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Xbox 360 Premium with HDMI port  (Source: Shacknews)

Xbox 360 documentation which notes HDMI port  (Source: Shacknews)
Shacknews reader finds an HDMI port on his new Xbox 360 Premium

Yesterday, Microsoft announced across-the-board price cuts for its Xbox 360 lineup. Prices for the $479 Elite, $399 Premium and $299 Core dropped to $449.99, $349.99 and $279.99 respectively.

It turns out that Microsoft's announcement of price cuts across the board for its Xbox 360 lineup wasn't the only thing the folks at Redmond had in store for consumers. A Shacknews reader purchased a $349.99 Xbox 360 Premium today from a Target store in Atlanta and was surprised to see an HDMI port on the console.

The manufacture date for the console was listed as July 4 and the documentation provided for the console made clear mention of the new HDMI port.

HDMI was first introduced on the Xbox 360 Elite in late April. That console came with a black finish and a 120GB HDD instead of the 20GB included on the Premium. Microsoft also announced that the upcoming Xbox 360 Halo 3 Special Edition Console would feature an HDMI port -- albeit at a higher $399.99 price tag.

It is unknown whether the inclusion of the HDMI port will also extend to the Xbox 360 Core. It may be more cost effective for Microsoft to just produce a single motherboard for the entire Xbox 360 lineup instead of continuing its current HDMI/non-HDMI production. It is also unclear if this new batch of Xbox 360 consoles feature the new cooler-running 65 nanometer Falcon CPU and GPU.

Updated 08/08/07:
A Microsoft represenative confirmed to Kotaku that the Xbox 360 Premium is indeed now shipping with an HDMI port. "Yes, we are offering an HDMI port for Xbox 360 simply as another choice in Xbox 360 owners' games and entertainment experience. Retailers are gradually introducing HDMI-enabled Xbox 360s into the channel to meet demand."



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Finally
By daftrok on 8/8/2007 6:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
They finally caved. Its a shame that these HDMI ports are only 1.2 spec (no 7.1 sound) but a step in the right direction. It wont be long until games will be able to play at 1080p rather than upscaling from 720p.




RE: Finally
By exdeath on 8/8/2007 6:34:47 PM , Rating: 2
Why would someone with nice enough gear to have HDMI be using copper for audio anyway?

I've been using digital optical for years.


RE: Finally
By rninneman on 8/8/2007 6:53:03 PM , Rating: 3
Optical digital audio only sounds better in theory. Ask any audiophile or any knowledgeable engineer; it is much easier to implement a high quality copper digital link than a fiber link. The problem is syncing the clocks in the 2 devices. Most CE devices have horrible Toslink implementations. A Toslink circuit that has as little jitter as coaxial digital would cost more than the entire xbox.

BTW, HDMI has been able to carry 7.1 PCM audio since version 1. 1.3 added Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, xvYCC color, higher single link connections for resolutions and refresh rates, lip sync, and a mini connector.



RE: Finally
By aos007 on 8/8/2007 7:40:17 PM , Rating: 2
Optical cables are potentially more beneficial for crowded environment (lots of high frequency noise nearby) but the most often quoted drawback is higher jitter. Neither of these would likely be noticeable to vast majority of users.

However, optical - and coax! - S/PDIF are not able to carry anything better than 5.1 compressed audio (Dolby or DTS) by specification. While HDMI is able to carry 7.1 uncompressed or compressed in newer formats (TrueHD, Master HD etc.). And the fact that it's encrypted means that copyright owners are allowing all those high resolution high channel count formats to be actually deployed. So no, "copper" in this case is vastly superior - as long as you have equipment to accept it.


RE: Finally
By Goty on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: Finally
By Desslok on 8/8/2007 9:15:24 PM , Rating: 4
How is that clapped out Monte Carlo working for you?


RE: Finally
By FITCamaro on 8/8/2007 11:36:05 PM , Rating: 4
Spinners cool your brakes too.


RE: Finally
By Samus on 8/10/2007 4:49:35 PM , Rating: 1
But they weigh a ton, adding to the weight of spun mass, increasing your stopping distances and decreasing accererating time and cornering ability.


RE: Finally
By S3anister on 8/10/2007 7:38:23 PM , Rating: 2
while increasing the vehicle's overall ballin'


RE: Finally
By PurdueRy on 8/8/2007 7:30:27 PM , Rating: 4
Because their is no audible difference between the two. Digital coax is superior in robustness. Optical is superior in noise rejection(minimally as quad shielded coax is very good) and over longer lengths(30+ feet).

For most users who run a 6 foot cable, there is no difference between the two quality wise. In fact, for digital coax, you can just use any old video cable you have laying around. They are the same.


RE: Finally
By doctat on 8/9/2007 3:46:14 AM , Rating: 3
eh, sorry i'm still not clear on the whole 'this digital cable is better than that digital cable' thing.

you either get the correct bits out the other end of a digital link, or you don't, right?


RE: Finally
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 8:30:52 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
you either get the correct bits out the other end of a digital link, or you don't, right?

exactly, anyone who tells you otherwise, is making stuff up, probably to justify their current setup ;)
Although someone posted you can use any rca cable in place of a digital coax cable is not exactly true, digital coax runs at 75ohms where as normal rca is something like 55ohms. Although the normal user may not be able to tell the difference, some people can(some people say highs are not as warm)


RE: Finally
By shines on 8/9/2007 1:38:04 PM , Rating: 3
The waveforms that represent the sound are encoded in the bits sent across the cable. Bits don't have "warmth", and no property of an RCA cable can selectively alter the bitstream in such a was as to produce a warmer sound.


RE: Finally
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 2:14:34 PM , Rating: 2
Digital coax is 75ohm cable (like your cable TV or FM radio cable) and is designed to work in the megahertz range. Audio interconnects are a different impedance and will degrade digital data since they are designed to work in the 0 - 20 kilohertz range (they are usually 50ohm). On the otherhand, the unshielded yellow video interconnects are 75ohm, and could be used as short a short range cable (6ft and under) with no degradation.

I am not saying you or most people can tell the difference, but with high end equipment you will, plain and simple.


RE: Finally
By Hare on 8/11/2007 7:49:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I am not saying you or most people can tell the difference, but with high end equipment you will, plain and simple.

BS. If the cable works it works. 01010 in, 01010 out. The quality of the cable doesn't matter as long as you get the bits out. If you don't get the bits out you get breaks or other digital problems but there's no way you could say that "hmm, that guitar doesn't sound very warm" etc. Anyone can hear digital transportation problems if there are any. What's next? MP3 files from a Samsung drive sound better than the same files out of WD? Or the color of the sata-cable matters?

The equipment excuse just doesn't work here.


RE: Finally
By sxr7171 on 8/13/2007 12:25:11 AM , Rating: 2
Read up on jitter and timing.


RE: Finally
By ToeCutter on 8/10/2007 11:29:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
you either get the correct bits out the other end of a digital link, or you don't, right?


Exactly.

This is the same verbal circle jerk I've been listening to since digital outputs became available in retail.

A poorly placed window will do more to "disrupt audio fidelity" than any digital cable you're using.

Consider the irony that most folks using the lossless, high bit rate streams must resort to discrete copper analog interconnects because gear manufacturers are slow to add the latest HDMI revisions into their products.

(Which is why I' still using a 3 year old Onkyo with Toslink and 5.1 audio via VLC)


RE: Finally
By Samus on 8/10/2007 4:51:10 PM , Rating: 2
right, but you can get dropped packets, resulting in a pop noise now and then, if digital coax has interference.


