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Euro Ford Focus 5-door, 1.6 liter gasoline engine (42.8MPG combined), 1.8 liter diesel engine (54.3MPG combined)
When it comes to fuel efficiency, America comes up way short

When it comes to high mileage vehicles available on the U.S. market, we come up short compared to vehicles available in other countries. Recent research put forth by 40mgp.org shoes that while 113 vehicles available overseas manage to maintain a combined fuel economy rating of 40MPG or higher, only two vehicles made the list in the U.S.

The two vehicles available in the U.S. that crossed the 40MPG threshold were both gasoline-electric hybrids: the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid. In many European countries, vehicles achieve a 40MPG or higher rating by using small, ultra-efficient gasoline or diesel engines.

Research by 40mpg.org also showed that over 38 vehicles available outside of the U.S. were able to achieve 50MPG. Of those 38 models researched, 34 used "clean diesel" technology.

Other interesting tidbits brought to light include the fact that the number of vehicles achieving 40MPG or higher outside of the U.S. has risen from 86 in 2005 to 113 in 2007. Likewise, the number has decreased from five in 2005 to two in 2007 for the U.S. In addition, the number of vehicles achieving at least 35MPG outside of the U.S. has risen from 129 in 2005 to 161 in 2007. That number has fallen from nine to six in the U.S.

"We have to face the unpleasant facts here: America is needlessly losing the race to develop the best fuel-efficient technology and then deliver it to the American consumer, which wants these cars and other vehicles that would use less imported fuel and create less global-warming pollution," said Pam Solo, President of the Civil Society Institute (CSI). "The Europeans, Japanese and Chinese are already committed to far more aggressive MPG standards than we are in the United States. Congress needs to show some leadership now and insist on a 40 miles per gallon standard now - not 10 years from now when it will be too late to save Detroit from its worst impulses."

The interesting thing to note is that the vast majority of the vehicle available overseas that achieve such high mileage ratings are made by U.S.-based companies like General Motors and Ford as well as foreign automakers like Nissan, Toyota and Volkswagen – all three of which are very familiar to American buyers.

However, until these automakers are given a reason to introduce more fuel efficient models here in the U.S. (i.e. higher government-mandated fuel economy standards), we'll likely continue to see a dearth of affordable, highly fuel efficient vehicles.



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Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Shoal07 on 2/16/2007 10:45:09 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
In many European countries, vehicles achieve a 40MPG or higher rating by using small, ultra-efficient gasoline or diesel engines.


Why do American companies build gas efficient vehicles and then sell them overseas? Two reasons:
-Americans like big cars/trucks
-Americans like horsepower

Would the average American drive a car that has absolutely horrible acceleration, no trunk, and barely seats 4 moderate sized people? Unlikely. Americans are big people (and not just fat, taller and broader as well) plus we have a desire for speed. Speed and fuel-efficient are, at least right now, the opposite of each other. Congress can mandate all they want; your giant SUV that seats 7, can hold 3 picnic tables, and tow a yacht will never get 40mpg with a simple redesign. You’ll also not see these cars in Europe or most other overseas places, they simply want smaller, lighter and (as a side effect) efficient cars.

American cars stand out from the rest of the world in their style. We have an American car style that’s been built in to our culture. This isn’t going to change overnight. I know that I won’t buy a car that says “goes 0-60... eventually” on the sticker. Would you?




RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By therealnickdanger on 2/16/2007 10:57:37 AM , Rating: 2
I rated you up, but it should be noted that you can have the best of both worlds. There are several full-sized, sub-6 second German Autoban-destroyers that are capable of achieving over 35MPG. Twin-turbo diesels are extremely efficient and very powerful. The problem is that they are very expensive.

This will progress as it always has: more power, more features, more safety, more efficiency. It just takes time.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By jkostans on 2/16/2007 2:49:11 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, we're are also cheap. Cheap horsepower means cutting corners, and efficiency is on the top of the list of corners that are acceptable to cut.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Wonga on 2/16/2007 10:57:48 AM , Rating: 2
While I agree that people in Europe often like smaller cars (which of course really depends on what you want a car for), the real reason for choosing a particular vehicle is now very often down to efficiency. It isn't really a side effect at all.

Obviously people don't care about how light a car is (they aren't exactly lifting it into a parking space), but they do care about all the benefits that comes with that.

Thanks to the rises in oil costs recently, I know of several people who have ditched their high speed Jaguars and bulky Land Rovers and switched over to standard mid-range diesels which can manage 50MPG. I can only see this trend continuing as oil supplies get more strained and biofuels take over at higher price points.

Since the EU keeps moving the bar up for CO2/km, I guess cars will just keep getting more efficient and everyone will reap the benefits. Of course, that won't stop people complaining about the extra £500 on the price tag, no matter how much money they are really saving over the lifetime...


