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The Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement may be place by the end of 2008

DailyTech was among the first to break news of the Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement.  The international agreement, to which details were being ironed out, would demand investment in large policing organizations to "bust" those who download and share music and movies.

The bill was well received at the G8 meeting, the meeting of the world's largest economic superpowers which takes place each July.  The G8 published a document entitled "Declaration on the World Economy".  The document contains a section "Protection of Intellectual Property Rights", which contains the following update on the status of the ACTA legislation:

We encourage the acceleration of negotiations to establish a new international legal framework, ACTA, and seek to complete the negotiation by the end of this year.

Thus it appears that ACTA may be set in place by the end of the year.  The new policy allows random warrantless search and seizures at the border.  Under ACTA, border patrol agents will be able to seize peoples’ laptops, iPods, and other electronics which they suspect contain illegally-obtained media.  If the border patrol thinks they've found such media on the devices, they are authorized to destroy them at their discretion.

The law may affect many due to the heavy prevalence of file sharing and other forms of copyright infringement in the U.S. What may surprise some, however, is that such seizure provisions are already in place albeit in a different form.

Recently released information reveals that the Department of Homeland Security has been granted the power to without any suspicion of wrongdoing seize travelers’ "device(s) capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including “hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes" as well as "all papers and other written documentation."  After seizure, the materials may be taken off site.  The contents of the laptops can then be shared with other agencies and/or private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons.

The policies were apparently put in place July 16 by two DHS agencies: U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.  They have existed in a similar, but undocumented form previously.  Interestingly, while the policy contains provisions to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, they have no provisions to protect personal medical records or other personal data like financial records.

Privacy advocacy groups are outraged and considering legal action.  "They're saying they can rifle through all the information in a traveler's laptop without having a smidgen of evidence that the traveler is breaking the law," said Greg Nojeim, senior counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology.

Some in the U.S. government are condemning the privileges and demanding a probe into whether the government is using its power to abuse citizens’ rights.  They argue that just cause, one of the foundations of the U.S. government is being trampled.  "The policies . . . are truly alarming," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.).

Sen. Feingold will soon be proposing legislation to require reasonable suspicion at border searches and ban profiling based on race, religion or national origin, which is thought to occur.

On the other side of the fence is the Department of Homeland Security which argues that the measures are necessary to protect against terrorism.  Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern stated that the policies "do not infringe on Americans' privacy."  He argues that the policy predates the war on terror, stating that the government has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drug traffic and transportation of other contraband.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff voiced his opinions in support of the bill in a strongly worded editorial in USA Today, in which he says that the searches have "violent jihadist materials" as well as child porn.  He also argues that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices."

He says unfortunately, travelers themselves cannot be detained without suspicion, stating that "as a practical matter, travelers only go to secondary [for a more thorough examination] when there is some level of suspicion."  He, however, warned, "Yet legislation locking in a particular standard for searches would have a dangerous, chilling effect as officers' often split-second assessments are second-guessed."

Those looking to challenge the policies in court will have a tough road ahead.  The seizures without suspicion were upheld in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco, setting a legal precedent.





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Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/3/2008 9:37:31 PM , Rating: 5
Just one more straw on the camel's back. Now we get to choose between a socialist or a fascist for our next president.

I can only imagine how the US is going to look when the next "terrorist" attack occurs.....which is inevitably going to happen.... seeing as how we pre-emptively attacked and occupied a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." -Herman Göring, Nazi War Criminal during the Nuremberg Trials




RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Darkefire on 8/3/2008 11:04:51 PM , Rating: 3
The scariest part of all this is how little people realize until they're the ones in the crosshairs, at which point it's too late. Frankly, I'll vote for the socialist at this point; at the very least, he's promising to make the government work for society, instead of promising to make the government "protect" society. I think we've had just about all the protection we can stomach over the past eight years, and I hope the American public has finally woken up to the realization that 1984 is no longer just a scary story, but a technological reality. Parting with an extra $50 a year is a small price to pay if I know the guy in office isn't using it to pad a military budget or pay for yet another unconstitutional wiretap.

I dearly hope ACTA gets shot to pieces soon (along with all the other RIAA/MPAA-sponsored IP legislation), but I suspect it won't take long after the first laptop is seized that the whole mess comes crashing down. Telling people you're going to be relieving them of their $2,000 laptop or their $300 i-Pod because you can't prove that you own everything on there is quite a bit different than taking a bag of fruit or a sandwich.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By rudolphna on 8/3/2008 11:38:27 PM , Rating: 3
Totally 100% agree with everything you said there. Especially that last bit. They aint taking my $3000 laptop because i have some non-DRM songs in itunes.


By jtesoro on 8/6/2008 12:58:13 AM , Rating: 2
I won't take sides in the heated political debate below (be warned, dear readers), but I think that in the "war on terror", the terrorists are winning. The techniques that the US is using to combat them is causing the country to lose what it's supposedly fighting for: freedom.

The US is the land of the free? It's getting less and less so.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 6:23:48 AM , Rating: 2
Wow. Idiots like you make me fear for this country. Please move to Europe if you want the kind of government Obama would like to realize.

It's the job of the president to protect this country numb nuts. So whether Obama or McCain is president, its still their job to do it. Just which do you think will do it better?

Way to believe the liberal media that McCain is a war monger though. "Oh he said he could see our troops in Iraq for 100 years! He wants to be at war for 100 years!" Is there something you eat that makes you that stupid? So I can avoid it. McCain is far from perfect but at least he supports getting us off foreign oil in a way that doesn't kill the economy and destroys American's ability to get to work and buy food.

You're right though. Obama is nothing but a socialist. One that will make the debt soar to all new heights with his proposed programs that will have no way to be paid for even with his tax increases. We're already in deep shit for the entitlement programs we're on the hook for now. And he just wants to expand and expand them and add all new ones.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By frobizzle on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 11:02:42 AM , Rating: 2
Because universal health care is nothing but a massive redistribution of wealth. It takes money from those who pay taxes, and gives it to those who don't in the form of health care. It creates a situation where people CAN'T get the health care they want or need because there's either a line they have to wait in or, if they want to pay for it, they can't.

Look at Oregon in the recent news. Oregon pretty much has a statewide health care system akin to universal health care. Recently a lady was told that the system would not cover the medication for her lung cancer that reappeared. But she was told that the system would cover assisted suicide. So we'll help you kill yourself (which gets you off the system) but we won't give you the medication that helps you stay alive.... Now under a private system you have the option of getting that medication covered under your health care plan depending on what kind of coverage you get. Luckily one of those evil bastard profit making drug companies stepped in and gave the lady the medication for free.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12857

Look at Britain with its dental system and waits for surgery. You often have to wait for a year or more for surgery. Nor do you get the semi-annual or annual checkups you typically get here in the US. And getting a dental visit is practically impossible from what I've heard from co-workers who lived over there. And there are no private doctors should you choose and the money to pay for it.

Yes universal health care sounds great. I'll get worse health care than what I have now (I have good health care). And I get to pay for my own as well as everyone else's. Both other people who pay for it and those who don't. No thank you. I pay for quite enough for other people already.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 11:18:44 AM , Rating: 2
And how do they make it cheaper dumbass? By subsidizing it with tax dollars. Which means I'm paying both for my own and others health care.

And if you were in a country with universal health care, you'd likely have to wait days, weeks, or months for said scan.

Do you know what they do in Britain? They have a law that says patients have to be seen in 4 hours after arriving. So what do they do? They leave patients in ambulances.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 11:30:15 AM , Rating: 4
Exactly. Here is something I hope the socialists will read.

"As a medical doctor, I’ve seen first-hand how bureaucratic red tape interferes with the doctor-patient relationship and drives costs higher. The current system of third-party payers takes decision-making away from doctors, leaving patients feeling rushed and worsening the quality of care. Yet health insurance premiums and drug costs keep rising. Clearly a new approach is needed. Congress needs to craft innovative legislation that makes health care more affordable without raising taxes or increasing the deficit. It also needs to repeal bad laws that keep health care costs higher than necessary.

We should remember that HMOs did not arise because of free-market demand, but rather because of government mandates. The HMO Act of 1973 requires all but the smallest employers to offer their employees HMO coverage, and the tax code allows businesses – but not individuals – to deduct the cost of health insurance premiums. The result is the illogical coupling of employment and health insurance, which often leaves the unemployed without needed catastrophic coverage.

While many in Congress are happy to criticize HMOs today, the public never hears how the present system was imposed upon the American people by federal law. As usual, government intervention in the private market failed to deliver the promised benefits and caused unintended consequences, but Congress never blames itself for the problems created by bad laws. Instead, we are told more government – in the form of “universal coverage” – is the answer. But government already is involved in roughly two-thirds of all health care spending, through Medicare, Medicaid, and other programs.

For decades, the U.S. healthcare system was the envy of the entire world. Not coincidentally, there was far less government involvement in medicine during this time. America had the finest doctors and hospitals, patients enjoyed high-quality, affordable medical care, and thousands of private charities provided health services for the poor. Doctors focused on treating patients, without the red tape and threat of lawsuits that plague the profession today. Most Americans paid cash for basic services, and had insurance only for major illnesses and accidents. This meant both doctors and patients had an incentive to keep costs down, as the patient was directly responsible for payment, rather than an HMO or government program.

The lesson is clear: when government and other third parties get involved, health care costs spiral. The answer is not a system of outright socialized medicine, but rather a system that encourages everyone – doctors, hospitals, patients, and drug companies – to keep costs down. As long as “somebody else” is paying the bill, the bill will be too high.

The following are bills Congress should pass to reduce health care costs and leave more money in the pockets of families:

HR 3075 provides truly comprehensive health care reform by allowing families to claim a tax credit for the rising cost of health insurance premiums. With many families now spending close to $1000 or even more for their monthly premiums, they need real tax relief – including a dollar-for-dollar credit for every cent they spend on health care premiums – to make medical care more affordable.

