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By comparison the asteroid impact with Earth that killed dinosaurs was a pop gun

Millions of years ago, an asteroid is believed to have hit the Earth leading to the mass extinction of the dinosaurs. As catastrophic as that impact was to the Earth and life on the planet at the time, how bad would the impact have been if the asteroid had been another Earth-like planet.

Astronomers believe they have found evidence of just such an impact of two Earth-like planets in a distant solar system. Astronomers and researchers observed what they believed to be a young star called BD+20 307 using X-ray and other observation methods.

The scientists found a ring of debris around the star that holds a million times more dust than what circles our sun now. Space.com reports that earlier this year scientist studying the star and its orbiting debris discovered what they believed to be a single, young star was actually a very old binary pair.

Before the discovery of the second star, the astronomers believed that the dust and debris was simply leftovers from the formation of planets around the young star. However, the scientists were forced to rethink their theory after the second star was discovered and subsequently the stars were found to be billions of years old.

With this discovery, the researchers began to wonder why so much debris was present. If left over from initial planetary formation around the star pair, the dust and debris would have swept up into new planets or pushed away by solar radiation.

The only theory that fits with the discovery according to the scientist is that two orbiting planets -- about the size of Earth -- collided with massively catastrophic results. The collision would have happened sometime in the last few hundred thousand years.

Benjamin Zuckerman, professor of physics and astronomy at UCLA says, "It's as if Earth and Venus collided. Astronomers have never seen anything like this before. Apparently, major catastrophic collisions can take place in a fully mature planetary system."

Tennessee State University astronomer Gregory Henry said, "If any life was present on either planet, the massive collision would have wiped out everything in a matter of minutes, the ultimate extinction event. A massive disk of infrared-emitting dust circling the star provides silent testimony to this sad fate."

Other researchers on the project pose the important question: How do planetary orbits in mature planetary systems destabilize to the point of a catastrophic collision? The other major question according to astronomer Francis Fekel from TSU is could such a collision happen in our solar system.

Part of the answer to the question of could massive collisions happen in our own solar system is yes. Scientists point out that in addition to the asteroid believed to have caused the extinction of the dinosaurs, a massive collision with the Earth is believed to have created the moon.

Henry refers to computer models that have shown that a collision between Earth and a Mars-sized object is believed to have ejected the material from Earth that formed our moon. Henry also points out that there is a small potential of a collision of Mercury with Earth of Venus in the next billion years.



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That was painful...
By Innocent Hawk on 9/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: That was painful...
By Chernobyl68 on 9/24/2008 6:27:58 PM , Rating: 3
also, more appropriate to say "earth sized" since we have no idea what the surface was like. Otherwise, Venus is an Earth-like planet.


RE: That was painful...
By Chernobyl68 on 9/24/08, Rating: 0
RE: That was painful...
By Chernobyl68 on 9/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: That was painful...
By Chernobyl68 on 9/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: That was painful...
By Yossarian22 on 9/24/2008 6:47:01 PM , Rating: 3
How the hell did you manage to quadruple post?


RE: That was painful...
By ggordonliddy on 9/24/2008 8:16:29 PM , Rating: 5
All the cool kids are doing it doing it doing it doing it.


RE: That was painful...
By quiksilvr on 9/25/2008 1:19:20 AM , Rating: 1
I think a better question would be why DT readers are so mean? Clearly it was a glitch in the system there's no need to rate someone down for something that wasn't his fault.


RE: That was painful...
By AnnihilatorX on 9/26/2008 10:32:23 AM , Rating: 2
It's not mean. By rating it down to 0 hides the comment by default. I agree there's no need to rate down to -1 but well.


RE: That was painful...
By Chernobyl68 on 9/25/2008 7:11:34 PM , Rating: 2
sheesh...every time I hit "post comment" I got a "page not found"

sorry about that...


RE: That was painful...
By sh3rules on 9/24/2008 9:07:17 PM , Rating: 2
DT probably has outsourced its proofreading.


RE: That was painful...
By comc49 on 9/24/2008 10:58:47 PM , Rating: 2
i think this is the reason that my SAT writing score sucks :(


RE: That was painful...
By Bonesdad on 9/24/2008 11:25:52 PM , Rating: 1
amazing, my 6th grade daughter can write better than that...and she proofs her work.


RE: That was painful...
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 11:37:29 PM , Rating: 3
She should write for DailyTech.


RE: That was painful...
By Samus on 9/25/2008 5:51:20 AM , Rating: 3
The smart ones always grow up to be bad girls...keep an eye on her.


RE: That was painful...
By mercilessming on 9/25/2008 10:25:57 AM , Rating: 2
My biggest question, Why is it so important for people who don't run their own website to correct others? Is this some way of feeling that one has been able to strike a blow against all those who wouldn't pick you for dodge ball in grade school?

Read the article, and make intelligent post about the Subject matter, PLEASE!


