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2010 Toyota Camry

2010 Toyota Corolla

2010 Toyota Highlander
"Moving Forward"... and not stopping

Toyota has built up a reputation in American for reliability, safety, and overall quality. While many customers and auto reviewers have noticed a slip in interior quality of newer Toyota vehicles in recent years, the Japanese automaker has so much goodwill built up with the public that such findings have done little to tarnish the company's image.

However, the latest news coming from the Toyota camp threatens to take quite a bit of wind out of the automaker's sails. What was once thought just to be just a problem with improperly installed floor mats has turned into a much more complicated issue. Last week, Toyota issued a recall for 2.3 million vehicles to fix problems with the accelerator pedals.

Yesterday, however, Toyota took the drastic model to announced the suspension of sales for eight vehicle models in the U.S. -- effective February 1 -- including the best selling car in America: the Toyota Camry. "Toyota has investigated isolated reports of sticking accelerator pedal mechanisms in certain vehicles without the presence of floor mats," the company said in a press release. "There is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, in rare instances, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position."

The full list of affected vehicles includes:

2009-2010 RAV4,
2009-2010 Corolla,
2009-2010 Matrix,
2005-2010 Avalon,
2007-2010 Camry (excluding hybrid models)
2010 Highlander (excluding hybrid models)
2007-2010 Tundra,
2008-2010 Sequoia

"This unprecedented automotive decision indicates how serious a safety problem this is," Edmunds.com senior analyst Michelle Krebs told Reuters. "We've gone from floor mats to recalls for wear items to a full shutdown, and I can't help but think that the company's credibility is being called into question."

All affected models are either built in the U.S. or Canada. In addition, all affected models have accelerator pedals that come from a single supplier, CTS. Toyota is now working with CTS to fix the problem at hand so that the planned stoppage of vehicle sales doesn't go on for too long.

"In this highly competitive market, no automaker -- not even Toyota -- can afford to stop selling its cars and trucks for long, but perhaps Toyota is banking on the idea that customers will appreciate the priority of their safety in this decision," added Edmunds.com Senior Analyst Jessica Caldwell.

Updated 1/27/2010 @ 5:43pm EST
In a true showing of kicking a company while it's down, GM is now offering a $1,000 trade-in rebate (or free financing) to any customer that trades in a Toyota vehicle to purchase a new GM vehicle.



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Drive by wire?
By Lazarus Dark on 1/27/2010 8:31:08 AM , Rating: 3
Do they have drive by wire? My Dodge Challenger does, and I notice a half second lag on the throttle. I let off the pedal to shift gears and it continues to accelerate for half a second. I freakin hate it.




RE: Drive by wire?
By wannabemedontu on 1/27/2010 8:43:17 AM , Rating: 3
uhhh...it's a Dodge. lol


RE: Drive by wire?
By Shark Tek on 1/27/2010 8:46:43 AM , Rating: 3
In the case of the current Honda Civic Si it has the same behavior in the throttle too. But is not only the DBW related to the throttle lag there are other components like injectors, ignition timing, etc. At least in the case of the Civic I can confirm that Honda did it to reduce a bit more bad emissions.
It can be fixed with a custom reflash with a Cobb AccessPort or Hondata FlashPro.

In the case of the Challenger I bet is the same thing too. And there must be a way to reprogram the ECU to make it behave like a cable driven throttle.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/2010 9:38:28 AM , Rating: 2
Isn't that Rev Hang? Rev hangs after to take foot off pedal and push clutch in.
It holds up the throttle a little to help with the Rev matching.

What He said isn't the same thing he just taking his foot off the pedal,and he is accelerating.


RE: Drive by wire?
By DM0407 on 1/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: Drive by wire?
By Calin on 1/28/2010 3:55:04 AM , Rating: 2
Yes you need.
On low load, with the accelerator maybe 1/10 in, the engine will revv at some 1500 rpm. If you take the load (pressing the clutch while preparing to shift), the engine will accelerate up to some 2000+ rpm, and the difference will be eaten (will eat from) the clutch plates.


RE: Drive by wire?
By ZHENDHIDE4 on 1/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Drive by wire?
By littleprince on 1/27/2010 8:47:17 AM , Rating: 2
That's a little scary.
In an emergency stop that can make all the difference.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Hieyeck on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Drive by wire?
By Suntan on 1/27/2010 11:40:12 AM , Rating: 5
News flash, but the modern transmission is designed to keep running for more than 4 years even when you don’t shift into neutral…

Also, by shifting to neutral you are wasting gas. Today’s ECUs are programmed to shut off fuel delivery to the engine when the vehicle is coasting and the transmission is forcing the engine to turn. When you put the car into neutral, the engine keeps feeding the car fuel to keep the engine idling.

Lastly, just because the transmission has some small load on it, doesn’t mean you are actually causing wear to the components. Sorry, but putting it into neutral when coasting down hill is doing nothing useful.

Besides… all the trannies I’ve ever met have always been happier when they were put under a little strain…

-Suntan


RE: Drive by wire?
By Nfarce on 1/27/2010 11:48:17 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Sorry, but putting it into neutral when coasting down hill is doing nothing useful.


And actually all that disconnecting and connecting from N to D while coasting probably puts more wear and tear on the transmission than just leaving the thing alone - as it was designed for. Sounds to me like this dude should have bought a manual transmission if he likes coasting so much (keep in mind in a lot of states, including mine (GA), coasting in neutral is actually illegal - not sure how anyone can enforce that however.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Drive by wire?
By Runiteshark on 1/27/2010 7:55:27 PM , Rating: 4
Are you completely retarded? You seem to keep an eye on temps but do you even have an understanding of how an automatic transmission works? Heat does indeed kill them along with a few other things, like metal shavings etc.

