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Toyota's new site "A Glass of Water"
Company says approach could reduce drivers' gas consumption by 10 percent

Amid a wealth of ideas to cut fuel consumption from electric vehicles to hybrids to stop-start engines, Toyota believes that perhaps an equivalent opportunity to save fuel is sitting in drivers' hands... or more aptly on their dashes.

The company has launched a site called "A Glass of Water".  The site proposes that users drive as if they have a glass of water on their dashboard.  Of course they don't actually suggest driving with a real glass of water on the dash -- that could get messy.

To avoid spilling your imaginary glass of water, Toyota suggests accelerating gradually and smoothly, leaving space between your car and things in front of it, and braking slowly.  Green bloggers EcoTrekker offer an additional list of suggestions for "hypermiling" -- using driving techniques to increase your fuel economy.  Toyota offers its own list of suggestions here.

Fortunately for iPhone owners, the abstract imagery of the Toyota program can get a little more complete.  They can download a "A Glass of Water" app that uses the iPhone's accelerometer to simulate a sloshing glass of water.  Drive wisely, or you avoid spilling that digital glass.

Toyota says that ultimately drivers that diligently stick to the program can gain at least 10 percent in fuel economy.

Glass of water aren't Toyota's only fuel saving efforts, though.  The company's Prius hybridvehicle has sold more units than any other hybrid on the market, by far.  Overall Toyota has sold over 2 million hybrid vehicles.  It is currently working on electric vehicle designs with American automaker Tesla Motors.

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Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By MrTeal on 7/23/2010 4:11:13 PM , Rating: 5
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with driving intelligently and safely. I like to leave space between myself and the car in front on me. I accelerate reasonably and brake smoothly enough that you don't feel it when the suspension unloads when you come to a full stop. But...

Hypermilers bug me to no end. I'm talking about the ones that coast up hills on the highway slowing down to 50mph in a 60 zone when they aren't towing anything, then accelerate to 70 going down the other side which keeps you from passing them without really motoring. The same ones that start from an intersection and only get up to 50% of the speed limit because a light 5 blocks up the road is red, while you're stuck behind them and waiting to turn off a couple blocks up. You can tell the bad ones when you pass them on a bicycle. It wouldn't be so bad if they were just bad drivers, the road is full of them. It's that they're so damned conceited about it.

Bah




RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Flunk on 7/23/2010 4:20:44 PM , Rating: 2
Keeping a decent amount of room between your car and the car in front of you doesn't really count as hypermiling. It's just common sense that you want to actually have enough space to stop suddenly if you have to.

Tailgaters are a huge pet peeve of mine, don't try it behind me of I'm going to cut the gas and coast until you get the message.

My point being, hypermiling is annoying but not as annoying as people who drive dangerously. Especially not when they ram into the back (or any side) of your car.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By MrTeal on 7/23/2010 4:31:48 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Keeping a decent amount of room between your car and the car in front of you doesn't really count as hypermiling. It's just common sense that you want to actually have enough space to stop suddenly if you have to.


Never said it did. In fact, the opposite is true, hypermilers often tailgate behind people to use their draft and increase their fuel economy. I've tried explaining with limited success that doing that increases the drag on the car in front of them and doesn't really help the planet all the much.

quote:
Tailgaters are a huge pet peeve of mine, don't try it behind me of I'm going to cut the gas and coast until you get the message.
My point being, hypermiling is annoying but not as annoying as people who drive dangerously. Especially not when they ram into the back (or any side) of your car.


Like I said, it's not so much their actions on the road, it's their attitude about it. From the admittedly few of them I know, they drive as if they are the only drivers on the road and the disruption to traffic flows is minor to them maintaining high fuel economy.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Alexstarfire on 7/23/2010 5:06:25 PM , Rating: 1
I'm no aerodynamics expert or anything, but how does a car driving behind you affect the dragon the car in front of you? I could see this being an issue if you expanded the area behind the car that has negative air pressure in it, but I don't think that's going to be much of an issue unless you're within 10 ft of a car. And if you're that close to the car in front of you going at speed then you have bigger things to worry about.

But perhaps you know something I don't, care to explain?

I can agree with you to some extent on your last comment though. It's a two fold issue though. There are a lot of cars that simply don't want to go around when there is no reason not to. I'm talking about the ones that have a lane wide open, can see way in advance how the car in front of them is going, and also isn't turning/getting off any time soon. I have no sympathy for them. I am also not one of those people who ends up being 10 under the speed limit though, although if you know what they are doing then you should be able to adjust accordingly. Granted I don't know the full ramifications for someone driving this way. It'd be impossible for me to figure out on my own. I can say that they should only be trying to draft large trucks like semis. Of which they can reduce their drag by well over 20% and there is no way that you could possible increase the drag on a car in front of you by that much.

I find that those who speed are the ones complaining the most, and around Atlanta that's about everyone. They just want something to complain about really. These are the people who pretty much tailgate you no matter how fast you're going. That's just my observation around Atlanta though.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By rcc on 7/23/2010 5:30:10 PM , Rating: 4
Back in the 70's gas crunch, several people got the crap kicked out of them for drafting big rigs. Yes, it saves you gas, but it costs them. The energy has to come from somewhere. Granted there is a net increase in efficiency, but you have to be very close to a vehicle near yours in size, and it has a negative affect on the other person.

As I recall, truck drivers were cranky about a lot of things back then. Their routes and gear ratios were set to maximize effieciency at 65 and suddenly there were all these people doing 55 in front of them. Ok, not all the people, but enough to annoy them : )


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By rcc on 7/23/2010 5:31:29 PM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah, and the gimmick back then was to "drive like there is an egg under your accelerator". Messy.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By HotFoot on 7/23/2010 6:16:48 PM , Rating: 5
actually, safety onsiderations asside, being closely tailed will slightly reduce your drag. The pressure field created by the trailing body will effectively bouy the frongt body.

The effect is miniscule. What isn't miniscule is the risk to both vehicle's safety.

Further to safety benfits, following a safe distance behind improves the elasticity of traffic, and reduces the likelihood of waves of slow spots propagating through heavy traffic. Of course, most drivers have to drive this way for it to work.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By rcc on 7/23/2010 6:34:30 PM , Rating: 3
For that to work you have to be within a couple feet of the lead vehicle, and they need to be about the same size.

Someone drafting an 18 wheeler 20-30 feet back is just catching a free ride, and is likely to find out what "jakes" are very quickly.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By spread on 7/23/10, Rating: -1
RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By rcc on 7/26/2010 5:56:15 PM , Rating: 3
It not magic, it's physics. When you are drafting in a race car you effectively create a longer single vehicle that is more aerodynamically efficient.

When you tuck in behind a big rig you are getting pulled along in the column of low pressure air being pulled behind the truck, increasing his drag, and effectively his gross weight. You burn a lot less gas, he burns more.

Back in the 70s I knew guys that claimed their 10 MPH boats were getting 20-25 MPH by drafting big rigs. Then the truckers figured out why their mileage started sucking and started getting really pissed.


By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 6:48:18 PM , Rating: 3
I think you need to refresh your aerodynamics knowledge. If you fill in the negative pressure area behind a vehicle then there will be less force pulling the vehicle backwards. You'd affect drag on a semi-truck more if you were riding next to him since you'd push air onto the truck causing some friction. It'd be completely negligible, but it'd have the benefit of actually having a detrimental affect on the semi-truck rather than an imagined one.

As I said earlier, you'd have to find a way to make the negative pressure area bigger to increase the drag the semi-truck would feel. I don't know how you could do that in any normal passenger vehicle.... except perhaps an original Hummer.

If I happen to be wrong then please link me to an article stating otherwise.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By angryplayer on 7/25/2010 2:38:00 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, at 100ft behind a rig, you get about 10% better economy. At suicide distance, you can probably idle.

And no, big rigs don't have to push harder. In fact, it's easier for the rig if someone is suicide drafting. Because of the shape of the container, it actually creates a bubble behind the container that pulls the air blowing around into it. This creates a suction effect. Put something, like a car, to fill that bubble and the suction is reduced. Kind of like the tailgate up/down myth. Also think of the golf ball. The reason why a dimpled ball travels farther is because the air sticks better to shape, and in doing so, the size of the suction bubble is decreased because the air lets go much later.

