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The Feds tell Microsoft they will be watching them

Despite the circus-like atmosphere punctuated with laugh-inducing testimony, United States v. Microsoft, which went to trial in 1998, remains one of the landmark federal court decisions of the 90's.  It paved the way for other government bodies worldwide, such as the European Union, to successfully pursue antitrust cases against Microsoft and other electronics giants like Intel.

Microsoft and the government reached a settlement in which Microsoft agreed to grant third-party developers access to its application-programming-interface and additionally give a court appointed panel of three people full access to it's systems, records, and source code for five years in order to ensure compliance.

The oversight was supposed to expire November 12, 2007, but the court was not entirely satisfied with Microsoft's progress, so it decided to meet again to evaluate a possible extension to oversight if Microsoft was found not to be fully complying.

The decision reached by the federal court, presided by ."

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Typical Microsoft.
By TerranMagistrate on 1/31/2008 12:58:21 PM , Rating: 2
Five years should be more than sufficient to release the requested information to third party developers.

Perhaps for the benefit of consumers and everyone in general Micrsoft should have gone the way of Standard Oil by now.




RE: Typical Microsoft.
By TomZ on 1/31/2008 1:10:56 PM , Rating: 4
I challenge you to tell me one company or open source project that has better documentation of its APIs, protocols, and file formats than Microsoft. Go ahead...

And not to mention the breadth of software that Microsoft offers...

I just laugh when anti-trust regulators and zealots like yourself try to hold Microsoft to some totally unrealistic level of documentation perfection where you want every bit of software fully documented inside and out, when the reality is that Microsoft is far and ahead of everyone else in that area already.

If I am a third-party trying to develop a highly integrated product that goes beyond the public APIs and other documentation that Microsoft provides, then I would plan to do it the old-fashioned way...by reverse engineering and doing "real work." The problem these days is that these companies want everything handed to them on a silver platter without having to invest in actual R&D - they want Microsoft to do their work for them.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By TerranMagistrate on 1/31/08, Rating: 0
RE: Typical Microsoft.
By FITCamaro on 1/31/2008 3:30:49 PM , Rating: 2
Software Market in general.

IBM

Microsoft's documentation of its APIs is outstanding. No maybe not at the extreme low level of the OS, but things like that shouldn't have to be made publicly available for free. Charging a license fee for that kind of info is standard practice in the software industry. But because Microsoft is so huge they should be treated differently? No.

And Microsoft isn't a super hero so knock of the Spiderman quotes.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By mars777 on 2/1/2008 5:21:00 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
But because Microsoft is so huge they should be treated differently? No.


Ehm, yes. Thats because anti trust laws exist.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By ElFenix on 2/1/2008 2:30:32 PM , Rating: 2
this is about providing documentation to the licensees. they've paid for the license. MS isn't providing them the documentation that they agreed to provide.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By Jack Ripoff on 1/31/2008 1:33:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I challenge you to tell me one company or open source project that has better documentation of its APIs, protocols, and file formats than Microsoft. Go ahead...

They don't have to. Most of them use standard APIs (POSIX, X11), protocols (NFS, FTP), file formats (TeX, SVG), etc.

There are lots of third-party POSIX implementations around (BSD, Cygwin, Linux), but only one struggling third-party Win32 implementation (Wine). There are thousands of FTP implementations, but only one struggling SMB/CIFS implementation (Samba). There are plenty of SVG implementations, but only a handful of WMF implementations (Batik). If Microsoft's stuff were as well documented as you say they are, things wouldn't be this way. Reality speaks for itself: the facts clearly aren't on your side.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By TomZ on 1/31/2008 1:47:59 PM , Rating: 1
On the other hand, there could also be fewer MS-compatible implementations because there is simply no market need for such products. For example, what is the practical value to investing R&D in a Win32-clone/compatibility layer like Wine when Windows is so readily available and so cheap?

And I would also point out to you that so-called "standard APIs" are rarely if ever a "true standard" in the sense that they are perfectly interoperable. In reality, most of the standards documentation sucks because they omit key details, with implementers having to reverse-engineer existing implementations. So how is this any different than with Microsoft? At least Microsoft has better documentation, compared with its peers.

I work with this kind of stuff all day long, so it's pretty easy for me to see beyond the politics and rhetoric. The reality is that coding against Microsoft systems is far easier than any other platform, period.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By eye smite on 1/31/08, Rating: 0
RE: Typical Microsoft.
By EntreHoras on 1/31/2008 3:49:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wish they would just break up Microsoft and force Gates to sell off divisions of it like they did with the Bell company on telephones all those decades ago.


Yeah... The New AT&T anyone? Bigger, Badder, Meaner.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By Ringold on 1/31/2008 4:02:45 PM , Rating: 3
That could make sense.. if Gates were running it. Which he isn't, nor has he been for a little while.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By eye smite on 1/31/08, Rating: 0
RE: Typical Microsoft.
By TomZ on 1/31/08, Rating: 0
RE: Typical Microsoft.
By matriarch wolf on 2/27/2008 3:12:29 PM , Rating: 2
It's obvious he does know what he's talking about.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By trisct on 2/1/2008 10:01:01 AM , Rating: 2
Coding to Microsoft is easier, if you are running under Microsoft OS and tools. This isn't because their API is well documented, its because the tools do a good job of hiding the fact that it isn't. The API documentation should be just as useful if you aren't running under Windows.

Most of Microsoft's API "documentation" is in the form of call headers, which is already in the .dll files, and is extracted by toolkits to put in helpful popups. Not that this is a bad thing, but it isn't a replacement for real API documentation, its more like dangling a toy to distract developers from the fact that the real documentation is missing - Oooh, look at the pretty shiny thing...

You can still get the job done, but it isn't made as straightforward as it ought to be from an OS vendor. They should be dying to tell you how their stuff works, not hiding it behind their skirts. The available docs seldom go into how things work, just provide some examples of how to call them. That's not enough, and is probably what the expert panel is objecting to. You can't treat an entire OS like a trade secret, thats monopolistic operation.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By TomZ on 2/1/2008 10:14:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most of Microsoft's API "documentation" is in the form of call headers, which is already in the .dll files, and is extracted by toolkits to put in helpful popups

Absolutely incorrect and/or outright lie. Microsoft has incredible documentation on their APIs which goes far beyond what you describe. Maybe you're not familiar with it, but you can browse it online for free:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/default.a...

Choose your topic and drill down. There's probably a million pages of documentation there.

In addition to the Microsoft platforms, I've also developed on a number of other platforms for many years, and nobody I'm aware of comes close to the quality and quantity of documentation that Microsoft provides.


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By Jack Ripoff on 2/1/2008 12:06:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Microsoft has incredible documentation on their APIs which goes far beyond what you describe.

I wonder why the Wine team is having such a hard time reverse-engineering all those APIs then...


RE: Typical Microsoft.
By TomZ