HR 3076 is specifically designed to address the medical malpractice crisis that threatens to drive thousands of American doctors – especially obstetricians – out of business. The bill provides a dollar-for-dollar tax credit that permits consumers to purchase "negative outcomes" insurance prior to undergoing surgery or other serious medical treatments. Negative outcomes insurance is a novel approach that guarantees those harmed receive fair compensation, while reducing the burden of costly malpractice litigation on the health care system. Patients receive this insurance payout without having to endure lengthy lawsuits, and without having to give away a large portion of their award to a trial lawyer. This also drastically reduces the costs imposed on physicians and hospitals by malpractice litigation. Under HR 3076, individuals can purchase negative outcomes insurance at essentially no cost.

HR 3077 makes it more affordable for parents to provide health care for their children. It creates a $500 per child tax credit for medical expenses and prescription drugs that are not reimbursed by insurance. It also creates a $3,000 tax credit for dependent children with terminal illnesses, cancer, or disabilities. Parents who are struggling to pay for their children's medical care, especially when those children have serious health problems or special needs, need every extra dollar.

HR 3078 is commonsense, compassionate legislation for those suffering from cancer or other terminal illnesses. The sad reality is that many patients battling serious illnesses will never collect Social Security benefits – yet they continue to pay into the Social Security system. When facing a medical crisis, those patients need every extra dollar to pay for medical care, travel, and family matters. HR 3078 waives the employee portion of Social Security payroll taxes (or self-employment taxes) for individuals with documented serious illnesses or cancer. It also suspends Social Security taxes for primary caregivers with a sick spouse or child. There is no justification or excuse for collecting Social Security taxes from sick individuals who literally are fighting for their lives."

-Ron Paul


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 12:13:12 PM , Rating: 3
Well Said!

But then what does a doctor know of the pains of the health care system....


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/4/08, Rating: 0
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Bender 123 on 8/4/2008 2:00:44 PM , Rating: 3
Dude, as a clinic manager, I can say, most doctors and hospitals are not greedy, but they do need money to buy the staff, machines and supplies that you need for care. Asking for insurance is a basic way of getting those funds.

A very wise professor once said the most important lesson you can learn in health care, is that not for profit is not the same as against making a profit. Most health care companies make very little profit or even break even. We consider break even to be a very successful year.

The moment a doctor decides to save you some money by forgoing the latest diagnostic machinery is the day you will start complaining that your doctor missed a diagnosis...Believe me when I say I just had to cough up $14,000 for a high frequency ultrasound probe. It costs over 35,000 for a new ultrasound system. Millions for a MRI or PET scanner...


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Bender 123 on 8/5/2008 10:10:36 AM , Rating: 3
Your type of thought never ceases to amaze...
I hear it on a daily basis, folks that buy their daily $5 a pack smokes, drive $40,000 cars, live in $300,000+ houses, dont blink when dropping $1500 on a computer/sound system/HD rig, but come and complain that the person that treats their cancer/diabetes/CHF/Asthma charges too much.

These people save your life better than anyone else in the world and people still complain about the price. The reason you sighted:

quote:
To which I say, tough... You knew going in this would happen, and lots of businesses have to deal with overhead. I don't see them complaining as much.


is the reason why many clinics and hospitals need to import doctors from India or Pakistan. Most primary care docs get very few days off, work weekends to cover hospital call, and cram 30+ patients per day into their clinic schedules, in order to meet productivity standards. They may be late meeting with you, or cancel your appointment, but it is usually due to somebody in worse shape than you (birth/emergency coverage/urgent visit add ons) they are busy attending to.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/5/2008 10:44:58 AM , Rating: 1
My mother has cancer. She isn't living in a house, and she makes all of 27,000 a year or so (she lives on her own). Thanks to her crappy insurance she has to do copays of 25 dollars just to visit a doctors office, and that's before even talking to a doctor. The first place that we approached to get treatment, Sloan Kattering, charged her 500 dollars just for a visit. Maimonides hospital in Brooklyn charged her 500 dollars just for a stay in the ER.
So take your crap and stuff it. Come to New York City sometime and then tell me how wonderful the system is. I've had doctors and staff completely ignore me, not give me any information, refuse to do ANYTHING unless given orders from higher up, come by for only 1 minute to check up on their patients etc. So cry me a friggin river.

quote:
These people save your life better than anyone else in the world and people still complain about the price.

More crap. I've dealt with one doctor who thought it wasn't necessary to check my grandmother's PT/INR levels. (She's on cumadin). It got to the point where they were so high she had to be rushed to emergency and required a blood infusion... And the doctor who found this out wasn't American, he was from the UK. He called me at 5am to tell me the situation, you know, someone actually doing their god damn job... what a concept.

The reason you have to import doctors from India is because they are better then the morons I see all the time, and they have a good work ethic, and don't whine that they are getting paid too little. They also tend to me more well rounded... and won't pull the "oh, you have a problem in the neighboring area... well that's not my specialty, so talk to so and so".

I don't know what magic clinic you work at, but the doctors here refuse to give you their phone number, seem to work 11-4, and are experts at delegating things to someone else. I can count the good doctors I've met with the fingers of one hand.


By maven81 on 8/6/2008 6:36:42 PM , Rating: 2
Well well... I see we have a lot of cowards rating people down for just telling their experiences. I hope you go through everything I'm having to go through.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Hive on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 12:01:52 PM , Rating: 2
Im not sure if you are directing your statement at me Hive. I have quite a few qualms with the US interventionist foreign policy. We can't afford it, it makes everyone dislike us, and is destroying our economy as well. It's also unconstitutional and was warned against by the Founding Fathers of this nation. Socialism was warned against as well.

Socialism breeds more have nots than it does haves and therefore is a self defeating utopian idea that has been thoroughly debunked by quite a few learned men such as Von Mises, Hayek, Rothbard etc.

I don't want war or socialism. You CAN be of that political persuasion....no matter what the talking heads on TV might try to convince you of otherwise.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Hive on 8/4/2008 12:20:35 PM , Rating: 1
No, I was directing my statement at FITcamaro, who has a repeatedly shown his support at the war-waging in Iraq and elsewhere while at the same time displaying a complete phobia at taxes being used on healthcare or anything that might be construed as socialst.

I'm afraid I am not really convinced by all of the libertarian and anarcho-capitalist arguments, but at least my views are not as diametrically opposed to libertarianism as to neo-conservativism.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 12:17:40 PM , Rating: 3
Because at least some good will come of that "pointless" war. The Iraqi people will have the chance to live for themselves and make choice in their lives.

And the only human beings we AIM to kill are those trying to kill us. I have nothing but sorrow for the US soldiers lost and innocent Iraqi's we've ACCIDENTALLY harmed or killed. The innocent's killed in bombings and shootings by insurgents I feel for as well but I do not view those deaths as the responsibility of US government.


By maven81 on 8/4/2008 12:45:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because at least some good will come of that "pointless" war. The Iraqi people will have the chance to live for themselves and make choice in their lives.


You're kidding me... they can't even walk to the local market now without fear of getting blown up, and we gave them the chance to live for themselves? Nor did they ask for our help. For all you know maybe they never wanted your version of what their life should be like. Who are you to say that we have the best solution for them? Spoken like a true imperialist...

quote:
I have nothing but sorrow for the US soldiers lost and innocent Iraqi's we've ACCIDENTALLY harmed or killed.


You better tell it was just an accident to their families. Because I know that if say a US embassy somewhere was accidentally blown up during some anti terrorism operation, there wouldn't be a swift and lethal response.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Hive on 8/4/2008 1:24:00 PM , Rating: 1
I'm sorry, but any good to the Iraqis that *may* come from it (your use of future tense betrays an admittance that so far it hasn't come) is totally overweighed by all the bad that has already happened, still happens and looks set to continue to happen.

It's pretty clear by now that the military threat Iraq posed to the US was minimal, if any. Thus, the only lofty justification for the war so far seems to be one of responsibility and altruism towards the Iraqis. Why would your country be interested in spending billions and billions of dollars on such a clearly inefficient endeavour while there are so many pressing matters within your own borders? And how is this questionable "freedom" for ungrateful Iraqis a more worthy investment of your tax dollars than helping a fellow American pay his healthcare?

While I agree that the armed forces probably do not deliberately target innocent civilians, they often have shown little more than complete disregard for collateral damage. How many innocent lives are worth one a terrorist? Apparently several, as several bombings appear to suggest.

Again, all this is fine to you and worthy of support, but OMG, spending money for SOMEBODY ELSE's healthcare is SOOO outrageous, huh?


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By frobizzle on 8/4/2008 11:24:16 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah...much better spending hundreds of trillions of dollars on a pointless war against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, that had nothing to do with terrorism, that had no WMDs. Yup, much better than taking care of our citizens!


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 12:07:35 PM , Rating: 3
The war was to protect dollar hegemony. It had nothing to do with terrorists or 9/11 in any way whatsoever.

Here, take a look at this article....

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/12125

Saddam quit selling oil in dollars and began selling it in Euro's. Three years later we invaded him. But remember, it was the Clinton administration that pushed for regime change. Bush just followed through on it. Also, the cost of this war is expected to be 3 trillion....there aren't hundreds of trillions of dollars in the entire world, much less in the US's pocketbook.

However....that just goes to show that the US cannot AFFORD socialism. We are a socialist country and it has bankrupted us. If you haven't heard of David Walker or seen the trailer for IOUSA then please, give google a search. The unfunded socialist liabilities for the US are upwards of 90 trillion dollars over the next 2 decades. That is more money than there is in the entire world. Socialism doesn't work long term man.


By maven81 on 8/4/2008 12:51:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Socialism doesn't work long term man.


I haven't actually seen real socialism implemented by any government. If we take the dumbed down but fair definition of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds" then what you're really talking about is communism.


By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 12:28:48 PM , Rating: 1
Hundreds of trillions huh? Well if that were true we'd be in debt hundreds of trillions. The debt is high. Not that high.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/4/2008 10:58:24 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
It's the job of the president to protect this country numb nuts. So whether Obama or McCain is president, its still their job to do it. Just which do you think will do it better?

Um that would be the guy that wants to move troops to Afghanistan and start looking for Bin Laden in Pakistan, not the guy that wants to stay in Iraq well... just because!

quote:
Way to believe the liberal media that McCain is a war monger though.

