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Print 126 comment(s) - last by Pythias.. on Jul 28 at 8:51 PM

This Chinese story is full of crazy twists

Apple is apparently hard at work cooking up what will become the successor to the iPhone 3G S.  In China, an army of parts designers are working on the phone's circuit boards and components.  Leading them is Foxconn in Shenzhen, a city in the industry-heavy Guangdong province near Hong Kong.

At Foxconn, a 25-year-old college graduate working in product communications, Yong Sun Dan, was in charge of the phone's prototypes.  On Thursday, July 9, he set out to pick up 16 prototype units from the factory.  He would later discover that one was missing according to DigitalBeat.  His theory was that he left it at the factory.  On Monday, July 13 he unhappily reported it to his boss.

Two days later, three Foxconn employees broke into his apartment and searched it.  Sun, according to an IM exchange, also may have been detained and physically abused during the search. 

The story came to an end of Thursday at 3 a.m. when Yong Sun Dan leapt from the window of his apartment building to his death.  The tragic story showcases the potentially deadly game of intrigue and leaks that blog sites play.  On the other side of the aisle, it shows the tremendous pressure that manufacturers like Foxconn feel about defending the secrecy of its star products.

Steven Lin, a Chinese blogger and marketer, perhaps sums it up best, writing:

Students [like Sun] have been studying in schools for years, and they have been carefully protected by their parents. They can’t endure such pressure - ‘their house being illegally searched,’ or ‘house arrests’ (if that’s true, according some reports news). Employees at these and other factories sometimes kill themselves simply because of the pressure from their daily jobs — you know what’s going to happen when they face more serious threats. Also, most young Chinese guys don’t have friends who are lawyers, so they don’t know how to protect themselves in the legal system. They won’t even look for help from the legal system. They will just endure the pressure, and finally find an extreme way to end all their troubles.

The security division at Foxconn -- the so-called Gu Central Security Division -- has been suspended without pay.  Foxconn Technology Group chief executive, general manager of business and Li Jinming has personally apologized as well to the loved ones of the deceased and says the death greatly distressed him.

In the end, the mysterious death of Sun stands out as a shocking story, even in a country that publicly executed its quality control minister for accepting bribes and allowing contaminated antibiotics onto the market a mere year ago.  Was the foul play greater than it seemed?  What really happened to the phone?  We may never know, but the story will hopefully pressure China's tech industry to reform its ways.

Updated 7/21/2009
Apple has released a statement to CNET regarding the death. "We are saddened by the tragic loss of this young employee, and we are awaiting results of the investigations into his death. We require our suppliers to treat all workers with dignity and respect," said Apple spokeswoman Kristin Huguet.



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Lept from window my A.....
By Ristogod on 7/21/2009 9:28:57 AM , Rating: 5
Some how I'm guessing he wasn't leaping, but rather being pushed.




RE: Lept from window my A.....
By SublimeSimplicity on 7/21/2009 10:11:54 AM , Rating: 5
Lets not jump to conclusions here.

Too soon?


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By nayy on 7/21/2009 11:27:19 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Too soon?


Yeap, you should have waited at least 50 comments


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By bodar on 7/21/2009 3:11:30 PM , Rating: 5
Maybe someone shouldn't have put the Conclusions Mat so close to the edge?

http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/humor/8e6c/images/2...

Yep, express train to hell, now leaving.


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By ImSpartacus on 7/21/2009 10:27:56 AM , Rating: 5
That's what I was thinking. Especially in a place like China. I just don't see someone like that killing themselves over something like that. However it would make a great cover-up story...


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By DPigs on 7/21/2009 11:50:48 AM , Rating: 5
It was Steve Jobs, obviously. He had some free time when he wasn't eating babies.


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By SiN on 7/21/2009 4:34:14 PM , Rating: 2
haha, i like this very much.

I feel sorry for the guy though, he admitted to something that he was obviously under pressure with. Yet when he takes blame and approaches his employer "the security section" of the company fucks him over like a rag doll. And then they get "suspended" for misbehaving.

Linking contracts and hard economic times, its not untrue that contractors want to keep their clients interests at heart, a leak could be damaging to future relations with their clients [apple] and further contracts.

What really sickens me though is this person felt the best choice due to amounting pressure was that he kill himself - we may find out he was thrown, i don't believe we will - if it was suicide due all to a lousy phone, the guy obviously needed help.

I think people need to re-evaluate how they're living their lives and how other nations people and people of their own nation could do with that little bit more help, and a little less complicated corporate living.

Arthur Guinness was a great man who gave back to the people for what they gave to him.


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By Oregonian2 on 7/21/2009 6:47:36 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, that he was "helped" to jump came to mind immediately. Perhaps a message to those who may lose another prototype.


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By knutjb on 7/22/2009 4:38:07 AM , Rating: 2
That's what I thought too, he had help with flying lessons.


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By SamBest on 7/22/2009 10:04:17 AM , Rating: 3
One thing you can do here is - Do not buy any Apple products until Apple gets it right.


RE: Lept from window my A.....
By Gyres01 on 7/23/2009 12:42:42 PM , Rating: 2
Huh....I guess i will have to keep my Motorola alittle longer so no one gets hurt.....


