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The ad that landed Time Warner in court.  (Source: Time Warner)
Humorous ads poke Verizon in all the wrong ways

A friendly rivalry between Time Warner Cable and Verizon FiOS turned serious this Wednesday, with Verizon suing Time Warner over claims of false advertising.

The suit refers to a recent ad campaign launched by Time Warner (viewable here), featuring an annoying door-to-door salesman who uses an excessively uppity sales pitch and special effects to call Verizon’s service inferior: a shortened version of the ad infers that Time Warner had fiber optic before Verizon, and a longer version insinuates that Verizon FiOS TV requires a satellite connection.

Verizon is asking the courts for a permanent injunction against the spots, $75,000 in damages, as well as the creation of a follow-up ad to correct the errors.

In Time Warner’s defense, both points raised are somewhat true: in a handful of markets, Verizon partners with DirecTV to offer video service via satellite when it would be otherwise unavailable, and both companies have used fiber optics in their backend for some time now: “All network companies have used some fiber for more than a decade,” writes Verizon Executive Director of External Communications John Czwartacki, “but only one, Verizon, takes that fiber all the way to your door.“

Time Warner spokesman Alex Dudley called the suit “without merit,” noting that the company “[looks] forward to defending against it in the appropriate venue.”

The two companies’ rivalry began when telecommunications giant Verizon made forays into the TV and internet space, in an attempt to crack the satellite/cable TV monopoly held by companies like Time Warner and Comcast. The battleground – really a free-for-all match between Verizon, AT&T, Time Warner, Comcast, and a handful of other carriers as they make inroads into each others’ territories – has since widened with the advent of the “FiOS-killer” DOCSIS 3.0 standard, which promises cable line bandwidth of 150 to 300 megabits per second over conventional copper wires.

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FIOS KIller ROFL
By HrilL on 4/10/2008 10:18:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
with the advent of the “FiOS-killer” DOCSIS 3.0 standard, which promises cable line bandwidth of 150 to 300 megabits per second over conventional copper wires.


That makes me laugh. While those speeds are possible that's not what the consumer is going to get for a very long while. And also the upstream is less than that. Where as with Fios they could give you over 1gbs over their fiber cables. And for gamers fiber will always be better as it has lower latencies. Copper will never be able to compete on par with Fiber.




RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By TomCorelis (blog) on 4/10/2008 10:49:24 PM , Rating: 5
Keep in mind that 150-300 megabits number carries TV, phone, and internet service.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By drebo on 4/11/2008 1:07:30 AM , Rating: 5
And it's to the node, not the home. They gloss over that fact. Quite conviniently, I might add.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By Alexstarfire on 4/11/2008 3:17:56 AM , Rating: 4
If you look close enough, all ads gloss over the details.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By jtemplin on 4/11/2008 8:43:29 AM , Rating: 3
They spend more money on the glossy paper in their ads, then they spend giving a crap about the details for us poor consumers :(


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By RaulF on 4/11/2008 4:48:18 AM , Rating: 2
I thought TV and Internet work in different channels via cable, so one does not interfere with the other.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By somedude1234 on 4/11/2008 9:24:57 AM , Rating: 3
On a low level, there isn't much of a difference between your internet download traffic and the digital video traffic used to deliver the TV programs. It's all QAM256 encoded binary data streams.

You can only squeeze so many of these data streams in each channel, giving you a finite amount of bandwidth to each neighborhood node.

The cable companies currently squeeze the following services onto the same wire:
- analog tv programs (a giant bandwidth hog)
- digital tv programs
- video on demand
- internet downstream
- internet upstream
- voip telephone

They have to balance how much bandwidth is allocated to each service. So they could offer faster internet downloads, but they'd have to cut back somewhere else (less analog channels is a good place to start).

This is why there has been recent news about comcast increasing the compression on a lot of HD channels. By lowering the bitrate of the video streams, they can use the recovered bandwidth for something else.

Docsis 3.0 (I'm guessing) increases the amount of data they can deliver by using more advanced digital modulation techniques... to squeeze more data on the same cable.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By tastyratz on 4/11/2008 9:46:26 AM , Rating: 3
They do
You guys are forgetting that docsis 3.0 is PER 6mhz QAM.
docsis 2.0 is somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 megs IIRC.

This is a several fold speed increase and I for one welcome it.

Perhaps we will never see those speeds but it will allow comcast to pony up and stay reasonably competitive with fiber keeping market prices in check for both of them.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By sgtdisturbed47 on 4/11/2008 5:17:45 AM , Rating: 2
Funny that you say that "for gamers fiber will always be better as it has lower latencies", I have never had latency issues with my TWC Roadrunner cable internet, at 15 Mbps down/2 Mbps up. Latency is consistently great. I'm 20 miles south of Los Angeles and I get a ping of 50-60ns to the Chicago servers I play on in Call of Duty 4.

What also needs to be considered is that sort of bandwidth comes with a price tag, and so far, home users are limited to a certain amount of that bandwidth. Comcast has raised the bar to 25 Mbps I believe, and pretty soon I'm sure TWC will up the limit.

Business users on the other hand can utilize far more, but at a huge price increase. Oh, and gigabit is pretty much limited to large buildings at a ridiculous price tag. Honestly, what we are looking at is what home users are looking for, not aimed at business users. Fios can give you 1gbps, sure, but home users will never touch that speed.

Also, fiber never comes to your home. It's the main lines that are fiber, whereas the cable that reaches your home is still copper wire. The point is it doesnt matter if you use "Fios" or cable, the reality is we will all be using cable for quite some time.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By kextyn on 4/11/2008 7:41:40 AM , Rating: 4
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're wrong on a couple points.

First, I'm in Virginia on FiOS (30/5). I just tried pinging CoD4 servers (from a few different providers) in Chicago and Los Angeles and received ~30-38ms and ~44-50ms respectively.

Second, I DO have fiber coming all the way into my apartment. I sat there and watched them bring a strand of fiber through the attic and into my closet. It then went into an ONT which converted it to coax for my cable and Cat5 for my internet (although you can use coax for both.)


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By melgross on 4/11/2008 7:56:58 AM , Rating: 3
You mean milliseconds, not nanoseconds.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By melgross on 4/11/2008 8:00:51 AM , Rating: 5
You mean milliseconds, not nanoseconds.

Oh, I forgot. In most markets, ATT only has fiber to the node, and copper to the home. But in new neighborhoods, with new construction, they are going fiber to the home, as it costs about the same to string new fiber as it does to string new copper.

All FIOS customers have fiber to the home. Very expensive to lay new fiber where copper already exists. ATT is going the cheaper route, only doing it when it doesn't cost extra..


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By nomagic on 4/11/2008 9:08:03 AM , Rating: 2
I find your lack of knowledge disturbing.

When I click on "Post Comment" in about 10 secs, this message will be posted from a FiOS HOME user.

People should check their facts before they post.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By Carter642 on 4/11/2008 9:36:29 AM , Rating: 2
Just a little lesson on how data transmission media works in the real world. Latency is not directly related to bandwidth, infact, latency over any media can be high or low mostly depending on the routers between yourself and your data's destination not whatever your home internet connection happens to use.

Your bandwidth is based on your channel allocation (what your pay for in up/down speeds) but it makes no garentees about latencies. It's possible to have a very low latency connection with a small channel allocation, and conversely using something like satallite you can have a half second latency with a huge channel allocation.

Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_latency...

Now, Fiber has a theoretical bandwidth in the terabits and coax is lower but still far more than your computer can handle at a time. Even good old phone cord has more capacity than most "high speed" connections available to the public if the phone company wasn't severely limiting the available frequency range. So the only practical difference between fiber and cable is how much bandwidth your ISP is giving you. Now quit E-peening with your fiber.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By HrilL on 4/11/08, Rating: 0
RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By HrilL on 4/11/2008 12:58:33 PM , Rating: 1
Oh I forgot to add this. At home I have cable for example. and the Best I ping to my first hop. My gateway router is 12-20ms. That router is about 3 miles away. At school we have a fiber connection and it's first hop it is <1ms. When you ping LA which is about 100 miles away you get 7-8ms that would be the second hop. The difference of latency in a all fiber network is a lot compared to a copper and fiber network. My connection is on copper for 3 miles and that adds most of my latency. Also remember that Coax is HALF-duplex meaning it can't download and upload at the same time. That adds quite a bit of latency.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By Carter642 on 4/11/2008 2:14:24 PM , Rating: 2
Signals in copper move at ~2/3 C vs Fiber, in reality the time taken by the router to process the packet is much longer than the time taken for the packet to get there.

For instance, even at 2/3 C a signal in copper takes about .024ms to get to your router versus .016ms for fiber. Either way it's not a significant part of your latency.

HFC networks (which is what your cable modem works with) are indeed full-duplex with different up and down stream bands, this is why your TV doesn't quit working when you're uploading a picture. A little informative reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial

What is likely causing your latency is network conjestion, which isn't media dependant and is entirely the fault of your ISP's cheapo accountants not the cable in the ground.

I'm not defending cable here, and certainly fiber to the door is the way to go, being cheaper, more space efficient and with a greater theoretical bandwidth. Just remember that when it comes to the technical side to point fingers in the right direction.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By Araemo on 4/11/2008 9:43:32 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have never had latency issues with my TWC Roadrunner cable internet, at 15 Mbps down/2 Mbps up.


Apparently time warner has competition where you live.

Even if I paid an extra $30/mo over the standard 7Mbit down/384k up speed, it would only go up to 15Mbit down/512k up. I am hard pressed to find downloads that saturate my 7Mbit, what I really need is more upstream, but 128k more bandwidth isn't worth $30/mo.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By wetwareinterface on 4/11/2008 4:25:05 PM , Rating: 2
50-60 ms
wow and that's low to you?
i get 17 ms pings to la and san francisco servers (i'm in northern california) and 30-45 ms pings to chicago, dallas (yeah go can't stop gaming cs source), new york and seattle.

i'm on dsl even not even on high speed fiber to the curb dsl just old copper all the way dsl from way back when. of course i have a static ip so that makes a huge difference in latency more so than fiber vs. cable.

basicaly all i'm saying is that cable is going to have higher latency than either fiber or dsl as you have to bounce from node to node across the cable network before you even hit the internet connection of the cable provider. all those node bounces = latency added. fiber doesn't have node to node switching it just goes straight to the home center of the provider, same as dsl. as long as your rate for dsl is above 256/768 you are in the clear as far as gaming and latency. having a static ip also lowers the latency over dynamic ip's as there is no latency incursion for nat.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By MrTeal on 4/14/2008 9:44:59 PM , Rating: 3
I call BS on your pings. 30-45 ms from California to NY is simply not possible. Light roundtrip in a vacuum on the almost 10,000 km round trip is 32 ms; even if you had no processing delays and a straight piece of cable between you and NY you wouldn't get less than 45 ms since the speed of light in glass is ~66%*c.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By itzmec on 4/13/2008 12:20:33 PM , Rating: 2
check ur spec guy, no where in the country is twc offering 15mbps down and 2 up to a residential premise. unless your paying a commercial fee, your not getting those speeds.

here in ny im getting 5megs down and three up. comcast offers the highest at 7megs down 5 up. (last i read) again im talking residential.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By inperfectdarkness on 4/11/2008 9:12:44 AM , Rating: 2
time-warner/comcast/et. al.

these guys are just like geico. all media-hype and commercials--very little substance. if they cut their advertising budget by 4/5ths, and spent that money on improving services/infrastructure; they'd be able to offer much better things than they offer currently.

speedboost my ass. i need more Mbps, not smoke & mirrors.


RE: FIOS KIller ROFL
By Spivonious on 4/11/2008 9:36:28 AM , Rating: 2
Speedboost doubles your bandwidth for a period of time. I routinely get 10-12Mbps speeds on large downloads even though I only pay for 6Mbps.


Am I the only one
By TMV192 on 4/10/2008 10:33:12 PM , Rating: 2
that finds Cable ads, mostly Time Warner, to be more about bashing Verizon and DirecTV, often by making them look dumb or uncool ("that phone company TV"), than anything else. Regardless of what you think of the company, at least Verizon's ads are more intelligent




RE: Am I the only one
By zombiexl on 4/10/2008 11:15:18 PM , Rating: 3
Those types of ads seem to be working for apple. As the consumer IQ drops the more springer-like the ads become.


RE: Am I the only one
By melgross on 4/11/2008 8:02:34 AM , Rating: 2
Very funny.


RE: Am I the only one
By saiga6360 on 4/11/2008 11:22:55 AM , Rating: 3
It's rather sad actually.


FiOS>cable
By Rob94hawk on 4/11/2008 12:44:11 AM , Rating: 2
I dropped Cablevision for FiOS TV/Phone/internet. Best thing I ever did. Now I don't have to call Cablevision to reset my goddam box ever other month. And best of all it's cheaper.

Cable sucks. GG no rematch.




RE: FiOS>cable
By AntiM on 4/11/2008 8:31:46 AM , Rating: 2
Unless these copper wire providers stop sitting on their hind quarters and start upgrading their infrastructure, Verizon is going to swoop in and put them all out of business. Verizon is making the necessary up-front investment in fiber that will secure their future. TWC, AT&T, and Cox and others are making all the money now, obviously using their profits to buy beer,cigars, silly TV ads and to party and have a good time, while Verizon is hard at work undermining their little regional monopolies. In about 15 years, we'll all be complaining about Verizon's monopoly, but it will be one they deserve to have.