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By StevoLincolnite on 2/16/2007 11:32:55 AM , Rating: 3
Alot of People may have moved from Petrol to Effiecent Diesel based cars, Here in Australia at least the Government has released a rebate scheme on LPG conversions, So instead of people selling they're cars etc for more effiecent ones, They instead get they're cars converted to LPG gas. (I never get over Other people calling petrol gas... :P)
Not only is LPG around 50% the cost of Petrol, (Sometimes allot less if you take shopping vouchers off).
But it is also allot more clean to burn.
In my VN SS Commodore V8 1990 model, I get 570KM's on a tank of LPG, Where on duel it was 610KM's Yet when I had my Old VN Commodore, which was a V6 And petrol only I was getting on average 520KM's to a 60 litre tank. (The tanks are the same size in my old VN and the SS) So What that came down to was the Power to weight, Both Vehicles had equal weight being same model, chasis etc. (The V8 probably weighed slightly more for the much larger motor) But because you don't have to Put your foot down as hard in the V8 the motor doesn't have to rev as high to get up to its required speed, thus conserving fuel. (In my theory anyway...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_VN_Commodore

I think a better alternative to Fuel Economy is different fuels, More cleaner burning ones at that, And trying to keep about the same economy featured in cars as present.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Ringold on 2/16/2007 11:41:49 AM , Rating: 2
LPG is one of those things advanced by environmentalists (I guess) but really is impossible on a significant scale.

Why? Take a look at the natural gas market. It's price swings are downright violent. I don't trade in it (Can we say 'Amaranth'?) but I keep an eye on it and I think I saw it make an 8% swing in one day. Supply is tight, storage capacity is tiny (and always will be), and demand inflexible but also funky (spikes and troughs). Try to expand it to power even a fraction of the auto-market, and it'd only get worse. Filling up a tank on a Monday may cost you 20% more or less than on the following Wed on occasion.

It's fine for its tiny applications, but countries that want to mandate it for widespread use do so at their own risk.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Ringold on 2/16/2007 11:44:24 AM , Rating: 2
http://www.wtrg.com/daily/oilandgasspot.html

If those spot price shifts dont make you mess your pants then I don't know what would. As a consumer would you want fuel prices to double or triple in a Jan and then, say by March, be 1/3 the cost, and then by May be at a new record high?

Never will happen.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By StevoLincolnite on 2/16/2007 11:06:00 PM , Rating: 3
Price shifts on LPG? I only know about South Australian Conditions, I have never ever seen LPG more than 55-60% of the cost of Petrol. At the moment its 40% of the Price of petrol, And as long as there is a huge price difference? Who cares? Your still getting it cheaper, And the Australian Government basically gives you the LPG conversion for free.
Currently LPG is sitting on 63.9 Cents per liter. Multiply that by 3.785 which in turn is 2 dollars 41 cents a gallon.
Where as Petrol here is currently 125.9 a liter when converted into the American formats is: 4 dollars 76 cents a gallon.
LPG is readily available, Is mass produced here, Is cleaner Burning, Is almost as economical as petrol. (In most cases) And Plus its cheap. The Price has remained the same for months now, In fact a few weeks ago dropped 1 cent. (Yay).


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/18/2007 4:28:41 AM , Rating: 2
steve,
LPG is only 46 cents here in melbourne - you're getting ripped off over there in SA! :P

also did you know the the aus government is going to start introducing a new tax on LPG in '08/'09?
its going to close the margin a bit on the price difference but yes you're right about the current situation in aus.
I made a comment below about how it may not be totally suitable for the rest of the world though.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By sxr7171 on 2/18/2007 2:24:46 AM , Rating: 2
There could be ways around it, like setting up contracts that price your supply annually based on a monthly usage range that you and your supplier have agreed to. It's done with gas utilities where they price you based on anticipated use patterns. It's still a lot of hassle for a consumer to commit to a minimum annual usage and usage that doesn't vary too much month to month. I'm sure there'd be penalties for using too much gas in January for example. Anyhow, your basic point stands in that a wholesale switch to gas would really drive prices up and increase volatility. But the energy trading firms love to make money handling volatility.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/16/2007 5:13:29 PM , Rating: 2
here in australia our market/demand is so low, LPG is a viable alternative - but yes your right in that it is not viable as a world solution.

but the OP was just highlighting that in order for things to change technology should be developed on both a small scale and ALSO a paradigm shifting scale.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By ZoZo on 2/16/2007 10:58:15 AM , Rating: 2
Well then I guess that the Americans should stop living so luxuriously, stop eating so much, and start thinking about the environment more than their bulging stomachs and pompous lifestyle. Geez...


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By therealnickdanger on 2/16/2007 12:03:50 PM , Rating: 1
No thanks. I've seen how the rest of the world lives and I've worked damn hard to live how I live. I will always prefer to have the freedom to make that choice for myself without undue government regulation driving up costs and stifling innovation.

A life of excess can be unhealthy, but removing the option would be worse for everyone.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By lucyfek on 2/16/2007 12:43:03 PM , Rating: 4
just to remind you that while your parents "worked damn hard to live how I live", we just waste the resources and live on credit (aka 700+ billion trade gap just for last year alone). we'd better lower our insane apetite or someone else does it for us (on less favorable conditions).
it always hurts to fall.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By mindless1 on 2/16/2007 8:55:06 PM , Rating: 3
I always love that idiotic lie "I"ve worked damn hard".