RE: That was painful...
By borismkv on 9/27/2008 5:08:34 PM , Rating: 2
Why pay a proofreader when there are a hundred self-righteous jerks that post corrections for free?


Well
By maevinj on 9/24/2008 12:45:35 PM , Rating: 5
Looks like the Empire has a new Death Star they're testing out...




RE: Well
By Mitch101 on 9/24/2008 1:48:17 PM , Rating: 4
Yup. Some of us knew the planet as Alderaan but that was long ago.


RE: Well
By foolsgambit11 on 9/24/2008 3:48:42 PM , Rating: 5
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?


RE: Well
By Omega215D on 9/25/2008 4:07:53 AM , Rating: 5
A long time ago but somehow in the future. ;)


RE: Well
By JKflipflop98 on 9/24/2008 9:12:00 PM , Rating: 3
Dantooine was far too remote.


RE: Well
By strmbkr on 9/25/2008 11:14:49 AM , Rating: 2
The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.


Fekel
By Suntan on 9/24/2008 1:36:59 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
...astronomer Francis Fekel


Seriously?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say he’s never been laid.

Honestly, what was his mother thinking… …Frany Fekel…

-Suntan




RE: Fekel
By TheFace on 9/24/2008 2:44:17 PM , Rating: 5
If only they could call the debris left over from the collision, 'Fekel Matter'...

AH... so lame...


RE: Fekel
By 1078feba on 9/24/2008 10:25:06 PM , Rating: 2
Now I have hippie crack, I mean Mountain Dew all over my keyboard.


RE: Fekel
By erikstarcher on 9/26/2008 10:22:45 AM , Rating: 2
Get your facts straight...Nitrous Oxide is hippie crack. Mountain Dew is kiddie crack.


The answer is simple...
By InvertMe on 9/24/2008 12:18:52 PM , Rating: 5
Their LHC didn't malfunction.

DUN DUN DUN!




RE: The answer is simple...
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 3:00:44 PM , Rating: 5
No wonder the transformer blew, the test was wildly successful beyond all dreams. I guess when they sent a particle through it escaped via a mini-black hole and into a dimension where time was at a point of billions of years ago. The particle had time to accrete enough mass to be the size of a planet while other particles merged with others and others to eventually coalesce into stars and the stars grouped together into galaxies. Long story short, the now planet-sized particle popped out a white hole after its journey in the other dimension and headed straight for its Earth-sized target planet. I just hope that planet didn't have anyone on it. At least now we have a superweapon that we have absolutely no idea how to control. Muhahahaha. /end ridiculous rant


RE: The answer is simple...
By paydirt on 9/25/2008 2:16:54 PM , Rating: 2
Or, the two planets had inhabitants and they decided to create a space elevator so they could cooperate/trade. The elevator destabilized the orbit of one of the planets. Oooops!


collided with massively catastrophic results??
By kattanna on 9/24/2008 3:54:19 PM , Rating: 4
and could there be any other way 2 bodies the size of earth could have collided?




By MrPickins on 9/25/2008 2:08:18 AM , Rating: 2
This is what it's like when worlds collide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81aJmjUK08s


RE: collided with massively catastrophic results??
By raphd on 9/25/2008 7:00:09 AM , Rating: 3
after watching that video. I wish I was on one of those planets.


By MrPickins on 9/29/2008 7:31:51 PM , Rating: 2
I was merely pointing out the catastrophic results.


Must have been the Vogons
By Chernobyl68 on 9/24/2008 12:51:06 PM , Rating: 5
didn't you see the construction notice? it was posted!




RE: Must have been the Vogons
By SoCalBoomer on 9/24/2008 1:59:57 PM , Rating: 2
:D


RE: Must have been the Vogons
By 1078feba on 9/24/2008 10:23:45 PM , Rating: 2
42


Obviously
By japlha on 9/24/2008 1:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
This is obviously the result of a large celestial object
passing through at near-right angles to the plane of the star system. Probably a black hole.




RE: Obviously
By foolsgambit11 on 9/24/2008 3:54:39 PM , Rating: 2
Reference? It sounds so familiar, but I can't place it.


RE: Obviously
By japlha on 9/25/2008 11:28:51 AM , Rating: 2
I'll give you a clue.
Just the letter "Q".


RE: Obviously
By Goty on 9/24/2008 11:34:50 PM , Rating: 2
Please tell me there are some hidden sarcasm tags there I can't see.


untitled
By nace186 on 9/24/2008 12:37:07 PM , Rating: 2
You know, that's what really happened to Krypton.




RE: untitled
By Armorize on 9/24/2008 5:29:47 PM , Rating: 2
lol thank you, thats what i thought as soon as i read the title of the article.

watch this get out to some scientologists they'll be screaming, "thats our former home zomg! maybe that weird named guy will pick us up in his rv!"


Hmm
By ADDAvenger on 9/24/2008 12:30:48 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe a black hole flew through that solar system perpendicular to their plane of rotation!




