backtop


Print 35 comment(s) - last by EVdriver.. on Sep 20 at 10:32 AM


Prius v

Prius Plug-in Hybrid
Toyota's newest hybrids get priced

We've talked about the Prius Plug-in Hybrid and the Prius v on a number of occasions here on DailyTech. Now, we have official pricing for both of the new hybrids.

The Prius v will start at $27,140 when it launches in the U.S. this fall. The Prius v uses the same hybrid powertrain as the standard Prius, but has a larger cargo area behind the rear seats (34.3 cu ft versus 21.6 cu ft). The Prius v weighs 200 pounds more than the standard Prius, so fuel economy suffers. Combined fuel economy for the Prius v is 40mpg instead of the loftier 50mpg for the regular Prius.

The Prius Plug-in Hybrid will be priced from $32,760. The new lithium-ion battery pack in the plug-in variant allows the vehicle to travel up to 15 miles on battery power alone (at speeds up to 62mph). After the 15 miles is exhausted, Prius Plug-in Hybrid will operate exactly like any other Prius hybrid. 

Toyota says that the Prius Plug-in Hybrid can be charged in 1.5 hours using a 240V outlet or 2 to 3 hours using a 120V outlet. 

The Prius Plug-in Hybrid also qualifies for a $2,500 federal tax credit.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Disappointed
By Keeir on 9/16/2011 6:28:17 PM , Rating: 5
I am very disappointed in Toyota.

The price and feature list of that Plug-in clearly show that Toyota is attempting to "price match" a Volt/Leaf while ignoring that the Prius Plug-In is really only an EV below 60 mph on flat roads in 70 degree weather and less than 15 miles since last charge.

Leaf is full time EV
Volt is full time EV up to 35 miles since last charge.




RE: Disappointed
By bjacobson on 9/16/2011 7:04:14 PM , Rating: 4
knowing the Japanese they are always modest with their assessments. It's probably more like 20 miles per charge. In addition it's actually ~80% made in the USA unlike GMs these days (notice now at car shows they're allowed to stamp "made in America" without specifying which part of "America"-- Mexico counts as America under the origination reporting rules Congress passed). Finally, the Prius has a proven track record of still going strong even after 12+ years of use.

Now, all this said, I think GM's gas-powered-generator is a more elegant design.


RE: Disappointed
By Keeir on 9/16/2011 7:28:26 PM , Rating: 2
Errr.... what?

In Europe, Toyota is claiming 14.3 miles.

I think the same thing will happen. 15 miles is based on the City Cycle (UDDS) alone. Similiar to how the 100 mile lead was based on the LA04 cycle. If a fair evaluation of testing cycles was done in all electric mode, I think the Toyota would get ~12-14 miles predicted. It can't of course finish 3/5 of the EPA rating cycles without using a gasoline engine however.


RE: Disappointed
By jang_clangle on 9/16/2011 8:34:58 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry to reply twice but I forgot to point out that your definition of "racist" is a logical fallacy -- a variant of the etymological fallacy in fact.


RE: Disappointed
By jang_clangle on 9/16/2011 8:37:56 PM , Rating: 2
My reply above ended up in the wrong spot for some reason. **sigh**


RE: Disappointed
By Hiawa23 on 9/17/2011 2:46:02 AM , Rating: 2
That little ugly car should be cheaper than that


RE: Disappointed
By Samus on 9/18/11, Rating: 0
RE: Disappointed
By kjboughton on 9/16/11, Rating: -1
RE: Disappointed
By jang_clangle on 9/16/2011 8:28:19 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
quote:
...knowing the Japanese they are always modest with their assessments.
I would just like to point out for the record that this is a racists statement. That it is not disparaging to the race does not matter. You are making a broad generalization based on race alone. Ergo, racist.


No, it isn't racist to notice and point out cultural attributes. Of course generally speaking, making broad generalizations is playing fast and loose with reality and thus often inaccurate -- but it certainly isn't racist. Different cultures do behave differently and have different values, pretending otherwise is just silly.


RE: Disappointed
By Icebain on 9/17/2011 12:17:18 PM , Rating: 2
It's a country, culture, and a "race". The first two are much more applicable than the 3rd.


RE: Disappointed
By Dr of crap on 9/19/2011 10:38:34 AM , Rating: 1
Sorry - no PC allowed here!