Stupid thing to die for...
By jskirwin on 7/21/2009 9:44:15 AM , Rating: 5
Let see, a gadget that will be out of date in two or three years vs. a (young and well-educated) human life.

Pathetic.




RE: Stupid thing to die for...
By amanojaku on 7/21/2009 10:35:13 AM , Rating: 3
Well, the article says he may have been physically abused, which is a curious choice of words. I reread it just to make sure it didn't say assaulted. This leads me to believe our friend killed himself over something no straight man wants to happen to him.


RE: Stupid thing to die for...
By Pneumothorax on 7/21/2009 12:00:12 PM , Rating: 4
Nope this poor guy was "Helped" over the ledge.


RE: Stupid thing to die for...
By phantom505 on 7/21/2009 12:44:13 PM , Rating: 2
What I don't get why it's a big deal to see what's in development. I'm sure it was such an important secret that the iPhone was getting a camera! They even caught up to what the competition was offering!

Tech and features, although I can see how it could be advantageous to keep secret, is usually a poorly kept one anyhow.

This is silly that stuff like this happens in the modern era.


RE: Stupid thing to die for...
By sxr7171 on 7/21/2009 5:43:19 PM , Rating: 2
I mean it's pretty much a given what's going to be in there. An ARM A9 dual core CPU and a next generation PowerVR SGX GPU. We know that such tech is coming out next year and we know Apple keeps up with it.


RE: Stupid thing to die for...
By alexfenway on 7/22/2009 10:43:58 PM , Rating: 2
I hear stories about apple security.


did i miss something?
By invidious on 7/21/2009 12:22:24 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
The tragic story showcases the potentially deadly game of intrigue and leaks that blog sites play.

How does this showcase anything about blog sites?

1) employee loses a product
2) company searches his house and threatens him
3) employee commits suicide
4) ?????????
5) blog site leaks are bad




RE: did i miss something?
By maevinj on 7/21/2009 3:15:00 PM , Rating: 5
Phase 1: Collect Prototype Iphone
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit!


Where's Dora when you need her?
By samoya22 on 7/21/2009 9:32:45 AM , Rating: 5
Swiper, no swiping! Swiper, no swiping! Swiper, no swiping!




RE: Where's Dora when you need her?
By Smilin on 7/21/2009 10:53:55 AM , Rating: 3
Oh maaannn!


Enough with all the victimization crap!!!
By Eris23007 on 7/21/09, Rating: 0
RE: Enough with all the victimization crap!!!
By phantom505 on 7/21/2009 8:18:54 PM , Rating: 4
So please explain... how does one lift oneself up by their bootstraps?

I've come as close as anyone I know, and I was reliant on society's good graces. If it wasn't for higher education grants and the offer from Uncle Sam to help subsidize my education in return for military service I'd be boned.

So get off your high horse.


By Eris23007 on 7/22/2009 6:20:59 PM , Rating: 1
Um... based on what little information you shared you seem like a good example of doing just that (lifting oneself up by his or her bootstraps, that is)...

I have no problem with society putting opportunities in place for people who are willing to accept responsibility for advancing themselves. To me, subsidized education in return for military service is an ideal example - an opportunity for someone who is willing to work hard and advance themselves. I'm not saying that should be the only way, just agreeing that it's a great example as it reinforces a sense of discipline and personal responsibility along the way.

Providing such opportunities is a good way to help people overcome the disparities and lack of fairness in life. I just want to see people accept responsibility for figuring out how to overcome whatever problems they have, challenges they face, etc. All the "it's society's fault" stuff really doesn't help anyone.

Providing opportunities like that doesn't solve the problems for a person - it just gives the person an opportunity to solve the problem for themselves.

In the case of someone whose mistake is serious enough to get them sent to jail, I do believe in the possibility of rehabilitation. Again, I think the first step is to accept full responsibility for your actions and understand the need to make amends. For those people who do so, it is in society's best interests to help them get back on their feet.

In those cases in particular it's essential that the underlying attitude be something along the lines of "OK, you screwed up, you've served time and accepted responsibility. If you're willing to make the commitment, here's a path to rebuild your life. It will be difficult and it will take time, but if you persevere you'll get there."

Finally, yeah, I got on my high horse there a bit. It was a rant and I overdid it. My mistake, and if I went so far as to offend you or anyone else, I'll take responsibility for my own actions and apologize. I hope I'm expressing myself a little better this time around.


RE: Enough with all the victimization crap!!!
By Jalek on 7/21/2009 8:36:24 PM , Rating: 2
What sympathy did you see in the story?
Were you reading the same one?
Put away the soapbox, Rush.

Nobody was giving this guy sympathy, they thought he was a thief and most likely his parents were going to be informed. He'd be shunned by the coworkers he spent every day with and would also be by his family. Is that too much sympathy for you?

The only other thing it could be is the pity since he offed himself, but I don't think he'll be going on welfare in America anytime soon.