If they looked closer...
By UNCjigga on 9/24/2008 1:32:58 PM , Rating: 2
They should've seen the writing in the dust that says "The Death Star Was Here".




Jumping The Gun
By Sir Picto on 9/24/2008 2:58:21 PM , Rating: 2
While I do believe a Mars-sized object collided with primitive Earth to create the Moon, that doesn't automatically mean the same for the solar system in question. The gravity of Jupiter prevented the asteroid belt from forming another planetary object of some kind. The gravity of two stars... could easily pull enough material away from a belt that would otherwise form a planet.

After the impact matter congealed again to form the Earth and the Moon. Something on this magnitude definitely can shatter celestial objects. You can also imagine that for quite some time after both objects were molten. This is what gave the moon its "seas" if you will as it cooled.

Though I believe we may also see evidence of that in the other solar system. If no celestial object is found within the debris coalescing via gravity I would think it would show that it was just more akin to our own asteroid belt having been cock blocked, as it were.

But then again I'm no expert.




Such a precise science
By Scabies on 9/24/2008 9:59:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The scientists found a ring of debris around the star that holds a million times more dust than what circles our sun now.


quote:
The only theory that fits with the discovery according to the scientist is that two orbiting planets -- about the size of Earth -- ***conveniently a size we are more or less familiar with***


quote:
Henry also points out that there is a small potential of a collision of Mercury with Earth of Venus in the next billion years.

Could be tomorrow, could be after the apocalypse, could be long after our sun goes nova. Better be prepared.




...
By Min Jia on 9/24/2008 11:13:06 PM , Rating: 2
Wondering what would happen the next time Nibiru (if it does exist) passes by Earth.




It was demolished...
By AE3Wolfman on 9/25/2008 12:54:14 PM , Rating: 2
To make way for a hyperspace bypass...




planets collided?
By Beavermatic on 9/26/2008 11:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
thats just a cover-up...

I think one of those planets had successfully tested particle collison on their own whacked-out LHC-like mechanism.

At least they get an "A" for effort from every other life-inhabited planet 'cross the universe.

applause, everyone.




All your base are belong to us
By timmiser on 9/29/2008 8:11:01 PM , Rating: 2
What happen ?

Somebody set up us the bomb.




Lack of Scientific Knowlege
By Goty on 9/24/2008 11:39:25 PM , Rating: 1
Articles like this just make me sad. I read all of these comments that are stated as fact when 90% people in the comments section haven't had any science courses relevant to this topic since introductory college mechanics.




By PaxtonFettel on 9/25/2008 4:01:02 AM , Rating: 1
Millions of years ago, an asteroid is believed to have hit the Earth, a contributing factor in the mass extinction of the dinosaurs.

than

Millions of years ago, an asteroid is believed to have hit the Earth leading to the mass extinction of the dinosaurs

/pedantic palaeontologist




Reminds everyone....
By pauldovi on 9/24/08, Rating: -1
RE: Reminds everyone....
By Spivonious on 9/24/2008 12:45:15 PM , Rating: 5
Don't you mean naieve?

(joke in reference to the pop-ups article)


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 2:56:19 PM , Rating: 1
There's a difference between causing and contributing, however. To say that mankind doesn't provide any effect whatsoever on the atmosphere is quite silly, but of course the debate lingers on exactly how much we contribute. You know it doesn't take much to upset an equilibrium. I'd think that with all the pollution generated by humans that end up either in the air, in landfills or in our water supply that we have some effect on our environment. We've seen it happen to rain forests, to rivers, the Great Lakes even, as well as various habitats around the world. Just how much of an impact does all of our pollution together cause and how do the dynamic interactions of various forms of pollution possibly contribute to Earth's ecological problems?

We are now a sprawling civilization, raising metal, brick and garbage across the world. Take a look at satellite pictures. Humanity is certainly generating a massive effect on planet Earth whether it be from a natural resources point of view or simply that of the numerous divisions in natural habitats that we have created: interstates and roads in general, towns, cities, railroads, canals and man-made rivers or lakes. We alter the way the biosphere operates. We cut off species by driving our obstructions through their homes.

Of course, I am not about to make it some sort of Green Peace commentary. Human civilization is what it is and I don't have a problem with it. However, I do acknowledge that humans, or at least human creations can have a tangible effect on the environment. Just think that virtually all of human creations are not natural. Crops aren't even natural. We've domesticated animals and crops. We've brought foreign species from other places in the world that have taken a toll on native species.