I can only fit so much into a comment, but I hope that's enough for skeptics to google real-world examples of the physics.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By ChristopherO on 7/25/2010 4:34:04 PM , Rating: 2
Or rent Mythbusters from your local DVD store. They've covered *all* of these in a pretty significant amount of detail.

I can't remember the fuel-savings, but I think they got to 40% when at a "life threatening" distance from a big-rig. The savings at normal distances just wasn't worth it. You might as well pass so you can at least see the road -- probably safer that way.

They also took a stock Ford, and then covered another one in mud, but dimpled it like a golf ball. Despite the added weight from their clay, the dimples actually saved fuel (can't remember if they weight-equalized the rides with gym weights and such). Nonetheless, I don't see Titleist getting into the car business anytime soon.


By SilthDraeth on 7/28/2010 8:09:48 PM , Rating: 2
What they did with the Ford, was tested it empty, tested it covered in clay, but smoothed to contour of vehicle, and it achieved the same mpg. (Note they did not measure for accelerating and decelerating the vehicle) So the added weight had no affect on the mpg.

Then they tested with the dimples which had an affect.

And the golf ball dimples are to create turbulence, not push the voice further back.

Smooth, a void appears and sucks the ball back, if they break up the airflow creating a turbulence, the air won't create that void, or at least a much less significant one, and thus greater distance is achieved.

I am pretty sure the poster talking about tailgating behind a semi decreasing the semi's drag is right.


By Shining Arcanine on 7/23/2010 6:30:12 PM , Rating: 5
The point is not to help the planet. The point is to help their wallets.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By hyvonen on 7/23/2010 4:57:02 PM , Rating: 5
Tailgaters are fine - what's not fine is a$$holes who are driving 10mph below the speed limit on the left lane of a two-lane street, right next to another car driving the same below-speed-limit speed. (Usually both are on the phone, too.) A huge line forms behind these jerks, but they are completely oblivious to what's happening around them.

Focus. Know what the speed limit is. If you can't/won't drive at the speed limit, MOVE TO THE RIGHT LANE!! Learn the friggin' traffic rules!


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Alexstarfire on 7/23/2010 5:07:58 PM , Rating: 2
There are a lot of people who don't know traffic rules, including those who tailgate.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By hyvonen on 7/23/2010 7:55:58 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. Doesn't change the fact that in my opinion slow drivers on the wrong lane are more annoying than tailgaters.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By lelias2k on 7/24/2010 7:03:29 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. I don't know about other states, but in California there's a sign that says "SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT."

Pay attention, it says SLOWER , not under the speed limit, and not even AT the speed limit. That is because CA's basic speed law 22350 says " No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property . "

This means if traffic is going ABOVE the speed limit, that is the speed you should be driving too. (that question is often on the DMV test)

Trust me, I got rid of speeding tickets because of that law.

As for tailgating, I wouldn't do it if people in front of me paid attention to their mirrors and moved over to the right lane when I'm driving faster. As it is, I have to get closer so they get a clue. (and remember that passing on the right lane is also against the law, even though everyone does it...)

When I was growing up, my father taught me that on the freeways you have to pay more attention to your mirrors, not only to avoid this situations, but also because since speeds are much higher, so are the risks.

With that said, I don't condone tailgating, but I'll tell whoever listen: If you're slower, keep right!


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By tiberius2oo5 on 7/25/2010 7:03:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This means if traffic is going ABOVE the speed limit, that is the speed you should be driving too.


Of course, usually the speed limit is too slow for any reasonably experienced driver. However...

I don't know where you got that idea from, and maybe you have been able to talk your way out of tickets with that line, but officially:

"You may never legally drive faster than the posted speed limit, even if you think it is safe to do so."

California Driver Handbook (CA DMV)
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/speed_limits.htm


By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 7:00:16 AM , Rating: 2
Shhhh, I can get some stupid people off the road. :)


By Mojo the Monkey on 8/4/2010 5:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
Am I the only one who has thought, many times, about creative a handheld sign with big, bold letters reading "GET OUT OF THE PASSING LANE" to hold up to slow drivers in the far left lane... as I honk at them when I pass them.


By rburnham on 7/27/2010 10:56:32 AM , Rating: 2
They are equally annoying, especially if the tailgating is happening in the slow lane. A little tailgating in the fast lane to encourage a slow driver to switch lanes is understandable, but at some point making a point becomes secondary to being safe.


By tastyratz on 7/23/2010 11:03:37 PM , Rating: 4
AMEN to that.
Most people also seem to forget that the left most lane on an interstate is not the "fast" lane... its the PASSING lane - in other words if your not there to pass someone GET THE FRICK BACK OVER TO THE RIGHT. Technically it is not legal to travel in the passing lane otherwise.
I find its less oblivious people and more arrogant people. Its the people who think they own the road that encourage poor driving techniques from me.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By callmeroy on 7/26/2010 11:10:27 AM , Rating: 4
Tailgaters are fine?

Um no. Speaking from the fact that I was rear-ended twice (within 4 months of each no less, btw for over 15 years no single accident on my record until those two rear enders happened), I'm not a fan of tailgating...in the least. Not to mention its against the law (don't know if its a federal thing but I know in my state it is).

A quick list of my favs (being sarcastic if you didn't catch that) :

1) People in the passing lane are driving slower than people in the right lane and/or they STAY in the passing lane for their whole drive (btw a cop once told me that's technically illegal -- to stay driving the whole time in the passing lane as if its a normal lane).

2) People driving 10 mph or greater SLOWER than the flow of traffic.....get the net folks...driving slower than everyone else isn't safer...its actually more dangerous. Statistically the safest speed is having everyone moving at or about the SAME speed...even if its 80 mph!

3) Not using your signals or using your signals only right as you are making the turn.....so that fancy new car you have the model without turn signals? (That's what I always feel like screaming at those people)....and WTF good does it do for those behind you if you only put on your signal the exact second you are turning your wheel? Think McFly..think!

4) The "I can't make up my mind where the hell I'm going" driver....you guys know these types....person makes 50 lane changes in 5 minutes...slows down signficantly at every other exit or on ramp.....with GPS and internet mapping sites like Bing , Google or Map Quest...seriously...what is your excuse ASIDE from being too damn lazy to plan ahead before you got in your car? If its an emergency...you don't have a cell phone...you can't pull off to the shoulder?

5) Hurry hurry hurry drivers.....I don't know the numbers or stats or research, but its pretty common sense to me that a great deal of deaths in car accidents occur from the impatient driver. There's a difference between driving fast (ie. 80 mph on the highway) and driving RECKLESS. I see people come mega close to causing accidents all the time and its only sheer luck they don't. To those kinds of drivers....CALM THE HELL DOWN....your appointment, bf/gf/spouse/whoever, can't wait an extra 5 minutes...unless you think potentially KILLING someone's loved one is worth that 5 minutes?

6) Motorcycle drivers.....I'm cool with most of you, but your buddies on the sport bikes that drive on the lines that divide the lanes (especially in heavy traffic), or that weave in and out of traffic....yeah they need to get in an accident that seriously hurts them (but I'll be nice enough to say no death or permanent injury) just to scare them.

and of course Tailgating....

Those are my main ones off the top of my head...I'm sure I could think of more...


By hyvonen on 7/27/2010 3:07:28 AM , Rating: 3
I agree with the first four 100%. Especially #3, which never gets enough attention.

Signals are there to let other people know what you're GONNA do, not what you've done already. And if you're going to take a turn, signal first break then.

People need to learn to think about what's going on around them.

And #1 is not just "technically" illegal - it is plain illegal. And stupid.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Targon on 7/27/2010 11:13:59 AM , Rating: 2
To be safe, you go at the speed the other cars are going at. So, if everyone is doing 70 in a 55, you should be going at least 65 and stay in the right lane.

The speed limit should be more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule, and should also reflect the road you are on, the condition of the road, visibility, and on-ramps/intersections. Roads that are in residential neighborhoods warrant driving in the 30-35 mile per hour range, while open highways with wide lanes and few on-ramps should be at least 65 mile per hour zones.

Then again, having variable speed limits on roads where there are digital signs for each lane to indicate the appropriate speed limit would help. The left lane(out of three) could have a 75 mile per hour speed limit, the center could be 65, and the right could be 55, with minimums also in place to keep SLOW people out of them. We don't need old people who feel that 55 miles per hour is fast in the left lane!


