Print 63 comment(s) - last by Jedi2155.. on May 15 at 8:39 AM

  (Source: Toyota)
EV is more than twice the base price of a conventional RAV4, has 100-mile range

Toyota and Tesla have been talking about production plans for an electric version of the popular RAV4 crossover utility vehicle for nearly two years. Back in July 2010, Toyota and Tesla said that a production version of the EV would hit American streets in 2012.
True to their word, the pair officially unveiled the RAV4 EV at the 26th annual Electric Vehicle Symposium in Los Angeles, California. For those that were looking for the EV to be based on an all-new RAV4 platform, you'll be disappointed. The vehicle still appears to be largely based on the third-generation RAV4 that was introduced way back in 2005 and is long overdue for a redesign.

Stylistically, the RAV4 EV shares much with its gasoline counterpart in the way of exterior body panels. Key differences can be found up front with a redesigned bumper/grille and headlights (LED + halogen) along with clear taillight coverings out back. The center stack on the dashboard has been redesigned to incorporate automatic climate control and a large touch screen, but is otherwise familiar to current RAV4 owners.

The big changes, however, are beneath the bodywork. In place of a 4- or 6-cylinder gasoline engine is a Tesla-designed 154hp (115kW) electric motor that drives the front wheels. In normal mode, the RAV4 EV can hit 60 mph in 8.6 seconds. Switching to Sport mode cuts that time down to 7 seconds. Top speed is listed at a just 80 mph, which means that you won't be hogging the left lane on most interstates in the U.S. The maximum driving range is listed at 100 miles.

Toyota has partnered with Leviton to provide charging solutions for the RAV4 EV. Toyota says that the lithium-ion battery pack can be recharged in six hours with a Leviton 240V (Level 2), 40A, 9.6kW charging station. The vehicle also includes a 120V (Level 1) emergency charging cable when the driver doesn't have access to a Level 2 charger -- just expect to wait around a lot longer while the battery recharges.
For those keeping score, the battery warranty for the RAV4 EV is 8 years or 100,000 miles.
Toyota says that the RAV4 EV will go on sale this summer in select markets (Sacramento, San Francisco Bay Area, Los Angeles/Orange County and San Diego). There are no further details on if and when the vehicle will enter wider availability in the U.S.

For those that do choose a RAV4 EV, the price of entry will be a lofty $49,800 (since Toyota didn't make specific mention of it, we're assuming that this price is before the $7,500 federal tax credit for EVs and before any applicable state credits/rebates). For comparison, a base RAV4 (gasoline engine) with front-wheel drive rings in at a "modest" $22,650.

Source: Toyota

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For that price increase...
By 1ceTr0n on 5/7/2012 7:55:32 PM , Rating: 2
Could you buy alot of gas vs the standard model.

RE: For that price increase...
By 1ceTr0n on 5/7/12, Rating: -1
RE: For that price increase...
By WalksTheWalk on 5/8/2012 10:43:30 AM , Rating: 4
You're right. The price of this EV RAV4 is laughable when you base it mostly economic principles.

RE: For that price increase...
By kattanna on 5/8/12, Rating: 0
RE: For that price increase...
By Jedi2155 on 5/9/2012 12:54:04 AM , Rating: 1
Why would you buy any car more than $15,000? If it all gets you from point A to point B (reliably), you simply find the lowest cost option possible.

When you pay anymore than that, you are paying extra for an emotional response. High efficiency, national security, and all those reasons, while having some good points behind it, will barely affect you as a single individual buying a single vehicle. However it allows you to feel like you're a part of something bigger thus the emotional response.

The same argument can be said for luxury cars and sports cars. Except the emotional response is directed towards fulfilling your inner desires to have fun, while greenies, full fill our desire to support the greater good.

In both cases, they are emotional so I would argue that spending $40,000+ on a BMW/Mercedes is anything but logical if you get right down to it.

RE: For that price increase...
By DukeN on 5/9/2012 10:06:14 AM , Rating: 2

Someone buying a hybrid/EV for 'feeling good' is just as relevant as someone buying an Audi/Porsche for the speed.