I suppose you guys get my point, nonetheless. The only thing that really should be debated is how much of an effect do humans have. It's not that we don't have an effect it's how much. I am sure most of us will say that the effect is quite small in comparison to natural processes. Others might not agree. But herein lies the debate, not whether or not what we do has an effect. If you think that humanity doesn't have an effect at all, then I am afraid you are an idiot.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By shin0bi272 on 9/24/2008 4:13:28 PM , Rating: 3
No we really dont have any effect. First off 20 years ago no one was worried about co2 it was cfc's that was the buzzword. Now that cfc's have been banned (even though its cost lives)they are onto another gas thats been around the entire time but we arent bringing back cfcs because the greenies were wrong.
Then the hottest year on record was 1934 (after 1998 being nullified since one of the recording locations was next to an air conditioner exhaust)and our highest use of wood, coal, and other fuels being burned for heat occured before 1900. If we were going to have any real effect as a civilization I would surmise that it would have happened back then when we burned coal in trains without any kind of filter on the smoke stack and burned wood in our homes. Then you have the fact global temperature has gone up and down but overall its only gone up a small percentage of a degree in 200 years.
Then theres the fact that in 1813 THERE WAS NO SUMMER. The picture of Washington crossing the Delaware was accurate with the amount of ice on the river because we were just coming out of a small ice age that had lasted almost 800 years. So of course the temperature is going to go up after an ice age. You also have to remember when the vikings landed on greenland around the year 1000 it was green... thats why they named it greenland. over the next 200 years or so their diet went from sheep and goat with a little bit of fish to mostly fish and an occasional sheep and goat. Today the bulk of GREEEEENland is covered by a glacier...

The greenies need to think in geologic time not in terms of 10 or 50 or 100 years. Thats the blink of an eye in geologic time.

So putting 2 and 2 together the "normal" temperature for the planet is supposed to be warmer than it is and it will get there on its own no matter what we do.

This planet is so large and we are so small we couldnt put enough co2 into the atmosphere to heat the planet if we tired. We would have to chop down every tree and pave over every inch of the land on the planet to even begin to affect the atmosphere. Even if we did that theres still all the plants in the ocean and the ozone hole over the antarctic that will regulate the temperatures even THEN.

You know what caused the whole environmentalist idea to start up? It wasnt born of the hippies getting stoned and thinking that the earth was all goovy and the government sucked. It was because of an oil spill off of california in 1969 (santa barbara i think it was) that sparked the whole movement off. The irony of that is now the oil is seeping out of the ground under the ocean off the coast and weve come full circle in the very place that it all started. Now they want to drill the oil out of the ground because its less harmful to drill for it and take the remote chance on a spill than have it seep out of the ground and kill birds and fish anyway.

The major problem with global warming is that no one questioned it for decades because everyone thinks that when someone comes up with an idea like "we need to stop global warming" that that person has done their research and can prove their point. So people go along with it even if that person has no proof what so ever that we are doing or can do anything about it. People just follow along blindly and buy whatever 4 dollar lightbulb or use however many squares of toilet paper their favorite singer tells them to use.

So the next time you have someone telling you something ... look up what they are saying (you can start with me IDC) and dont use wikipedia because its not a reliable source. Go to a library, read the lies er um books that others have written. Dont just say ohh were contributing to it and we need to stop... So we need to stop breathign and kill all of the animals off and live just long enough to see that the temperature is still going up inexorably slow. Get real.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Enoch2001 on 9/24/2008 5:02:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Go to a library, read the lies er um books that others have written.


Why do that when I can get the same effect by reading your short essay - which, by the way, cited no reliable sources.

The fact of the matter is that there are dozens of theories that have very little proof and dozens of theories which have loads of proof. I'm not sure which side your opinion falls on, though.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Hive on 9/24/2008 5:06:36 PM , Rating: 2
Hell yeah! Nothing us puny humans can do can upset Big Mamma Earth, don't you get it? Do you really think 6 billion mofos razing and dumping shit day and night anywhere can have any sort of influence at all? No way! She's damn huge, ok? I mean, just look around!


RE: Reminds everyone....
By spuddyt on 9/24/2008 6:09:19 PM , Rating: 2
something very small can do something very big.... and humans are small, with a lot of time.... (I mean, if a needle can kill a human completely in the right place, what can 6 billion humans digging and farming and fighting and crapping all over the place do?)


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Hawkido on 9/29/2008 2:32:04 PM , Rating: 2
You are soo right... because human beings have only been on this planet for how many thousand year...

Before the human beings came along and wiped out "ALL" the creatures on the planet, the animals were running around digging and crapping all over the place, they were killing each other. Forest fires were wiping out trees in greater numbers than we are, plus the fire converted the whole tree into CO2 where as us Human Beings sequester the CO2 in the wood into products that hang around as furniture or houses for centuries. So that only leaves farming... That's right trees weren't growing fruit before human beings dwelt on the planet, crops didn't spring forth from the soil before us...

There certainly is alot of crap in the world now that you have posted though, so perhaps you are right.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/24/2008 7:24:30 PM , Rating: 2
> " You know it doesn't take much to upset an equilibrium."

The error is the assumption that earth is now, or has ever been in any sort of 'equilibrium'. Temperatures and CO2 levels are constantly varying. Both, in fact, began rising in this latest cycle well before man began burning substantial amounts of fossil fuels.

> "Take a look at satellite pictures"

If you do so, you'll see the majority of the Earth's surface is still wholly undeveloped. Even in highly industrial nations like the US, most of the Great West is still empty. People are often fooled because most of us live nearly our entire lives within 100 meters of a road.