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By cjohnson2136 on 7/27/2010 3:08:09 PM , Rating: 2
That can also be said for people who speed. There are times I will drive 5 to 10 over the speed limit in the left lane a a car will speed up right to me and tailgate me. For me personally I slow down and make sure a tailgater can't get pass but as soon as they back off I speed up.


By justniz on 7/29/2010 4:46:05 PM , Rating: 1
>> For me personally I slow down and make sure a tailgater can't get pass but as soon as they back off I speed up.

So you're holding them up just to be an asshole?
People like you that should have your licence revoked.
If someone wants to go by, even if you personally think they're stupid, why not just let them get by and away from you? Why purposely be an annoyance? All you're doing is causing them to get frustrated which will result in them taking dangerous (to you and everyone else nearby) chances.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2010 5:37:40 PM , Rating: 5
Hypermiling is VERY dangerous. When you are so concerned with mileage that you can't negotiate merges properly, exit an onramp, or keep up with the flow of traffic you are a THREAT to other drivers. Hypermilers are, for lack of a better word, oblivious to what's around them.


By fleabag on 7/23/2010 5:44:37 PM , Rating: 2
Driving in general is very dangerous.... I'd rather people be concerned or distracted with the operation of their vehicle than distracted with all the other shit that goes on inside of a car or even their own head!


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By tedrodai on 7/24/2010 11:36:13 AM , Rating: 4
I used to say to myself "Speed up old person!" in varying degrees of language harshness when someone was trying to merge into the 70mph interstate traffic at 45mph; but more and more it's the middle-aged hybrid drivers.


By Mojo the Monkey on 8/4/2010 5:59:22 PM , Rating: 2
From that website:
quote:
If faced with worst-case “stop & crawl” traffic conditions, leave as much space ahead of you as possible and continually “accordion” that space to keep your vehicle moving near a constant speed while the cars in front of you stop & start. Yes, some people will cut into the space you create ahead of you. Deal with it. Note that this may aggravate following drivers who can’t absorb the big picture, and that must be taken into account.


What a horrible "screw you" attitude toward other drivers. I drive in Los Angeles traffic. If you are living by this set of rules and driving in front of me, allowing other schmucks to cut in front of you in a long-line exit ramp, etc., I'll rip your head off. I will.


By LRonaldHubbs on 7/23/2010 8:06:06 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Tailgaters are a huge pet peeve of mine, don't try it behind me of I'm going to cut the gas and coast until you get the message.

Turning on your windshield washers does the job too :p

Actually, tailgaters don't really bother me as long as they pass when given an opportunity. It's when they tailgate for no real reason that pisses me off, and that is when I engage the washer fluid. On the highway I tend to be in the left lane a lot because I tend to pass a lot people, but I usually move over for tailgaters because they serve a very important purpose of speeding ahead and getting pulled over so that I do not.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By croc on 7/23/10, Rating: 0
By hyvonen on 7/24/2010 3:28:45 PM , Rating: 3
You're just an overall a$$hole. You deserve to be rear-ended with a hit-and-run.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By jkostans on 7/25/2010 2:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
You are an idiot. I hope the next guy you do that to makes it so you can no longer drive. I've had people do that to me and it's extremely dangerous for EVERYONE ELSE BUT THE PERSON YOU ARE TRYING TO PISS OFF. I actually pay attention when I drive so it's not a problem when you slam the brakes. It's the poor guy behind me and the person behind them you are fucking over. I'm sure you've caused plenty of accidents without even knowing it. You drive like an idiot, get the fuck out of the way and no one will tailgate you.


By callmeroy on 7/26/2010 11:17:08 AM , Rating: 1
I was going to say pretty much everything you just said to him....so no need for me to continue..

But yes i support your reply to him as well...that guy DESERVES to get hurt...NOT anyone else...just him.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By lyeoh on 7/27/2010 12:08:55 PM , Rating: 2
Hey if you're tailgating people that closely, I hope both of you meet by accident someday.

You two are just perfect for each other. :)


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Fracture on 7/26/2010 8:40:20 AM , Rating: 4
Real hypermilers maintain as much speed as they can through turns, which I'm sure would spill this glass of water idea. Anyone can get 2-3 more MPG just by accelerating more slowly and evenly, and increasing following distance by 20 more feet so you don't brake as much.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By hyvonen on 7/27/2010 3:13:07 AM , Rating: 2
Sounds more like a sport/hobby than actually trying to save earth or your wallet.

I rather sacrifice the 2-3MPG extra, and save myself getting stuck on 2-3 extra red lights, slowing my commute by a solid 20-30%.

I've come to a conclusion that surely driving below speed limit makes your trip last a bit longer, but the real hit comes in the form of getting stuck on an extra red light. Going 10mph over the speed limit can save you more time than you think, because you might be able to avoid a couple of red lights.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/27/2010 9:23:38 AM , Rating: 2
Do this for a week.
Leave 10mins earlier.

Speed for a week and time yourself from the time you leave the drive way and to work.

Then next week observe the speed limit and still time yourself.

see what happens.


By rburnham on 7/27/2010 10:59:44 AM , Rating: 2
THANK YOU!

I spent part of my younger days constantly leaving late, driving aggressively and still being late to work. After a couple years of that, I finally got fired for tardiness.

On every job I have had since, I have made a point to leave home so that I get to work about 10-15 minutes before the day starts, which means I don't feel the need to rush on the drive in. I can drive safely, no weaving in and out, no speeding, no tailgating. Just a calm morning drive with lame morning talk radio soothing my brain.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By justniz on 7/29/2010 4:55:23 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. Whats up with all the morons that slow down to like 5 mph just to go round a corner even though they are driving a modern car? Its like they totally don't know their car's capability.

Its people that are too cautious, and/or have no idea of their own car's size or handling that scare me WAAAY more than someone drivng fast but well.


By fleabag on 7/30/2010 7:15:04 AM , Rating: 2
It's hard to take a turn quickly when you're busing applying makeup, reading a novel, eating your lunch or text messaging.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By HrilL on 7/26/2010 5:09:14 PM , Rating: 1
How about this ass hat and follow the damn law. "Slower traffic keep to the right." If I tailgate you then you're going too slow and need to move over. I don't care if you're going the speed limit or not because the law still says "slower traffic move to the right." And it is not your job or right to make sure I follow the speed limit. It doesn't say "unless you're going to speed limit." Its against that law to take it into your own hands, meaning leave my speeding up to the police. So just move over and stop clogging up our roads. People that do what you do actually make the roads far more dangerous than someone going 10-15 MPH over the speed limit. You cause traffic and you make people angry (thus they don't think as strait or spend time thinking about what a dick head you are for keeping them from getting somewhere. when they should be focusing on the road) You are clearly more of a problem on the road than someone that wants to go a little faster than our out dated speed limits permit. We've had 65MPH since the 1960s and I'm sure cars are a lot safer now days so its time we bump that to 85MPH.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Alexstarfire on 7/27/2010 12:27:39 PM , Rating: 1
You do realize that your argument would never hold up in a court of law, right? I know it's a dick move on his part, but at least know what the rules of the road are before making an argument.


By justniz on 7/29/2010 4:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
sorry but he's right and he does know the law.
Apparently you don't.
In most states, the law IS that slower traffic should keep right.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By cjohnson2136 on 7/27/2010 3:18:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We've had 65MPH since the 1960s and I'm sure cars are a lot safer now days so its time we bump that to 85MPH


How about instead of increasing the speeds on the roads you just limit the speeds of the car. There is no need to drive 85 to 95 down a highway. Plus I will drive how I please there is no law where I am that saws slower traffic to the right. The speed limit is the speed limit and if I am already going over it then I am driving in the left lane.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By HrilL on 7/30/2010 12:13:20 PM , Rating: 2
Umm in California we do have a law that says slower traffic keep to the right. Its posted on signs all over the highways. Also we have a law that says the left line is for passing only. Meaning if you're coursing at 65 side by side with someone else you can in fact get a ticket. I've seen it happen and I'm seen my coworker make it happen because as soon as there was enough room for his car to pass on the right (which as we all know is illegal) The CHP pulled over the retard in the fast lane for blocking the free flow of traffic.

And again you're completely wrong. On a long trip I can shave a few hours off my time by going just 20 miles faster than 65MPH. For each hour you gain 20 miles so if a trip is normally 6 at 65mph 390 miles about the distance from me to San Francisco. Or I can go 85 and make the trip in 4.6 hours. I've made it in 4.5 before. Maybe for someone who's time is worthless the outdated speed limits make sense but for me saving an hour and half is worth quite a bit to me. Seems like there is a need to drive faster or more than half the people on the highway wouldn't be going faster than 65mph.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By walk2k on 7/23/2010 4:33:49 PM , Rating: 2
"breaking slowly" - I hope my car breaks slowly too.