RE: Disappointed
By celestialgrave on 9/16/11, Rating: 0
RE: Disappointed
By bjacobson on 9/17/2011 5:14:43 PM , Rating: 2
wrong their all assembled in the states
they're the most american cars this has been independently verified by consumer reports among many other unbiased reporting agnecies


RE: Disappointed
By bjacobson on 9/17/11, Rating: 0
RE: Disappointed
By quiksilvr on 9/16/2011 11:50:03 PM , Rating: 2
Um, you do realize the Chevy Volt is $40,000 before the $7500 tax cut, right? This is $32,000 before a $2500 cut, meaning it's going to be over $2000 cheaper.


RE: Disappointed
By Hiawa23 on 9/17/2011 2:45:17 AM , Rating: 2
If this are the prices we can expect from from these hybrids, I think I will stick gasoline engines.


RE: Disappointed
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 9/17/2011 11:48:56 AM , Rating: 5
Disappointed?

Hell, I think this addition makes the Prius plug-in even more of a slam dunk versus the Volt.

The official EPA electric range for the Volt is 35 miles. The total driving range of the Volt is 379 (electric range + gas). The Prius Plug-in Hybrid has a 15-mile battery-only range. The total driving range of a regular Prius is close to 600 miles.

Not to mention that once you're out of battery "juice" on the Volt, you're only going to be getting around 37 mpg from the gasoline engine. The Prius is rated in the high 40s in either the city or the highway.

On top of that, the Prius Plug-in:

1) Has a lower transaction price (before credits): $39,000 vs $32,000.
2) Seats five people instead of four.
3) Can accept a center child seat.
4) Has twice the cargo space with the rear seats up, and four times the cargo space with the rear seats down.
5) Has proven reliability and resale value.
6) Has greater leg/foot room in the front and back seats.
7) Can fully recharge its battery pack in less time with a regular 120V outlet.
8) The Volt takes premium gasoline, the Prius uses regular

I could go on and on...

Disappointed? Hardly.


RE: Disappointed
By Keeir on 9/17/2011 3:42:48 PM , Rating: 2
Errr...

I don't think you've read the specs of the Prius Plug-In. Its available at toyota.com already.

The Plug-in seems to command 7,000 or so dollar premium MSRP+ over the standard Prius.

For 7,000 dollars, one seems to get ~15 miles of EV range that only works upto loads of around 25-30 hp (note the max speed of ~62 mph). 15 miles based on what duty cycle? This is unknown...

Although Toyota has a long run established record of quality...

Lithium batteries are tricky. The Volt contains a 16 kWh battery which only ~8-9kWh is used for the electric range. Allowing for significant reduction

The Prius PHEV contains a 4.4 kWh battery. In 3-5 years when the battery is ~3.6 kWh or less.. what will the range be then?

Looking at the price and specs, I am unsure why someone would buy this PHEV... unless they wanted an EV. If they want an EV, there are better options on the market from full-time Leaf to the Volt.

It seems to take the same market position as the Honda Insight. An EV/PHEV on a budget... but not quite as good as the others. Just like the Insight, it seems a fine car for Japan and part of Europe... but not really for the US. (Almost all high mileage drivers in the US drive more than 62 mph).

Maybe the Prius name will be enough to carry it to the top in sales... but without a special shape... it seems to fall into the same problem the "hybrid" models of popular sedans fall into...


RE: Disappointed
By Spuke on 9/17/2011 4:01:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Almost all high mileage drivers in the US drive more than 62 mph
I can't remember why but I was looking for this info a couple of weeks ago. Do you have a link or search criteria for that? I'm really interested in that.


RE: Disappointed
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 9/17/2011 4:12:53 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, I know the specs of the Prius Plug-in quite well...

My point was, especially for families, the regular Prius at $22,000 for a base model already is a much better vehicle/value than a Volt. Besides the price difference, there are the points I made above (cargo/passenger space, regular vs premium unleaded, mpg when the motor is running, etc.).

No matter which way you slice it, a $22,000 Prius at 49 mpg make more financial sense than a Volt.

If you just absolutely just WANT to drive on battery only, the Prius Plug-in has the advantage of being able to operate like an EV for a short while AND get fuel economy like a normally Prius (49 mpg) when the portion of the battery dedicated for EV is exhausted.

On the other hand, the Volt operates like an EV for 35 miles, then gets the fuel economy of a regular compact car (37 mpg) when the battery runs out.

If you're an empty nester who only drives in the city and doesn't take highway trips, the Volt is probably for you. But for everyone else, either Prius makes much more financial sense IMHO.

As for the Leaf, it'd make a good second car for many people, but I doubt it would be able to serve as your ONLY vehicle.