Furthermore, if one looks even closer at those satellite images, you'll see that the air and water has been getting cleaner for decades. And -- if one excludes just the two nations of Brazil and Indonesia -- total forested area is increasing as well. Total biomass, the sum weight of all living creatures on the planet, is likewise rising at a fast pace, thanks to warmer temperatures and faster plant growth due to increased CO2 levels.

As far back as records go, people have been claiming the earth is ending, and man has some sort of hand in it. It's human nature apparently to believe the worst, no matter what the facts show.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 8:30:11 PM , Rating: 1
Ah of course it's you. Pleasure to hear from you again.

The Earth of course is not in an equilibrium. Perhaps I should have said a "delicate balance." It seesaws naturally, but the question remains on when you add unnatural variables, how do those variables factor into the equation. Do those variables carry enough weight to tip the seesaw in one direction or the other or to generally make the seesaw wobble more severely in both directions before finally thrusting over to one side?

By the way, satellite pictures show us at enough of a zoom level (heck, a zoom level of even showing a couple states) that farmlands are abundant and you can even start to make out the gray areas of development. Humans clearly have an impact, but you make it sound like if you can't see human civilization covering Earth like mold on bread then we don't have any affect.

Maybe you should think about aneurysms and blood clots. Something so small can kill you. You might not even be able to see it unless you really investigate and take a close look. In a way, humans are a disease to the delicate balances that fight to exist on Earth. But are we just the sniffles, the common cold, or perhaps ebola? Are we causing the Earth to bleed in a way?


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 8:32:48 PM , Rating: 2
Hate to waste a post, but since I am a grammar nazi myself, I had to point out that I meant "effect" and not "affect" in the last sentence of the second paragraph. *doh*


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/24/2008 9:42:42 PM , Rating: 3
> "Perhaps I should have said a "delicate balance."

Again, there's no evidence to support that claim either. The earth has survived events far more cataclysmic than our returning a little of the CO2 back to the air from whence it came. Had this "delicate balance" ever in fact existed, life would have ceased long ago, after the first ice age or major meteor strike.

> "human civilization covering Earth like mold on bread...In a way, humans are a disease."

A very illuminating choice of metaphor. I've never been quite sure why you and so many other environmentalists have so much hatred for yourselves, your fellow man, and all their works, but if you were ever unlucky enough to actually experience "mother nature" as she really is, I think you'd quickly be cured of your hypocritical distaste for the benefits of civilization and industrialization.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 9:58:37 PM , Rating: 2
Your post doesn't make any sense. The Earth has survived cataclysms but has life? No. Plenty of times life has suffered major extinction events. That is what is at stake, not the geology of Earth.

As far as me saying "humans are a disease." I completely did not mean it in the way that you have intended. But to be honest, if you think about it, we are killing off quite a many species. Ever read up on the Holocene extinction event? Isn't that obvious enough? I am quite fine with humanity but asking for a bit more responsibility isn't too much. You should not put words in my mouth. I am on a tech site for crying out loud. I love my technology and human civilization, but people like you can be quite annoying.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/24/2008 10:27:11 PM , Rating: 2
> "The Earth has survived cataclysms but has life? No. "

If life didn't survive, what do you think we're doing here now? Life only started once here.

I don't think you understand the term "extinction event". While it sounds scary, some of the largest such events were simply due to a decrease in the rate of speciation (the rate in which new species form) and not the widespread death of all life on the planet. Therefore, the total number of different species dropped, even though the total biomass (the amount of living creatures on the planet) rose.

Even looking at some which actually were violent events that resulted in widescale death, its illuminating to compare scale. For instance, in the K/T extinction, the Earth was struck by an asteroid which caused a global fireball and ejected magma, causing firestorms and an infrared pulse that caused temperatures to rise 100 or more degrees over the entire planet. A tsunami as much as 600 feet high circled the entire planet three times.

The atmosphere filled with sulfuric acid, and acidic, salty mud rained globally for up to ten years. The dust blocked sunlight, inhibiting photosynthesis and causing temperatures to drop like a stone.

And yet after all that, half of all species survived, many almost entirely unscathed. And yet fear-mongering environmentalists would have us believe that all life on Earth will cease, due to a gradual rise in mean temperatures of a couple degrees? Utter nonsense.

But then, some people specialize in nonsense.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 10:53:40 PM , Rating: 2
Life has survived, but there have been extinction events. Life has never been completely wiped out but obviously an extinction event in itself is quite a bad thing.

By the way, I do not think Earth will cease to exist nor do I agree with environmentalists on such issues. I do believe I can say that humans do contribute to the degradation of the environment and species. We do have our positive aspects too. We are fallible creatures of course so I will admit that. I will forget about the analogies for now. You obviously didn't agree with them so there is no point debating with that.

