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Verizon's warning letter it's sending to filesharers  (Source: Verizon via CNET)
RIAA cheers Verizon's decision to cut off pirates

Judgment day has begun for pirates -- at least the ones subscribed to Verizon.  While telecoms internationally in Britain and elsewhere have for the most part vigorously opposed the music and film industry's suggestion that filesharing users be cut after three strikes, Verizon appears to be the first to have actually embraced the idea without any sort of government compulsion.

Verizon Online spokeswoman Bobbi Henson comments, "We've cut some people off.  We do reserve the right to discontinue service. But we don't throttle bandwidth like Comcast was doing. Verizon does not have bandwidth caps."

The decision is a major one as Verizon's wired and wireless broadband internet packages have over 8 million subscribers in America.  The company is likely in a tie for third place with Time Warner, and only trails Comcast and AT&T in terms of number of subscribers.

The big players like Comcast have in the past typically been content with the role of being a mostly "dumb pipe" ignoring what goes through them as long as it is not slowing their network.  Occasionally Comcast and others have argued that high-volume traffic such as peer-to-peer filesharing needs to be throttled to a lower speed to save bandwidth.

Verizon's stand is quite a departure from this mindset as it marks the first time a major U.S. telecom is looking to voluntarily police its customer's activities in mass.  Many are speculating that the Recording Industry Association of America made some sort of deal with Verizon to convince them to adopt the provision.  The RIAA, a notorious anti-piracy agency, in December 2008 announced that it was mostly discontinuing its expensive campaign of suing citizens and instead had "agreements in place" with ISPs to punish filesharers via a "graduated response".  It appears that it may have at last finalized one of those agreements.

Verizon will not reveal how many customers it has axed, though Ms. Henson claims the numbers are relatively small.  She says that the measure is working as the number of subpoenas it's now getting over P2P traffic "are isolated and not at all widespread" (of course this is likely due to the RIAA's reduced litigation campaign).

Ms. Henson also claims that scolding file sharers with warnings is working effectively.  She states, "We've found that we don't have to warn most people a second time.  Most people stop. Or they tell whoever is doing it to stop."

The warning letters were first sent out in April.  Ms. Henson says that it's likely that teenagers were to blame for a lot of the filesharing traffic and the letters revealed their activities to their parents, putting their filesharing days to an end.  She describes, "You get a teenager doing it, and the parent gets the e-mail, and they tell them to cut it out."

The process goes like this -- copyright holders (RIAA, MPAA) monitor user traffic online and identify IPs that are on Verizon's network.  They then get a court order -- basically a formality -- telling Verizon to hand over the user's contact info.  Verizon then sends a warning to the customer.

Of course one major question is whether Ms. Henson's conclusions about efficacy of the warnings are true at all, considering other factors that may be at play.  It's relatively easy to adopt IP-masking technology when filesharing -- warned customers may be wising up.  It is also possible that some of the filesharers switched to a different provider over anger about Verizon's network policing.

Still, her claims do appear to hold true at least in some cases.  States one CNET reader, "[I'm] stopping cold turkey.  With Netflix at $10 a month, it's not worth it for me to risk a possible big fine. I'm going legit."



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Clarification from Verizon
By BobbiVZ on 1/21/2010 9:30:02 AM , Rating: 6
This is Bobbi Henson from Verizon with some clarification on this story.

We have had a copyright notice and education program in place for some time now and communicated it to our customers and the public on our Web site back in April 2009. This is not an automatic ‘three strikes’ graduated response program. This program has been effective in reducing instances of repeat notices and has not resulted in the termination of any Verizon customer’s service.

The intent of the program is to educate customers and give them every opportunity to take action to address notices from content owners that their Internet connection may have been used to download or share content in violation of copyright laws. Our goal is to protect our customers’ privacy and due process rights while recognizing the importance of copyright protection and acquiring content legally.

We believe our program strikes a reasonable approach and is working very well.




RE: Clarification from Verizon
By StevoLincolnite on 1/21/2010 9:41:39 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
to take action to address notices from content owners that their Internet connection may have been used to download or share content in violation of copyright laws.


So essentially... Your not going to be disconnecting users from a mere "allegation" without proof?
You know spoofing an I.P address is a relatively simple process, or a VPN could have been in play, or heck someone is downloading off your connection via wireless.

quote:
This program has been effective in reducing instances of repeat notices and has not resulted in the termination of any Verizon customer’s service.


So... This quote from Dailytech is a lie? (Which coincidentally you said?)

quote:
"We've cut some people off. We do reserve the right to discontinue service. But we don't throttle bandwidth like Comcast was doing. Verizon does not have bandwidth caps."


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By JasonMick (blog) on 1/21/2010 9:56:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So... This quote from Dailytech is a lie? (Which coincidentally you said?)


