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Third generation Toyota Prius
Even mighty Toyota can't escape harsh economic times

The downturn in the economy isn't only affecting the Big 3 as some may wish to believe. The credit crunch coupled with massive job losses has led to a serious downturn in car sales as well. While the Big 3 have definitely been hit the hardest, even industry stalwarts like Toyota and Honda are finding that they can't be as aggressive as they have been in the past with their development/production cycle.

In the case of Toyota, the company has put the brakes on its eighth North American automobile plant. "Due to the uncertainty of the market, it is impossible to say at this time when production will begin," noted the company in a press statement. "Toyota continues to evaluate its operations globally and reduce production as necessary to match the weak market."

Workers at the new $300M Mississippi assembly plant -- which currently stands at 90% complete -- were to build current and future versions of the Prius hybrid. However, even Toyota's fuel-efficient Prius hasn't been able to escape lagging sales numbers. According to Reuters, Prius sales were down 48% for November year-over-year.

The steep drop in Prius sales, along with a 34% decline in automobile sales altogether for Toyota in November, and a 92-day car inventory are all cited as reasons for slowing down its expansion plans.

Reuters adds that Toyota will still complete the outer structure of the Mississippi assembly plant, but will instead wait to install the production machinery at a later date.

Toyota's next generation Prius will makes its official debut next year at the Detroit Auto Show. The vehicle, however, was first leaked on the internet in October.



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So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/2008 9:53:21 AM , Rating: 5
When there is a recession and car buying slows down, it affects all car manufacturers and they should cut production to match the decreased demand? NO F'IN WAY!!




RE: So Wait...
By TomZ on 12/16/2008 9:55:53 AM , Rating: 5
Actually, this is going to be news to most Americans, who think only the Big Three are having problems due to their own incompetence. The reality is that the automotive industry in general is in the toilet - Toyota and Honda included.


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/2008 10:12:17 AM , Rating: 4
I normally lean towards people being pretty stupid, but when an economy is in the toilet, I really don't think anyone is that surprised by it. I have a feeling people assume that cause the news talk about Detroit more, they are somehow more hit by the recession than others. The reality is, they are just poorly run.


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/2008 10:18:17 AM , Rating: 3
Just realized this is probably a bit misworded. What I meant was people think that other people think that because the news is always talking about Detroit in trouble, the average person thinks they are the only ones hit by the recession. From what I have encountered, they all seem to realize it was just bad management.


RE: So Wait...
By phxfreddy on 12/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So Wait...
By Lord 666 on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So Wait...
By omnicronx on 12/16/2008 11:09:27 AM , Rating: 3
Whats your point here? That all Prius drivers are smug Obama supporting smokers? I guess that means all truck drivers are troop supporting, bush lovers because they all have a 'support our troops' sticker.. Oh and they all listen to country music of course..

You see what you want to see.. just like when you learn a new word, you start noticing it far more while reading, even though you have probably seen it many times before.


RE: So Wait...
By Lord 666 on 12/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So Wait...
By twhittet on 12/16/2008 11:48:22 AM , Rating: 4
"another milestone in smugness....instead of driving a Prius and its a "I voted for Obama" pin."
AND
"Prius drivers are smokers and Obama is a smoker."
AND
"My wife and I now have a new game while driving in counting people driving priuses and smoking. We went 3/3 with one car having two smokers. Can't tell you how many Priuses I've seen with Obama08 stickers on them"

I think by both the transitive and the associative theory, that yes, you think all Prius drivers are smug, Obama supporting smokers, and that you have difficulty reading your own post.


RE: So Wait...
By Dharl on 12/16/2008 12:28:01 PM , Rating: 2
... or he could be saying that the Flavor of the Month for these mindless people is to now Drive a Prius and Smoke.

Driving the Prius = Attempting to be Greenier
Smoking = Like their Idol Obama

At least that's how I read his post. Then again what do I know... when I see a Prius I think of Jeff Dunham.


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: So Wait...
By Dharl on 12/16/2008 2:07:57 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
So a Prius brings thoughts of bad comedy? That must suck.


