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Describes a seemingly systemic disregard for state licensing requirements

Litigation blog Recording Industry vs. the People caught wind of an unlicensed investigator complaint Tuesday, filed against the RIAA’s favored P2P investigator MediaSentry. Filed by attorneys at Central Michigan University, the complaint alleges that MediaSentry both advertises and conducts investigation services for the RIAA and its lawsuit campaign, without appropriate licensing.

The complaint (PDF), originally filed on July 11, is only the latest turn of events for a company constantly defending itself against unlicensed investigator claims. Early last July the MediaSentry attempted to justify its work – which seems to consist mainly of recording usernames and IP addresses of copyright infringers on P2P networks – by claiming that it draws from publicly available sources, and is therefore exempt to the regulation requirements found in its home state of Michigan.

CMU seems to see things differently though, and its complaint points cites both MediaSentry’s advertising literature and the RIAA’s legal briefings as indicative of the company’s licensing requirement.

“Media Sentry, Inc, which promotes and advertises its expertise and qualifications as an investigative agency, was specifically hired by the [RIAA] to investigate suspected instances of copyright violations taking place within the state of Michigan and including CMU,” wrote the anonymous CMU attorney.

The complaint goes on to point out declarations used in RIAA lawsuits in Michigan courts, all of which consisted of “John Doe” lawsuits designed to subpoena ISPs for a suspected infringer’s identity.

Additionally, MediaSentry’s woes stretch beyond the state Michigan. The company was ordered earlier this year to cease and desist by Massachusetts State Police after Boston University students decided to fight their subpoenas. CMU’s complaint notes that MediaSentry’s actions sparked regulatory inquiries in Florida, Texas, Oregon, Michigan, Massachusetts, Maine, North Carolina, and Arizona – and that it has ignored “cease and desist” orders from both Massachusetts and Maine police.

While neither MediaSentry’s nor SafeNet’s websites describe its services as investigatory, advertising copy on the SafeNet websites lists a number of “intelligence services,” including “notification services” that assist business owners with anti-piracy initiatives. Copies of the website furnished by CMU attorneys, however, show that the company previously advertised its knack for “Investigating Piracy of Intellectual Property,” promising clients that its “investigation service” offers the “most advanced scanning techniques available.”

Michigan law defines a number of protected activities that require an investigation license. These requirements include any business or individual, who for a “fee, reward, or other consideration,” conducts an investigation for the purposes of obtaining a person’s identity or activities, or for securing evidence to be used before a court, among other things.



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I spy with my little eye...
By chmilz on 8/5/2008 7:04:00 PM , Rating: 5
An ever-growing flood of resentment and backlash to anything and everything "anti-piracy". Piracy is wrong, but the more it's crammed down our throats, the less anyone cares.




RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Orbs on 8/5/2008 7:19:33 PM , Rating: 5
The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By HsiKai on 8/5/2008 7:26:27 PM , Rating: 2
The movement against "anti-piracy" is going to be the next big thing, maybe take the place of what open source should have been, and stimulate our youngest generation.

With any luck this new champion of "love and peace" might influence out own domestic policy as well as our foreign policy. I hope they start with the ISPs, first.

Speaking of which ... http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/08/05/220229.shtm...

With respect to your comment that people don't care ... yeah, they don't. But once it starts affecting them personally they'll take notice. For instance, anyone with a restrictive ISP or anyone who has ever bought an audio CD.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Frallan on 8/6/2008 3:46:39 AM , Rating: 5
[RANT]

Ohhh so true - up untill 3.5 yrs ago I bought my music. Then I bought 9 CD for a drive... In the car it all went well but when i got home and wanted to play the things on my computer...

2 of the CD installed a player without asking - the player did NOT support my 5.1 speakersystem
2 of them wouldnt play at all.

Then when i tried to convert em for my MP3-player well Im sure you can guess...

Since then I have not spent a dime on music and I will not until there is no more DRM on it and even then SONY will has to apologize to its customers before I purchase any music in any format from them.

For me this has become a matter of principle and in the end they will loose not bc Im doing it but bc they will soon have pissed a too big part of thier customers off.

my 0.02€

[/RANT]


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By nafhan on 8/6/2008 8:14:50 AM , Rating: 3
I've been very happy with Amazon MP3. 256 kilobit MP3 without watermarking or DRM. Not sure if it's available in euroland, though.