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/9/12, Rating: 0
RE: For that price increase...
By Jedi2155 on 5/10/2012 2:48:56 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I have a plan to try to eventually make green technology mainstream, but the most important first step is to get the early adopters on board.

I think we are all in agreement that green technology is currently very expensive relatively, and still inaccessible to the masses. While I hope that with enough R&D, we may eventually reach that mass market appeal to maybe 5-10% of the US market within 10 years.

I think the only real problems with EV technology are the following:

1. Cost - They have not yet reached mass market prices without significant government subsidies with the latter part being the primary hatred on this board towards green technology in general. I would argue that green technology is spending towards national defense but that's another topic....

Still there is many within the EV industry with a plan to reduce this cost over the next decade (cheaper batteries primary).

2. Consumer Acceptance - The everyday Joe who normally goes into a dealer simply don't understand EV's or cars like the Volt as a result, they tend to buy things they already know and trust.

Most dealers don't understand how to sell the cars either, as a result using them simply has Halo cars to steer them elsewhere. But the dealers who KNOW how to sell them are certainly able to. One dealer in Michigan is able to sell 25 Volt's/Month....half of whom did not come in planning to buy one in the first place. That's the kicker. To give perspective of how many that is , there are about 4500 Chevy dealers in the US, if just each of them sold 3 per month, you would have a car that outsells both the Mustang and Camaro combined.

Educating the masses will take time as most only read headlines (EV catches on fires OMG!)...and word of mouth so as more and more people own them. Unfortunately due to the high entry cost, this will take a while for the grass roots movement grow, but the numbers are steadily growing. There are currently about 30-40,000 EV owners in the US most of whom love the technology and bring word of mouth recommendations.

3. Unknown Reliability - - While hybrid's are finally accepted, full EV's with lithium batteries are a relative unknown. Consumers are afraid of new technology, so it will take a few years for the technology to be proven before the masses will flock to it. This is where the early adopters (my part) come in to prove that the technology is viable now. We will all find out in a few years whether or not the technology is successful.

Although there already are a number of Toyota RAV4 EVs built over 12 years ago with NiMH batteries are still running strong to this day some numbering over 200,000 miles). I unfortunately do not have the same faith in the Leaf air cooled battery systems. I do however have greater faith in the reliability of the water cooled systems in the Tesla/GM/Ford systems. I think Fisker is just a crapshoot with poor quality control, who got way over their heads while chasing government money - the majority of the green tech firms IMO which resulted in the bubble.

Just my current opinion.

RE: For that price increase...
By JKflipflop98 on 5/13/2012 1:03:28 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree. I'm certainly no hippie, but I do see the value in not mucking up our world any more than we have to. No reason to turn the whole planet into a dump.

That being said, I'm not going to be buying a RAV4 anytime soon. Much less a $50K one.

RE: For that price increase...
By Jedi2155 on 5/15/2012 8:39:24 AM , Rating: 2
Neither would I, which is why Toyota probably realized there would only be about 2600 suckers who would.

RE: For that price increase...
By sigmatau on 5/8/2012 12:32:49 PM , Rating: 3
STFU troll.

RE: For that price increase...
By Reclaimer77 on 5/7/12, Rating: 0
RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/7/2012 10:54:00 PM , Rating: 2
What's STILL hilarious is that NONE of these clowns will buy one (until they make one for $20k HA!) but are MORE than happy to tell those that can afford one that it's our only choice in vehicles.

RE: For that price increase...
By Jedi2155 on 5/8/2012 2:21:42 AM , Rating: 4
What are you talking bought, I'm loving my Volt.

RE: For that price increase...
By Dr of crap on 5/8/12, Rating: 0
RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 11:45:41 AM , Rating: 2
What are you talking bought, I'm loving my Volt.
Read my post again. BTW, we have actually considered the Volt but doesn't make sense considering my wifes (car is for her) choices:

1. BMW 135i or 335i
2. BMW X1 sDrive35i (not yet released)
3. Lincoln MKX
4. Infiniti G37
5. Infiniti EX35

The Volt just doesn't provide enough luxury/sportiness for that price. We DO understand that battery packs are expensive. We're just not willing to pay the premium for one (especially when it only gets 40 mpg on the gas engine). In all honesty, if it got 50 mpg on the engine with a bit more power and comparable handling, we would seriously consider one.