Bullsh!t, there are plenty of millions of people in this world that work similarly hard in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world countries, it wasn't working hard that got you were you are, and it isn't in itself some justification for wasteful living relative to someone outside the US.

Work hard < work smart
Smart is recognizing that needs and happiness don't actually depend on excessiveness.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Moishe on 2/19/2007 12:33:32 PM , Rating: 2
Work is work. Some work pays more, some pays less. That is usually determined by the market.

But his comment is pretty spot on. People work so that they can enjoy the fruits of their labor. The benefits for working harder may just be food to live on, or a nice car, or a new TV. Either way people should be rewarded for working.

What you call excess, I call the benefit of having skill and a good job. It shouldn't be up to you or some government to tell me what is and is not excess. Freedom means you can go overboard if you can afford it or you can live like a monk even if you're a millionaire.

Your attitude is pretty common and it indicates that you think your opinion about excess is worth forcing on others. This sort of thinking goes in all directions though. If you can tell me that my car is excess, I can tell you that the food you eat is excess. It goes on and on and eventually, you're just a slave to other people's whims with no freedom to choose.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By sxr7171 on 2/18/2007 2:30:27 AM , Rating: 2
No one's telling you that you can't have your gas guzzler, just that you'd have to pay more for it. So keep working hard(er).


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By bob661 on 2/16/2007 1:19:34 PM , Rating: 2
1. America is a democratic society where we have freedom of speech and expression.
2. It's MY money. Not yours and not societies. I don't work to better society. I work to better MY and MY families life. A side benefit is that OUR society continues runs because we all work.
3. In OUR society (not yours), we buy stuff. Buying stuff keeps people employed. There's all kinds of side benefits from being employed. See #2 for one benefit.
4. We make some damn good money compared to the rest of the world as a whole society. See numbers 1 and 2 for why that is.
5. Because of #4, we like to live good. We also are very generous and give in the billions (look it up). But why would we give away most of what we make? Where is the incentive to work harder? Where is the incentive to create? Where is the incentive to raise our children with good work ethics? There HAS to be personal benefit. Giving away most of your money does not benefit the person.
6. Not all of us are fat. My entire family including in laws are very healthy, eat well and exercise. You watch too much TV if you think it's different. Americans are generally healthy. Just because we're bigger doesn't mean we're fatter.
7. If you don't like what I've said, stay in your country where things are how you like it to be. And I'll happily stay in mine. And trust me, if I had my say, our military wouldn't step foot outside of our waters. And there are plenty of Americans that believe in that philosophy. Too bad we don't care about politics to change it.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By ZeeStorm on 2/16/2007 2:05:57 PM , Rating: 1
Typical immature response. He comes with very valid reasons, and all you can come up with is childish name calling. By the way, what's a moroon? (hilarious) Please come up with a better response to this person's statements. I think they're quite accurate.

P.S. Just because people don't know what a checkbox is in West Palm Beach, does not mean Bush stole votes in Florida. My family proudly voted for Bush, thanks.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By ZeeStorm on 2/16/07, Rating: 0
By CascadingDarkness on 2/16/2007 6:55:43 PM , Rating: 2
Seems like a poor way to justify the death of what he implies {I think} as an innocent civilian.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By 05SilverGT on 2/16/2007 2:53:32 PM , Rating: 1
The last time I checked American troops weren't blowing up 60 people daily with car bombs. Instead they are rebuilding schools and beefing up the Iraq infrastructure. The terrorist, Saddam loyalists, and militia groups keep screwing it all up. That’s were the anger should be. All the Americans did was tried to throw out a potential threat that wouldn’t live up to the ceasefire agreements he made. A large percent of the American population is tired of these thugs around the world. It’s time we get the rest of the world working instead of living off of social welfare and American handouts.

On a side note I'll take my 300+ HP 05 Mustang GT that gets 28MPG on the highway, does 0-60MPH in less than 5 seconds and the high twelve’s in the qtr. mile. That's without a SC or Turbo.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By 05SilverGT on 2/16/2007 3:05:24 PM , Rating: 2
Again I can't see the movies at work but there are always bad people in any group. However as a whole I think American troops do a fine job and want to help people in anyway they can. It's why they do what they do. Anyways the more I think about this the Iraq stuff is really off topic. Lets get back to cars!


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By hubajube on 2/16/2007 4:18:20 PM , Rating: 2
And I could probably find videos with you surfing porn. What's your point? There people make mistakes? That a "good" military would have perfect soldiers that never committed crimes? What planet do you live on? I want to know what Utopian society you live in where mistakes and even atrocities aren't committed. No one is perfect bro. I understand a lot of Europeans are afraid right now but place the root of the fear where it lies. And for God's sake, quit watching so much TV and learn for yourself what the world really like.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By johnsonx on 2/16/2007 4:26:42 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure why you provided two links to the same clip, but either way, what does this clip show that anyone is supposed to be upset about? I'm impressed: whatever the reason for the way he's driving (a wounded soldier in the back of the truck maybe?), notice how precise the driver is to bump the other cars just hard enough to get their attention; nobody crashes. No one in the entire video gets so much as stubbed toe. Is that really the best you can come up with?



RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By michal1980 on 2/17/07, Rating: -1
By CascadingDarkness on 2/17/2007 1:19:12 PM , Rating: 2
So are you just saying you want the nation of America to be destroyed, or all the people. It's not quite clear. I've gotta say wishing for people to die when you know nothing about them individually, but just condeming them all together is genocide. Last time I looked this is a rather evil and awful thing.

Gotta say I'm rather sick of everyone picking on USA for generalizing and hating groups outright without trying to understand them, but then everyone else goes and does the same thing to us.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Milliamp on 2/17/2007 12:44:50 PM , Rating: 2
They are in a hurry, they are beeping but the cars cannot hear the horn, so they are bumper tapping them to get them to move.

It looks to me like they were in a hurry to get somewhere.

Does the reason they were rushing justify driving like that? Well I guess that would depend on the reason, but I think its pretty safe to assume it was an emergency of some sort.

You say America will fall, but if the people who are responsible for bringing it down are driving around like that rather than throwing us all in concentration camps I suppose it could be worse.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By 05SilverGT on 2/16/2007 2:57:23 PM , Rating: 2
Video's at my work are blocked but trust me there are always some bad apples in the bunch. I'll take American troops over any in the world. History shows they'll get the job done when the American government does get in their way. Like the dems are doing right now.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By vicjm on 2/16/2007 2:35:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
every empires crumbles , and your fat ass rich polluting empire will crumble.. pray that when it does the poor ppl of the planet won't be so hugry as to consider you americans - Food.


I've seen a lot of interesting comments, but I think this is the first time I've seen someone suggest that our behavior could result in being . . . eaten.

Oh, and of course the detention center at Guantanamo Bay isn't democratic. Do inmates in your country run the prisons? I would think that would make security more difficult.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By 05SilverGT on 2/16/2007 2:59:09 PM , Rating: 2
No we'll probably be saving their asses from the next real big threat like we always do.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By 05SilverGT on 2/16/2007 3:32:15 PM , Rating: 2
Where the hell are you from. Do you realize America offers the largest amount of foreign aid to Africa? And I do have a big cock by the way. Thanks!


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By CascadingDarkness on 2/16/2007 7:26:37 PM , Rating: 2
Any idea how much of a hypocrite you are right now? Here you are yelling at Americans for generalizing people {arabs}, and considering them all {possible} terrorists. Your doing exactly what you accuse us of doing. Seems hating America is the cool thing to do these days. I should know, plenty of people who live here think it is.

I am an American btw. Do you know what I want? To go to work, live my life, and be happy.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: 0
By CascadingDarkness on 2/17/2007 11:46:52 AM , Rating: 2
I can sympathize with your situation, but rather than getting angry and attacking everyone who has basically no relation to this scenario you should be trying to clear their name and doing something constructive.

Continuing a cycle of hate that is started directly only by a handful of people, and than passing it along to a great number who actually feel something like that is awful isn't going to help. It's just going to continue the cycle of things like this happening. If you're just saying that out of anger I can understand, but if that is your line of thinking than this type of thing will never end.

I know I'm speaking out of turn, because nothing like this has ever happened to me or anyone I know. When it comes down to it any US citizen who pays taxes {basically all} is guilty for kidnapping? That seems a bit harsh.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By michal1980 on 2/17/07, Rating: 0
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By rtrski on 2/26/2007 2:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
Where do you live?
Do you pay taxes to your government?
Do you agree with every single thing they do?
Would you consider yourself personally guilty for every bad act of theirs, to the extent of receiving a death sentence for their crimes?

Oh, I'm sorry...that's reserved for evil Americans...

But feel free to keep typing on that computer, and posting on that old Internet, both of which are brainchildren of American ingenuity. The tools of the Debil will corrupt you yet!

<hugs and kisses>


By Le Québécois on 2/16/2007 1:54:22 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Americans are generally healthy. Just because we're bigger doesn't mean we're fatter.


I don't know where you get that from but according to wikipedia ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obese#Prevalence

quote:
The prevalence of overweight and obesity in the United States makes obesity a leading public health problem. The United States has the highest rates of obesity in the developed world. From 1980 to 2002, obesity has doubled in adults and overweight prevalence has tripled in children and adolescents.[20] From 2003-2004, "children and adolescents aged 2 to 19 years, 17.1% were overweight...and 32.2% of adults aged 20 years or older were obese."[20] The prevalence in the United States continues to rise.


