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Hardware Triple Layer, 51GB HD DVD Approved by DVD Forum
Marcus Yam (Blog) - September 10, 2007 12:54 PM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 95 comment(s) - last by timmiser.. on Sep 12 at 1:09 AM

Will Toshiba's latest third-generation players support 51GB discs? Only time will tell.
HD DVD can now boast a 1GB storage advantage over Blu-ray Disc

When comparing the two leading high-definition optical storage formats, the immediate difference between the two is that Blu-ray Disc can store 20GB more than HD DVD. Of course, the HD DVD side had its answer to the apparent deficiency when Toshiba announced at the Consumer Electronics Show 2007 that had developed a triple-layer HD DVD-ROM (read only) disc with a capacity of 51 gigabytes.

The 51GB standard announced early this year, has finally been approved by the DVD Forum – the body responsible for the DVD and HD DVD standard. The 51GB HD DVD standard, which was submitted by Toshiba in April, received approval on August 31, 2007, according to Screen Digest.

HD DVD discs hold 15GB per layer. In order to reach a dual-layer Blu-ray Disc-besting capacity, an extra 2GB per layer was squeezed in, for a total of 51GB. Toshiba states that continued improvement in disc mastering technology has achieved further minimization in the recording pit, allowing for the boost in capacity to 17GB in single layer and a full 51GB on a single-sided triple-layer disc.

The new disc shares the same disc structure as standard DVD and previously announced HD DVD formats: two 0.6-mm thick discs bonded back-to-back. According to Toshiba, the added cost to produce discs with the third layer is minimal, thanks to the use of the same physical disc structure as DVD.

Right now, it is still unclear if the 51GB media requires any change in hardware specification. Should the 51GB HD DVD be incompatible with existing hardware, then current owners of HD DVD players may be left in a situation even less desirable than the Blu-ray Disc Association’s decision to mandate a hardware change this fall. Neither the DVD Forum nor Toshiba has indicated if the new media requires an upgraded optical assembly.

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Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By ZipSpeed on 9/10/2007 1:35:50 PM , Rating: 3
Let's hope the current players will be firmware upgradeable. If it is, that would be a huge advantage over BRD seeing that anyone who bought a HD-DVD would gain this bonus without have to fork $$$ for a new player. If not, let's all do a collective sigh as these hardware upgrades will never end as one association attempts to one-up the other. Seriously, final specifications NEEDS to be addressed otherwise mass adoption will never be a possibly as everyone will continue to wait on the sidelines.




RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By walk2k on 9/10/07, Rating: -1
RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 2:01:48 PM , Rating: 5
> "They will not be compatible with current video players..."

quote:
According to Toshiba, its entire line of HD-DVD players will be able to read these new three layer, 51GB discs, but will require a firmware update to do so.
http://www.psu.com/Toshiba-gains-51GB-HD-DVD-appro...

> "why would it be a "huge advantage over BRD"

Because this would give HD-DVD a size and cost advantage over Blu Ray.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By isorfir on 9/10/2007 2:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to Toshiba, its entire line of HD-DVD players


What about non-Toshiba HD-DVD players?


By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 2:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
Just a guess, but if its possible with a firmware upgrade for one player, its probably so for all.


By ArneBjarne on 9/10/2007 2:33:14 PM , Rating: 5
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=1154...

Question from AVS:

quote:

Originally Posted by ECH
Will all TL51 HD titles be fully compatible with "ALL" HD players? If not, which are?


Answered by Amir:

quote:
Testing is going to start soon. Until then, there is no answer.

Please keep in mind that just because the format gets approved, it doesn't mean it gets used. So if TL-51 is not compatible with current players, the studios may choose to not adopt it and its applications will remain for specialized situations where this doesn't matter.

Then there are in between scenarios such as getting 34 gigabyte HD DVDs (two layers out of three in TL-51). Or having two layers compatible and the third layer holding things that don't matter (PC software, portable video, etc.).

Last but not least, let me say that the interest in forums around TL-51 is about 100X of the people in the HD DVD industry . Of course, if TL-51 proves fully compatible, this may change. But for most of us, TL-51 is a non-event. No different than how an Honda owner thinks wrt to Honda racing. It is cool if Toshiba can pull it off. But nothing in our strategy relies on it existing.
__________________
Amir
Microsoft (HD DVD insider)
VC-1 video codec insider in BD/HD DVD
Ask me questions about HD DVD here


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Visual on 9/11/2007 5:52:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What about non-Toshiba HD-DVD players?