RE: Finally
By deeznuts on 8/9/2007 1:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why would someone with nice enough gear to have HDMI be using copper for audio anyway?

I've been using digital optical for years.
Are you talking about HDMI when you say "copper?"

If so, as pointed out SPDIF only allows 2.1 LPCM (uncompressed) there is not enough bandwidth for more than 5.1 (maybe 7.1) DD and DTS spec.

HDMI allows for multichannel uncompressed signals, as well as DTS-MA and DD TrueHD.


RE: Finally
By TOAOCyrus on 8/8/07, Rating: 0
RE: Finally
By daftrok on 8/8/2007 6:48:07 PM , Rating: 3
Well they have been slowly but surely embracing 1080p since that update, but it has only been upscaling. Component and VGA are all well and good, but when most consumers think 1080p, they think HDMI. It won' be long until they start making games to run at true 1080p (rather than just upscaling). They could have done it before, but a good portion of 1080p capable televisions/projectors/receivers only took it via HDMI. This should finally close the gap.


RE: Finally
By FITCamaro on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: Finally
By Scabies on 8/8/2007 7:32:49 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And any TV that supports 1080p will do it regardless of the interface.

ooohhhh fallacies.
Sony A2000 lineup. my 50A2000 will not accept 1080p over component, PS3 Xbox360 or PC (the latter I have tried at 24, 30, and 60hz)
1080p over HDMI, no problem. 1080i component, no problem. But no 1080p component.


RE: Finally
By aos007 on 8/8/2007 7:42:47 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, not all TVs accept 1080p over component. Some 1080p TVs (e.g. last year Toshiba models) do not even accept 1080p over HDMI! You have to do your research when buying a new TV, even today.


RE: Finally
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 8:41:33 AM , Rating: 2
most tvs dont accept 1080p over component, not some =P and if they do, they are mostly line doubled, not true 1080p


RE: Finally
By aos007 on 8/9/2007 12:08:16 PM , Rating: 2
To be fair, as far as I know very few devices actually output 1080p over component. None of my video cards does that for example, not NVidia nor ATI. My TV - Sharp LC46D62U - does accept it (I made this feature a requirement when I was shopping, because of Xbox360).

With new HDMI-capable Xbox, having component input capable of accepting 1080p may not be as big of deal any more.


RE: Finally
By FITCamaro on 8/8/2007 11:41:44 PM , Rating: 2
Ok I'll put it this way then. There is no reason a TV can't do 1080p over any interface unless a TV manufacturer puts it in the TVs logic to stop it.

Who would've thought Sony would do this with their TVs...
Part of why I'll never buy a Sony. I'll stick with Samsung.


RE: Finally
By RubberJohnny on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: Finally
By RubberJohnny on 8/12/2007 11:48:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is no reason a TV can't do 1080p over any interface...

Good luck getting 1080p or 720p to work over your s-video connection.
quote:
Who would've thought Sony would do this with their TVs...
Part of why I'll never buy a Sony. I'll stick with Samsung.

Did you know that a lot of samsung LCD TV's wont accept a DVI PC input through its HDMI port? Not sure if this affects many other LCD TVs, can anyone else confirm?


RE: Finally
By MGSsancho on 8/9/2007 2:44:36 AM , Rating: 2
1080P over component is out of spec. If it works then than your TV manufacture for it is not required.


RE: Finally
By MGSsancho on 8/9/2007 2:41:10 AM , Rating: 3
oh really? how come i spent most of my afternoon playing 1080P games on a PS3 what i downloaded? (they cost $9.99 each.) and oh BTW, some were only 300MB in size.

your comment about 1080P games can only fit on bluray disc are based off of FUD


RE: Finally
By RubberJohnny on 8/9/2007 6:15:01 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
And that requires 1080p size textures. Which a DVD doesn't really have room for.

Thats funny, i've played lots of PC games at higher res than 1080p and they have all fit on a DVD. Could this be yet another case of FITCamaro talking BS?


RE: Finally
By therealnickdanger on 8/9/2007 10:41:18 AM , Rating: 3
Assuming you have a 1920x1080 progressive display that can accept 1080p over component, VGA, and HDMI and you have selected 1080p/1920x1080 from the video settings:

The storage medium has nothing to do with rendered resolution - especially when it comes to output resolution with the Xbox360.

1. The hardware video scaler built into the 360 will upconvert (interpolation) EVERYTHING less than 1080p to 1080p before sending it to the display. This is completely seperate and AFTER the video image has already been rendered in its programmed resolution. So whether the game is programmed for 480p, 720p, or 1080p, the final image you will see will be 1080p. The only situations you can argue are "true 1080p" are where the game is being rendered at 1920x1080 resolution. So far, there are only a handful of games that support this and another handful in the pipeline.

2. Unlike PC games, 360 games are designed for specific hardware in mind and will run at the programmed resolution (whatever it is) so they will come with textures specifically designed for whatever that resolution is. They only need to fit one library of textures onto the disc - unlike a PC game (also on DVD) that not only stores ultra-high resolution textures, but several lesser fidelity variations.

The 360 also has standard and proprietary lossless and lossy image compression algorithms built into the GPU for on-the-fly texture decompression of up to 1,000:1 (theoretical, I'm sure). The compressed textures are loaded directly into memory (saving space) and decompressed by the GPU as needed (saving CPU power). It's an extremely efficient system in that regard. So the 360 has one set of compressed textures on the DVD that it will decompress as needed while a PC will store multiple variations of either compressed or uncompressed textures (depending on game engine) on the hard drive.

3. DVD is showing its limitations, there's no doubt. In an interview with CVG, Bizarre Creations admitted that they wanted to create seperate textures for day and night for each city in the upcoming PGR4, but they couldn't fit them all. Fortunately, through a combination of console flexibility and developer ingenuity, they simply improved their lighting engine to compensate, so we won't miss anything.

id software announced that their upcoming Rage game would require two DVDs for the 360 while only one BD-25 for the PS3. id loves high-res textures! We'll see if they figure a workaround without sacrificing quality, but we may see more and more 2-disc releases on the 360 because of storage limitations. Oh well, there were a lot of great games on the PS2 and PS1 that required multiple discs, it's nothing new.

However, neither of these scenarios limit the 360s ability to render games in 1080p. As with the PS3, texture detail and effects complexity determine the rendered resolution based upon performance. Just as you wouldn't select a resolution and texture detail level on your PC that bogs your game down to 20fps, a developer won't optimize for a resolution that the console can't properly render. Whatever the case, DVD won't hold back 1080p on the 360 anymore than Blu-Ray will assist the PS3 render 1080p. It's just a storage medium.


RE: Finally
By DingieM on 8/9/2007 10:58:40 AM , Rating: 2
I wished PC games would use compression more often with a higher degree.


RE: Finally
By afkrotch on 8/9/2007 11:54:40 AM , Rating: 1
Actually, the TV has to be able to support 1080p over that specific connection.

There are TVs out there don't even support HD resolutions over analog connections.


RE: Finally
By aju on 8/8/2007 8:16:51 PM , Rating: 2
1080p games on a 360 should not be a problem as the video tech being used was unmatched by any mainstream video card until ATI released the 2900xt. Both the 360 and PS3 were way ahead of their time compared to the games available at launch. Its all conjecture anyway. Microsoft has always maintained they could do 1080p when they felt the need. Your right, there are no 1080p games out, but when there are it should handle it just fine. Besides, the real issue is analog vs digital. If the 360 outputs the format that your HD LCD or plasma TV supports natively (720p, 1080i, 1080p), it will look far better than if it is converted to analog to send over component or VGA cables and then converted back to digital by the TV's signal processor so that it can be displayed. Since most HDTVs’ pictures are natively digital you are better off with a digital interface. Each time you covert the format from digital to analog you loose quality.