I'll kill you! ~Akhmed


RE: So Wait...
By Lord 666 on 12/16/2008 1:43:35 PM , Rating: 1
Generally speaking, yes.

I find it ironic that certain people who are interested in Priuses also smoke. To me, its an oxymoron as these are the same people who brag they get 45mpg or convert to plug-in thus sticking it to Big Oil. Yet, they do this with a butt hanging from their mouth and are owned by Big Tobacco. If you compare the gasoline savings driving a Prius vs. the overall lifetime costs of smoking (dollar and health), these people are complete morons and hypocrites.

The same for Obama who promised to stop smoking yet dodged questions if he fell off the wagon. For Obama, it is about integrity. If you make a commitment, stick to it.


RE: So Wait...
By Davelo on 12/16/2008 3:47:45 PM , Rating: 4
I don't see what the big deal about a smoking Obama. If the man wants to smoke so be it. Whatever happened to freedom in this country? As long as his smoke is not bothering anybody, so what.


RE: So Wait...
By djc208 on 12/16/2008 3:52:51 PM , Rating: 4
Funny part is Obama drives (or drove) a Chrysler 300C with the 5.7L HEMI. Which is about as far from a Prius as you can get.

Comes in handy for outrunning people in Priuses though.


RE: So Wait...
By Nik00117 on 12/16/2008 4:30:04 PM , Rating: 2
Thats actually a very fun car to drive.

I don't care about fuel effienecy.

My dream car is a Dodge Viper (have plans to pick one up in 3 years)

I sell Chrysler 300Cs which is what your referring too. You hop into one hit the gas and feel the smile go across your face.


RE: So Wait...
By Guttersnipe on 12/16/2008 12:20:27 PM , Rating: 3
basically yea, smug.

instead of doing something like supporting american makes who give their workers things progressives say they are for like healthcare..they'd rather buy foreign and sip on their fair trade coffee like the frauds they are.


RE: So Wait...
By itzmec on 12/16/2008 4:42:04 PM , Rating: 2
nah, i'd say most people buy imports because they still run good after 100,000 mi


RE: So Wait...
By Guttersnipe on 12/17/2008 12:31:04 AM , Rating: 2
no longer true. american makes crept back up the consumer reports reliability reports long ago.

if you want to know what we are up against, the economist had an article a while back that mentioned how nationalistic the car purchasing habits of countries like germany/france/japan are. it goes way beyond any potential quality differences. perhaps we should do the same.


RE: So Wait...
By TomZ on 12/16/2008 12:51:21 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Nah, I look at another milestone in smugness... election of Obama. There is now a new status symbol for these people instead of driving a Prius and its a "I voted for Obama" pin.

I'm proud to say that I voted against Obama. While I of course hope that he does some good for our country - we can use an exceptional leader right now - I'm against the liberal, socialist agenda he seems to support. Hopefully I'm wrong and he moves more towards the center - you know - the center where most Americans are!


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/2008 12:57:42 PM , Rating: 3
Maybe you didn't realize this, but the point of voting is to vote for the person you deem best for the job, not against someone you don't like or against a particular party.


RE: So Wait...
By rcc on 12/16/2008 1:07:35 PM , Rating: 2
But sometimes in our system, all you can do is vote for the person you think will do the least damage in the next 4 years. Isn't that sad.

So, while I'd like to be able to agree with you, it's not always true.

And yes, I realize you can vote for anyone you want. But the reality today is that a vote for anyone other than the two major parties is a waste of a vote, a meaningless statement to make people feel better about themselves. Hopefully that will change some day, but for now it's the system we have.


RE: So Wait...
By Sahkuhnder on 12/16/2008 2:45:03 PM , Rating: 5
Once more we voters were stuck having to choose between Giant Douche vs. Turd Sandwich.

I would love to someday get to vote FOR someone for President instead of having to vote AGAINST the choice that I think will do the most damage.


RE: So Wait...
By FITCamaro on 12/17/2008 8:58:11 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah and he did that. Voting for McCain wasn't fun. But as far as who I trusted to keep our country safe and not shove a complete socialist regime down our throats, he won the argument.