The simple fact is, I am only saying that I think humans do have an effect on our environment and whether we like it or not, some of the things we do are bad for it. Sure, other things we do are good (such as the elimination of CFCs... though that was a man-made problem to begin with).


RE: Reminds everyone....
By nofranchise on 9/25/2008 4:25:06 AM , Rating: 1
In mashers perfect future the globe is populated by hogs and cattle. Although they are the only two animal species left, the total biomass has increased. Ergo: Everything's dandy!

Humanity has spread to all corners of the world. Cities thrive on Antarctica, the Amazon basin is teeming with huge farms producing food for the great human race, and nuclear power supports an endless production of inane gizmoes and worthless objects created solely to make time fly for the bored masses.

Is the sunset the same when it sets over a huge open pit mine instead of a lush oaken grove? Of course it is! It is still photons hitting your eyes and body, so keep smiling!

Why spend valuable time trying to save the gorillas from poaching, when they produce nothing of benefit to the human race? Help your fellow man: Rid us of this nuisance once and for all!

It might have taken the earth millions of years to recuperate from the last large extinction event, but who cares? As long as we have HBO!

- Meh. Why bother. Everybody knows it's a waste of time talking to a robot.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/25/2008 10:34:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Humanity has spread to all corners of the world. Cities thrive on Antarctica, the Amazon basin is teeming with huge farms producing food for the great human race, and nuclear power supports an endless production of inane gizmoes and worthless objects created solely to make time fly for the bored masses
I notice you're using some of those "inane gizmos" to read and post here, to alleviate some of your own boredom. To bastardize a quote-- "hypocrisy, the last refuge of the scoundrel."

In any case, my future appears much brighter than yours-- humanity reduced to a few flea-scratching wretches huddling in caves, wearing handmade clothes and eating nothing but gathered roots and berries-- afraid to even scratch the surface of the earth with a plow, for fear of the damage it my cause.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By DeepBlue1975 on 9/26/2008 7:49:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
for fear of the damage it my cause.


It's good that you acknowledge the fact that everyone fears the damage your cause could inflict.
You, and only you, are the whole reason for global warming.

No wonder you always discredit man originated global warming, it's just a cover up for your evil actions.

DT Readers: We now know that Armageddon will never happen. It'll be Ar-Masher-don.

PS: I think this will entitle me as the DT poster who made the stupidest joke ever from a simple typo. I'm honored, thank you.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By nofranchise on 9/29/2008 4:46:25 AM , Rating: 2
*sigh*

My point was Masher - which I realize can be hard for a cold bionic brain to understand - that even though progress is good, progress at the cost of everything else isn't. At least that's the way I see it. But I never thought you would get it.

Keep feeling superior, at leasts it's an emotion.

/nf


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Reclaimer77 on 9/30/2008 4:33:35 PM , Rating: 2
Who are you kidding punk ??

You typed this on a computer. You probably drive a car, or your parents do. You live in a house which is powered and heated and cooled. You take showers like the rest of us ( I hope ) for as long as you damn well please. I'm pretty sure you eat food as well. You throw away garbage.

Where the hell do you get off with this high handed and completely hypocritical rant ??? Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy about nature doesn't mean you actually are any better than Masher or the rest of us. Or that you contribute any less to Earths impending doom or whatever your preaching.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Cincybeck on 9/24/2008 11:12:00 PM , Rating: 3
I would say there's a balance, but delicate? I believe what masher was getting at is this. If this balance is, as delicate as you claim, then the cataclysmic events of the past would have upset it enough to cease all life on this plant along time ago.

As masher said.

"Total biomass, the sum weight of all living creatures on the planet, is likewise rising at a fast pace, thanks to warmer temperatures and faster plant growth due to increased CO2 levels."

So the way I see it, we're in fact increasing the ability of this plant to support more life, plant and mammal alike. We're not creating CO2, we're releasing it from it confinements. This in turn causes green life to flourish today(which takes the CO2 and produces Oxygen) and in turn allows mammals to flourish tomorrow. In essence we're releasing life. It's called fossil fuels for a reason. It was once living. We're just giving it the potential to be, what it once was.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Cincybeck on 9/24/2008 11:19:00 PM , Rating: 2
First line last paragraph suppose to read as.

"So the way I see it, we're in fact increasing the ability of this planet to support more life, plant and mammal alike."

Oops =P


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 11:26:40 PM , Rating: 2
It's no problem, I understood what you meant. By the way, I can certainly see that maybe it is not delicate for all species, but delicate for some, definitely. Of course those species that depend on a delicate balance will inevitably die out. Humans may only make it faster (note, that me saying this is only possibly providing the facts, not trying to somehow put some sort of morals or anything else on that statement) with artificial release of carbon via the burning of fossil fuels. Humans are very hardy and can live in probably a variety of environments. The animal and plant life we depend on may have a harder time depending on species.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Cincybeck on 9/24/2008 11:56:27 PM , Rating: 1
I understand what you mean. I hate to sound like a pompous ass but Darwin's Theory is a bitch. But I guess that goes back to your question of how much are we effecting the environment or really how fast we are effecting it and whether it will allow enough time for species to evolve and adapt.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 11:23:43 PM , Rating: 2
It is true, but that's a bit of a bad way of supporting it. Biomass may indeed go up in terms of plant life (even hardy animal life), but there are plenty of species that will be negatively impacted. A decline in speciation, as masher as said, has happened in the past. Happening now of course does not benefit the entire ecosystem because of the various things that depend upon one another for food and etc. One thing dies out, another thing might die because it eats it for food, for instance.