RE: Disappointed
By Keeir on 9/17/2011 5:00:14 PM , Rating: 2
Brandon,

The Prius is a fanastic car for small families. There is no doubt about it.

But first, lets stop lying about pricing. A Prius costs a minimum of 24,450. And this does not include car mats even. A equavalent "Volt" Prius costs upwards of 28,000. A equavalent "Volt" Plug-in Prius would be ~35,000... if they let people add the options required... which they may not.

Second, lets stop distorting things. 37 MPG is the Volt's combined cycle fuel economy number. Similiar to the Cruze Eco's 34 MPG number. Its only 10% better then the very best 'normal' compact car. And 20% better than most 'normal' compact cars. Its also true its 20% worse than the Prius's combined number.

Third, lets be honest. Toyota claims the PHEV Prius may get 15 miles and may operate up to 62 mph provided you don't use Air Conditioning, go up hills, need to accelerate, etc. The PHEV Prius is incapable of completeing 3 of the 5 EPA cycles in EV mode. Consider your own driving habits. Unless your an empty nester who lives in the City, you unlikely to be able to use the PHEV Pruis's full EV range.

If you drive under 20 miles between recharges without going on the highway, a PHEV Prius may be a good choice... but its hard to see how you can rack up enough miles to make it worthwhile.

If you drive between 25-50 miles between recharges, a Volt may be a good choice.

If you drive more than 50 miles between recharges, a normal Prius would likely be better than PHEV Prius or Volt.

The question is, how many people driving <20 miles between recharges want to spend an extra 5k over a normal Prius to drive EV but aren't willing to deal with the Leaf's compromises which actually costs less after rebate.


RE: Disappointed
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 9/17/2011 5:34:02 PM , Rating: 2
1) Pricing. Either Edmunds is giving the wrong pricing, or something else is going on:

2011 Prius One, MSRP $22,100
http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2011/

I usually go to Edmunds to make quick pricing comparisons across various makes/models, so if their information wrong, I'll concede to this point.

2) I DID that that 37 mpg was one the gasoline engine took over -- it is the combined fuel economy number on gasoline-only per the EPA. I probably shouldn't have said that it's comparable to regular compact cars as its combined is about 3 mpg better than the best compact.

But if we're going to play the numbers game, the Volt is 26% worse than the Prius' combined rating on gasoline-only, not 20%. The Prius is actually 50mpg EPA combined.

3) As to your other points, I would actually have to agree and go back on the statement about the Prius Plug-in being a slam dunk -- it should be the regular Prius that is the slam dunk.

Given the regular Prius' price point and it's fuel efficiency, its a tough act to beat.

The EPA puts the "fuel cost" of going 15,000 miles in a Volt on battery power alone at $648. They put the cost of going 15,000 on gasoline only at $1,580

The cost of a regular Prius going 15,000 miles is listed at $1,098. If you NEVER EVER EVER tap into the gasoline engine on the Volt, then $648 is extremely low. But odds are, you're going to be hitting that gasoline engine a bit and that number is going to inch closer and closer to the Prius' $1,098 fuel cost for 15,000 miles.

Take into account the price differential, and I can't really make a case for the Volt at all.


RE: Disappointed
By Apone on 9/19/2011 11:52:42 AM , Rating: 2
@ Keeir

- $28,000 - $33,000 for a Toyota Prius is nothing new. Toyota has been doing this for years while the Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf were still being engineered. They know tree-hugging customers will pay the price premium considering the gas scare/increase having started back in 2008.


Please, allow me to clarify...
By kjboughton on 9/16/2011 7:30:17 PM , Rating: 2
"The Prius Plug-in Hybrid also qualifies for a $2,500 federal tax credit."

Translation: The Federal Government has, by decree, decided to allow each new owner to take from the general treasury a sum total of $2,500 for the purchase of said vehicle.

Public money going to private entities...

This is effectively no different than the current administration's decision to "loan" (read: lose) public funds at risk to a private corporation (Solyndra) in pursuit of similarly non-economically feasible "green" initiatives. Except in this case there is no claim that the money spent will ever be recouped.

The purpose for which is to subsidize the cost of owning such a vehicle as the true market price would otherwise make the business model wholly untenable. The, not surprisingly, is abhorrent to free market principles, which, in preferable circumstances, would normally dictate which businesses ultimately survive, and which do not (based on popular consumer sentiment, rather than central government planning).

It would be rather funny, were it not so depressing, that a party that purports to support true "democracy" would rather rule the markets by dictate than allow for the will of the people to prevail.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury ."