RE: For that price increase...
By Jeffk464 on 5/8/2012 2:23:30 PM , Rating: 2
Go with the BMW 328i, you get high performance luxury and still get good mileage. Its a no brainer, of course the infinity is probably a little more reliable.

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 3:11:03 PM , Rating: 2
328i would be fine BUT I don't want a first year engine (new 2L turbo) and we're going back to leasing (hence new car...used car would bump the cost per mile actually). She's currently driving a diesel pickup so literally anything will get better gas mileage. As long as she gets mid 20's, we'll be in the black (IOW, the car will make us a little money over the truck).

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 3:17:33 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly, the Lincoln is number one choice so far. Reliability on Lincoln's is better than all the cars on that list. It drives awesome (surprised the crap out of me frankly...we drove it and the Edge on two different occasions) and gets comparable fuel economy. When the X1 is available, we'll try that one out too. Believe it or not, that list has been narrowed down significantly. LOL! It was MUCH longer before.

RE: For that price increase...
By Jeffk464 on 5/8/2012 8:25:20 PM , Rating: 2
Another one to look at my be the 2013 Cadillac ATS. It was designed to be a direct competitor to the 3 series. Can't say about reliability but the early reviews were positive.

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 8:49:43 PM , Rating: 2
Another one to look at my be the 2013 Cadillac ATS.
Definitely check that one out too.

RE: For that price increase...
By Keeir on 5/8/2012 5:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
Over 100,000 miles, Purchase Price + Fuel only. Fuel at ~4 Dollars a gaollon.

1. 55,000-70,000 depending on options
2. Unknown
3. 60,000-70,000 depending on options
4. 55,000-65,000
5. 60,000-70,000

Err... the Volt over 100,000 miles? ~50,000-55,000 pre government rebate. 45,000-50,000 post.

The Volt is -significantly- cheaper than those cars. Now I am not saying the Volt is the right car, but you aren't comparing apples to oranges here at all. Given your other choices on the list, your more a Model S customer level. A 50,000-60,000 Model S is more in line in terms of price, even in California, with your choices.

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 5:26:05 PM , Rating: 2
I said,
The Volt just doesn't provide enough luxury/sportiness for that price.

Where did I mention economics?

Some corrections though:

1. 135i starts at $39k, 335i at $42k..both can be had for $45k nicely equipped. Even a loaded 335i is no where near $70k, not sure where you got that from. M3 maybe?
2. X1 starts at $31k for the turbo 4 and $39k for the 6. Don't know about options. It's on the 3 series platform so options should be like the 3.
3. Starts at $39k, we're looking at $45k again very nicely equipped in this case.
4. Under $45k
5. This one is closer to $50k, pretty pricey compared to competition. Nice car though.

RE: For that price increase...
By Keeir on 5/9/2012 2:56:02 PM , Rating: 2
Spuke, I said over 100,000 miles.

Unless something strange happens, Gasoline isn't going to be less than 4 dollars over the next 5-7 years. I'm even spoting you some dollars since premium gasoline is 4+ today

Project cost of Fueling for 100,000 miles

1. ~17,000-20,000
2. ~17,000-20,000
3. ~18,000-21,000
4. ~17,000-19,000
5. ~18,000-21,000

I notice elsewhere you mentioned leasing. Lets compare (from Manufactures websites)

Volt: 349 per month/36 months/~2,500 due at signing --> 15064
335i: 459 per month/36 months/~4,200 due at signing --> 20724

Assuming 30,000 miles traveled, fuel cost for the Volt ~2000. For the 335i ~5000.

End expected Lease Cost
Volt: 17,500
335i: 26,000
Increase: 45-50% more!