Uh right... it wasn't McCain that joked about "bomb bomb bomb Iran" it was the media... Which is the only thing keeping him afloat by the way... This moron talks about "president Putin of Germany", "Czechoslovakia", thinks Iraq shares a border with Pakistan and the media gives him a free ride... because you can't make it look like a race if you point out the republican is dumb.

quote:
McCain is far from perfect but at least he supports getting us off foreign oil in a way that doesn't kill the economy

Oh really? There's more to the economy then gas prices... What's his plan for foreclosures? Where is his aid to the middle class? Where are the tax cuts to those making less then 100k? Where is the aid to the college students? He has no plan for the economy, sorry.

quote:
You're right though. Obama is nothing but a socialist. One that will make the debt soar to all new heights with his proposed programs that will have no way to be paid for even with his tax increases.

Tax increases on those making over 6 digits, which I don't know about you, but I don't fall into that group, so good job skipping that part. God forbid we should pay less for health care... Oh my god, it's socialism, run people run!


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 11:13:52 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Um that would be the guy that wants to move troops to Afghanistan and start looking for Bin Laden in Pakistan, not the guy that wants to stay in Iraq well... just because!


And McCain supports sending more troops to Afghanistan. But leaving Iraq will result in genocide and a complete loss of all that has been gained. The troop surge worked. The people are starting to support the government. We are not there "just because". We're there helping keep the new security that has been attained.

quote:
This moron talks about "president Putin of Germany", "Czechoslovakia", thinks Iraq shares a border with Pakistan and the media gives him a free ride... because you can't make it look like a race if you point out the republican is dumb.


Haven't heard a single thing about this. And how bout Obama's comments they haven't called him on? Such as his racist comments in Germany like "I know I don't look like other candidates who've come here". But he doesn't want to make this election about race right?...

quote:
What's his plan for foreclosures?


It's not the government's job to bail people out of their stupid decisions. You buy a house you can't afford, you should lose it. I shouldn't have to help you pay for it as I now have to do. Yes the loan companies offered some shady loans, but the fact of the matter is that you read the contract (or were supposed to) and signed it. Therefore, you're liable.

quote:
Tax increases on those making over 6 digits, which I don't know about you, but I don't fall into that group, so good job skipping that part.


If you think Obama is only raising taxes on those who make over 6 figures, think again. He wants to drastically raise the capitol gains tax on investments. Last I checked there's plenty of people who don't make $100,000 a year who have investments.

And besides, why do those who make more than $100,000 a year need to pay more? They currently pay over 1/3 their income to taxes. And the majority of that goes to social programs that they don't and will never use. So why should they have to pay more?


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 11:36:31 AM , Rating: 2
They shouldn't. Yet McCain voted to give your tax paying dollars away so that illegal immigrants could get social security. How can you justify your apparent fondness for this piece of collectivist garbage???

As for the housing issue....I think Ron Paul drops some education bombs yet again.....

http://thenewamerican.com/node/8342


By maven81 on 8/4/2008 11:48:55 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And McCain supports sending more troops to Afghanistan.

Hah, he merely paid lip service to that idea, and that was AFTER Obama suggested it, because frankly you can't have it both ways... for there to be more troops in Afghanistan they have to come from Iraq. Only way around that would be a draft.

quote:
But leaving Iraq will result in genocide and a complete loss of all that has been gained. The troop surge worked.

So are you saying that you know what's better for them more then they themselves do? Because clearly they don't think so... Or did you miss how the Iraqi government itself said that it wants us out by 2010? And what exactly has been gained? The region is destabilized, there's civil war that's not going to stop any time soon. Hundreds of thousands have already been killed, and a country that used to be secular is now infiltrated by religious fundamentalists. The surge did not work, no matter how many times McCain wants to repeat it... it had clear political objectives that it did not fulfill. Sure the violence went down, but in terms of the goals that were set it's a failure.

quote:
Haven't heard a single thing about this. And how bout Obama's comments they haven't called him on?

The McCain gaffes are on youtube, so you can't stick your head in the sand and pretend they never happened. As for Obama none that I can think of... in fact they've manufactured "quotes" that he never said, and hit him on them, only to had to admit that actually... he never said such a thing!

quote:
Such as his racist comments in Germany like "I know I don't look like other candidates who've come here". But he doesn't want to make this election about race right?...

So it was Obama that released an ad saying he wouldn't look right on a dollar bill eh? Try again.

quote:
It's not the government's job to bail people out of their stupid decisions. You buy a house you can't afford, you should lose it.

On this we absolutely agree, but I'm talking about banks here, not people. If my bank has to fold because of this, I will suffer even though I don't have a mortgage.

quote:
If you think Obama is only raising taxes on those who make over 6 figures, think again. He wants to drastically raise the capitol gains tax on investments. Last I checked there's plenty of people who don't make $100,000 a year who have investments.
And besides, why do those who make more than $100,000 a year need to pay more?


If you don't have a lot of money you probably shouldn't be making risky investments to begin with. And I'd much rather pay that tax, then have us borrow money from China. The people who make that much money should pay more because they can afford it. They aren't the ones driving the economy either... the people who need tax relief the most are those in the 30-75k range.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By rcc on 8/4/2008 4:52:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Tax increases on those making over 6 digits, which I don't know about you, but I don't fall into that group, so good job skipping that part


So everything is fine as long as it doesn't come out of your pocket?

Puhlease....


By jhb116 on 8/4/2008 10:53:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Tax increases on those making over 6 digits, which I don't know about you, but I don't fall into that group, so good job skipping that part. God forbid we should pay less for health care... Oh my god, it's socialism, run people run!

So why is it the the left wing sees a problem and says "lets get the gov't to fix it and we'll tax the crap out of rich people to pay for it."? I'd like to see just one of you the day you hit the lottery and the Fed walks in to take its 50ish% cut right away before you've paid any other taxes. We'll see you your tune changes just a bit about "just tax the rich people" mentality.

Just an FYI - Universal health care won't fix the problems with our (US) health care system - it just takes a boat load of taxpayer money and throws it at the problem. Here's an idea - its new and never been tried before: How about getting a multitude of experts together - take a look at what the real problems and then have a public dialogue on possible solutions (including Universal HC). hmmmm

Even if you get your Universal HC system - sooner or later you are going to have to face the REAL problems with the health system and fix them.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By HinderedHindsight on 8/4/2008 11:35:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
One that will make the debt soar to all new heights with his proposed programs that will have no way to be paid for even with his tax increases. We're already in deep shit for the entitlement programs we're on the hook for now. And he just wants to expand and expand them and add all new ones.


Wow, are you misinformed. First of all, I would stop believing every negative email that arrived in my inbox about Obama:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/would_obama_...

At worst, he wants to let some tax cuts under Bush expire. In fact Obama and McCain support many of the same tax positions as pointed out in the above link. The difference is that Obama has more ambitious plans for social programs that MAY require increases in taxes, but he's not proposing them now.

Also, remember, that as far as tax laws, Congress creates those, not the President.

Plus, as far as debt is concerned, you can blame the current Administration for all the debt we've incurred. I'd rather have debt caused by increasing socal programs here at home than wasting them on bombing other countries for no real reason.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By JustTom on 8/4/2008 12:46:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, remember, that as far as tax laws, Congress creates those, not the President.

quote:
Plus, as far as debt is concerned, you can blame the current Administration for all the debt we've incurred.


Which is it? Does Congress create taxes or the President?


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Donkeyshins on 8/4/2008 5:05:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

by JustTom on August 4, 2008 at 12:46 PM

quote:
Also, remember, that as far as tax laws, Congress creates those, not the President.

quote:
Plus, as far as debt is concerned, you can blame the current Administration for all the debt we've incurred.

Which is it? Does Congress create taxes or the President?


Congress creates taxes (although the President needs to sign said tax bills unless there is a veto-proof majority in both houses of Congress). Taxes are money coming in to the government coffers.

Not taxing and then spending a lot of money on a war for oil creates debt. Debt is money going out that isn't backed by taxes / savings. President George W. Bush (and his administration) is the one who unofficially declared war on Iraq, not Congress. The war in Iraq is primarily what (in addition to the inane 'stimulus refund package' and various other ill-advised spending plans), has made the US Federal Government a debt-driven organization rather than a surplus-driven organization as it was in the 1990s.

It's good to see that public education has served you well.


By JustTom on 8/5/2008 1:01:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
President George W. Bush (and his administration) is the one who unofficially declared war on Iraq, not Congress.


Of course this is factually incorrect. Congress authorized the President to use force against Iraq. And Congress has had the power to defund the war anytime it wishes to.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20...

I am aware of how the Constitution is supposed to work. All bills pertaining to revenue originate in the House of Representatives (not Congress as a whole). In fact ALL laws originate in Congress.

quote:
has made the US Federal Government a debt-driven organization rather than a surplus-driven organization as it was in the 1990s.


There was not a single year during the Clinton administration where the national debts decreased. The so called surpluses were in fact driven by massive transfers of money from Social Security taxes into the general fund. If you feel ambitious go to the Treasury Department's public debt website and you can see for yourself.

Finally, you missed my point. On one hand the post I was replying to blames the current debt completely on the Bush administration then on the other hand he mentions Congress has the power to impose taxes. While much blame can and should be placed on the current Administration Congress itself is hardly blameless. The simple fact is Congress has, and has always had, the power to balance the federal budget. It has refused to do so. Running deficits is politically expedient for all involved, not just the current sitting President. Note- I am not removing blame from this President, or any President, for signing those tax and spending bill presented to him. But the fact is the bills originate in Congress, and by definition have Congressional approval otherwise they could not be signed and made into law by the President.

quote:
It's good to see that public education has served you well.

Well, perhaps you should go back to school.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Pneumothorax on 8/4/2008 9:00:28 AM , Rating: 2
We have no choice in politics. The problem is the "Socialist" candidate also supports wiretapping and immunity for Telcos!


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 11:21:57 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. Obama is a total farce. He didn't vote for the war because he wasn't in office... yet a buddy of mine from high school had his legs blown off and another family member is currently serving his 2nd tour in Iraq because Obama voted to keep funding the war.

He voted for the patriot act which has been used to take down political rivals like Eliot Spitzer...even though it was supposed to be for the bad terrorists guys.

He voted for FISA, basically legalizing bush's illegal activity and if he becomes president, will insure that he doesn't get in trouble either.