The heat of your engine holds very little relation to the heat of your transmission. If you are pulling a load with your little RAV, I assure you its monumentally more strain on it then if you were say, slowing down from speed. You won't build up heat by stopping with engine braking.

Furthermore, if you maintain your transmission (ie fluid changes with proper fluid) and make sure everything drivetrain related is lubricated properly, you won't have any issues.

I know you think you are a super driver because you seem to have so much control over your little Toyota, but please, just coast in gear. Your engine idling will consume more gas then the super low fuel consumption of slowing down with your engine. I suggest you read up on how it works, as well as your transmission so you don't do totally idiotic things from now on.

Also are you the kind of person that thinks you need to park straight so your suspension doesn't have undue strain when you're parking?


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/2010 8:55:09 PM , Rating: 1
I took out the Transmission pan myself at 60k.
There was hardly any metal shavings.
Just a light coat on each of the three magnets.
Plus I changed out the filter as well.

As I said before it depends on the situation wither or not you'll consume more gas. I speak from someone who gets 35MPG over a tank on a good summer day.
Worst I've gotten was 28MPG after a horrible snow storm (2 feet).


RE: Drive by wire?
By Flunk on 1/27/2010 11:14:10 PM , Rating: 2
Those MPG ratings don't mean much if you don't tell us what you drive. If you're driving a Ford Festiva (and if you are I feel bad for you).


RE: Drive by wire?
By Runiteshark on 1/27/2010 11:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
He hypermiles a Toyota Rav 4.

Yes, a small SUV.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/2010 8:58:31 PM , Rating: 1
Actually the way my Car cools the tranny, is that it has a Heat exchanger to the Main Engine Coolant system. So the same coolant that cools the engine cools the Transmission at the same time.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Runiteshark on 1/27/2010 9:05:50 PM , Rating: 2
Install a sensor and a gauge if you care so much, and like I said elsewhere, put a tranny cooler on it.


RE: Drive by wire?
By uibo on 1/28/2010 3:48:46 AM , Rating: 2
If it is so then leaving the car in gear while coasting should produce less heat, since the engine is not using any fuel?


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Drive by wire?
By fcx56 on 1/27/2010 11:48:12 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly, I have always owned manual transmission cars, but a couple of my friends with automatics will do what you describe, even to the point of engaging the e-brake while in neutral before finally putting it into park. I'm surprised auto transmissions last as long as they do with the constant stress.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: Drive by wire?
By Runiteshark on 1/27/2010 7:58:13 PM , Rating: 2
If you are so concerned about heat (To the point you bullshit yourself) why don't you just install a tranny oil cooler?

Think of it, you can be a little douche on the road hypermiling, you'll have more oil capacity thanks to the oil in the lines, and cooler itself.

I'm sure you need it too, because you put just as much stress on your tranny as the people who race competitively and haul large loads.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/27/2010 9:07:32 PM , Rating: 1
LOL really I put as much as stress on the transmission as a Racer? Where you pull facts out of your ass?

All I am doing is Shifting in N and Drive.
The only thing my manual says on subject is I should not rev the engine while making gear changes. So from how I see it there is no problem going back and forth between N and D.

In fact the Gear Selector doesn't inhibit it,
Like it does for the other gears. When I mean inhibit it I mean I have to depress the button to get it to shift.

I should have mentioned it before Read your manual before you do anything.

Btw I do have a Tranny oil cooler ready to install, but not for my hypermiling, but because my Coolant temp of 190F is not good for the transmission. The Temp valve tries to maintain ~190F.

Plus its electrically controlled the computer handles the re-engagement like any other action. I am not putting more stress on the transmission than someone normally accelerating.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Runiteshark on 1/27/2010 11:26:48 PM , Rating: 2
LOL really I put as much as stress on the transmission as a Racer? Where you pull facts out of your ass?

Actually I was being sarcastic. You seem to think you put an incredible amount of stress on you tranny when you engine brake, so I interjecting actual strenuous activities.

Of course there is no problem going between N and D, its the fact that you do it to save a bit of gas mileage that is puzzling. Perhaps you rav4 does not cut the flow of gas to your engine significantly when you pull off the accelerator, I don't know, but I do know that you won't save by disengaging gears.

You are talking about your engine coolant. I will repeat this, this cools your engine, not your transmission. I don't care if you do have a heat exchanger between the tranny and engine, you do not know the temp of your tranny fluid. If it is indeed 190, then you'd have quite a few issues on you hands other then a slight coating of shavings when you took of the pan like you mentioned earlier. Most automatic trannies are very finned at the bottom to radiate heat as easily as possible.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Kurz on 1/28/2010 12:09:52 AM , Rating: 2
Quoted from above:

"Actually the way my Car cools the tranny, is that it has a Heat exchanger to the Main Engine Coolant system. So the same coolant that cools the engine cools the Transmission at the same time."

The Transmission oil is cooled by engine coolant flowing through a heat exchanger. So the Transmission and Engine are cooled using the Main Radiator.

http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9591&h...

Here is my proof >.>


RE: Drive by wire?
By theapparition on 1/27/2010 9:14:24 AM , Rating: 2
I have several cars with drive by wire, and none of them exhibit the behaviour you mention.

In fact, back when both cars were stock, I had a TransAm and Corvette. Both had the same engines (LS1), same transmissions (4L60E) and were similar cars. The TA has cable driven TB, while the vette was electronic. The vette had noticably better throttle response.

Both cars are nowhere near resembling stock anymore, so it's not a fair comparison. :P

Something is definately wrong, or it's pretty poor design.


RE: Drive by wire?
By Beenthere on 1/28/2010 2:13:30 AM , Rating: 1
The problem has nothing to do with drive by wire. The issue is a sticking accelerator pedal on a few cars.