McCain is far from conservative. But at least he wasn't pushing for massive increases in government spending. And while he believes in amnesty, I don't think he'd pursue it with the same gusto that Obama will. Same with the cap and trade system.

My only hope is that Obama and our new liberal controlled Congress screws things up enough that people realize their mistake but not so much that we can't fix it after they're all gone.


RE: So Wait...
By Felofasofa on 12/16/2008 7:33:26 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'm proud to say that I voted against Obama.

No doubt you are still wearing your Sarah Palin pin.


RE: So Wait...
By TomZ on 12/17/2008 12:29:18 PM , Rating: 2
In this voter's opinion, the choice of Palin was totally idiotic. The concept of "maverick" never really resonated with voters.


RE: So Wait...
By eyebeeemmpawn on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So Wait...
By Amiga500 on 12/16/2008 10:47:07 AM , Rating: 2
Hey brain-dead.

Did you not happen to notice the market crashed under a Republican President?


RE: So Wait...
By omnicronx on 12/16/2008 11:17:08 AM , Rating: 5
Nope, its Obamas fault, and Clinton, Kennedy and don't forget Roosevelt.. but I think we all know that we can trace back all fault to Jefferson.. He really should have seen this one coming.


RE: So Wait...
By Expunge on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So Wait...
By ebakke on 12/16/2008 11:37:04 AM , Rating: 4
Back in the real world, it's rarely the fault of just one person or party. This situation is no different, and the reality is, all three of the aforementioned men share blame in the current economic fiasco. So do others.


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So Wait...
By ebakke on 12/16/2008 11:51:21 AM , Rating: 5
In their defense, it is much easier to be a sheep.


RE: So Wait...
By othercents on 12/16/2008 1:51:15 PM , Rating: 2
Yup.. a sheep following a wolf. I don't see any problems with that. No wonder the wolf rarely gets hurt.


RE: So Wait...
By rcc on 12/16/2008 1:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
Regardless of who's majority, etc. The blame lies squarely on those 535 people. Everyone else is along for the ride. Others can influence those 535, but only to the extent that the Senators and Representatives let them. Which is generally entirely too much.


RE: So Wait...
By ebakke on 12/16/2008 1:05:43 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget the people within the industries that are in trouble. Management in several businesses share some of the blame as well.


RE: So Wait...
By othercents on 12/16/2008 1:54:42 PM , Rating: 2
They are our elected officials and we are their voice. While we like to blame them for making these decisions ultimately we were the ones who decided which decision they should make. This was done by either not voicing our opinion or voicing the wrong opinion.

Other


RE: So Wait...
By rcc on 12/17/2008 4:57:26 PM , Rating: 2
I'd have to disagree with that to some extent.

While we the peeps did in fact elect them, we did so based on what they told us they would do. What they actually do after getting hit by lobbyists is another story entirely. So, I stand by my original premise.

However, it is incumbent on us to give them immediate and plentiful feed back when they do something we don't like, or do like for that matter. And also to get their asses out of there if their actions are not in compliance with the majority of the people in their areas.

That is the part that we the peeps fall down on most severely.


RE: So Wait...
By Fanon on 12/16/2008 3:53:22 PM , Rating: 2
I agree mostly with you. Freddie and Fannie getting to the point it did is the fault of members of the Democrat party. However, Republicans and Democrats alike voted for the bailout, and the President signed it. So while the initial problem was due to one party, both parties, as a whole, are to blame.


RE: So Wait...
By itzmec on 12/16/2008 4:44:04 PM , Rating: 2
nah, the blame is on the people who voted in the libs and the rightys


RE: So Wait...
By mvpx02 on 12/16/2008 11:24:54 AM , Rating: 4
A president's economic policy is best evaluated by viewing the 5-10 years after his term ends.

Clinton benefitted from one of the greatest technological booms we've ever had (and spent money like it was his job). The economy was destined for a big "reset" well before Bush ever took office.

I've always felt that part of the reason we went to war was to delay and smooth out the fall.