Which is what my point is... if you make a list that includes the 135i or the 335i as options, then the Volt -can't- make the list even as an option because it clearly not going to perform as well, it just cost too much less. Heck, a fricken Versa Sedan over a 36 month 30,000 lease is cost ~13,500. The Volt's lease is closer to the Versa Sedan in price than the 335i.

And I am not even including the extra 6000 miles the Volt gives you (36 months/36,000 miles versus 36 months/30,000 miles).

RE: For that price increase...
By DukeN on 5/9/2012 10:08:30 AM , Rating: 2
Check out the Lincoln MKZ hybrid.

IIRC it's basically an EV for speeds under 40MPH.

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/9/2012 1:50:11 PM , Rating: 2
Check out the Lincoln MKZ hybrid.
If the mileage turns out to be as high as they're expecting, we'll at least give it a test drive.

RE: For that price increase...
By Reclaimer77 on 5/8/2012 5:19:19 PM , Rating: 1
Do you love it enough to give back your $7,500+, you goddamn leech?

RE: For that price increase...
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 5:31:00 PM , Rating: 2
Do you love it enough to give back your $7,500+, you goddamn leech?
Hopefully he didn't get any of the credit or only part of it.

RE: For that price increase...
By Jedi2155 on 5/8/2012 9:58:25 PM , Rating: 2
I qualify for all of it and more. I pay more than my fair share of taxes.

By Jeffk464 on 5/7/2012 7:39:59 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't that the same price as the much cooler testla sedan? Same motor, controller, and battery pack in both right?

RE: testla
By Brandon Hill on 5/7/2012 7:44:48 PM , Rating: 5
The base Tesla Model S is $49k after the $7,500 federal tax credit.

RE: testla
By Jeffk464 on 5/7/2012 8:00:06 PM , Rating: 2
The model S is absolutely beautiful though. I would definitely buy one in gasoline form. Of course maybe having an engine and transmission prevents having those lines. Kind of like Chevy sticking with horribly outdated pushrods in the vett so they could have a lower hood line.

RE: testla
By Jeffk464 on 5/7/2012 8:04:44 PM , Rating: 1
Is it just me or did Ford "borrow" a lot from the model S styling for their new Fusion?

RE: testla
By Brandon Hill on 5/7/2012 8:09:39 PM , Rating: 4
They borrowed from Aston Martin, which they used to own.

RE: testla
By Spuke on 5/7/2012 10:46:45 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, that price is steep! Yuck!

RE: testla
By MrBlastman on 5/8/2012 11:29:45 AM , Rating: 2
Citizens aren't the only ones looking for handouts here! Look right here, I present exhibit A to the defense, Toyota's high price >49k dependent on the Federal tax credit >7k with the price of the vehicle being more than _double_ that of a gasoline powered Rav 4.

Oh, I didn't even mention that the range of the EV version, which costs more than twice as much is more than three times as less? Really? All I see here is a bunch of fat execs laughing as they chomp on their cigars (why smoke them when you're making this much money) as silly people "buy" into this fallacy that they'll be saving money.

Saving money? Hahahaha really? Where's the savings here? You're paying over 25k for this lump of metal full of oxides more than you need to. How long does it take to make up that 25k in gas? I'm not even going to bother computing it given this Herring's pathetic range, it is pointless and instead give an easy answer: _a long time_!

If you buy this, I'd like to sell you this bag of dirt. It isn't ordinary dirt, no, it is the dust of aliens! It's worth MILLIONS in Antares. You'll make out like a bandit as soon as they arrive in December on the eve of our annhiliation. Act fast, buy now! Supplies are limited!

RE: testla
By Jedi2155 on 5/8/2012 2:24:14 AM , Rating: 3
Toyota has stated they plan to sell 2600 of these over the next 3 years. That's about 70 cars a month. This is going to be a big hit.

Truth be told, Toyota doesn't believe in full electric cars yet and the only reason they have this is because they need to fill a California mandate. Its simply a "compliance" car.

RE: testla
By kattanna on 5/8/2012 10:23:02 AM , Rating: 1
Toyota has stated they plan to sell 2600 of these over the next 3 years. That's about 70 cars a month. This is going to be a big hit

seriously? how is selling 70 cars a month a "big" hit?