By Chemical Chris on 8/7/2008 12:14:38 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, 100%
I just refuse to pay for music or movies as the actions taken by the MAFIAA are so abhorrent that I can not in good conscience allow any of my money to end up in their pockets. Not to mention their oft-inferior products (CD's suck, I want all my music in 96khz/24bit, not this 44.1/16 nonsense theyve had for (over?) ~25 years now.
I still refuse to buy digital music, (for reasons mentioned above), also because it is often possible to find more/better quality from the 'pirate' sources. There is still no attractive legal option for music/movies, IMO.

PS, I still buy music, but I buy second-hand records (vinyl, 33's), as no money goes to the MAFIAA, just the local store, and the music sounds better (richer and softer, but not as crisp.....its a matter of taste, i guess)

ChemC


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By EricMartello on 8/5/2008 7:42:58 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
An ever-growing flood of resentment and backlash to anything and everything "anti-piracy". Piracy is wrong, but the more it's crammed down our throats, the less anyone cares.


Let's be clear here:

Piracy IS NOT wrong.
Piracy IS illegal.
Illegal does not equal wrong.

Furthermore, it's highly debatable about what actually constitutes "piracy". P2P networks? Sites like Youtube? I don't think so. Piracy and all this IP-related litigation needs to be trimmed down.

If someone is not directly profiting from another person's or company's intellectual property, then I don't think the law should ever come into play. The so-called 'anti piracy' movement being brought on by RIAA/MPAA is a complete farce based fully on speculative data.

If you cannot establish concrete dollar figures to show what you have "lost" as a result of piracy, it should never see the light of day in court - period. Saying "We lost billions of dollars in possible sales..." is not a basis for concrete monetary damages.

Sharing does not equal piracy.

People sharing media with other people has been going on since humans have existed, and it's not going to stop. Before there was the net people would share among their friends...now the net just extends the reach, but he concept is the same.


By Crank the Planet on 8/5/2008 8:02:49 PM , Rating: 2
Here Here! The RIAA is nothing less than a middleman. They are trying to stay alive and stop the momentum of freedom and independence from their business model. If artists sell their music directly the RIAA will cease to exist. RIAA = SCO Linux- LOL. If artists sell their CD's at a reasonable price without using the RIAA they will sell more CD's and take home almost all the profits. If people like your music it will spread by word of mouth and that's advertising you can't beat. BTW isn't that how the Beatles became so popular?


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By oopsie on 8/5/2008 9:43:59 PM , Rating: 2
Of course it's wrong to distribute another persons work for free, if the rightful creator is trying to sell that work.

It might be great to download everything for free but that doesn't make it right. At least accept that it's wrong, even if the small scale damages may be minimal.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By WTFiSJuiCE on 8/6/2008 12:20:59 AM , Rating: 4
Yeah, i'm still waiting for god to strike me down w/ a bolt of lightning for that bible someone gave me for free a while back.

The rightful creator sold a copy of their work to a customer. They are taking a risk in order to gain profit by putting their work in someone else's hands in exchange for money.
They cannot stop someone from doing whatever they want with the copy that they rightfully sold them as long provided the customer themselves do not profit from it. The customer bought the rights to do what they want with that particular copy and the creator's rights to object are forfeit with the exchange of money.

It may be wrong or not "nice" but then again, that's not the world's concern.

You may not like the truth, but then again you're free to go cry in a corner.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By mindless1 on 8/6/2008 2:24:14 PM , Rating: 2
It's not that simple. If after selling one copy the buyer has the option to give it away for free to everyone, we could have no content creation professions since nobody would pay enough for the one copy to fund the arts. Even if you feel that you see a loophole through the copyright laws that would allow this, it is better to find solutions rather than make the restrictive copyright laws even moreso which is what will happen if both sides don't concede the works have value, even if they've become overpriced in today's changing market.

There has to be a middle ground. I'm not sure what it is but it definitely starts with not making offenders pay more than the fine for other minor infractions like speeding. It definitely shouldn't include many of the tactics used by the RIAA et al. It definitely shouldn't include a music tax on everyone since there are differing levels of consumption.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By WTFiSJuiCE on 8/6/2008 6:16:44 PM , Rating: 2
OH of course its not that simple, I mean if people stopped paying for other people's inventions then noone would invent anything because...who wants to invent things solely for the benefit of mankind? Even if many people download or copy or whatever it for free, its not everyone and there are some people who do wish to have their own original "copy". People have been sharing information, technology, and items in general for a hell of a lot longer so in reality, aside from giving credit to the inventor, noone really cares about IP.