Just a note, that quote was originally from the linked CNET article. I assume it's correct as I've received no requests for correction.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 10:32:24 AM , Rating: 3
LOL! I love how people think that DailyTech is a news website! They don't even pay attention to what they read and realize that all of these are nothing more than technology related blog posts referencing other sources - which may or may not be wrong. That doesn't mean that DailyTech is responsible for anything or should be used as a reference.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By JasonMick (blog) on 1/21/2010 10:48:55 AM , Rating: 5
DailyTech, like any news website uses comments from interviews on other sites or press releases. Even sites backed by vast media conglomerates like CNN.com or FoxNews.com oft do this.

Maybe you should read more carefully -- we've had plenty of exclusive interviews and content of late, to give a few examples:
http://www.dailytech.com/Interview+Opera+Speaks+Ab...
http://www.dailytech.com/The+Good+The+Bad+The+Ugly...
http://www.dailytech.com/AMD+to+Give+Notebooks+a+B...
http://www.dailytech.com/CES+Kicks+Out+Vendors+Who...

...to link but a few.

If you don't like the site so much, how come you're always posting on the articles? ;) I think some people just like to whine!


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Lord 666 on 1/21/2010 10:55:03 AM , Rating: 5
Hold on there skippy. You do have a well earned reputation for being sensationalist and opinionated with your writing. Not saying your articles are bad and I enjoy DT, but have to admit it has faded a bit.

When I first read that letter from Verizon to the client, its not even a legal letter or termination. When I mean legal, it is a not a Notice to Cease or Cease and Desist. Its a warning and well worded one. Your article heading differs from what is actually within that letter.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By JasonMick (blog) on 1/21/2010 11:54:23 AM , Rating: 2
As you said it's a warning letter. I never claimed it was a severance letter (read the caption -- I even say its a warning letter). I never commented on how "legally binding" the letter was either... Not sure quite what you're getting that I said otherwise...

The article title/subtitle were based on the interview comments *not* that letter...

According to the CNET interview, Verizon has been cutting off filesharing customers. Unless that interview misquotes their spokesperson, I feel the story (and connection between the letter and severances) is fairly straightforward.

I'm glad you like the articles, though! :) If I'm informed of an error, I'll correct it ASAP, so just let me know if you see something.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Lord 666 on 1/21/2010 12:16:23 PM , Rating: 4
Your title states otherwise, "Verizon Begins to Voluntarily Terminate Filesharing Customers in the U.S."

Just termination and warning are two different things. To be honest, I did not read the supporting articles because the letter from Verizon pretty much sums up what is going on.

Thank you for the response.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By geddarkstorm on 1/21/2010 12:53:56 PM , Rating: 2
It was the interview with the Verizon spokesman, which stated that filesharers were being terminated (CNET could have gotten it wrong). The letter is a prior to termination event; one of those "see, we told you so" to protect from liability. Didn't you read his reply, or the DT article?


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By quiksilvr on 1/25/2010 5:02:37 PM , Rating: 2
His title? Look at the picture. That sums up sensationalist.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 11:22:58 AM , Rating: 3
I don't mean that EVERYTHING is not from any DailyTech interview. I mean that most (99.9%) are from other referenced websites.

You linked to an interview with a barely used web browser developer and 3 links that are opinionated CES posts from yourself. That's not exactly broadening out as a resource. You need to go out and dig in the dirt yourself like many AP reporters do in Iraq/Afghanistan.

Don't take it as an insult. I've been following DailyTech since it started. It started out as a side news website from AnandTech and is now nothing more than a news posting blog that 99.9% of the time points to other websites for reference.

I am glad that someone is going out there to find technology related articles though. I sure wouldn't have the free time to do it so thanks for your hard work!


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By eyebeeemmpawn on 1/21/2010 10:56:34 AM , Rating: 2
lol, cause "news" sources are all so highly regarded these days...


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/10, Rating: -1
RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Reclaimer77 on 1/21/2010 12:23:04 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
All news will be opinionated. It depends on whose opinion you trust. I refuse to visit Foxnews.com or even trust them as a news resource because of their Republican bias.


Every other news source has a strict Liberal bias though. But I don't see you refusing to visit them ? Some don't even pretend to hide it, like MSNBC, which has become a propaganda arm of Obama and the Democratic party.

We are bombarded everyday, from multiple fronts, with Liberal and Democrat bias. On our radios, TV's, newspapers and magazines. Fox News comes along and doesn't mimic the same crap, and everyone acts like they are so far to the right. It's only because of the extreme leftist view of everything else out there that gives peoples this opinion.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By twhittet on 1/21/10, Rating: 0
RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jimhsu on 1/21/2010 3:59:39 PM , Rating: 2
When you get a news source that is accused of both liberal and conservative bias (eg CNN), you know that it is most probably moderate. That's my rule.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Oregonian2 on 1/21/2010 6:16:55 PM , Rating: 2
I have NEVER seen CNN "accused" of having a conservative bias. PBS did for a very short time with a new head honcho who was gotten rid of quickly.

Fox has been called conservative for sure, but usually by those on the far left where even the middle is "far right". And indeed they are conservative in terms of their "shows" (as opposed to "news"). In terms of their "Fox news contributors" who do analysis and the like, mass quantities of those are far left folk (as well as having those on the right). As in "balanced" (radical).

Had Fox running in the "background" the other day and getting tired of the continuous Haiti coverage only then to see a report that Fox was being accused of not covering Haiti enough and ignoring that going on there. Good grief.

A lot of "ratings politics" going on I think.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jrb531 on 1/21/2010 6:38:06 PM , Rating: 2
Truth be told I do not need any "rich" Democrats or "rich" Republicans telling be how to think!

BOTH control the media and play everyone off against each other to keep us fighting each other while both sides steal the store.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Reclaimer77 on 1/21/2010 6:47:59 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Anyone who's not Liberal is instantly labeled as being "far right".


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By room200 on 1/21/2010 6:17:06 PM , Rating: 3
Oh really, do you mean liberal outlets like, National Review, The Weekly Standard, The American Spectator, Drudge Report? Or figures like Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, AnnCoulter, Pat Buchanan, Cal Thomas, George Will, Michelle Malkin. Conservative owned Clear Channel Communication, ALL Christian Media outlets, Fox News, Christian Broadcasting Network, The Inspiration Network, Regnery Publishing, Sentinel, Spence Publishing,
Crown Forum, David Brooks, Dinesh D'Souza, David Horowitz,
Ben Stein, David Frum, Karl Rove, The Cheneys, Think tanks like American Enterprise Institute,CATO Institute, Heritage Foundation conservative owned corporations like (Disney, CBS Corporation, News Corporation, TimeWarner, and General Electric) (who generally control MOST of media), Rupert Murdoch, Jon Stossel, Wal-Mart, and thousands of others I could name. You mean THOSE liberal biases?


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By kyleb2112 on 1/21/2010 8:15:01 PM , Rating: 2
Nice list, now do one for the leftist media. But that would set a record for longest post on DT. And you wouldn't even have to fake it by padding your list with individual people like you did above, or make false claims like saying notoriously liberal GE is a conservative company.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By room200 on 1/22/2010 8:36:17 AM , Rating: 1
Nothing is "padded". The fact is that GE is a conservative owned corporation. These types of corporations will not allow ANYTHING that goes agaist their own best interests. Look up the members of this corporation, follow the money, and you'll see to whom they donate and allow on their airwaves. They control the directtion of conversation, and the only way other voices are allowed that go against their best interests is when those voices are making them tons of money.

That "liberal media bias" is a strategy drummed up by republicans in the early 90s. Do a little research, you'll be surprised. It's no different that their race-based "southern strategy".


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By lmclaurin on 1/22/2010 3:47:54 PM , Rating: 2
I hear the accusation of Liberal media, but it's always some vague/ambiguous reference. How about YOUR list? Just saying it means nothing and that you simply don't have a way of defending your accusation.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By MrBungle123 on 1/22/2010 11:36:26 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
conservative owned corporations like (... General Electric)


GE conservative? lol.

just because you can make a long list of names doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

GE owns NBC, their CEO Jeffery Immelt is on Obama's Economic Advisory Board... and you think GE is conservative? Don't you think its a little odd that a conservative company would be running both a leftist propaganda outlet like MSNBC AND have thier CEO appointed to be an advisor to Obama one of the most if not the most left wing politician in American history?

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/173718-Im...


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By wavebossa on 1/22/2010 2:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
Amazing post.

But really, are we really arguing which way major media swings?

Yes the majority of Americans are socially conservative (pro-life, taxes, defense budget, no gay marriage, etc), but if anyone thinks the MEDIA follows suit... you are out of your mind.

I think some ppl are just blind... and deaf maybe too?


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By MrBungle123 on 1/24/2010 1:02:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
are we really arguing which way major media swings?


no, not really, just calling people out when they pretend to know what they're talking about and post nonsense.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By lmclaurin on 1/22/2010 3:45:49 PM , Rating: 2
Fox News comes along and doesn't mimic the same crap, and everyone acts like they are so far to the right.

"Acts like"? LOL


By cruisin3style on 1/23/2010 3:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
I haven't personally ever actually seen shows on MSNBC or Fox News themselves, just many many clips of Fox News and several from MSNBC as well.

If MSNBC has become Obama's propoganda arm, it was only to match Fox News' right wing audacity that came to be sometime during the Bush administration. If you do not know what I am talking about you are either happy to hear what you accuse MSNBC of from Fox News, or you are unaware of what things were like from a Democrat's point of view on Fox News under the Bush Administration. It is a bitter medicine, yours: frustrating and full of divisive BS.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By theapparition on 1/21/2010 11:55:35 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
You know spoofing an I.P address is a relatively simple process, or a VPN could have been in play, or heck someone is downloading off your connection via wireless .

Damn right.
FIOS default wireless encryption is WEP!!!!!!!! Yes, you see that right, WEP. They are also thoughtful enough to put a tag with the encryption password right on the side of the modem.

WEP takes all of miliseconds to hack. First thing I did was to change the settings on the router.

