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Print 73 comment(s) - last by MyndMelt.. on Nov 16 at 11:04 PM

One popular free antivirus scanner recently created a world of woe for its users

The world of computer security can be a scary place for friends and foes alike.  This weekend users' found their AVG software updated with a new virus definition file.  Then they quickly found their computers crashing. 

What was discovered was that the new virus definition file mistook user32.dll, a critical Windows component, for a container for the Trojan Horses PSW.Banker4.APSA or Generic9TBN.  When the scanner went active, it deleted this critical file, thinking it contained a virus, causing the system to crash.  AVG recommended users whose definitions auto-updated delete their virus definition file and cancel any scans they have running.

If your computer is affected, it will either stop booting or go into an endless reboot loop.  Vista users can breathe a sigh of relief -- so far that OS has remained relatively unaffected.  Windows XP users, however must now exercise extreme caution, or risk having to carry out a bothersome repair process.

Both AVG 7.5 and AVG 8.0 were affected by the erroneous definition file.  The file has since been update to remove the error.

For affected users, you can either reinstall Windows or repair it with a Windows disk.  A third option is to use a boot disc, such as the Ultimate Boot CD (ISO) and then grab the files you need from the "C:\Windows\System32\dllcache" directory.

With 80 million total users worldwide, thanks in part to AVG's free version, this error is obviously significant to many.  So far AVG has not issued a formal statement about the problem, although there are posts on their discussion board about it, to which they have responded informally.

For those disheartened by AVG's offense and still hoping for a free antivirus fix, ClamWin is one alternative.  Its another free software, a Windows port from the Linux scanner ClamAV.  Some users also wrote in to suggest Free-AV as an alternative.

And of course there's the many professional security suites on the market as well.

Update:  Some of our readers are reporting that Vista may be having similar problems to Windows XP (see following comments).  The scope of this problem is unclear, as some Vista users reported being unaffected.


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I love my Trendmicro
By chick0n on 11/11/2008 2:31:50 PM , Rating: 2
Nothing is bug free, TrendMicro gave me some problems before, but then I work it out with the engineer and everything been fine.

Yep, I have to pay for it, at least I know it works :)




RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 2:40:05 PM , Rating: 5
...I guess this just proves that "nobody's perfect"

I've used AVG for, um, well, like forever. First time I've ever seen them have a problem. Unlike the major retail packages which seem to suck in perpetuity.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Smilin on 11/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 10:38:43 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to re-think that. Do you honestly think that every AVG user in the world has left their PCs unpatched for a year?


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By DarkElfa on 11/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 3:02:19 PM , Rating: 2
Really? Wow. So how does that explain the fact that I've got PCs all over my house that have never used anything but AVG for many years, and I've not ever gotten a virus on any of them?

Oh...it doesn't, because your post is nonsense.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By DragonMaster0 on 11/11/2008 9:06:52 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
have never used anything but AVG for many years, and I've not ever gotten a virus on any of them?

Because if AVG never notified you, that means you never got anything. So you're not stupid-enough to get a virus. That makes AVG a good anti-virus? Maybe it actually missed some?

You could have viruses that are not detected. I've been surprised to find some viruses deep into old ZIP archives on a family computer that AVG wouldn't find with a full scan. I started using AntiVir when AVG released the bloated version 8, AntiVir found them.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By bobsmith1492 on 11/11/2008 9:47:18 PM , Rating: 2
What about the fact that I've PCs everywhere that have never had a virus and have never used virus protection? Hmm...


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 10:39:32 PM , Rating: 2
That's entirely possible if you're a very smart user. Most people aren't. And I just like the extra insurance myself.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By icanhascpu on 11/12/2008 5:09:07 AM , Rating: 2
How would you know if youve never done a virus scan?


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By afkrotch on 11/12/2008 2:30:02 PM , Rating: 2
If you don't have an anti-virus software on your computer, then nothing is detected. That means you never got a virus.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 3:26:41 PM , Rating: 2
I never had problems with that, so I would like to know what You mean.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 3:39:16 PM , Rating: 2
...what he means is that a webtard once posted on a 1337 forum that AVG was teh su><or and he read it, and therefore it must be true and no one should ever question that fact because HE KNOWS.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By kontorotsui on 11/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: I love my Trendmicro
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 3:45:20 PM , Rating: 2
What do You base that postulation on??