It may be your Intellectual property, but then again, you SOLD your IP in the form of a physical product and that means that when you are compensated for that one product, what is done with that "one" product is none of your concern; even if that means that people can get copies of that "one" product, that you sold someone else for money, for free. To think that the inventor can tell the consumer what they can and can't do with a product that they purchased is ludicrous and dangerously close to tyrannical.

Here's a situation: Person A picks up a peculiar looking stick and for reasons unknown, bangs it against a hollow log and says "OMG, musak!" He names the stick something like..."musakmaker" and sells it to person B for whatever equals value in this world. Person B takes the stick, walks up to person C and beats him to death with it. Person B then breaks the stick in half and gives the new half to person D, who also uses it to beat person E to death. Well person A sees it not being used as he/she/it had intended it to be used so they ask for it back.
Person B and D can tell him to piss off because he doesn't own that physical item any more...or they could possibly beat him to death with it.

The idea of IP has sadly become so bloated and warped to the point where the RIAA reminds me of sh*t like skynet where if u don't use their product the way they want, they send a terminator after you. Hey, maybe that's why they hate John Connor so much...He uploaded the soundtrack to Terminator 2 to th interweb as a torrent...my god it all makes sense now.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By JustTom on 8/7/2008 12:51:03 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Here's a situation: Person A picks up a peculiar looking stick and for reasons unknown, bangs it against a hollow log and says "OMG, musak!" He names the stick something like..."musakmaker" and sells it to person B for whatever equals value in this world. Person B takes the stick, walks up to person C and beats him to death with it. Person B then breaks the stick in half and gives the new half to person D, who also uses it to beat person E to death. Well person A sees it not being used as he/she/it had intended it to be used so they ask for it back.


I want what you've been smoking... or maybe I don't.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Alexstarfire on 8/7/2008 5:47:48 AM , Rating: 2
ONCE AGAIN: "YOU ARE NOT PURCHASING THE ACTUAL IP, YOU ARE PURCHASING A LICENSE."

You people honestly need to learn to read more... especially EULAs. True, they may not hold up in court, but they spell out things pretty clearly.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By JonnyDough on 8/7/2008 8:06:24 AM , Rating: 2
You are perfectly right.

Intellectual property = rights to copy and distribute the song.

Piracy = no contract that says you own the song.
Buying a CD = no contract that says you own the song. You are buying the ABILITY to PLAY and LISTEN to the song, but not copy and distribute it for profit.

The whole piracy issue really came about because of a fuzzy line. Is giving it freely to strangers the same as selling it for a profit? Regardless, the people hurt by you doing so are the ones who might have sold it for a profit, had you not given it away to everyone. Peer to peer isn't really unjustifiable, but it isn't like you don't know that you're hurting the company or artist...

It comes down to honoring someone's work. If you don't have honor, then I guess you just weren't raised in a very good home. I was taught to acknowledge people and treat them with respect. Apparently many Americans (and Chinese) are not taught this. We have two choices in life, we can either all fend for ourselves (crappy) or we can learn to work and live together in harmony. Pirates are those that would prefer anarchy. In fact, that is exactly who began piracy. Young, pot smoking, heavy metal computer geeks with nothing better to do but "stick it to the man." While I have my qualms with government, I still abide by certain laws and a pretty good set of personal beliefs.

I wish everyone else could do the same and realize that we're all in this world together. We need to be teaching our children that respect is important, and how to CONSTRUCTIVELY question authority instead of how to just create more societal problems.


By Alexstarfire on 8/7/2008 9:35:27 AM , Rating: 2
You got some facts to back up your statement on who started this?

Ahhh working together.... on a global scale..... yea that's never gonna happen. Socialism doesn't work in the small scale, so why would it work on a large scale?


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By mindless1 on 8/13/2008 8:04:04 PM , Rating: 2
You might be laying the stereotypes on pretty thick, or was this the circle you traveled in and you pirated stuff?

I'd expect the typical filesharers to have been college kids all along. Access to computers, probably more disposible income to buy a computer than someone doing drugs, and as for heavy metal I really don't know but it seems like there were probably MP3s of many different genres. Was the typical computer geek even tending to be a heavy metal pot smoker? Seems like two different stereotypes to me, though possibly some overlap in real people as with any kind of population cross-indexing would cause.


By JonnyDough on 8/7/2008 7:58:16 AM , Rating: 1
I'm not really sure why you brought up the Bible. This wasn't even a religious discussion...


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By 4play on 8/6/2008 11:11:38 AM , Rating: 2
So is lending a CD to a friend wrong? Or giving him/her your PC game you just finished playing? You are distributing it for free, are you not? What about selling your CD or DVD for a profit? None of these are wrong in the non-digital world.