Most of the bad mortgages we're dealing with now were the result of Clinton Administration policies mandating weaker requirements for lending as well as more diversified lending, regardless of individual qualifications.

It's not one president's fault, it's not really any one person's fault, and it's not even necessarily a bad thing. Economics is cyclical.

The best thing is to keep moving forward and let it work itself out. The one thing we don't need is someone to come in and get us tied-into a bunch of socialist long-term spending plans (in attempt to "fix it") which will just hamper the economy in the long run (see Social Security)...

DOH!


RE: So Wait...
By neihrick1 on 12/16/2008 11:31:13 AM , Rating: 2
pretty much, people that weren't even alive were getting loans. People were lying about incomes without it being checked. and then when banks found that people were unable to pay back, they closed on them, and then raised interest rates on everyone else to recoup. that led to more people being unable to pay, and it just kept piling up. and here we are people in debt, banks in debt, credit is gonna be screwed for a while.


RE: So Wait...
By eyebeeemmpawn on 12/16/2008 12:58:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Most of the bad mortgages we're dealing with now were the result of Clinton Administration policies mandating weaker requirements for lending as well as more diversified lending, regardless of individual qualifications.


You can't blame Clinton for the greedy, predatory lending. Regardless of policy, if you give some one a variable interest loan based upon their income, then jack up the rate so there is no way they are able to pay, there is going to be a problem.


RE: So Wait...
By othercents on 12/16/2008 2:04:42 PM , Rating: 2
What do you expect people to do something that is contrary to their nature? Tighter controls is better to weed out those people who are greedy and predatory. However that wasn't the only problem. When good lenders were punish for not making enough sub-prime loans then you start to mess with the balance of the system.

However if this was the only problem then we wouldn't have the current housing crisis we see today. It took multiple issues to cause the problem. Greedy lenders, overzealous sales people, uninformed buyers, and an overall financial slowdown.

America has been living on credit and we need to start looking at being debt free with savings to spare.

Other


RE: So Wait...
By Ringold on 12/16/2008 3:21:34 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You can't blame Clinton for the greedy, predatory lending.


What an excuse. We need to make up our minds in this nation if we are adults after age 18 or not. If so, then you need to get over it. If not, then we need to push the drinking age way back, and perhaps not allow "children" to enter in to legally binding contracts of any kind before the age of, what, 30? 40?

There was some acupunturist woman in Miami on the evening news the other night. She'd bought 4 or 5 homes with 'exotic' mortgages during the peak. She straight up admitted she didn't shop around for rates, she didn't even look at loan documents, and she had no understanding of the mortgage products in the least. And yet she went ahead and obligated herself to who knows how many millions of dollars worth of debt repayments. I say she was an irresponsible adult who should be forced in to bankruptcy due to her own idiocy. You apparently feel bad for her because predatory lenders should've, what, held her hand and read her loan documents to her, talking down in language a 1st grader could understand just to be safe?

When did individual responsibility become illegal? Did Carter do that and I didn't notice?


RE: So Wait...
By TomZ on 12/16/2008 6:17:31 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
When did individual responsibility become illegal?
I agree with you on this point, but the responsibility (or lack thereof) also has to be shared with the industry. Banks should not have made loans where there was a high liklihood of the lender not being able to keep their obligations. It is very clear that loan standards had become too low - there developed a great incentive for lenders to take on way too much risk.


RE: So Wait...
By Fanon on 12/16/2008 4:22:05 PM , Rating: 2
Greedy and predatory or not, they were forced into that position, or they would've been punished for refusing the loan. The ultimate bad guy in this whole mess is government and its involvement in business.


RE: So Wait...
By Solandri on 12/17/2008 6:47:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Regardless of policy, if you give some one a variable interest loan based upon their income, then jack up the rate so there is no way they are able to pay, there is going to be a problem.

That's a really cynical way to view people. I mean the people getting the loans, not the lenders. You seem to be implying that the people getting the loans were incapable of determining for themselves how much they could afford to pay.