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By ggordonliddy on 11/11/2008 7:44:09 PM , Rating: 2
He's being sarcastic, insinuating that Windows itself is malware.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By kontorotsui on 11/11/2008 3:55:01 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
AVG already thinks everything is a virus except actual viruses.


Only a Sith deals in absolutes


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By theapparition on 11/12/2008 6:58:46 AM , Rating: 2
I know AVG is popular, but I've had nothing but misery with it. Seems some of my files, most notably flexlm dll's, get flagged as trogans, and programs stop working. Nothing short of removing AVG will help. Thank god for system restore!

AVG's own support suggested that I remove thier program. It is incompatible with some existing files.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: I love my Trendmicro
By keith524 on 11/12/2008 3:24:42 PM , Rating: 2
You forgot the period at the end of your sentence. If that was computer code then it would be a bug and that's only a single line.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By on 11/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: I love my Trendmicro
By raghavny80 on 11/12/2008 12:57:39 PM , Rating: 2
Doesnt matter.. I am still staying with AVG. I found AVG easily customizable and occupying a far lesser footprint than other free and non free AV..
Btw seriously after Vista, does anyone still need an AV?? The only virus that had ever managed to beat me is the Blaster worm (thanks to my ISP)..


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By afkrotch on 11/12/2008 2:34:14 PM , Rating: 2
I use a corporate version of Norton on my file server. Whether it picks up or doesn't pick up a virus, don't really care.

At times I don't even know why I have it. Smart computing has done more for me than any AV or malware scanners.

If you have a spare computer, us that as your pr0n box. Don't keep anything important on it and reimage it twice a month. Pr0n and warez sites are the only sites I've gone to that contain tons of malware.


RE: I love my Trendmicro
By mindless1 on 11/13/2008 8:18:46 PM , Rating: 2
There's plenty of non pron or warez sites that now tell users they need a special codec (virus) to watch videos of all kinds of things, it's no longer true that simply avoiding pron and warez is a reasonable safeguard.


Hmmmm...
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 1:51:49 PM , Rating: 3
...we have several machines in the house running on AVG Free...didn't experience any issues with any of them...?




RE: Hmmmm...
By Belard on 11/11/2008 1:56:11 PM , Rating: 2
Because your computers didn't do a full scan.

Update the AVG before you do so.

Doing daily scans is too time consuming and creates a lot of wear & tear on HDs. On some computers I know of, it takes 1-3hrs to do a complete scan.

Do it once a month or so. But look at it this way, if a Virus got past the real-time protection, it'll get past a scan.


RE: Hmmmm...
By Motoman on 11/11/2008 2:30:52 PM , Rating: 2
Ah. I would reckon then if a day has gone by, though, and AVG fixed the definition file, then all PCs who don't do daily scans have probably corrected themselves without ever having experienced the issue...

...presuming you have automatic updates on.


RE: Hmmmm...
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 2:33:51 PM , Rating: 2
Since Grisoft updates the definition files at least once a day it would be stupid to turn it off.


RE: Hmmmm...
By leexgx on 11/11/2008 3:09:57 PM , Rating: 2
its stuped to turn it on (daily full scan)

as most pcs that have it turnd on slow the PC down for 30 mins as AVG full scan does not pause (like superfetch does not pause or system restore on vista) bogs the hard disk down for some time untill it has compleated

first thing i do on avg is turn it off there is 0 point in doing daily scans as its unlikey to find any thing any way even it it does not likey to be able to remove it if the reall time scanner did not pick it up first, allso its likey to kill the hard disk sooner due to dayly scanning that most antivirus do not do it, most do it every month
install Norton 2009 as that only does things now when your not at the pc you never know its there


RE: Hmmmm...
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 3:20:53 PM , Rating: 4
I was talking about automatic UPDATES ;)

The only thing I still like from Symantech is Ghost. The rest has become too 'bloated' for my liking.


