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Plug-in Prius concept
Plug-in Prius expected to get 134 mpg rating but see much less than that in real world

The Toyota Prius is one of the most successful hybrid vehicles in America. Many consumers have been calling for Toyota to make a plug-in hybrid version of the Prius that would allow fully electric driving on battery power alone.

Toyota announced early in December that it was starting the production for a test fleet of plug-in hybrid Prius vehicles. The Japanese automaker also said that the production run for the test program would be 500 vehicles and that they would use first generation lithium-on battery packs.

Toyota has now officially launched the program and is set to get about 600 plug-in Prius' onto the market globally with retail sales by 2011. Toyota will lease about 230 of the vehicles to government ministries and corporations like power companies and other industries in Japan. Of the production vehicles, 150 of them will make their way to the U.S. to be leased to government agencies, corporations, universities, and research agencies. Europe will get 200 units with 100 of the cars going to the City of Strasbourg in France.

The plug-in Prius will be connected to an AC outlet in the home to charge and the new lithium-ion battery packs that replace the standard Prius' nickel-metal hydride batteries will give an all-electric driving range that is optimistically pegged at 13 miles.

Autoblog Green reports that the plug-in Prius will be rated at 134 mpg, but about 50 mpg is expected in real world use. The Prius was able to run 14.5 miles on the Japanese JC08 cycle before the battery was dead. Presumably, like the standard Prius, the electric motor will kick on when needed for acceleration and at other times. Toyota offers no hard details on how the new powertrain will operate. Toyota hopes to sell tens of thousands of the plug-in Prius' to the public within two years.

Toyota's Irv Miller said earlier this month, "This program is a necessary first step in societal preparation, in that it allows us the unique opportunity to inform, educate, and prepare customers for the introduction of plug-in hybrid technology. When these vehicles come to market, customers must understand what to expect and if this technology is the right fit for them."


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Societal Preparation?
By Lord 666 on 12/15/2009 10:35:11 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously... your customers and competitors have been modifiying your Prius's to adopt plug-in technology for a very long time. Yet, you state this vehicle as the ncessary "societal preparation" for adoption?

If your listening; put a diesel motor in this Prius and I'll buy two.




RE: Societal Preparation?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/15/2009 10:36:46 AM , Rating: 4
Are you talking a diesel engine in place of the gasoline-electric hybrid powertrain altogether, or a diesel engine (to replace the current gas motor) in conjunction with the hybrid powertrain?

If it's the former, I doubt it would get much better fuel economy; if it's the latter, it would be even more expensive.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By inperfectdarkness on 12/15/2009 11:27:06 AM , Rating: 2
what if the engine was modified to run ONLY on e85?


RE: Societal Preparation?
By barrychuck on 12/15/2009 2:45:34 PM , Rating: 3
Here's a concept, take gasoline which has 125,000 Btu/gal and cut it with 15% alcohol which has 76,000 Btu/gal. This means E85 has aproximately 112,750 Btu/gal. That's more than 12,000 less Btus per gallon (the same as a pound of coal)! This ensures that you will get less mileage from any vehicle burning E85. This means over the life of the vehicle you will burn more gallons of fuel, which has to be transported which burns even more fuel.

If that isn't enough, take the fact that alcohol tends to draw moisture from the air and thus you end up with E85 + water in your fuel. This is why E85 vehicle require special fuel systems made of stainless. I am really curious how burning more fuel lowers emissions.

Now if we go to diesel at 139,000 Btu/gal, and diesel engines are more efficient, we know we will further increase MPG by a significant number. The car burns less fuel and less fuel is transported to the filling station which means further reductions in total consumption. This means less total emissions and truly a better solution.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By seeker353 on 12/15/2009 4:46:03 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, you're cutting 85% ethanol with 15% gasoline, not the other way around. This makes the average around 81,000 BTU/gal, even worse that you calculated.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By lco45 on 12/15/2009 6:26:16 PM , Rating: 1
No, it's 85% gasoline with 15% ethanol.

Luke


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Alexvrb on 12/15/2009 6:44:41 PM , Rating: 3
No. Just no. "Regular" gasoline now in most states is 10% (or more) ethanol, which you could call "E10" if you wanted. E85, as the name implies, is 85% ETHANOL and 15% gasoline. Seeker is correct, you and Barry are wrong. You can usually burn E10, E15, even E20 in regular gasoline engines without any issues.

E85 requires modifications to run properly in a conventional gasoline powered ICE, otherwise it will run too lean (best case scenario, possibly worse things could happen). "Flexfuel" vehicles are pre-modified to burn E85 or regular gasoline, or any mix of the two.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By lco45 on 12/15/2009 7:16:48 PM , Rating: 3
I stand corrected.

Luke


RE: Societal Preparation?
By kufeifie on 12/15/09, Rating: -1
RE: Societal Preparation?
By lco45 on 12/15/2009 6:42:48 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I am really curious how burning more fuel lowers emissions.