By GiantPandaMan on 7/23/2010 4:51:12 PM , Rating: 5
I don't think Dailytech understands the nuances of homonyms.

After all, complete sentences can be a challenge for them. :P


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By CharonPDX on 7/23/2010 4:52:41 PM , Rating: 2
I find I actually get worse mileage doing the 'slow up, fast down' routine. I allow myself to slow down a SLIGHT amount doing up the hill, but I make sure I start out going slightly faster first, so that by the top, I'm only going a couple MPH lower. (In your example, I would have accelerated to 62, then allowed myself to drop to 58,) then I hold my speed going down.

Of course, I have a hybrid, so holding my speed going down allows me to regenerate the battery to make up for the power I used keeping my speed going up.

But, if I'm the only car on the road, and it's a lower-speed area (a 30 MPH zone near my house, for example,) I will happily "coast" up the hill to a near-standstill to avoid using gas. But as soon as I see someone come up behind me, I speed back up.

Being fuel efficient is one thing, being an ass is another.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Spuke on 7/23/2010 5:23:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I will happily "coast" up the hill to a near-standstill to avoid using gas.
Does this actually work? It seems this would put the car out its efficiency range. Part throttle and idle aren't the most efficient ranges on an engine unless your ECU runs in closed loop.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/23/2010 6:49:12 PM , Rating: 2
Depends where you are going.
Going through my neighbor hood I pulse up to 25mph then Neutral for the rest of the way and by the time I hit my driveway I hit it at 10 mph.


By Alexstarfire on 7/25/2010 2:14:46 AM , Rating: 2
Depends on your car actually. You can't drive a regular car like you would a hybrid and get the same results. There really is no such thing as pulse-and-glide in a standard ICE only car as there is no glide. It works in a hybrid because the engine actually turns off so you get "free" miles. Not actually free of course, but you're spending no extra gas to get them.

Of course, what the OP said/does is inefficient. The idea is to lose a bit of speed going up and make it up on the way down. The principle is that you can't make up what you spend. Since you spend the most gas going up a hill, as it takes more force, you lose a bit of speed to avoid using as much gas. You then spend some extra gas on the down side of the hill since you use the least gas because you need the least amount of force to keep moving. You use less gas overall and your speed should be about average to if you kept your speed constant going up and going down. In a hybrid though this can be a bit different. Some hills can be steep enough on the down side to coast with the ICE off but using some, or none, of the electric motor to move. If it's steep enough then going up at a constant speed on the up side and coasting on the down side is better since you'd have "unlimited" MPG on the down side.

You need to know vehicle in order to get the best mileage out of it.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By tng on 7/23/2010 5:26:01 PM , Rating: 2
I have a 99 Civic and found that just driving about 5 mph less gets me about 15% increase in mileage, now I am consistently at 41 mpg.

I leave at about 4 AM to go to work and normally have most of the freeway to myself in the morning, but I have found that even though I drive in the slow lane (4 to 5 lanes in one direction most of the way) so as not to slow down others there is always one A$$ that tailgates me in the slow lane. Normally this is a Toyota driver that does not see the other 3 lanes that are clear for miles and seems to think that I should move out of their way.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By FITCamaro on 7/23/2010 6:16:58 PM , Rating: 2
That's your car though. Because that's where your engine is most efficient. A buddy of mine put 4.11s in his old LS1 Camaro and got better gas mileage at freeway speeds because it put his rpms more in the range of the motors greatest efficiency. I forget what else was done to the Camaro.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By YashBudini on 7/23/10, Rating: -1
By Lazarus Dark on 7/24/2010 7:18:27 PM , Rating: 1
i'd have downranked you, but since youre already at -1, i'll just say...

w t f.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Reclaimer77 on 7/24/2010 5:05:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I will happily "coast" up the hill to a near-standstill to avoid using gas.


You should be pulled over and ticketed for pulling that kind of shit on a public road. Give me a break! Stop being a douche.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By jjmcubed on 7/24/2010 6:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
As long as nobody is behind him. I do the same thing, but not when others are behind me.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Reclaimer77 on 7/24/10, Rating: 0
RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Alexstarfire on 7/25/2010 2:17:22 AM , Rating: 4
Someone has anger issues.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Reclaimer77 on 7/25/2010 7:10:43 AM , Rating: 2
Jackasses on the road make me angry, yes. Your point? I mean come on, coasting up hills to the point that you barely make it up? That's just not cool on public roads. I don't care if you think "nobody" is behind you, that's just not acceptable driving on the streets.

There is a reason minimum speed limits exist. Hello? Think about it. You stupid "hypermilers". You add minutes to your drives, slow down and confuse everyone around you, all to save maybe fifty cents a trip.

God people are stupid.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Alexstarfire on 7/25/2010 11:48:41 AM , Rating: 2
I agree, people are stupid. Unfortunately, it's you this time.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By jkostans on 7/25/2010 2:08:37 PM , Rating: 3
He is correct, driving erratically is dumb. Hypermiling is dumb. Not driving with the flow of traffic is dumb.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Nfarce on 7/25/2010 2:27:01 PM , Rating: 3
Someone has definitely lost the argument when someone bedwets and drools "anger issues" and "stupid."

I've passed countless smug douchebags hypermiling because they are a PITA. Go ride a damned bike already if burning gas upsets you so much and leave the roads to the rest of we motorists to get to our destination on time (like WORK).


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/25/2010 5:57:12 PM , Rating: 2
Hmmm... ever hear of leaving earlier?
Ever tried to time yourself going normal flow of traffic vs speed limit. I bet you'll hardly see a difference.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Reclaimer77 on 7/25/2010 6:56:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Hmmm... ever hear of leaving earlier?


LOL what great fellowship. Everyone ELSE should just leave earlier so you can hypermile...


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/26/2010 1:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
No... I am mearly stating the fact if you have to tailgate someone and blame someone else for your lateness to work maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror.

I live in one of worst areas in the country to commute.
Northern VA so the time saved may vary.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Nfarce on 7/26/2010 8:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
I have had 1.5 hour commutes, 15 minute commutes, and commute times everywhere in between in my career over the years. On occasion something happens to set you back and you NEED to get somewhere ahead of time. And I also live in one of the worst commute metro areas in the US: Atlanta.

The chronic late person/tailgater won't have a job for long will he or she? But that's beside the point. If you like leaving 2 hours before your scheduled work time and drive like a putz every day, fine. But stay the HELL out of the way to the rest of us with lives, trying to get kids out the door, and other things that inhibit us unexpectedly at the last minute.

I could have started a web blog with pictures on the amount of pulse-dead drivers in commutes over the years I've experienced.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 7:12:48 AM , Rating: 2
If you people would actually go back and read you'd know that I'm talking about the guy who said he does stuff when no one is around. That's fine if you don't like most people who hypermile, not everyone does so smartly. Hell, most people don't even drive normally properly.

Of course, driving with the flow of traffic where I live is actually pretty stupid too. IDK where you live, but over here in Atlanta pretty much everyone speeds. I'm not about to do so just because everyone else does. That is really poor logic.

Reclaimers logic is just as flawed. He basically says he doesn't like hypermilers even if they affect no one. Based on his logic everyone should do everything that the majority does, or more likely just whatever Reclaimer does.

I probably fall into the hypermiler category more than the regular category and I can tell you I hate driving with most people. You don't need to hypermile just to save fuel. A lot of people like to hit the gas all the way up to a red light and practically slam on their brakes to stop in time. I also see a lot of people who like to brake going downhill for absolutely no reason.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Dr of crap on 7/26/2010 10:36:17 AM , Rating: 1
Let me put my 2 cents in here to maybe clear some of this.
I'm in my 3rd year of a new job 30 miles from my home. What I found out is I can set my cruise control at 62mph on a 60 mph road and drive in the right lane ( 2 and 3 lane roads ) about 1/2 of the time. Of course I do have to go into the middle lane and left lane, why because of slow drivers, and those that can't merge correctly. The other half is spent in stop and go and slow moving, yet again because of drivers that can't merge!