By Eris23007 on 7/22/2009 5:54:15 PM , Rating: 1
Perhaps my comment would have been better posted in response to one of the "cowardice" comments, as it was more in response to the some of some of said comments, e.g.:

quote:
When this guy obviously couldn't handle the pressure/ridicule, more probably the stress his brain was under - seeing as the story already explains the pressure the workers are under ...


or

quote:
Am I the only person that read the article and interpreted this poor individual's suicide as a direct result of the violation he experienced from those that broke and entered his home and allegedly abused him?


The guy wasn't a victim. He screwed up and couldn't deal with the consequences. Instead of facing the music and dealing with the repercussions, he, as you put it, offed himself. Probably not the best solution to the situation, but for any one of a host of reasons it's what he did. I'm certainly sympathetic to his family & friends, having to deal with the aftermath, but all the "this poor guy is a victim of <society, company, culture, whatever>" stuff just gives him a pass for screwing up in the first place.

Far worse, that isn't forgiveness - people aren't saying "well, you screwed up, but people make mistakes, here's a way you can make amends, show contrition, and try to rectify the situation." Instead it's blame-shifting - "it wasn't really his fault" for whatever reason.

I'll cop to it - I could have made this point much more clearly - and my original post leaves out the notion of forgiveness, which is an essential element. All I'm asking is for people to admit when they make a mistake and ask for forgiveness instead of shifting the blame or asking for sympathy/pity/whatever. That's called taking responsibility for your actions. Take this as an example: I made some mistakes in my original post (rants have a way of getting off track) and am attempting to correct them. If I made mistakes in this one, which I probably did, I'll do my best to correct them again in a future post.

And BTW, despite the "Rush" reference, this isn't a political issue - it's a matter of personal, individual ethics. Not everything is an issue of right vs. left or Democrats vs. Republicans (I'm neither). Some things are just about being an adult and taking responsibility for yourself instead of looking to everyone else to do it for you.


:(
By AlmostExAMD on 7/22/2009 3:08:03 AM , Rating: 2
sad how a lot of you say it's cowardice to commit suicide,I would love to see you try do it,Not as easy as you think it is! Also the way you do it too,may be easy to pull a trigger,Not easy to jump out a high building or Samurai way of gutting yourself seppuku style, extreme pain!
As for this guy,who is to judge him? You sitting in your comfy chair,There may be a thousand good reasons why he chose that option you don't even know about! Especially in a communist country maybe his family would suffer even more or name shunned if he was alive,Who knows!
Ok over here get the sack,Get a fine or do jail time,Wouldn't want to know what happens over there for stuffing up!




RE: :(
By CSQuake on 7/22/2009 4:24:41 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know whether it is religious beliefs or ignorance that made so many label that poor chinese guy a coward and shot down so many comments from people trying to unlabel him yesterday.


RE: :(
By FaceMaster on 7/22/2009 9:36:59 AM , Rating: 2
Suicide is easy. I should know, I've done it a few times.


RE: :(
By Pythias on 7/28/2009 8:51:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
sad how a lot of you say it's cowardice to commit suicide,I would love to see you try do it,Not as easy as you think it is! Also the way you do it too,may be easy to pull a trigger,Not easy to jump out a high building or Samurai way of gutting yourself seppuku style, extreme pain! As for this guy,who is to judge him? You sitting in your comfy chair,There may be a thousand good reasons why he chose that option you don't even know about! Especially in a communist country maybe his family would suffer even more or name shunned if he was alive,Who knows! Ok over here get the sack,Get a fine or do jail time,Wouldn't want to know what happens over there for stuffing up!


1. Ninjas are mammals.
2. Ninjas fight ALL the time.
3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people


What a mess...
By rameshms on 7/21/2009 12:42:52 PM , Rating: 2
RIP Yong Dun San.

Foxconn now has to deal with the employee suicide (murder?) along with the investigation of missing iPhone. Dealing with the local police is probably not going to be big issue for them. However Apple is going to be on their backs for missing phone & the bad PR surrounding this story. I hope Apple punishes foxconn where it hurts most by taking away the business.




RE: What a mess...
By Boze on 7/22/2009 2:38:56 AM , Rating: 3
Well you can go ahead and kiss that pipe dream goodbye. I don't know how much Apple makes off iPhones, but I can tell you right now its worth far more than one human life. I'm sure this comment'll get modded down, since a lot of DailyTech readers love truth, but hate reality... and the reality of it is that Foxconn could throw a baby off their corporate headquarters and Apple would still use them as a supplier.

Especially if it was a meat-eating baby whose parents don't drive hybrids... Apple fans would probably view that as a great victory.


RE: What a mess...
By Chocobollz on 7/23/2009 1:44:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I hope Apple punishes foxconn where it hurts most by taking away the business.


I pretty much doubt they would do that because as you may already know, they certainly don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk (quoted from Steve Jobs himself). I bet they also can't make a $200 phone that's not a piece of junk, that's why they outsourced it to Foxconn. I think the whole problems with their inability to make a $500 computer which isn't junk lies in their greeds; the unusually high profit margin they demanded. How can they make a $500 computer which is not junk if they take 50% profit margin on it? That would make it an approximately $333.33 computer! LOL


You get what you pay for
By Casual Observer on 7/21/2009 9:54:56 AM , Rating: 5
If the chineese manufacturing infrastructure didn't act as though spying on new products was in their best interest, safe guards and protocols would be built to relieve the "pressure". Portuguese Colonists had long known this and recorded references to (translation) "Deal from China", ie. "if it's too good to be true, it usually isn't".