RE: Drive by wire?
By MrPoletski on 1/28/2010 4:54:54 AM , Rating: 2
have you tried overclocking?


RE: Drive by wire?
By Byte on 1/28/2010 8:19:56 AM , Rating: 3
Try recalibrating the accelerator

1) Insert ignition key and turn to "ON" (not start).
2) Wait for all lights to go out. Check Engine Light may remain on.
3) Slowly depress the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor.
4) Slowly release the accelerator pedal until it's all the way back up.
5) Turn the ignition key to "OFF".
6) Start the engine.


RE: Drive by wire?
By AstroGuardian on 2/2/2010 4:43:55 AM , Rating: 2
No no, it's the same with my Chevrolet Spark and my Opel Astra GTC ;) I guess it has something to do with the ECU. In time i got used on letting the gas pedal first and then shift half a second later. It seems to be not that bad


Maybe not just the newer models
By room200 on 1/27/2010 11:22:36 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, I have a 2000 Toyota Avalon (which I don't drive in the winter), because here in Chicago it gets very cold. When it gets to be one of those ridiculously cold days, my accelerator will some times stick. I have to press it down really hard to get it to pop back up. I know it sounds stupid, but I never took it in or complained about the problem. I wonder how many more people there are like me who never reported previous problems.




RE: Maybe not just the newer models
By acase on 1/27/2010 12:59:53 PM , Rating: 3
Hmmm...counting the amount of dumb people in this country may take a while. I'll get back to you...


RE: Maybe not just the newer models
By room200 on 1/27/2010 3:50:36 PM , Rating: 1
You can count?


RE: Maybe not just the newer models
By DM0407 on 1/27/2010 6:23:57 PM , Rating: 5
If your throttle sticks to the point you need to depress it further for it to release then your a danger to all of us. Please fix that.


I guess I'm lucky
By bravacentauri83 on 1/27/2010 10:40:23 AM , Rating: 2
I have an 07 Camry with the original rubber floor mats. I checked this out once I heard about the recall. There's a good amount of gap between the floor mat and the pedal when not being used and if I stomp all the way down on it. I also played around a bit with the floor mat to see how much it could move around. Granted, it's only held on by two clips near the driver's seat, but they still cling to where they are supposed to be.

I'll still get this replaced since I have an oil change coming up, but thankfully I didn't have an issue with it. I do feel a bit disturbed that Toyota didn't do anything about this for so many models and for that number of consecutive years.




RE: I guess I'm lucky
By rudolphna on 1/27/2010 10:44:36 AM , Rating: 4
Don't even bother, the problem is not the floor mats. Toyota won't say it, but the problem is the electronically controlled throttle. That is the ONLY thing that would make them stop actual production of these cars, is if it was a serious inherent problem that requires fixing. It's not the floor mats.


Toyota still lying
By troysavary on 1/28/2010 3:20:09 AM , Rating: 3
The car that was involved in the case that killed the highway patrol officer and his family was a Lexus, which is not involved in this recall and does not use the so called faulty American made gas pedal. Given that the transmision is also drive by wire, having no linkage to the shift stick, and the fact that he apparently was unable to shift into neutral, it appears that Toyota's ECU is to blame here.




RE: Toyota still lying
By Einy0 on 1/28/2010 11:46:31 AM , Rating: 1
F#ck*ng Windows 98... lol...


The first freaking sentence
By Randomblame on 1/28/2010 4:06:31 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Toyota has built up a reputation in American for reliability, safety, and overall quality.


If there is an error like this in the first sentence how can you expect us to continue reading? Why would I read your article once if you can't read it once yourself to check it for errors?




By Ghost42 on 1/29/2010 3:11:26 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota had no choice but to halt sales. They can try and say their doing it out of concern for their customers all they want, however the Government was who laid down the law and said to halt the sales'

quote:
The new administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, David Strickland, said today Toyota's decision to halt sales "was an aggressive one and was the legally and morally correct thing to do.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told Chicago radio station WGN that the government asked Toyota to stop selling the vehicles.

LaHood said, "The reason Toyota decided to do the recall and to stop manufacturing was because we asked them to."

A Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said Tuesday the automaker expects to have a remedy in "weeks, not months." Officials said NHTSA first contacted Toyota Friday, after seeing news reports of Toyota's plans to continue selling defective vehicles.

It wasn't until around noon on Tuesday that Toyota informed safety regulators it would halt sales.

Under Chapter 301 of the Motor Safety Code, Toyota can't continue to sell the defective vehicles unless it has a remedy.

Strickland said in taking the action "Toyota was complying with the law."

"They consulted with the agency. We informed them of the obligations, and they complied," he said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100127/AUTO01/127...




I thought...
By Sharpie on 2/4/2010 10:43:36 AM , Rating: 2
Where not a lot of the reported problems and even the car that crashed out in Santee, California a Lexus? Why are there no Lexus recalls in this list or did I miss something?




By sepirocth on 1/27/2010 9:21:25 PM , Rating: 1
this is the result of letting americans in their plants, turns the factories into sweat shops and make toyota just like GM vehicles, crappier(as peter would say)




GM...?
By Qapa on 1/28/2010 10:16:20 AM , Rating: 1
How does this make any sense for GM to offer $1k for Toyota trade-ins?

No one is going to go for that, unless they already have an old Toyota that breaks up every 10 miles, or if they already wanted to make that trade.

So this is just a marketing thing.. and maybe getting a couple more sells from people that were divided between buying a new GM car or other brand...




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By sdfasdgdhasdf on 1/30/10, Rating: 0
Moved production to the U.S.
By vtohthree on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By vtohthree on 1/27/2010 8:29:52 AM , Rating: 2
on a more serious note, once you've reached the top(#1 on sales) it's easier to be more complacent and at ease.

Toyota has had a better track then our domestic brands, hope they step it up.


RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By wannabemedontu on 1/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By markitect on 1/27/2010 9:00:00 AM , Rating: 1
I'd also like to emphasize that the problem part is 100% North American. In fact I wonder what other manufacturers use the part.


By theapparition on 1/27/2010 9:06:55 AM , Rating: 3
You do realize that Toyota knew about these issues for over 2 years and tried to hide that fact.

Or how about the recent whistle-blower who alleges Toyota has known about roll overs and covered that up.

Keep the blinders on pal.


RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By Strk on 1/27/2010 10:01:00 AM , Rating: 3
That's such BS. Honda and Subaru don't seem to be having any of those issues.

You also still have plenty of Japanese-made cars coming over that still suck. People just seem to forget that there are more than two Japanese car companies.


RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By Nfarce on 1/27/2010 11:44:47 AM , Rating: 5
Exactly. Only a complete idiot would claim that. You can also include Kia, Hyundai, Nissan, BMW, and Mercedes being built here in America not having major issues like this either.

This is shoddy design, not shoddy workmanship. Workers install and connect the wiring harnesses, they don't design them.


RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By redbone75 on 1/27/2010 10:44:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
That's what happens when Toyota decides to move almost all production to the U.S. and rely on our workers to get the job done.

Be it things get lost in translation... or our renowned work ethic of just getting by and calling it a day.

You are a moron. Though the cars/parts might be made in America, Americans don't design the parts or cars.


RE: Moved production to the U.S.
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/27/2010 10:48:25 AM , Rating: 2
The Tundra is American designed and engineered specifically for the American market, as are the Sequoia and Avalon. Not sure about the Highlander though -- it was at least styled by CALTY in the U.S. I don't know if the engineering was done here as well though.


By TerranMagistrate on 1/28/2010 12:11:55 PM , Rating: 2
The design and engineering of the engines and transmissions in those Toyota vehicles are probably done in Japan. The exterior design is of U.S. origin.


It's about time
By R6Raven on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: It's about time
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 1/27/2010 8:01:42 AM , Rating: 5
It already has caused harm. There have been two high profile cases where unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles has killed people. It was after the first crash that Toyota started reacting.

Four people dead:

http://consumerist.com/2009/10/toyota-911-call-of-...

Two dead, two injured:

http://consumerist.com/2009/12/was-fatal-dallas-cr...


RE: It's about time
By omnicronx on 1/27/2010 8:23:31 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
http://consumerist.com/2009/10/toyota-911-call-of-...
Wow that sucks.. I just don't understand how he got up to 120MPH! I wonder if he even put on his e-brake.. I also don't understand how this even happens, why didnt the driver flip the car out of gear or was everything completely stuck?


RE: It's about time
By ZHENZHEN on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/27/2010 9:01:26 AM , Rating: 1
Even worse, he was a highway patrol officer??? You'd think that someone with that level of experience would know what to do.

Some thoughts, just complete speculation on my part.

Automatic transmissions are computer controlled, not by direct linkage anymore. If you're traveling at 60mph, and slap the shifter into park, nothing happens or the car stalls. It does not go into park unless the computer allows it to. Similarly neutral may be locked out if the computer decides that it can't perform that operation. If the ECU is compromised, all sorts of bad behaviour can result.
Additionally, the Lexus had push button start. Pulling the key may not have had any effect if there was something wrong with the ECU.
And finally, brakes are powerfull enough on any car to arrest motion, but electronic systems that control brakes (ABS, stability control, etc.) can all override that safety feature.

My guess is that there is a problem with the pedals as mentioned, and that causes the ECU to get confused and go haywire.


RE: It's about time
By orgy08 on 1/27/2010 9:34:09 AM , Rating: 2
you can shift to neutral at any time


RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/27/2010 12:08:27 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, not if the computer hasn't met all the parameters for the switch.


RE: It's about time
By mindless1 on 1/27/2010 10:21:02 PM , Rating: 2
Do you have any evidence at all that there are ANY "parameters for the switch" into neutral?

This is the recommended procedure for people who have the acceleration problem.

I suspect you are wrong about the way electronic automobile controls work in general. IF the circuit is not malfuctioning (in which case the supposed parameters won't matter at all as it could be not following the intended logic), it is a very unusual thing for a car to have any possible parameter that could prevent shifting into neutral.

However, it cannot be assumed the circuit was operating properly, but my point is it is not a situation of "deny by default" when it comes to a shift into neutral, it is rather a situation of "always allow" if there is a capability remaining for the circuit to work no matter what parameters it sensed.


RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/28/2010 10:17:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you have any evidence at all that there are ANY "parameters for the switch" into neutral?

Yes, quite a bit, since I know exactly how they operate.

quote:
This is the recommended procedure for people who have the acceleration problem.

True, but old "recommended" procedures often become outdated with new technology. Remember the advice to "pump" your brakes in an emergency situation. ABS has eliminated that necessity, and works better than a human ever could, but a failure in that system can cause catostrophic results since the operator may not know the system has failed and thinks slamming the pedal is the best course of action. The "art" of pumping brakes is becoming lost and new generations of drivers may never develop those skills.

quote:
I suspect you are wrong about the way electronic automobile controls work in general.

I suspect you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about nor do you any idea about my experience.

Have you ever seen the programming tables in a modern VCM (ECU)? I have. I've spent many hundreds of hours working on them trying to perfect the tuning on several of my cars. I know exactly what parameters are required for proper Idle, RAF, Advance, VE, MAF, and yes, even shift parameters. Do you know how TCC PWM tables affect shifting performance? If not, then shut up and maybe learn something. If you do, then I'd be glad to have a rational discussion with you, but until then, don't for a second think I have no idea what I'm talking about.


RE: It's about time
By Spuke on 1/28/2010 6:10:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I suspect you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about nor do you any idea about my experience.
As I far as I'm concerned you're just some DS living in mom's basement. And, no, we're not the one's needing to provide proof. YOU are making the assertion, YOU need to provide the proof.


RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/28/2010 11:28:35 PM , Rating: 2
Why did you get involved in this Spuke?

I have a lot of respect for many of your posts, I think you're rather fair and overall quite knowledgable, so I have no idea where this attack would come from. Possibly because you were completely wrong about the rear wheel torque issue that we discussed before. I guess you're still carrying a bruised ego or something.

Again, I asked a question of the OP, that if he could explain to my satisfaction how the TCC PWM table controlled an automatic transmission performance, than we'd go further. It would be pointless for a mathemetician to explain non-linear equations to a preschooler, so if he has no knowledge of how a modern ECU is set up, than what's the point trying? I ask that same question to you. I'd be glad to discuss this in more depth if you actually knew what goes on.

As for proof, there are a few things I can mention.

First off, let me be clear, my original post was quite clear that it was my speculation on Toyota's problem.

Second, I have no idea about Toyota's ECU programming, so can offer no proof that they can lock neutral out. No interest in Toyotas and no experience with them. I thought my original post was quite clear about speculation though.

Third, I can definitively and with conviction say that you can indeed lock out neutral through programming on GM LSx cars. As for proof, what would you like, screen shots of the HP Tuners page? Or would you like me to fly to your house, flash your car and watch you kill yourself?

In lieu of that, how about it would be part of either the shift properies or Auto TCC page could cause a transmission to get stuck in gear with the wrong parameters. For example, if shift pressure were to go 100% across the board, it would be difficult for the transmission to release any gear. You do know there are over 400 interacting tables that control how an engine and transmission work together. A fault in any one of these can cause signifigant problems. Or, as I stated before, a defective component could send the wrong sensor voltage and cause the computer to get confused. Part of programming is error trapping, where you catch the confused program and give it a path to return.

However, with more information coming out of this, it appears that I may have been correct. Suggest you read something like this that backs up my assertion:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35110966/ns/business-a...


RE: It's about time
By mindless1 on 1/30/2010 12:17:48 AM , Rating: 2
You are still implying this is the master loop within which the failsafes reside. It is not. Just like all these parameters you keep touting do not override turning on or off the engine, they do not, generally, overide shifting into neutral.

This is a deliberate design decision. I urge you to stop fantasizing about what you claim you can program a car to do and get in a car and see if you can shift into neutral the way it IS programmed.


RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/30/2010 9:58:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is a deliberate design decision.

So you seem to be of the opinion that designers are infallible and cannot design imperfect equipment. With more reliance on electronic controls and software there are bound to be bugs in the control system.

I agree that it would be a failsafe, but if something goes wrong in a fully electronically controlled system, than all bets are off.

quote:
I urge you to stop fantasizing about what you claim you can program a car to do and get in a car and see if you can shift into neutral the way it IS programmed.

Using a program like HP Tuners VCM Scanner, I can program an LSx based automatic transmission car to go into any gear, reguardless of the shifter position. How's that for proof, wise guy? The only exception is park, which actually has a linkage based gear interlock.

Again, I have no idea how Toyota engineers designed thier system. It was my pure speculation that they had a more in depth problem than just a sticky pedal, backed by my own experience. I'd like to think that a verteran highway patrol officer would have known how to shift into neutral and avoid killing himself and his family.

Perhaps there is no issue with neutral, but reading the article linked above tends to give credance that other experts also believe that Toyota has some sort of control system problems.


RE: It's about time
By mindless1 on 1/30/2010 12:13:49 AM , Rating: 2
If you knew exactly, you'd have then provided that evidence instead of just a vague "yes a bit".

You have vaguely implied that because some computer controls are interdependent on other sensor readings, this proves transmission shifting into neutral is. You have not proven this, have not made any sense of it, simply claiming that essentially if A+B = C, that proves B+D = C too.

You go on with unrelated things like that we now have anti-lock brakes, or that there are programming routines for engine operation.

What you have not done is provide any evidence nor even a shred of logical indication that there would be a default lockout condition in shifting to neutral.

THAT is what Toyota recommends, now, for these exact problems, not some hypothetical car from decades ago you seem to have assumed I meant.

What you fail to grasp is that programming to make the engine automatically shift into a different gear is NOT A LOCKOUT OF THE ABILITY TO SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL!

Bottom Line: Shifting into neutral is a recommended step by both Toyota directly, and the NHTSA.

Geeze, I hate it when someone thinks they know so much that they stop learning.


RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/30/2010 10:20:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you knew exactly, you'd have then provided that evidence instead of just a vague "yes a bit".

Nor have you provided any evidence either, internet chest thumping at its finest. I don't know what other level of proof I could provide.

quote:
You have vaguely implied that because some computer controls are interdependent on other sensor readings, this proves transmission shifting into neutral is.

No not vaguely, I specifically stated I could reprogram my car to disable shifting.

quote:
You go on with unrelated things like that we now have anti-lock brakes, or that there are programming routines for engine operation.

It was an analogy, and a quite effective one. Old advice can become outdated with new technology. I don't see how anyone with a brain can't grasp that tennant. Shifting into neutral is the first thing that I would do, but it may not be possible in more modern cars, which is a design decision that I don't agree with. Failures of such systems have been proven to cause accidents. While incredibly reliable, no system is perfect and sometimes problems arise.

quote:
What you have not done is provide any evidence nor even a shred of logical indication that there would be a default lockout condition in shifting to neutral.

Did you not read read my post or do you choose to selectively read. Shift pressure, force motor current, gear timing interlock, all these could be programmed in such a way to prevent a gear ratio from releasing, reguardless of shifter position (except park).

quote:
THAT is what Toyota recommends, now, for these exact problems, not some hypothetical car from decades ago you seem to have assumed I meant.....Bottom Line: Shifting into neutral is a recommended step by both Toyota directly, and the NHTSA.

Yes, the advice from Toyota and NHTSA seemed to work out quite well when they first advised to remove the floor mats that were causing the problems. Oops.

And since you haven't described to my satisfaction any indication that you have even a beginners knowledge of ECU programming, I'm going to recurse myself from further discussions on this topic, since it is utterly pointless.


RE: It's about time
By Pryde on 1/28/2010 1:30:26 AM , Rating: 1
You can shift into neutral at anytime, this is a safety feature, it overrides any other input from the computer.


RE: It's about time
By iFX on 1/27/2010 1:19:12 PM , Rating: 2
No, not in these new Toyotas. There is no phyiscal linkage from the gear selector to the transmission and no physical throttle linkage. This is the problem. Everything is done by wire and Toyota's computer system and software has some nasty bugs.

You can shift into neutral but you're physical act only makes an electrical connection on a circuit board when sends a signal to the transmission to change gear, there is no physical connection.

Drive by wire SUCKS.


RE: It's about time
By menace on 1/27/2010 3:42:03 PM , Rating: 2
This is so obvious I'd bet it was mentioned in another chain...

If you have the gas pedal hooked into the computer to control the fuel, it wouldn't take much to add a signal input to monitor the brake pedal. Just have a fail safe in the control s/w "if brake depressed then reset throttle to zero". Duh.

Now I realize if you have a manual transmission that might make clutching from a stop on a hill difficult if you are used to simultaneously toeing the brake while heeling the accelerator to keep from rolling backward because some a**hole pulled up 3 inches from your bumper, but you would not have to enable that fail safe in a manual transmission vehicle because the driver can simply depress the clutch to stop accelerating.


RE: It's about time
By Pryde on 1/28/2010 1:33:45 AM , Rating: 2
Just use the handbrake and do it properly.


RE: It's about time
By omnicronx on 1/27/2010 5:44:03 PM , Rating: 2
Wow I didnt know all of this, glad I drive a standard ;)


RE: It's about time
By Runiteshark on 1/27/2010 8:03:59 PM , Rating: 3
Your standard car can still have an electronic throttlebody.

Don't forget your ignition, timing, and fuel pressure/spray is controlled by the ECU.


RE: It's about time
By theapparition on 1/27/2010 9:52:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, but at any time the clutch can be depressed. Yes it may blow the motor, but at least you're alive. Cars with transmissions that are automatically controlled don't have that luxury.

But something to think about. All the newest sports cars have dual clutch electronically controlled manuals. Basically, hardlinked automatics without the TC. I don't have enough experience with them to know exactly how those internals work.


RE: It's about time
By Spuke on 1/28/2010 6:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Basically, hardlinked automatics without the TC. I don't have enough experience with them to know exactly how those internals work.
Most are still manual transmissions but the clutch and shifting are actuated electronically. Mercedes and the upcoming Ford Fiesta are just replacing the TC with clutches.


RE: It's about time
By Kurz on 1/29/2010 9:28:13 AM , Rating: 2
Good post.


RE: It's about time
By markitect on 1/27/2010 9:02:15 AM , Rating: 1
Or put on the regular brake
Or put it in neutral


RE: It's about time
By Ristogod on 1/27/2010 9:25:26 AM , Rating: 2
Or turn the key off.

The reason is because most people are poor drivers and don't ever think about what they would do or practice what to do in bad situations. Mostly the person needs to remain calm and simply not react in a panic.

I was 9 years old when I started driving tractors on the farm. The very first thing my Grandfather taught me was that when I get into trouble I should pull the engine cut-off. And one time I had to use that advice and I'm still here today because of it.


RE: It's about time
By Pneumothorax on 1/27/2010 9:58:08 AM , Rating: 4
by Ristogod on January 27, 2010 at 9:25 AM

Or turn the key off.

You do realize that this car didn't have a "traditional key" and had instead a push button start system? What the poor cop didn't realize to force the engine off you have to hold down the start button for a few seconds to kill the engine while it's racing.


RE: It's about time
By GWD5318 on 1/27/2010 10:31:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or turn the key off.


This is something the driver should absolutely NOT do. At least, not until they have steered their way to the side of the road or someplace else relatively safe.

Today's modern cars have power brakes and steering that derive their power from the engine. If the engine is shut off then those two means of vehicle control are compromised. Will the steering and brakes still work? Yes, but at drastically reduced effectiveness for which most drivers would have trouble compensating.


RE: It's about time
By rudolphna on 1/27/10, Rating: 0
RE: It's about time
By Alexstarfire on 1/27/2010 11:09:06 AM , Rating: 1
I can confirm that's the case with the 2002 model Prius. Even though that's not one of the cars in question it still proves that what he said does work. At least with the 2002 Prius I had he's a little off on the brakes. You'd get 1 good pump and the next pump would be harder and that's all you really got. Not that you couldn't brake anymore, but it's a lot harder. That said.... you always have the e-brake which is still completely manual and not computer controlled.... JUST FOR THIS VERY REASON.

When I heard about this problem several months ago I just though.... "Well, I'm not stupid so I'll be ok." I'd be a little bit more worried if it happened in my 2007 Prius because as one of the other posters mentioned "it's not a traditional key system." If it's the computer causing the problems it simply might not turn off. At best it'd just be a lot slower at turning off since you have to hold it for a couple seconds before it'll do anything.


RE: It's about time
By Kurz on 1/29/2010 9:30:58 AM , Rating: 2
Why did you get downrated...
This is completely true.


RE: It's about time
By teldar on 1/27/2010 10:48:03 AM , Rating: 3
Or, any man should be able to force power steering or braking for a while. Is it harder? Absolutely.
Is it impossible? No.

My car died while on the expressway and I was able to steer to the edge of the road and come to a stop just as I wanted to. I just had to try a little harder.


RE: It's about time
By GWD5318 on 1/27/2010 10:49:20 AM , Rating: 1
Bully for you!

However, that 80 year old blue-haired grandmother in that Camry behind you might not be so capable.


RE: It's about time
By tastyratz on 1/27/2010 11:27:15 AM , Rating: 2
Then she shouldn't be worried because turning the key from the run to the accessory position will only disable ignition but not decouple the engine from the transmission (which is still spinning from the moving car)
The engine will still produce power steering pressure for non electric power steering, and it will still produce vacuum for power brakes (which would operate for several successive stops after the engine is off).

It is very difficult to drive a vehicle at low speed (10-15mph)without power steering unless you have some muscle. At speeds where it is dangerous and your health is a concern even that blue haired grandmother should be able to navigate a car without power steering. I have done so myself. at 15mph she will probably survive the crash.

While older vehicles did not have as tight of a steering ratio, how do you think that blue haired old lady drove before the modern invention of power steering?

If you need to know what to do in a stuck accelerator scenario?
http://www.wikihow.com/Stop-a-Car-with-No-Brakes
There are 101 ways to stop the car safely and if you have any basic concept of driving and any reasonable eligibility for that state accredited drivers license you should be aware of several of them. Emergency brake is pretty fitly titled for one.

Personally I think the accelerator sticking on its own is concern enough for a recall and investigation. The floormat bunching underneath though? Give me a break. What about people with non factory floormats that kick them under the pedal? Are people REALLY that stupid that they cant realize it when they kick crap under their pedal? Should wal-mart stop selling floormats?

"do not push floormat under pedals when driving and have no effing clue what to do about it while completely oblivious"
"do not stop chainsaw with hands"
"do not use hairdryer in shower"
are all labels made in the same factory which I would like to grenade.
The technical term is natural selection, and I support it.


RE: It's about time
By Lifted on 1/27/2010 6:50:03 PM , Rating: 2
I was in the car with my 75 year old grandmother when the car stalled, no power, and she couldn't stop the car and could barely steer it. Luckily it was on a small street and we just rolled into someones yard and almost into their tree. If moving faster on a busy road or a highway and a turn or quick stop was coming up...


RE: It's about time
By mindless1 on 1/27/2010 10:49:08 PM , Rating: 2
You are simply wrong. Without ignition, the engine does not rotate from the transmission in an automatic, it does not produce vacuum.

However you are right it will have enough pressure for a few pedal applications still, from remaining vac not from the transmission or engine spinning.

As for how the old lady drove before power steering, it is not the same thing. Ratios weren't as tight but also you were not fighting against the hydraulics of the steering rack and further, back then wheels and tires were not so massive and flat (per any particular size of vehicle).

If the problem were just one of user error/natural selection, there would be no Toyota recall.


RE: It's about time
By tastyratz on 1/30/2010 12:05:41 AM , Rating: 2
I disagree, I unfortunately daily drive my car thats an automatic right now... and if I disable the key the engine keeps going.

Don't forget as well that at highway speeds most auto cars lock the torque converter.


RE: It's about time
By rudolphna on 1/27/2010 10:31:32 AM , Rating: 2
Putting on the brakes at that speed won't have as much effect as you think it might. Putting it in neutral, yes no excuse. However, when you are travelling at 80+ MPH, the brakes may no longer be able to overcome the combined momentum, and engine power, especially at WOT. When stopped, sure. But at those speeds not only will the brakes prove virtually ineffective, but the pads will very, very quickly wear down to nothing under heavy braking. It's a Double whammy.


RE: It's about time
By Keeir on 1/27/2010 3:32:28 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry no.

Consistently and firmly applying the brakes will stop any production car at any speed.

Consumer Reports tested a 2009 Camry and discovered that brake distance only increased ~10 ft from 60-0 when the throttle was wide open.

They even ran multiple runs on the same set of brakes and pads in the same day. Even with warm brakes and worn pads/rotors, the Camry stopped within a reasonable distance with full throttle.

However, Toyota has the following issues

#1. A poor pedal design. Thier pedal does get stuck significantly easier than other manufacturors. The "fix" was simply to shorten the pedal by chopping off the end. However, the same poor pedal design is present.

#2. Drive by wire... but the car allows the condition for 100% throttle and 100% brake. How stupid is that? The car should cut throttle when its clear the brake is being intentionally applied.

#3. Push button start. A 3 second interval to "force" off the engine is just no good. 4 seconds (1 second reaction time) is a -long- time to be steering a 70,80,90 mph car through traffic with one hand firmly placed on a button.

Each of the above 3 things are done differently by other manufacturers (in a mix/match fashion). Pedals can be designed which would never get lodged due to a "small" fixed point like a matt, many truck pedal -are- designed this way. Drive-by-wire can include the throttle cut-off.. It actually -should-. Push button system can be designed to react more naturally. Like Nissan's that shuts the engine down after 3 frantic pushes.

The issue with the Highway Patrol Office is like the perfect storm. A poorly maintained (brakes were already in poor condition) and improperly outfitted car was loaned to a person unfamiliar with the car which began acceleration at high speeds in a populated area. As an extra bonus, distractions in the form of passengers were present.


RE: It's about time
By jconan on 1/27/2010 3:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
that's where engine braking comes in if someone actually knows how to use it. Thank God older cars still have these hand brakes compared to the newer models that have gone towards foot hand brakes.


RE: It's about time
By grandpope on 1/27/2010 9:02:54 PM , Rating: 2
The parking brake doesnt even work like that any more.
A work vehicle I drove a few years ago would only ding at me when I put the e-brake on while moving... no skids :(


RE: It's about time
By drycrust3 on 1/27/2010 1:55:35 PM , Rating: 3
What happens if you turn the ignition off? My experience with many cars is you can kill the engine by turning the key back one "notch", thus not locking the steering.
If the person, at 120 mph turned the key back one "notch" wouldn't that kill the engine, then the gearbox would continue to function and the engine would become a brake and stop the car. The steering wouldn't lock and the indicators and lights would continue to function. Once you've stopped, you call a tow truck and get the thing towed to a garage. Yes, that is the expensive way of doing things, but at least you're alive and only lost some sweat.


RE: It's about time
By bjacobson on 1/27/2010 11:39:48 AM , Rating: 2
Really doesn't bother me--
1). They've fixed it now. Take your car in to the dealer and they fix it for free.
2). It's only happened a few times for all the millions of vehicles sold
3). If the gas pedal gets stuck, use your foot to get behind it and pull it back up. Or put the car into neutral. Or turn the car off. It's not anywhere near impossible to turn the wheel without power steering-- it's just harder.
4). They've STOPPED selling ALL these models. That shows they care about quality. So I know in the future if something like this ever happens again, they're going to do bite the bullet financially and do the right thing and fix it. Want to bet GM wouldn't have given the same situation? I will.


RE: It's about time
By compy386 on 1/27/2010 1:02:03 PM , Rating: 3
1) They haven't fixed it that's why they stopped production.
3) If a state trooper couldn't do it what makes you think most drivers could. If it's a problem with the ECU they transmission might not have even worked.
4) Toyota failed to stop sales and production as required by law until 5 days later.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/nhtsa-reveals-toyota-w...


RE: It's about time
By ajoyner777 on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: It's about time
By 306maxi on 1/27/2010 8:29:48 AM , Rating: 5
Oh come on. How the hell are they meant to magically know about faulty components till something happens. Fauly/badly designed components will always be around in some way shape or form. I had a sticking throttle on my car once and just put it in neutral and stopped just fine. It's sad that people died but most cars have the ability to disconnect the drive wheels from the engine, put the car in neutral and you're fine


RE: It's about time
By rudolphna on 1/27/2010 10:38:25 AM , Rating: 2
Most people aren't that smart to realize that though. To most people what happens under the hood might as well be magic. They know that turn the key/push button to start, put in drive to go. That's about it. The truth is this problem with toyotas have been around since they started using TBW in the mid 2000s. They haven't said a word about it till a couple months ago. That, combined with all the problems they've had lately, and the quality drop.. Toyota is going to be the next General Motors.

They've gotten content, and lazy and are paying the price for it. Losing market share to Ford. Even GM is going to be catching up to them, with the huge quality improvements. Toyota hides behind the illusion of quality it has garnered over the decades, and for that is going to have a huge shock when it's sales drop like a rock.


RE: It's about time
By ajoyner777 on 1/27/2010 11:18:48 PM , Rating: 1
People are quick to jump on the bandwagon when Ford, or Chrysler, or GM make a mistake, but something goes wrong at Toyota, and they immediately get defensive, and are quick to forgive. Just goes to show you how biased some people are towards these cars.


RE: It's about time
By Aloonatic on 1/27/2010 8:32:19 AM , Rating: 2
You'll never buy another car, bike, van, truck...

Be careful as you walk down the street too, someone could be driving one of these cars into you.


RE: It's about time
By omnicronx on 1/27/2010 8:32:45 AM , Rating: 2
You do realize I could probably link 20 pages of the exact same thing happening to other various car companies, (including all of the American big 3, and every single car company has at least a few of these complaints EACH YEAR.. so I guess you won't be driving ever again.

That being said, apparently Toyota does lead the way in Acceleration complains over the past few years, with Ford following pretty closely too.. GM, Honda and Nissan were at the bottom of the list..


RE: It's about time
By rudolphna on 1/27/2010 10:41:57 AM , Rating: 2
Not nearly in the quantities toyota is receiving them though. And no matter what toyota says, this is almost definitely a problem with the computer controlled throttle. They just don't want to say it. That is the only common thread between these vehicles. Let's face it, as the author said, they've gone from blaming floor mats, to wear parts, and now they've stopped not only sales, but they've stopped PRODUCTION of these vehicles. Something big is definitely up.

Other automakers use throttle-by-wire too, but they don't have these problems in nearly the same amount.


RE: It's about time
By LRonaldHubbs on 1/27/2010 8:26:58 AM , Rating: 5
Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

I guess X is pretty large in this case...


Let me correct that for you...
By porkpie on 1/27/10, Rating: -1
RE: Let me correct that for you...
By rudolphna on 1/27/2010 10:13:58 PM , Rating: 2
Oh go shove it. Enough with this whiny whiny bullshit over taxpayers. You haven't payed a dime. Your taxes haven't gone up, so shut it.


By brickd007 on 1/28/2010 8:42:38 PM , Rating: 2
Just because you aren't feeling any pain yet doesn't mean you don't see the guy hooking your nuts to a car battery.


"So if you want to save the planet, feel free to drive your Hummer. Just avoid the drive thru line at McDonalds." -- Michael Asher











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