Obama says he will expand the military and that he will go search for bin laden in pakistan even if the government there is not ok with US troops on their soil.

Obama, is the anti-war, anti-lobbyist candidate.....the one that stood before AIPAC with very harsh rhetoric aimed squarely at Iran.

AIPAC is a pro-zionist lobbying group that wields enormous amounts of influence on OUR political system as evidenced by Nancy Pelosi canning legislation that would have prevented Bush from being allowed to unilaterally attack Iran without approval from congress at the behest of AIPAC. I'm of the firm, constitutional opinion that NO foreign government's lobbyist groups should have any sway whatsoever over our foreign policy.

So much for being anti-war/anti-lobbyist.

Obama is a media created sensation on par with an American Idol.

Everyone Ive met that wants to vote for that guy is against free markets and wants the government to do everything for them....even though ALL the evidence points to the government expanding equals out to more and more ripping off of the public via government subsidized monopolies via regulation/legislation.

Just follow the money folks. Look at the huge banks and pharmaceutical companies that have donated directly or via bundling to Obama's campaign. Socialism is NOT the answer. It has been thoroughly debunked almost a century ago.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Mises/msSContents.h...

I think it is too late for America honestly. The people here are too dumbed down to understand even basic economic principles or even where their unalienable rights come from....it's NOT from the government in case you were wondering.

Obama....McCain.......We're Screwed '08 is more like it.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By HinderedHindsight on 8/4/2008 11:52:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
yet a buddy of mine from high school had his legs blown off and another family member is currently serving his 2nd tour in Iraq because Obama voted to keep funding the war.


I'm not happy about that either, but he has to vote for more funding for two reasons 1) it will make him look unpatriotic if he doesn't support the troops and 2) that money not only goes to supporting the war, but providing the troops with more resources with which to defend themselves and hopefully end the war more quickly. If you completely take funding away, you hurt the position they're already stuck in, not help it.

quote:
He voted for the patriot act which has been used to take down political rivals like Eliot Spitzer...even though it was supposed to be for the bad terrorists guys.

He voted for FISA, basically legalizing bush's illegal activity and if he becomes president, will insure that he doesn't get in trouble either.


Yeah, I'm a bit pissed about that too.

quote:
the one that stood before AIPAC with very harsh rhetoric aimed squarely at Iran.


Harsh rhetoric against Iran doesn't mean anything war related. Hell, everyone has something bad to say about Iran these days, even the Persians.

But I'm not a fan of AIPAC nor the fact that he's giving them any attention whatsoever- but he needs to in order to win the election. It's not an excuse, just a reason.

quote:
even though ALL the evidence points to the government expanding equals out to more and more ripping off of the public via government subsidized monopolies via regulation/legislation.


While I don't like the idea of government over-regulation, the hands off approach of the last 8 years has sent our financial markets in a downward spiral. Over regulation is definitely not the answer either, but I think we do need STRONGER regulation to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. As it is, the government has not ripped off the people, but bad business practices have.

quote:
Socialism is NOT the answer.


There is no way Obama on his own can take the country to a completely socialist state. And stronger social regulation could have saved the housing and financial industries.

Obama would be under too much scrutiny to be able to take this country down a completely socialist path. Some socialist ideas can work in a democratic/capitalist environment.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Reclaimer77 on 8/4/2008 7:39:12 PM , Rating: 3
I'm sorry about your friend but as much as I hate Obama down to my core, blaming your friends amputation on any one person just isn't being rational.

Your feelings for your brother and your friend are just making you spout a bunch of completely emotionally based bitter sounding garbage. Do yourself a favor and take a break from the Internet and get some perspective.

quote:
The US is being run by corporations


The US has always been ran by corperations because the corporations of this country are, quite literally, owned by the PEOPLE.

Thats what you libs don't understand. Your not punishing or " taxing the rich " when you play your class envy games. Your just punishing the American people and, in turn, the entire nation.

quote:
Obama will bring no change.


Oh but he will. He will change this nation into a third world mediocre cesspool if he has his way.


By NeoConned08 on 8/5/2008 10:22:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm sorry about your friend but as much as I hate Obama down to my core, blaming your friends amputation on any one person just isn't being rational.

uhhhhh because Obama voted to fund the war he played a role in my buddies limb loss. However minor it may be, he still has some responsibility. Not all of it obviously...but to try and negate his role in the matter completely isn't very rational imo.

quote:
The US has always been ran by corperations because the corporations of this country are, quite literally, owned by the PEOPLE.

Thats what you libs don't understand. Your not punishing or " taxing the rich " when you play your class envy games. Your just punishing the American people and, in turn, the entire nation.

You should read up a bit on your history. What we have now is NOT the same thing we had for the first half of this nations existence insofar as corporations running the government. What we have now is a form of soft fascism.

Lastly....I'm not sure why you think someone who voted for Ron Paul would be classified as a liberal......we are the only true conservatives left out here. If we could cut the government spending down to just that of 10 years ago there would be no need for an income tax at all!! I don't want to "tax the rich"....they are the ones that provide jobs for all the rest. Oh, and yes, you are correct....obama will bring change....but it's going to be horrendous.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By rcc on 8/4/2008 5:01:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Harsh rhetoric against Iran doesn't mean anything war related. Hell, everyone has something bad to say about Iran these days, even the Persians.


You are aware that the Iranians are Persians, right?


By JustTom on 8/5/2008 1:13:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are aware that the Iranians are Persians, right?


Actually, just over 50% or Iranians are Persians. And an awful lot of Persians are not Iranians anymore (spend an afternoon in Great Neck, NY and you'll see Persians everytime you turn around).


By mattclary on 8/4/2008 12:23:53 PM , Rating: 2
If I thought that Obama wouldn't go right along with this for a minute, I would agree with you. Both sides of the aisle are all about taking away our rights now, there is little to no difference any more. Ever see that episode of "The Simpsons" where the aliens weree impersonating Dole and Clinton? They were saying the exact same thing as each other. It's more apt today than it was 12 years ago.


By omnicronx on 8/8/2008 1:45:21 PM , Rating: 2
I really doubt that even if this does get passed, that it will last longer than the first few cases. Whats going to happen when they find my entire NIN collection that I downloaded illegally but I happen to own a hardcopy every single album, I was just too lazy to rip them myself? This is perfectly legal for me to do in the States and in Canada.

Its just too hard to screen for this type of material with 100% certainty, unless we are talking about obvious stuff like downloaded movies that were obviously cam or telescene rips.. Personally I would not be too worried, Just like I am not worried that it is US law that Canadians need a passport to cross the border, yet almost 1 out of 2 canadians crossing the border do not have a passport, and have been allowed in with little more than a drivers license or birth certificate.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 6:26:09 AM , Rating: 2
So how exactly is McCain a fascist?


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 11:05:55 AM , Rating: 2
Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist political ideology and mass movement.

Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts:

Nationalism (America is number one biy0tches! Those evil, dirty arab islamofascists deserve every bit of bombs they've gotten from us.....nevermind the fact the US helped overthrow the iranian govt back in the 50's and put in the brutal Shah who was eventually tossed out on his arse....nevermind the fact that saddam hussein was put in power by the US and was given biological WMD's to use against iran.....which he turned around and used on his own people. Nevermind the fact that the head CIA guy of the Bin Laden unit, michael scheurer, stated that neither McCain nor Obama has ANY idea how to deal with the terrorists and that the only one that would lower the threat from them is Ron Paul.

Ya, invading a muslim country and occupying their land was a BRILLIANT maneuver. Definitely going to stem the tide of terrorism.................)

Corporatism (just look at all the lobbyists that are or were part of McCain's campaign....keating 5 anyone??)

Militarism (he has already stated there will be more wars if he's elected....go search youtube),

Authoritarianism: McCain stated that he would be ok with the military doing *surges* in crime ridden areas of our country...basically martial law)

Statism (McCain is a total statist. Ever increasing government size and ever diminishing personal liberties is no problem for him as evidenced by his voting record, again, you go research it...you're the one that doesn't know wtf is going on here.)

Dictatorship (he has no problems with the egregious unconstitutional misuse of executive orders and am quite sure he'd have no problem wielding them to his own benefit, just as bush has...and just as obama would do.)

Populism (this is where Obama is firmly planted and might take the country towards fascist socialism as well.)

Collectivism (Just look at his votes for giving your social security money away to illegal immigrants. Look at his votes on welfare. Look at his votes on almost all of the nanny state lunacy and you'll see McCain is a hardcore collectivist.)

Economic planning (He had no idea what the Presidential Working Group on Financial Markets was but he has no problem with it at all. He doesn't care that there is absolutely NO oversight of the Federal Reserve and is basically an economic moron that will do whatever he's told).

FitCamaro, you seem like a bright spark. I just don't really understand how you've fallen under the sway of the neocons. Just read the Project for a New American Century document Rebuilding America's Defenses and it's blatantly obvious that the folks in power want the US to maintain/expand global power and currency hegemony and will resort to aggressive, pre-emptive attacks on any nation that challenges that goal.

If you are ok with that goal, you are one of the root causes of the problems this nation and the globe faces. If we continue down the path we are on (both obama and mccain give every appearance that this will be the case) then the US empire will draw to a very horrendous and painful closure.

Instead of releasing the grips on an empire we can't afford we are quite possibly charging headlong into a global thermonuclear war.

It would be much better for America to just eat the humble pie that is its due for being such a poor steward as the World Reserve Currency holder and to draw down its empire....both militarily and socialist aspects of it, as we can afford neither.


By audiomaniaca on 8/4/2008 11:10:14 AM , Rating: 1
Bravo!!


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 1:02:42 PM , Rating: 2
I care about the US remaining a world super power both militarily and economically. Unfortunately we're excelling at only one.

Do I support attacking anyone and everyone? Of course not. No sane person does. We can't fight everyone.

Do I support attacking countries that support terrorism? Yes.

Would I love it if our troops could come home today with no bad outcome? Of course. But its not reality.

Do I support the federal reserve having the ability to print money at whim? No.

Do I support ever expanding government entitlement programs? No.

Do I support programs that aim to provide increased security to the American people? Yes to a degree. The actual topic of this article I do not support. Monitoring of the internet though with filters for potential threats I find ok because they are not sitting there listening to/reading anything and everything. The world where absolutely no monitoring is a good idea is gone.