So how come they're all illegal when it comes to distributing online? Simple: corporations are the ones writing the laws to their own benefit. The people hardly have any say in politics other than voting for corrupt politicians who are already in the pocket of corporations.

People have the misconception that sharing media is wrong, it isn't. It's just the media telling you enough times that you actually start to believe it.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Schrag4 on 8/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: I spy with my little eye...
By 4play on 8/6/2008 12:01:31 PM , Rating: 1
That was the limitation of the technology at the time though. Things have changed, technology has improved to the point where multiple people can listen to music at once. There is no reason to force things (via the law) back to the way things were just because it makes an industry irrelevant.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By 4play on 8/6/2008 12:35:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sharing media isn't wrong, as long as only one person is using it at a time.

I'm not a fan of nitpicking, but what about parties? or of you listen to it with a friend?
Just sayin that the "wrong if 1+ listen" logic really isn't a valid point.

sorry for the double post


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By tmouse on 8/6/2008 2:29:32 PM , Rating: 2
Just because you can do something dose not make it right or preventing people from doing it wrong. By your logic no one from now on has any protection for any song, film, game ect. since we can digitally transmit it. Is this what you are saying? Please enlighten us as to the motivation for any one to produce songs or films for a living? Are we supposed to wait until people have the leisure time to create material which they do not expect money for? The "they sold it so they lose any right to control it" argument is just plain foolish. are you saying people only deserve the proceeds for a sale of a single copy to one person then everyone gets it for free? Of course you should be able to use it for your self, on any device at any time. Can you play it at a party, well yes if it’s a rare thing which you get not profit from, but people like DJ should pay a fee every time they use it for their profit. Can you sell it, well yes provided you relinquish your rights to it entirely. Any thing else is just plain foolish. Musicians need to eat, as do film makers and game makers. Yes I know companies make the most from the current system but the indies are also failing due to the utter lack of concern by many. They cannot afford to lose a single sale. Things will never change with the current attitudes toward IP rights.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By 4play on 8/6/2008 2:50:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just because you can do something dose not make it right or preventing people from doing it wrong.


Are you saying that listening to music with a bunch of friends at the same is not right, and that prohibiting it is not wrong? Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that what it sounds like to me.

quote:
Please enlighten us as to the motivation for any one to produce songs or films for a living?

the answer is in your following quote:
quote:
Musicians need to eat, as do film makers and game makers.

Musicians can still preform at venues. Filmmakers still make money from cinema showings (Batman broke records at the box office), Games are more tricky, but you can develop for consoles which are harder to pirate for or have a subscription model (think WoW).

Where is it written that musicians need to become millionaires? If musicians can't have personal jets then they won't make music? What kind of logic is that?

I don't think people should be able to directly profit off of other people's IP though. A professional DJ should pay royalties if he uses the songs and should be prosecuted if he does not pay up. Someone who downloads a song should not, and should definitely not have to do jail time.

The current Anti-piracy measures are not for the artists either, they are for the distribution companies who will turn out to be the real losers if things change.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By oopsie on 8/6/2008 3:42:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Games are more tricky, but you can develop for consoles which are harder to pirate


So, you're in favor of DRM solutions, like locked down consoles etc. then?

I don't understand how people can honestly believe that it's not wrong to give away something that someone else created and is trying to sell. I understand that technology makes it easy to do, but easy doesn't mean right.

It's easy to speed on our roads, but I think most sane people understand the need for school zone speed limits.

Why does anyone think that just because you have a copy of a work and have the right to enjoy it, that gives you the right to DISTRIBUTE it? It's wrong. How wrong, how much damage it does, and to who - this is really the only question.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Alexstarfire on 8/7/2008 5:54:53 AM , Rating: 2
Depends on what you call damage. If instead of profiting $10 million they only profit $5 million, then I wouldn't even care. That is far more than I'll likely make in my lifetime. Now... if this is actually causing artists to lose money... then that IS a problem. However, I have yet to hear of any artist going bankrupt because they lost money on a CD/DVD/song, have you? Furthermore... is the RIAA still making boatloads of cash?


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By tmouse on 8/7/2008 11:56:12 AM , Rating: 2
If your talking about the "big" names then your right, but lots of small groups lose money as their stuff ends up on the net. I know some who was part of a well known 50/60 group, he has told me of numerous opening acts that have a hard time making ends meet and yet they have seen their stuff end up on the net for free. Since they are local it has not helped them one bit.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By tmouse on 8/7/2008 1:48:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you saying that listening to music with a bunch of friends at the same is not right, and that prohibiting it is not wrong? Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that what it sounds like to me.