Also, this is not a surprising move by them since they also killed all binary newgroups a year ago for that exact same reason.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Reclaimer77 on 1/21/2010 12:29:07 PM , Rating: 2
Ok let's be honest here. I'm a self confessed 'pirate', by the way.

But yeah, claiming your IP was "spoofed" and that it really wasn't you downloading all of those movies and albums isn't going to hold up.

And most ISP's use WEP as default encryption because of setup and compatability issues. It's up to the user to secure his wireless connection after it's been set up.

I find this news very unsettling though, as I was looking forward to getting FIOS if it ever came to my area. I have embraced the digital age and I can't see myself using an ISP that's in bed with the RIAA and their draconian attempts to squeeze every penny they can out of us.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Lord 666 on 1/21/2010 2:37:05 PM , Rating: 2
Whats worse is the FiOS Actiontec Rev E router ENCOURAGES use of WEP.

Almost everyone in my neighborhood has FiOS; I can tell by their default SSID and kept on broadcast. Never bothered to crack their WEP keys though.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Brainonska511 on 1/21/2010 3:11:42 PM , Rating: 2
What's wrong with putting the encryption password on the side of the modem? It's not like someone stealing the wireless connection is first going to break into your house.

The bigger issue is not that it is WEP by default, but my Verizon router/modem is WEP only. I ended up turning off the wireless on the modem and using a separate router setup as a WPA encrypted access point.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Oregonian2 on 1/21/2010 6:30:06 PM , Rating: 2
Yours must be a pretty old one. The Actiontec that came with my FiOS a couple years ago could be set to all the latest and greatest stuff (although I did replace it fairly quickly with a D-Link one so I could use 'N' wireless rather than 'G').

That brings up another thing. One can just change the router to one's own, they're not spendy. Then use Verizon's as backup. Might have to change the MAC address to match (I did, but didn't check first to see if it was required).

The problem with the "default" isn't with Verizon I think, it's just the user not using that which is available.

At least they're not defaulting to no encryption at all which I vaguely recall was standard a long time ago when wireless was relatively new.


By theapparition on 1/22/2010 10:37:13 AM , Rating: 2
The poster above may not have FIOS, only stated that his Verizon router didn't have anything but WEP. It could very well be his DSL router.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Targon on 1/21/2010 9:41:48 AM , Rating: 3
So, if people find that Verizon adds random "fees" to bills, can those customers file a lawsuit charging Verizon with illegal activity and shut down such activity for ALL users? How about charging users for accidentally hitting a web button on their browser and getting a bandwidth fee, should they have to spend time on hold to get the charges removed?

It is one thing to stop people from using the network for illegal activity, but what about people using peer to peer legally? Games like Dungeons and Dragons Online actually use peer to peer for updates, will Verizon in the future decide that since it is peer to peer usage, so is against the rules and grounds for termination of service? The TONE Verizon sets with these sorts of things is why I and many others dislike Verizon as a company.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By StevoLincolnite on 1/21/2010 9:51:04 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
but what about people using peer to peer legally?


This is the interesting part... A 3rd party like the RIAA or MPAA or whatever they call themselves these days, will send Verizon an "Allegation" letter of the I.P address caught in the infringement, essentially legal stuff would pass through this web.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By UNCjigga on 1/21/2010 11:44:26 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. Legal P2P does not apply for these warnings. The best part is, unlike with Comcast, you can actually download Linux distros galore and not have your bandwidth capped.

To be honest, I see no issue with Verizon's approach, provided that customers are given ample notices/warnings, with specific instances of files and dates/times in question (which the letter seems to provide.) It could be better, however, if Verizon provided recommended steps for lay consumers on securing their Internet connection from unauthorized access, or legitimate alternatives for downloading/accessing content.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Reclaimer77 on 1/21/2010 3:15:58 PM , Rating: 1
I love all you guys who act like so many people are out there downloading dozens of Linux distros a month or something. Lol come on.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By bmheiar on 1/22/2010 9:20:20 AM , Rating: 2
I love it when others automatically assume, rush to judgement, criticize, label everyone that use P2P software as pirates, thieves, common lowlife scum criminals, terrorists.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By inperfectdarkness on 1/21/10, Rating: -1
RE: Clarification from Verizon
By IdBuRnS on 1/21/2010 9:57:19 AM , Rating: 2
Funny, I received 2 letters from Cox warning me to stop filesharing.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By The0ne on 1/21/2010 10:11:02 AM , Rating: 2
I never received any letters or notice(s) but they did either reduce or cut my connection entirely if they "think" I was filesharing. Or and they even capped me at 10GB/month well...twice. Streaming was 100% no go.

I called tech support and got the usual responses,

1. You are using too much bandwidth
2. You are using filesharing
3. You are downloading too much
4. and a few times talking to a clueless person from tech

Fck Cox here in San Diego. I hope no one had to go through what I have.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By HrilL on 1/21/2010 11:44:18 AM , Rating: 1
I used to have problems with them like you are talking about.