Do I support massive free trade agreements that only export more work overseas? No.

Do I support taxing the rich so that the poor have a higher standard of living? No.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By maven81 on 8/4/2008 1:31:08 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Do I support attacking countries that support terrorism? Yes.


Uh you do realize that by Bush's definition that would include us right? Because we give money to Saudi Arabia which is clearly a regime that supports terrorism. We give money and even military aid to Pakistan which harbors terrorists. What was it that shrub said a few years back? That a regime that harbors terrorists is itself terrorist?

This whole "war on terror" is a load of crap. How do you win a war on a concept? it's worse then the war on drugs, or the war on poverty.
How do you define victory? Is it possible to kill every single terrorist in every country in the world?
And how do you define terrorism? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter... remember our taliban friends when they were fighting the Soviets? Even Saddam was our friend when he fought Iran.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 2:20:22 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly....this whole *post 9/11 world* that the neo con morons cling to is completely absurd. They have NO idea what the US has done over the last 6 decades and when you try to explain it they just cling to their stupid ideas even harder.

FitCamaro, just CAN the idea that us staying in Iraq is going to prevent future terrorist attacks. That is the logic of a 6 year old and you are much smarter than that.

The reason they are attacking us is NOT because we are rich and free. If that were they case you'd think they would have flown a plane into the Statue of Liberty, which they did not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgbOxDX6DE

Go watch this video and understand what our own CIA means when it mentions the word BLOWBACK. Our very own CIA is telling us it's because we are over there in their part of the world.

If you are going to continue to advocate an aggressive US empire you have a LONG way to travel still down Clue Ave my friend. We CANNOT afford 1 trillion dollars a year to put troops all around the globe. The Europeans/Japanese/Koreans....none of these nations are paying us to be there. It's costing us money and the troops then get that money and spend it in those economies and not ours.

Lastly, we do NOT have the Constitutional authority to have our troops abroad and it was warned against multiple times by our Founding Fathers. Trade with all, alliance with none. After the fall of the Soviet Union we no longer had an enemy, and thus no need to maintain the size of the military industrial complex. Do you honestly think those companies, which make up more than 55% of the Federal Budget with their products and services, were very happy that there was no bad guy for USA to battle against???

Let that fact, along with Goering's statement during the Nuremberg Trials sink in. It's easy to get the ppl to go along with war. Just create a bad guy and then paint anyone that speaks out against the whole sham as being unpatriotic. It works the same in any country.

We cannot force our way of life upon others at the end of a gun.
We must lead by example and thus far, all the US has shown is that it will protect it's status as world reserve currency holder with a totally psychotic and erratic foreign policy.

It has shown that it will arm and radicalize people like Osama bin Laden when it suits their interests but when those folks see us as invaders as they did the Communists they will fight back and we will call them terrorists instead of freedom fighters.

The rest of the world knows that we armed Saddam with WMD's and that he used them on his own people....that we keep the Royal House of Saud in power despite the fact they have some of the worst human rights violations on the planet, as well as being sponsors of terrorism (14 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were saudi and 58% of the insurgents in Iraq are Saudi.)

Until you can get it through your head what the US has done since the end of WW2 you aren't going to gain much traction in understanding the world around you. Unplug from Sean Hannity for a bit and come up for some fresh air.

We see eye to eye on quite a few things in regards to taxes, socialism and the like. However, you and I are diametrically opposed in terms of foreign policy.

Non-interventionism is NOT isolationism. By trying to be the police man of the world we have isolated ourselves more than ever and are now bankrupt. You should really listen to the former head of the Bin Laden Unit. He knows wtf he's talking about.


RE: Is anyone else growing tired???
By Reclaimer77 on 8/4/2008 7:46:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If that were they case you'd think they would have flown a plane into the Statue of Liberty, which they did not.


Poor target. At the most you would have 20-30 killed ( not including the plane itself), and since the statue is on an island, there would be no collateral damage to speak of.

quote:
The reason they are attacking us is NOT because we are rich and free.


I used to say this myself until I actually read the Koran. I suggest you do the same.

quote:
FitCamaro, just CAN the idea that us staying in Iraq is going to prevent future terrorist attacks.


It already has. You can't wage terrorism without terrorist. Have you seen the list of terrorist and high ranking AQ members captured or killed in Iraq ? And who killed over 2 thousand of our troops in Iraq ? Bakers and mailmen with machine guns ? I think not.


By NeoConned08 on 8/5/2008 10:10:50 AM , Rating: 2
OK Mr.O'Reilly, let me break this down for you as simply as possible so it sinks in.

quote:
Poor target. At the most you would have 20-30 killed ( not including the plane itself), and since the statue is on an island, there would be no collateral damage to speak of.

Poor target if all you were doing was trying kill as many civilians as possible.............OR.......great target if you were hitting symbols to send a message to the american people about wtf you are so pissed off about......which the terrorists stated was their purpose in hitting the targets they did.....or did you not get that memo???

quote:
The reason they are attacking us is NOT because we are rich and free.

I used to say this myself until I actually read the Koran. I suggest you do the same.

I have read it along with numerous other religious tomes. You still are busy being spoonfed this BS by Fox news about how they are attacking us because we are free and prosperous all the while ignoring the fact that the US has been doing some pretty uncool stuff in that part of the world for quite some time.

It's time you get your head out your rear and admit what the US has done. Until you can do that, you are not going to have any idea as to the real reasons why terrorists don't like us and will continue to pimp the laughable excuse for the attacks that you do. Nobody is buying that infantile logic man.

quote:
FitCamaro, just CAN the idea that us staying in Iraq is going to prevent future terrorist attacks.

It already has. You can't wage terrorism without terrorist. Have you seen the list of terrorist and high ranking AQ members captured or killed in Iraq ? And who killed over 2 thousand of our troops in Iraq ? Bakers and mailmen with machine guns ? I think not.

Ummmmm there were NO AQ members in Iraq before we got there.....all we did was destabilize the government and create a massive breeding ground for terrorists that wasn't there beforehand. There is NO way to win a guerrilla war there. The British couldn't defeat us when we went guerrilla on them, we couldn't defeat the vietnamese when they did it to us, and Iraq isn't any different.

Our presence there is going to be a thorn in their side that will drive them to kill even more of our troops and to follow us home.

If we would just leave those people alone and let them deal with their differences with Israel by themselves we would be much better off. We don't have the money or the Constitutional authority to be the police man of the world. It has wreaked havoc on our economy and decimated our reputation abroad to the point where we have terrorists flying planes into our buildings here....and what does the idiotic population here say????

It's because we are free!!!! Because we are the best!!! blah blah blah.....no....it's because you are self centered and stupid and refuse to admit what the US govt has been doing on the Arabian peninsula for the past 6 decades. We have been installing brutal, murderous dictators that kidnap, torture and murder men, women and their children by the tens of thousands all because those dictators promise to sell their petroleum in dollars.

If you refuse to accept that and 'fess up to that being the case then you are one of the people who are CAUSING the terrorists to come over here and attack us. YOU are putting my family in jeopardy. YOU are putting my nation in harm's way because of your willful ignorance as to why those people don't like us.

As for the whole war on terror.......as I stated before....the Soviet Union collapsed and the military industrial complex for the US stood to lose a LOT of money. There has to be an enemy to combat and to have one that is an apparition that will NEVER go away...what a GOOD idea!! It's akin to the War on Drugs or War on Poverty. It will be a never ending war so they will always be able to make money arming everyone to protect themselves from the spectre of terrorism.

In the meantime the rights of the people are slowly decimated and the flame of liberty is slowly choked out. All the things that made this country good and worth living in are rapidly being taken away in the name of protection.....and as a wise man once said....those that would give up a little liberty for a little safety deserve neither and lose both.


By djkrypplephite on 8/6/2008 6:01:44 PM , Rating: 2
Except they were Nazi aggressors and didn't get attacked by terrorists you tool.


Oh good!
By Bender 123 on 8/3/2008 8:54:44 PM , Rating: 5
Just what we needed in the fight against terrorists...I am sure our tax money is being placed in a great hands when we are enforcing the IP of big music and Blogger Bob of the TSA is trying to figure out what what a Mac Book Air is.

I cant wait to hear the first story of a poor soul trying to describe the Amazon Music Store's DRM free policies to a "Tech Savvy" borderguard...yikes.




RE: Oh good!
By GaryJohnson on 8/3/2008 9:27:57 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder what they would do if they encountered someone with multiple layers of passwords/encryption on their laptop.


RE: Oh good!
By Shawn5961 on 8/3/2008 9:49:10 PM , Rating: 2
"The contents of the laptops can then be shared with other agencies and/or private entities for language translation, data decryption or other reasons."

I'm guessing they send it somewhere to get it cracked or decrypted.


RE: Oh good!
By GaryJohnson on 8/3/2008 10:14:39 PM , Rating: 2
Right, but the way I understand ACTA, they wouldn't be able to seize unless they already found some infringing content.


RE: Oh good!
By BladeVenom on 8/4/2008 10:52:32 AM , Rating: 2
The article just says if they "suspect." So they will probably suspect all encrypted laptops and seize them.


RE: Oh good!
By wordsworm on 8/3/2008 11:04:45 PM , Rating: 5
128 bit encryption, provided there's no backdoor, could keep a super computer busy for quite some time. Perhaps everyone should consider using it. http://www.truecrypt.org/ offers free 256 bit encryption software. So, if everyone starts using 256 bit encryption technologies, then the government will be unable to stick its collective nose into any but the few that they decide to stick the resources to.


RE: Oh good!
By SlyNine on 8/4/2008 12:50:39 AM , Rating: 2
If every one did do this, the RIAA would be Fked. Sure they MIGHT and thats a big MIGHT be able to break in to one guys encrypted file, assuming they can even identify that encrypted file and get the the proper layer. But if everyone did this. Their would be no point. It would be a huge was of resorses for almost nothing.