If you want to go slower than the posted speed, move to the right, just as the signs posted say to do, and the driver training says to do ( do we all forget about this ).
Also if you get onto a freeway and the AVERAGE speed is over the posted, then you had better stay to the right if you do not indend to drive the average speed of the others.

I am amazed each day about the inconsiderate drivers that cause traffic jambs simply because they do not pay attention, or do not care about the other drivers on the road!
And before you reply to this, think about the decrease in YOUR time to get where you are going if you'd not be causing the slow down yourself.
I can slow and leave a space from the jamb and get throught the traffic jamb without using much brakes. And yes, sometimes the guy behind gets mad and pulls around me if I'm in the lefet or middle lane, but then I catch up to him a bit down the road and his speeding got him nowhere in the jamb up.


By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 4:35:47 PM , Rating: 1
I only read about half of your first paragraph and all I have to say is, LEARN SOME FUCKING READING COMPREHENSION. You are like the 3rd or 4th person who has replied to a comment in which someone was talking about doing these measures when no one else is around.

That said, there are stupider people than those who "hypermile" and they are in far bigger numbers, And I say that term very loosely because most people on here aren't talking about true hypermilers but just people who go slow. Slow != hypermiler. Anyway, I'll say what I said in another comment on here. Most people need to learn how to drive properly. This includes people who go from the very left lane or even the HOV lane across 6 lanes of traffic to just barely make it to the exit in time. Slower people moving in front of others for no reason. Faster people tailgating. Ohh, and for that matter faster people who go around you giving you no chance to get over yourself. You can't get over if you don't have opportunities after all. Umm, to continue the list, people who take right turns from the left turn lane. People who don't read signs. People who stop at green lights. People who brake for no reason. The list goes on and on.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By ShaolinSoccer on 7/23/2010 5:02:37 PM , Rating: 2
some people drive with food in their car. taking it to loved ones or maybe to a party and they don't want it to tip over so they drive carefully. or maybe they're old and realise that driving is extremely dangerous. if you get pissed off at people like that, that only shows there's something seriously wrong with you.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By abel2 on 7/23/2010 5:45:49 PM , Rating: 2
Yes driving is dangerous. It is even more dangerous when the majority of people are doing the speed limit and these "old people that realise driving is dangerous" are going 10-15 mph slower than the speed limit. Nothing like cruising along at a normal clip to round a corner and have to engage your brakes to stop from hitting the line of cars that are chugging along behind these people.

I'm pretty sure studies have been done on the current speed limits and that they are safe to drive at. If you cannot maintain that speed limit without feeling nervous or that you are likely to die then you probably should not be driving, or you should pull over and let the people behind you that like to get places on time, pass.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Lerianis on 7/25/2010 5:07:13 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, they advise that if you are smart today in driving class to go 5-10 mph BELOW the posted speed limit, because those speed limits are for 'perfect' conditions.
In NON-PERFECT conditions (which is what we usually have!), going slower than the speed limit is the smart thing to do.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Fracture on 7/26/2010 8:53:10 AM , Rating: 2
Not really. The 55 mph speed limit has little to do with road conditions or efficiency. When speed limits are set artificially low, tailgating, weaving and speed variance become greater dangers. The autobahn is speed-limit free and still is consistently safer than many US highways.

Also, as a net effect, the difference between a 75 mph limit and a 50 mph limit means 30% more time spent in transit. The cumulative number of man hours for each person in each car adds up to many lifetimes, more than the number of additional fatalities such a speed limit increase would potentially bring.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/26/2010 1:45:38 PM , Rating: 2
http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.shtml

Go down to Observe speed limit.


By Alexstarfire on 7/27/2010 12:34:49 PM , Rating: 2
I think your comparison of US highways and the Autobahn isn't very good. I'd imagine most people in Europe can drive better than most people in the US anyway.

Looking at just the speed of the highway would net you that 33% faster transit times, but IDK very many people who only drive on the highway. It might be most of their trip, but they usually have a couple miles to go apart from the highway. As a result, going 33% slower will probably only yield a 10% increase in time. Of course, that's entirely dependent on how much off highway driving you have. Personally I spend about half my time on the highway and half off the highway, despite the highway being about 2/3rds of the trip.


By justniz on 7/29/2010 5:06:13 PM , Rating: 2
>> going slower than the speed limit is the smart thing to do.

No it really isn't. The smart thing is to avoid pissing other people off and drive at a similar speed to the rest of the traffic around you.

The biggest cause of accidents isn't speed itself, but the difference in speed between you and other drivers.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By radializer on 7/30/2010 4:23:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In NON-PERFECT conditions (which is what we usually have!), going slower than the speed limit is the smart thing to do


This need not be true ... and usually isn't a generalization that holds up in reality.

Several years ago, the speed limit on the Loop-202 freeway in Tempe, AZ used to be 55mph but most prople driving there maintained speeds of 65mph-75mph. Subsequently, a study performed by ADOT confirmed that the people driving at or below the limit (50-55mph) were, in fact, constituting a traffic flow hazard. So they upped the limit to 65mph.

Consequently, those who drove at the limit now sped up ... the rest stayed at 65-75mph - overall, the traffic flow improved.

What this means is; the freeway in question was in no way "non-perfect" at speeds above the older limit of 55mph. These numbers are a conscious choice based on multiple factors including flow moderation, etc - which have nothing to do with road capability.


By radializer on 7/30/2010 4:26:19 PM , Rating: 2
I meant "traffic flow moderation", as a factor itself, is independent of the actual capability of the road to sustain certain speeds.

Obviously, the ability of the road to sustain high speeds is also a major factor in the determination of speed limits.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/23/2010 5:18:40 PM , Rating: 2
Those who draft are not true Hypermilers. We hold rules and laws of the road above saving gas.

These are the techinques I and many others use.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15...

Though to be frank I don't use the Advance techniques during the day. Pulse&Glide is a technique that on a flat or downward slopping surface you throw your car into neutral and gradually slow down until you reach your pre deterimend speed and pulse back up again.

Coasting in Neutral up hills isn't something we do. Though we do use Drive with Load we let our speed droop as we go up the hills.

Hypermilers are not so common... we are a tiny minority in society.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/10, Rating: -1
RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Kurz on 7/23/2010 6:37:59 PM , Rating: 2
Reclaimer well... the gas I've saved in one year paid for my set of tires. Total of 900 dollars since June of 2008.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By walk2k on 7/23/10, Rating: 0
RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By RivuxGamma on 7/24/2010 4:23:50 PM , Rating: 3
Where I live, there are just plain retarded people. For example, there might be 10 people who know how to negotiate a 4-way stop and don't just wait until everyone else goes.

Every single day I get stuck behind some moron that doesn't even approach the speed limit and ends up with a mile-long line of cars behind them since a lot of the roads are 2-lane and are hilly/winding.

It goes a long way to instilling and intense, burning hatred of farmers and old people.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Lerianis on 7/25/2010 5:12:56 PM , Rating: 2
4 way stops are dangerous unless they have turn signals on them. That's why in my area ALL 4-way stops are getting turn signals and "Do not turn on red!" signs.


RE: Hypermilers are annoying as hell
By Suntan on 7/27/2010 12:33:56 PM , Rating: 2
Stupid people at 4 way stops are dangerous unless...

Sounds more accurate.

Sorry, but if you can't watch and count to 3 to know that your turn is next, you're an idiot. Unfortunately, I see it all too often.

-Suntan


By psychmike on 7/25/2010 8:56:39 PM , Rating: 2
And on the other side are hypomilers who make multiple lane changes on the highway, blaze past everyone, and then have to slam on their brakes to make the off ramp. They race from red light to red light.

Personal freedom is important, but in dense communities, one person's actions increasingly affect others. In Toronto, we have a high number of smog days in the summer due to car traffic and increased power consumption for AC. All the while, stores leave their doors wide open with the AC cranked and people idle their cars with the windows rolled down while they eat lunch nearby. Sheesh.


By conquistadorst on 7/26/2010 9:33:35 AM , Rating: 2
Why would you be so eager to rush to a red light? You're going to sit and wait there anyway. I think there really aren't that many hypermilers on the road as everyone is implying, you might be getting confused with drivers that are simply distracted talking/texting on their cell phones or toying with their smart phones. Everyone everyone just needs to chill out, employ a bit more common sense, and good will towards others. And yes, even the bad drivers too. Keep in mind that everyone will be a bad driver someday day if they are not already - unless of course, you check out early.