RE: testla
By Mizerable on 5/8/2012 11:00:56 AM , Rating: 3
The following will be surprising for you, and only you: you're stupid.

RE: testla
By kattanna on 5/8/2012 12:02:34 PM , Rating: 2

the more you know...


Evolution can be beautiful
By wordsworm on 5/8/2012 2:07:36 AM , Rating: 1
The fact that there's no tail pipe on the rear of that vehicle makes a world of difference between it and its gas guzzling twin.

I wonder how much a replacement battery would be for this vehicle. Electric engines are typically much longer lived than internal combustion engines. Provided you don't bang it around, a vehicle like this could last a life time while diminishing the damage to the environment and saving a lot of money on fuel costs.

RE: Evolution can be beautiful
By 1ceTr0n on 5/8/2012 2:53:32 AM , Rating: 2
And here we go.....

RE: Evolution can be beautiful
By djc208 on 5/8/2012 8:02:41 AM , Rating: 3
True, it probably would last a long time, mainly because all your real mileage would have to be put on the other "regular" car you'd have to own or rent to get anywhere further than the edge of town.

Might want to factor that into your calculations on savings to the environment and fuel.

RE: Evolution can be beautiful
By MrBlastman on 5/8/2012 12:05:49 PM , Rating: 2
It won't last a lifetime and I'll tell you why; my answer might even shock or surprise you. The reason it won't last a lifetime is regulation.


How? How when the trend has been regulation via legislation to support a movement towards these vehicles?

Easy. When enough environmentalists realize they are sucking down toxins in their lattes and smoothies that have sept into the groundwater/atmosphere/pyramid rays from the production and disposal of the batteries, they will subsequently cry/piss/whine about the batteries needing to be more tightly regulated as they are an environmental hazard too!

Thus, the vicious cycle will continue. Your car for life will in the end, only be a simple rental--which will be turned in as soon as current policy expires.

RE: Evolution can be beautiful
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 12:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
Battery packs for EV's are around $14-$15,000. Also, how long would it take to recoup $20,000 in fuel costs (difference in price between this and the gasoline RAV4)? Not worth it to me.

RE: Evolution can be beautiful
By Jeffk464 on 5/8/2012 2:26:13 PM , Rating: 2
especially since the gas version is already fairly cheap to operate. We aren't talking a chevy Tahoe here.

RE: Evolution can be beautiful
By wordsworm on 5/8/2012 7:40:31 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe a mechanic here can comment on the average longevity of a combustion engine vs an electric engine. There are probably a lot more differences between an EV and a GV than a semi-interested lay person (speaking of myself) would be aware of. ie., you don't need a gas tank for an EV. What about drive belts, brakes, etc.? Do regenerative brakes cause less or more wear and tear?

Even with my limited capacity, I can foresee many differences between the two models from a mechanical perspective.

In any case, as an atheist, I'm not counting on Jesus to keep us in a perpetual supply of oil or mitigate the damage that our use of fossil fuels causes.

Why only in California?
By Dr of crap on 5/8/2012 8:11:55 AM , Rating: 2
Because it's a law that a percentage of cars must be emmission free, or something like that.

So that's why we have EV's offered by everyone, yet they don't sell in big numbers.

And that's reason they are offered in California first, of course that warm weather doesn't hurt. I'd like to see it reach 100 miles here in the winter when the temps never go above zero! This will be a gas burning place for a long time since we need to stay warm.

RE: Why only in California?
By Schrag4 on 5/8/2012 11:49:46 AM , Rating: 2
If history has taught us anything, we also know that a handful of celebrities will also buy these and go on TV to preach about they're saving the environment with their car. If you're only planning on selling 70 per month, the green-celebrity-factor is actually significant.

RE: Why only in California?
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 12:13:07 PM , Rating: 2
Except those "celebrities" only drive these vehicles to awards shows then go home and get the Aston Martin for the after parties.

RE: Why only in California?
By Schrag4 on 5/8/2012 1:41:25 PM , Rating: 2
Let's assume they actually DO only drive around town in their electric vehicles (yeah right). I bet most of them use more jet fuel in a year than my family will use during my lifetime. And their houses are huge, filled with lots of power-hungry devices. And so on.