I do not see how you got to that conclusion. I clearly said the occasional party is ok, running weekly parties and getting money is not.

Simply put MOST actors are not multimillionaires, as most song writers, studio musicians ect they get virtually nothing from live performances of their works, most of that goes to the performer. Residuals often provide the bulk of the revenues non performers’ receive, same with the majority of actors. VERY FEW shows are blockbusters like Batman, that’s just an extremely poor example. Like it or not DVD sales provide the majority of the money the talent gets, same with TV reruns, ripping them off to UTube deprives many people of income. What do you think was a major sticking point in the writers strike? There is no inalienable right to songs, games or films. If you do not like the price you have the right to not pay it BUT you do not have the right to experience it. You also do not have the right to set the price, outside of the impact of not selling the thing if enough people are not willing to pay. Yes distribution houses get the lions share today; guess what that is none of our business, its no excuse to get thing you are not entitled to for free. That’s between the creative talent and the companies and in the cases of TV and film A LOT of progress has been made getting more money for the talent and when people take these things for free they DO hurt the talent.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By 4play on 8/8/2008 11:46:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I do not see how you got to that conclusion. I clearly said the occasional party is ok, running weekly parties and getting money is not.

I apologize, it seems I misunderstood you initial statement and forgot to edit out that part before submitting the comment.

quote:
most song writers, studio musicians ect they get virtually nothing from live performances of their works

So? They get whatever is in their contract. If live performances net them little in royalties then they may move to a fixed cost or a combination of the two.

If the laws change then so do the business models. Today bands go on tour to promote their new album. Instead they could have their online music promote their shows. You can't simply apply the current business model to the new system.
quote:
VERY FEW shows are blockbusters like Batman, that’s just an extremely poor example.

It is not a poor example to demonstrate that movie sales are not being hurt by illegal camming (which I do think is wrong). People go to movies because it is an event.

Before VHS I think the only source for movies were theaters and television. VHS tapes (now DVD and bluray) were never essential to the movie industry's survival, as they make you falsely believe.

As soon as movies start hurting, who do you think will be first to receive cuts from their pay? The big name actors, since their value will drop.

quote:
Yes distribution houses get the lions share today; guess what that is none of our business, its no excuse to get thing you are not entitled to for free.

I agree that it is none of our business how the money is distributed, however if you pay for music you also fund their lawyers which are actively killing your rights to fair use of the content you purchased; and lobbyists who get politicians to create laws like ACTA. I don't feel entitled to free stuff and record companies shouldn't feel entitled to sustain their morbidly high revenues off of CDs.

from one of your comments not directed at me:
quote:
I know some who was part of a well known 50/60 group, he has told me of numerous opening acts that have a hard time making ends meet and yet they have seen their stuff end up on the net for free.

You are jumping to conclusions, just because their content is readily available online does not imply that that is the reason for their hardships. I know a band that gives their CDs away for free (not at their shows though) in an effort to promote themselves.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By tmouse on 8/11/2008 9:38:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So? They get whatever is in their contract. If live performances net them little in royalties then they may move to a fixed cost or a combination of the two.


My point is for the majority in the entertainment industry cd/dvd sales is a major source of income and when someone duplicates a copy instead of buying it they do hurt people who are not multimillionaires. Its simply the desire to get something for nothing that motivates this behavior and since most understand its wrong we lie to ourselves and self justify by saying were just sticking it to the man and no "regular" person is being hurt. That simply is not true. One can stick it to the corporations by simply not buying, this would also of course hurt the same people but at least you are not profiting from it that makes one just as bad.

quote:
It is not a poor example to demonstrate that movie sales are not being hurt by illegal camming (which I do think is wrong). People go to movies because it is an event.


It is a bad example we are not talking about pirated movies hurting movie sales it IS hurting DVD sales. The assumption that anyone who will buy a bootleg Dark Knight copy has no intention of buying it is quite simply absurd. Why get something you do not want? If you do not like the price do not buy it, and then you send a message. Trying to send a message and avoid being without something you want by getting a bootleg is simply just as wrong as they are for charging the price they do.

quote:
You are jumping to conclusions, just because their content is readily available online does not imply that that is the reason for their hardships. I know a band that gives their CDs away for free (not at their shows though) in an effort to promote themselves.