By Deathtwinkie on 7/28/2010 10:38:03 PM , Rating: 2
I am a hypermiler and I am not annoying. I don't go 50 in a 60, but yes I do draft behind big rigs, accelerate slowly but not insanely slow, and I don't brake early for a light a mile down the road. You're either talking about extreme hypermilers or just exagerrating. I don't think you need to be extreme. I just got a Insight (traded in a civic Si) and like I said I drive behind big rigs because it makes a difference, and it's said that doing that doesn't hinder them but creates a buffer that helps them as well. Dunno about that. I don't think it does anything to them, that's a 60,000 - 80,000 pound truck. Anyway. Insight is a 41/43mpg car and my slow accel, drafting, mild braking, slowing slightly uphill and using downhill to gain more speed....i get 58-63mpg and that's with A/C running as well.

Imagine if everyone slowed down and drove like this. Imagine how much oil and gas we'd all save. Anyway, I draft behind big rigs not just for my mileage, and pay attention to this part. I do it ALSO because big rigs generally are going slower and people are passing them anyway, so by staying behind them I'm not taking up another lane for people to go around. So don't call me inconsiderate. I generally do the speed limit or about 5mph under and stay about 30-40ft behind big rigs whenever I can.

So stop generalizing about hypermilers just because of your perception of what's going on. I'm considerate and if I have a line of people behind me I will change lanes or speed up and not worry about gas for a few secs. Go generalize on something else.

Like I said, the world is changing and there's no need for your SUVs, hummers, 20-30mpg cars. But even in your current cars, you could net a massive mpg change like I get if you drive different.


This increases congestion
By dgingeri on 7/25/2010 12:11:03 AM , Rating: 3
Driving like this increases congestion in crowded cities, especially during rush hour. Sure, you could save yourself 10-15% of your gas costs directly by driving like this, but when only 4-6 people make it through a stop light, and 10 more have to wait, there is more gas wasted by those other cars than is saved by the drivers using these techniques. This, in turn increases demand because of more wasted gas and time, which in turn increases costs of gas in the first place.

Everyone must adjust their driving techniques depending on the conditions. To not adjust to various conditions is just plain stupidity.

I drive the same 10 miles every day. When there are no slow drivers and I'm able to maintain the speed limit, I only get caught by 3 or 4 stoplights the entire trip. I usually use about half a tank of gas a week under these conditions, getting about 26 mpg. When there are these "hypermilers" that like to accelerate slow and go 25 in a 40 zone, I get caught at every single freaking light, and get about 20 miles per gallon, plus waste extra time, about 20 extra minutes, every single morning sitting at stoplights. A 10 mile drive should take just under 20 minutes in city traffic. Instead, with idiots like this on the road, it takes almost 40. I've had weeks of each. I know what I'm talking about.




RE: This increases congestion
By Alexstarfire on 7/25/2010 2:37:36 AM , Rating: 2
And that is rather anecdotal evidence. I can sit here and tell you about the dozens of times my friend and I leave at the same time. He speeds, I don't. I arrive maybe 20 seconds later than him yet get far better fuel efficiency. Knowing your surroundings helps a lot. I know which lights I'm likely to hit. Out of 12 lights, I will probably hit 2. And you'd hit those almost no matter how you drove. Lights where I live are rarely timed.

The fact is though, it doesn't mean much when talking about a very small group of people in a specific city/town/location.


RE: This increases congestion
By Dr of crap on 7/26/2010 10:41:38 AM , Rating: 2
Yet another thing that the powers that be COULD DO to help us with gas savings.
Se the lights so that at a normal speed you do not have to stop.
This one just is plain stupid. I like to have a web site that I could give my input on how to set lights so stop these stupid backups because the lights are timed correctly.
Seems WAY to easy for a govt to do - right?


RE: This increases congestion
By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 4:41:07 PM , Rating: 2
Timing all lights perfectly would be impossible. There are some situations where a light couldn't possible be timed perfect because cars come from perpendicular directions at the same time. Can't have all lights be green at the same time.

They can fix some of the main roads in and out of a city to be timed. That seems like a no brainer to me. They should also time the more high use roads. I know one road that I will avoid like the plague and only go on it if my destination is actually on that road. You'll hit at least every other light guaranteed. And it's one of the main roads in and our of Atlanta on the east side.


RE: This increases congestion
By gcor on 7/26/2010 12:31:00 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, it's the other way around. Cars being close together and accelerating then braking cause a growing ripple effect back through the of traffic. The ripples can and do cause motorway traffic to stop entirely when there was no other cause (e.g. a breakdown or off ramp congestion).

In the UK, there are police teams that are flown by helicopter to such spots to intervene and get drivers to quit tailgating, hugely increase the distance to the next car and avoid needing to brake. This allows the traffic flow to re-start.


RE: This increases congestion
By dgingeri on 7/26/2010 8:31:18 AM , Rating: 2
if people were to actually accelerate at the lights and get up to the freaking speed limit, then we'd have fewer people stuck at the lights, wasting their gas and time, and more people actually moving.

The EPA's modeling for drivers was done as a single car simulation, not taking traffic into account. When they made their recommendations, they made it as if every car was the only car on the road.

MIT recently did extensive studies on traffic simulations. Reducing the "desired speed" by 10 miles per hour of 1 car in 20 actually slowed speeds down on highways by over 25 miles per hour on highways, and the effect lasted for over an hour after that car was off the road. In effect, one person driving 45 in a 55 zone slowed traffic for thousands of others to less than 30 miles per hour. On the side streets, the effects were more pronounced, increasing drive times by over 100% because of the reduced numbers of cars getting through the stop lights.


RE: This increases congestion
By dgingeri on 7/26/2010 11:08:18 AM , Rating: 2
I have a perfect example on my drive in:

There is a series of turns to get from one main street, cut through a couple side streets to get to another main street and avoid a major problem intersection. It's a left turn at one light, a right turn (the stoplight doesn't actually run the right turners here, so there is never any stopping unless some idiot doesn't understand) at the next, go straight on 2, then make a left on the last main street.

If you go above 30 mph (the speed limit is 35) from the first light to the second, you'll make it through the third light, and then get to the last just in time for it to change. That takes about 4 minutes. (It worked properly for me today, but didn't on Friday morning.) If you go less than 30mph on that first stretch, you won't make the third light. This light takes 4 minutes to change, then you miss the last light and have to wait another 10 minutes for that one to change. The whole thing takes about 17 minutes. just one stretch, of less than 3/4 mile, can make a difference of 13 minutes, and all because of the speed of the people ahead of you.

There are 2 other intersections combos that work the same way. All of them make a difference of 5 to 10 mph below the speed limit. One stretch, the people in the right lane almost always go 40mph in a 55 mph section, and getting through the intersection almost always takes 3-4 cycles of the light.

That light cycles in such a way that on Arapahoe, only about a dozen people get through per cycle at typical acceleration. The slow movers rule this intersection, because even if there is a fast mover at the head, he's been slowed down by the slow movers to even get there.

Getting off Arapahoe on to Broncos parkway, if you get up to the 45mph speed limit, you'll make the next light. if not, you get stuck through a 7 minute cycle, increasing the time to get through there. Its all timing.

On top of all that, I couldn't count the number of times I've been stuck behind a slow mover, only to get caught by the red light and have that idiot slow mover run the red light. That pisses me off to no end: losing another 10 minutes just because of some other idiot's lack of understanding. I lose about an hour a day to these people, typically. An hour I can't afford to lose when I'm not at work.

(My work involves a lot of waiting for computers to do things, leaving me with extensive down time to post things like this. Right now, I'm waiting on a third TSM installation as I try to correct what someone else did wrong. After work, I have a very limited amount of time, usually about 3 and a half hours, to get things done before bed. I hate wasting my time after I've had to waste so much time at work, but idiots seem to want to force me to waste that time. If they waste my commute time in the morning, and I get to work late, that means I have to stay late and it wastes my time at night. If I get more wasted time during lunch, that also means more wasted time in the evening. So it all comes down to my evening time for myself getting wasted by idiots who refuse to hit the accelerator.)


RE: This increases congestion
By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 5:11:58 PM , Rating: 2
A light taking 4 minutes to change is a rarity in itself, but 10 minutes for a light is just straight BS. We have ONE light in my area that I know takes nearly 4 minutes to change since I can play a whole song and still have a bit of time before it changes. It is poorly timed so not a lot of people take the left turn when it's green. I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, but this is one of those lights where about half the people on the road turn left at. If I miss the light I just go through a parking lot to get around it.