RE: FiOS>cable
By Spivonious on 4/11/2008 9:38:29 AM , Rating: 2
Does having fiber all the way to the house make a difference if the main lines are already fiber? Serious question.


RE: FiOS>cable
By Carter642 on 4/11/2008 10:06:18 AM , Rating: 2
Not yet. For the next decade at least fiber to the node w/cable to the house can handle all our connection needs.


RE: FiOS>cable
By mindless1 on 4/11/2008 9:23:41 PM , Rating: 1
If they keep operating costs lower, and charge less, Verizon may not take away as much business as you imply. Lots of interesting things may happen within 15 years like use of all that wireless spectrum soon to be available.


Odd use of resources....
By nismotigerwvu on 4/10/2008 9:58:17 PM , Rating: 5
Am I the only one who believes that Time Warner (and the other cable companies) would be better off investing the money spent on media blitzes on their backbone instead. The advertising would pretty much write itself if they could offer FIOS level internet speeds bundled with high quality HD service instead of the subpar super compressed offerings they currently slop onto the table. I may be overestimating "Joe Consumer" here though, he tends to be swayed with witty ads *sigh*




RE: Odd use of resources....
By MrSmurf on 4/10/2008 10:08:43 PM , Rating: 1
I think you are underestimating "Joe Consumer" but also the cost and legalities in replacing thousands upon thousands of miles of cabling.


RE: Odd use of resources....
By nismotigerwvu on 4/10/2008 10:21:18 PM , Rating: 2
Backbone, not cables. Fiber to the house is great and all, but the copper lines to the house can handle FAR more than we currently use them for. Take a look at cable systems in Europe, its not the lines that are the limiting factors here, its what they run to.


haha
By MrSmurf on 4/10/2008 9:59:40 PM , Rating: 2
Working for Time Warner Cable's ATG we heard all the time how TWC is going to run the phone companies out of business with digital phone. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

Now TWC is scrambling to save/keep customers, letting them sign two year contracts, offering payment plans for pasts debts, trying to bad-mouth the competition, etc.

TWC should have never drove into the phone business without thinking the phone company could dive into their business. It's good for us the consumers because it knocks prices down but it's ironic for TWC. Moreso, when AT&T releases their own VOIP which, unliked POTS, is not regulated.




RE: haha
By darkpaw on 4/11/2008 10:52:57 AM , Rating: 2
Hah, I signed a two year agreement with Comcast just to get the better rate and yet I'd happily pay the terminatino fee if Verizon would get FiOS to my building.

When FiOS arrives there will be nothing short of free service forever (yah right) that would keep me from switching. Problem is, our apartment building is so old, I don't think they'll be getting to it soon.


RE: haha
By AlphaVirus on 4/11/2008 1:30:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Problem is, our apartment building is so old, I don't think they'll be getting to it soon.

Yep, this is the same problem I have. It makes me sad to know I am locked into either ATT, Roadrunner, and sometimes TVMax. Especially with apartments forcing you to pick 1 of the 3.

I hope Verizon can make all the appropriate pushing to get all over the continent. I just hate the contracts setup that currently block them from certain markets.


And..?
By Quiescent on 4/10/2008 9:40:33 PM , Rating: 2
I see false advertisements all the time. Cox Communications and AT&T SBC Yahoo is what I think of. The ADSL company is not an asshat like Cox, but Cox has ads about themselves every other commercial, and they claim their speeds are up to 10x faster than ADSL. Thing is: not for the price. Yeah, sure your 12mbit cox connection is 2x faster than the cheapo 6mbit connection, but so what? It's cheaper. It's just as reliable, if you're in an area with upgraded phone cables, and it's great for having higher internet speeds if your poor.

My parents are paying $25 a month for a 256k up and down connection. For $25 you could probably get around 3mbit connection, which my parents pay $45 for. Yeah, sure it's ADSL. You're bound to a contract. However, it's still cheaper.

On subject: That is the worse false advertising I have ever seen. FIOS is obviously faster than Cable. You're a cable company, Time Warner, not an all fiber optic. You just don't want us tech savvy people dropping your crappy internet connection for something better!




Cablevision
By blppt on 4/11/2008 7:51:15 AM , Rating: 2
I really dont have any complaints about Optimum Online, but their new ad responding to FIOS ads about upload speed is filled with blantant lies.

Although they never specifically mention the words "DSL" or "FIOS" in the ads, choosing instead to call it "Phone Company High Speed", the spokesman mocks Verizon's claim that their upload speeds are superior (FIOS is superior, my cable service tops out at 2 megabit up, 15 down). THEN he goes on to claim that optimum's UPLOAD speeds are up to 5 times faster than "Phone Company Highspeed".