Hey, I've got a great idea: why don't we return to the ideals of our founding and start behaving as those the Constitution means something. Restore the Republic!




RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By EricMartello on 9/17/2011 12:27:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is effectively no different than the current administration's decision to "loan" (read: lose) public funds at risk to a private corporation (Solyndra) in pursuit of similarly non-economically feasible "green" initiatives. Except in this case there is no claim that the money spent will ever be recouped.


I've said this many times before - electric cars and hybrids are not the solution to anything. They're less efficient than current turbo-diesel engines and have comparatively lower performance. As for fuel, they would only shift the dependence from petroleum to coal if they were widely adopted.

Almost all of the "green" energy and products are worse than the "dirty" tech they claim to be improving upon. Most people involved with anything "green" are just in it to bilk grant money or easy loans from the government.

quote:
Hey, I've got a great idea: why don't we return to the ideals of our founding and start behaving as those the Constitution means something. Restore the Republic!


The vast majority of the people will not lift a finger to do anything until they feel like they have nothing left to lose. As bad as things have become economically in the recent years, people still have not hit rock bottom and still live more comfortably than someone in a third-world country.


By bjacobson on 9/17/2011 1:35:19 AM , Rating: 1
on the bright side Chevy is only selling a few hundred per month so we needn't worry about the cost to the general public.


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By HotFoot on 9/17/2011 10:42:22 AM , Rating: 3
Agree. Golf TDI fully loaded is in this price range (got one earlier this year). I'm getting ~6 L/100 km (39 mpg) city and 5 L/100 km (47 mpg) highway, plus diesel doesn't spike in price as badly as gas, at least in Ontario.

The odd longer trip I'm at 4.6 L/100 km (51 mpg), but my usual driving habits push it up.

My friend owns a 2 year old Prius (his 2nd Prius, the first lasing him 8 years). The car is pretty good around town and he gets slightly better mileage than me. But everything else - fit and finish, handling, looks (IMO) go to the Golf.


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By idiot77 on 9/18/2011 1:09:42 PM , Rating: 2
Really? It's not a problem until we're competing with 3rd world countries?

You're insane. We use to strive to be the top, now not being at the absolute bottom is okay?

By the way, we're already getting smoked in health care. Why not add to it?

The income disparity will be the end of the US as we know it. With the American Taliban and Wall Street folks running things, I expect us to look something like Saudi Arabia.


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By Solandri on 9/19/2011 9:07:10 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I've said this many times before - electric cars and hybrids are not the solution to anything. They're less efficient than current turbo-diesel engines and have comparatively lower performance.

They are more efficient that diesel. You have to remember that 1 gallon of diesel = 1.15 gallons of gasoline when refined from the same source.

There's also the issue of which fuels are cost-effective to refine from crude oil. In a nutshell, 100% diesel is most expensive, 100% gasoline is less expensive, and a mix of diesel and gasoline is least expensive. So any comprehensive energy strategy seeking to minimize cost will use both gasoline and diesel solutions.

And there is nothing preventing you from sticking a hybrid electric drivetrain onto a diesel engine.

quote:
As for fuel, they would only shift the dependence from petroleum to coal if they were widely adopted.

That's the point. Not that I like coal, but the U.S. is the world's Saudi Arabia of coal. It has some of the most extensive coal deposits in the world.


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By Dr of crap on 9/19/2011 10:49:06 AM , Rating: 2
Really??
You want us to burn MORE coal?
That's better than burning gas or diesel?
I know they have cleaned up in the smoke stacks, but there is NO WAY coal is better for our air quality than gas or diesel.
You don't get black lung from getting oil out of the ground or making gas from crude oil.
Make bio-diesel and burn that and you're way better than EVs in all respects!


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By Gurthang on 9/19/2011 4:31:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You want us to burn MORE coal?

Not really but there are other ways to produce energy and coal can be made cleaner. If you don't mind the additional costs.

quote:
That's better than burning gas or diesel?
I know they have cleaned up in the smoke stacks, but there is NO WAY coal is better for our air quality than gas or diesel.

You realize even with all the emission control devices and restrictions on sulfur in the base fuel for our cars now there is still a smog problem. In general it is easier to contol the polution of a few highly efficient generators than it is to control the output of millions of vehicles which may get little or no maintence.

quote:
You don't get black lung from getting oil out of the ground or making gas from crude oil.