RE: This increases congestion
By dgingeri on 7/26/2010 6:03:04 PM , Rating: 2
that 10 minute light is from a minor side road onto a major road. From Boston onto Arapahoe in a Denver suburb. (I think that's Englewood, but I can't say for sure.) Arapahoe frequently back up form major traffic just west of Boston, and even with a 10 minute cycle, there are rarely more than a dozen cars going through. On top of that, the light cycles for Boston in about 15 seconds. Enough time to get 4 cars, 2 from each lane, that actually get through, and then another 4 people on the turn lane. So, slow movers create a situation where only 2 people get through sometimes. I've seen and been a victim of that before.

The 4 minute light is at Caley and Yosemite. both are fairly busy, since a park and ride is on one side, but it cycles a bit more often and stays green more often. The light has a detector system that if no car goes over the pressure sensor for a short time, I think its about 1.5 seconds, it changes back thinking that nobody else is coming. Slow movers still cost people here, too. I have frequently been unable to make a turn because the guy in front of me left 4-5 car lengths in front of him, which trips the sensor. the slowpoke gets through and the guy behind him (many times its me) doesn't.

4 and 10 minute lights are quite common. I don't know where you're from, but Chicago, Oklahoma City, and Denver have them all over. shorter cycle lights are a rarity.


RE: This increases congestion
By Alexstarfire on 7/26/2010 6:54:17 PM , Rating: 2
I live near Atlanta. I've driven a good bit around this country and I've never seen any light take longer than the one I mentioned in my post. Actually, I take that back. I've seen broken lights that never change. Those are very rare and even including all the ones that my friends have seen that amounts to 3.


RE: This increases congestion
By dgingeri on 7/26/2010 1:35:00 PM , Rating: 2
one more thing about slow movers: they let the jerks rule the road.

Like the guy ahead of my today. he refuses to get up to the 55 speed limit, getting up to a maximum of 35, and we had about a dozen people come around from behind me, run up ahead, and then get back over in front of him. every time a new person would move over in front of him, he'd slow down further, making the whole thing worse.

Or the exit lanes from north bound i-25 onto east bound i-70. these lanes get backed up for miles, but some jerks get the idea to use the exit lane for northbound, then move over at the last moment.

Or, best example, in construction zones, some jerks use the ending lanes as passing lanes, making the whole thing back up even worse for those of us following the rules.

The idiot slow movers just let them over. The point is to keep just close enough (moving at <5mph means 5 feet is not tailgating) to not allow the jerks over, but it happens over and over.

As long as people let them do it, they will continue to do it. Prevent them from getting over, and they have to go entirely the wrong way, costing them extra time. if it costs them more than it benefits them, then they stop doing it. Being soft on these people is just being a patsy, and hurting a hundred times as many people in the process. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be hurt again and again, costing me time and gas again and again, just because some idiot thinks he's being nice.


Exactly what we need...
By nct on 7/23/2010 5:13:21 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
They can download a "A Glass of Water" app that uses the iPhone's accelerometer to simulate a sloshing glass of water.


Another f'ing reason for people to look at their phone instead of the road when they're driving. I guess if you crash and kill yourself, you'll greatly reduce your fuel consumption.




RE: Exactly what we need...
By Helbore on 7/24/2010 3:55:16 PM , Rating: 5
Want to drive like a moron and exponentially increase your chances of being in a fatal accident? There's an app for that.


Pfft
By YashBudini on 7/23/2010 7:50:43 PM , Rating: 2
If the arses on the road simply stopped tailgating highway mileages averages would leap higher. But no, 65mph 1 minute and 80mph the next, until they are inches away from the car in front them. Once they move it's lather, rinse, repeat time for the next car and the car after that.

Tailgating is a 4 point violation? For whom? Nobody addresses these morons.




RE: Pfft
By jjmcubed on 7/24/2010 6:22:40 PM , Rating: 2
I'd rather the police pull over people going slow in the passing lane. If people would GTF out of the way, then there would be no tailgating. Really wish our road rules were more like the Autobahn where they ticket for impeding traffic.


RE: Pfft
By Kurz on 7/25/2010 6:00:49 PM , Rating: 2
Wrong on so many levels.
People tailgate regardless of what speed you are going.
Since there will always be those who think you should be going faster.

Just sad that the speed limits are not enforced as they should be then there wouldn't be so many incidents of road rage.


RE: Pfft
By dgingeri on 7/26/2010 12:18:12 PM , Rating: 2
if you're doing 40 in a 55 zone or 25 in a 40 zone, expect to get tailgated.

Do the posted speed, no more and no less.


RE: Pfft
By YashBudini on 7/27/2010 11:58:21 PM , Rating: 1
The tailgaters don't care how fast you're going, below or above the limit.


Come on Jason
By corduroygt on 7/23/2010 4:24:45 PM , Rating: 4
Post better stories, this one is begging for an initial D reference and/or a picture.




RE: Come on Jason
By LordanSS on 7/23/2010 7:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
Guess he added one, since as I loaded this story up, there was a picture of Fujiwara and his 86. =)


RE: Come on Jason
By corduroygt on 7/24/2010 12:38:37 AM , Rating: 2
Yup I saw it change too, used to be a Lexus LF-A photo before. Thanks for listening Jason, you made my Friday.


AE_86
By j2theflo on 7/23/2010 4:02:24 PM , Rating: 4
Also known to improve your drifting skills exponentially!
*-_-*(sage knod)




RE: AE_86
By carniver on 7/23/2010 5:22:11 PM , Rating: 3
As in slow, totally not focused, drifted away when driving


Toyota drivers are awful!
By stm1185 on 7/23/10, Rating: 0
RE: Toyota drivers are awful!
By adiposity on 7/23/2010 5:13:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Toyota drivers are already the slowest most incompetent drivers on the road


Not really. Maybe Priuses are bad, but minivans of any variety are a nightmare.

I haven't noticed any relationship between bad driving and car brand. Then again, where I am (California) probably half the vehicles on the road are Toyotas or Hondas.

I do notice more asians driving Japanese imports. Make whatever conclusion you like from that.


RE: Toyota drivers are awful!
By walk2k on 7/23/2010 5:53:14 PM , Rating: 1
If there's someone going slow in front of me in the fast lane there's about a 50% chance that it's a Prius... or a Honda Fit.

Also, I'm pretty sure BMWs don't come with turn signals because I've never seen one used.


RE: Toyota drivers are awful!
By Suntan on 7/27/2010 11:53:29 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, I'm pretty sure BMWs don't come with turn signals because I've never seen one used.


I would say BMWs fall sharply into two categories, 50% are actually driven quickly, but with accomplished respect to the “rules of the road.” The other 50% are driven, as you suggest, with complete disregard to things such as blinkers, getting over, etc... ...by realtors.

Now, if there is a vehicle that is causing the rest of the vehicles on the road to have to go out of their way to accommodate it, mostly likely it is a Saturn.

-Suntan


RE: Toyota drivers are awful!
By justniz on 7/29/2010 5:13:43 PM , Rating: 2
I've noticed a pattern, that every time some moron is holding up everyone by driving real slow, they're usually driving a Lexus. No idea why, just reporting it.


Specifics
By The Raven on 7/23/2010 4:35:42 PM , Rating: 2
I need specifics:

How far from the brim of the glass is the water?




RE: Specifics
By walk2k on 7/23/2010 6:57:59 PM , Rating: 2
Do you have to use water? Or can you use beer, or maybe a dry martini?


RE: Specifics
By The Raven on 7/26/2010 11:21:26 AM , Rating: 2
An open container? No dice!


Lower max speed makes a tiny change in travel time
By gcor on 7/26/2010 12:52:56 AM , Rating: 2
I've recently started towing a camper trailer with a car that is under powered (Don't worry, I'm in the process of getting a better tow car). I knew a regular 2 hour trip had huge hills and I was facing big headwinds. I asked TomTom, whose estimates on long trips have been excellent, to estimate what dropping my max speed from 100 to 90 would do to trip time. It increased the total time by only 10 minutes. I.e. a 10% drop in max speed only took an extra 8% time. I then asked it about maxing out at 80 and again the time difference was less than expected, a further 8 extra minutes. I'm guessing it must be to do with things like traffic lights and lower speed zones having significant impact.