I don't fault them for using more energy than my family. If they can afford it, more power to them. I only fault them for asking us to do as they say, not as they do.

RE: Why only in California?
By Spuke on 5/8/2012 5:32:15 PM , Rating: 2
I only fault them for asking us to do as they say, not as they do.
That's my only issue as well.

RE: Why only in California?
By DukeN on 5/9/2012 10:09:48 AM , Rating: 1
How the fuck do you know this? Did you stalk every single celebrity that endorsed a hybrid/EV and chalk up a scoreboard? Or did you just pull this conclusion out of your ass?

RE: Why only in California?
By Spuke on 5/9/2012 1:52:35 PM , Rating: 2
Because living in California, every part of these worthless peoples lives are on local TV for all of us to see. They follow them to the shows, the after parties, or the friggin grocery stores. RARELY do you ever see them in Prius' other than at some public event.

Poor range
By Guspaz on 5/8/2012 10:22:30 AM , Rating: 2
The thing has the same range as the Leaf, but costs $14,000 more... The RAV4 is a much larger vehicle than the Leaf, they should have used that fact to fit more batteries in the thing.

RE: Poor range
By Keeir on 5/8/2012 5:11:24 PM , Rating: 2

The Leaf's range in 73 miles. IF the 100 miles is EPA 100 miles, than this car has ~30% more range.

RE: Poor range
By Jaybus on 5/9/2012 2:20:15 PM , Rating: 2
The 73 mile range of the Leaf is based on the US Environmental Protection Agency range rating of 117 km. It is rated 175 km on the New European Driving Cycle, which is about 109 miles. Apparently, in Europe they believe the typical use scenario is driving mostly downhill at slow speeds. In the real world, even the US EPA's lower rating is overly generous.

Some idiots will buy it
By overlandpark4me on 5/9/2012 1:32:32 AM , Rating: 2
so they can tell their neighbors they're "saving" the plant

RE: Some idiots will buy it
By DukeN on 5/9/2012 10:07:44 AM , Rating: 2
But idiots that buy Mustangs and Challengers so they can have the 'power' and 'speed' so they can be stuck in traffic too are cool though, right?

RE: Some idiots will buy it
By Rott3nHIppi3 on 5/9/2012 3:39:23 PM , Rating: 2
But idiots that buy Mustangs and Challengers so they can have the 'power' and 'speed' so they can be stuck in traffic too are cool though, right?

Uhmm... Yeah! In fact, the traffic will give you enough time to soak up the drool running down your face as you stare at the curves of the new body style! You could have been cool too, but alas you succumbed to the rhetoric of Al to make the decisions for you! PS.. did you see the new study linking Dinosaur farts to AGW? This "climate change is man's fault" is starting to sound more and more like BS the more scientists actually do their job!

But lets stick to the coolness vs guilt comparison here, AGW Crusader. Let's pretend James Cameron wants to re-do "Better off Dead" for 2013. Does he have Cusack drive around in a new Camaro or a RAV4 EV? LOL! Coolness wins, every time!

"This mountain is made entirely of snow! Do you know what the street value of this is?" Epic!

Reeks of protectionism from Toyota
By DukeN on 5/9/2012 10:12:31 AM , Rating: 2
Really high priced IMO (and I love hybrids/EVs).

This reeks a lot of their efforts to not give EVs an actual chance because it hurts their core profit centres (servicing ICE vehicles).

There's no reason this RAV EV could've been much more evolved than the one 10 years back. But this to me is just a gimmick from Toyota to keep up PR appearances, while really trying to protect their bread and butter, the ICE engine vehicle (which hybrids also have).

By Jaybus on 5/9/2012 2:25:55 PM , Rating: 2
No. It is because they're anticipating the coming government mandates that they offer non-ICE vehicles. Simple as that. More wasted effort due to government interference.

By piroroadkill on 5/9/2012 5:38:36 AM , Rating: 2
So it couldn't even manage the range of the original RAV4 EV?

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