Now we know...
By IcePickFreak on 7/21/2009 10:27:46 AM , Rating: 4
Now I understand why companies like manufacturing stuff in China - there's no cap on the 'disciplinary action' clause.




RE: Now we know...
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 7/21/2009 6:29:22 PM , Rating: 1
In some situations I would kill to have the same policy here in the USA. There are quite a few people in the business world that need to remove themselves from the gene pool.


flotsam
By TETRONG on 7/21/09, Rating: 0
RE: flotsam
By DarkElfa on 7/21/2009 12:45:59 PM , Rating: 4
Ha, you can see Steve Jobs on his Palm Pre telling them to toss dude out the window.


Lost iPhone?
By Nobleman00 on 7/21/2009 12:32:25 PM , Rating: 2
I thought they had geolocation for iphones now so you could find them anywhere. I guess the dang thing didn't work.




RE: Lost iPhone?
By Jalek on 7/21/2009 8:06:32 PM , Rating: 2
If it's as accurate as the older iPhones for that.. it probably showed that it was in India. My iPhone's usually a couple of blocks off, whereas my other phones give position, attitude, and altitude..

There's so much info you can tell what someone carrying it into the bathroom's doing in there. I sorta prefer the more rough estimate of the iPhone.


wait, what?
By yacoub on 7/21/2009 3:19:17 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The tragic story showcases the potentially deadly game of intrigue and leaks that blog sites play.


What does anything in that news item have to do with blog sites or leaks to blogs? Not a single thing mentioned said anything about a leak or a blog.

I don't get where you jump to that conclusion from.

All the story "showcases" is how stressed out people can become who are responsible for the safe-keeping of important items.




Asking for problems.
By Earthmonger on 7/21/2009 5:27:49 PM , Rating: 2
Why the HELL were they entrusting these prototypes to some kid, anyway? I thought they were serious about security; where's the armored car and armed escort?




RE: Asking for problems.
By sxr7171 on 7/21/2009 5:50:30 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, it was a systemic problem. Kind of like what happens in hospitals. You can't leave certain things to the charge of one person. There need to be checks and procedures in place when the stakes are so high. The whole factory should have been RFID scanner equipped and these prototypes should have had RFID tags embedded. This was terrible management by Foxconn and really as a poster above says, they should have the account taken away. I will personally wait an extra month or 2 for the next iPhone for the transition delay it will cause. Human life is worth far more than getting your gadget on time.


By sapiens74 on 7/21/2009 5:15:21 PM , Rating: 1
After Vista that is...




By AnotherGuy on 7/22/2009 2:33:53 AM , Rating: 2
did any1 actually think that he might've BEEN thrown outa the window?


always where you least expect it
By tastyratz on 7/21/2009 9:38:33 AM , Rating: 2
It was behind the couch the whole time, like it always is.
oh well, oops.




Step in the right direction?
By tjr508 on 7/21/09, Rating: 0
By ClownPuncher on 7/21/2009 3:10:24 PM , Rating: 2
No doubt. What an appropriate article to pat China on the back. :/


Leapt? Or Thrown?
By Skott on 7/21/2009 2:19:20 PM , Rating: 2
Let the conspiracy theories begin!




They will do what...?
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/21/2009 3:33:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Employees at these and other factories sometimes kill themselves simply because of the pressure from their daily jobs — you know what’s going to happen when they face more serious threats.


How can they face more serious threats when they are dead?




apology
By mattclary on 7/21/2009 3:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Foxconn Technology Group chief executive, general manager of business and Li Jinming has personally apologized as well to the loved ones of the deceased and says the death greatly distressed him.


Oh, well as long as he is sorry...




What if...
By AnimeRomeo on 7/21/2009 5:00:59 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe he was supposed to pick up 15 prototypes, not 16.




Can't with for the new foxPhone
By Cr0nJ0b on 7/21/2009 5:22:45 PM , Rating: 2
I'm ready to buy the new FoxPhone when it's announced next year.




da
By Aoe2 on 7/21/2009 9:53:40 PM , Rating: 2
very insightful comments by those who all the facts. /sarcastic

lets get some facts/questions straight.
first, the person died over a prototype camera. second, did he do it? third, what were done to him.




What is the Matrix?
By Myrandex on 7/22/2009 9:35:15 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps he left for work that morning with only that message displaying in a commang line window...




i-SPLAT!!!!
By Blood1 on 7/22/2009 2:25:07 PM , Rating: 2
he was testing the new i-Splat app... It works...

\ /
>
p
-------
X X
>
-




Isn't This The Part...
By RosscoB on 7/23/2009 8:50:33 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't this the part of the movie that we find out he did not commit suicide but rather someone high on the food chain performed the theft so they could sell the technology or take over the world and he was going to report his findings?