Given the roads I was going to be on were all multi-lane and it being a quiet time of day, I figured I could stay out of people's way and stick to a max of 80. As it turned out, the trip took 15 minutes longer than the usual 2 hours. That's a 12% time increase for a 20% speed drop.

Frankly, 15 minutes over 2 hours is stuff all. I could loose that much time on the John or stopping to pick up lunch on the way.

Extrapolating, on a 20 minute trip, dropping my speed by 20% only takes an extra 2 minutes. Whoop de do, one ad break.

It really surprised me was how little time I can save / make up by speeding or even sticking right at the speed limit.




By Suntan on 7/27/2010 11:48:01 AM , Rating: 2
Now extrapolate that to a longer drive. I drive 6 hours to go back and see the folks. Now your little slow-down would mean an extra 45 minutes in the car. Personally, after spending 6 hours in a car, the idea of spending an additional 45 minutes in the car is not appealing.

Feel free to drive as slow as you personally want. Just stay out of the way of others.

-Suntan


By gcor on 7/27/2010 8:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
I do feel free to drive at whatever speed I want. And generally I do try to be considerate of other drivers, as I mentioned in the post.

However, you telling me what to do gets up my nose and makes me want to annoy you. Specifically you Suntan, not others. If I could find you and your regular route, right now I'd like nothing more than to slow you down for telling me what to do.


More advice to consider
By styrafoam on 7/23/2010 4:27:51 PM , Rating: 3
Should your accelerator become stuck your glass of water will most likely be spilled. Bring an extra bottle of water with the lid in place in case you planned on drinking your glass at some point during your trip. The parts counter at your friendly local toyota dealership will be happy to help you replace your shorted out stereo.




RE: More advice to consider
By Lerianis on 7/25/2010 5:11:15 PM , Rating: 2
They've already debunked that 'stuck accelerator' thing and have PROVEN by the computer records in the cars that the accelerators were NOT stuck, the people in almost all cases hit them by accident.


By 460cidpower on 7/25/2010 9:11:57 AM , Rating: 3
When Toyota stopped importing the Supra into the states in 1999, I knew they were joining the leagues of the lame.

This article is just more proof. I've never owned a Toyota, and until they bring DECENT cars back like the Supra, I never will.




By Suntan on 7/27/2010 12:00:25 PM , Rating: 2
I don’t think they need to go all out and provide something like a Supra to show that they are interested in providing fun cars, but when you don’t offer anything that can be considered fun & practical (like the MR2 or Celicas of old) you pretty much are admitting that you really just want to provide “transportation appliances.”

Further, lexus can make a $400,000 super car, it still isn’t going to make anyone (interested in actually driving a car) take a look at a Camry for the purposes of transporting their family around.

-Suntan


This is how I drive now
By titanmiller on 7/23/2010 7:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
This is basically how I drive now. I really enjoy getting a combined 24mpg from my Jeep Cherokee.




RE: This is how I drive now
By YashBudini on 7/23/2010 7:53:59 PM , Rating: 1
I drive a 3200 pound vehicle with a 190hp 3 liter V6 at 65mph and get 30+ mpg. Better yet by not tailgating I average 90,000+ miles before I need new brakes.

The problem is people just love to be stupid.


Stop & Go On The Freeway.
By Klinky1984 on 7/23/2010 9:00:37 PM , Rating: 3
What's really annoying to me is when the freeway is backed up and people will hit the gas only to move forward two or three car lengths, then hit the breaks. Rinse, repeat. Over and over. You can see the wave of red break lights emanating down the line of cars. I like to coast and give cars in front enough space so there is a buffer zone, this way I don't have to stop & in practice this should smooth out these bottlenecks.

I had one incident where a guy got road rage over it and was honking his horn, flipping me off and pointing that I needed to pull over into the right lane, which was jammed up because everyone was tailgating like was to me. Eventually the freeway cleared up and I sped up, only to have this idiot purposely overtake me and then slam on his breaks like a retard. Yeah, just cause major traffic accident because you're an idiot.




Only Bunta and Takumi Can Do It
By geokilla on 7/25/2010 3:40:17 PM , Rating: 1
Toyota thinks we're Fujiwara Bunta and his son Takumi. I'm sorry Toyota, but we're not. Americans don't have the car control that the two of them possess. Americans are too noob to drive properly.




By cubdukat on 7/26/2010 7:27:17 AM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that maybe 10% of Americans even know about "Initial D," if even that many, and that the Prius is not an AE86. That's the entire problem.


Dumb
By Suntan on 7/27/2010 11:42:41 AM , Rating: 1
Traditional engines are most efficient when the throttle is wide open. All things being equal, an engine will use less fuel when you press the gas down enthusiastically than it will when you just pussy-foot it to accelerate over a longer distance.

As or the comments pro/con tailgating. Where I live, it is the people that try to force a large gap between cars that are the most dangerous. A decent sized gap between you and the car in front is just an invitation for other cars in slower lanes to try and pull out in front of you.

-Suntan




RE: Dumb
By monkeyman1140 on 7/28/2010 5:51:48 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe on a dyno that's true, or you have a gas turbine under the hood, but remember that wind resistance increases at the square of the speed, so driving faster significantly reduces gas mileage.

Modern engines have complex management systems that constantly adjust the fuel/air mixture and spark and even valve timing, so the the "wide open throttle efficiency" theory doesn't apply.


Lol...
By quiksilvr on 7/23/2010 3:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
I thought this had something to do with keeping the car cooler with evaporative cooling air conditioning (like the Cool-n-Save misting system for AC units). But come to think of it, this would only work in low humidity environments.




Ad is misleading
By Cullinaire on 7/23/2010 9:46:30 PM , Rating: 2
Even Fujiwara Takumi (a master driver) had to at least put the cup of water in the cupholder while driving, yet the ad shows the cup sitting on top of the dash. Will the avg Toy driver be able to survive?
Not looking forward to all of the inevitable lawsuits.




By bar code on 7/23/2010 10:14:42 PM , Rating: 2
You're in luck, Anderson. The cup was empty.




Nothing new Toyota!
By bobny1 on 7/23/2010 10:34:41 PM , Rating: 2
I've being doing that for years. Driving with a cup of beer on my dash.;)




By Beenthere on 7/24/2010 10:11:21 AM , Rating: 2
...no need to make it worse by spilling water in your car.

BTW, hyper milers are dangerous fools who do not belong on the highways. They should take the bus.




How about coffee
By Shadowmaster625 on 7/26/2010 9:16:31 AM , Rating: 2
In the movie License to Drive, James Avery plays a driving instructor who places a cup of coffee on the dash. If you spilled it, you fail. lol




One of the few
By rburnham on 7/27/2010 10:51:56 AM , Rating: 2
It seems that about 90 percent of the drivers in this city leave less than one car length between them and the car in front of them, driving at an average speed of 55mph. Leaving any sort of reasonable distance between vehicles is the exception, not the norm, sadly.

I still try to be one of the few that leaves space. I have seen several accidents occur over the last five years because of tailgating or speeding down a turn lane. It just doesn't seem worth it to be so impatient and aggressive, when you are only saving a few seconds here or there.




Speeders are annoying
By cjohnson2136 on 7/27/2010 3:40:56 PM , Rating: 2
I have read almost all the comments in here and people are saying you learned that slow cars go to the right. I do not know about y'all but here the first thing I learned was OBEY THE SPEED LIMIT. If people would stop tailgating and go plus or minus 5 miles of the speed limit then every one would save on gas and it would help reduce traffic and accidents.




I drive like a crazy man
By monkeyman1140 on 7/28/2010 5:48:45 PM , Rating: 2
I still get 30mpg, mainly because my engine is a 2 liter OHC 4 banger.

These days having a V6 or a V8 is just a selling point for the car industry. Tiny engines these days put out astounding amounts of horsepower for their displacement.

I don't need a 500hp station wagon, thank you.




whats with those red light people?
By justniz on 7/29/2010 5:18:32 PM , Rating: 2
Whats up with those people that stop like 50 yards short of the next car in front when coming to a red light? The next thing is, the light goes green, then they take like 30 seconds to get rolling and go through just in time to hit the amber so everyone behind them is screwed.




whats with those red light people?
By justniz on 7/29/2010 5:18:42 PM , Rating: 2
Whats up with those people that stop like 50 yards short of the next car in front when coming to a red light? The next thing is, the light goes green, then they take like 30 seconds to get rolling and go through just in time to hit the amber so everyone behind them is screwed.




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