If the fuel is grown, the growing process consumes carbon from the atmosphere, which is later released during combustion.

If the fuel is mined (coal) or drilled (oil), the carbon was already trapped, and combustion releases it into the atmosphere.

Burning ethanol does to lower the amount of carbon in the atmosphere, but burning fossil fuel increases the amount of carbon.

Whether adding carbon to the atmosphere causes global warming or not is another discussion. (Hint: it does. There goes my rating...)

Luke


RE: Societal Preparation?
By lco45 on 12/15/2009 6:44:08 PM , Rating: 2
Meant to say, "burning ethanol does not lower the amount of carbon..."


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Pneumothorax on 12/15/2009 12:01:56 PM , Rating: 1
So what if it's more expensive... It would still be cheaper than the Volt.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Lord 666 on 12/15/2009 3:35:31 PM , Rating: 2
Brandon,

The latter; swap out the Plug-in Prius petrol powered motor for a diesel one. As someone else stated, even though the diesel is more money then petrol, it would still be cheaper than a Volt. Plus, I know you drive a Prius; with a diesel, the fuel consumption would be lower, but with a more desirable powerband at highway speeds.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Alexvrb on 12/15/2009 7:15:46 PM , Rating: 2
Actually at highway speeds with a CVT or a competent 6 speed gearbox, I'd rather have more horsepower. You hit the pedal, it downshifts, and bam you're off. Everyone assumes that extra torque is going to make them faster. BOTH are important, really, and a lot of these small diesels have oodles of torque but lack horsepower.

Here's a great example: 335i 3.0L turbo vs 335d 3.0L turbo diesel. The gasoline engine puts out 300/300 HP/ft-lbs. The diesel puts out 265/425. 425 ft-lbs of torque, very impressive. Yet it is slower to 60MPH and slower in the 1/4 mile.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Lord 666 on 12/15/2009 10:29:59 PM , Rating: 2
Using your example of the US BMWs; yes the diesel is slower 0-60. However, my earlier post stated highway speeds where 30-50 and 50-70 count more. Due to the high amount of torque, the diesels are superior for highway passing than the petrol motor in same car. http://www.examiner.com/x-2270-NY-Autos-Examiner~y...

The current generation of Prius has 105lbs torque. My 2006 TDI has 177lbs torque with the 2010 TDI having 236. When on the Parkway, my car will have no problem passing 6 cylinder cars in the 70-90 range, but cannot go faster than 100mph since it only has 100hp. Don't know what a Prius does 50-70 or 70-90 in, but if the motor was swapped out with a diesel, the highway performance would be greatly improved given the displacement stays the same or even slightly smaller due to the greater amount of torque.

In other words, a diesel plug-in Prius would have the best of three worlds.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By encia on 12/16/2009 6:24:13 AM , Rating: 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

For Gen 3,

Electric motor:
Power: 80 hp
Torque: 153 lb-ft

Did you forget the purpose of Prius's electric motors?


RE: Societal Preparation?
By encia on 12/16/2009 6:50:01 AM , Rating: 2
Prius's ICE with a supercharger add-on indicates otherwise.

Prius’s electrical systems must be upgraded i.e.
1. ICE can rev without driving the wheels.
2. Without electic motors, the ICE can't drive the wheels. It doesn't have a standard transmission.

Both Toyota Prius or Ford Fusion Hybrids doesn't follow the definition of parallel hybrid model.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Spuke on 12/16/2009 6:50:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, my earlier post stated highway speeds where 30-50 and 50-70 count more.
Your link doesn't back up your passing times. Please post passing times from comparable cars. Since all US 335d are automatics and sedans, you'll need to compare the times from a auto, sedan 335i. The original poster is correct that BOTH hp and torque are equally important hp doesn't just show itself at higher rpms.

The low hp of the 335d compared to the high torque indicates a narrower powerband than the 335i. No news here as that's typical of diesel engines. They make tons of torque at low rpms and it trails off quickly. I'd rather have BOTH. High hp AND high torque. That makes for a WIDE powerband where you're fast everywhere.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By kufeifie on 12/15/09, Rating: 0
RE: Societal Preparation?
By Einy0 on 12/15/2009 11:10:47 AM , Rating: 4
Yes a diesel hybrid would be the best overall...


RE: Societal Preparation?
By sxr7171 on 12/15/2009 12:49:10 PM , Rating: 2
Without a doubt. Just run it at optimal efficiency to charge the battery and it will really kick gasoline's tail.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By dnd728 on 12/15/2009 5:36:03 PM , Rating: 3
Jet-hybrid is even better, and still I can't claim it's the best.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1724641/hy...


RE: Societal Preparation?
By lco45 on 12/15/2009 6:48:26 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, that's the big advantage to the Volt's system, where the ICE doesn't drive the wheels directly.