RE: Hmmmm...
By Lord 666 on 11/11/2008 3:24:06 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed that Norton 2009 works much better than previous versions. Tested it with my first Vista install, but have been going "bareback rider" with no protection on my latest build.

But the bottom line is you get what you pay for. After this issue with AVG, just going to stick with the "high risk" behaivor.


RE: Hmmmm...
By Viditor on 11/11/2008 6:14:58 PM , Rating: 2
Been using Avast with great success!
Small footprint, boot scanning (meaning your AV scan can be done during boot up and before drivers are loaded), and free...


RE: Hmmmm...
By mmntech on 11/11/2008 10:57:04 PM , Rating: 2
I've been using Avast for the longest time but I recently decided to try AVG. I think I'll switch back.


RE: Hmmmm...
By jrb531 on 11/13/2008 10:51:09 AM , Rating: 2
Same here. Avast is a bit better than AVG which I used for years. When AVG released that bloat version 8.0 I switched to Avast and I've been very happy. Avast even has minimal Spyware protection and combined with the Free (well free if you paid for windows LOL) Windows Defender, I have been doing pretty well.

This is VERY serious. Issuing an untested update that has the potential to render millions of computers unusable is pretty serious.

Shame on you AVG! While no one is perfect I can never remember something like this happening in which an "oops" could cause millions of people to have to reinstall windows.

All they had to do was test it. Makes you wonder how many other of their updates were not even tested.

I used and recommended AVG to people for years and years... I think I'll hide under a rock until this blows over :)

So far Avast has proven better than AVG but no virus protection is 100% - even those you pay for so in some respects we all roll the dice.

IMHO having a good hardware firewall (router) combined with a decent software firewall is half the battle. Even if you only have a single computer attached to the internet, having a router just for the hardware firewall is a good idea... especially because routers are so cheap these days.


RE: Hmmmm...
By SnakeBlitzken on 11/12/2008 9:38:02 AM , Rating: 2
I used norton for years but it got so bad I removed it. It brought my PC to it's knees and automatic updates were huge and slow (I don't have highspeed). I've been using AVG anti-malware for two years and have no complaints. Updates are quick and I seldom notice them. Daily HD scans is turned on but they run early in the morning so they don't interfere with anything. Maybe I'll move that to once a week.

I haven't noticed any problems. Maybe it's just the free version. Of course, I seldom turn my PC off.


RE: Hmmmm...
By afkrotch on 11/12/2008 2:43:29 PM , Rating: 2
I never used any of those home use Nortons. Only corporate versions and they aren't all that bloated. I have my file server set as the Norton server and my other machines as managed clients to that server.

Scans automatically happened while I slept, so no big deal there. Aside from those times, computer runs the same as it did before they were installed.

Anyways, only machine now that has Norton is my file server. I've rebuilt my machines and didn't find much use in throwing Norton or any AV on my machines.

This may seem troublesome to some ppl, but I just update my Host file for Ads and anything else that comes through just comes through. If I run into problems, I just reload. My Documents are stored on a file server that doesn't do anything except sit there.

I have an SP3 slipstreamed WinXP disc, so a reload, updates, and program installs can be done in half an hour, if that. All my settings have been backed up also, so once an install is complete. I dump that back on.

I'd pull full images, but constant hardware upgrades means constant image creations. It'd be annoying to keep around 5 different images that would probably each range around 20 gigs a piece.


GREAT
By danrien on 11/11/2008 1:53:38 PM , Rating: 4
Now I'm going to be getting calls from 20 or so customers asking me why they're computers won't work. AWESOME.




RE: GREAT
By Myrandex on 11/11/2008 2:07:43 PM , Rating: 2
Same thoughts exactly.