Biomass alone isn't a great reason to wave off burning fossil fuels. Some people might not think a decline in speciation isn't such a bad thing. Indeed, it is unfortunately inevitable. However, by artificially releasing carbon into the atmosphere I think humans do have an effect. This is what I am getting at. Not whether we affect the environment or not, but how much do we affect it.

We can debate about morals and shoulds or should nots another time. I think it is best to return to the ground on how much humans actually affect the environment. That's what I was trying to get at.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Cincybeck on 9/24/2008 11:38:40 PM , Rating: 2
We're definitely effecting our environment as does all life. I would say there is no way to tell whether our actions are impacting it severely enough to result in negative consequence. Only the future may hold that information. As far as we know though this planet as never seen a species as advanced as humans are today. So unless a cataclysmic event happens between now and then. Which I believe is the underlying fear that most people are expressing is that we are going to be the ones to trigger it. I would say it's a safe bet that we will be advance enough to have at least some control over the negative, before it ever happens.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Reclaimer77 on 9/30/2008 4:28:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, by artificially releasing carbon into the atmosphere I think humans do have an effect.


*holds forehead*

Sigh...

Do you realize around 80% of all carbon released into the atmosphere is done by NATURE ? Man made Co2/carbon accounts for around 20-30% yearly.

Its not a poison or a pollutant. The HUGE majority of it is released by good old mother nature herself.

Get a clue PLEASE !


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Reclaimer77 on 9/30/2008 4:22:22 PM , Rating: 2
The idea that Earth's ecosystem is a delicate feather resting on a scale and that too much of something can tip it into planet changing human killing disaster is whats assanine about the " logic " behind people like you.

Stop backpedalling. You know what you meant and we read clearly what you said. There IS NO delicate balance and there never was.

quote:
Plenty of times life has suffered major extinction events. That is what is at stake, not the geology of Earth.


I honestly wish we could round up and shoot every idiot such as yourself who actually believes rising CO2 levels is an " extinction event ". Good lord do you honestly buy into that crap ?

quote:
if you think about it, we are killing off quite a many species. Ever read up on the Holocene extinction event? Isn't that obvious enough? I am quite fine with humanity but asking for a bit more responsibility isn't too much.


Yeah I thought so. Go hug another tree you dope smoking teenage do nothing. The Holocene just happens to describe a period of time which cooincidently began around the time of early man when the Earth is going through major changes. Are you saying the extinction of the mammoth and sabre tooth are also exclusively mans fault ? Maybe YOU should read up on things and not just mindlessly search the Wikipedia to expose yourself to the biased mentality of others such as yourself.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 10:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
By the way... this is what I said:

"but you make it sound like if you can't see human civilization covering Earth like mold on bread then we don't have any affect."

Obvious the way I meant it, but you can contort anything you'd like to satisfy your own needs.

"YOU make it sound like that IF you can't see it like mold on bread it doesn't exist."

I did not say human civilization was mold on bread. Sorry, but such accusations are completely irritating.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/24/2008 10:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
> "I did not say human civilization was mold on bread"

Your statements are there in black and white. Saying humanity is "like a disease" and suggesting that disease might be Ebola is what one might call a "Freudian slip". A very illuminating view of one's psyche, to be sure.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 10:15:15 PM , Rating: 1
It is an analogy. Ever heard of one? I said that if you can't see it like mold on bread then you think it doesn't exist. I am sorry but most people here have enough of a brain to understand an analogy when they see one.

By the way, are you a qualified psychologist? I don't think so, so shut up.

Anyways, humanity being a disease... well it's quite a good metaphor in a way because I am sure that our effects on the environment and other species are very damaging. Whether you like it or not, we are damaging the environment in many places (though we do admittedly have some good efforts at stopping this or repairing our damage) and contributing to the extinction or decline in numbers of several species.

These are facts. Facts do not make me a die-hard, cultist environmentalist as you are trying to make me seem. Sorry but your childish tactics won't work.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 10:19:37 PM , Rating: 2
By the way, the next time I say "Jupiter is a planet" I guess I can be called an astronomer according to your logic. Simply giving out the facts is enough to give anyone a job title I guess.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By sigilscience on 9/24/2008 10:32:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Anyways, humanity being a disease... well it's quite a good metaphor
You're just digging yourself in deeper there, pal. You might want to stop before you get to China.

quote:
acts do not make me a die-hard, cultist environmentalist
No your attitude does that.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 11:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I have decided to essentially just give up. Some people I can't convince on how I meant things. Though an analogy is just an analogy. Some people will take it the way they wish.

