own it.

quote:
However the buck stops when anyone attempts to brick hardware that you've purchased. You are the owner of the hardware and it doesn't matter how much MS might hate how you use it they are not allowed to brick the actual hardware within the console when they don't own the console.

As far as I know, Microsoft has not made any hardware disappear, burn, melt, or destruct in any way.

I'm sure you can still access all of the hardware in your console. You just have to use your own code, just don't expect MS to do it for you.


RE: Read the EULA
By Lerianis on 12/3/2009 1:58:17 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I have a problem with the banning from the Live service, unless they can prove that you were actually cheating (and didn't just have the CAPABILITY to cheat).

That is the thing that many people are forgetting here: they are AUTOMATICALLY assuming that 'modified firmware' = pirates! Not true in the slightest. I have friends who have modded their consoles to play backed up games and have bought EVERY SINGLE ONE of their games legally!

It's time for these companies to realize 'modification which CAN be used for piracy by someone' /= to someone actually using it for piracy.

Until the Xbox360 and other discs are TOTALLY DAMNED SCRATCHPROOF..... then, these modifications, which can be used to play backed up games, should be allowed.


unbelievable
By del on 11/30/2009 1:55:28 PM , Rating: 2
I can't believe 22% of people think that M$ doesn't have a right to ban people without warning...




RE: unbelievable
By FastEddieLB on 11/30/2009 3:31:35 PM , Rating: 2
In a completely unrelated statistic, 22% of people now approve of being F*** in the A** with a red hot poker.


RE: unbelievable
By crazyblackman on 11/30/09, Rating: -1
RE: unbelievable
By ajira99 on 12/1/2009 12:29:00 PM , Rating: 3
You get down-voted for using 'M$' as if it were still "leet" or even relevant -- the same business "model" can be applied to '$ony', since both companies have done things to benefit their shareholders (BD vs. proprietary HDD, etc).


RE: unbelievable
By crazyblackman on 12/1/09, Rating: -1
RE: unbelievable
By StevoLincolnite on 12/2/2009 1:40:39 PM , Rating: 1
If it helps the buttons are more like: "I agree" and "I disagree" rather than "Worth reading" and "Not worth reading".

However, calling someone a child? Seriously... you shouldn't try to beat them down when you suffer from the same plausible problem.

Regarding the "M$" - I personally don't have a large issue with it, however generally when someone uses the "$" in a company name, they loose all credibility with me, regardless of which company it is, because then you KNOW they are anti-that company on some level and have bias.


RE: unbelievable
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 11:26:11 PM , Rating: 2
The buttons are more like "your idea is pleasing to me" or "that's not the way I want things to be". Post something factual that rubs someone the wrong way and it's irrelevant if they can logically find a fault or not to agree or disagree.

If someone posts M$, there is no reason to assume anything about the credibility of the rest of their post, essentially you are stating that if you disagree with someone's thoughts about MS tendency to let money drive their actions, you automatically discount all their other points which is clearly an invalid method of communication equivalent to burying your head in the sand not to see or hear anything.

So what if someone is against MS, maybe just maybe they have reasons that form the bias and if you don't "like" their reasons that alone does not constitute illogical bias on their part.

Why wouldn't someone be against a company they perceive as doing something negative? Remember it's only words, I don't recall anyone planning to get a gang together and firebomb them or anything.


RE: unbelievable
By leexgx on 12/2/2009 1:08:12 AM , Rating: 1
can't down rate you any more


RE: unbelievable
By crazyblackman on 12/2/09, Rating: 0
RE: unbelievable
By leexgx on 12/3/2009 5:02:06 PM , Rating: 2
have to say lol


Wrongful bans
By Lance176 on 12/3/2009 11:27:01 AM , Rating: 2
Many peolpe do not understand that users are being banned for alterations other than firmware modifications than enabled the play of pirated games. I am not an expert on this subject, and will not pretend to be one - but my techie friend informed me of this. He has modded many Xbox's to play pirated games, and reversed the mod as well.

Many users that buy Xbox 360 dvd drives online to replace their old / faulty drives are being banned. In order to properly install the new drives, technical work has to be done involving the matching of system serial numbers / firmware keys / etc. During this process, many users have ended up getting their systems banned, despite the fact that they were not altering the firmware to play pirated games. I cannot go into much more detail about this, but the fact and the matter is, many of these bans are uncalled for. I believe that consumers should be able to replace their faulty dvd drives manually if they have the ability to. These drives fail far too often...




RE: Wrongful bans
By Lerianis on 12/3/2009 1:47:54 PM , Rating: 2
Hey, even if these people have 'firmware modifications', they most that Microsoft should do is a big fat NOTHING because you cannot tell who are the people who are playing LEGALLY BACKED UP GAMES on the XBox360 and who are pirating games!

It's time for Microsoft to realize that anti-customer things like this are wrong, and if you do them..... SUED INTO OBLIVION!

I'm really surprised that I haven't seen a class action lawsuit filed on behalf of these people yet.


RE: Wrongful bans
By pinstripe on 12/3/2009 1:48:36 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, it's pretty lame if you had a modded 360 purely for "legit" reasons like a better DVD drive, bigger hard drive, etc. However, it's quite obviously a closed platform that the holder doesn't want anyone to mess with, and anyone expecting otherwise in this day and age is pretty naive. There are always risks to modding closed platforms like this (the iPhone comes to mind), and you should always know the risks involved.

Is it how I would personally like the platform? No. Being able to add a bigger hard drive, quieter DVD drive on your own would be a great feature for someone like me. Is it how Microsoft controls it's platform for profit? Yes. Expecting them to do otherwise is unrealistic. I would think when people bought the thing they would realize this.


Hard Drive
By ajoyner777 on 12/2/2009 1:38:29 AM , Rating: 3
If I want to buy a 360 compatible hard drive and partition it so it works with the 360 I should be able to. I shouldn't be forced to buy a "special" drive that costs 2-3x as much.




RE: Hard Drive
By wolrah on 12/2/2009 3:20:44 PM , Rating: 2
You can do that quite easily. I have a 250GB Western Digital drive in mine, currently flashed as a 120GB Xbox 360 drive, but I will be reflashing it to 250GB once I redo the NAND on my 360 to regain most of the disabled features.


None Of Gates' Business
By mgilbert on 12/3/2009 12:08:09 PM , Rating: 2
What I do with my X-Box is none of Microsoft's damned business. If I want to use it to chock a tire on my car while I change the oil, that's my business.




RE: None Of Gates' Business
By Lerianis on 12/3/2009 1:52:15 PM , Rating: 2
Quite true.... if a 'modification' can be used for cheating, then banning from XBox Live ONLY if they see you cheating with it is okay.... otherwise, Microsoft should BUTT THE HELL OUT!

It is my choice whether to 'mod' my system or not, and if Microsoft bricks any part of it.... SUE TIME!

Anyway, all of this could be AVOIDED if Microsoft had OUT OF THE BOX the ability to play backed-up games! Yes, I know..... WHO WOULD BUY THE REAL GAMES THEN!? Me, for one!
I'm seriously getting tired of buying games on discs only to have the frigging things get scratched when I treat them like they are made out of STAINED GLASS.... either Microsoft should offer return for new disc or offer the ability to play backed up games..... one or the other.


Yes and no
By HostileEffect on 12/2/2009 5:47:14 PM , Rating: 2
My opinion: Microsoft owns the service, yes, they may kick off whoever they care to but reducing functionality or basically breaking someones console is a big no.

I wouldn't mind an option to go completely around Live, self hosted servers and the ability to allow anyone to play regardless of hardware modifications, like the PC. If my memory is working well, Steam has the option of non-VAC servers and even cheating may be allowed if the host permits.

I don't own a Xbox360 and its unlikely I would ever own one unless it was free, even then the games and "Live" do not have my interest.




Not a simple answer.
By VooDooAddict on 12/3/2009 2:20:05 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft has every right to ban modified consoles from the Live services. Live service depends on a closed system. Live is also a separate purchase and user agreement than the hardware.

The should not however have the right to damage/disable features of the console that are unrelated to Live.

Disabling the media playing features was a bad move for Microsoft. Playing back local media has no relation to the Live service.




By crazyblackman on 12/3/2009 9:34:14 PM , Rating: 2
Then again, a lot of people that have either been sexually assaulted or "raped", almost never report the "rape" or even "realize that they were raped at all".
Most of these people find themselves to be somewhat "loyal" to their attacker because the "attack" seemed to be so harmless and may even be somewhat pleasureful at times. They have often sought out the comfort and solace of other completely unaware victims. This allowed them to feel some sense of normalcy where they were able to temporarily bury their feelings of denial and shame, and loss. They would always come back for more, even though they knew each time, it would prove to be much more costly for them in the long run.
Each time, the added cost would start to outweigh the benefit, until eventually, they were finally able to somehow be strong enough to break their crippling addiction to this underlying pain.

Kind of like owning a 360. Eh?




The right to ban or not to ban
By mitchstein on 12/4/2009 12:20:55 AM , Rating: 2
I've been an avid player of warcraft III on battlenet going on 10 years now. I've seen the best hacking and the best cheaters in the gaming world on there, not one of them ever made it to the top of a competition or won a prize. Nor did they keep me from playing honestly. It's a matter of maturity, when an obvious hacker joins a game the other users simply leave and start a new game, many users created ban lists to allow other users to know who is hacking and not hacking therefore never starting a game with one as a user.
Hacking will never go away MS can try to all they want to eliminate it in the name of fair play but just as the IT community has found a way to hack thier cd keys for everything from windows 2.x through windows 7 and advoid detection so will they for the gaming systems. As everyone jumps on the big companies pay as u go systems they slowly take away the ability of the "little guys" to create a successfull company in that area so please MS ban away every user from system so that us little huys will get a chance to do what we love.... entertain people.




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