No you get oil rigs blowing up, tankers spilling, piplines bursting, etc. Black lung is a little old school, not that it can't happen now but lets just say both have risks and neither has a perfect saftey record.

quote:
Make bio-diesel and burn that and you're way better than EVs in all respects!

While I prefer bio-diesel over dino-diesel for emissions reasons I still lump it in the same category as corn-ethanol. (Sounds good when you are using a waste stream for you stock but far from a solution for the whole fleet.)

As to electric vehicles and most plug-in hybrids unless you only drive very short distances they just don't make sense in this generation. 100% electric is ultimatly the most efficient way to go, the trick is how you get the power.


By EricMartello on 9/20/2011 12:28:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not really but there are other ways to produce energy and coal can be made cleaner. If you don't mind the additional costs.


If the majority of the world's electric power was coming from modern nuclear power plants, EVs and plug-in hybrids would actually be worth considering if the goal is to reduce fossil fuel dependence...but due to the general "fear" of nuclear power, most electricity comes from coal-fired plants. Yes, there are ways to burn coal more cleanly than the old days, but retrofitting old, dirty plants isn't high on the priority list.

quote:
You realize even with all the emission control devices and restrictions on sulfur in the base fuel for our cars now there is still a smog problem. In general it is easier to contol the polution of a few highly efficient generators than it is to control the output of millions of vehicles which may get little or no maintence.


Smog as a result of vehicle emissions has largely been eliminated due to the catalytic converter...and industrial emissions are already 'regulated', yet they still contribute to the majority of the pollutants in the air today. Did you stop to think about the costs involved with scrubbing the emissions of a power plant that runs 24/7/365 vs a car that drives 12K-15K miles per year?

quote:
While I prefer bio-diesel over dino-diesel for emissions reasons I still lump it in the same category as corn-ethanol. (Sounds good when you are using a waste stream for you stock but far from a solution for the whole fleet.)


The alternative "bio" fuels did not improve on emissions; they were primarily concocted as an alternate source. Bio-diesel is not in the same category as corn-ethanol because bio-diesel can be produced from bio-WASTE material whereas corn-ethanol takes away from a resource we already depend on - corn and corn-based products.


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By EVdriver on 9/20/2011 10:32:13 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I know they have cleaned up in the smoke stacks, but there is NO WAY coal is better for our air quality than gas or diesel. You don't get black lung from getting oil out of the ground or making gas from crude oil. Make bio-diesel and burn that and you're way better than EVs in all respects!


You're flat out wong too.

http://www.electroauto.com/info/pollmyth.shtml


By EricMartello on 9/20/2011 12:15:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They are more efficient that diesel. You have to remember that 1 gallon of diesel = 1.15 gallons of gasoline when refined from the same source.


That is not a measure of efficiency and I'm not even sure it is factually accurate...but it is a fact that diesel fuel contains more energy per equal unit of volume than gasoline, which means you can burn less diesel fuel to get the same power compared to a similar gasoline engine. In other words, diesel is fundamentally more efficient.

quote:
There's also the issue of which fuels are cost-effective to refine from crude oil. In a nutshell, 100% diesel is most expensive, 100% gasoline is less expensive, and a mix of diesel and gasoline is least expensive. So any comprehensive energy strategy seeking to minimize cost will use both gasoline and diesel solutions.


The reason diesel fuel is higher now than it was about a decade ago is due to the "ultra low sulfur" requirement being imposed on it, which requires additional refining. Diesel engines are quite flexible about the types of fuel they can operate on. As long as the fuel has enough stored energy and appropriate octane value.

quote:
And there is nothing preventing you from sticking a hybrid electric drivetrain onto a diesel engine.


Because making the drivetrain more complex for little added benefit is the way to go to "minimize costs", right?

quote:
That's the point. Not that I like coal, but the U.S. is the world's Saudi Arabia of coal. It has some of the most extensive coal deposits in the world.


So my original point stands. Hybrids and EVs are nothing more than an attempt at a paradigm shift to make the US the worlds energy dealer. They do nothing to improve the environment or reduce dependence on fossil fuels as their propaganda touts.


RE: Please, allow me to clarify...
By EVdriver on 9/20/2011 10:24:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've said this many times before - electric cars and hybrids are not the solution to anything. They're less efficient than current turbo-diesel engines and have comparatively lower performance.


Ok, then you're flat out wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySR0flj6QnQ

Please educate yourself before spreading complete BS.


"Let's face it, we're not changing the world. We're building a product that helps people buy more crap - and watch porn." -- Seagate CEO Bill Watkins














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki