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A terrorist attack has wounded or killed many people in downtown Oslo, Norway  (Source: Trond Lindholm/CNN)

The attack on the government buildings shocked the peaceful nation, which has one of the world's lowest crime rates and the highest standard of living.  (Source: Reuters/Holm Morten/Canpix)

Norwegian officials are still try to assess the extent of the damage and how many were killed. The prime minister of Norway is safe, fortunately, despite the blast hitting his usual office.  (Source: AFP/Getty Images)

It is suspected that the possible bombings were attacks triggered by the publication of this Danish cartoon that depicted the prophet Mohammed. Radical Islamic fundamentalists demanded killings in response to the publication. Norway, ranked first in a study on freedom of the press, was among those to republish it.  (Source: Wikipedia)
Over 19 people reported dead, reports indicate arrest of Norwegian national

At approximately 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time, 4 p.m. in Norwegian time, Oslo, the nation's capital and largest city was rocked by a massive explosion.  The blast reportedly struck the main government building in Central Oslo.  And it's suspected that Norway has been the victim of a massive series of terrorist attacks.

(See update for new information on the nature of these attacks, and updated casualty figures.)

I. The Blast

The explosion was powerful enough to blow windows off the main government building, which housed the office of Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, and left several other government buildings in flames, including the Oil Ministry.

A second explosion reportedly hit Norway's Parliament building.

It was chaos on streets as hospitals rushed to try to treat the blast victims.  People were clutching victims, trying to comfort them as they bled.

A spokesperson for the downtown Legevakten Hospital commented to CNN, "Right now we are not too sure what has happened, we are watching the news and talking to the other hospitals. We don’t know what caused it or how many people are injured."

Nick Soubiea, an American-Swedish tourist in Oslo, recalls, "It was almost in slow motion, like a big wave that almost knocked us off our chairs. It was extremely frightening. There are people running down the streets, people crying, everyone's on their cell phones calling home."

A press officer at Oslo Police Station is quoted as saying, "There has been a bomb explosion in the government area. At least one person is dead and a number of people are injured, we don’t have the exact number yet."

The prime minister is fortunately reported to be safe.

Meanwhile, on the island of Utoeya, south of Oslo, there was an attack on an annual youth gathering of the prime minister's Labor Party.  A gunman disguised as a police officer opened fire on the children, injuring at least five of them.  It is unknown if the violent crime was related to the Oslo attacks, but given Norway's low crime rate, it seems distinctly possible.

The attacks bring to mind the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 in the U.S. or November 26, 2008 in Mumbai, India.  Both of those organized attacks occurred in multiple places and triggered widespread fear and chaos.

II. Possible Attacks May Have Been Triggered by Radicals' Censorship Demands

Norway was among the nations who defied radical Muslims and reprinted cartoons depicting the Islamic prophet Mohammed in an unflattering light.  The cartoons were originally published in the newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

The Norwegian press defended the republication, pointing out that numerous other religious figures, including the Buddha, Jesus, Moses, and Shiva are often depicting in a mocking or unfavorable light in cartoons.  They also said that the cartoons were explicitly protected under the right to free speech.

The issue has ignited a fierce debate in Europe.  Many argued that the cartoons went too far.  Others say that the radical reaction and death threats that ensued, validated the publication.

In recent months Norway reportedly has seen an increase in chatter from suspected operatives of the militant fundamentalist Islamic group Al Qaeda.  In September 2010 a 37-year-old Iraqi Kurd was arrested and accused of plotting a terrorist bombing.

Norway is a remarkably peaceful and socially progressive country with only 23,000 active personnel in its armed forces, including civilian officials.  Norway has approximately 4.9 million people and it has the highest human development index (the combined average life expectancy, literacy, education and standards of living) of any country in the world.

Norway also reportedly ranked first in freedom of the press and last in homicides.

Update: 

It now appears that the attacker may have been a lone actor and may not have been a radical Islamist.  A 32-year-old Norwegian man, reportedly a tall blonde native of the country, was arrested on Utoeya, and explosives were found as well.  He is suspected of committing both attacks.

The Washington Post reports 10 people are dead from the Oslo bombing, while CNN reports that at least 9 people (presumably mostly children) were killed in the shooting on the island.  The suspect reportedly used a semi-automatic weapon to gun down the children.

While it's possible that the man could have been a jihadist, this is seeming increasingly less likely as radical Islamists retracted initial statements claiming responsibility -- atypical in a real attack.

Norway also has a violently vocal right-wing Neo-Nazi movement, which has been highly critical of the government.  Thus it's possible that the attack could have been a hate crime, instead of religious extremism.

At least one report [translated] from 9 years ago details the arrest of a 23-year-old Neo-Nazi, who was carrying 1 kg of dynamite and semiautomatic handguns.  Local news have reportedly suggested this may be the man involved in the attack. (Thanks, todda7 for the tip!)


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An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/22/2011 6:13:20 PM , Rating: 5
What's happened in Oslo is a real tragedy. To clarify something:
- The bomber in Oslo and the gun-man at Utoeya is most likely the same man. This is also what the police believes, though it is not confirmed yet.
- The gun-man is arrested, in custody and is now being questioned. It is not clear if he is a part of a group or if he operated on his own.
- The gun-man is a 32-year old Norwegian man.
- 7 dead in the bombings in Oslo, around 10 in Utoeya.
- The police found bombs at Uteoya which was not detonated.

While there are few extremists here in Norway, most of them are neo-Nazist. My guess is that this person belongs or belonged to one of Norway's neo-nazist organisations, and not connected with Islam-extremists at all.

A brief list of the facts can be found here on this norwegian forum. It is constantly updated.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t...

A picture from Uteoya, shows dead people and a man carrying something resembling a gun. WARNING: dead people, viewer discretion advised. Can be viewed here: http://bildr.no/image/932900.jpeg




RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/22/2011 6:20:35 PM , Rating: 5
Also: I am Norwegian, and will take questions which may not be answered in the international news.

I will also say this one more time:
There is nothing which indicates that the bombing in Oslo or the massacre at Utoeya is connected with Islam-extremists. Most likely it is the work of right-wing extremists, though nothing is confirmed at this point.

It is actually very likely that it is this man which carried out the bombings and shootings:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t...

Please note that the article is 10 years old, making the person 32 years old today (which matches with the captured gun-man.) Also, Paradise is the name of a place.


RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/23/2011 2:44:11 AM , Rating: 5
New update:
The number of deaths at Utoyea has now risen to 80 people. This coincides better with the pictures released of tens of people laying in their own pool of blood by the shore.

The captured man is not the one in the aforementioned article. However, he still fits the description somewhat.
His name is Anders Behring Breivik, a 32-year old Norwegian nationalist. It is not certain if he is a member of any neo-nazist organizations, however he clearly expresses his views as nationalistic, anti-Islamic and anti-multicultural.

He has for a long time been active on a forum called Document.no, and a collection of his posts can be found here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t...

Notice that you do not have to look for long until you find evidence of his wicked views: "For me it is very hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differ. They are all supporters of hate-ideologies. Not all Muslims, Nazis and Marxists are conservative, most are moderate. But does it matter? A moderate Nazi might, after having experienced fraud, choose to be conservative. A moderate Muslim can, after being refused to enter a club, be conservative, etc."


RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/23/2011 10:20:38 AM , Rating: 2
The Utøya-massacre is actually the worst massacre done by a single person in all of recent history. It is worse than Virginia Tech and Columbine combined.

More pictures:
!!!!!!!!WARNING: Some show dead or hurt people!!!!!!!!!

Utøya Island: Watch closely and you'll see dead people and living people hiding at the shore.
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174238/174238...

Remains from the explosion in Oslo:
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174216/174216...

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/dailyrecord3/jul201...

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174226/174226...

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174213/174213...

Breivik wearing a gun and a (fake) police uniform
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174/174279/174279...

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2011/...

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/2011/7/23/drept...

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/0...

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/images/uploads/...


RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/23/2011 3:12:04 PM , Rating: 2
BREAKING NEWS:

Breivik posted a video on Youtube the same day as of the bombing and shootings. The video is not yet discovered by the Norwegian media. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw


RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/23/2011 3:21:14 PM , Rating: 2
He even wrote a book, which he sent hours before the bomb went off. The media still does not know this. This is the Breivik manifesto, to you, here, before everyone else. Here is is:

http://www.sharepdfbooks.com/3TZOU0V52W6B/2083_-_A...

A quote:
3.40 Applying deceptive means in urban guerrilla warfare

1. Always mask your real goals, by using the ruse of a fake goal that everyone takes for granted, until the real goal is achieved. Tactically, this is known as an 'open feint'; in front of everyone, you point west, when your goal is actually in the east. By the time everyone realised it, you have already achieved your goal.


RE: An update from Norway
By lagomorpha on 7/23/11, Rating: 0
RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/23/2011 9:48:35 AM , Rating: 3
I do know that some Nazistic and neo-Nazistic groups support Islamic-extremists, however most, if not all, of the Norwegian neo-Nazist groups are anti-Islamic. Breivik (the bomber and the gun-man) has connections in neo-Nazistic groups, but it is unclear if his act of terror was done all by himself or with the help and support of such groups. Only time will show, but what is clear is that Breivik did not support Islam or Islam-extremist. Judging by the views he expresses at Document.no, it seems quite clear that his opinion on Islam, even non-extremists, is very negative.

My opinion of the matter is that the extremists are always representative of the people and society of which they originate. While Norwegians generally is considered quite modern and liberal, many people are negative to the increasing immigration of Muslims. Racism is not especially common, but anti-Islam views are and have been very common relative to other extremist or racist views. Xenophobia is not uncommon. Norway has very few extremist-groups, but those that exist are often neo-Nazistic and anti-Islamic. An example is Vigrid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigrid_%28Norway%29

More news:
- The bomb was homemade of the type ANFO. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO
I actually work for the company which sold the ammonium-nitrate. There are not many who knows the potential of ammonium-nitrate (27-0-0 and up), but as farmers know the stuff is used as fertilizer.
- (from twitter )Latest from Utøya (police spokesman): Search is still ongoing with divers in the water, and choppers in the air. Many still missing.

Hundreds of youths jumped in the water to escape the gunshots yesterday. Many spent over 1HR in the sea swimming away. Many unaccounted for.

Main issue for the rescue operation/police search is to determine how many bodies are still in the sea. Very difficult conditions.

-Breivik is member of Swedish naziforum which encourages attacks on govt buildings. The right-wing naziforum, 'Nordisk', has 22,000 members and focuses on political terrorism.

-7 dead after Oslo bomb, 84 dead after Utøya shootings. Total of 91 dead. Over 19 people in surgery for gunshot wounds, hospital say.

-It is suspected that a second man assisted Breivik in the Utøya shootings.


RE: An update from Norway
By lagomorpha on 7/23/11, Rating: 0
RE: An update from Norway
By todda7 on 7/23/2011 8:44:13 PM , Rating: 5
Your attempt at humor by referencing movies gives me no satisfaction in these times of sorrow. On per capita basis, the Utøya-massacre left twice the amount of victims than 9/11. Most, if not all, of the 85 victims where under 25 years of age. Some of the youngest children attending was 7 years old. Some where shot by bullets containing liquid nicotine (which is highly poisonous), in case the victims would not bleed out by the time the police got there.

The man, wearing a Police uniform, claimed to have news about the bombings in Oslo. When people gathered, he opened fire and executed them. Some tried to hide in their tents. He walked slowly around, executing one at a time, knowing they could not escape. Then he followed the ones who where trying to flee by swimming in the ice-cold water. Most where shot at the shore, and after he double-checked that they where dead he opened fire at the ones trying to swim across.

In his 1500+ pages manifesto, he says:
"Cornered prey will often mount a final desperate attack. To prevent this you let
the enemy believe he still has a chance for freedom. His will to fight is thus
dampened by his desire to escape. When in the end the freedom is proven a
falsehood the enemy's morale will be defeated and he will surrender without a
fight."

Such events as this are new to Norwegians. The American society was fucked up enough to produce people like this already in the 70's. When the inevitable happened in Norway, it has rendered the population in shock.


Tech News?
By FDisk City on 7/22/2011 2:54:25 PM , Rating: 5
While I appreciate the article, how is this tech/science news? Honest question.




RE: Tech News?
By MrPickins on 7/22/2011 8:26:50 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly.

The category for the article is "Science."

WTF, DailyTech?


RE: Tech News?
By freshmint on 7/23/2011 1:20:28 PM , Rating: 4
Jason Mickmeister is aiming for the Pulitzer. Odd, since the only things he types about are heavily opinionated commentaries, I mean news articles, that happen to mislead rather than inform. Impartial reporting? F'get about it! Sensationalism? DO IT! Jason Mick is my hero.


subject
By slyck on 7/23/2011 8:08:47 AM , Rating: 4
"a hate crime, instead of religious extremism"

So what's the difference?




RE: subject
By lagomorpha on 7/23/2011 9:10:07 AM , Rating: 2
Obviously religious extremism is protected by their constitution.


Sickening
By Paj on 7/25/2011 7:54:25 AM , Rating: 3
Some of the comments in here are completely ridiculous. Blaming muslims automatically for an act of home-grown terrorism has really shown the true colours of many members of this board - may they be ashamed of themselves.

Hopefully this episode will remind us how precious the things we take for granted really are, and how important it is not to jump to conclusions, making decisions based on fact, rather than gut instinct, opinion or hearsay.




RE: Sickening
By tng on 7/30/2011 9:07:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Blaming muslims automatically for an act of home-grown terrorism has really shown the true colours of many members
Or maybe it shows that they are just realists. After all it is not like those Dutch Tulip Fundamentalist groups have been acting up lately. Initial thoughts on who is responsible for this were correct to go to Islam first. You thought probably it was to didn't you?

Would you have said the same thing if everyone here had started off blaming a Christian Fundamentalist? I bet you would have thought that was OK after seeing allot of your posts here.


By BZDTemp on 7/22/2011 3:48:32 PM , Rating: 3
The gunman supposedly speaks Norwegian and also looks native.




Blew Windows off???
By SSDMaster on 7/23/2011 1:23:46 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The explosion was powerful enough to blow windows off the main government building


format /q /f

Some powerful stuff. (oh wait is this a tech blog or a whatever I wanna post blog?)




Observation
By wgbutler on 7/25/2011 9:46:23 AM , Rating: 3
All this talk about religion and trying to blame fundamentalist Christians in some way for the Norwegian terrorist attack is odd considering that Anders Behring Breivik wrote in his manifesto that he was not religious, didn't pray, and doubted the existence of God.

It is true that he professed some loyalty to "Christian Europe" but it is clear from his writings that this was more of a cultural preference to have a Europe free of Islamic influence and had nothing to do with any religious beliefs.

He also wrote that he completely believed in Darwinism and that churches should incorporate the truth of evolution into their teachings. He said:

quote:
As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings.


This sounds more like Jason Mick than Christian fundamentalists. Based on the logic used in this discussion so far, can we now assume that Jason Mick is a potential terrorist? I'd be very interested in hearing why or why not...




Metal, not Islam.
By sabbede on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: Metal, not Islam.
By sabbede on 7/22/2011 3:13:23 PM , Rating: 1
P.S. Explosions are metal as f**k.


RE: Metal, not Islam.
By kraeper on 7/22/2011 3:44:18 PM , Rating: 1
InFlames wanted more realistic flames for cover art.

(Swedish I know, but they do travel.)


Followup
By wgbutler on 7/27/2011 9:10:49 PM , Rating: 2
I read an interesting article from Ann Coulter that discussed this situation:

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2011-07-27.html

quote:

...True, in one lone entry on Breivik's gaseous 1,500-page manifesto, "2083: A European Declaration of Independence," he calls himself "Christian." But unfortunately he also uses a great number of other words to describe himself, and these other words make clear that he does not mean "Christian" as most Americans understand the term. (Incidentally, he also cites The New York Times more than a half-dozen times.)

Had anyone at the Times actually read Breivik's manifesto, they would have seen that he uses the word "Christian" as a handy moniker to mean "European, non-Islamic" -- not a religious Christian or even a vague monotheist. In fact, at several points in his manifesto, Breivik stresses that he has a beef with Christians for their soft-heartedness. (I suppose that's why the Times is never worried about a "Christian backlash.")

A casual perusal of Breivik's manifesto clearly shows that he uses the word "Christian" similarly to the way some Jewish New Yorkers use it to mean "non-Jewish." In this usage, Christopher Hitchens and Madalyn Murray O'Hair are "Christians."

I told a Jewish gal trying to set me up with one of her friends once that he had to be Christian, and she exclaimed that she had the perfect guy: a secular Muslim atheist. (This was the least-popular option on the '60s board game Dream Date, by the way).

Breivik is very clear that you don't even have to believe in God to join his movement, saying in a self-interview:

Q: Do I have to believe in God or Jesus in order to become a Justiciar Knight?

A: As this is a cultural war, our definition of being a Christian does not necessarily constitute that you are required to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus.

He goes on to say that a "Christian fundamentalist theocracy" is "everything we DO NOT want," and a "secular European society" is "what we DO want."

"It is enough," Breivik says, "that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist." That statement doesn't even make sense in America.

At the one and only meeting of Breivik's "Knights Templar" in London in 2002, there were nine attendees, three of whom he describes as "Christian atheists" and one as a "Christian agnostic." (Another dozen people mistook it for a Renaissance Faire and were turned away.)

Breivik clearly explains that his "Knights Templar" is "not a religious organization but rather a Christian 'culturalist' military order." He even calls on the "European Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu community" to join his fight against "the Islamization of Europe."

He doesn't believe in Christianity or want anyone else to, but apparently supports celebrating Christmas simply to annoy Muslims.

Breivik says he is "not an excessively religious man," brags that he is "first and foremost a man of logic," calls himself "economically liberal" and reveres Darwinism.

But Times reporters had their "Eureka!" moment as soon as they heard Breivik used the word "Christian" someplace to identify himself. No one at the Times bothered to read Breivik's manifesto to see that he doesn't use the term the way the rest of us do. That might have interfered with the paper's obsessive Christian-bashing.

Other famous killers dubbed conservative Christians by the Times include Timothy McVeigh and Jared Loughner.

McVeigh was a pot-smoking atheist who said, "Science is my religion."

Similarly, Breivik says in his manifesto that "it is essential that science take an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings" –- a statement that would be incomprehensible to all the real scientists, such as Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Bacon, Newton, Mendel, Pasteur, Planck, Einstein and Pauli, all of whom believed the whole purpose of science was to understand God.

The Tucson shooter, Jared Loughner, was lyingly described by the Times as a pro-life fanatic. Not only did more honest news outlets, such as ABC News, report exactly the opposite -- for example, how Loughner alarmed his classmates by laughing about an aborted baby in class -- but Loughner's friends described him as "left wing," "a political radical," "quite liberal" and "a pothead." Another said Loughner's mother was Jewish.

The only reason Timothy McVeigh has gone down in history as a right-wing Christian and Jared Loughner has not -- despite herculean efforts by much of the mainstream media to convince us otherwise -- is that by January 2011 when Loughner went on his murder spree, conservatives had enough media outlets to reveal the truth.

As explained in the smash best-seller "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America," the liberal rule is: Any criminal act committed by a white man with a gun is a right-wing, Christian conspiracy, whereas any criminal act committed by a nonwhite is the government violating someone's civil liberties....




can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By inperfectdarkness on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Kurz on 7/22/2011 1:51:12 PM , Rating: 4
How do you know the bomber was Islamic?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By MrBlastman on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Jeffk464 on 7/22/2011 2:15:14 PM , Rating: 1
I'll give you 100:1 and bet a thousand bucks on it.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By AssBall on 7/22/2011 4:36:09 PM , Rating: 4
I don't care what the hell he/she is/was. Terrorism is for ass eating retards.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By GulWestfale on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By GulWestfale on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 6:57:32 PM , Rating: 2
It's murder by a homophobe.


By puplan on 7/22/2011 7:17:41 PM , Rating: 5
It looks like you are going to loose your $1K. Here is the latest interpretation of events:

"A Norwegian police official says the 32-year-old Norwegian man suspected of the Oslo bombing and a shooting at a youth camp does not appear to be linked to Islamist terrorism.

The official says the attacks probably have more in common with the 1995 attack on a U.S. federal building in Olkahoma City than the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks."


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By smitty3268 on 7/22/2011 7:23:45 PM , Rating: 3
So far, the police have arrested 1 person, described as a tall blonde norwegian citizen. So, anyone taking that 100:1 bet is looking pretty good right now.

Of course, nothing is known for certain yet.


By smitty3268 on 7/22/2011 7:30:01 PM , Rating: 2
So, therefore, can we all agree that all blonde norwegians are evil? Cuz that makes sense, right?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By AliShawkat on 7/22/2011 9:23:53 PM , Rating: 1
Hey check out these american idiots. All got owned. Guess what? the bomber was a zionist ROFL.


By Etsp on 7/23/2011 5:48:52 PM , Rating: 2
Uhhh, just because he isn't muslim doesn't automatically make him a zionist. Given that he is a christian fundamentalist and extreme xenophobic conservative, I'd say he would be just as willing to attack zionists as he would muslims, or any other class/race/religion of people that are not like him.

It's unfortunate that extremists of islam have taken such center stage in attacking unarmed and innocent men, women and children, that the default assumption to such atrocities was that the perpetrator was muslim.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Samus on 7/22/2011 2:21:43 PM , Rating: 1
Who the hell would attack Norway!?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 3:06:15 PM , Rating: 5
Spineless scumbags


By YashBudini on 7/23/2011 1:10:53 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Spineless scumbags

And this blog is going to get real interesting if it turns out the bombing was caused by a home grown Timothy McVeigh.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 3:43:46 PM , Rating: 2
So does this then invalidate the actions of one of my closest friends who served the Canadian Armed Forces and the UN with distinction in Rwanda/Bosnia/Afghanistan all the while being a practicing Muslim?

How many other such unsung everyday heroes are there that want nothing more than a peaceful and tolerant world for their children to grow up in?

Do the actions of an extremist minority invalidate all peace-loving hard-working Muslims around the world?

Get over your blind hatred already...


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 6:31:44 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Yeah there you go, just call someone a bigot and a racists or hatemonger and then you don't have to deal with the problems anymore. It's much easier to attack someone than discuss things that make you uncomfortable.

Pot meet kettle.

Do you know anyone who uses this technique more than you? And when the list was presented you looked down your nose and dismissed it. Apparently you think you're wearing the same Teflon as Reagan.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/11, Rating: 0
By YashBudini on 7/23/2011 12:28:38 PM , Rating: 2
Good thing you "don't even read my posts."

Bad thing - the general deflection of the question.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Fritzr on 7/23/2011 11:03:00 AM , Rating: 4
The killers were Norwegian Neo-Nazis. You declare your own bias by saying that rabid anti-islamists committed serious acts of terrorism because of cartoons published years ago defaming the prophet of a religion hated by Neo-Nazis

quote:
Yeah there you go, just call someone a bigot and a racists or hatemonger and then you don't have to deal with the problems anymore. It's much easier to attack someone than discuss things that make you uncomfortable.


We are seeing a similar problem in US. Our constitution supposedly guarantees freedom of worship, yet a recent news article adds yet another town to the list of places where law abiding American citizens cannot build a house of worship because they are not Christians.

Something needs to be done about these radical Christians who work daily to oppress their neighbors both directly and through control of the government. Norway at least has much less of this problem. While the lack of trouble in Norway made it easier for Norwegian Neo-Nazis to carry out a terrorist attack, you must remember that in addition to the homicide rate being very low, the number of attacks by domestic terrorists (known as violent protest if it occurs in US) is also so low as to be almost invisible normally.

For the record I am Christan and do oppose the takeover of US by Christian Fundamentalists.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 12:19:15 AM , Rating: 4
Nothing sudden at all about the Christian Religious Right who have been working for many decades to control the US Government. The Republican Party even made the Christian Fundamentalist Republicans a major controlling factor in choosing candidates.

When a US politician wants votes he makes sure to stress the Christian values he will bring to the office and enforce by the authority he wants the voters to grant. There have been Moslems seated in Congress despite this mainstream bias and there will be others in the future, but the Religious Right as the Fundamentalist Christian political movement is known is and will continue to try to place Fundamentalist Christians in controlling positions with the expectation that they will be able to impose Christian Church law on the US. The Defense of Marriage Act is but one example of Christian law imposed on non-Christians.

You request for links starts with this former CEO of Godfather's Pizza announcing that he wants to be President of the United States.
http://news.yahoo.com/herman-cains-perplexing-mosq...
Another take linked in that news item
http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/chuck_currie/2011/07/...

Do you think they will extend this law to cover Christian Canon law as well?
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/04/13/15825...

Do the views of the talk show host reflect the views of the politicians who ask to appear on his show?
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/fischer-agai...

What would your reaction be if it was a Christian church and Moslem neighbors?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16095716/ns/us_news-li...

The Texas state government has decided that it is within their power to determine what information about religion may be printed in textbooks. Their complaint boils down to: not pro-Christian enough.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11402606

This report tries to be evenhanded including mention of support in some cases by Christian churches as well as other religions in one case where Moslem Americans wanted a house of worship of their own.
http://www.amren.com/news/news04/03/10/mosqueprote...

And of course Bridgewater is in compliance with Federal law forbidding the use of zoning to ban religious construction. It is just a coincidence that the proposed mosque site is not on one of the main roads available for construction of houses of worship under the new ordinance passed after the permit was requested :P
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20110315/NJ...


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 5:10:27 PM , Rating: 1
So I can't condemn Muslim murderers as long as you can cite a similar example of Christians? Is that the game we're playing here?

It's getting old Iaiken. I get that your Liberal sensibilities are being offended with this subject matter, but quite honestly, you can just get over it.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 5:38:54 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
So I can't condemn Muslim murderers as long as you can cite a similar example of Christians?


No, you can condemn murderers for their actions, but to likewise condemn either religion for the actions of the murderer is logically bankrupt.

You're starting to bore me with your dancing around sound argument so that you can freely spout hatred...


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ekv on 7/22/2011 6:28:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but to likewise condemn either religion
Pardon me, but while either religion, Christianity and Islam, may appear to have superficial similarities, they are not the same. If this was your argument, then we completely disagree and I'd suggest you study the relevant texts more critically.

For example, "honor killing". No one in Christendom, to the best of my knowledge, advocates nor condones it. Yet, in Islam, how many thousands of women are killed per year?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50128.htm

Similarly for terrorism. Where do you see Ayatollahs outraged against terrorist acts?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/24/2011 11:31:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Honor killing is neither in the Quran nor is it specified in any hadith.


Funny, even your link specifically cites what I've already seen from having read these writings out of scholastic interest.

Honor killing is not in the Qur'an and numerous scholars have argued that it is a corruption of the teachings by past clerics that took root. In more progressive nations of Muslim majority; Turkey, UAE, Morocco, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, and others the practice is banned under the same penalty as any other murder. Most of these nations are also constitutional democracies that allow for progressive social change towards equality.

It's also no wonder that in most of the above nations, women have equal rights or at least get to vote, the literacy rates are above 90%, the average degree of education is equivalent to a high school education and while not rich, they do not live in poverty. Meanwhile in nations like Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Saudi, Afghanistan, the literacy rates hover around 50% (usually split along gender lines) and women do not get to vote nor have access to education. Most of these are authoritarian Islamic states that do not allow for social change towards equality for women.

Educated Muslim nations have largely managed to successfully outlaw the practice and are excellent examples of why Islam itself is not at fault. The fault instead rests entirely on the heads of people like Ayatollah Khomeini who have twisted the teachings and applied them as law to obtain power and suppress the opposition.

quote:
Where do you see Ayatollahs outraged against terrorist acts?


http://lmgtfy.com/

They are all over the place, they just don't get major media coverage because it's more convenient not to dispel the fear that they've built up around Muslims since 9-11.


By ekv on 7/25/2011 2:39:46 AM , Rating: 2
You appear to suggest that I did not read the link I posted. The link says "Honor killing is neither in the Quran nor is it specified in any hadith." But it goes on to detail how and why honor killing is supported by the Quran. Which is my point. It does take some work, but if you will read the texts and understand their fundamentals, you will understand that Christianity and Islam are basically the same, they "only differ on matters of creation, sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation." [Steve Turner]

An acquaintance of mine had work in Morocco [till about a year ago]. As a Christian his visits there were dangerous, to the point of life-threatening. You see, he was born there. If you've read the writings, even merely out of scholastic interest, then you know what happens to converts. I suspect the other countries you list as progressive are similarly not as progressive as you'd have me believe.

Your analysis of "educated Muslim nations" is interesting and I certainly hope that trend continues, despite my expectations to the contrary. But the problem boils down to the text of the Quran -- 'kill the infidel' and all that rot. I doubt Ayatollah Khomeini has twisted the teachings much, if at all. Of course, I disagree with most everything he stands for, but as far as the Quran is concerned I would not dare tangle with his learned interpretation. By what authority do you?

Lastly, your lmgtfy is rather trite. Can't you give at least one specific instance.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 5:41:08 PM , Rating: 5
I think we all condemn these attacks, but to say Islam is evil is reactionary and baseless. The terrorist organizations obviouly are, but the other 1.4 billion Muslims don't seem to be causing this trouble.


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 6:35:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but to say Islam is evil is reactionary and baseless.

Even W made that distinction.

But why do you think the local Machiavelli cares how he achieves his winning "L" on the forehead?


By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 5:34:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Stupid moral relativist ass...


He really is, isn't he? That's the best description of his antics on here yet.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 5:57:38 PM , Rating: 3
Again, you're misrepresenting what I am saying.

My points are not attempts to tar Christendom, but rather to point out that even it has fringe radicals who bomb gay nightclubs and abortion clinics. Citing the christian beliefs that lead them to these reprehensible acts is irrelevant because ultimately they made the personal choice to carry out the act.

Likewise, Islamic Jihad is a joke, the people behind it all are cowards who indoctrinate vulnerable people into carrying out these attacks for them. This "elite vanguard" as Zawahiri called it, is nothing more than a group of hate filled individuals that prey upon the desperation and the hopelessness around them.

The vast majority of Muslims just want to put food on the table for their families. In North America, they put gas in the car, goes to work, takes care of their family, goes to the movies and loves their country just like everyone else. This is why I don't see where the amount of fear being spread by the media and the government is warranted.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By KoS on 7/22/2011 6:11:01 PM , Rating: 5
Iaiekn, you may want review what you have been saying, especially in regards to a few posters. I think you were misrepresenting what they were saying as well.

The use of McVeigh as an example for a "Christian" bomber was a attempt in tarring all Christians. Which isn't any different than using this bombing in Oslo as an attempt to tar all Muslims for actions of a few in their community.

I wouldn't call Islamic Jihad a joke. I double dog dare you to insult a fundmentalist to their face and see if they would turn the other cheek. I bet they wouldn't turn the other cheek. I would even go as far as to say, they wouldn't let you live too long after the insult.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 12:21:44 AM , Rating: 2
American abortion clinics as one well documented example of US domestic terrorism.

Christian bombers
Christian assassins
Maybe we should toss the Christians out :P


By KoS on 7/25/2011 2:39:31 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct. But McVeigh wasn't a Christian bomber , doing it in the name of God. Unlike the others


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 6:21:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Muslims have carried out at least 17000 terror attacks in the name of Islamic Jihad resulting in one or more deaths since September 11, 2001.


How many innocent Iraqis have been killed from 2001-present?
You tell us who has the higher innocent body count.


By ekv on 7/22/2011 6:37:50 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
How many innocent Iraqis have been killed from 2001-present?
Killed by who? Yeah, yeah, you want to say "It's Bush's fault" and American soldiers kill only innocent people. I get it. But don't trust Hollywood to inform your opinion on which side is committing the greater atrocities. Sunni dominated Iraq is considered Dar al-harb by Shiite dominated Iran.


By Captain Orgazmo on 7/22/2011 6:41:49 PM , Rating: 2
150,000 at least, the vast majority killed by Sunni groups like AQI (with Iraqi, Syrian, Saudi, Yemeni, and Libyan members), or Iranian backed Shi'ite militias. These attacks are included in the 17,487 to date. But you won't believe that because Mohammed on his magic camel is the first and last word on all fact and knowledge, right?


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:04:14 PM , Rating: 4
We'll never really know how many since we never kept count. And why weren't they counted? Because W valued their human rights so much?

I'd just like to know if the number is more than 2800. How long did we bomb them for before we sent any troops in?

Let the rationalizations continue.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Manch on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 10:46:15 PM , Rating: 2
For you to infer we have perfect aim, well that speaks for itself.

In case you didn't notice some have died from friendly fire in this fight, so there goes your suggestion that our aim is perfect.

But please, allow your self righteousness to continually overcome reality. We all need a reason to giggle.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/11, Rating: 0
By YashBudini on 7/23/2011 12:24:05 PM , Rating: 3
Apparently you don't understand the difference between murder and manslaughter, both are crimes.

Very doubtful the families of the dead care if the death was intentional or not.

An absurd position. <---- Yours.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Manch on 7/25/2011 9:12:47 AM , Rating: 1
No I didnt infer that our aim is perfect. You however, inferred we were over there killing innocents in the same vein that terrorists do. So dont deflect and twist this into something about perfect aim.

It's easy for people like you to sit their in judgement while having no idea what actually goes on over their. You soak up all that biased bullshit media, then regurgitate it tossing blanket decrees at anyone and everyone. I'm fully aware of the price paid on both sides so dont spit your moral high ground shit at me.

People have died from friendly fire, civilians have died in the cross fire, but many many more have died from the ruthlesness of insurgents and terrorists.

Several soldiers have died protecting the innocent from those who do not value life or the rights of others. If you had any fucking clue, you would understand that civillian casualties while they will happen in something as dirty as war, they are never acceptable and we try to avoid it at all costs. No soldier wants that blood on their hands.

So again, go fuck yourself.


By YashBudini on 7/25/2011 7:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No soldier wants that blood on their hands.

Of course not, they're human, they're in it up to their necks, and I never mentioned or implied it was a breeze for soldiers.

Leaders however are a different story. Leaders on both sides here didn't sent their own kids into war, they were only willing to sacrifice other others. That should offend you.

I feel sorry for you whether or not you can make that distinction.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Hyperion1400 on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
By Captain Orgazmo on 7/22/2011 6:50:08 PM , Rating: 1
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

I will not defend any of those groups or entities you mention, but at this point in human history, Fundamentalist Islam is the most violent group. Your apologist logic is equivalent to a murderer saying he's innocent because look how many other people murder other people.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 6:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately, compartmentalization like this makes for a broken analogy.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Hyperion1400 on 7/22/2011 7:11:42 PM , Rating: 2
My point is not to say it is okay(projection much, or maybe composition, either way, you are certainly enacting some serious defense mechanisms...not you clown, you've been pretty cool throughout this whole shpeel); I find all of these acts unspeakable, abhorrent, and an affront to God, thrice for those who do it in his name.

My point, is that it is closed minded and extremely selfish to point out the transgressions of others and their kin whilst ignoring your own and those of your kin(The son shall inherit the sins of his father shall he not?)


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 7:44:17 PM , Rating: 2
My post was meant to say that equating the actions of a sole murderer to 1.5 billion people isn't how an analogy works. It wasn't in response to your post.


By Captain Orgazmo on 7/22/2011 11:06:13 PM , Rating: 2
I never once claimed that 1.5 billion muslims are responsible for anything or even have any bad intentions. We (the West) are in a war with a ideology in direct competition with Western Secular Democracy.

This competitive ideology is called at turns "fundamentalist-", "radical-", "militant-", "political", or whatever-Islam, or Islamism. In reality it is just plain Islam that at its core shares very few values with us of the West.

Of the 1.5 billion Muslims, the majority don't take the Koran literally, or feel compelled to wage Jihad, simply they were born into Islam, and couldn't care less about conquering the Infidels, etc. However a growing percentage (around 10-20%) feel sympathetic to the cause of those that we call terrorists. Of those, only a tiny minority will actually act on their beliefs.

The people most responsible for spreading this fanaticism is the House of Saud in Arabia, spending an estimated $2 trillion USD over the last 40 years on establishing an international network of madrassas to indoctrinate the impoverished youth of the muslim world. And who supports the House of Saud?...


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By AliShawkat on 7/22/2011 9:25:58 PM , Rating: 1
Hey numnut do you know most of those attacks where on their own fellow Muslim people? Does that make any sense?


By Captain Orgazmo on 7/22/2011 10:50:02 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, the vast majority were indeed Muslim killing Muslim. It is certainly senseless. It seems the bloodiest conflicts in the world are civil wars or sectarian violence (different religious groups fighting to prove they follow the true word of said religion).

Regardless of motives or targets, Islamic terror groups are unquestionably the most numerous and the most destructive in the world at this point in time. You decide why.


By ztrand on 7/23/2011 3:30:58 AM , Rating: 2
From 1980 to 2005 6% of the terrorist attacks carried out on u.s. soil were by islamists. 94% was not. On e.u. soil 0.6% was by islamists. What was your point again?


By JediJeb on 7/22/2011 6:08:45 PM , Rating: 2
In reading that article it sounds more like someone who happened to be involved with World Vision was in a political fight with the Monk and those in their congress who happened to follow him. I didn't really read anything there that says someone murdered him simply because he wasn't a Christian, but there is a lot of political intrigue going on behind the scenes there.

By your reasoning in citing this event it could also be said that the Democratic Party is a terrorist organization because its most prominent member is friends with William Ayers, someone who in the past planted bombs as an act of protest. Being a member of World Vision does not make someone a Christian, their actions more or less would prove that they are not Christian no matter what they might claim to be.


By DougF on 7/22/2011 8:26:13 PM , Rating: 2
Prove it. No one knows who killed him. Maoists claimed responsibility, police aren't sure. Do even read the articles you cite?


By ekv on 7/22/2011 11:33:33 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting ... except if you read the article and the links you find

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/killers-of-la...

Maosists admitted to the crime. Evangelical Christians simply have no reason to do anything like what's suggested. Even if they did, and that's a big IF , the Bible does not suggest (let alone authorize) such a course of action. "Conversion" is not at gun-point but rather through logical argument (ie. preaching) and by deed.

Lastly if you knew anything about or had any dealings with World Vision you'd realise they're only about a step up from milquetoast. [Their only motivation is the Gospel.]


By ztrand on 7/23/2011 2:47:36 AM , Rating: 1
Can you shut up now? The bomber/shooter was right-wing, just like you. God i am so tired of you and your lunatic friends.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By LRonaldHubbs on 7/23/2011 9:51:34 AM , Rating: 2
I like how just a few days ago you were the one who responded to the Murdoch article saying to wait for facts before jumping to conclusions. And now here you are ignoring your own advice. Not that I'm surprised; you do this all the time, as has been repeatedly pointed out by others. This is but another example of your hypocrisy.


By LRonaldHubbs on 7/23/2011 9:55:49 AM , Rating: 2
Proof of my claims:

"I'm just saying, let's wait for some facts before assuming foul play happened here."
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22194...

"I just prefer to see the facts before I make a conclusion. Neither you or I were at the scene of the crime or are qualified to pronounce cause of death, after all."
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22194...

So you waited for the facts here too, right? Or are you saying that you were at the scene of the crime, or qualified are to determine who was behind the attack. What, none of the above? Gotcha.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Jeffk464 on 7/22/2011 2:14:28 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah I'm sure it was a Norwegian separatist group, idiot.


By kraeper on 7/22/2011 5:35:56 PM , Rating: 2
I'm with you, but shockingly, that might be the case. The coward who shot at the kids is a Norwegian.

I was perfectly happy to jump on an anti-islamic bandwagon as well, because historically that's a very safe bandwagon to ride on. But, we might all be wrong this time.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By MrTeal on 7/22/2011 1:58:22 PM , Rating: 2
Because if bombing the government isn't evil enough for you, there's always trying to murder children.

quote:
Meanwhile, several people were killed during a shooting at a youth camp outside Oslo, local media reported.

A man dressed in a police uniform opened fire at youths during the annual gathering of the government’s Labour Party youth section at Utøya, an island outside Oslo, spokesman Per Gunnar Dahl said. Several people were injured.

Unconfirmed reports suggested panicked teenagers tried to escape the gunfire by swimming to the mainland. Some 700 people, mostly between the ages of 14 and 18, were attending the camp.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 6:57:19 PM , Rating: 5
They think the shooter is a Norwegian with possible ties to neo-nazi groups.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/22/2011 2:06:08 PM , Rating: 3
First, my heart goes out to the people of Norway. This is a horrible tragedy and the people responsible should be brought to justice, if possible.

Secondly, in response to your opinion:
FUNDAMENTALISM is root of this evil, not any one particular religion. Be it fundamentalist Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc. Once you accept the premise that people who don't believe like you are going to hell and your belief automatically qualifies you for heaven, you have a free ticket to do all sorts of evil upon others.

Further, many religious books like the Bible and the Koran support murdering people of other religions if you interpret them literally (the definition of fundamentalism).

For example, people say "take the Bible literally". Well what about the rules of Deuteronomy (New Internation Version)?

........

Deuteronomy 2 [Moses]

“Set out now and cross the Arnon Gorge. See, I have given into your hand Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, and his country. Begin to take possession of it and engage him in battle. 25 This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you.”
...
The LORD said to me, “See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land.”

Deuteronomy 7

The LORD will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. 16 You must destroy all the peoples the LORD your God gives over to you. Do not look on them with pity and do not serve their gods, for that will be a snare to you.

17 You may say to yourselves, “These nations are stronger than we are. How can we drive them out?” 18 But do not be afraid of them; remember well what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt. 19 You saw with your own eyes the great trials, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and outstretched arm, with which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples you now fear. 20 Moreover, the LORD your God will send the hornet among them until even the survivors who hide from you have perished. 21 Do not be terrified by them, for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a great and awesome God. 22 The LORD your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you. 23 But the LORD your God will deliver them over to you, throwing them into great confusion until they are destroyed.

Deuteronomy 13

If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[b] both its people and its livestock . 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the LORD your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

.......................

It doesn't matter whether it's Christians or Islams. Fundamentalist religion is a dangerous and ignorant philosophy to embrace. Look at all the "Christian" biggots who murdered gays or lynched blacks; or Timothy McVeigh who murdered innocents in what he believed to be his faith.

The belief that religious texts are 100 percent literal and that you are specially entitled to the afterlife and others to hell is perhaps the most harmful plague on humanity today.

Among all religions -- Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. -- there are a large amount of believers who follow a non-fundamentalist faith, and believe that the true point of religion is love and peace, not hell, hate, and war.

The scourge of fundamentalism is compounded in the Middle East by oppression, poverty, and lack of education. Most fundamentalist Christians today wouldn't go killing people as they enjoy relative freedoms, are rich by Middle Eastern standards, and at least finish high school.

If the above were not true, I wouldn't be surprised if Christian extremists became terrorists at a higher rate.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 2:19:25 PM , Rating: 1
Nice try Jason. But there is one HUGE distinction between Christianity and Islam. Christians believe they will be judged by God after they die. Muslims believe THEY are empowered to carry out "gods will" against others while here on Earth. For example both religions consider adultery to be a sin. However one religions believes you should atone for it, while the other believes that gives them the right to stone people to death or punish them by whipping them over it. Can you guess which one does the latter?

Secondly, no Christians that I've ever heard of actually apply anything of the Old Testament to their everyday lives. I don't meant to offend any Christians here, but it's almost like the Old Testament doesn't even matter anyway. So using those passages seem less then genuine or fair.

I attended hundreds of Catholic masses when I was younger and was forced to go to church, and not ONCE was the Old Testament read or spoken of. It's barely even referred to at all. Claiming there is some sect of violent murdering "fundamentalist" Christians out there is just NUTS! Are you serious?

I think your Liberal sensibilities prohibit you from admitting one religion is "worst" than the other. But comparing Christianity to Islam is just offensive to our intelligence.

Back on topic, millions of works of art and depictions/cartoons of god and Jesus have been done throughout the ages, and most of it not very flattering to say the least. Hell Jesus is even a active character on South Park. But do you notice that no Christians go around blowing up buildings or murdering others over it? Just ponder that, if you will.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 2:32:47 PM , Rating: 3
Umm doesn't the IRA want England out of their country? What exactly about that screams "Christian terrorists" to you? Are the English the "infidels" or something?

Again, my point is not to say that no Christians can be terrorists. But do you seriously how blinders on THAT much that you can't tell there is a very disturbing difference between them and Muslim extremists?

By the way, I'm American. Forgive me if I have a different viewpoint. But I don't remember the IRA attacking us on 9-11.

I will never forget. Ever.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 2:41:39 PM , Rating: 3
I'm pretty sure the Muslims just wanted us out of their country/business as well, since they said it like a million times and warned us to leave, but don't let the double standard stop you.

Catholics and Christians had their periods of insanity, if you actually read a history book. Muslims were the enlightened ones for a very long time, promoting education and learning.

You can't win a war on abstract concepts like terror. You might as well wage a war on jealousy or pride.

3000 people died in the attack, meanwhile MILLIONS of people die from starvation, drunk driving, cancer and so on. Remind me again which one is the real problem?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 2:49:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm pretty sure the Muslims just wanted us out of their country/business as well, since they said it like a million times and warned us to leave, but don't let the double standard stop you.


If you believe that is why they are doing this, you're terribly misinformed. Also, the Norwegians aren't IN the Middle East, so explain this one genius?

quote:
3000 people died in the attack, meanwhile MILLIONS of people die from starvation, drunk driving, cancer and so on. Remind me again which one is the real problem?


Umm, all of the above?


By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 3:53:47 PM , Rating: 1
They could give a damn about us if we leave them alone. We have been messing with the middle east for decades. There are documents from the 70s clearly stating that we wanted to try to stabilize the region due to the resource deposits. Sure it makes sense, but you can't just kill some of them and not expect backlash. You have two choices, leave them the hell alone or destroy them, there is no in between.

The problem with wars where you kill and injure large numbers of people but leave the offspring be after is they grow up loathing you cause you killed their family. It doesn't matter if you were right, justified or even if it makes sense, they will hate you. That hate wells up to hopelessness, they have no way to beat us with a military, so they respond the only way they can, with guerrilla tactics.

They are people you freaking tool, just like the rest of us. It isn't like they are some alien species, it isn't us versus them. They are poorly educated thanks to a regime we put into power and promoted. The leaders we trusted to run this country did this and now we act like it is all their fault. You can't create a monster then get mad at the monster when it runs amok, you made it happen.

And really, all of the above huh? We have had one major attack by Islamic terrorists, that isn't what anyone calls an epidemic. That isn't a major issue. What kind of nut job conniptions would you people go into if we actually got attacked by a military force? Jeez. I love how America is above all wrong doing cause we live here. Face it, our leaders suck and most of us just want to live, raise families and so on, not fight wars in foreign countries and bother people. If we want resources, just take them and quit trying to play like we are heroes for doing it.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By aharris02 on 7/22/2011 4:10:45 PM , Rating: 1
His point is this:

If we were to throw $1.2Trillion (and our economy) at a problem, which of the above are we most likely to make an impact on?

Terrorism is similar to freedom in that they are both ideas which, when an individual strongly believes, cannot be conquered.

I believe we should defend our interests, I see value in removing the Taliban and Hussein from power, yet I assure you that we could have done a whole lot for the world, including the muslim community, if we spent that same $1.2T on feeding starving familes instead of waging a war on an idea.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By KoS on 7/22/2011 6:29:34 PM , Rating: 2
It's not America's duty or responsiblity to feed to world.

America is already one of the biggest donators(public and private) of food and money to the world community. We do way more than our fair share already.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 8:10:01 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
America is already one of the biggest donators(public and private) of food and money to the world community. We do way more than our fair share already.


We are also the biggest warmongers in the world. We destroy the most and kill the most of any nation. We also profit the most from death. I hardly think some money for donating food absolves us of that. Let's not pretend we are some super awesome nation that helps everyone out, we look out for our interests and throw weapons/training at any country we think will attack our enemy. If you want examples, look at Israel or Al Queda.


By KoS on 7/25/2011 2:52:22 PM , Rating: 2
Gzus...stay in context and don't put words in people's mouth. No where did I mention anything about being absolved of anything by our actions. Just pointing out we already donate enough vs. using a trillion dollars on food.

Does that makes us awesome? No! But I would argue, even with all our faults. The US on the scale of good-evil, leans towards the good. More so than alot of other countries.

If know, the above comment will drive you and others crazy!! Which is good. :)

As I posted elsewhere in this thread, that nations do things in their own self-interest. There is nothing wrong with it.

We kill the most people of any nation? Really? Have we killed as many people as in the cultural revolution in China? As many as the Nazis did? As many as Pol-Pot did? As many as in Soviet revolutions?


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:08:36 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Catholics and Christians had their periods of insanity,

Had? You thinking pedophile priests are a thing of the past? You should read more news from Ireland. And with that horrendous crime they've managed not to addressed any of the enablers, the ones who criminally facilitated the pedophiles by moving them silently from one parish to another.

The one good thing about religion is how


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:11:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Catholics and Christians had their periods of insanity,

Had? You thinking pedophile priests are a thing of the past? You should read more news from Ireland. And with that horrendous crime the "Christians" managed not to addressed any of the enablers, the ones who criminally facilitated the pedophiles by moving them silently from one parish to another.

The one good thing about religion is how quickly you can spot the extremists, they're the ones that say, "God is on our side" not "we are on God's side."


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 2:46:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't remember the dead civilians in Iraq attacking the US on 9-11 either.


Oh of course you had to go there. It wouldn't be an Iaiken post without a Liberal talking point thrown in.

quote:
Again, you with the blinders on...


Do you somehow construe my posts to mean I'm in someway supporting what the IRA does? Let's clear this up right now before we go any further.

But okay, for arguments sake, I denounce both the Christian Terrorist group known was the IRA and all Islamic terrorist groups equally. Does that work for you?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 3:32:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Do you somehow construe my posts to mean I'm in someway supporting what the IRA does? Let's clear this up right now before we go any further.


I was merely pointing out the double standard of you being able to separate Christian terrorists from Christianity, but unable to Islamic terrorists from Islam.

Think about it.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 4:31:47 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, Christians do it too:

Irish Republican Army (United Kingdom)
National Liberation Front of Tripura (India)
Klu Klux Klan (USA)
Lancieri (Romania)
Manmasi National Christian Army (India)
The Iron Guard (Romania)
Lord's Resistance Army (Uganda)

The 2002 Soweto bombings were carried out by individuals under motivation to preserve the "Christian Identity" and their "right to rule".

Numerous abortion clinics have been bombed and doctors murdered by Christians that were upset with the practice in Canada, the US and other nations.

Even the preaching of hell is unto itself a form of terrorism used to inspire fear into people so that they will be good little Christians.

The real disparity lies in that there are simply more Muslims trapped in desperate situations than there are Christians. People who aren't desperate, simply don't resort to desperate measures, hence the numerical disparity. This also makes it easier for groups like al queda to prey upon that desperation.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 4:37:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Even the preaching of hell is unto itself a form of terrorism used to inspire fear into people so that they will be good little Christians.


*rolls eyes*

Oh boy, looks like someone's true colors are showing.

I find it ironic that you preach tolerance and accuse me of a double standard, when it's clear your anti-Christian nature is the true beating heart behind your arguments.

You disgusting bigot. :P


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 4:43:54 PM , Rating: 2
Stop playing like you are this stupid, the implication was fear and using it to control people, that is the definition of terrorism. His points were clear, concise and correct.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 4:54:28 PM , Rating: 1
There is no "control through fear" in Christianity. Only a Liberal idiot would try and make that point. Especially one trying to call it a form of "terrorism". Give me a break, guy.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 5:03:44 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, saying you will go to hell and suffer eternal damnation unless you follow someone is called control through fear, that is textbook.

You seem to be under the misconception that they only way to control someone is through physical threats and not mind manipulation when the latter is quite a bit more effective.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 5:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yes, saying you will go to hell and suffer eternal damnation unless you follow someone is called control through fear, that is textbook.


You can't make someone believe in a hell, Gzus, nor can you convince people there is a god in the sky. It's a personal journey. It's called faith.


By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 5:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can't make someone believe in a hell, Gzus, nor can you convince people there is a god in the sky. It's a personal journey. It's called faith.


Tell that to the millions of brainwashed children. It is called indoctrination and it is very common. It is the same crap the Islamist extremists do, just to a less radical extent. There is a reason why Bin Laden didn't ever do any of the attacks even though he claimed to believe in that garbage so deeply. He brainwashed others to do it for him.

Put the religious extremists of any faith in a hopeless environment and you will see their true colors. The fix is to educate and stop the indoctrination. If they see hope, they will stop following the path of the hopeless. While warmongering may seem the best path, it costs us more to do that than to just educate them and throw some food their way.


By delphinus100 on 7/22/2011 11:56:51 PM , Rating: 2
Most people accept the religion they were raised in, they don't come to it a blank slate, like impartially deciding what car to buy. (indeed, your family may slant that decision, too)

If they question it at all, it's usually not until adolescence or adulthood. If they don't question it, then they simply do unto the next generation as was done unto them...


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By jjmcubed on 7/22/2011 5:50:20 PM , Rating: 2
Why do you put liberal in everything you put down? If you don't agree with someone they must be liberal?


By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 5:59:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why do you put liberal in everything you put down? If you don't agree with someone they must be liberal?


That's just his modus operandi, you get used to it...


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 10:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you don't agree with someone they must be liberal?

That's how he elevates himself. He also thinks he can fight socialism by being anti-social.


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 6:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is no "control through fear" in Christianity.

Are you kidding? Catholics send people to hell just for playing with themselves.
quote:
Only a Liberal idiot...

Translation: I have no facts to work with.

And how many times today alone have you called someone an idiot? And all because they don't agree with you, and yet you claim you're not an elitist, all while looking down your nose at everyone else.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 4:48:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I find it ironic that you preach tolerance and accuse me of a double standard, when it's clear your anti-Christian nature is the true beating heart behind your arguments.


Incorrect and I reject your assertion. I personally couldn't care what someone believes and I've friends that are Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim. I value each based on who they are and what they believe in and the fact that I find the idea of love under threat of eternal damnation to be moral repugnant doesn't enter into it.

Likewise I find you to be a repugnant bigot for your blind hatred of almost a quarter of the people on earth because they happen to be Muslim.

F*** you very much.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 5:02:25 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Likewise I find you to be a repugnant bigot for your blind hatred of almost a quarter of the people on earth because they happen to be Muslim.


LOL you keep trying to make that stick, don't you? Political correctness and race-baiting. The tried and true toolkit for the Liberal ideologue.

quote:
I've friends that are Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim.


Yeah and I don't. I live in a trailer in the swamp with the rest of my white 'Klan buddies. Tonight we're gonna go drag a nigger behind our trucks and go cow tipping. Y'wanna come?? *spits tobacco chew*

Thank you Iaiken for your enlightened world view about all things. Once again, we can only hope to aspire to be as good and googly of a person as you.

quote:
F*** you very much.


Showing everyone that I hit a nerve AND you're immature all in one fell swoop. Man, you have a gift.


By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 1:05:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Yeah and I don't. I live in a trailer in the swamp with the rest of my white 'Klan buddies. Tonight we're gonna go drag a nigger behind our trucks and go cow tipping. Y'wanna come?? *spits tobacco chew*


@Reclaimer77
Since there actually are people like that in the US, then by your own argument you have described yourself correctly even though you considered it to be sarcasm :P


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:16:58 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I value each based on who they are and what they believe in and the fact that I find the idea of love under threat of eternal damnation to be moral repugnant doesn't enter into it.

In his eyes that's a complete case for being anti-American, despite the "melting pot" nickname. You are hereby condemned to be beneath an idiot, and therefore being called idiot is actually raising your status.

Now don't just sit there, you're suppose the kiss the king's ring and beg forgiveness.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2011 11:45:41 AM , Rating: 2
This post is why I say you make ad-hominem attacks. You don't discuss the issues, you mostly discuss other posters you don't like. Yes, I call people idiots or whatever, but it's in the context of discussing the ISSUE!

Count how many posts you made on this article that have NOTHING to with the discussion, but are about me or someone else.

You make ad-hominem attacks because you don't even try to beat someone on the issue. You just make drive-by posts that do nothing but exclusively attack someone else on here. That's the definition of ad-hominem attacks.

attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad+hominem

That's you Yash. You don't make arguments, you just attack the person and nothing more.


By YashBudini on 7/23/2011 12:13:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This post is why I say you make ad-hominem attacks.


But mine are
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fact


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/23/2011 1:23:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This post is why I say you make ad-hominem attacks.

Uh, just because the post lets others know what you're like doesn't make it an attack, it makes it a warning.

Thick skinned one second, thin skinned the next. Such a drama queen.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2011 2:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
You have devoted a considerable amount of posts lately trying to accuse me of hypocrisy and defending against my ad-hominem label. I'm simply explaining to you why I say what I say, and why you're wrong. You can call me an idiot or whatever all you want, just do it on topic. But for some reason you're almost exclusively unable to discuss the argument at hand. You just go after the person.

But thank you for the PSA. All you need is a "The More you Know" splash-screen 1980's style and you're all set :)


By YashBudini on 7/23/2011 5:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can call me an idiot or whatever all you want, just do it on topic.

I would never call you an idiot. You label yourself far better than I ever could.

You post is off topic by the way.

</shrug>


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By MrTeal on 7/22/2011 2:29:43 PM , Rating: 2
Not to disagree with most of your points, but I have a hard time believing you've attended hundreds of Catholic masses and you've never heard from the Old Testament. Almost every Catholic mass I've attended in many different churches has had at least one reading from the OT. If nothing else there's usually a Psalm per mass.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 2:36:27 PM , Rating: 2
Well I was doing a lot of drugs back then cause I hated Mass so much. But I think I stand by my assertion that the Old Testament isn't really that big of a deal to Christians. The main event seems to be the teachings and life of Jesus Christ, is it not?

But someone tell me, are the passages Jason quoted really something Christians read over the New Testament?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 3:27:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But someone tell me, are the passages Jason quoted really something Christians read over the New Testament?


This is what you don't seem to understand... Someone looking for justification would simply find the verses that support their agenda, twist it or re-intemperate it to their liking and off they go.

A fundamentalist cherry picks passages that support their personal ideology, they give them greater weight than other parts that dispute or override them or simply disregard later writings as apologist or impure. Then, armed with these "words of god" they go out and do what they please, pleased in their being justified by their interpretation of the religion they so cherish.

What allows Islamic fundamentalism to thrive is that most people don't have a chance to read the passages themselves. Instead the clerics in nations like Afghanistan/Iran/Syria and Egypt (in the past) were the gatekeepers of the scripture. What people learned was not a personal relationship with the religion, but the pre-interpreted message coming from the priest.

Read up on a man called Sayyid Qutb and you can basically trace the history of Islamic extremism to a man that was later tortured and executed by the Egyptian government. The torture was what radicalized him, it became his opinion that the Egyptian government had become corrupted by the west and that this corruption was spreading to the Muslim population. He then argued that the only solution was the formation of a clerical government that would apply the teachings of Islam as law in order to save the population.

While in prison, he was allowed to write and so his hateful ideas were able to survive his death. One of the disciples he chose to write to was Ayman al-Zawahiri. Zawahiri would go on to become the leader of the Islamist movement, but would wind up being exiled from Egypt after planning the successful assassination of President Sadat.

It was his hope that the assassination would shock the Egyptian people into demanding an Islamist state government, but nothing happened. Instead, he was arrested, jailed and tortured like his mentor had been. During this time, he took Qutbs interpretation one step further. He then argued that the reason the people hadn't risen up was because they were irredeemably corrupted and were therefore also the enemy.

After his exile, he answered the fatwa in Afghanistan where he would become mentor to Osama bin Laden. His ideas would then go on to shape the Taliban's hard-line Islamist government views. Ironically, the Taliban that wound up taking over Afghanistan was largely composed of Syrians, Egyptians, Iranians, and other expatriates. Instead of being ruled by Soviet foreigners, the Afghan people found themselves ruled by the Islamist foreigners that were in possession of most of the weapons from the war.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/22/2011 4:23:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is what you don't seem to understand


When mass amounts of muslims believe that a woman should be stoned to death for adultery, the problem isn't the west. It is an entrenched ideology that needs to have light shed on it, not excused "cause those uneducated brown people don't know no better."


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 4:40:29 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
When mass amounts of muslims believe that a woman should be stoned to death for adultery, the problem isn't the west.


I've been to several semi-developed nations UAE, Saudi, Turkey where the majority of people were Muslim and educated and this simply wasn't the case. I live near major Muslim communities in Toronto and again, it's simply not the case. I've been to major Muslim communities in Portual and again, this simply wasn't the case. The people were friendly, modern, progressive and Muslim all at the same time... SHOCKING!


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 4:47:04 PM , Rating: 3
So unless 100% of a group does something, that means you don't have a right to speak of it at all?

Are you so Liberal and politically correct that you cannot understand we're not condemning ALL Muslims? Can you just freaking wrap your head around that concept and move on? Please.

We understand it's not like this everywhere. Stop wasting everyone's time with redundant mantras. That fact that it happens ANYWHERE, however, is simply unconscionable.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 5:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That fact that it happens ANYWHERE, however, is simply unconscionable.


And yet you single Muslims out at every single opportunity... THAT is my point. Personally, I find all manner of terrorism and violence to be simply unconscionable. I don't care who engages in it or how, there can be no justification.

The war on terrorism is such a joke to me because America only cared when it happened to them. What about Rwanda? What about Cambodia? What about East Timor? To say that the three thousand people who died on 9-11 are worthy deaths and that the million-plus people who died in those conflicts were don't matter is abhorrent.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 5:19:08 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And yet you single Muslims out at every single opportunity...


Uhh isn't this article and discussion about a recent terrorist attack that was, most likely, committed by a Muslim extremist? So sorry I didn't throw in a "but there are Christian terrorist too" in there for good measure. Would that have made you feel better?

Sheesh man, get off it already. You're just SO politically correct!

quote:
The war on terrorism is such a joke to me because America only cared when it happened to them.


LOL you just can't help yourself from sticking your foot in your mouth and showing us your true motivations for why you're arguing the way you do.

And I love how if we get involved we're Imperialists "policing the world" but if we don't we're just uncaring bastards until it happens to us.

You're painting a picture of yourself for us, and to be honest, it's not very flattering.


By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 6:01:58 PM , Rating: 3
The thing that might be confusing him -

quote:
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?


Not your words, but that is how the discussion started.


By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 6:19:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Uhh isn't this article and discussion about a recent terrorist attack that was, most likely, committed by a Muslim extremist?


Actually, it's starting to look like it was carried out by Norwegian Separatists.

quote:
And I love how if we get involved we're Imperialists "policing the world" but if we don't we're just uncaring bastards until it happens to us.


No, but as soon as it did happen to the US, the rest of the world had to toe the line and help under threat of the US being less co-operative in the future.

But when the UN force commander requested the US send four AWACs to Rwanda before the genocide had even begun in order to run 24/7 radio jamming to prevent hate-speech from saturating the air waves, he was told by the Clinton Administration it was a "black problem" and to not worry about it.

When the killing started and the UN commander requested additional forces, the US went as far as vetoing the UN security council resolution so that they wouldn't have to get involved in an expanded peacekeeping mission in Rwanda. Clinton later admitted that it became a key objective to stay out of Rwanda because of what had happened in Somalia. This despite the fact that the proposed expanded mission was to be made up primarily of Pakistani, Filipino and French troops.

Clinton now lists this as one of the biggest regrets of his presidency and that had he acted differently, nations like France, Germany and Belgium would have probably been more receptive to later US pleas for assistance in Afghanistan.


By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 1:15:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Uhh isn't this article and discussion about a recent terrorist attack that was, most likely, committed by a Muslim extremist? So sorry I didn't throw in a "but there are Christian terrorist too" in there for good measure. Would that have made you feel better?

Actually the article is about a recent terrorist attack that was actually (not most likely) committed by a Christian extremist. Maybe you should be drumming up support for tossing all the Christians out based on the actions of this extremist whose views are reflected by American & European Neo-Nazi Christian Churches that have been operating for decades.

This remark of yours is particularly relevant to your diatribe :)
quote:
LOL you just can't help yourself from sticking your foot in your mouth and showing us your true motivations for why you're arguing the way you do.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By KoS on 7/22/2011 6:21:02 PM , Rating: 2
Why is it America's responsiblilty to get involved in those conflicts? Why didn't Canada step in or any other country didn't step in? I guess Canada and others didn't care enough!!

There is nothing wrong with a country reacting to circumstances that directly affect it. While ignoring others which don't.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/24/2011 12:06:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why didn't Canada step in or any other country didn't step in?


Apparently you don't know how a UN mandated peacekeeping mission works. As soon as the US vetoed the expansion of the mission in the security council any attempt to unilaterally expand the mission would be a breach of the host nations sovereignty and they would be allowed to respond accordingly. Because the US didn't want to be involved, they stomped over any possibility of expanding the mission. They also abstained from all votes to allow other nations to withdraw their peacekeepers.

The US also vetoed all requests by Lieutenant-General Dallaire to authorize the use of force to stop the killings. This basically left the UNAMIR contingent legally powerless to do anything unless they were themselves attacked. So the Canadian soldiers did the only thing left that they could, gathered up Tutsis in large buildings where they could put themselves between the Hutus and the Tutsis. Any attempt to breach the cordon by attacking the Canadians would allow them the use of deadly force.

quote:
I guess Canada and others didn't care enough!!


If you still don't think Canada cared enough after ordering their men to put themselves in harms way to protect the lives of hundreds of thousands of total strangers, then you are a bloody moron. One of my closest friends and his squad-mates stood in the entrance to a stadium, bodily serving as a gate between almost a hundred thousand machete-wielding maniacs and sixty thousand Tutsis. They brought food, water and supplies in by helicopter. Have some respect man, those Soldiers had balls of steel that clanged together when they walked.

Clinton admitted on Frontline that with using these tactics and a force of even just 5500 men, with APC's to ferry food and refugees around, they could have saved over 500,000 lives. Hence his regrets around not heeding LT-GEN Delaires pleas for help.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By KoS on 7/25/2011 3:25:56 PM , Rating: 2
Yes I do....but frankly I could care less about the UN. If it was so important for someone to step in...why didn't they regardless of the UN? It was morally right to step in, correct? Or only the UN deteremines that?

In the end the Canadians didn't do enough? Thousands of people still died, did they not?

Just using the same arguement you would toss at the US if it was in the same boat. I could hear it now, why didn't the US ignore the UN and do the morally right thing. All the US did was stand there, all the US did was protect a small section of society...blah, blah.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/25/2011 3:58:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just using the same arguement you would toss at the US if it was in the same boat. I could hear it now, why didn't the US ignore the UN and do the morally right thing. All the US did was stand there, all the US did was protect a small section of society...blah, blah.


Wrong. I think it's funny that you seem to think you know what I would have done in some asinine hypothetical.

You are either bound by international law or you are not; you don't simply pick and choose which ones you follow and when.

Canada accepted the votes and did the best it could with what it had available to it according to it's UN mandated mission. Had they expanded the mission unilaterally, the majority Hutu's would have rightly taken it as an act of war. Then it really would have been Mogadishu all over again as the Canadian troops would have no longer been off-limits. If that had happened, Canada would have had no choice but to withdraw. Life is full of hard choices, personally, I commend them for not simply cutting and running like the Belgians.

Likewise, I am perfectly fine with the US-Lead mission in Afghanistan against the Taliban. The US asked Canada to provide more troops than Canada asked of the US in Rwanda and Canada obliged. Obliged them in spite of having been stymied by the US in Rwanda and in spite of the request being disproportionately more taxing on the smaller Canadian military than Rwanda would have been to that of the US.

quote:
blah, blah.


You know you right? This is you. :P


By KoS on 7/25/2011 4:41:39 PM , Rating: 2
First...it wasn't asinie...it's based on your past views and comments. So pretty vaild.

Nations always picks and choses which international laws they follow, that is the norm.

Again, if it was morally right thing to do, why wasn't more done? I know, I know, it would have started a war!! So what, if it's right thing to do, then it's the right thing to do regardless the circumstances. Isn't that one of justifications on Libya?

Canada is part of NATO, NATO troops are helping in Afg. There are obligations in being part of NATO. I guess if they don't want help, then so be it. No biggy!

Rwanda mission wasn't NATO. If it had turned into another Mogadishu, that is a weakness on our part. If people act like animals, then you treat them like animals. Problem solved. Alot of times being nice doesn't solve the situation at hand.

We will have to agree to disagree.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 5:48:50 PM , Rating: 2
The Saudis are not modern or progressive, unless you're counting the top 0.5%. They hang homosexuals, lash women for violating curfew or dress codes, and yes, sometimes stone them for adultery.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 5:52:23 PM , Rating: 2
Clownpuncher you're just using that as a reason to freely spout hate toward Muslims!

/sarcasm


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 6:04:15 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe...

I kid. I genuiniely despise the Saudi government. Obviously, there are other Muslim countries with horrible governments, but the Saudis are the only ones who seem to get a free pass.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 1:18:30 AM , Rating: 2
Not a free pass ... Their pass costs them a great deal. Payment is made by support of the US government & industry, both overtly and covertly :)


By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 1:19:40 AM , Rating: 2
Oops--that should have been a reply to Clownpuncher :)


By rikulus on 7/22/2011 2:31:15 PM , Rating: 2
If you never heard a reading from the Old Testament after attending "hundreds of Catholic masses" then you just weren't paying attention. The first reading at EVERY Catholic mass is from the Old Testament.

First reading = Old Testament
Second reading = New Testament
Third reading = Gospel


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By sthayashi on 7/22/2011 3:23:04 PM , Rating: 2
While few Christians apply most of the old testament to their daily lives, quite a number use distorted interpretations of it to justify their behavior and political stances. The Catholic stance on homosexuality and birth control come immediately to mind.

The real issue, imho, is not whether islam is evil or not, but how an uneducated person living in the middle of a war torn country can get the education and money to cross the Baltic sea, acquire enough explosive material to detonate a building, and utilize it properly.

Islam may be the what motivates this individual (or collective), but someone is giving them a lot of time and money.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/22/2011 4:11:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
distorted interpretations of it to justify their behavior and political stances. The Catholic stance on homosexuality


Sin in the Old Testament is still sin in the New Testament. Jesus didn't stop by to say, "Give the world a Coke and a smile, and by the way, from now on, if it feels good, do it!"

I am sure you have other "pithy" comments to make beyond the realm of your understanding, so fire away.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By sthayashi on 7/22/2011 4:50:27 PM , Rating: 2
How are either homosexuality or birth control a sin? Any more so than eating a shrimp or a pig?

And if a sin in the old testament is the same as a sin in the new testament, then quite a number of people have sinned against the lord just by offering communion.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;"
Lev 21:16-20

Consider this "pithy comment" about things "beyond the realm of my understanding" fired.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/22/2011 5:22:35 PM , Rating: 2
If you don't understand what Christ did, then you may not understand. The rules and religous exercises and sacrifices were no longer needed. Jesus was the sacrifice that covered all sins of those that believe in him. You are correct when you take communion it should not be the same as having a dounut with your coffee, but you should prepare through prayer and confession to God for you sins, because we will not be perfect here because we are sinful, but we are cleansed in God's eyes because Jesus takes our place, the perfect lamb of God, who takes all of our sin upon himself. We could go into satification, and justification, but that was the short answer.


By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 1:28:09 AM , Rating: 2
This is the reasoning used by Catholics committing crimes of all types whether secular or religious.

--If I remember to tell the priest at confession it is all forgiven.--

The Catholic Church also invented "indulgences". With this creative idea, Catholics could buy forgiveness.

This is not unique to Catholics, other Christian sects have their own variations on "It's okay because Christ takes all of our sins unto himself"

However none of this sophistry cancels out the fact that Christian Fundamentalists regularly cite the Old Testament as the basis of their right to terrorize anyone not sharing their version of the True Faith.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By BobT on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/11, Rating: 0
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:43:59 PM , Rating: 2
Another instantaneous 1 rating with no swearing or bad words!


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 6:37:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
no Christians that I've ever heard of actually apply anything of the Old Testament to their everyday lives.

Well that explains that. Given how you call everyone an idiot there's no sign you've ever heard anything from anyone.


By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 1:35:07 AM , Rating: 2
Reclaimer77 said:
quote:
Secondly, no Christians that I've ever heard of actually apply anything of the Old Testament to their everyday lives. I don't meant to offend any Christians here, but it's almost like the Old Testament doesn't even matter anyway. So using those passages seem less then genuine or fair.

Uhm, good sir who is so well versed in the Christian Holy Teachings...where are the 10 Commandments to be found?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By MrBlastman on 7/22/2011 2:28:29 PM , Rating: 3
Good points Jason. I must point out though that Deuteronomy is of the Old Testament and is primarily referred to via the Torah in the Jewish relgion. While Christianity is a direct descendant to Judaism and Islam is a direct descent as well (though branched as it is tainted through the wicked blood of Ishmael, the son of Abraham [father of Judaism]).

As such, the Jewish do not believe in the original sin, nor path to salvation through Jesus Christ, lord and savior. In there eyes, he was nothing but a prophet. In the New Testament, I challenge anyone to find hatred or desire to kill man in the teachings of Jesus.

Now, with that said, fundamentalism as you point out is the true enemy to us all. Literalism removes interpretation through our minds--the one and only tool that has enabled man to survive as long as we have.

The minute man stops thinking is the minute mankind starts to become extinct.


By Hyperion1400 on 7/22/2011 7:02:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As such, the Jewish do not believe in the original sin, nor path to salvation through Jesus Christ, lord and savior. In there eyes, he was nothing but a prophet. In the New Testament, I challenge anyone to find hatred or desire to kill man in the teachings of Jesus.


Paul...

Doesn't matter what Jesus taught, it's what people SAY Jesus taught.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JediJeb on 7/22/2011 2:35:17 PM , Rating: 5
I would consider myself a fundamentalist Christian and I can say those are cherry picked verses to prove your point. What you left out, and what also makes someone a Christian is the New Testament, and this verse in particular would completely invalidate what you say about Fundamentalist Christians.

quote:
Matthew 5:43-48

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


This was a warning to people who misinterpreted those scriptures in the Old Testament. Those verses point to defeating others who opposed the Israelite nation even after efforts to make peace with them failed. It would be like telling an American soldier during WW2 that after trying to make peace with the Japanese Empire they are still attacking us then our soldiers should attack and hold nothing back until the enemy is defeated. The opposite of what we told American soldiers during Vietnam where we attacked but don't go too far it might upset others in the region.

Basing any stance on only a small part of the Bible will cause very poor interpretation and lead to false beliefs supporting a cause, which is more the problem than being fundamental in ones beliefs.


By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 2:58:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would consider myself a fundamentalist Christian


You are!? So tell me, how many suicide bombings have you partaken in JediJeb?

/sarcasm


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/22/2011 2:59:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would consider myself a fundamentalist Christian and I can say those are cherry picked verses to prove your point. What you left out, and what also makes someone a Christian is the New Testament, and this verse in particular would completely invalidate what you say about Fundamentalist Christians.

Well, at least you're educated. I think an educated fundamentalist in a free, prosperous society, is far less dangerous than one in an impoverished, oppressive society, like the Middle East.

However, I'd disagree about "cherry picking". Deuteronomy contains the story of Moses, one of the most important Old Testament stories.

You refer to the New Testament disciples' accounts of Jesus, which seemingly contradict the suggestions of violence found in the Old Testament.

My point (which you sort of make), is that you can't/shouldn't take the Bible or other religious texts literally -- or at least you have to dig into the text deeper and develop your own interpretation (not just what the text seems to explicitly suggest). You have clearly done that as you have reasoned that one part of the Bible is valid and one part is no longer valid/doesn't mean what it sounds like it means, as it is overruled by the other part. So in my eyes, you may be partially fundamentalist, but you at least have the beginnings of a non-fundamentalist faith.

Of course I don't think the Bible is actually suggesting violence. I'm just saying if you simplistically and literally interpreted every word of it, you could come to the conclusion that violence is acceptable or even promoted.

I think this is essentially what's going on in Islam today. Now I'll give that the Prophet Mohammed was much more violent and less peace-oriented than Jesus if you read the text, but compared to say Moses in the Old Testament, he's not really all that different -- and neither is the text.

Now if you "put things in the proper context", as you have with the Old Testament, you could come to the conclusion that the Koran isn't really advocating violence in the modern era or killing people.

But if you're a simplistic, literal fundamentalist (pretty easy to be if you're uneducated, impoverished, and oppressed), it's easy to fall into the trap of believing in the apparent violent message of the text.

I think this is what's happening with radical Islamists.

For the record, I consider myself a Christian and find inspiration in the message of Jesus, I just don't believe in literal/simplistic interpretation of all portions of the Bible, I think parts of it were poorly translated, and I don't believe in the suggestion that non-Christians are all going to hell (neither does the Catholic Church, according to Vatican II, though I'm not Catholic...).

....

But at the end of the day, while our views may differ on religion, I think we can both agree that whatever the cause, terrorist attacks and violence are reprehensible and sad.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 3:07:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of course I don't think the Bible is actually suggesting violence. I'm just saying if you simplistically and literally interpreted every word of it, you could come to the conclusion that violence is acceptable or even promoted.


If you read the entire Bible and still come away with the idea that violence is accepted and promoted, I think you have bigger problems than religion. You're straight up nuts.

Also I'm pretty sure those 10 Commandments overrule any obscure Old Testament passage you can dig up.

quote:
For the record, I consider myself a Christian


I think my heart just stopped.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/22/2011 3:14:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think my heart just stopped.

I hope you make it there, bud. :)


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 3:25:44 PM , Rating: 1
Nah I've had too much fun in this life, straight to hell with me. God had his chance with me and he blew it :)

But seriously, how can you say you're a Christian after just dragging your religion through the mud like that? It's boggling.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/22/2011 3:36:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But seriously, how can you say you're a Christian after just dragging your religion through the mud like that? It's boggling.

Again, as you yourself argued, I think the teaching of Jesus (love they neighbor, etc.) are true Christianity.

Parts of The Bible, particularly the Old Testament, shouldn't be taken literally.

Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I have to blindly support people who bastardize it to support hatred, extremism, and bigotry (a la the KKK). Actually I feel that the teachings of Jesus compel me to counter it.

Christians who follow the word of Jesus should be compelled NOT to judge Muslims, lest they be judged and found lacking.

I don't seem to recall Jesus devoting a lot of sermons to how "evil" some religion was. He preached the good things his followers should be DOING, not complained about others.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/22/11, Rating: -1
RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:29:50 PM , Rating: 1
You seem to miss than Mick stated his opinion without ramming it down other people's throats as the truth of all truths. That's more than what his opponent can say.

And did you happen to note how many words you used without saying anything at all? You know what they about people who throw stones.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/24/2011 12:09:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And did you happen to note how many words you used without saying anything at all?


I believe I was pointing out there were clarifying questions to make what he said have any substance.


By YashBudini on 7/25/2011 1:07:12 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, my error.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Iaiken on 7/22/2011 3:37:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But seriously, how can you say you're a Christian after just dragging your religion through the mud like that? It's boggling.


Boggling because he can look upon it critically, see it's flaws and love/accept it anyway? The people who worry me are the ones who argue that there are no flaws and simply accept it on blind faith.


By Celestion on 7/23/2011 11:44:37 AM , Rating: 2
His logic is flawed. If you interpreted the entire Bible literally you would be peaceful. This is simply because the New Testament, if literally interpreted, takes precedence over the old testament. There are no flaws.

Every religion takes blind faith simply because there is no way to verify which one is correct.


By AliShawkat on 7/22/2011 9:29:50 PM , Rating: 1
Ahhh thank you Jason Mick. Someone that actually understands what's going on. Not all hope is lost for people in the USA.


By Celestion on 7/23/2011 11:34:00 AM , Rating: 2
I just said the same thing, only a day later. Wish I had read a little further down.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By geddarkstorm on 7/22/2011 2:44:14 PM , Rating: 1
Jason, Deuteronomy isn't Christianity. Nor is taking it "literally" meaning to kill people. Deuteronomy is about the birthing of the nation of Israel; it's a history book, as any Jew would tell you.

Are we Israelites, former Egyptian slaves, wandering the desert for forty years, and invading the Jordan river area currently populated by Canaanites? No. -That- would be the "literally" meaning of the book. So don't try to pass that off as "Christianity" promoting violence; unless you meet all the criteria above, of course.

Don't forget the "Christ" in Christianity. Anyone calling themselves Christian are supposed to be followers of Christ, and what did Christ command?

John 15:12-13,17 "12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." "17 This is my command: Love each other."

Sure sounds like some murderous hate speech that would precipitate bombing government buildings.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/22/2011 3:13:52 PM , Rating: 1
Islam is being distorted, as it also contains a central message of peace, when you interpret it rationally.

................

And from the Koran and various sermons from Mohammed:

(SM 141) "Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first"

It was said to the Prophet (Muhammad), 'O Messenger of God! Curse the infidels.' Muhammad said, 'I am not sent for this, nor was I sent but as a mercy to mankind. (SM 325) The most excellent Jihad (Holy war) is that for the conquest of the self. (SM 73) Henceforth the vengeance of blood is forbidden. (Sermon on Mt. Arafat, Farewell pilgrimage in 10th year of the Hijra)

Whether Muslim, Jew, Christian. whosoever believes in God and in the Last Day, and does good to others, verily he shall find his reward with the Lord. (Kur'an ii:62)

Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots. (SM 340)

.....