RE: Finally
By afkrotch on 8/9/2007 12:08:04 PM , Rating: 1
You apparently don't know what you are talking about.

The Xenos and the RSX are laughable when compared to last gen of vidcards. Neither the Xenos or the RSX could be a 7900GTX, let alone a 7800GTX.

Unmatched until the 2900XT game out. You're crazy.


RE: Finally
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 1:11:24 PM , Rating: 2
and apparently you dont know what you are talking about.
the 2900 is very much based on the Xenos design, memory controller aside, the way thnigs are processed are a bit different compared to a PC, but as DingieM explains in his later posts, Xenos is essentially an early edition of the r600 (2000* series) with 16 shaders disabled.

you are right about RSX, but not Xenos. Sony relies more on the cell processor to do the dirty work rather than raw gpu power.


Grammar Mistake
By aurareturn on 8/9/2007 4:05:55 AM , Rating: 2
Shacknews readers finds an HDMI port on his new Xbox 360 Premium
Can anyone spot the mistake?




RE: Grammar Mistake
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 8/9/2007 8:54:49 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, too many plurals.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 9:24:35 AM , Rating: 2
I's dunnos whats you's are's talking's about's


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 10:30:30 AM , Rating: 2
Shacknews readers finds an HDMI port on his new Xbox 360 Premium

It is corrected below.

Shacknews' reader finds a HDMI port on his new Xbox 360 Premium.

Added the ' on the end of Shacknews, removed the s off of readers since "his" refers to just one person, and change an to a because you use "an" before a word staring with a vowel and "a" before a word starting with a consonant. There are exceptions to the last rule, but not in this case.

No, I am not an English major. I just abhor grammar errors.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 10:41:41 AM , Rating: 2
want to write my thesis?


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 10:49:12 AM , Rating: 2
What's the going price? :)


RE: Grammar Mistake
By bplewis24 on 8/9/2007 11:08:17 AM , Rating: 2
"an" is actually appropriate in that sentence.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/an

Note the site specifically uses words beginning with "h" as an example twice.

Brandon


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 11:19:09 AM , Rating: 2
That is only true with words beginning with a "weak h" as the examples show.

Hour
Historian

Those are two common words. That is because the H is followed by a vowel.

HDMI

The H is not followed by a vowel.

Would you say "a hand" or "an hand"?


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 11:21:15 AM , Rating: 2
**Need Edit Feature

The word "hand" does not have a weak H as the other examples do. Thus, using "a" instead of "an" is appropriate.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By aos007 on 8/9/2007 12:14:06 PM , Rating: 2
As an ESL speaker, I was always wondering about this - usage of "an" before words not starting with a vowel - thanks for clarifying it!


RE: Grammar Mistake
By MonkeyPaw on 8/9/2007 9:13:44 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, when you pronounce letters, you have to ignore the fact that the letter is a consonant or a vowel. When people see "HDMI," they see an acronym and say something more like "ache-dee-em-eye." You see, "H" starts with an "A" sound. Need more examples? Give me an "F" or an "L," or maybe an "M" or an "N." Better yet give me a "U."

Get the idea?


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 9:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
The problem arises when you choose to use the Long A sound "aaa" or the Short A sound "ahh".

I did find it interesting that if you use "High-Definition Multimedia Interface" instead of HDMI, then "a" makes much more sense than "an".

A High-Definition Multimedia Interface or An High-Definition Multimedia Interface?

According to the same rule, it's really up to the speaker to say "a" HDMI or "an" HDMI.

Yet another reason why spoken English and written English differ so much. I was referring to written English while you were referring to spoken English.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By MonkeyPaw on 8/9/2007 10:48:47 PM , Rating: 2
Acronyms run amuck, especially in the tech industry. Maybe it's just me, but when I read "CPU," I don't say in my "Central Processing Unit," I say the letters. Same with GPU, IMC, HT, HDMI, DVI, DVD or any other acronym that can't be pronounced like a word (RAM, DIMM, etc.). Funny enough, I didn't even realize that's what HDMI stood for. I guess I've never cared enough about the high-def movement to think about it.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By bfonnes on 8/11/2007 3:33:08 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry, but, if I say a HDMI, then I would sound like a tard, or as if I'm stuttering. :) All joking aside, regardless of the rule, sometimes I just say what sounds better. Just like the a 'U' example earlier.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By InsaneGain on 8/9/2007 12:58:07 PM , Rating: 2
Why does Shacknews need a ' on the end? A ' after a plural "s" is implying plural possession as in "my parents' car". Their is no implication of plural possession in Shacknews.
And I think "an" before "HDMI" sounds fine because phonetically HDMI starts with "ache" which is a vowel sound, regardless of technically starting with a consonant. Saying "a HDMI" just sounds awkward.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 1:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
The person is a Shacknews reader. You are one of DailyTech readers or one of DailyTech's readers?

Don't say the long A, say the short A. It doesn't matter if is sounds phonetically fine with "an". Grammatically, it should be "a".


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 1:06:24 PM , Rating: 2
**Need Edit Feature

The ' after the s does not imply plural possession. If a word ends in s, you place the ' after it without an additional s.

The Giants' outfielder just hit #757 a day after #756 or the giants's outfielder just hit #757 a day after #756?


RE: Grammar Mistake
By InsaneGain on 8/9/2007 1:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
OK, I wasn’t an English major either. My major had to do with numbers and formulas. But I didn’t say it should be "Shacknews’s" because I said there shouldn’t be an apostrophe at all because there isn’t an implication of possession in the first place. I guess you are interpreting that the reader is in Shacknews' possession though, which I guess is possible. But I interpreted “ShackNews” as an adjective describing the noun “reader” as in the statement “General Motors driver Jimmy Johnson won the race” but I can see how “General Motors’ driver Jimmy won the race” could also be correct, although having a subtly different implication.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 2:49:50 PM , Rating: 2
I see your point as well. You are right, I took it to mean that the reader "belonged" to Shacknews.


RE: Grammar Mistake
By bfonnes on 8/11/2007 3:34:57 PM , Rating: 2
DailyTech owns uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu


RE: Grammar Mistake
By MeTaedet on 8/10/2007 10:02:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

Added the ' on the end of Shacknews, removed the s off of readers since "his" refers to just one person, and change an to a because you use "an" before a word staring with a vowel and "a" before a word starting with a consonant. There are exceptions to the last rule, but not in this case.

No, I am not an English major. I just abhor grammar errors.


Do you, then? Well, let's see here.

I believe this issue has already been addressed, but there are two different versions of the indefinite article, and this has been brought about for promotion of euphony. 'A' is used where 'an' would produce a discordant awkward pause and vice versa. So, when there is a subsequent vowel sound 'an' is used, not when the spelling of the subsequent word indicates that the positive letter of the word is a vowel. That "HDMI" begins with an 'H' is, therefore, irrelevant.

It is by no means necessary to add "'s" to "Shacknews" since "Shacknews" is being used as if an adjective ("of, relating to, or belonging to Shacknews"), even though it's properly classified as a proper noun. Words change function all of the time in this same manner. For example, the phrase "a lot," a nominal phrase, can be used adverbially, as in "I like him a lot". Adjectives, nouns, adverbs, and, sometimes, even prepositions can be converted to any of the prenominate. I regard this as result of the maturing of a medieval practice which in turn sought to emulate the Latin language which had made of the doing of such things a mos, one such practice involving the taking of, usually, the singular accusative neuter of a second declension adjective or noun and the employing of it as if an adverb, and sometimes, in the case of such an adjective, the employing of it as if a noun. If memory serves, such Latin words so used fall under the term "cognate accusative".