RE: Oh good!
By wordsworm on 8/4/2008 8:24:53 AM , Rating: 2
Well, unfortunately, if only one person does it, then the government worker/hacker would probably say to itself, "These files must be worth something." What I'd like to see in an encryption technique is that it would create a bunch of .jpg or an .avi (or some such file) which appears to be one thing, whilst having the encrypted data locked into a particular sequence of pixels that aren't quite right, but contain the actual data. This would make it appear to most custom agents as if there's nothing to hide, while in reality your documents contain 'unAmerican' rhetoric which then makes you an FBI/CIA target, which then busts you when you're caught with an ounce of weed in your possession - or something like that. Anyways, fight the power.


RE: Oh good!
By frobizzle on 8/4/2008 9:58:14 AM , Rating: 2
Apparently, you are not all that familiar with Truecrypt. You can use a feature called deniable plausibility where the encrypted data looks like nothing more than random bits. You can also name the encrypted files with any extension you desire and if you call it a PDF or JPG or anything else, it would appear that way (unless someone tried to open it with the associated application.


RE: Oh good!
By wordsworm on 8/4/2008 11:23:59 AM , Rating: 2
You're right. I've never used it. I googled it to see if something was out there and how many bits it went to. Anyways, the better idea would be to have it actually *look* like something that it's not.

A good example is that in a few months I'll be returning to Indonesia where porn is highly illegal (compared to slightly illegal here). I'd love nothing more than for the files to look like pictures of dinosaurs, then decrypt them to look like the hot lezzes that they are. Or, as I mentioned earlier, some unAmerican writing that I might not want the gov't to be aware of, or some books that I might have on my computer (ie, The Anarchist's Cookbook), or worse yet, Das Kapital.

Anyways, the main thrust of this article is that border guards have been getting worse and worse. I hate them. Why should they be able to break the rules? I think it's about time that they had the same rules restricting them as do regular police.


RE: Oh good!
By KentState on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Oh good!
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 9:20:44 AM , Rating: 2
Not true. PGP.


RE: Oh good!
By frobizzle on 8/4/2008 10:00:20 AM , Rating: 2
Also Truecrypt. There was a case not too long ago where a guy's laptop was seized and while the government gestapo suspected he had kiddie porn on his laptop, they were unable to decrypt it.


RE: Oh good!
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 10:30:26 AM , Rating: 2
I won't go into details but trust me when I say, when they go after you for kiddie porn, there's a reason.


RE: Oh good!
By BladeVenom on 8/4/2008 10:49:56 AM , Rating: 2
Yea, they like looking at it.


RE: Oh good!
By wordsworm on 8/5/2008 8:22:12 AM , Rating: 2
I wish I hadn't commented. I'd have rated you up on that one. Heck, they probably thought he had it on his computer because they sold it to him. If, however, they'd had evidence that he'd had child porn on his computer, then surely they could've had a warrant issued out for the decryption key.


RE: Oh good!
By Nik00117 on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Oh good!
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 6:15:05 AM , Rating: 2
Locations in Europe have been bombed more in the past 30 years than the US.

And you must not have read the part of the article that said this is part of a GLOBAL crackdown.


RE: Oh good!
By BZDTemp on 8/4/08, Rating: 0
RE: Oh good!
By theapparition on 8/4/2008 7:48:41 AM , Rating: 2
Errr,
Did you miss the part about this being adopted by the G8, you know, the 8 largest econonmic powers in the world?


RE: Oh good!
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 8:22:48 AM , Rating: 2
He's an ignorant hater of America. Everything we do is wrong while everything the rest of the world does is to be applauded.

Besides, you're expecting him to actually READ the article. The fact that that information is in the first few sentences makes little difference.


RE: Oh good!
By BZDTemp on 8/4/2008 10:09:49 AM , Rating: 1
I'm neither ignorant nor an hater of America (or even specifiably the USA). I just think the people of the US needs to open their eyes of the world and stop trying to make the rules.

It makes no difference if we talk the US, G8, EU, NAFTA, OPEC or whatever the only thing that is even close to global would be the UN.

If we go back to the whole looking/copying/seizing data of people visiting the US then it just makes no sense. Like so many other means of control the thing you catch is not the real dangerous bad guys because they are not stupid. To put it real simple why should anyone brings plans of a bomb or something on a laptop when it can easily be transfered over the internet.


RE: Oh good!
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 10:34:41 AM , Rating: 5
The UN might be made up of many nations. But who provides the majority of the funding for and does nearly all the work of the UN? Oh right the US.

It's always OK when the UN decides its proper to send in US troops to get involved with another country. But when the US does it on their own, we're evil. Then when we do nothing but others decide we should, we're also evil.


RE: Oh good!
By KC7SWH on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: Oh good!
By JediJeb on 8/4/2008 3:26:46 PM , Rating: 2
Sometimes I do wonder what would happen in the rest of the world if the US did actually sever all ties with most outside countries. If we kept all of our money inside our own borders, threw out any company with foreign ownership, and made all US companies have no offices outside the country.

Would we and all the rest of the world collapse? Would we survive while others fail? Would the world fluorish while we die or vice versa? Or would everything even out and everyone be happy?

The EU and the unoffical AU seem to think one world government would solve all our problems, but when you look at how trying to pull so many different cultures together and all have only one shared culture worked out for the USSR, it doesn't look promising.


RE: Oh good!
By foolsgambit11 on 8/4/2008 4:54:25 PM , Rating: 2
I hate to point out one small flaw in that logic. For many countries, if they need US aid, it's probably because they have massive problems of their own. They just don't have the resources to provide material support in Iraq.

And that's not even considering that it's probably in the US's best interest to consider helping poor governments - poverty breeds terrorism.

The government ignores things like parking violations by visiting diplomats because it's just not worth degrading relations with other countries over it. Do you think the US could really sacrifice good relations with the majority of the world and maintain the quality of life its citizens now enjoy? Isolationism is just not seen as a viable model for US foreign policy these days, for a whole host of reasons.

Foreign policy decisions are not made in a vacuum. There are multiple conflicting interests at work. That's why we have a whole group of technocrats and diplomats called the State Department to weigh the relative merits of foreign policy.


RE: Oh good!
By BZDTemp on 8/4/2008 6:30:20 AM , Rating: 1
Chances are they brand the poor soul as being suspicious and take away the stuff plus his or hers freedom.


So....
By vhx on 8/3/2008 9:20:15 PM , Rating: 5
Have the courts never heard of the 4th amendment or innocent until proven guilty or what? Not only is this retarded, but it will change nothing. If those really had something to hide, they would just take out the hard drive and ship it via mail.

This is just another, in a long list, of pain in the ass invasions of privacy enacted by the government for the 'safety and security' of the American public.

Afterall, if you got nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. Right? Except of course possibly being wrongly accused due to someone who's name is on a watch list is similar to yours. Having your personal data looked at by people and shared with others without your consent. Also the fact you lose access (and possibly information needed for a business) of your laptop for as long as they deem fit. Who's to also say they don't confuse your hard drive with another persons? Do we have to mark down our HD serial numbers now just in case we don't get confused with Mr. Pedophile because an employ wrote down the wrong name or number?

Oh well, it doesn't matter anyways, people will continue bend over on this one as they have been for the past 8 years. God bless America.




RE: So....
By tehfire on 8/3/2008 9:50:52 PM , Rating: 2
I share your concern, yet there is precident in this in airport security, stadium security, et cetera. In these situations (such as getting on an airport or entering a stadium) authorities are allowed to search your person and belongings without suspecting you of anything; It is merely standard operating procedure. Checking one's electronics does seem invasive, but I'm trying to see how it is fundamentally different than authorities checking a person at an airport or stadium.


RE: So....
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 10:08:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, this is pretty scary.
In some cases, business consultants and financial analysts can have extremely valuable data on their laptops - with top notch security that it sounds like the govt. is more than willing to find their way around.

And the government doesn't exactly have a stellar record of accounting for the laptops they've got their hands on...:

"1,100 Laptops Missing From Commerce Dept."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

"Government Loses Private Citizen Records"
http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-an...


RE: So....
By fxyefx on 8/3/2008 10:10:05 PM , Rating: 1
oops sorry, my reply was intended for vhx's post


RE: So....
By vhx on 8/3/2008 10:56:02 PM , Rating: 5
The difference is time and privacy. Searching through your bag or just patting you down takes all of minutes. You have a 320GB+ drive that's full, you think that will less than an hour to scour through all your files and information? I couldn't even do that knowing where all my files are. Just imagine as a quick example, one folder with 100 PDF's on product specifications. They'd have to search them all to make sure you didn't sneak in a PDF of child porn or something.

Most likely they'll hold you from getting on the flight until it's finished or take your laptop and mail it back to you whenever they feel like it. (With 20,000 laptops going missing in airports each week, I wouldn't hold much hope in getting it back, much less in working order.)

As far as privacy is concerned, the difference is you expect privacy with things you downloaded in your own home to your personal property. Also there is a difference between a security check at a stadium (or airport) and checking if someone has the latest Britney Spears song or Lord of the Rings movie. Last I checked, the latter wasn't a national security issue.

Also how could they prove it was illegal at the time as opposed to a personal backup? They can't and is just another (in a long list of) government cave ins to big corporations. If this fell into any category it'd be 'unreasonable searches and seizures'. Since this passed for the international borders, I wouldn't be surprised to see this enacted for state border crossings either.

I just hope people as a whole finally wake up one day.... I don't have much hope in that though.


RE: So....
By Arribajuan on 8/3/2008 11:44:18 PM , Rating: 2
I also see this detrimental to business.

Just imagine Mr business man goes for a meeting or whatever and gets the laptop seized.

Now he arrives at the office without laptop or documents to work with...

Or loosing the meeting or connection because people were searching his 500GB drive.

This just makes a normal business trip very risky and inconvenient.

Just one of the annoyances people can expect, let alone the loss of personal data and hardware.


RE: So....
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 5:59:38 AM , Rating: 2
Its not like they manually search through your hard drive. They have tools that scan through it outside of Windows.

Not advocating anything. Just saying.


RE: So....
By mydogfarted on 8/4/2008 8:11:43 AM , Rating: 2
No, they manually search your drive. I've had my laptop searched TWICE already crossing the border between the U.S. and Canada.


RE: So....
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 8:21:00 AM , Rating: 2
Interesting...

I wonder why they'd manually do it.