I did not say that was the sole reason of their hardships but it is a large part. If a group wants to give away some as a promotion that’s fine but they clearly need to sell them else they would always give them away. If they start to lose sales because everyone expects free cd's they will not stay in business for long. What I’m getting at is people rip off even the guys starting out and they are the one that can be destroyed the easiest, if the direct musician to fan supply mode is ever to succeed people have to change their ways of thinking. I can see a future where there could be no recording devices, you will never have the chance to own anything, and all music will be directly streamed and you will have to pay every time you listen. That would stink for us all.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By JustTom on 8/7/2008 12:54:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not a fan of nitpicking, but what about parties? or of you listen to it with a friend?


How about only the original copy may be used at one time. As many people within earshot of it can listen, as long as one is not charging people for the right to listen to the music.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Schrag4 on 8/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: I spy with my little eye...
By 4play on 8/6/2008 11:57:12 AM , Rating: 2
Who gets to decide whats wrong and whats right? Society decided that murder was not to be tolerated, The music industry decided that piracy is illegal.

Society decides murder is wrong then passes laws.
Music industry passes anti-piracy laws, then tells society that it's wrong.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

quote:
Actually, it's quite different nowadays. Back in the day, if I shared music with you, I couldn't listen to it until you gave it back to me.

You are right, things are quite different, which is why laws need to deal with things differently not as they did in the past (which is how they are dealing with it now).

The technology had limitations back then, why should we turn back the clock when our technology is so much better?

Hypothetical situation: if there was a cloning machine invented that could replicate ANYTHING with no material cost, for example cloning a car for no cost, would its use be immoral?


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Schrag4 on 8/6/2008 4:21:37 PM , Rating: 2
There were laws against music and movie piracy long before the internet. It's not limited to entertainment, in fact. It all falls under Intellectual Property, if I'm not mistaken.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong. I think the music industry, lately has simply been successful in lobbying to have additional and/or stricter penalties put in place for those caught, and also I think they've been given more power to go after people they suspect are pirating. Is this correct?

I think the idea is still the same as it always has been though. If I produce an album and sell it to one person, that person shouldn't turn around and give free copies to other people.

What about your hypothetical question about cloning a car? Suppose YOU were the one that designed the car in the first place, and it took 10 years of your life, and hundreds of millions of dollars of research and development to complete. Don't you think you're entitled to some sort of royalty for each car produced? Even if it's 'cloned' or 'replicated' as you put it? If the answer is NO, then who in their right mind would go into the business of designing such a car in the first place, knowing that they'll NEVER make back more than a tiny fraction of what they put into the car in the first place?

Actions have consequences. Reminds me of a funny/sad Simpsons quote. Nelson said "Shoplifting is a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark." Funny, but sad because that's more or less the mindset of many, MANY people these days. If you can't single out someone that was hurt by an action, then it's victimless. So Big-Corp gets screwed out of 10 bucks. I'm sure that doesn't hurt anyone, right? Right? (think about it long and hard)


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By JustTom on 8/7/2008 1:01:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Society decides murder is wrong then passes laws.
Music industry passes anti-piracy laws, then tells society that it's wrong.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.


Firstly, Congress passed those anti-piracy laws. So in effect society gave its implicit approval of them by voting the rascals into office... again and again and again. Secondly, of course there is a huge difference between murder and IP piracy. Which is why people can go to jail for life for killing someone and not for ripping movies.

quote:
Hypothetical situation: if there was a cloning machine invented that could replicate ANYTHING with no material cost, for example cloning a car for no cost, would its use be immoral?


Morality is in the eye of the beholder. And something does not need to be immoral to be illegal.


By Alexstarfire on 8/7/2008 6:05:34 AM , Rating: 2
If you really want to call Congress a representation of the people. I for one sure don't. Anyone who can be swayed with money is someone I would not vote for... and as a result I haven't voted for anyone since turning 18 3 years ago. I don't plan on voting in the presidential election either because I feel both sides are complete morons. Politics have been run off of money for far too long. In this day and age we need a much better way of selecting our candidates, and it should start with each county selecting ONE candidate and basically just making it a tournament from there on. 1 per county, then work it down to one per state, then just down to one. Could be done one of two ways, either have them all run at once and select the top half then continue until one is left, or have them face off 1v1 until only 1 is left.

Course advertising will have to be sorted out somehow... but I'm betting those that would want to run can find a way to get some advertisement out there for free. I'm sure deals will have to be made with TV stations, or just a dedicated TV station for nothing but presidential candidates... but it's got to be for free so the candidates are competing on morals, values, ideas, etc... and not about money.


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By frobizzle on 8/7/2008 11:15:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ok, so, because you say something is not wrong, it's not wrong now? What if I say that murder is not wrong and then murder you? I guess that's ok then.

Huh? That analogy is so twisted, not only would it not buy you a cup of coffee, it wouldn't even get you a drink at the water fountain!
quote:
While I agree that it's impossible to put a concrete dollar figure on how much you have lost to piracy, you cannot deny that it is a very real loss in revenue. If you want to listen to the music at your own convenience, commercial free, then buy the music.

Okay, first, let's expand upon the scope of this, beyond only music, and add in movies, software, etc. In every case, purchasing the media is a "final sale" situation. Once you crack the wrapper open, the only way you can return it is if the media is defective and then you can only exchange it for the same identical item. So, what if the music (program, game) is not what you expected or wanted? You don't like it. What are your options? If it is optical media, I suppose you could use it for a coaster or a frisbee or maybe use it to adjust the scope on your new rifle.

A lot (but not all) pirated digital media is used for evaluation purposes. Please be clear, I am not condoning piracy here, merely offering another perspective. There are lots of PC games I have tried out that not only would I not spend $40 - $50 on, I wouldn't spend 40 to 50 cents on! There are others that I have downloaded that were great, better than expected, and I have no qualms to go out and pay the price to purchase them.

Perhaps if these companies had a "try before you buy" policy it may reduce the amount of piracy a little. (Probably not, realistically speaking.)


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Icelight on 8/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: I spy with my little eye...
By Icelight on 8/8/2008 9:45:34 AM , Rating: 2
Haha, wow, that didn't take long to get rated down. I love teenagers who think only of what benefits themselves :D


RE: I spy with my little eye...
By JonnyDough on 8/7/08, Rating: 0
By JonnyDough on 8/7/2008 8:11:20 AM , Rating: 2
There are some that would say "we don't need to get money for music and movies" to which I would answer, "yes, we do."

Are movie stars overpaid? Yes. But, if you want any kind of quality movies in the future, SOMEONE will have to pay. Studios already take a huge gamble on every movie and song artist they back. If they can't get the money back that they invest in movie making, they'll stop making them and movies will start to look like cheesy 1970's porn.


Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By LyCannon on 8/5/2008 7:29:37 PM , Rating: 3
It's good to see that people are fighting back at the illegal activities of these companies. It's distressing to hear how much influence the RIAA/MPAA has in our government, and now our schools.

While piracy is illegal, the investigation of said piracy should be conducted in a proper and legal manner.

Then again, the RIAA/MPAA can just go away and artists can sell their $&*@ on iTunes directly.




RE: Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By RjBass on 8/5/2008 7:43:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then again, the RIAA/MPAA can just go away and artists can sell their $&*@ on iTunes directly.


For real. Why this hasn't happened with more artist and why they haven't dumped the dinosaur RIAA by now is beyond me.


RE: Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By Polynikes on 8/5/2008 8:35:37 PM , Rating: 2
Bands starting out can't afford the stuff the recording companies provide, unfortunately.


RE: Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By Solandri on 8/5/2008 9:28:00 PM , Rating: 3
You can rent a recording studio for a day for few hundred dollars. Heck, for a few thousand you can buy professional-grade recording equipment that would put stuff from the '50s and '60s to shame. If you've got any computer built in the last 7 years, you can mix and edit that music and burn all the CDs you want. Burning CD-Rs is too slow for large volume, but is just fine for an indie band just starting out.

The stranglehold the RIAA has on the business is in the distribution channels. If you go indie, your music will probably never show up on TV in a music video, will probably never be played on national radio (ClearChannel owns most of the radio stations), and will probably never be sold at the big retail stores (RIAA makes sales agreements which prohibit the stores from carrying other music publishers). Internet Radio had a chance to get around this distribution monopoly, but the RIAA killed that. Services like iTunes are the best hope right now. What's needed is a music search service which takes a list of songs you like, and suggests similar songs for you to try out.


RE: Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By bodar on 8/5/2008 11:49:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What's needed is a music search service which takes a list of songs you like, and suggests similar songs for you to try out.


You mean like Pandora? www.pandora.com


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 8/6/2008 8:25:12 AM , Rating: 2
Damn shame that Pandora seems to have a very limited selection. Couldn't even find 50% of the artists I have on my list here.