And Author I think that Avast! has a free AV product as well. They even have a free 64-bit version (something AVG is lacking); however, the last time I tried putting it onto a 64bit XP system, the system would never start up properly (the network connections would never start up; I could get to a desktop but I couldn't do much with the system as the Avast! version was causing it to hang, but when I removed it the system was fine).
Jason


RE: GREAT
By kristof007 on 11/11/2008 2:36:38 PM , Rating: 2
I have Avast! and I hadn't experienced any problems with Windows but funny story for you guys.

I downloaded the new WoW patch with the official downloader and everything and the game updated its executable file and I tried launching it and Avast caught one of the .DLL files as a virus. Of course I didn't delete the file. I just hopped on Google and figured out that other people were having the same issue.


RE: GREAT
By Spyvie on 11/11/2008 3:56:37 PM , Rating: 2
I’ve been running Avast! Exclusively for several years, and I couldn’t be happier.

I’ve seen it instantly catch Trojans in P2P files that a licensed and updated copy of Mcafee didn’t catch… saw that more than once. It was also the first working antivirus for Vista if I’m not mistaken, with excellent user support. The writer/engineers were active participants on the official forum, posting builds and asking for feedback as needed back in the Vista beta days.

I think the graphics and animations are cool as well, and best of all its free for personal use.


RE: GREAT
By feraltoad on 11/11/2008 5:09:22 PM , Rating: 2
I also use avast! and I think it is one of the best out there! It always catches stuff and has me "abort connection" when I'm on a naughty site trying to download a virus. I can't even tell it's running when it is sitting in the system tray, and it doesn't try to overreach. Updates are very frequent. It's wonderful software that is free for personal use! I have all my friends and family using it. The other day it caught something my wife was trying to download and scared the classroom she was in with its "Warning...Warning...Virus Detected" they thought it was a real alarm because her speakers were all they way up. It certainly doesn't feel like a "free" version since it does everything I want it to do. After using it I can't recommend anything else, although I'm sure there are some good ones out there.


RE: GREAT
By ShaolinSoccer on 11/11/2008 7:56:13 PM , Rating: 2
I fix PC's for a living and have ran into problems with both Avast and AVG on a few occasions. Avast did exactly what the guy above me said it did. You could get to desktop but that was about it. PC would freeze. AVG was something similiar. Only way to fix it without trying to get too technical was to uninstall the anti virus in safe mode then reinstall a different one. But overall, 95% of my clients are very happy with their computers . It's just a pain when you gotta fix that 5% of PC's gone bad...for free...


RE: GREAT
By Darkk on 11/11/2008 8:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
I've been using Avast! for years and recommended it to several of my friends and co-workers. Biggest thing I like about Avast is the licensing model for personal use. Even though it's free I can use the free registered license number on several of my PCs. No more dealing with licensing issues.

I may upgrade my copy to Pro so I can support these guys for doing a great job.


AVG has always been good to me.
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 2:02:33 PM , Rating: 2
I've used it for several years now, and have always found it to be a good protection. I haven't discovered any problems, even though I'm on everyday. But that's probably because I:

1: Install AVG-Free
2: Scan the whole computer
3: Then switch off daily scanning, which isn't actually needed since all traffic is scanned before it gets in?

Sometimes I find that AVG doesn't update proper on boot because it tries to do so before the network is ready. But that only happens like every second week or so and is quickly solved by clicking 'Update'.

And last, but not least, I didn't think windows system files could be 'taken' out ie. protected to not let the OS fall apart, which hints that AVG WAS a little to eager there?




RE: AVG has always been good to me.
By Lifted on 11/11/2008 3:29:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
3: Then switch off daily scanning, which isn't actually needed since all traffic is scanned before it gets in?


So what happens when an 0-day virus slips by because the definitions aren't released for it yet? The only way to catch those is to run a full scan every once in a while.


RE: AVG has always been good to me.
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 3:40:58 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, once in a while. But everyday, as somebody said earlier, would probably kill the harddisc before a virus.


By Reclaimer77 on 11/12/2008 2:06:05 AM , Rating: 2
Lucky you. My story ?

I installed AVG 8 free about a month ago. Did the updates, did the scan, all was well.