I got a letter once too but it was because my brothers computer got hacked and was being used as a proxy to hack a different company. This was a bitch to get sorted.

Oh I got a letter for sharing a movie once too but it wasn't even the movie they claimed it to be. It only had the same name Gladiator but had nothing to do with the same movie and I don't believe it was even covered by copyright. It was something my friend made in film. They said they would turn my internet off in 48 hours if I didn't take it down. So I changed the name.

Cox would cut my connection if I uploaded a lot. Their Acceptable usage policy that isn't really enforced says 10GB upload bandwidth. They also throttled my torrent traffic a few times. I called and complained. Never talk to a level 1 support line tech they can't do anything. Just be stern and say you need a level 2 because you don't need help restarting your modem. Anyway they dodged the issue and sent a field tech out. Of course nothing was wrong physically. I was like I told them from the start that they are sending reset packets to my connections. They would reset my IRC connections and this was pissing me off. So he called them and got them to do something and all of a sudden my connection was working as if it was not be molested by them. I think it is just cheaper for them to turn off their management bullshit then having a tech come out and do nothing but waste 2 hours of time. That cost them about 2 months worth of what I pay them.

From what I've found they don't want to you to upload but don't really care how much you download. I've got no complains going over a TB in a month. I guess this is because sending data onto a peer cost them money and taking data off a peer costs nothing or less.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By MrBlastman on 1/21/2010 10:52:18 AM , Rating: 2
What a bunch of Cox. ;)


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By ViRGE on 1/21/2010 9:56:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
We have had a copyright notice and education program in place for some time now and communicated it to our customers and the public on our Web site back in April 2009. This is not an automatic ‘three strikes’ graduated response program. This program has been effective in reducing instances of repeat notices and has not resulted in the termination of any Verizon customer’s service.
Bolded the important bits, the rest of this story is really immaterial since no one has gotten the boot.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By superflex on 1/21/10, Rating: 0
RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 10:48:01 AM , Rating: 4
When a Linux distro live CD is 700MB and someone downloads 500GB over bittorrent every month it's not exactly something you can disagree with. Then there is your browsing history that your ISP can see. Searching for 1080p BluRay rips, PC game ISO files, etc? Oh...yeah.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By HrilL on 1/21/2010 11:57:14 AM , Rating: 2
We like to use this thing called SSL. Use a https proxy or just you tor to browse. My ISP knows nothing of what I do now a days unless they unencrypted my traffic in which case they would be breaking the law.

As for linux distros you could download quite a bits worth a bandwidth with those some people want the daily builds and want to share those with others as well. What if you're also a Microsoft partner and need to download their software as well? Lot of ways to consume a lot of bandwidth in legal ways. Streaming movies also consumes quite a bit. Even some streaming services use p2p now so they can offer better bitrates and not have to pay extreme server cost.

Plus if you look hard enough you can get just about anything you can find on bittorrent without using bittorrent to get it. We got IRC, Newsgroups, Sharing sites, FTP... No need to worry about them spying on p2p traffic when you don't have to use it. Sure they might see you download 500GB worth of data but they've got no idea what it is and that is the way it should be.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/22/2010 9:00:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
We like to use this thing called SSL. Use a https proxy or just you tor to browse. My ISP knows nothing of what I do now a days unless they unencrypted my traffic in which case they would be breaking the law.


I doubt that your ISP is going to randomly look at your internet traffic. It would usually require a court order, which would obviously not be against any law.

quote:
As for linux distros you could download quite a bits worth a bandwidth with those some people want the daily builds and want to share those with others as well. What if you're also a Microsoft partner and need to download their software as well? Lot of ways to consume a lot of bandwidth in legal ways. Streaming movies also consumes quite a bit. Even some streaming services use p2p now so they can offer better bitrates and not have to pay extreme server cost.


Sharing a downloaded distro is upload bandwidth and not download.

Microsoft doesn't use P2P to distribute it's software.

Streaming movies (YouTube, Netflix, Hulu) doesn't use P2P. The only ones that do are the illegal utilities AFAIK, unless you can prove otherwise.

quote:
Plus if you look hard enough you can get just about anything you can find on bittorrent without using bittorrent to get it. We got IRC, Newsgroups, Sharing sites, FTP... No need to worry about them spying on p2p traffic when you don't have to use it. Sure they might see you download 500GB worth of data but they've got no idea what it is and that is the way it should be.


I am well aware of the available means such as IRC, newsgroups and file hosting websites (such as MegaUpload, RapidShare, etc). I doubt that the RIAA even looks at those. We're talking about P2P here and the excuse from some that this magical bandwidth use is due to Linux distro downloading. Please pay attention.


By StevoLincolnite on 1/22/2010 12:14:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sharing a downloaded distro is upload bandwidth and not download. Microsoft doesn't use P2P to distribute it's software. Streaming movies (YouTube, Netflix, Hulu) doesn't use P2P. The only ones that do are the illegal utilities AFAIK, unless you can prove otherwise.