That's a great joke, man. Cracked me up, really.

For those that didn't get it, there are no non-toshiba hd-dvd players, yet.
There are couple models that are toshibas rebadged under other brand, and supposedly a couple new manufacturers are preparing to start their own products very soon, but none yet.


By abhaxus on 9/11/2007 7:19:55 PM , Rating: 2
There will very shortly be a very, very sexy Integra player out there :)


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Keeir on 9/10/2007 3:20:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Because this would give HD-DVD a size and cost advantage over Blu Ray.


Did I miss pricing and cost information? Otherwise, it would seem that some HD-DVD disks have an absolute cost advantage and some HD-DVD disks may have an absolute size advantage (after all, this is not shipping media, and Blu-Ray may ship a disk significantly larger than 51 GB by the time this disk does ship) but a cost to size advantage may or may not exist.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Locutus465 on 9/10/2007 4:02:42 PM , Rating: 2
There must be a cost advantage to OEM's since there is deffonetly a cost advantage (at least in hardware) for the customers... As far as per-disk cost, there's enough to infer that these disks are not expensive to make, but frankly that means zip to the customer, the savings won't be passed on to us.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By Keeir on 9/10/2007 4:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
No no

you missed what I was trying to say

Its clear that a HD-DVD single layer disc is less expensive than a Blu-Ray single layer disc.

Its clear that this HD-DVD triple layer disc is bigger than a Blu-Ray double layer disc

it is not clear that a special (17 gigs per layer rather than 15) triple layer HD-DVD disc is cheaper than a Blu-Ray doubler layer disc


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By masher2 (blog) on 9/10/2007 4:35:46 PM , Rating: 2
> "Its clear that a HD-DVD single layer disc is less expensive than a Blu-Ray single layer disc"

Dual-layer HD-DVDs are cheaper than single-layer BD discs. Given that, it seems a reasonable assumption that triple-layer HD-dVDs will be cheaper than dual-layer BDs.

However, the point is essentially moot, as the price differential between the two media is rapidly dropping and few discs would likely be released in the triple-layer format anyway, as nearly all Hollywood films fit easily within 30GB. The 51GB limit is important for bragging rights, but not much else.


By theflux on 9/10/2007 8:21:07 PM , Rating: 2
How much cheaper?

Can you post your sources?


By deeznuts on 9/10/2007 11:26:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dual-layer HD-DVDs are cheaper than single-layer BD discs. Given that, it seems a reasonable assumption that triple-layer HD-dVDs will be cheaper than dual-layer BDs.
You might end up being 100% correct, but that is not a reasonable assumption, unless you have some sources or more information.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By mars777 on 9/11/2007 8:12:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dual-layer HD-DVDs are cheaper than single-layer BD discs. Given that


Given what? AFAIR HDDVD discs are a bit cheaper to produce than BluRay discs. So giving a bit of extra price to a HDDVD can only make it cost nearly equal to a BD disc...

Given a dual layer HDDVD costs nearly equal as a single layer BD disc and has equal capacity.

Given THAT you can only assume that the price difference will grow to the same price difference that is now between the two when BlueRay goes to double layer.

But a double layer BD disc had 100GB and that equals to a 4 layer HDDVD... so this kind of comparison is not fair... with every layer a BD disc grow the capacity difference.


By steven975 on 9/11/2007 12:13:43 PM , Rating: 2
except nothing is on the horizon for Blu-Ray.

all the demos of multi-layered BDs required modified optics.


By MrPoletski on 9/11/2007 8:25:18 AM , Rating: 2
Good point well made.

It's also not clear, however, whether sony are just gonna bung a 3rd layer on their discs in response...

They already have a mandated hardware change in the future (which sounds yet to be finalised) so they could just future proof players then for 3 layer operation.


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By GNStudios on 9/10/2007 4:26:24 PM , Rating: 2
only in ROM-mode. What about the writable and re-writable discs?


RE: Let's hope for firmware upgradability
By timmiser on 9/10/2007 6:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
There are no writable or re-writable HD-DVD discs.