There are two parties to any business transaction. It is the responsibility of each party to insure that the transaction meets their needs and capabilities - to look out for their own best interests. The lenders did not raise the interest rates. They fully disclosed (in most cases) that the interest rate was tied to the Fed discount rate. It is not the lender's responsibility to determine if a variable rate can be tolerated by the borrower's future finances. It is the borrower's responsibility.

Where the system broke on the lender's side was that the people making the loans immediately turned around and resold the loans to someone else (sometimes to investors, sometimes to Fannie and Freddie). As long as someone else was buying those loans, that relieved them from any need to properly assess the risk of default. That opened up the door to improper documentation for the loans, essentially allowing them to lie about the actual risk involved - who cares about that if you aren't the one finally accepting that risk?

You can believe both lenders and borrowers made bad decisions and thus both bear blame for the mortgage mess. Or you can believe borrowers were idiots who were incapable of properly assessing their finances, and thus only the lenders are to blame. Personally I prefer the former.


RE: So Wait...
By ebakke on 12/16/2008 11:49:41 AM , Rating: 5
The President controls the stock market?! Son of a! Here I was, buying and selling stocks under the assumption that everyone else was doing the same and that these purchases/sales were what determined the price. I figured if a bunch of people sold, the price would go down and I could buy it for less (obviously hoping to sell it after other schmucks bought, and drove the price up). Man... I'm going to need a new strategy.


RE: So Wait...
By mvpx02 on 12/16/2008 11:51:01 AM , Rating: 2
lol, I'd vote you up if I hadn't already replied


RE: So Wait...
By Amiga500 on 12/16/2008 1:29:34 PM , Rating: 2
According to the person I replied to, the democrats control the stock market...

I was simply pointing out a rather large fallacy in his argument. :-)


RE: So Wait...
By eyebeeemmpawn on 12/16/2008 12:45:24 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
We have the infrastructure with the internet to have a noncoercive libertarian democracy yet we have what amounts to a Wall Street / Washington Financial Dictatorship.


The Federal Reserve is a scary thing, but it has nothing to do democrats or republicans. I has everything to do with greed and control.

quote:
Thus I encourage any and all economic lessons to be taught. Only when this veil of ignorance and creep towards full on National Socialism will stop.


We've had full blown national socialism for a long time in this country...for the corporations. For everyone else there is cut-throat capitalism. It seems the veil of ignorance enshrouds even you.

quote:
NEVER underestimate the collective ignorance of the people. They vote democrat do they not? You know...the party that has not had a single new idea since 1930!


If your still pointing fingers and blaming democrats/republicans you need to wake up. The political system on the national level is horribly corrupt; you and I get to vote for who gets to sell their vote to Washington lobbyists.

We need:

1) Campaign Finance Reform
2) To put the Reins on the profiteer in the Health Care system. Controlling costs, and finding workable solutions for all income brackets is a necessity. Health Care is a huge cost in any business.
3) Lets take care of these and re-evaluate.

/rant

Sorry, my position has been eliminated, starting Friday :)


RE: So Wait...
By Amiga500 on 12/16/2008 1:31:14 PM , Rating: 2
The political system on the national level is horribly corrupt; you and I get to vote for who gets to sell their vote to Washington lobbyists.

I would vote you up only I've posted already.

Probably the best line I have seen on Dailytech regarding American politics... ever.


RE: So Wait...
By Hiawa23 on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So Wait...
By mvpx02 on 12/16/2008 2:15:07 PM , Rating: 3
I get my fill of promises of hope at church every week.

When it comes to elected leaders, I'd prefer a candidate with a solid grasp of the current situation, a strong understanding of economics, and a good, realistic plan for leading our country to better times... unfortunately none of them were on the ballot.


RE: So Wait...
By rubyxc7 on 12/16/2008 10:47:28 AM , Rating: 2
So I'm well aware that the american automakers have been running their companies poorly however Detroit, in my opinion is singled out not because of the car companies directly but because of their direct effect. The Big 3 (2 whatever) are and have been the lifeblood of detroit since the assembly line. Given that Detroit basically runs on these companies, its plain to sight why Detroit has gone to the toilet, more so than most of the other places being hit by the recession.