Everything you download will result in some upload bandwidth being used.

Some uses of P2P - Patching systems (Like WoW), Mininova has gone legal only etc.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Golgatha on 1/21/2010 10:11:15 AM , Rating: 2
IMO, if Verizon has entered into an agreement with the RIAA to provide a graduated response to its customers when learning of infringing activities, then I believe Verizon should loose its right to safe harbor and become responsible for all traffic going across its network. It's only fair since you're skirting around the well established and capable legal system that's already in place to punish copyright infringers.

Regardless, if Verizon ever comes to my area, I am no longer interested in your services regardless of speed or price. Previously, I would've been very interested and would've most likely tried Verizon's service given the speeds available for fiber to the premises.

I want a dumb pipe so that my Skype VOIP never gets throttled in favor of the ISP's service, my PSN and XBox Live services never get throttled in favor of the ISP's VOD services, and for the occasional Bittorrent download (hint...Linux, game patches, etc).


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Golgatha on 1/21/2010 10:15:17 AM , Rating: 2
I have never understood the business case for a graduated response either. The police work you're doing for the RIAA is an overhead cost and pissing off potential or current customers doesn't seem like a bright idea either. Where's the profit motivator, or is Verizon just doing this out of the goodness of their heart?


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By UNCjigga on 1/21/2010 11:50:22 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I think the RIAA and MPAA have wised up to the fact that targeting individual filesharers to "make examples of them" is a lost cause, and only gets them more negative press. Going after ISPs that are billion-dollar companies could be a lot more lucrative. So you can understand Verizon's willingness to participate in "policing" if it means they can avoid the RIAA's/MPAA's/Time Warner's/Viacom's collective wrath!


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 10:57:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
...and for the occasional Bittorrent download (hint...Linux, game patches, etc).


You do realize that your ISP can see all of your browsing history, right? Regarding Linux distros and game patches, try HTTP or FTP instead.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By mindless1 on 1/22/2010 12:58:17 AM , Rating: 2
No they can't, they have IP lists that they could resolve but that's not the same at all as "browsing history".


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By jonmcc33 on 1/22/2010 9:22:28 AM , Rating: 2
If that's what you think. You do not browse the internet via IP. You browse it via HTTP Port 80.

If there's a court order then they can catch EVERYTHING that you request via HTTP.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By mindless1 on 1/25/2010 2:53:17 PM , Rating: 2
You wrote "if there's a court order" THEN THEY CAN DO...

That's quite different from what actually happens, which is at most they have IP:port resolved to IP:port, THEN someone has to get a court order to start monitoring with more detail, they can't go backwards and say you looked at picture xyz 4 months before a court order for example, though they could do the obvious DNS to tell you surfed to http://childpron.com before then.


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By frobizzle on 1/21/2010 10:17:47 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
This is Bobbi Henson from Verizon with some clarification on this story.

Troll!


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By DigitalFreak on 1/21/2010 10:21:10 AM , Rating: 2
That post is correct douche bag.

She's already been contacted directly by broadbandreports.com and said the exact same thing - http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Verizon-Is-NOT-...


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Vagisil on 1/21/2010 8:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
I don't feel this program does strike a reasonable approach.

By bending to the wishes of the RIAA verizon is setting a trend where ISPs are liable and incur further costs that are passed on to your customers.

Then there is also no real proof the user is responsible, verizon may not be cutting them off at this moment but is there a process to disprove the accusation which is obviously a stain on the customers account?


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By Cache on 1/22/2010 10:45:21 AM , Rating: 2
I find it interesting that Verizon is looking to monitor for movies and music so vigorously, while permitting all manner of child pornography to wash through their network without so much as the slightest regard to stopping it.

Then again, there's no money to be made in stopping the exploitation of children, is there, Bobbi?


RE: Clarification from Verizon
By WUMINJUN on 1/24/2010 7:36:15 PM , Rating: 2


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First of all...
By Motoman on 1/21/2010 9:28:40 AM , Rating: 2
...shame on you Verizon. I dislike you.

But more importantly, who is the hottie in the photo and what show is that from?




RE: First of all...
By dflynchimp on 1/21/2010 9:31:58 AM , Rating: 2
Kristianna Loken as the T-X (Terminatrix) in Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines. It's a movie (came out in 2003)


RE: First of all...
By piroroadkill on 1/21/2010 9:33:11 AM , Rating: 2
Looks like Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, the T-X. Kristanna Loken.


RE: First of all...
By Sunbird on 1/21/2010 9:36:29 AM , Rating: 2
She is the Terminatrix from Terminator 3


RE: First of all...
By Motoman on 1/21/2010 9:40:43 AM , Rating: 2
hmmm...I wonder if that's the Terminatrix from T3.

;)

Would explain it, as I never saw that one. Maybe I will now.


RE: First of all...
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 11:02:55 AM , Rating: 2
It's pretty good. Kristanna Loken is hot in it and doesn't talk much, which is good because the only time a woman should open her mouth is when she is on her knees. JK


RE: First of all...
By Natfly on 1/21/2010 3:10:31 PM , Rating: 2
Or when they are asking what you want for dinner?