OMG
By Kyanzes on 7/25/2009 11:56:47 AM , Rating: 2
Jeez boss, it seems there's a glitch in the factory report. We actually produced 15 units instead of 16. Hope it didn't cause any problems. By the way, where's Sun?




blood iphone
By kpxgq on 7/27/2009 3:15:20 PM , Rating: 2
so when is leonardi decaprio going to start shoting for "Blood iPhone"?




By kattanna on 7/21/2009 10:10:52 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
At least they take responsibility for their actions. I'm not condoning suicide here, but it would be nice if sometimes the guy who messed up would admit to it and resign or pay back damages. Honor is a good thing to have.


taking responsibility for ones action is NOT the same as killing oneself.

while at first glance, it may appear honorable, in fact its an act of total cowardice.


By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/21/2009 10:22:03 AM , Rating: 3
It is cowardice.

Suicide is a long-term solution to a short-term problem.

It would take balls to shoot an innocent woman in the head with a gun, but that doesn't make it brave.


By twhittet on 7/21/2009 1:48:14 PM , Rating: 3
Cowardice is a choice.

I agree 100%. If he so chose to kill himself when there were other options, he chose to be a coward.


By snikt on 7/21/2009 1:50:21 PM , Rating: 5
He wasn't afraid to die. He was afraid to live.


By Leirith on 7/22/2009 6:44:41 PM , Rating: 2
Probably both.


By Gul Westfale on 7/21/2009 4:16:47 PM , Rating: 5
how easy it is to judge another's predicament from the comfort of one's living room.


By Gul Westfale on 7/21/2009 5:48:45 PM , Rating: 5
you don't even know why he killed himself, if in fact he did kill himself and was not killed by someone else. you are just trying to sound tough on the internet. that might not make you a coward, but it makes you an idiot.


By Maxima2k2se on 7/22/2009 4:25:42 PM , Rating: 2
LMAO I do not give 2 sh*ts about what his reasons for doing it were. My point stands, if he did do it he is a coward. Suicide is the most cowardly selfish act that a person can commit against his self or family. There is nothing worth killing yourself over. Suck it up get the help you need and move on with life.

P.S. If I wanted to sound tough on the internet I would have said something like "Ill kick your a$$". Nice attempt though!


By Gul Westfale on 7/22/2009 10:50:40 PM , Rating: 2
you do not have a point. suicide is a personal thing, as is every decision made in life- only the one living that life can make that decision. some decisions are cowardly, yes; but others only seem so on the surface.

many spies or high-ranking soldiers committed suicide rather than surrendering, because in their view surrendering would have been the cowardly choice. erwin rommel killed himself to save his family.

you have no idea why this man did what he did, and while you may have made a different choice, he was unable to do so.

that you would call someone in such a situation of despair a coward shows a lack of empathy and a rush to judgment on your part.

everyone needs help every once in a while. it is not a shame to admit it. it is sad that no one was able to help him, or that he felt that no one was going to help if he had asked.


By chick0n on 7/21/2009 11:01:12 AM , Rating: 2
what kind of law did Cali had back in the late 1800s till 1945 ?

you might want to check.


By sxr7171 on 7/21/2009 5:09:54 PM , Rating: 4
Thanks for pointing that out. This is nothing new in the history of the world. It's just that we can today sit here smug and point our fingers.

Things were just as bad or worse right here in the US during the industrial revolution. Downright barbaric in fact. I'm glad I stayed awake in American History class just to be aware of that fact. The textile mills of Lowell, MA were the example we were given.

They too lived in their factories, they were treated like cattle, they were given up by society to produce and their lives had no value either. It happens whenever there is an industrial revolution in any country. Just because we are past that stage in our history doesn't suddenly give us the right to judge other cultures all of a sudden. If anything it is our need to consume like pigs with no concept of saving for tomorrow that causes this to happen in other countries. Just be thankful we found a way to make other places bear the burden of our insatiable appetite for consumer goods.


By theapparition on 7/21/2009 6:01:43 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry, but I have to disagree.

While everything you said is true, I have to point out one flaw in your logic.

You say not to point fingers, but as a more civilized society, wouldn't you agree that we have the responsibility not to patronize countries that have abhorant civil rights? Why perpetuate the cycle of violations?

One other thing as well.....when the industrial revolution hit the US and Europe, name one country that offered thier citizens higher standards of living. Atlantis doesn't count :P


By TSS on 7/21/2009 9:08:03 PM , Rating: 3
and i'll point the flaw out in your logic: you assume we are a more civilized society. i beg to differ.

sure, we don't have 10 year old children dieing every day in factories anymore. these days, we prefer to have chinese 10 year old children dieing in sweatshops every day. sure the chinese rape human rights, but who gives a damn, it's cheap (IMO, ethically, that's even worse).

sure we don't have to pay nigh everything we earn to our landlord. instead we pay nigh everything we earn to our landlord (bank's mortgage) AND our king (government) directly in federal income tax, as opposed to through the chain of nobility.

oh and try this out for the fun of it. cancal all your insurance, all of it, then sustain a mortal wound (something that'll kill you in a day if you don't get treatment) and go to a random hospital. lets just see how much life is worth these days.

finger pointing isn't a bad thing. pointing and not realizing your standing infront of a giant mirror, that's a shame though.