By 4play on 8/6/2008 11:24:36 AM , Rating: 2
It is indeed sad that the record companies hold so much power. Which is why they are trying to exercise their muscle to restrict the free internet. It is the alternate channel that is out of their control which could potentially topple their industry, which is not necessarily a bad thing.


RE: Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By mindless1 on 8/6/2008 2:40:54 PM , Rating: 2
Someone with the expertise to properly run the recording studio, helpers, all the workers alone will cost you more than a few hundred dollars.

Are you suggesting every musician, or even any of them, are supposed to have all these technical skills to DIY? Thinking anyone but a novice would mix and edit the music on their PC is unrealistic.

Everyone has to start out, how many of these young indie bands would be able to do what you suggest? Very few would produce something people deem worthy of money especially in today's world where there is (still) professionally produced content being shared for free.

Burning CD-Rs is just fine for an indie band starting out? How would they ever make enough money? Remember people aren't going to pay $15 for each CD-R, the time to make these CD-Rs and the equipment (since you could never produce enough volume to live off of with a mere one CD burner) have real costs. I'm not suggesting every, maybe not even most artists should be paid as well as they are but the *manufacture* and distribution costs for those CD-Rs might alone be the selling price, no profit at all in doing so.

I'm not suggesting some studios are worth what they charge, but underestimating the costs isn't any more useful than overestimating them. What needs done is to remove the fat, the middlemen. There should be a recording industry as an industry made up of separate companies but not a mob called the RIAA.

That industry's members need to look at the changing market and make the necessary adjustments to their costs in producing product the same as any other industry would if they really can't operate in today's market and make a profit anymore, but obviously they do make a profit so it's all about their refusal to accept a changing market where their products still have value but not nearly as much value as they once did.


RE: Fighting fire with..um..more fire?
By Alexstarfire on 8/7/2008 6:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
Well, you can get multiple burners or one of those cloning devices that makes like 5 copies at once. Even at a modest 5 minute per CD, doing 5 at a time would yield 60 an hour. Not great for a mass produced work, but that's far more than an indie will ever need, especially if they distribute a lot of copies online via downloads, paid via Paypal or something.

Something got the RIAA interested in the first place. Since they likely didn't have these professional instruments and staff before... they must have produced some pretty good work on their own.

I still agree that the RIAA needs to die. Force them to split up or something so that the music industry can start from scratch.


By mindless1 on 8/13/2008 7:51:14 PM , Rating: 2
You think the typical artist is interested in frantically trying to make CDs all day long?

I'm not saying it's impossible, just impractical to do enough volume to make a living at. Same for selling one copy at a time after receiving a Paypal for it, they'd be better off to hook up with someone's online store but then we get back the same problem as trying to sell at retail, they'll get squeezed out by the big labels most of the time.

Maybe it's most likely on a 'site like Amazon since they have the 3rd party sellers.


Spah is...
By DanoruX on 8/6/2008 11:03:51 AM , Rating: 2
...sappin' mah sentry!

Sorry, had to. :P




RE: Spah is...
By WTFiSJuiCE on 8/6/2008 6:21:47 PM , Rating: 2
The RIAA wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Little do they know that the cake is A SPY!!!


Smoke Screen
By linconmaples on 8/6/2008 8:10:55 PM , Rating: 3
All this IP discussion is a smoke screen for what’s really going on; a giant long time coming market correction. This industry gets convicted of CD price collusion and all the consumer gets back for the 10s, 100s, even thousands of CDs purchased is a measly 7 bucks?

The supply and demand curve for the music industry has been artificially propped up through oligopolistic practices for the last 20 -30 years. Only now with the onset of a new technology is this paradigm of RIAA (and gov. sanctioned) corruption able to topple. Like any market correction there will be people who don’t like it and resist. In the end they only hurt the consumer and content creators. In the end the pendulum swung and it swung hard.

The music companies and RIAA had just as much of a chance as Apple or anyone else to ride the wave of digital music. They were short sighted, lethargic, bloated, and lacked the infrastructure to take advantage of an extremely rare opportunity. Someone will and is profiting from digital media, just not the RIAA and who it represents. If the RIAA were half as clever as the lawyers they hire to prosecute we wouldn’t be discussing this. This industry should be in record profits due to the distribution advantage and other positive (exploitable) revenue/profit attributes of digital media. Artists need to quit whining and drive the change in their own industry to fix its ills.

Thankfully for us the record industry is a little slow and the consumer gets the market correction it was due.




haha
By meepstone on 8/6/2008 6:28:25 PM , Rating: 2
So the RIAA hired a company to break the law to find people breaking the law???

Ironic.




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