RE: First of all...
By The0ne on 1/21/2010 10:12:38 AM , Rating: 2
You honestly didn't know? O.o


RE: First of all...
By Motoman on 1/21/2010 10:38:43 AM , Rating: 2
Nope. Never saw that one. T1 and T2 I saw...never got around to T3.


RE: First of all...
By Vagisil on 1/21/2010 8:15:48 PM , Rating: 2
She gets them out but not in the british version


So...
By smackababy on 1/21/2010 9:26:17 AM , Rating: 3
They leave it up to RIAA and MPAA to decide which users are sharing "bad" files. Sounds like they are letting someone else decide what is "wrong" over their networks.

I don't have Verizon, nor will I ever now.




RE: So...
By Cheapshot on 1/21/2010 9:28:54 AM , Rating: 2
If Comcast did this it would essentially remove the need to use my computer. So much for going to FIOS when it comes to my area.


RE: So...
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 11:13:11 AM , Rating: 2
Well, when the RIAA hosts a file and tools download it from them then they have your IP address to take to your ISP. Your ISP won't have the resources to monitor every person for what they are using traffic for. That is why most smart people use private trackers instead. The RIAA cannot track private bittorrent traffic.

The funny part is that when one goes down, 10 more private trackers go up.


RE: So...
By smackababy on 1/21/2010 1:14:34 PM , Rating: 2
So, the RIAA hosts files and says basically "Come take one free" and nobody has objected to this yet? Entrapment much? A cop cannot give you the go ahead to speed and then give you a ticket for it. At least not legally.


RE: So...
By mindless1 on 1/22/2010 1:07:24 AM , Rating: 2
1) The RIAA has no need to host any files, they can simply connect to a public tracker to pull the IP #s.

2) Your ISP doesn't need to monitor everything that every person does, many of them do monitor where the bandwidth is going to address those small % of customers using a disproportionate amount of bandwidth. For example, Comcast.

3) The RIAA can certainly track private traffic. Just like any client in a P2P swarm, the RIAA client can get those IP #s. If you want to claim these trackers need invites, how hard is that to get REALLY? If you want to claim they block the RIAA IP #s, how hard is it to mask your client IP when all you have to do all day is be paid to collect the data?

This is all pretty low-tech stuff to do, and having it automated on computers takes most of the work out of it.


RE: So...
By jonmcc33 on 1/22/2010 9:51:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The RIAA has no need to host any files, they can simply connect to a public tracker to pull the IP #s.


You are correct. Now that I recall, the only files that the RIAA would put out on P2P were fake files. They would be titled some new artist song but the file was garbage and played loud, annoying static.

quote:
If you want to claim these trackers need invites, how hard is that to get REALLY?


It depends. I have been trying for years to get onto HDBits. They canceled all invites because people were selling them. There are just so many private trackers that it would be quite a waste of effort for the RIAA to pursue. Many of the smarter private trackers have legal info attached to the EULA when creating an account, such as "by creating this account you verify that you are not employed by the RIAA/MPAA nor working for them" etc. So it sort of snubs any legal options.

I have not heard of the RIAA going after any private trackers either. PirateBay and MiniNova are the only ones I have seen shut down and they were public.

People downloading copyrighted files just get threats from their ISP to shut off their internet connection. Nobody is getting sued anymore. So there isn't anymore fear to be honest.


RE: So...
By mindless1 on 1/25/2010 2:57:08 PM , Rating: 2
I think you mean sued by RIAA. There's nothing stopping, nor any implied let alone stated guarantee, that some other content holder won't some day decide to collect IP addresses off a tracker and get the court orders.

Also, back to what some believe the RIAA has decided, there's nothing legally binding in their statement that keeps them from changing their minds, and using any info collected between when they might have made a similar statement and when they might change their minds.

I'm not trying to defend RIAA, other content holders, OR those doing the filesharing, just clarifying a few points. You can't ever assume safety when doing something illegal even if there weren't such severe and underhanded measures taken in many instances.


What now?
By judasmachine on 1/21/2010 9:17:16 AM , Rating: 2
How else are folks going to use up all that FIOS bandwidth?




RE: What now?
By xNIBx on 1/21/2010 9:26:36 AM , Rating: 2
1080p live streaming films/tv.


RE: What now?
By StevoLincolnite on 1/21/2010 9:34:57 AM , Rating: 3
... And lots and lots of pr0n!


RE: What now?
By jonmcc33 on 1/21/2010 11:08:34 AM , Rating: 1
Hosting FTP (think of IRC bots) for piracy instead.


RE: What now?
By HrilL on 1/21/2010 12:04:15 PM , Rating: 2
Most of those are rooted boxes. I don't know why would would pay money to help people pirate things but it happens none the less. I do guess it is still cheaper than paying the content providers.