As an example, a bank which a fair amount of people in the US should know of, Comerica, started off as Detroit Bank and Trust. They've recently closed up shop here in Detroit and moved their offices to Texas leaving virtually all of their workers jobless.
A major Pfizer research lab employing thousands has been shut down and employees were either laid off or had to relocate.

I'm not directly from Detroit but I'm fairly close, about an hour away. I'd say I'm a bit biased but being that my family has been directly effected by the decline of the Big 3, I can't say that you can put Detroit in the same generic 'Hit By Recession' bin as most other places. For Detroit and for Michigan as well, the recession started years ago.


RE: So Wait...
By rudolphna on 12/16/2008 10:55:35 AM , Rating: 3
Same here. I have several family members in Lorain county ohio, who work for the ford plants there. At this rate, they will all lose their jobs, and will be in huge trouble, especially with a job market as bad as this.


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/2008 11:02:46 AM , Rating: 2
Let me explain this to you as simply as possible. MOVE THE HELL AWAY FROM DETROIT, IT IS A CRAP FACTORY! My god, how have people not figured this out? Detroit is a living hell, either start new industry that doesn't rely on making things, or move.

Wahhh, the place I live is having economic problems. Detroit has sucked for the last 30 years at least, that should have been indication to get the hell out of its vicinity. It is a nexus of joblessness, just leave. It has held the joy of being the murder capital for years, isn't that enough reason to leave right there?

Anyway, this random rant you decided to do has been met by one of my own. The actual subject of my posts had nothing to do with them and more to do with the fact that a recession is a recession.


RE: So Wait...
By rubyxc7 on 12/16/2008 11:12:16 AM , Rating: 1
Right, where do you live? I'll tell the jobless to move to where you live since you don't seem to be having much trouble where you live.

Michigan, especially Detroit tends to draw you in. I'm not quite sure what it is... stockholm syndrome? :O I like this place regardless of what anyone says of how much of a shithole it is. Theres downsides everywhere you go, but theres few places where you feel like you want to stay because you like the area.

As for your initial point about starting a new industry that doesnt rely on making things, tell me a place that doesn't. Does the area where you live only provide services?


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: So Wait...
By mindless1 on 12/16/2008 2:19:05 PM , Rating: 2
Umm, you're not even there and seem to have more of a problem with it than anyone else. Are you just insane?


RE: So Wait...
By Spuke on 12/16/2008 3:13:36 PM , Rating: 1
He makes good points, ranting or not. Why stay in an economic shit house? Why depend on an industry that's been treading water for at least 15 years? I moved to CA from VA for more job opportunities. Miscalculated the competition here and got an education. That turned things around for me big time. Now I'm eying AZ because of the housing market crash and want a cheaper house than the one I'm living in so I can buy a second one and rent it out.


RE: So Wait...
By Suntan on 12/16/2008 1:05:27 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, Des Moines, Iowa is a reasonably large metopolitan area with very little manufacturing (aside from some small farm related stuff.) The city itself is pretty much full of insurance business and has been for a long time.

It's not nearly as big as Detroit, but it's also not a place where your daily commute will take you past 5 cars littered along the road that have most likely been on fire in the past 48 hours (a Detroit trademark I think.)

Seriously, aside from the Redwings, Detroit sucks.

-Suntan


RE: So Wait...
By rubyxc7 on 12/16/2008 1:55:45 PM , Rating: 2
I used to commute in and out of detroit weekly, never saw cars on the side of the road... burning for that matter... the occasional breakdown though...

I was thinking that you'd have to have a place be driven by insurance and medicine to be moderately shielded from the recession. Although, I work for the insurance industry... and yuck.


RE: So Wait...
By lagomorpha on 12/16/2008 7:48:02 PM , Rating: 2
It certainly doesn't help that GM saves little money by cutting back production because their contracts with the UAW require them to pay laid off UAW workers 85% of what they would get if they were working. Without significant changes to these contracts GM cannot hope to continue operating given the reliability expected of modern cars.


RE: So Wait...
By mikefarinha on 12/16/2008 11:18:32 AM , Rating: 2
It's not that people think just the big 3 are having problems. People are smarter than you give them credit for. What is obvious is the recession is exposing the true legitimacy of each company... last I heard Toyota and Honda weren't asking governments for a bail-out.