Islam is being bastardized in the name of violence, just like Christianity was bastardized in the name of violence in the Crusades and witch hunts, or the KKK, which considered itself a "Christian" organization and killed people of other races.

Any religion, when selectively interpreted can be twisted to condone violence.

Once you've decided in your heart that you're going to heaven regardless of your actions and that others are going to hell for not believing in your religion, the root of evil has been sewn. Exactly how far your hatred takes you is largely determined by your personal circumstances (i.e. the poor, oppressed, and uneducated are more likely to fall to violence against others).


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 3:21:21 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Islam is being distorted, as it also contains a central message of peace


There is an underlying subtext that you are either not aware of or are intentionally ignoring. Islam does indeed preach peace, to OTHER Muslims. The problem with Islam is how it empowers Muslims to harass, torture, or just a good ole' beheading to "non believers".

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers, Jason. 109! And that's not a "distortion", it's a fact.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By JasonMick (blog) on 7/22/2011 3:31:39 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers, Jason. 109! And that's not a "distortion", it's a fact.

And how many of those could be interpreted in other ways, or were in parts of the Koran that are easy for knowledgeable individuals to dismiss, similar to how you dismissed the Old Testament calls to violence?? Have you cataloged that?

I personally recall at least a couple dozen Old Testament passages, from my most recent readings talking about war and violence towards pagans.

There's a Muslim group in my area that regularly feeds the homeless, including Christians. It doesn't try to convert them (I helped at one of the events as a joint thing with the Christian church I sometimes go to).

Again, your views certainly are accurate of violent fundamentalist Muslims, but most definitely not all Muslims.

It'd be like if I said the KKK (which considers itself a religious "Christian" group) was the same type of Christian you are, or if you said because I was a Christian I was like the KKK.

Be careful with generalities and bigotry.

I am with you in that the impoverished, oppressed residents of Middle East are being brainwashed with a dogma of hate. But not I'm not convinced that dogma is "true" Islam, or that Islam in all its forms is inherently evil.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 3:54:45 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Again, your views certainly are accurate of violent fundamentalist Muslims, but most definitely not all Muslims.


But why are there SO many? The KKK, IRA, and whoever else represent a tiny tiny minority of Christians. If, in fact, they truly "represent" Christianity at all. But there are MILLIONS of crazy-ass Muslims out there.

Also, and there can be no denying this point, there is state sponsored Islamic terrorism. How does that factor in? It's easy to say it's just a few wacko's running around, but when entire Government's openly or secretly support, hide, and fund these extremists, well, something just isn't right about that at all. Would the U.S Government shelter and aid "Christian terrorists"?

Do you remember the parties in the streets in Muslim countries celebrating the attack on 9-11? Do you remember how that felt? I mean, were all those people just "brainwashed"!?

quote:
but most definitely not all Muslims.


Sigh...why is it that every time someone tries to get down to the root of the problem, this comes up? I am NOT saying all of them. But it's a significant portion of them, very significant, and it's growing by all accounts.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 4:04:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But why are there SO many?


Poor education, war torn, no money for the people, dictators, the USA attacking them and messing with them constantly, you name it. The cards have been against them for a long time, who would have guessed they would turn extremist. Christ, look at the idiots in this country, they get brainwashed at the drop of a hat. All it would take is a smooth talking religious leader to take half this country into the same kind of quagmire.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 4:18:17 PM , Rating: 2
You left out antisemitism. Don't tell me that's not a big one. America; Land of the Jews!


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 5:16:01 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure they have a right to hate Israel. Israel has been pretty crappy to them and to deny that is insane. They dislike us cause we fund the crap out of Israel's military. I dislike our funding of Israel as well, I don't see why we fund them when they do nothing for us but take and take, yet we defund education in this country and remove NASA, but at least we can throw money at Israel and useless wars!


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By KoS on 7/22/2011 6:01:21 PM , Rating: 1
From what I read...Arabs/Muslims living Israel get all the same rights Jews do. They vote, run for office, etc.

I would be willing to bet, they would much rather live in Israel, than in other Mulsim countries in the region.

NASA is still there and will be. We haven't defunded education. We throw bucket loads of money at education. And it's been shown money doesn't buy good results.


By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 6:35:23 PM , Rating: 2
He's conveniently leaving out, or probably isn't aware, the fact that the countries surrounding Israel all decided to gang up and declare war on it back in the day. Just because they hate Jews. They got their ass kicked though, and the rest is history.

There is an old saying; To the victor go the spoils.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/22/2011 5:11:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All it would take is a smooth talking [agnostic] leader to take this [whole] country into the same kind of [economic] quagmire.


Fixed it.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 5:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
Cause agnostics run so many cults and brainwash so many with their message of "I don't know, there might be a god, but who knows?"?


By straycat74 on 7/22/2011 5:29:23 PM , Rating: 2
I apologize. It wasn't meant to be about agnostics. I was just poking fun at our President. I thought I was being funny.


By YashBudini on 7/25/2011 9:57:22 PM , Rating: 2
A quote you may like from another blog:

quote:
Gods don't kill people, people with Gods kill people.


By JediJeb on 7/22/2011 3:47:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Once you've decided in your heart that you're going to heaven regardless of your actions and that others are going to hell for not believing in your religion, the root of evil has been sewn.


Unless after you have decided in your heart these two things, it ignites a love for those who you perceive as being lost and headed for hell and it makes you want to share with them your beliefs (not force upon them) so as to hopefully keep them from experiencing a terrible fate. Good or evil comes from how one responds to what they have decided in their hearts.


By geddarkstorm on 7/22/2011 4:01:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Once you've decided in your heart that you're going to heaven regardless of your actions and that others are going to hell for not believing in your religion, the root of evil has been sewn. Exactly how far your hatred takes you is largely determined by your personal circumstances (i.e. the poor, oppressed, and uneducated are more likely to fall to violence against others).


I really don't think that's the case though. Because, how can you know if someone else is saved or not? It's the height of arrogance in my view. Since "only God can know the heart", and belief is in the heart. Moreover, even if someone isn't saved right now they could be later; but murdering them would prevent that.

And even if one could know (while only God can judge, not us), all that is written about love and treating people fairly still applies to all, including those we despise. That is "love your enemy". No matter what, from the Biblical perspective, it is horrifically wrong to murder people whatever the reason, saved or not; and a Christian is fundamentally supposed to love all, saved or not, friend or foe.

So really, the whole heaven and hell is never an excuse or justification. It's a red herring.

I suppose it's how you define fundamentalism. Since, anyone who is actually educated in their own beliefs could never do these sorts of things we see happened today. It flies in the face of all of it. To me, I would say if one is fundamental in their beliefs, they should be cherishing all life and acting as a missionary out in the field. Yes, they would be staunch in their beliefs, but I don't think it's fundamentalism to be staunch in the sense of "all others much die but us who believe as we do". Unless, we're talking about a religion that preaches that as a fundamental doctrine.

Extremism and Fundamentalism are not interchangeable, I think. And I feel that's where the discussion is getting lost, both here and in the media. Extremism is where evil takes root. Fundamentalism can be extreme, but Extremism isn't necessarily fundamental.

In the end, what we see here, going on in Norway and other areas of the world, has nothing to do with religion; that's an easy scapegoat, just as nationalism is as well. People who are -tribalistic-, and here I feel the problem truly takes shape, can use any justification to try to wipe out competing "tribes". Wipe out, in the sense of silence and prevent competition, usually with violence.

Tribes do not tolerate each other. Gangs are the perfect example of modern tribalism in an overt sense, in a modern city; or hacker groups in a digital way. But it can crop up anywhere. The field of science has been having a tribalistic battle in the realm of climate change, with clear, documented instances of rigging of the peer review process and other vitriolic, unethical behavior by a small, core groups of people who have formed "tribes" over their ideas. Dr. Judith Curry has had great discussions about this tribalism on her blog Climate Etc.

Tribalism hurts everyone wherever and whatever form it crops up. And the most dramatic versions of it we call Extremism. But Fundamentalism isn't necessarily apart of this process or involved unless the subject matter's fundamental nature leads to this conclusion.

Therein, language has become obfuscated and left the realm of constructive reasoning, and it is why these violent things keep happening as the issue is always left unaddressed. If, that is, it is even fixable or too engrained in human nature.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Arsynic on 7/22/2011 2:46:43 PM , Rating: 2
You have to be an idiot to quote the Bible here. First off these were accounts of the military history of the Jews. This has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

The founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ said to: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." He also said: "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." He also said: "Love your enemies." He also said: "If you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword." The founder of Christianity never committed an act of violence or advocated violence.

Jason, not only was your response justifying violence by pointing to other violence, but you are way off base by quoting Jewish military history and ascribing it to the Christian moral code.


By Fritzr on 7/24/2011 2:15:09 AM , Rating: 1
Actually the council of leaders of the various Christian groups who selected the books that are today collectively called "The Bible" are the ones who decided that these selected Jewish Holy Books would be part of the tradition of the new church based on the teachings of a Jewish holy man.

When you claim that selected books of the Christian Bible are not Christian Holy Books, why should the remaining works, written years after the death of Jesus be any different? Why shouldn't the Christian Holy Texts, that the council decided not to include, be elevated to the same status as the Gospels?

After all if you are willing to throw out one set selected and approved by the committee that literally assembled the Christian Bible, that literally defines the teachings of the official church. Why should you honor their decision to toss out Holy Texts written by Christians?

As to why the Old Testament is relevant at all, you must remember that Jesus was never a Christian. He was an honest, law abiding Jew, who felt that gentiles should be treated as well as one would treat an honest Jew.

The Gospels were written many years after his death and the 4 accepted ones are not the only Christian Gospels in existence.


By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 3:05:06 PM , Rating: 2
I salute Norway for standing up for their freedom of speech. Hopefully, this cowardly act does nothing to deter their ongoing freedom and liberty.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By straycat74 on 7/22/2011 4:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
You really shouldn't write about something that you know nothing about. But if that were the case, you wouldn't have anything to do.

You should have a basic understanding of Christianity beyond what you get from celebrating Christmas and Easter before you try to publicly tell people about God and the bible. It would not do the subject matter justice to try to give you a short explanation of why you don't know what you are talking about. You would have to have an understanding of God and the purpose of Christ to understand the total nonsensical argument you are trying to make.

It is people like you that continually try to justify and appease radical muslims that help perpetuate this sort of thing. They need to be called out and they need to be condemned by the "peacefull" Muslims. Where is the outrage by the Muslim community against the terrorist murdering in their name? There are many Muslims. A true opposition by "peacefull" Muslims would be deafening.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 4:20:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It is people like you that continually try to justify and appease radical muslims that help perpetuate this sort of thing. They need to be called out and they need to be condemned by the "peacefull" Muslims. Where is the outrage by the Muslim community against the terrorist murdering in their name? There are many Muslims. A true opposition by "peacefull" Muslims would be deafening.


+6

All it takes for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing. Where are all the good Muslims? And where is the outrage at having seen their religion perverted. When lives are at stake, silence is compliance.


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By Gzus666 on 7/22/2011 4:24:18 PM , Rating: 2
Probably cause they are terrified, just like most of the people in this country. If you haven't noticed, we changed our entire way of life over 3000 people dying. That is insane. We allowed it due to fear, they allow it due to the same fear.


By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2011 4:27:37 PM , Rating: 2
You're comparing the fear of dying to the fear of ummm people you don't even know being killed?


RE: can we all agree that islam is evil now?
By ClownPuncher on 7/22/2011 5:15:57 PM , Rating: 2
There are quite a few Muslims speaking out against the violence.


By YashBudini on 7/22/2011 7:33:39 PM , Rating: 2
Not on a percentage basis.