Until I booted my pc up the next day. To make a long story short, AVG had somehow crippled my Windows installation to the point that it could not start up normally. It would make it as far as the desktop before Windows would freeze partially. Just enough to prevent me from clicking on anything, using the keyboard, etc etc.

I spent hours guessing at the problem. I even broke out my Xp disk and used the Windows repair feature. It never even dawned on me that AVG was the problem until I remembered it was the last thing I installed before I shut down my PC the next day. After uninstalling AVG, Windows was magically fixed.

Well, live and learn. Never again AVG, never again.


errr
By sprockkets on 11/11/2008 2:28:30 PM , Rating: 2
If it deletes user32.dll from the system folder, wouldn't it also just do the same if it found it in the dllcache folder?




RE: errr
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 2:31:41 PM , Rating: 2
After reparring Windows and Updating AVG, that should not happen.


RE: errr
By Visual on 11/12/2008 8:03:17 AM , Rating: 2
you missed the point entirely.


AVG slows webpages
By TO on 11/11/2008 8:17:25 PM , Rating: 2
I personally found that AVG slows down my internet connection, pages load substantially slower as they are being scanned, 20mbps slows to 4mbps...




RE: AVG slows webpages
By piroroadkill on 11/12/2008 3:53:51 AM , Rating: 2
Don't use Linkscanner?


RE: AVG slows webpages
By icanhascpu on 11/12/2008 5:11:50 AM , Rating: 2
Isnt 4mbps still instant for loading web content. =/


AV Comparatives
By Screwballl on 11/12/2008 11:24:56 AM , Rating: 2
take a look at the website http://www.av-comparatives.org/ and tell me if AVG is really worth it anymore? 1) AVG has become a resource hog with the release of 8.0, and 2) Avira (aka free-av in the story) is rated much higher than even paid programs.

I refuse to use anything else until I see better numbers and better performance.




RE: AV Comparatives
By afkrotch on 11/12/2008 2:56:54 PM , Rating: 2
Looking at that list, Norton seems to be the best. Few false positives, fast on demand scans, and captures 97-99% of crap.

As for McAfee, don't care much about that listing. I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw their corporate headquarters building. They started installed McAfee Intrusion Prevention software on our computers at work. It's pushed through SMS, so I had no idea about it. Well, it's nice to know that the software was kind enough to keep Nvidia drivers from starting up. Spent like 2 hours trying to figure out why our comps were BSODing.


RE: AV Comparatives
By DragonMaster0 on 11/12/2008 7:34:36 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, and it's way lighter than AVG, Avast! or Comodo.

About the annoying popups and automatic update, well, that can be fixed : In the scheduler, the automatic update can be made invisible, and as for the popup ads, well it's probably against the license agreement, but avnotify.exe + Security tab = :)


Odd...
By s12033722 on 11/11/2008 6:26:47 PM , Rating: 2
I use AVG and have daily updates and daily scan enabled. I scan starting at 2:00 am, so it doesn't hurt anything. My PC is up 24/7 for weeks at a time before reboots. I am surprised I have not seen any issues. I think I will check for that file when I get home...




RE: Odd...
By s12033722 on 11/11/2008 6:30:32 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, here's why: As posted on AVG's website, "The problem only affects users of the Dutch, French, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish language versions of Windows XP."


Just switched to Avira
By kensiko on 11/11/2008 6:48:25 PM , Rating: 2
I'm a 2 years user of AVG, simply because it was the first I found to work with Vista.

Since AVG 8, I have experienced updates errors. I'm not alone, on many computers I have installed the anti-virus, there is this "can't connect" problem. This is very annoying. I've tried a lot of things, task scheduler, run program as administrator, nothing works. I can update the anti-virus by clicking update manually a couple of times.

Since that user32.dll, I searched for alternative and found Avira, which seems to automatically renew license after a year, what Avast doesn't do. For now, it has detected a couple of viruses in my computer (I know I take risks sometimes).

The only annoying thing for now is the popup windows to buy the full version that shows when updating. It's not too bad.