RE: So Wait...
By mindless1 on 12/16/2008 2:22:25 PM , Rating: 2
Right, because their government has been subsidizing them all along. We keep reading about "poor management" of the big three because ignorance is bliss. Everyone wants someone to blame instead of considering facts.


RE: So Wait...
By Ringold on 12/16/2008 3:41:46 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't have anything to do with much lower labor costs and more efficient businesses from top to bottom. Nope. Nothing at all.

That sounds like the Michigan governor on Meet The Press Sunday. She was trying to say BS like that, and that foreign governments were paying for their workers health care. Mitt Romney kindly pointed out for the uneducated that the foreign governments of Alabama and Texas do not have socialized health care.


RE: So Wait...
By TomZ on 12/16/2008 11:13:28 PM , Rating: 2
Your point would be correct if all the labor costs were at the manufacturing plants, which they are not. The majority of the employees of these companies are located overseas and therefore are beneficiaries of their governments' benefit programs, e.g., government-funded healthcare.


RE: So Wait...
By Oregonian2 on 12/16/2008 4:55:29 PM , Rating: 2
The foreign plants and the US Maker plants are in different states which have different union rules. US Mfgr plants have it a law that requires workers to be part of the UAW. Not so in those states where Toyota, Honda, etc are located (according to news reports anyway). The total cost per hour per employee (including benefits) is extremely higher for the UAW workers (where the benefit parts are more than the wage parts). Shows how effective the UAW is in getting benefits for it's membership. Of course there is the downside of having those great benefits only until the company goes bye-bye. But that's not something of interest to the UAW -- that's the evil company's venue and something for the company to worry about. Or so it appears in the press, not being involved personally I can't really tell (and am not sure those involved know themselves for sure).


RE: So Wait...
By Hiawa23 on 12/16/2008 12:15:10 PM , Rating: 2
I really don't think this is news to most Americans. Most families can't afford to buy jack other than the necessities. The car companies, all of them, like most businesses have had to cut back. The point to this is this. I think most Americans understand that a recession affects all, but Toyota & Honda are not going out of business in a week or two like the American counterpart if they receive a loan due to years of mismanagement.


RE: So Wait...
By walk2k on 12/16/2008 1:20:24 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, it's not news, because Toyota isn't crawling on their knees begging for a handout from the Gov't now are they?

No see, what they do is CUT PRODUCTION when demand slows - something the UAW will not allow the "not-so-big-anymore" 3 to do.

Wake up.


RE: So Wait...
By theapparition on 12/16/2008 3:09:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually, it's not news, because Toyota isn't crawling on their knees begging for a handout from the Gov't now are they?

Wrong.

Toyota, Nissan and Honda are all asking the government for help. Thier government. And guess what, they're going to get it too.

quote:
No see, what they do is CUT PRODUCTION when demand slows - something the UAW will not allow the "not-so-big-anymore" 3 to do.

Not so big 3, huh. GM is still the largest car manufacturer in the world. We get it, you don't like the american car companies, just don't go spewing untruths.

Be it by loans or bankruptcy, all will be financed from tax-payer money. You're going to pay whether you like it or not.


RE: So Wait...
By Ringold on 12/16/2008 3:45:57 PM , Rating: 2
Provide evidence that Nissan, for example, will receive foreign government money directly sent to its North American operations. Links or didn't happen.

quote:
GM is still the largest car manufacturer in the world. We get it, you don't like the american car companies, just don't go spewing untruths.


Toyota sells nearly as many. Compare their financial performance in 2007, a year with a strong global economy. GM lost billions, TM made billions. I love various GM and Ford models, dislike has nothing to do with it for people, only financial realities.


RE: So Wait...
By theapparition on 12/17/2008 11:54:23 AM , Rating: 2
How's this for starters:

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/MP39s-plea-to-h...

But I like how you tempered you rebuke with "directly sent to NA operations". What does that matter? If Opel received an infusion of cash that would directly help GM's NA operations. Nice try.