If wiki is wrong and you have the data to correct it please do so and let me change my perception of the USA population.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/16/2007 6:34:14 PM , Rating: 4
8. and by living like this we have realized that this way of life is not sustainable and am willing to change.
Can I get an amen?

no one is asking you to give up your car and only eat tofu for the rest of your life - if a small change to your lifesytle can make a significant change to the sustainability of it why not go for it?

also in rebuttal to your point 3
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAi...
while the USA gives the most foreign aid, compared to their GDP, they are ranked 21st - hardly anything to gloat about.

another thing; its wierd how the general sentiment is that if you dont like or live in the USA, you are either
1) a terrorist 2)some european crazy kook 3) a vegeterian tree hugging hippy 4) all of the above

if everyone is changing for the better then standing still actually means you're going backwards.


/rant


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By masher2 (blog) on 2/16/2007 7:12:55 PM , Rating: 2
> "while the USA gives the most foreign aid, compared to their GDP, they are ranked 21st - hardly anything to gloat about..."

Your link only compares public foreign aid...that aid given directly by the government. The US leads the world in private charitable donations by a much larger margin.

> "no one is asking you to give up your car and only eat tofu for the rest of your life - if a small change to your lifesytle can make a significant change to the sustainability of it why not go for it?"

Because a small change does nothing. That's just it. If the doomsayers are right, then even cutting world gasoline consumption in half-- a wildly unrealistic goal-- doesn't even appreciably slow global warming, much less halt it. Cutting all CO2 emissions by 50%, which means not just driving, but half as much electricity, half as much meat production, and a hundred other sacrifices, will, by 2100, result in continued warming that's only 0.8 degrees less than what we'd otherwise experience.

That's if the doomsayers are correct. Luckily, more and more evidence says they're not....and that this environmental scare is no different than any of the thousands before it.




RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/17/2007 10:42:16 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Your link only compares public foreign aid...that aid given directly by the government. The US leads the world in private charitable donations by a much larger margin.

and for private donations how much of the companies bottom line would be donated -- Anybody can donate a million dollars when your net worth is 50mil+
also, I would question how much of these donations are a direct result of tax writeoffs/claims

quote:
Because a small change does nothing


so instead your attitude is to just do whatever the hell u want and just say stuff u to the world?
how about telling us where u live - that way I can build a nuclear power plant and a sulphur mine next door

having a green attitude costs nothing, and yet its already too hard?


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By masher2 (blog) on 2/17/2007 10:58:03 AM , Rating: 2
> "I would question how much of these donations are a direct result of tax writeoffs/claims..."

From this, I assume you've never made a charitable donation yourself. Let me explain how the process works. Say my marginal tax rate is 30%. I donate $10,000, which saves me $3,000 in taxes. I still lost $7,000. I didn't save anything.

When the US tax code consisted largely of fixed non-marginal brackets, you could sometimes save money with a donation that would drop you to a lower bracket. But since the overhaul of the brackets, this is no longer true.

> "having a green attitude costs nothing..."

And accomplishes nothing either. Except for that nice warm fuzzy feeling you get. But then, that's more important than results, eh?


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/17/2007 3:59:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
saves me $3,000 in taxes. I still lost $7,000. I didn't save anything.


you didnt lose anything, you DONATED $7000 yes. costs less than donating $10,000, wouldnt the $3000 be called a saving then? amazing math skills eh?


Its funny because you seem like a person that feels like the world always owes you something whereas some of us seem to feel we owe the world.

how exactly is anybody supposed to fix an environmental problem without an environmental attitude?
an exercise in futility is still exercise. but who needs that when you can just close your eyes.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By masher2 (blog) on 2/17/2007 5:20:19 PM , Rating: 2
> "you didnt lose anything, you DONATED $7000 yes. costs less than donating $10,000, wouldnt the $3000 be called a saving then?

I'm not sure if you're intentionally trying to be dense or not, but the point is that donating to charity does not save you money. The US is the largest private donor to charity by far...because private individuals and companies want to donate. Not because they're "saving" money by doing it.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/18/2007 4:23:15 AM , Rating: 2
no im not intentionally trying to be dense; but just that you have decided to sit on one particular side of the fence and I have decided to sit on the other.

I did not claim that donating to charity saves you money; merely that you can donate at least 130% of what you put in and ultimatley makes your company look better. and I only question if the whole donating scheme is not entirely fueled by kindness but rather for publicity and PR to impress shareholders. I could be wrong but we'll never know.

and by your method of thinking masher2 im surprised you haven't said something like "donating is pointless anyways, the poor african people are going to die before they are 20 anyways of starvation, disease, aids etc.."


and to the guy below:
do you not believe in firedrills? I hope where you work never catches fire then.
I was merely pointing out the fact that shouldn't it be better to try at something and fail or get no result rather than sitting around twiddling your thumbs and waiting for something to crap itself? (proactive vs. reactive) maybe its a misconception I have about humans.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By masher2 (blog) on 2/18/2007 9:01:22 AM , Rating: 1
> "I did not claim that donating to charity saves you money..."

You claimed much of private donations were the result of tax deductions. If you were speaking English, then you were implying the motivation was a desire to save money, rather than to contribute.

> "I [question] if the whole donating scheme is entirely fueled by...publicity and PR to impress shareholders..."

Well of course it is. Everything a corporation does is for either its customers or its shareholders. That's their legal responsibility, in fact. Public corporations are not allowed to squander funds. If it doesn't build value somehow for the shareholders, then you're shirking your fiduciary responsibility.

But you miss the point. The important fact is that US corporations have so many customers and shareholders that like those huge contributions. If not for that, they'd never donate. And you also ignore the tens of billions of dollars given annually by private individuals. Not big business.



RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xsilver on 2/20/2007 7:36:01 AM , Rating: 3
I have no idea what you are arguing about anymore, in fact I'm not sure you understand me at all.
you are mangling my quote to make it sound like I have no idea.

in one sentence you strongly disagree with me, yet in the next sentence you say of course, and then in the next you say I miss the point and try to argue another point which I have already explained.

here it is again one last time
Anybody, private or corporation who donates money that lives in a government with taxes is giving MORE than the actual amount taken out of their pocket. probably at LEAST 30% in fact. Therefore it is debatable, and I question, weather this incentive is a distinctive factor in the reason WHY people are willing to donate money. Another reason as to WHY donations can come freely is that it is viewed as payment to boost public relations and at least somewhat make a multimillion/billion corporation/individual look less like a ass.
I have no doubt that if people/corporations are in such a standing of wealth, contributing a small percentage of profits to a good cause is a negligible expense.
before you misunderstand me again, private citizens also pay tax no? so their donations can also be tax deductible, at least where I'm from. Private donations can also buy social standing amongst your friends ranging from saving a 3rd world village/city to rescuing some ancient artworks/statues in a remote/wartorn region etc.etc. its called philanthropy.
again I'm NOT stating that these are the only reasons for donating but since there is no possibility for donating without these reasons - we'll never know.
btw. I don't like how you present everything in such black and white terms, its never that simple; try to understand.


By masher2 (blog) on 2/20/2007 9:13:06 AM , Rating: 2
> "in one sentence you strongly disagree with me, yet in the next sentence you say of course"

Because between your two sentences, you changed your statement entirely. In the first, you implied charitable donations were the result of tax savings. In the second, you implied corporate donations (specifically excluding individuals) were the result of a desire to "impress stockholders and customers".

Your first statement was false. Your second one was correct, but irrelevant.

> "I have no doubt that if people/corporations are in such a standing of wealth, contributing a small percentage of profits to a good cause is a negligible expense..."

Bill Gates is giving away 90% of every dollar he ever made; Warren Buffet is going to give away nearly every penny of his $44 billion. Those aren't "small percentages of profits".

A public corporation, now, cannot give away its entire fortune. Should it try, it would instantly be the target of SEC action and shareholder lawsuit. Corporations exist to make a profit, not to give it away. Still, total corporate charitable donations in the US are larger than the EU's entire budget for foreign aid.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Lord 666 on 2/17/2007 7:02:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
An exercise in futility is still exercise


Unfortunately, I can't rate this reply down since already participating in the post.

This reply ranks up there in the most pointless and ignorant. Something that should be the new quote on the bottom of news articles of Dailytech.

In management speak, its called a "firedrill" or a "false alarm" whenever something is an exercise but is futile.



RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By sxr7171 on 2/18/2007 2:33:03 AM , Rating: 2
#3: Keep buying lots of gasoline because it makes lots of rich Saudi sheikhs.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xstylus on 2/17/2007 3:15:29 AM , Rating: 2
Excuse you?

I am an American starving student who is surviving on a shoestring budget at a part time job, going to a University with crazily increasing tuition fees and drive a (what we consider) very efficient 27mpg vehicle. I'm also underweight by 10lbs.

Yes, there's a disproportionately larger number of inconsiderate and pompous assholes here in America than elsewhere (and unfortunately, unlike my generation, they vote, which thus explains why Bush is president). However, I resent you speaking as if all Americans, including myself, are that way.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By badgeror on 2/16/2007 10:59:15 AM , Rating: 5
I love that comment!

I guess you've never gone out of town man did you? it's not like putting 300hp in a 3 tons vehicle will get you more acceleration than 150hp in a 1ton vehicle. You can get fast cars that are energy efficient. Problem is you can't get heavy ones to be energy efficient...
But by the way? why have cars that can run so fast when most of the time (ie always) you drive at speed limits that are so low compared to some european countries (not even mentionning german highways which are speed limits free...)?

As a final note: no one would buy a car that says "goes 0-60... eventually" you don't need to be american for that. but who needs a hummer to move from point A to point B running at speed limits, alone in your vehicle? except maybe to compensate for some lack manhood?


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By wolrah on 2/16/2007 11:23:51 AM , Rating: 2
I think part of the problem is that most of our small cars are not fun to drive. I can't say I've ever hopped out of a Focus or Civic and thought "that was fun". I have, on the other hand, thought exactly that every time I got out of my Thunderbird.

It seems like the American auto market has a problem that's best described by this: Small, Practical, Fun, pick two. Small and fun cars like a Miata or S2000 are not at all practical. Small practical cars like a Civic or Camry are not really fun, and practical, fun cars like a Thunderbird (ignore the retro model when talking practicality) or Marauder are big and have engines to match.

For me personally, to be fun a vehicle can not be front wheel drive. I just don't like the feel of a FWD at the limit. This excludes practically every small vehicle from the fun category by default, because for some reason the Europeans won't bring over some of the small RWD models like the BMW 1 series.

Give me a RWD compact 5 door hatch with a 0-60 time below 9 seconds and handling to match, I'll give up having a V8 as a daily driver without a second thought. I get 22 MPG if I take it easy, so I'd love to be up in the 30-40 MPG range, I just can't stand driving econoboxes and I need more cargo space than the few fun compacts offer.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Merry on 2/16/2007 11:35:57 AM , Rating: 3
BMW 3 series diesel? Maybe not compact but it fits what you want.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Alpha2Omega on 2/16/2007 11:51:45 AM , Rating: 3
As I understand it, the way American cars are set up in terms of their suspension is different to European cars. I live in the UK and from what I've read, the Focus you mention and to a lesser degree, the Civic, are two of the most fun to drive small cars on the road today. Sure they're not fun like a BMW 3-Series is, but they're not unexciting. The Focus has independent rear suspension which gives it very good handling by all accounts.

If you don't like FWD cars, that's down to you, but then certainly over here, you'd have to be going considerably faster than the speed limit to be anywhere near it's technical limits.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By ThisSpaceForRent on 2/16/2007 1:08:52 PM , Rating: 2
I would tend to agree. I went from a BMW 325is to a Civic SI, and the Civic has a better suspension. Of course they handle much differently, front wheel as opposed to rear wheel drive.

One thing people never think about when it comes to fuel convservation is gear ratios. The Civic I have gets terrible gas mileage in town due to the gearing of 1st through 4th gears. The only saving grace is that the car has a 6th gear for highway driving which makes a world of difference for the gas mileage.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By FITCamaro on 2/16/2007 1:54:39 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. The problem isn't the engine. Its the tuning and gearing. There are people with 6 speed Corvettes making well over 400hp and getting 30+ mpg. I've seen one with a supercharger on it that ran 10s or 11s at the track and got 35mpg on the highway. All the gearing. I've got a Cobalt SS 2.4L and if it had a 6th gear, it'd probably get 40 mpg on the highway. The 31-32 it gets isn't bad, but an extra gear would give it even better. Now thats driving at 70-75. If I'm doing 55-60, it's getting 38-40.

Good tuning and proper gearing can make a V8 have awesome power, great acceleration, and good mileage. Maybe not 25+ in the city, but good for the engine size.

And yes, American's like horsepower. The majority of us don't like Mini's and the like. I'm 6' 1" and sat in one. While I had enough room for me and a passenger, thats about all the room there was. Thats not to say I want a huge Excursion or Tahoe (I have no use for one), but I want something bigger. I go for fun and practical. Of course whats practical is different for everyone. If you have a boat or something else you need to tow, a V8 SUV with a large tow rating is practical. If you are a single person or someone with one kid, you don't have anything to tow, and its never going to see dirt behind that on the street, you don't need a Tahoe or other large SUV. You just want one because you think it makes you look rich, important, cool, and/or manly. Thats not to be confused with people who drive sports cars (of course some get them for that reason). I love to go fast. A Miata or Civic doesn't cut it. Neither does my current Cobalt, but I got out of college and had to get something I could afford to drive 150 miles a day. Now I don't need it, but I can't afford to go trade it in and get a new car. So I'll just pay it off, and in a few years, get the new Camaro coming out.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By sxr7171 on 2/18/2007 2:39:15 AM , Rating: 3
Yeah, I'll take a BMW 1 series or Peugeot 306 or Alfa 147. I'm glad Audi brought over the A3, but no one wants it because you could be successful in every way in life and people here will laugh at you for driving it. Not that I would care.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By xstylus on 2/17/2007 4:40:05 PM , Rating: 3
Part of it is about intimidation factor, and feeling superior to everyone else on the road.

Having an expensively large vehicle with a throaty engine engine and a big exhaust even if you don't need it (especially in 5mph Los Angeles traffic) is a status symbol, and it also tells people not to mess with you.

It's all about saying "I'm faster than you, I'm bigger than you, and I have more money than you so get the hell out of my road or I will crush you and your pathetically un-American rice-burning econobox and sue your surviving kin for the faint scratches I incurred in the process."

That's the mindset of the +51% Bush voting American majority, unfortunately. At times I'm embarrassed to live here.



RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Dribble on 2/16/2007 11:18:02 AM , Rating: 4
Bet a uk lotus elise (about 120hp) would be quicker around a race track then most muscle cars. Power->weight ratio = acceleration. grip->weight ratio = Handling/turning speed. Only thing power gives you is a higher top speed, but being as even the weediest new car can comfortably break the highest speed limits that's hardly a big issue.

There's no real excuse - it's a cultural thing that needs to change - there's no reason for doing the school run in something big enough to pull a bus.