RE: What now?
By Kurz on 1/21/2010 8:37:55 PM , Rating: 2
I guess I don't want FIOS any longer.
Cox Communications FTW


Common Carrier Status
By NullSubroutine on 1/21/2010 9:35:33 AM , Rating: 3
I for one am looking forward to Verizon's common carrier status being revoked. No greater interference with one's connection than being terminated.




RE: Common Carrier Status
By Oregonian2 on 1/21/2010 6:38:37 PM , Rating: 2
That definitely would increase the customer cutoffs by many orders of magnitude! It's the common carrier status that makes them not responsible for content. Get rid of that, making Verizon responsible for content sent by their customers, and maybe half of their customers will be cut off (particularly after reviewing everybody's email -- something they'd be responsible for as well).


.
By StevoLincolnite on 1/21/2010 9:33:47 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Ms. Henson also claims that scolding file sharers with warnings is working effectively. She states, "We've found that we don't have to warn most people a second time. Most people stop. Or they tell whoever is doing it to stop."


Not here they don't, some ISP's have been sending out "Warning letters" to there customers who are doing illegal file sharing, however those users keep downloading...
Or churn to another provider which doesn't do so. (Possibly why iiNet/Westnet are in the mess they are in now, although Telstra and Optus sit on there rhetorical fat assess and do nothing also.)

If Verizon starts cutting users off, and it's a relatively large number, then that will become "Word of mouth", and I doubt after the expensive advertising campaign against AT&T that they would want there image tarnished significantly.

There is an ISP in Australia called "Exetel" which actually cuts it's users off if they cost the company to much money.
Even if you ring customer support to many times, they WILL tell you to go to another provider, they literally give the customer a cut off period, and they are then forced to look elsewhere, you can't fight it either, how they are still in business is beyond me personally.

But the point is, the "Pirates" are actually rather computer literate (Or maybe... The process has become to easy? But I don't see computer illiterate people working out how to mount images, un-raring etc'), by cutting that similar demographic off, they will then influence friends and family's broadband options, and the domino effect comes into play.

Verizon, don't go down this road... If you are having congestion issues, upgrade your network, don't take the cheap and easy way out.




This is the way it should have been
By dgingeri on 1/21/2010 10:51:18 AM , Rating: 2
This is what should have happened a long time ago, instead of that stupid DMCA and all the lawsuits against innocent people. (You know there were plenty of innocent people involved in those RIAA lawsuits.) At least someone in the RIAA seems to have pulled their brain out of the (lawsuit) meat grinder and started using it correctly.




By killerb255 on 1/21/2010 4:49:24 PM , Rating: 2
...and of course you got rated down because your post (perfectly valid at that) spoke in favor of an anti-piracy group in some way, shape, or form...


Bobby Henson
By TETRONG on 1/21/2010 4:45:55 PM , Rating: 2
You're just supposed to transfer data-not watch and police information. Do you like privacy?
Your company never got to be the size that it is with these practices. Who would of paid for your services knowing that you were just itching to be the lapdog of the RIAA and MPAA.
So your little kickback from them is worth everyones privacy?

Ever read 1984 as a young boy?

See you on the way down!




RE: Bobby Henson
By mindless1 on 1/22/2010 1:12:32 AM , Rating: 2
Here's what happens:

Content Owner amasses a list of IPs of those they accuse of infringing. They resolve the IP addresses to various ISPs.

They USED to get a form rubber stamped to get the John Doe info on the account from the ISP, to proceed with litigation. Now, they stop just prior to that step, but either way the ISP would've sent a letter.

So basically the ISP isn't doing much of anything different except the letter now reads "warning" instead of "your identity has been revealed to content owner xyz for possible litigation.


Oh well
By MrPoletski on 1/21/2010 9:54:34 AM , Rating: 2
bye bye Verizon, I suspect you just self terminated...




Since when does fileshareing = piracy?
By iFX on 1/21/2010 12:58:30 PM , Rating: 2
There is lots of completely legitimate P2P traffic out there. Heck, IBM releases updates via torrent these days for their mid-range systems.




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By chagrinnin on 1/21/2010 11:00:52 PM , Rating: 2
"Can I listen in on you now?"

"Can I listen in on you now?"




Do they know what you share?
By akse on 1/22/2010 5:46:58 AM , Rating: 2
So will the ISP try to find out all the packages the filesharers send? How do they know you are sharing illeagal stuff?

What if the customer has downloaded a big bunch of open source software via torrent and keeps seeding them for some weeks, can they cut you out of internet because you use the bandwidth you are paying for?

quote:
Occasionally Comcast and others have argued that high-volume traffic such as peer-to-peer filesharing needs to be throttled to a lower speed to save bandwidth.

That sounds ridiculous. If you pay for certain amount of bandwidth, why should it be saved? Of course sharing illeagal stuff isn't right, but if you do it legally sure you should be able to fully use the product you are paying for :)




By Codeman03xx on 1/21/2010 6:32:44 PM , Rating: 1
wow man they are committing cooperate suicided..




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