RE: Just switched to Avira
By mindless1 on 11/13/2008 8:24:00 PM , Rating: 2
I too have seen lots of intermittent can't-connect errors, had assumed their update server was just busy.


I guess that just shows.....
By marvdmartian on 11/12/2008 10:09:18 AM , Rating: 2
....you get what you pay for! I know there's a lot of Norton haters out there, but I haven't heard of them killing off important windows files....yet! ;)




RE: I guess that just shows.....
By jrb531 on 11/13/2008 11:01:05 AM , Rating: 2
Dunno about now but a few years ago Norton was the very definition of bloatware. It slowed down your system and the install was so insidious that it was darn near impossible to ever remove it. It's also funny how they want you to pay each year for another license when other companies can give you free versions and updates.

The last time I checked, these "pay" versions were not much better at detecting viruses vs the free versions so what exactly do you get each year for paying?

Some people feel that they are automatically better because you do pay for them... tests show differently.


Missing Info (again)
By jleemc44 on 11/11/2008 4:04:08 PM , Rating: 3
DT seems to be missing an important piece of info that other sites are reporting. According to other sources the problem only affects users running the Dutch, French, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish language versions of Windows XP.

I hope this is true. :-)




Vista Untouched?
By deeznuts on 11/11/2008 1:58:20 PM , Rating: 2
Are we 100% sure vista was untouched? Because my perfectly normal Vista machine went into an infinite loop as soon as it would start to load vista it would reboot.

I never experienced anything like it, and it pushed me over the edge (I reloaded XP ;)). and yes it is running AVG, which I have been thinking of removing anyway.

I literally had done nothing to the machine. Booted it up, was surfing then boom, it crashed and kept rebooting at windows.




Don't they even test their patches?
By Sanity on 11/11/2008 3:46:52 PM , Rating: 2
Is it common practice to not test a new virus definition update before you release it? That's crazy. Even for a free program.




Dodged a bullet
By slash196 on 11/11/2008 4:12:36 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like my computer didn't scan between the faulty database and the corrected one. Yay for me.




not running avg as service
By joeld on 11/11/2008 9:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
I use AVG but with the service not running -- it still works on demand. I'm glad now!




some common sense ppl
By The0ne on 11/12/2008 10:59:30 AM , Rating: 2
1. If you download or pirate a lot of stuff scan them
2. If you have kids the surf quite a bit, scan your PC
3. If you have friends that come over to use your PC, scan your PC
4. Don't scan everyday. Minimum, scan every week.
5. It doesn't hurt to scan any files unless you know it's going to take several hours. If you have a current PC then it doesn't take hours.
6. If you're doing full scans all the time, that means you're doing something you know that might be a problem.
7. As with 6, if you know you are just using your PCs normally then do a SMART/QUICK scan.

What's the confusion with all of you? Run your spyware/adware programs and virus scans every week like I do. Unless you know everything that there is to know, and you don't, it's better to just let it run and spend the time doing something while it finishes.




All I can say is....
By MyndMelt on 11/16/2008 11:04:56 PM , Rating: 2
NOD32 for the Win!

http://www.eset.com/

want your computer to crash?.. stay with your free antivirus. I've been a professional IT technician for 10+ years and I've seen more machines infected while running free avg than nearly any other AV package. I use nod32 and it works like a freakin charm.




LOL!
By gevorg on 11/11/08, Rating: -1
RE: LOL!
By Clauzii on 11/11/2008 3:43:45 PM , Rating: 3
As I remember, the definitions file is the same in both free and paid for versions.


RE: LOL!
By kalak on 11/12/2008 7:39:02 AM , Rating: 2
the definitions is the same, BUT not the update frequency !


RE: LOL!
By Clauzii on 11/12/2008 4:15:00 PM , Rating: 2
It's true that the Free version only updates >automatically< once a day at the time set by the user. To let it update periodically (ie. every 15min.) You need to purchase it.

BUT, and I think it is a BIG but, if You remember to manually update, You get the same as in the paid version. At least I've experienced updates every ~4-8 hours during my +6 years of use of AVG. And they've been in business since 1991, so I trust them for their good working solution.


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