Generally the people that "know" "a great deal" about the English language or language in general (e.g. that there is a difference between your and you're, or its and it's; or that "could of" is incorrect; or what the difference between adjectives, adverbs, and nouns is; and all of the other piddling and hopelessly remedial tidbits of knowledge) and who presume to correct others in a harsh and peremptory way, in truth, know next to nothing about it. Language is infinitely more complex and tortuous than most people could ever dream, and it is only in profound ignorance that an individual could ever come under the delusion that what is taught in public schools even touches the surface of the corpus of knowledge concerning language than one can gain through years of labor and toil. One can master computer languages in no time at all. If so, then how much more complex are human languages, if the average person can spend a lifetime trying to acquire a single one (notwithstanding individuals going from English to Spanish, which may as well be referred to as English II, it being to English what C# is to C++)? Vastly more. (In my opinion, this is mostly because languages, especially English, in practice lack consistency and logic, and I impute this to the emulation of literary works, especially classical, which take all manner of liberties, most saliently ellipsis, to produce a poetic and flourished effect. The authors knew what they were doing. Modern emulators do not, however, and misuse these poetic expressions, violating rules of logic and syntax. Many modern set phrases, which today are erroneously taken to be syntactically complete, can be traced back to a single use by a famous and defunct author. This problem can be further attributed to the absence of case markings, which if present render a language something analogous to a watch with a clear casing which admits of the observance of its inner workings. A language almost wholly devoid of visible case distinctions, as English, can be compared to a regular watch, the knowledge of whose internal workings must be deduced from the observation of their effect - that is indirectly. Such deductions are not apt to yield the most exact and accurate understanding of the watches internal workings. If you wish to gain a better understanding of language, turn to Latin or some other language with a rich system of nominal and adjectival declension - the clear casing in my analogy. By the time you have finished you'll likely have a better understanding of English than any English major, who, or so it seems, know nothing substantive about the language's syntax.)


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/11/2007 7:54:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is by no means necessary to add "'s" to "Shacknews" since "Shacknews" is being used as if an adjective ("of, relating to, or belonging to Shacknews"), even though it's properly classified as a proper noun.


I didn't add "'s" but just "'". The original story states

" Original Story:> Shacknews community member Magus reported finding an HDMI port on an Xbox 360 premium console he purchased today at a Target store in Atlanta, Georgia."

I take that mean that Magus is a member (it's in the actual sentence) of Shacknews. That is the sole reason I put "'" on the end. The way I interpreted it is that possession in this case implies belonging to or being a part of something. Since the reader is a member (belonging to or being a part of) Shacknews, I put the "'" on the end. It may or may not have been intended that way, and I could be wrong. However, that's how I read it to be.

As far as the A versus AN, I stated before that it all depends on spoken versus written English in cases were the rules aren't cut and dry.

Besides, no one ever said that this or any one tech article has ever been perfect grammatically. It presented the information clearly enough for comprehension.

quote:
anguage is infinitely more complex and tortuous than most people could ever dream, and it is only in profound ignorance that an individual could ever come under the delusion that what is taught in public schools even touches the surface of the corpus of knowledge concerning language than one can gain through years of labor and toil.


That is exactly why I said that it's difficult to nail down all proper uses because of written versus spoken English.

"There are two great disappointments in life: Not getting what you want, and getting it."
-George Bernard Shaw

"Outside of mathematics, virtually all reasoning is tainted with rationalization, so whatever his choice, he will support it with "logical arguments." No wonder he's confused and demotivated! He can't trust his own reasoning, if it just finds a logical construct for whichever fear, desire or other feeling is strongest."

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Gillman10.html

So, even Latin was once all decided upon because it "sounded best that way" by everyone that was trying to come up with a language.

"Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth or the only truth."
-Charles Anderson Dana


RE: Grammar Mistake
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 1:09:03 PM , Rating: 2
I never would have thought there would be so many questions from this one thread. Good job OP :).

BTW, are you going to come back and comment?


no more reason for Elite
By Netscorer on 8/8/2007 6:59:35 PM , Rating: 1
The only things that were enticing buyers to buy Elite were HDMI and 80Gb of HD space. Now with HDMI being included in regular Premium edition, and the price difference between Elite and Premium growing to $90 why would anyone buy Elite?

Really, 60Gb of extra space is nice to have but unless you never delete what you load on the console - hardly necessary. And black color is actually a detriment to many who see it as old.




RE: no more reason for Elite
By augiem on 8/8/2007 7:08:37 PM , Rating: 2
Cuz it's black. :P

Looks cooler.

Oh well.


RE: no more reason for Elite
By mcturkey on 8/8/2007 7:59:37 PM , Rating: 4
Er.. The difference is $100, not $90. You get an extra 100GB of HD space, not 80GB or 60GB (you state each of those).

Somebody needs to open up their HDMI-equipped Premium and take some pictures. We all want to know if this is just the Elite motherboard, or the 65nm shrink.


RE: no more reason for Elite
By cbo on 8/9/2007 8:02:19 AM , Rating: 2
Not likely, they will be happy if the thing just works. I don't think they will risk it.


RE: no more reason for Elite
By InsaneGain on 8/9/2007 1:12:48 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah it will be harder to justify the Elite's higher price now. It makes me wonder if the Elite is just a limited time special edition.
Personally I think black is a better color for consoles than white, but I wouldn't pay much more for it.
I wonder if the new HDMI equipped Premiums have some kind of HDMI indication on the box.


RE: no more reason for Elite
By bkm32 on 8/13/2007 11:33:23 AM , Rating: 2
Not if MS includes built-in wireless reciever.


well
By cbo on 8/8/2007 6:59:23 PM , Rating: 3
Well maybe I will get one in return, since this is the second time I am sending my xbox back for RROD.




RE: well
By aos007 on 8/8/2007 7:44:58 PM , Rating: 3
I am in similar situation, waiting for MS to ship me a new console. I wonder what are the chances that

a) console is a refurb original (hence will die again eventually)
b) console is a modified refurb original with revised heatsink (hence may not die but will be loud and hot)
c) console is a new 65nm/HDMI model (in production since at least July 4 as we saw)


RE: well
By PseudoKnight on 8/8/2007 8:09:10 PM , Rating: 2
You better hope for (b) as your live account is tied to the hardware. Even when using the old HD you'll have disadvantages.


RE: well
By webdawg77 on 8/8/2007 9:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
When I received my 2nd console, I put on the HDD, and was good to go. There wasn't any problem at all.

The 2nd console is currently in for repair. I'm hoping for a (c) outcome :).


RE: well
By webdawg77 on 8/10/2007 5:53:35 PM , Rating: 2
**Update

I just received email about my console being shipped to me.

The end of the serial number is 73105 . That implies a manufacture date during the 31st week of 2007. That is only 2 weeks ago!

Hopefully, this will have HDMI. I am more excited about it possibly having the improved cooling :). I am not even going to being to believe it is 65nm though.


Sweet
By FITCamaro on 8/8/2007 6:30:22 PM , Rating: 2
More value for those who are not already 360 owners. Sucks for anyone who just bought one though. Of course if you're in your 30 day return policy, you can always exchange it.

One question is whether or not it comes with a HDMI cable like the Elite does.