RE: So....
By fic2 on 8/4/2008 11:10:24 AM , Rating: 3
How else are they going to find out what porn to add to their collection?

I feel safer already.


RE: So....
By Lifted on 8/4/2008 9:05:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most likely they'll hold you from getting on the flight until it's finished


This is about customs searching your laptop, which happens after you've already gotten off your flight.

Suppose you don't live in the US and you are just arriving for a business meeting and will only be in town for a few days. Now you can't rely upon having your laptop for your meeting and can't expect to even get it back since you will be leaving in a few days, and we all know the chances of the US gov shipping a laptop back to somebody in another country.


RE: So....
By Hive on 8/4/2008 11:14:44 AM , Rating: 2
Let's see some reasons why this sort of thing it's wrong...

1) The obvious one: Invasion of privacy. If there is no suspicion of wrongdoing, they have absolutely no business looking through my stuff, or worse yet, copying and sharing it around to third parties. It doesn't have to be illegal for someone to want to hide stuff. It can be financially valuable or simply personal. My girlfriend's nude pictures and sex videos are for our eyes only, period. I could also have writings or chat logs that I don't want random people reading for no good reason. I bet those hypocritical politicians also have plenty of perfectly legal (and probably quite a bit of ILlegal) but personal stuff they would like to keep away from other people's eyes, but they won't be getting searched, will they? I'm sorry, but if you have nothing to hide, you are either an exhibitionist or have a pretty boring life.

2) It might end up in theft/destruction of property: Apparently, not only can they look around and copy your stuff, but they can take the equipment away indefinitely. This is might be likely if you decide to encrypt your stuff and refuse to give them access (see above). Even if there absolutely nothing illegal in it, what are the chances that you'll be seeing your equipment back intact in a reasonable amount of time, if at all? Stories seem to suggest they aren't particularly good. Now explain to me why the government should be able to steal or destroy your stuff without any reason at all and with (apparently) no way of holding them responsible???

3) Ineffective if not utterly useless: The only dangerous crimes this is likely to stop would only come from the most inept people, that is, those who would probably botch their own terrorist attack themselves if left alone. There so many safe ways of getting digital data into a country that this is akin to trying to stop the Niagara Falls with an umbrella.

4) Counter-productive: Resources wasted from fruitlessly searching stuff. Lost productivity from delayed/lost devices. Annoying the hell out of people who don't want to get caught up in silliness and need to get around it (e.g. businesses with secret data). Encouraging real criminals to become more careful.

The incompetence of these people at achieving their stated objectives is absolutely staggering and heir disregard for ethical (and leg4l!) considerations is simply outrageous.


RE: So....
By rudolphna on 8/3/2008 11:33:35 PM , Rating: 5
im more scared of the fact that the border agents can sieze laptops, ipods and cell phones- with no cause, just because they want to. And "destroy" them, which in many cases will mean that the border agents gain a new laptop/ipod/insert electronic device here for FREE, legally. This is complete and total bullshit.


RE: So....
By Targon on 8/4/2008 12:09:41 AM , Rating: 2
Searching is one thing, but this law lets them just TAKE your property on this idea that you may have pirated music or something? How about music on an MP3 player, do they assume that every single music track you put on there is an illegal copy, so gives them the right to confiscate it?

This is the primary issue here, it isn't a check for things that might link you to terrorist activities, it is checking for stupid things like illegally downloaded music, and suddenly the possibility of illegal MP3 files gives them the right to confiscate your laptop?


RE: So....
By Ard on 8/4/2008 12:13:08 AM , Rating: 2
There is a limit to what goes on at an airport or stadium and it's amazingly tame compared to this asinine policy. Yes, the airport is allowed to "search" your belongings, but at no time do they physically go through them unless their is some suspicion raised, either through your own actions or whatever the x-ray may turn up. The TSA isn't confiscating your laptop, iPod, or other electronic device for no reason, nor are they detaining you.

Moreover, there is a much valid reason for security in an airport than there is for security at the border. You're about to board an airplane, something that has people completely isolated and something that has already been used for terrorist attacks. What's going to happen at the border that can't happen from within the country? And, for that matter, how does digital media and "counterfeiting" have anything to do with stopping terrorism or giving the government a valid reason to suspend the Fourth Amendment whenever they see fit?


RE: So....
By RDC on 8/4/2008 5:27:34 AM , Rating: 2
Let me just drop in on that one and ask:

Aren't those personal searches at airports and particularily stadiums meant to ensure people don't carry guns, weapons or other objects deemed as potentially dangerous for the other attendants? The point of these searches is protecting the lives and wellbeing of the other passengers/stadium goers and the flight/event associated staff.

Search for physical weapons or dangerous objects hidden within electronics is already carried out ruotinely with the X-ray machines.

These software searches are of a completely different nature as you tipically cannot hurt your fellow passenger with an .mp3, an .avi, or a pirated OS.


RE: So....
By chmilz on 8/4/2008 12:59:38 AM , Rating: 1
Simply, pure horseshit.


RE: So....
By abzillah on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
RE: So....
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 6:07:24 AM , Rating: 2
While I am typically of the "I have nothing to hide so go ahead" mentality, here I don't agree. This lends itself to all kinds of abuse by border patrol agents.

"Hey that's a slick looking new iPod you got there.....you'll have to hand that over so I can check it for music piracy......yup I think I found some so we'll be keeping that."

Even if there was some kind of appeal in place to get your stuff back I might agree with this more. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

About the only thing I say is that I wonder how much this will actually be used. It's one thing to have a law. It's another thing to enforce it. Just look at our pathetic past enforcement of our immigration policies. We've got states like Commifornia and New York who pretty much don't give a crap that the law is being broken.


RE: So....
By HinderedHindsight on 8/4/2008 11:20:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just look at our pathetic past enforcement of our immigration policies. We've got states like Commifornia and New York who pretty much don't give a crap that the law is being broken.


Considering that immigration is an issue that's governed nationally, you can blame the standing Executive branch (whose job it is to enforce). But even if we drilled it down to an enforcement issue (enforcement issues being the domain of the executive branch) with the local government, keep in mind that most cities in San Diego county have not only a heavily republican population, but also that law enforcement jobs are typically taken by more conservative members of society.

Plus, isn't the governor of California a Republican? Makes Cali seem a whole lot less communist when you think about how many enterprises are based there and what the makeup of the executive branch looks like.

But I wouldn't complain too much about immigrants crossing the border too much, once you realize they basically support support the produce industries and do all the menial jobs (sometimes for less than minimum wage) in the area. If you truly wanted to make a substantial reduction in immigration, you would increase enforcement on the business owners who are providing them with jobs as they would be less inclined to hire immigrant workers for less than minimum wage.

I really don't understand why that's not a popular solution.... <sarcasm>


Get used to it..
By Cerin218 on 8/3/2008 10:07:10 PM , Rating: 5
I don't understand when it was that I started losing the rights that made this country the best country to live in. Now all of a sudden I can have any device taken at any time with absolutely no legal recourse? I am now to be considered guilty first and then given no legal means to prove my innocence? All in the name of stopping pedophiles and terrorists and "security"? September 11th was many years ago and to my sadness I find that the terrorists plans were far deeper then simply blowing up planes and buildings. I find that their plan for terror was far more complex and deeply successful. We are now tapping phones without warrants on our own American people in the name of "security". I cannot go see my relatives off on vacation or stand there at the gate waiting to greet them when they return in the name of "security". Now my electronics can be taken for no reason in the name of "security".
The point behind terrorism is to create fear. In my opinion the terrorists won. Our rights as citizens are being slowly taken from us all in the name of "security". I would rather go back to the world where I was free and took my chances getting out of bed each day instead of this new "security". What's next? Your social security number tattooed in a barcode on the back of your neck so that you can prove that you are a legal citizen? We have a legal process for a reason. The government needs to prove I did something wrong thus the whole point of "innocent until proven guilty". Which also makes me wonder when Big Business began to replace the Executive and Judicial branches of our country. I was under the impression that there were three branches of government for a very good reason and that the checks and balances were there to stop the abuse of power by any one branch. That was how I was taught it worked. I was never taught that the replacement for the system as a whole is Big Business. Unfortunately it seems that those that have the means make the rules. Which is why the movie industry is able to operate with impunity and establish every law they want. I get 5 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for camming a movie. Taking a human life does not carry the same penalty as stealing a movie. You can KILL a human being and do less time then video taping a movie!! There seems to be acceptance of this concept. Does anyone manage to see the problem with this? Who's going to stop Big Business? The president? not if he wants campaign contributions to get elected or re-elected. In my opinion we have a great many extremists living in our very country that this new "security" doesn't bother to protect me from. Making ISP's disable Usenet because pedophiles use it? That is like destroying all the roads in America because drug runners transport drugs using them and no roads would stop them.

Whatever, the ACTA seems destined to pass, and in a world where rights mean nothing I can't stop but questions why. It is our Duty as Americans to question our government. The people who created this understood that. There will come a time when all of our rights are taken away and we are led as sheep. We MUST question and challenge our government when we see things tat are not right.

The version inscribed at the New England Holocaust Memorial in Boston, Massachusetts reads:

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Take small and work bigger, get used to it, Big Business is the new "security".




RE: Get used to it..
By FITCamaro on 8/4/2008 8:39:16 AM , Rating: 1
September 11 was not quite 7 years ago. This hardly qualifies as MANY years ago.

I agree that this measure is going too far. But something like not having access to an airport terminal (a rather inviting bomb target) is hardly a restriction of your freedoms. When something only affects you, you are not presumed guilty. When something potentially affects hundreds, if not thousands, of others, erring on the side of safety is the way to go.

And you can quote that often ill-used passage all you want. When people start disappearing in the middle of the night, it might apply.

And I'd be inclined to ask who you wanted to be president this time around. I wanted Ron Paul. Because he believes in restricting the government and stopping the loss of our sovereignty to the "almighty" UN.


RE: Get used to it..
By NeoConned08 on 8/4/2008 3:09:53 PM , Rating: 2
Hey FitCamaro,
Ron Paul's book A Foreign Policy of Freedom is a FANTASTIC read. To truly understand how intrinsically intertwined our foreign policy is with our domestic policy and vice versa I highly recommend it.