By Alpha2Omega on 2/16/2007 11:56:39 AM , Rating: 2
It could indeed. I have the latest video from Jeremy Clarkson (for those not from the UK, he's a famous motoring presenter) and he pits a Lotus Exige (the hardtop, 200bhp brother of the Elise) against a Roush modified Ford Mustang around a racetrack and the Exige won.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By therealnickdanger on 2/16/2007 12:17:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
it's a cultural thing that needs to change

Does it? I don't think so at all. There's no problem with wanting what you want. If I want to buy a car ONLY because it looks cool, so be it. If I want to buy a car because it can break land-speed records, who's to tell me I can't? If I want to buy a car just to pimp out and win car shows, why is that bad?

Manufacturers should be allowed to build what they want and consumers should be able to buy what they want.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Dribble on 2/16/2007 1:15:27 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to pimp it up to work as a boat then - that could be useful as global warming kicks in and we all end up underwater :)

If American's want to blow holes in our world's ozone layer all in the name of fashion then the rest of the world has the right to object.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By bob661 on 2/16/2007 1:30:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If American's want to blow holes in our world's ozone layer all in the name of fashion then the rest of the world has the right to object.
Never been to China have you? We are not the world's gross polluter. We just get all the bad press. California STILL needs some work but most of the country has fresh, clean air and the emissions requirements reflect that.

Why is it that Americans get to use battle tanks as commuter vehicles while I have to drive a SEAT? Economics is one reason. Less socialism in our society is another. BTW, anyone here is free to join us. Ask Mexico how open our borders are.


By Le Québécois on 2/16/2007 2:15:57 PM , Rating: 2
I've been to China and you're right it is ugly. But just think for a second if every person in China did have our (USA and Canada are the worst per-capita polluters in the world) "freedom to pollute" what THAT would mean for our planet pollution.

quote:
California STILL needs some work but most of the country has fresh, clean air and the emissions requirements reflect that.


Don't fool yourself, it's because we live in the biggests countries (if you forget about Russia) in the world that we still have fresh and clean air if we do step out of the cities. Not because we don't pollute.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By mezman on 2/16/2007 4:54:48 PM , Rating: 2
Does using spell-check and punctuation consume too much "fule" too?

If you want to spout vitriolic BS to make yourself feel superior, that's your dumb call, but at least have enough respect for yourself and everyone who reads this forum to freaking proofread your posts before throwing them up for the world to see.


By AlmostExAMD on 2/16/2007 7:04:36 PM , Rating: 1
Maybe you should think also before posting, This is not a school exam,Secondly if you took the slightest notice in the word "Fule" instead of "Fuel" you might have realised it may have been a simple typing mistake probably from typing to fast, The L was hit before the E. It happens to the best of us sometimes,Give the person a break, Lighten up!


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Ringold on 2/16/2007 12:24:33 PM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah; that all makes sense.. Ford and GM are so in bed with big oil they're going bankrupt! Golly, sounds like a good logical relationship, huh?

Or maybe because no car manufacturer knows how to get European econo-box style fuel efficiency while meeting American taste for size, safety standards, driving conditions and other preferences?

Look. Foreign companies enter and exit markets freely. If a European car mfg knew how to do it, you're pretty dim if you don't think they'd come to America and offer it. To offer a Camry-clone that gets 40 or 50mpg at a similar (or better) price point? They'd be filthy bloody rich over night.

But since no one has done it, and no one is even close to doing it, logical assumption to non-conspiracy theorists and non-environmental communists? It must not be possible.

If you think it is, its a free country (here, at least), and I invite you to patent the necessary tech and open up shop. I'll be your first customer.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By lucyfek on 2/16/2007 12:50:36 PM , Rating: 3
the funny thing is that gm and ford do have better (more efficient and better looking) vehicle mix for sale in europe than in the "motherland". is it to streamline the business and cut the costs?
i wish i could get the same models here in states. but someone has made the choice for me (was it free market?).


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By daidaloss on 2/16/07, Rating: -1
RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By mezman on 2/16/2007 5:30:01 PM , Rating: 2
Alright Nutso. Back in your cage before you start slobbering on your keyboard.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Ringold on 2/17/2007 12:04:58 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, VW loses money on every vehicle sold in the United States. Primarily because it's European labor unions have it by the balls by making up 50% of the board of directors and refusing to allow cost-savings. But thats another bag of worms entirely.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By Mitch101 on 2/16/2007 12:27:21 PM , Rating: 2
I would however if the surrounding vehicles are 2-3 times my weight and size then well I dont want to be an accordian when metal starts to twist.


RE: Big Cars, lots of Horsepower
By misuspita on 2/16/2007 1:59:42 PM , Rating: 2
Have you seen the Mercedes Smart testing? Or the EURONCAP star rating it gets? I couldn't believe myself when a car that is so small can be that sturdy (frontal impact made it "shrink" by some 20-30 cm/ 8-10 inch). I like that strong case they've put in that tiny car. So I don't think it's amatter of size, just of technology/materials used. Oh, and also gets a great mileage because of weightand a 800 cm3 motor