RE: Sweet
By TheFro on 8/8/2007 6:48:52 PM , Rating: 2
The documentation above states:

"You can also connect to additional TV input types by using the Xbox 360 S-Video AV Cable, the Xbox 360 VGA HD AV Cable, or the Xbox 360 HDMI AV Cable (all sold seperately) ."

An included HDMI cable would be too nice...


RE: Sweet
By Spivonious on 8/9/2007 10:46:52 AM , Rating: 2
Who cares? I got an HDMI cable on Newegg for $5. The vast majority of people still don't have a TV that has an HDMI port so including the cable would be a waste.


RE: Sweet
By deeznuts on 8/9/2007 1:38:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who cares? I got an HDMI cable on Newegg for $5. The vast majority of people still don't have a TV that has an HDMI port so including the cable would be a waste.

True, I buy mine from www.monoprice.com

I think this was pointed out because Sony was ripped for not including HD wires "Ooh Sony claims high def but no high def wire boohooo"

It's fanboy crap. Lots of websites did the same thing.


RE: Sweet
By daftrok on 8/8/2007 6:51:01 PM , Rating: 2
It says its sold separately in the picture...so I'm leaning towards no.


My guess, still 90nm.....for now
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 6:37:16 PM , Rating: 2
There is nothing really stopping them from just putting the new revision mobo used in the Elite into these new "Premium" units. Just make the case white, stick the 20GB drive on it, and there you have it.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if the 65nm chips and purported quieter DVD drives were inside as well. But, I'm not holding my breath for that one just yet. We'll see.

I stil have my launch 360, and have been waiting for the cooler/quieter version to upgrade. Would love for that to happen soon. And, the HDMI would be a nice bonus.




By TOAOCyrus on 8/8/2007 6:39:45 PM , Rating: 2
Well maybe it took them a few months to get production of the new mobo high enough to make the change viable.


By CrystalBay on 8/9/2007 1:25:40 AM , Rating: 2
How can we tell when the 65nm are shipping?


By kilkennycat on 8/9/2007 12:11:12 PM , Rating: 3
If not... AVOID !!

(Can somebody at Anandtech open this HDMI version up and check its chip-set and board-layout)

Otherwise you join the mob awaiting the RRD failure, or worse still some non-RRD failure related to excess heat but not qualifying for the 3-year warranty coverage which is SOLELY applicable to RRD. For thermal reliability, the Xbox360 REQUIRES the 65nm upgrade AND a complete re-layout of the motherboard with larger CPU and GPU heat-sinks (regardless of the change to 65nm), plus those heat-sinks positioned well away from the DVD drive !! Since the Xbox360 heat sinks are not user-accessible for cleaning, they need to be bigger, since the fin-density must be kept low to avoid getting clogged up with lint and sticky crud. The addition of the extra GPU heatsink in the Elite is purely a speculative bandaid. It seems that the engineers contracted by Microsoft to do the hardware design of the Xbox360 completely missed out on their hardware-reliability training, or never ever were involved with thermal-reliability testing of any of their previous designs.




By webdawg77 on 8/10/2007 7:18:37 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/10/spot-the-hdmi-en...

"The packaging has more details, however, on what exactly is inside the case. A label clearly refers to the model as "Zephyr" – the codename for the Elite motherboard. It would appear that the purported 65nm "Falcon" motherboard has yet to make it into stores so, for know, HDMI and an improved heatsink is all you're getting."

More than likely, the answer is no to your question.


Agreed that 7.1 via HDMI is BS for newbies!
By bigpow on 8/8/2007 9:45:41 PM , Rating: 1
Toslink Digital is the only way to go!
Dedicated receiver, 42" 1080p LCD TV and VGA cable are all I have/need and very happy with the setup.

BS to 7.1 bla bla, HDMI 1.3 bla bla, whatever

PS3 has HDMI 1.3 but where are the games??
I played Motorstorm and RR, they look so dull




By rdeegvainl on 8/9/2007 3:48:10 AM , Rating: 2
Umm that is totally individual preference, alot of the ps3 games look awesome to me, lair, resistance, ninja gaiden sigma.
I have the cash to plop down on a 360 but am still saving for the ps3 600 dollar version. not actually going to buy it, but by the time i have the money saved, they should have a price drop.
the question i ask myself anytime i look at a 360 isn't where are the games, but where is the console, in the mail on it's way to get repaired? I'll consider it when the new 65 process comes out. that i am interested in.


Dangit!
By The Sword 88 on 8/9/07, Rating: 0
RE: Dangit!
By Moishe on 8/9/2007 7:53:11 AM , Rating: 3
How have you been screwed by buying a product and playing it for a year + and then having an updated product come out?

While all these other people have been wishing, wanting, contemplating, YOU have been playing games and enjoying yourself. You're not screwed to own a piece of hardware that was the best at the time you had it.


Coolness
By v1001 on 8/8/2007 8:15:25 PM , Rating: 2
Please be the new falcon version. That's all I'm waiting for. Someone rip one apart and find out please :)

That's nice that it has the HDMI port also. Isn't that needed for dolby true HD and other things for HD-DVD?




Sound through HDMI
By DingieM on 8/9/2007 5:07:31 AM , Rating: 2
Who has an elite and passes the sound through a (expensive) receiver instead of the separate toslink?

Currently I have my sound outputted via stereo cables and on the Dolby Pro Logic input on my receiver.
Although the sound is very good I don't know is better: sound via optical toslink or through HDMI (video included)?

The reason I listen through Dolby Pro Logic is because I don't have digital inputs on my receiver. Yes that thing is quite old but my Technics SA-AX7 really shines in the sound department. I also got Bi-Amp that adds to the quality.
So I don't want to sell my receiver because of its very good quality but I don't like it when I don't have digital inputs.
And I don't have a budget left. Oww have to pay for my 32" HDTV yet...




There are still rumors...
By Legionosh on 8/9/2007 9:37:43 AM , Rating: 2
..of an HDMI cable being made that will be compatible with the current port on the 360 (of course it's been a rumor for a while and we still have yet to see anything).

I am not sure how this would affect quality with the whole "analog to digital" conversion. But if it allows for true 1080p over HDMI then I guess that would be ok (as long as the cable isn't uber expensive). Of course that means I'll have to buy a 1080p TV to replace my current 42" 720p plasma, but that's what tax time is for...lol..

(but with 50" Plasma 720p TVs selling for roughly the same price that I paid for my 42"...hmm....higher resolution is great, but if I have to sit so close (I know there is a recommended viewing distance based on screen size..and I'd definitely have to get a TV a good bit smaller than a 50" for cost reasons) then it almost defeats the purpose of buying such a huge screen. Maybe I'll just sell the 42" to my brother or something, buy the 50" and be able to sit back a few more feet...hmmm...or just basically enjoy the Imax experience at home...lol..

Still it would be nice if that can get that working. I know the audio may not be able to be transmitted over that HDMI hybrid cable, but I'll live with that. I don't have a high end audio set up anyway (my ears aren't that attuned to the subtle differences that true audiophiles can hear, but like most people I enjoy a good sounding audio setup).

Just my two cents,
Kevin

legionosh@msn.com




¡Dailytech!
By housecat on 8/9/2007 10:19:04 AM , Rating: 2
Are you going to be the first ones to rip one apart and confirm 65nm GPU + CPU??




By aos007 on 8/9/2007 12:21:11 PM , Rating: 2
I would argue that this is much more important news to a lot of readers than say cracking open an iPhone. Yeah, it's probably not easy to locate a new one and it takes some skills and knowledge to find out is the chip inside new or not but isn't that the challenge and thrill of working in tech news?




Wow, well this helps too...
By Locutus465 on 8/9/2007 4:31:19 PM , Rating: 2
Almost enough to make me go out and buy one... Overall still a tad pricy, another $50 from the price would be nice. Probably end up having to wait until "Falcon" is actually available and MS actually has pricing headroom.




Any news?
By v1001 on 8/9/2007 11:50:32 PM , Rating: 2
Any word if it's the falcon or not?




By webdawg77 on 8/10/2007 12:08:54 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/08/10/look-on-th...

"Xbox-Scene found an Xbox 360 Premium box that featured the HDMI connection and confirmed that under the contents section of the box it lists "HDMI port" as a console specification."

"The 1st picture below (from one of the sides of the Xbox360 box) shows that the HDMI port is listed under the console specifications. So if you want to be sure your Premium 360 has the newly added HDMI port you now know what you have to look for."

"The 2nd pictures shows the sticker found on the other side of the box ... one word is very interesting here ... "Zephyr" ... which is the codename of the motherboard Microsoft used in the Elite SKU. This probably means that the new Premium consoles with HDMI port don't have the new Falcon motherboard yet (and thus probably not the new 65nm CPU/GPU either)."

Too bad the article didn't also look at the serial number to confirm which week of 2007 the console was produced.




who cares?
By FreshPrince on 8/9/2007 8:41:51 AM , Rating: 1
this would only be good news if the console itself comes with a built-in HD-DVD drive.




Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By LiptonGreenTea on 8/9/07, Rating: -1
RE: Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 8:55:19 AM , Rating: 2
Ha! right from the start eh? The only things ps3 had on the 360 from the start were hdmi (which most people didnt have and still dont have) and 40Gigs of hard drive space.
So now that the elite is out, and sony offers nothing more over the 360 other than blueray (you can buy an hd-dvd drive if you wanted) who do you think is playing catchup?

1. DVR- you think this is a coincidence? its to compete directly with the 360's extender capabilities
2. Online play - sony's system.. still in development, once again directly to compete with the 360's XBOX LIVE.
3. forcefeedback controller: big mistake not to pay royalties on this one, one of biggest fall backs of the ps3, amazingly a new controller with forcefeedback released.

now lets see what the 360 has changed.
1.hdmi
2.HD space on elite
3.oh shit theres nothing else


RE: Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By philsworth on 8/9/2007 9:58:16 AM , Rating: 2
What does the basic Xbox 360 do? A big noisy, hot box, plays offline only games up to 720p resolution and plays DVDs (badly). Also, it is prone to failure.

You want HD-DVD - pay extra
You want wirless connectivity - pay extra
You want a bigger hard drive - pay way more than ususal extra
You want a HDMI port - free OR buy a replacement console
You want to be able to play people online - pay extra

This could be a next gen experience, if next gen means poor quality, confusing and expensive.


By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 10:39:51 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
What does the basic Xbox 360 do? A big noisy, hot box, plays offline only games up to 720p resolution


lol where did you hear that? First off, there are just about as many native 1080p games on xbox360 than ps3 (Tennis for 360 for example is 1080p native). Second that number is not very high for both consoles either way.
Most crossplatform games that are available for ps3 are ported xbox360 games, so they are also upscaled from 720p. Infact, most games on the market for either console today are in 720p and chances are if they are 1080p native, they are sacrificing 60fps for 30fps.

You want HD-DVD - you want bd on ps3 you pay extra

You want wirless connectivity- you are right, 360 should come with wirelss, and it should not cost $100

You want a bigger hard drive - in the end who really cares, you still have to buy 2.5inch drives anyways for the ps3's which are not that cheap, you are better off streaming from your computer anyways... plus the new 360 comes with more hd space than the ps3.

You want a HDMI port - free OR buy a replacement console: component has always performed well for me, unless you are going to be watching HD-DVD's this is really a non issue for 80% of the people out there(only a problem because most tv's dont accept 1080p over component)

u want to be able to play people online - better than leaving it up to the manufacturer of the game to make their crappy online system, which they have to maintain. 60 bucks for 12 months is not bank breaker, and they are constantly improving the interface and system. Free content downloads are also available with xbox silver account .


RE: Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By DingieM on 8/9/2007 9:25:41 AM , Rating: 2
PS3 next-gen? What do you call that flaky graphics chip in the PS3 then? Right, its a simple old-school chip with unbalanced fixed pipelines that does not deliver. And, oh, its interconnected with a traditionel, old and bottleneck-driven approach to the main memory.
Next-gen? Right.

Only the Cell and Blu-Ray are next-gen feature-wise, but not performance-per-watt. And is added storage capacity like Blu-Ray absolutely necessary? Absolutely not! There are many options like good compression: Xenon (and Xenos) support hardware based (de)compression techniques that don't eat-up processor cycles.
I don't call compression next-gen but it will play an increasingly important role in the near future.

MS has a goal for its Xbox360: bringing next-gen games to the mass market for a somewhat affordable price. Still too high for most of us. Those people have a Wii.

That they didn't want to put much money for a good thermal design was an outright blunder. That is biting them back now. But they are improving, it shows they are willing to better serve its customers.


RE: Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 9:44:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right, its a simple old-school chip with unbalanced fixed pipelines that does not deliver

Wow.. don't bring this too far, the cell still has 7 spe's compared to the 3 core xbox, and each spe can still do two instructions simultaniously, just not two of the same instructions.. i.e it can perform 1 arithmatic instruction and 1 logic operation at the same time. So although it is still somewhat crippled, it still has 2x theoretical bandwidth and probably around 1.2x real life bandwidth. 360 can do around 1 teraflop, the ps3 (so i have heard) can do around 1.2 teraflops in real life situations.

So to consider it not next-gen, is probably an overstatement, as it is still more powerful than the xbox360. A misuse of power, probably, but who are we to judge ;)


RE: Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 10:15:04 AM , Rating: 2
He's talking about the graphics chip, not the CPU.

PS3 - RSX shares a lot of inner workings with NVIDIA 7800 which is based on G70 architecture. Since the G70 is capable of carrying out 136 shader operations per clock cycle, the RSX was expected to feature the same number of parallel pixel and vertex shader pipelines as the G70, which contains 24 pixel and 8 vertex pipelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX_%27Reality_Synthe...

A side note, the ATI Xenos chip in the Xbox360 seems to be close to the ATI X1900 series chip. Someone correct me if I am wrong please :).


RE: Proof that Xbox360 is not next gen
By DingieM on 8/9/2007 11:17:07 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
A side note, the ATI Xenos chip in the Xbox360 seems to be close to the ATI X1900 series chip. Someone correct me if I am wrong please :)

No they are really totally different beasts.

Performance-like people tend to compare those two to get a rough picture how the Xenos could perform.
Xenos is a multi-chip approach whereas the computational post-processing effects are done on the eDRam (4xAA effectively "free", depth-calculations etc.) that is interconnected via a 256Gb/s bus to the main core of the Xenos. This main core has 48 dynamic pipelines, 3 groups of 16 each. Unified Shader Architecture.
Buswidth between graphics subsystem and Xenon CPU subsystem is only 128 bit whereas the 1900XT has 256bit.
So the 1900XT (has NO unified shader architecture) has to use rough bandwith to get its performance while the Xenos has the advantage of having much more efficiency.

Next the Xenos has the Tesselation engine that is now also stuffed in the HD2900 familie of AMD/ATI. Tesselation engine is "mandatory" with DX10.1 or 11 but correct me if I'm wrong.
This tesselation engine can subdivide low-count polygons in higher order polygons that look much detailed and better, 15x the performance of emulating that with a CPU.
So all in all I give the Xenos definitely the edge performance and feature wise, but the overall architecture of the PC allows it to use much more main memory.

How many T/G-flops a device can do, its always very far away from the real performance a device can do. Want to get performance: remove bottlenecks and that's exactly what the engineers did when designing the Xenos.


By DingieM on 8/9/2007 11:25:10 AM , Rating: 2
I reminded me reading an article that said the HD2900 family IS the Xenos with one shader group (16) added. Apparently (that is what I read), to improve yields of the Xenos the 16 shader units were disabled leaving only 48 left. Now the Xenos is like the HD2900 a superscalar architecture that either does 4d or 5d calculations, I mean shader calculations with 4 or 5 parameters at the same time. To compare with nVidia G80: they use 1 parameter at the same time but have 128 shaders. To compare to R600: they have 64x5=320 for a easier comparison with the G80. Now the puzzle is completing here: Xenos is an early R600 with 16 shaders disabled.

Quite an astonishing graphics subsystem, this Xenos. Quite its time far ahead.


By Locutus465 on 8/9/2007 5:07:09 PM , Rating: 2
I always deffined a next gen system as being one that offers something that the previous generation didn't... The 360 qualifies based on true HD graphics, and enough processing power to allow gamers to add featuers you couldn't get to work well on an original x-box. PS-3 qualifies for the same reasons, plus the limited responsiveness to moving the controller around. The Wii also qualifies based on the amazing control system, virtual console and extended functionality in the form of channels.

If you like the PS-3, then hey great... But by no means does a console have to have the exact same feature set as a PS-3 to be "next gen".


How Many Versions Are There?
By elmikethemike on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 7:31:39 PM , Rating: 5
Yea, totally correct....OH WAIT.

PS3 20GB
.
PS3 60GB
.
PS3 80GB
.
PS3 with "Emotion Engine"
.
PS3 without "Emotion Engine"

Let alone back in the PS2 days....

PS2 with no Progressive Scan
.
PS2 with Progressive Scan
.
PS2 with HDD capability
.
PS2 Slim with no HDD capability and built in ethernet port

Yea, you're right. Sony NEVER updates their consoles. What was MS thinking???


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By elmikethemike on 8/8/07, Rating: -1
RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 7:53:48 PM , Rating: 1
Am I retarded?? No. Are you??

But, if you have "corrections" feel free. What was wrong with the comment I made?


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Scabies on 8/8/07, Rating: 0
RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 8:06:42 PM , Rating: 5
Please take note, I wasn't defending MS. If it were up to me, there would be just one version of the Xbox 360 and one version of the PS3, and that would be it. But, that isn't the case now, and hasn't been for some time. He implied that Sony doesn't make updates or revisions. I was merely showing him that they have, a lot.

And, not just in this current generation. Keep in mind, they already have these various versions of the PS3 (20, 60 w/EE, 60 wo/EE, 80) all well within the first year of production. It did take the Xbox 360 over a year to see any changes.

But, consoles are ALWAYS updated and revised. Thats nothing new. Not for MS, not for Sony, and very much not for Nintendo. It happens all the time. Buy a console, and enjoy it.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By slashbinslashbash on 8/8/2007 11:16:01 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see why this is a big deal at all. As you say, consoles are always updated and revised. Sometimes not for the better. Nintendo took away the component video output after the first year or so of GameCubes. The PS2 had numerous minor revisions. In Japan, the first versions came with FireWire/1394 ports and no IR ports for the DVD remote. Then the 1394 was deleted and the IR was added. Some of the PS2 Slims had separate EE and GS chips, while later ones had the two chips combined onto a single die.

Overall hardly anybody would notice, and nobody would really care, about the internal mods to the Xbox 360 if the Xbox 360 didn't have the problem with the RROD. It's a shame that such a big problem came out in the Xbox 360 and it speaks to a rushed design and poor quality control at MS, and it forces us to care about exactly which motherboard revision (and optical drive as well) is inside our consoles. If the overheating/RROD/scratched-disc problems didn't exist, they'd just be a curiosity.

And no, I'm not an MS hater. I've got an Xbox, PS2, GameCube, Wii, and DS. I will get a PSP, PS3, and Xbox 360 eventually. Every system has its pluses and minuses, and (more importantly) its own exclusive games. I bought an Xbox for Project Gotham and Halo. I bought a PS2 for Guitar Hero, Rez, and Gran Turismo. I bought the 'Cube for Metroid, Pikmin, and Donkey Konga. I don't expect this coming generation will be any different.

Anyway, good on MS for upping the warranty on Xbox 360's, but shame on them for designing it so poorly that 1/3rd fail in the first place. *shrug*

I'm not so happy with Sony's substituting the 80GB for the 60GB with the EE chip. I'm also kinda pissed that MS hasn't made more of an effort in the backwards compatibility arena. It looks like I'll be keeping my original Xboxes forever. Oh well. I'll just have to daisy-chain the source selector boxes, as the back of my A/V receiver is already all plugged up.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 11:31:36 PM , Rating: 2
"...I'll just have to daisy-chain the source selector boxes, as the back of my A/V receiver is already all plugged up."

HA, totally!! I'm the same way. I have an older Denon receiver, and it works great. But, I'm clean out of inputs. I have one of the new Sony 3300ES receivers coming, whenever they ship, soon I hope. That will help. There are tons of inputs on it. And, it will take any input, upconvert to 1080p, and output it through the HDMI. That will be nice, whenever it shows up.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By feraltoad on 8/9/2007 1:52:59 AM , Rating: 2
That model doesn't have Dolby TrueHD or DTS THX2:SuperXfi:Balls-of-FIRE. Which is surprising since it is gonna go for a grand. You might know this and don't care but if you don't and you do, since you do have a HD player, u might wanna get something with the new formats.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/9/2007 8:12:01 AM , Rating: 2
"You might know this..."

I do.

"...and don't care."

Correct again.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By pjpizza on 8/9/2007 3:19:51 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Buy a console, and enjoy it.


The best comment I've seen on Dailytech in weeks :).


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By elmikethemike on 8/8/2007 8:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
Actually Sony only has three PS3s.

20GB
60GB
80GB

The lack of EE is the 80GB. Of course if you want to count the European one, their 60GB version doesnt have the EE either. But I was only counting american models.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 8:27:40 PM , Rating: 2
"Actually Sony only has three PS3s."

Yea, ONLY 3. Thats totally fine. Any more, and its getting out of hand. HA

Seriously, I'm glad I got my 20GB PS3 at launch, and am done dealing with this. Just give me some damn games Sony.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By aju on 8/8/2007 8:24:34 PM , Rating: 2
Get a grip. Things change. Its part of life. Even Nintendo has various versions of game boys. Look how much LCD monitors have changed in the past few years. I suppose we should all go back to 14" monochrome CRTs if that will make you happy.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Scabies on 8/8/2007 8:48:32 PM , Rating: 1
I'm trying not to take sides, I understand that change is a necessary thing (except for the original De-Lorean), but when it comes to people making an irrational argument with inaccurate supporting material, I have to get on defense (or offense.) More often than not, this leaves me battling the whored (yes I know, sp.) of, not 360 fanboys, but PS3/Sony haters. I consider myself neutral, owning all 3 "next gen" systems (360-elite, ps3-20gb, and wii). PS3 has select few quality games at the moment, but rocks the multimedia platform/value sector. 360 has great games, but is plagued by its historic failure rate. Wii is Wii, not hi-def, but quirky and entertaining.
For me, its not ps3 v 360, its fact/logic v wtf?


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/8/2007 11:18:52 PM , Rating: 2
"...people making an irrational argument with inaccurate supporting material"

I really hope thats not me you elude to. I totally don't intend to sound like that, and apologize if I did. Like yourself, I am an owner of all 3 current consoles, and have no real affinity to either one more than the others. I just like games. I'm very platform agnostic.

I was merely making a point that, while it sounded like he seemed to think Sony is immune to console revisions, they very much are NOT. No console maker is. The PS1 went through it, the PS2, the 'Cube, the Xbox1, the DS, PSP....and so on. It happens. Get over it people.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By TheBaker on 8/9/2007 1:21:30 PM , Rating: 2
it seemed pretty clear to me that he was saying that MS fanboys could no longer rip on Sony for having so many consoles now that the 360 has a bunch too. The original post of this title said nothing about a low number of Sony consoles, just that MS people don't have leg to stand on if they criticize Sony for the same thing anymore.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/9/2007 2:26:39 PM , Rating: 2
Here is his statement...

"No one can no longer rip on Sony and the PS3.....MS has put out so many different versions of 360 that it's confusing. Why can't they just pick one and go with it?"

That sounds clearly to me like he is saying, because MS has many different versions of the 360, its now out-of-line to question Sony for doing basically the same thing.

Do two wrongs make a right?? If people, himself included, are mad and/or frustrated with MS having different versions of a console, they need to share the same feelings with Sony. They both do it. But, just because they are both doing this, that doesn't mean we can't question them for it. Either of them.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 2:46:17 PM , Rating: 2
i don't understand why people care? they have 3 price points to adhere to peoples different needs. You are only going to buy one in the end.. why does it matter to you if you have more choice? It would save MS money to only have one version, but it doesn't help any of you one bit whatsoever.

I for one was actually a bit pissed off when sony dropped their 20G model, as the price was perfect for my needs.

If you are just pissed off they keep updating to a newer 'better' version, well thats called progress, and happens with every video game console, let alone most other products during their lifecycle.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Keeir on 8/10/2007 3:55:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
i don't understand why people care? they have 3 price points to adhere to peoples different needs.


I think the base fear is that games will be developed for a console that will require a new significant investment in hardware to function. While this is nothing new for the PC gamer who needs to update thier machine, this would be relatively new in the Console market. For example, GTAIV may require a hard drive for a 360 user. All those people who bought Core versions thinking there was a "cheap" way to play all the best games would have to purchase the ~$100 dollar upgrade to a hard drive to play GTAIV. Adding more and more versions that differ in capacity just add to this fear. For example, I think many early purchases should be concerned that Microsoft may release a 360 with a HD-DVD drive and many of the best games would be unplayable although the other parts of the system would remain unchanged... Microsoft seems to have created the most of this fear this generation by significantly and consistenity including different capacities in thier different models. Nintendo on the other hand rarely releases new capacities in hardware updates, but improves user experience of these capacities. I see Sony being inbetween Microsoft and Nintendo... occasionally making changes to capacity, but usually focusing on improved experience.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By FITCamaro on 8/8/2007 11:52:39 PM , Rating: 2
You realize the PS3 will also be transitioning to a 65nm process right?

And the Halo 3 model is a limited time thing. It will not become a standard model. Its just a promotion for Halo 3 geeks who have to have anything with the Halo logo on it or Halo theme. I love Halo. But I wouldn't pay extra for a paint job. I would hardly call a Premium system with a paint job on it an entirely new model.

And why the hell are you arguing about how many models there are of something. Is giving consumers a choice a bad thing? Should they be like Sony and have one single overpriced SKU? The PS3 might pack a lot of stuff in for the money. But its still seen as a games console first by the majority. Most parents out there are going to go with the cheaper one. They don't care that it has wireless, can run Linux, etc. Their little brat is whining for a high def games console so they'll get them the cheapest one they can find to shut them up.

Me personally. If I was a parent who was not into gaming and my kid was whining for even a $400 system. I'd tell them to go get a job and buy it themselves. I'll spend that kind of money on myself. I wouldn't spend it on my kid so they can not do their homework.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By JimFear on 8/9/2007 2:48:24 AM , Rating: 1
But the 65nm one will only have 65nm CPU/GPU, its very likely it wont have any additional hardware ports or anything as it came with everything built in from the start, the only thing I could ask for would be a USB port round the back but thats it.


By FITCamaro on 8/9/2007 8:51:53 PM , Rating: 3
You're just reaching for anything you can aren't you.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 9:14:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
the only thing I could ask for would be a USB port round the back


Did I miss something? The system already has one USB port in the back.


By webdawg77 on 8/9/2007 9:16:04 PM , Rating: 2
**Need Edit Feature

I guess you mean the PS3. Yes, no USB ports on the back. What's up with that?


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By afkrotch on 8/9/2007 12:14:27 PM , Rating: 1
Huh?

20 gig PS3 EE
60 gig PS3 EE
60 gig PS3 no-EE
80 gig PS3 no-EE

4 total made. Course, as the 20 gig is no longer around, that's only 3 versions. Soon, the 60 gigs will disappear, and we'll be left with 1 version.

There's a difference between different versions through time and selling all the different versions all the time.

Microsoft plans on continuing to sell a Core, Premium, and Elite.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By archcommus on 8/9/07, Rating: 0
By omnicronx on 8/9/2007 9:22:38 AM , Rating: 3
Does progress piss you off? If you buy something 2 years before you can not expect it to have the same technology. Everyone knew these revisions would eventually come along, nobody forced anyone to buy a 360 on release date. Two years is a long time in the console world, and personally i would be mored pissed off if they did not make any changes.

Gameplay is the same, and the difference between component and hdmi is negligible for most people. So really in the end all they are doing is listening to customer demand, and what did the customers demand? hdmi.. without it, more and more people would eventually switch over to the ps3 camp.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/9/2007 9:27:05 AM , Rating: 2
"...I would be pissed. Adding new stuff so frequently convinces customers to wait at least 2 years before buying a new console."

You better just find a new hobby then. They all do it, and will continue. Tech stuff advances, prices fall, get over it.

Should I be pissed that there is a new Infiniti G37 coupe coming out soon, after I just bought a G35 Coupe a few months ago?? No. My car is still very nice, and I enjoy it a lot. That doesn't change because a new model is around.

Same with consoles/computers. Is Gears of War somehow not fun now that there is a console out there with available HDMI?? No. Can I not play Forza without HDMI?? No. The games are still fun, and you can still play them.


RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By archcommus on 8/9/07, Rating: 0
RE: How Many Versions Are There?
By Circle T on 8/9/2007 2:58:42 PM , Rating: 2
"With your car example, that is a completely different model so that also is not the same.

I probably didn't phrase that correctly, or you kind of missed my point. Regardless, I understand that the new G37 Coupe, while just an evolution, is a brand new model after the G35 Coupe. I was merely making the point that things get better and advance over time. If you wait, you'll always get a better item.

"I have to request a store employee to open the box for me to confirm that's the revision I'm getting. The name and model should be enough to indicate what you're getting, for ANY product.

Here is a quote from MS, via Kotaku...

" The retooled Premium 360, sporting the fancy HDMI, will sport an HDMI logo on the outside of the box, a Microsoft rep told Kotaku. "

I haven't seen one in stores yet, but I would imagine there is some small indication on the box. Kind of like Sony when they updated the PS2 with progressive scan, and added that little yellow "plus" in the corner of the box. But, as I've yet to see one, I can't say for sure WHAT the indication is.


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