I'm not going to argue with you on GM's past performance. Clearly they did bad. But fact remains that GM is still the largest automovtive company in the world. 1 in 5 cars still sold in the US is a GM product.

And for the record, I'd hardly call 2007 a year with a strong global economy. In case you didn't notice, gas prices were at record levels in 2007 and the shift from Trucks/SUVs towards cars is the single cause of trouble for the domestic makers.


RE: So Wait...
By MrPoletski on 12/16/2008 2:16:27 PM , Rating: 2
And the DRAM industry, and the Housing market, and the banking industry.

I wonder what industry is next? We are going to end up bailing out the whole of planet earth with money borrowed from the Ferengi.


RE: So Wait...
By eye smite on 12/16/2008 10:32:47 AM , Rating: 2
You're right, they should just stay at full production and go broke like the big 3. lol


RE: So Wait...
By Gzus666 on 12/16/2008 10:55:05 AM , Rating: 2
If only you could understand sarcasm...


RE: So Wait...
By rubyxc7 on 12/16/2008 11:02:48 AM , Rating: 3
If only YOU could understand sarcasm... :P


RE: So Wait...
By The0ne on 12/16/2008 2:14:15 PM , Rating: 2
if only he reads and understand his own words that he shouldn't really be saying anything about others when he "honestly" doesn't care about anyone. A reason why you don't care about anyone would lead someone to believe you should just not have anything to do or say about anyone right? Must be a pretty safe place always escaping to that type of thought process.


Professional Smugness
By Mitch101 on 12/16/2008 10:17:46 AM , Rating: 3
NOOOOOOOooooooo!!!

I will be in the market for a car in the next 2 years.

I have been pushing back my purchase until there is more than just a few options like those from FORD, Chrysler and GM. Hoping a little competition will cause price wars and the vehicles like the Prius are even more mature. Not mocking it but I have seen some people claim 100MPG out of modified ones which I felt might be more main stream in 2 years time. Maybe even from the manufacturer. Import them if you must please.

I don't care if gas is 20 cents a gallon I don't want to be caught with a gas guzzler when they pull the price of a gallon going to $4.00+ again in a short time span. I don't need an SUV or Escalade to go to work. I would drive a go kart if it were legal and safe.




RE: Professional Smugness
By Spivonious on 12/16/2008 10:21:40 AM , Rating: 2
I'm waiting for the Fusion hybrid. Should be right around the time we start having kids, so the extra two doors will be helpful.

From all I've heard, Ford is in no danger of going belly up, with or without the bailout.


RE: Professional Smugness
By Gzus666 on 12/16/08, Rating: -1
RE: Professional Smugness
By rudolphna on 12/16/2008 11:03:13 AM , Rating: 1
Gzus, I have respect for you, you seem to be an intelligent, knowledgable person. I have no idea what experiences youve had with fords yourself. All I can say, is if you work as a mechanic, then chances are is ALL you see are broken cars..

I mean, I doubt people bring in working cars just for the fun of it, you know? Now, Ive told you this before, I own, and have owned many fords over the years, as has my family. We have never had major problems like the ones you describe. Personally, I love my expedition, and will likely be buying a fusion, because my cousin, and a few of my friends have bought one, and they love them. You are entitled to your opinion.

Im not, nor have I ever said Honda and toyota make worse cars than the Big 3, they do make good cars. I have driven a few as rentals on vacation. A Honda CRV, a Toyota Corolla, as a matter of fact. My point simply is, that Ford makes good, decent cars in my experience. The majority of people dont have problems with their ford or GM car, but the small percentage that do make such a big stink about it that it affects everyone.


RE: Professional Smugness
By Gzus666 on 12/16/08, Rating: 0
RE: Professional Smugness
By rudolphna on 12/16/2008 11:07:11 AM , Rating: 1
I'm not trying to start an argument this time, Im kind of tired of them, as you might imagine. If you dont like ford, fine. But dont go around telling other people ford is shitty, never buy a ford, when you probably havent even owned one yourself. I dont say, dont buy a toyota or honda...


RE: Professional Smugness