CRIMINALS!
By winterspan on 8/3/2008 11:14:34 PM , Rating: 2
You can now throw Chertof in with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Negroponte, Rove, Tenet, Hadley, Gonzalez, Bolton, McConnell, and others who need to be INDICTED FOR TREASON, CONSPIRACY, FRAUD, THWARTING THE CONSTITUTION, VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, WAR CRIMES, VIOLATION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES, ETC.

Whatever happens in the short-term, they *WILL* face justice eventually.




RE: CRIMINALS!
By Shortass on 8/4/2008 2:30:43 AM , Rating: 3
No, they probably won't. But I agree with your point; this is entirely anti-american and entirely anti- business. Not to mention they will likely be screening people who are under 30 years of age, so getting age discriminated is another awesome thing I get to look forward to when traveling to better countries than my own.


RE: CRIMINALS!
By FITCamaro on 8/4/08, Rating: 0
RE: CRIMINALS!
By frobizzle on 8/4/2008 10:31:09 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
What treason, conspiracy, fraud, violation of human rights, war crimes, and violation of civil liberties has that list of people committed in the government?

More innate ravings? I suggest you read the book "The Prosecution of George W. Bush For Murder" and you can read (with citations of eveidence) a small list of crimes Bush, et al is responsible for. I'm guessing that might be too much of an ssignment for you as neo-cons avoid hearing the truth (unless it agrees with their misguided view) the way a Satanist shys away from holy water.


RE: CRIMINALS!
By mmatis on 8/4/2008 5:27:11 PM , Rating: 2
??? You failed to mention Reno, Albright, Horiuchi, and all the other Demo maggots. I'm sure you just accidentally forgot that swill, right? I mean, you wouldn't be one of those left-wing Osama Suckers, would you? But this is just one more reason I curse the filthy pigs every day for what they've done to this country.


If we fight back they will call us terrorists
By jmunjr on 8/3/2008 11:27:40 PM , Rating: 4
I can see it now. Not long from now many of us will be pushed too far and our only option to get our freedom back will be through violence. Ironically, in fighting for our freedom we'll be labeled terrorists. Makes you wonder what we're really doing in the Middle East...




By audiomaniaca on 8/4/2008 10:56:47 AM , Rating: 2
Still wondering? wow...


By SiliconAddict on 8/4/2008 11:59:19 AM , Rating: 1
"Makes you wonder what we're really doing in the Middle East... "

Easy answer. Creating a new generation of terrorists. What? You think having armed troops on streetcorners, killing the family and parents of young children, desecrating the Koran, and generally being there is making us friends? I can guarantee you there are more new terrorists in the world now then there was when we went into Iraq. All because Shrub has NO idea how to govern a nation in the world theatre.


Our only hope..
By soloman02 on 8/3/2008 9:12:22 PM , Rating: 2
Is that once this is passed, some lawyer or rich CEO etc. has their laptop seized and takes this all the way to the supreme court.




RE: Our only hope..
By SectionEight on 8/3/2008 10:58:09 PM , Rating: 3
I agree, though it's a shame that it has to be a rich person who has to fight for our rights because it's too expensive for a poor person to defend their rights.

There's nothing in a computer file that is so dangerous we need to check all of the data on computers coming into the country. Viruses? Most AV software catches and all they could do is disrupt a few days of commerce. Critical systems like ATC and military networks are isolated. Plans for a nuclear weapon? Even detailed plans are no threat. That would take several people with the know-how to make, not to mention the pounds of an extremely rare and deadly substance to make. No sequence of 0s and 1s is so dangerous that we must be subjected to these violations of constitutional rights.


Scapegoat
By Some1ne on 8/3/2008 11:31:37 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
On the other side of the fence is the Department of Homeland Security which argues that the measures are necessary to protect against terrorism.


How exactly does the ability to confiscate an ipod or a cell phone on the suspicion that it contains pirated multimedia help fight terrorism? The thing is called the "Anti Counterfeiting Trade Agreement" for fuck's sake, so I don't see how anyone can be asserting that it has anything to do with anything other than trade and copyright protection. And while those may be important things, I don't think that's really the most effective way to prevent terrorism.

It's obscene how often "terrorism" is invoked as a scapegoat to justify laws that do little more than expand the authority of the government to walk all over the rights of its citizens. When will this crap end?




Another reason not to go to the US!
By probedb on 8/4/2008 5:51:00 AM , Rating: 3
So when are they going to be able to randomly imprison people they don't like the look of?




By Jiggs1337 on 8/4/2008 9:37:14 AM , Rating: 2
Gitmo?:)


Border searches
By croc on 8/4/2008 1:06:09 AM , Rating: 4
EFF's take on this:

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/05/protecting-yo...

A number of security organisations have been recommending for over a year now that business travellers to - from the US take 'clean' laptops then download what they need via VPN. Or to buy a cheap laptop in the US, and do the same, then destroy the laptop's HDD prior to leaving.

A number of international conventions have now located to non-US locations, and many non-US business people just refuse to go to the US.

Maybe the US should just close their borders...




One more reason not to visit the US
By BZDTemp on 8/4/2008 6:25:08 AM , Rating: 4
Here is how a US would trip could become ones worst nightmare and this is when coming from a country that is a close friend. A NATO partner loosing soldiers alongside the US in Iraq and Afghanistan and so on.

1. Three days before going to the US I'd have to register that I'm coming, state why and so on.
2. Upon arrival I'd have to give fingerprints and maybe see all my electronics be held for inspection. That's laptop, camera, phone, MP3 player, storage... talk about nice vacation start.
3. Or even worse since being a none US citizen the US laws allow for me to be taken in capture without seeing a judge, a lawyer and without anyone being told about it. Basically now you see me now you don't! One could even be tortured with blessing from the White House (as if imprisonment without trial and in secrecy is not torture all ready).

Sure one is not likely to be cast in a black hole without some good reason but mistakes happen. What if my name is similar to some bad guy or maybe I look kindda like one. Would that mean a bag over the head and a free plane trip to a country with a even more liberal view of human rights?

Or maybe just writing this blurb will put me on a list somewhere? After all there is Echelon and other programs tracking internet activity.

I think the next time I fly west it will be either to Canada or something south of the border. And I will make sure it's a direct flight so my feet does not touch the home of the free!

It's sad really - and so very stupid. All so that some politicians can look like they are doing something instead of just taking record long vacations.




RE: One more reason not to visit the US
By audiomaniaca on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
By Powerlines2000 on 8/9/2008 12:36:35 PM , Rating: 1
It's nice to round off the ever growing list of reasons not to visit the US.

Think it would be safer to go to Burma at least when they infringe your human rights it's done openly.


The Terrorist are attacking our Imagination
By Cunthor666 on 8/4/2008 7:23:35 AM , Rating: 2
Good thing I don't own an ipod. Or live in America. Or want to go to America.




RE: The Terrorist are attacking our Imagination
By CyberHawk on 8/4/08, Rating: -1
By audiomaniaca on 8/4/2008 11:14:34 AM , Rating: 1
Same here.

Btw, what's wrong about not having an ipod or wanting to go to Amerika? Wondering if the fascists are rating people down in this forum...


By LatinMessiah on 8/7/2008 4:40:49 PM , Rating: 2
Then stop logging on to American websites.


OK..lolz.
By epyon96 on 8/4/2008 11:17:47 AM , Rating: 4
Why not scan the digital data of the employees of RIAA first. Don't scan anyone else until they finish with their employees and employee's kids, relatives, etc.




Isn't the US Constitution the supreme law of USA?
By yanon on 8/4/2008 3:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
How can the US government infringes on US citizens' constitutional rights without an constitution amendment?

As each day passes, I see the US government becoming more and more like a facist dictatorship. It is just ironic that western media, such as CNN, like to condemn Communist/Socialist China for censorships and human right violations when the US government is doing the same things at a smaller scale.




By audiomaniaca on 8/4/2008 5:17:33 PM , Rating: 2
I would not say smaller scale.


God, it feels like Rome all over again.
By William Gaatjes on 8/4/2008 4:52:53 AM , Rating: 2
One can judge authorities by the way it rules it's sociëty.

America has been filled with fear. This is just insane.

Madness...

This is just utter rubbish.




By William Gaatjes on 8/4/2008 5:09:38 AM , Rating: 1
Using anything to make a profit.

It's a shame...

America is ruled by greedy businessmen.


I love not being american
By rp90 on 8/4/2008 10:02:32 AM , Rating: 1
HAHAHAHAHA. This must be a joke.




By bighairycamel on 8/4/2008 11:44:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The international agreement , to which details were being ironed out, would demand investment in large policing organizations to "bust" those who download and share music and movies.

The bill was well received at the G8 meeting, the meeting of the world's largest economic superpowers which takes place each July.


Moron


Wait, what?
By PKmjolnir on 8/4/2008 10:57:58 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
without any suspicion of wrongdoing seize travelers’ "device(s) capable of storing information in digital or analog form"


Like your genome? your brain? and every other part of your body they want?




Yeap....
By CyberHawk on 8/4/2008 3:50:15 AM , Rating: 2
The land of the free (what is left of it) & the home of the brave.




Twisted Words
By Motamid on 8/4/2008 11:00:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"Yet legislation locking in a particular standard for searches would have a dangerous, chilling effect as officers' often split-second assessments are second-guessed."


I think what he really means is "as officers' often split-second guesses would be reassessed"




heh
By Proxes on 8/4/2008 11:13:36 AM , Rating: 2
I feel sorry for the guy that has a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook in PDF on his laptop.




Yah "Destroy"
By SiliconAddict on 8/4/2008 11:34:55 AM , Rating: 2
Bullshit. They will take the wares and keep them. The TSA does the same shit.




So...
By Polynikes on 8/4/2008 2:12:39 PM , Rating: 2
That feeling I'm having must be the same one the Brits had when the first CCTV camera went up.

I'd quote Ben Franklin, but I'm sure everyone here has that one memorized. Long live America, land of the free.




Strange
By Shadow Conception on 8/7/2008 10:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
Terrorism seems to have become modern-day reality's Snowball of Animal Farm.




"Let's face it, we're not changing the world. We're building a product that helps people buy more crap - and watch porn." -- Seagate CEO Bill Watkins













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