By theapparition on 7/22/2009 8:33:08 AM , Rating: 3
You've countered with no logic, just a random string of grievences. I was responding to the OPs assertion that we were once a "third world" country too. That wasn't true, since there was no "first world" country at the time. Plus the world was isolated and in no way interconnected as it is now. Times have changed, and the assertion that just becuase we had a history of human rights violations does not mean that we should turn a blind eye towards the current violations being committed right now.

Reguarding your first point of children dieing in foreign countries, that was exactly my point, so thanks for agreeing. We should chose to be better and not patronize those countries. We in turn would have to accept the higher prices that would entail. I for one refuse to buy a myriad of products from China, paying sometimes much more, but I also know the quality is better. However, in many instances, there is no alternative to Chinese made items.

Your second point is of little merit. With reguard to bank financing, work harder to pay off your mortgage. Why is that anyone else's problem. I don't have a mortgage because I do quite well.
While the entire founding of this country was based on leaving the aristrocrocy and gaining freedom and landownership, government taxes have been in effect for too long, and guess what, the american people consistantly vote for candidates that promote bigger government. You can whine all you want (myself included) but until your fellow citizens wake up and realize that bigger govenrment is bad, taxes, including property taxes, will continue to increase.

And your third point is completely off base. Hospitals are required to provide services to anyone in need. It is illegal and unethical for them to turn you away. Hospitals get paid by the states coverage for the uninsured, and surprisingly, that coverage is usually higher than the negotiated rates provided by insurance companies. Of course that money comes from the state taxpayers.


By akugami on 7/21/2009 3:57:02 PM , Rating: 5
I am Chinese and I take exception to that comment. I'm not saying the Chinese are the nicest people in the world, far from it in fact, but we're no more prone to torturing people than any other race or culture.

Look at the history books and you'll see most cultures and races have a bloody past. The Chinese are no exception. To a degree, China as it currently exists was brought about by western influences. Don't get me wrong, many of the influences were beneficial. Western countries improved upon many Chinese inventions and of course the original ideas or inventions were Chinese so China as well as the western countries benefited.

Then there was the negatives such as the Opium Wars where Britain defied China's drug laws and smuggled Opium into China. This eventually led to war and China's defeat as well as the spiral that signaled the fall of Imperial China and later the rise of Communist China.

While I'm not condoning some of the acts of the current Chinese government, the Chinese people as a whole are not evil nor do we relish in torturing our own or even other peoples.


By AlmostExAMD on 7/22/2009 3:10:01 AM , Rating: 3
Tibet?


By TSS on 7/22/2009 7:41:05 AM , Rating: 2
chinese people !== chinese government. they might be turning kapitalist, but it's still ways off from a democracy.


By alexfenway on 7/22/2009 11:13:42 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, having lived in china my experience is Chinese people are good and kind, and will take very good care of people in their relational circles. However, there seems to be a lack of compassion and concern for strangers, like they can't quite sympathize with others well. Perhaps that is why so many of their police officers are capable of horrible tortures of men and women who have only committed political wrongs and have not done anything immoral. In short, Chinese are some of my favorite people, but I'm concerned about how they treat strangers.


By Mojo the Monkey on 7/21/2009 12:31:27 PM , Rating: 5
My money is on there having been no witnesses to the suicide... and a boot-shaped bruise on his back after having landed face first.


By SilthDraeth on 7/21/2009 7:41:10 PM , Rating: 4
I have to say I am outraged by people's general stance on suicide.

It should always be a person's choice when and how they die. One should not be considered a coward for choosing to die, instead of live.

Was that old man composer and his old wife cowards, when she found she was terminally ill with cancer and had weeks to live, and the composer guy was going deaf and blind, so they chose to die together in a hospital while holding hands?

There are differences obviously between that story and this one, but they are both suicide.

So get off your high horses and let the person's death be in peace and not scrutinized and called a coward.


By Smilin on 7/21/2009 10:52:42 AM , Rating: 3
Yes, Really.

I'll dare to call him a coward too.

Sure it took some bravery to jump but that was really just an escape from something that took even more bravery: facing up to life's troubles.


By rdeegvainl on 7/21/2009 11:14:10 AM , Rating: 5
your post is missing one important detail... the point.


By Smilin on 7/21/2009 12:38:35 PM , Rating: 3
A disorder could be the cause the act of cowardice but it remains cowardice.

Asking for help would be embarrasing and on some level admitting there is something wrong with you. Asking for help despite these tough consequences would be the true act of bravery.


By erple2 on 7/21/2009 4:08:00 PM , Rating: 2
And in a non-Chinese society, I'd agree with you. However, I don't know how Chinese society and culture values the life of the individual over the collective whole, as I'm not Chinese. I can say here that there's no bravery in suicide, but that's my Western Social Philosophy slant. Eastern Social Philosophy has a very different take on the value of human life.

You can liken this to Honor/Dishonor, I suppose - is it perceived in the society to be more dishonorable to kill one's self over an incident than to face the result of your actions, or is it less dishonorable? How does Honor play a part in one's self-being, from a societal standpoint? These are questions I don't know the answer to.

I can give you my Western take on that. It's generally not very brave to take one's own life. I suppose one could cook up a couple of exceptions, though. Asking for help in a society that values some notion of your own strength over other things means that asking for help may be a larger dishonor than simply offing yourself. I don't know. And, I think that you don't either.


By Smilin on 7/21/2009 11:41:25 AM , Rating: 1
Somehow because I'm alive and haven't committed suicide you think I must be stricken with a mental disorder?

Thanks for the lesson there Sigmund.


By Smilin on 7/21/2009 12:41:04 PM , Rating: 2
Just responding to the guy who said I wasn't coping well.

Garbage in, garbage out.


By tastyratz on 7/21/2009 2:45:32 PM , Rating: 3
Agreed on the suspicion.
At what point was it determined a suicide? is that the official coroners explanation? Did they find a note in his handwriting?


By AlmostExAMD on 7/22/2009 3:18:42 AM , Rating: 2
You brave enough to go over there and say what your saying here to his relatives or are you a coward? Only cowards are the ones who don't jump!
Facing up to life's troubles in a communist country,being beaten in jail or having your family suffer,Yeah great one.
He would probably never find another job afterwards for life,and relatives would be shunned upon also.
His life his choice not yours!


By Aloonatic on 7/21/2009 5:41:51 PM , Rating: 5
Let's not be quite so quick to judge here. You're judging the guys actions through western eyes, with a western mindset.

We have very different attitudes towards suicide and western societies have been affected greatly by the opinions of the catholic church, whether we like it or not, which in turn has a big affect on how you perceive the act of suicide, the reasons for it and how we should judge the participant.

In non western cultures suicide is viewed very differently and not some cowardly "sin", but that's how we see it as that is how we have been told to think about it.

One thing that is for sure, taking your own life is not easy, nor "total cowardice". Feel free to prove me wrong, but I guarantee that you'll find it the hardest thing you've ever tried to do..... or your money back.


By GeorgeOu on 7/21/2009 6:11:13 PM , Rating: 2
You're right. It's not appropriate to call this guy a coward. He was sadly confused for sure, but he's not a coward. Even if he took the prototype, he should have just accepted the punishment. The company was definitely wrong here and they exerted an enormous amount of pressure on the kid. The kid probably thought his reputation and his life was over.


By AlmostExAMD on 7/22/2009 3:24:41 AM , Rating: 2
Perfectly said! They have absolutely no idea what must go though one's mind at that very moment. There is no second chance once you are 100% sure and you make the decision to go through with it,Definitely not cowardice deiciding wether to live or die.


By Smilin on 7/22/2009 11:21:00 AM , Rating: 1
Give me a break.

This guy didn't fail his feudal lord on the battlefield. He lost a f'n iPhone.

I understand the honor crap but keep it in perspective.


By Aloonatic on 7/22/2009 12:14:57 PM , Rating: 2
What?

Sometimes the people on this site just boggle my mind.


By Smilin on 7/22/2009 4:09:28 PM , Rating: 1
Learn to follow a thread then.


By Aloonatic on 7/23/2009 3:57:20 AM , Rating: 3
I am? I'm following it in the context of the article too. I'm not really sure what you are following however.

You seem to be following it in the contest of some insurance claim about any old lost iPhone, completely devoid of empathy, with a cursory acknowledgement of other cultures and behaviours but with the understanding that they are wrong and how you think can be only way to think about it correctly.

Typical DT contributor behaviour really.


By mead drinker on 7/21/2009 5:47:33 PM , Rating: 3
Am I the only person that read the article and interpreted this poor individual's suicide as a direct result of the violation he experienced from those that broke and entered his home and allegedly abused him? To my understanding his personal right to his domicile was violated in addition to any other actions that may have been taken against him. Reading this article from the perspective of a native of the U.S only offers a glimpse into the disruption this incident may have caused in this person's mind. We take many liberties for granted and therefore our own homes serve only as a microcosm of the freedoms afforded to us. In China an individual’s home may be the only sanctuary of liberty and the violation of such can prove to be a formidable motive to a person’s suicide. Let’s be clear, this is not some romanticized idea of seppuku or the like because of an established honor code but rather the degradation of one's psyche due in part to the actions taken by some corporate vigilantes. To chastise the actions of the deceased, and call them cowardice is ignorant. Furthermore, the debate whether it is honorable or not is an argument affirmed on either side of a religious paradigm and therefore intolerant on all accounts. I sincerely provide my condolences to the family and apologize for any small part that I may have played by being a frequent visitor of this site, that like many, lead to the perpetuation of events like these by habitually exploiting individuals to make a headline and the sensation they stir.


By Boze on 7/22/2009 2:28:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Am I the only person that read the article and interpreted this poor individual's suicide as a direct result of the violation he experienced from those that broke and entered his home and allegedly abused him?


Good thing black people in the United States weren't so frail, otherwise all the other disparate groups in our country would still be suffering from lack of civil rights... gays, lesbians, etc. would all have a tough time.


By robinthakur on 7/22/2009 8:54:57 AM , Rating: 2
The only thing I found more saddening than the article itself, was certain people's bewildering reactions to it. Whether you personally think he was a coward or not, with your comfortable western mindset and lifestyle is unimportant.

The reality is that a 25 year old young man with an education and tremendous potential is dead having allegedly killed himself. Have some sensitivity, dignity and don't speak ill of the departed, who must have been under such unimaginable pressure that ending his own life seemed the best way out. Imagine what would have to go wrong in your lives to make you want to end your life, and you might understand. You all act like your view of the world is formed by playing Gears of War, reading the bible and watching Army recruitment videos, which probably isn't far wrong.


By putergeek00 on 7/21/2009 10:28:35 AM , Rating: 1
Hmmm... Well educated, has access to iPhone prototypes.

Im just guessing but I'd say he probably thought of that before he jumped.


By wayout41 on 7/21/2009 10:44:08 AM , Rating: 2
Very true, also realised after typing that its very insensitive.


By Iaiken on 7/21/2009 10:52:46 AM , Rating: 2
That would require the phone have a number assigned to it by a provider.


By Iaiken on 7/21/2009 3:50:53 PM , Rating: 5
Wow... way to go off the deep end over someone sacrificing accuracy for conciseness... perhaps you should switch to decaf?

If you want to get completely technical, the number isn't assigned to the sim card either. The service-subscriber key that is stored on the sim card is assigned to a phone number and not vice versa.

But by all means, keep freaking out over it...


By sxr7171 on 7/21/2009 5:40:20 PM , Rating: 2
Well he does bring up a good point though. If these prototypes are so valuable there should be GPS or RFID tracking built into them. Heck where's MobileMe tracking when you need it?

Yes, I know. I said that last part in jest since I know it can't be relied on in a device that may or may not be "live", but some form of RFID protection was needed and one would think that a technological solution should have been implemented rather than this one of threats and illegal searches.


By Iaiken on 7/22/2009 9:59:41 AM , Rating: 2
This is actually a good idea for any prototype device capable of transmission. The antennae could be dual-purposed to amp up an RFID signal which could be triggered by receipt of another predetermined RFID key. This would allow you to effectively 'ping' the device wirelessly, using existing infrastructure and triangulate its location. So long as it in a state that is capable of transmission...


By xsilver on 7/22/2009 6:15:43 AM , Rating: 1
yawn - you're the one thats "freaking" out defending yourself?

and you're arguing over a moot point as I pointed out in the 3 point "presentation" that you didnt understand?

its like arguing that your ferrari is faster when you've lost the keys and have no gas...


By Iaiken on 7/22/2009 10:01:03 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not the one aggressively attacking other people in order to make myself look smart in the eyes of the intertron...

you... switch...decaf... :P


By xsilver on 7/22/2009 4:55:53 PM , Rating: 2
aggressively attacking? if I need to switch to decaf then you need to find a way out of that padded cell...

plus this is a TECH FORUM. If you come here and say something wrong about TECH related stuff then expect to be corrected. Im not here to tell you your hair smells good lol.

this is on top of you trying to make a moot point because the phone wouldnt have a sim in it anyways. I made it abundantly clear above but I guess that doesnt matter.


By nayy on 7/21/2009 11:22:20 AM , Rating: 5
Yeah except that American workers are not kidnapped, threatened with life time sentence and possibly tortured if something goes wrong. We don't really know how bad this guy had it, he was being used as an example to prevent leaks from happening again.


By jonmcc33 on 7/21/2009 11:27:24 AM , Rating: 3
This is why you always carry a gun. Three people break into my home? They are all dead men.


By xsilver on 7/21/2009 1:00:03 PM , Rating: 3
i liked that movie too....

hero dies in the end though right?

Plus they dont really have to break in, 3 co-workers come knocking on your door in a friendly manner and ask to chat about the missing phone. You sit them down for a spot of tea and bam - 2 of them jump you. Probably saw that in a movie too...


By knutjb on 7/22/2009 4:41:26 AM , Rating: 2
Those 3 co-workers weren't "co-workers" they were a security goon squad run amok.


By erple2 on 7/21/2009 4:12:37 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, but according to at least one non-verified sources - if you kill a person in China, you will be put to death. Circumstances generally don't matter that much. So killing them means that you are killing yourself.


By The0ne on 7/21/2009 8:08:15 PM , Rating: 3
Of my businesses with CM factories in China, not once have I seen employees this "under pressure" to want to kill themselves. China, again, is just lying through their teeth. Employees aren't satisfied but most are not going to kill themselves over it. Japan, I can believe because heck even kids kill themselves for not making it into a good university.

This whole story smells of foul play but ultimately nothing is going to happen because the government and the company don't want to get a bad reputation from it. Imagine that, bad reputation vs someone's life. Apple will still be using Foxxcon as usual and many other companies will do the same thing. Pretty sad place if you think about it.


By alexfenway on 7/22/2009 10:47:47 PM , Rating: 2
Scary thing working in companies like that. Maybe he should of just taken a few of those, and headed for the thai border with hopes of making some money off the new tech.


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