And sadly it is true that my irritated attitude has not helped me any. But when people throw false accusations my way and contort the way I mean things, it can be quite irritating. I suppose I understand why some people say troll feeding is a bad thing. But then again I shouldn't throw out such accusations about masher either. He obviously has his beliefs, which are exceedingly optimistic sounding. My beliefs are that of sharing facts and I might even be pessimistic on some things. Obviously most of the facts I have shared have been on the negative impacts and that is where people such as masher might get the view that I am some sort of hypocritical environmentalist-techno hybrid.

I can say that I have deep concern for the environment, but the false accusations about me trying to get behind the facts as some sort of enviro-freak ammunition is completely false. Whether or not we want to debate on the very petty differences between equilibrium and delicate balances or life vanishing and extinctions is another thing. If someone is going to try to contort what I say, well I can't stop them.

The simple fact of the matter is this: Humans do have an impact on our environment and it isn't always good. I'm sorry that some of you take such huge offense to my sharing of these facts. Simply sharing facts does not mean that I am trying to say that humanity is ultra evil in some ridiculous way. But why should I get off on a tangent and talk about all the wonderful things humanity has done (quite a few) just to somehow support the fact that I love my fellow man and the fruits of civilization? It isn't supporting what I deem relevant to the conversation: humanity impacting the environment.

Thus I must apologize for my irritation and for stooping to a low level. But I must also say that I continue to believe that such contortion of facts and false allegations were not in good judgment either.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By MAIA on 9/24/2008 8:43:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Furthermore, if one looks even closer at those satellite images, you'll see that the air and water has been getting cleaner for decades.


Do you realize this is pure empiricism ? You do seem to mix a lot some scientific theories with some wishful thinking. If not, tell me how can you quantify the pureness degree of air and water just by looking at satellite images ?


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 8:51:48 PM , Rating: 2
I suppose since we've been putting better cameras on our spacecraft over the past few decades, it's made the Earth look better... so the air and water must be getting cleaner.

By the way, if you look at some satellite images you can CLEARLY see pollution as it gets carried away by wind and even the jet stream. I believe on of these images was over Lake Erie.

Found it via google by the way: http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=1519

Yup, we have no effect at all.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/24/2008 9:33:38 PM , Rating: 2
> "Do you realize this is pure empiricism ?"

I don't believe that word means what you think it does. In any case, the statement that our air and water has been getting cleaner is more than just "wishful thinking". Satellite data confirms it, and in fact a large portion of Europe's warming over the past century has been attributed simply to a reduction in atmospheric particulates:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12371

EPA air and water quality data has also been improving since the agency first began keeping records. The only "wishful thinking" here seems to be those people who desperately desire to believe the worst about their species.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By marsbound2024 on 9/24/2008 10:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
Or perhaps those people who desperately desire to believe the absolute best. Blissful ignorance I suppose. Which is ironic coming from you. You tend to believe that we humans have no effect on our environment. We do. I've explained it already. And yet you accuse me of having a hypocritical distaste for industrialization. Absurd. I can admit it is a problem and that it is happening, but it doesn't mean I am some sort of tree-hugging environmentalist. As I mentioned a minute ago, the Holocene extinction event is very real whether you want to admit it or not.

Keep living behind your rose-colored glasses my friend.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By Digimonkey on 9/25/2008 8:45:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
> "Do you realize this is pure empiricism ?"

I don't believe that word means what you think it does.


Inconceivable!


RE: Reminds everyone....
By InvertMe on 9/25/2008 9:36:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
by Digimonkey on September 25, 2008 at 8:45 AM

quote:
> "Do you realize this is pure empiricism ?"

I don't believe that word means what you think it does.

Inconceivable!


You beat me to it!

Princess Bride references are always welcome.


RE: Reminds everyone....
By masher2 (blog) on 9/25/2008 10:34:57 AM , Rating: 2
You folks have outed me...


RE: Reminds everyone....
By MAIA on 9/24/2008 9:01:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As far back as records go, people have been claiming the earth is ending, and man has some sort of hand in it. It's human nature apparently to believe the worst, no matter what the facts show.


It's not about believing, it's mostly a question of understanding how we affect our planet.

There can be several degrees of attitude mankind is capable of. Some are more paranoid than others, but basing your argument in one extreme of the issue won't prove you right.

Means: I just don't believe the world will end but i do think we are capable of doing a substantial damage to our planet. Not realizing this view it's like not understanding how complicated, sometimes fragile, our balance with the environment is. It's like not seeing the big picture.

You can deal with extremes, black and white, "the planet is ok" vs die hard environmentalist , but understand some people are just gray and don't go with flawed arguments from both sides.


"It seems as though my state-funded math degree has failed me. Let the lashings commence." -- DailyTech Editor-in-Chief Kristopher Kubicki











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