All of those claims would be true IF the ad in question from Verizon making those claims was about DSL service, which it was not. There was never any ad from verizon about DSL claiming it to be faster at anything than Cable shown in this area. Only the FIOS commercials did so.

Then again, I suppose I'm not shocked anything the skunks who singlehandedly ruined the Knicks do anymore.




Oh the irony
By AlexWade on 4/11/2008 8:12:23 AM , Rating: 2
CNet just had a piece where Verizon was using false advertising themselves. CNet had a review of FiOS, but Verizon did not quote it right. Those in glass houses better not throw stones.

Not that I like Time Warner. The sooner Time Warner dies, the better off we'll be.




Wrong AD
By joker380 on 4/11/2008 9:39:03 AM , Rating: 2
First time i saw that AD i was like this is BS why isn't Verizon suing them. And finally they do. I thing she should be forced to put out a AD that their Fiber comes to the Node not to the HOUSE. Or Verizon should put out the AD for them LOLZZZ.




TWC
By kingcarcas on 4/11/2008 10:05:52 AM , Rating: 2
It is BS, but i've been happy with TWC for over a year now. We suffered with 300/100kbps DSL for many years because we lived too far from the Central Office. TWC finally covered our area of L.A. in 2006 IIRC so now we're enjoying 10/1Mbit :D Now for Verizon to hurry their butts up with the fiber, I know FiOS is already in the OC.




Comcast vs. Verizon
By Kal08 on 4/11/2008 11:49:11 AM , Rating: 2
I used to have Comcast for phone, TV and Internet and it was really expensive and the call quality wasn't always the best.

Recently they brought FiOS to my neighborhood and I decided to switch and am glad that I did.

The call quality is impeccable. It sounds just as perfect and clear as my old analog landline. With Comcast I used to get calls that sounded like they were very tinny and compressed.

The TV is no comparison, either. I find the Verizon signal to be superior to Comcast's. Consumer Reports just did a comparison of TV providers and found that Verizon really was the best. They have the least compressed digital TV signal and users are generally happy with the service.

The Internet is a lot faster with Verizon than I got with Comcast (I had 10Mb/1Mb service with Comcast and now have 20Mb/10Mb service with Verizon). I used to have my Internet access go out 2-3 times a year with Comcast and sometimes we'd be without Internet service for a week at a time. With Verizon (I've been with them for over 8 months now) and I've never had any outages at all, TV, Internet or phone.

All this and my monthly bill is a lot cheaper (~$160 with Verizon vs. $250 with Comcast).

That's not to say Verizon is perfect, but so far the worst I can say about Verizon is that it takes longer to get through to a level 1 technician than it did with Comcast. I can deal with that.

I for one am glad that there is some competition for these sorts of services. It forces the companies to keep pushing forward and keeps prices more competitive.




Comcast isn't so bad...
By callmeroy on 4/11/2008 1:07:30 PM , Rating: 2
Comcast is pretty good here in NJ, of course there HQ is a stone's throw from my house so maybe that has something to do with it.

I think their customer service sucks and their pricing is a bit expensive but as far as the actual product -- I'm definitely satisfied. My Internet is up and good speed about 90% of the time. The only horrible time was last year they were installing new lines for a development by me and for a 3 month period my Internet/Cable probably went out a dozen times, but if you exclude that period for the other 6 years I've had them only about 2 outages.

As for games (my current ones being WoW, CoD4 and Company of Heroes) I constantly get <120ms in WoW, avg 60-75ms in CoD4 and about the same in Company of Heroes (unless I use my custom VPN software that allows me to play my brother w/o relying on CoD's system at all -- then it jumps to 150-ish).

Either way in each of those games they are highly playable - I really don't notice much lag at all if any.

And that's ultimately what I care about -- (well cheaper is always good too) how is the EXPERIENCE...I don't care if you have "fancy" crap running to your house -- I just care if my perception is a fast, satisfying online experience when playing my games.




By onewhowas on 4/11/2008 4:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
Has anyone noticed that trying to access a domain on Verizon's Business FIOS service from Time Warner is slower than a dialup connection? ..Seems like throttling is occurring?

That is.
I am on Time Warner cable internet and trying to access a domain that is on Verizon FIOS (like www.westonpoker.com) takes several minutes to load. Pulling large graphics almost never come across. (And it's fine, if I use a VPN connection over Time Warner internet or using an internet connection that is not on Time Warner) The issue is specific to Time Warner and Verizon FIOS.

I'm not sure if this is Verizon or Time Warner's fault, but I doubt it's a coincidence.
Nor do I think it is legal.

opinions?




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