The Volt's ICE has no drive train, and runs like a generator at whichever RPM is most effective, unlike a normal car's engine which has to run through a range of RPM because it's connected to the road via drive train and tires.

Luke


RE: Societal Preparation?
By encia on 12/16/2009 6:30:49 AM , Rating: 2
Prius is not normal car.

Without the electric motors, Prius’s ICE can’t drive the wheels.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By walk2k on 12/15/09, Rating: 0
RE: Societal Preparation?
By consumerwhore on 12/15/2009 2:09:32 PM , Rating: 2
Well, you might be, but I'm not in the habit of parking my car in my living room.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Keeir on 12/15/2009 3:22:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Well, you might be, but I'm not in the habit of parking my car in my living room.


Errr.... the majority of US citizens, and Canadian too I would think, park in a situation where overnight charing using 110/120V would be availible or easy to install. 220/240V might be more restrictive.

I also think that it should be fairly simple to develop/make a "locking" chord that prevent casual vandals from damaging electric port on car or stealing electricity. Considering that people leave their cars lying about an a Vandal can do hundreds of dollars of damage with a key and 60 seconds..... having a locking chord designed to break post the connection/locking device seems a reasonable risk


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Spuke on 12/15/2009 6:03:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Errr.... the majority of US citizens, and Canadian too I would think, park in a situation where overnight charing using 110/120V would be availible or easy to install. 220/240V might be more restrictive.
There are places (like NYC) where there really isn't any dedicated parking, at least not for the masses. You would need some kind of meter where you could slide a card to get a charge.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By Spuke on 12/15/2009 3:26:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What infastructure? Electric outlets? Oh yeah, those are real hard to find...
Are you being sarcastic? There really isn't an infrastructure for charging EV's. At least not in the US.


RE: Societal Preparation?
By kufeifie on 12/15/2009 7:26:34 PM , Rating: 1
Christmas gifts come in to pick:
=====h t t p : / / w w w . b h s h o e . c o m====
jewerly $20
ugg boots$50
jordan shoes$32
handbag$35
h t t p : / / w w w . b h s h o e . c o m


RE: Societal Preparation?
By kufeifie on 12/15/2009 7:32:01 PM , Rating: 2
Christmas gifts come in to pick:
=====h t t p : / / w w w . b h s h o e . c o m====
jewerly $20
ugg boots$50
jordan shoes$32
handbag$35
h t t p : / / w w w . b h s h o e . c o m


RE: Societal Preparation?
By aqwan135 on 12/20/2009 8:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
http://ta.gg/3yu

fr ee sh i pp ing

(jordan shoes) $32

(air max) $34

+++

wow


RE: Societal Preparation?
By aqwan135 on 12/20/2009 8:22:51 PM , Rating: 2
http://ta.gg/3yu

fr ee sh i pp ing

(jordan shoes) $32

(air max) $34

+++

wow


RE: Societal Preparation?
By aqwan135 on 12/20/09, Rating: 0
Confused at the 50 MPG real world
By MrAlexander006 on 12/15/2009 11:51:01 AM , Rating: 2
It's strange that the article says 50 MPG is expected in the real world. That's pretty much what I get with the standard non-plug-in version... My guess is that real world MPG must be much higher than 50.




RE: Confused at the 50 MPG real world
By dubldwn on 12/15/2009 12:37:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, the linked article gives a better explanation of expected mpg and how they arrived at those numbers. The current Prius gets 50 mpg.


RE: Confused at the 50 MPG real world
By Keeir on 12/15/2009 1:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
As a note, its Autobloggreen who has applied SAE J1711 and SAE J2841 methods to acchieve that 134 MPG rating. I don't think Toyota has made an offical statement regarding US EPA ratings.

I doubt that the Prius will acchieve this rating on actual EPA testing.

Why? Because
#1. Its unclear if the PHEV Prius from Toyota can pass City or HWY US cycles without use of gasoline assist. Supposedly Toyota has produced Demo cars capable of at least City US cycles. Yet a top EV speed of ~62 MPH doesn't give me confidence the car is capable of providing the peak power numbers from EV alone during US city cycle.

#2. ABG just took JC08 results to calculate the SAE J1711 (foundation of EPA method) ratings. To get 134 MPG US EPA it would be required to travel ~14.5 miles -before gas operation- and ~70 MPG post this point. We already know that the Prius won't acchieve these numbers on US City Cycle. 10-12 AER (provided its capable of performing the Cycle) and 50-55 MPG are more reasonable. This leads to a US EPA rating more like 80 MPG AND 10 kWh/100 miles (City) (BTW the Hymotion Coversion Kit is around 70-80 MPG)

Or

25 MPG City Car (Civic/Corrola)
4 gallons/100 miles

Prius
2 gallons/100 Miles

PHEV Prius
1.25 gallons/100 Miles + 10 kWh/100 miles

EREV Volt
0.43 gallons/100 miles + 25 kWh/100 miles

Tesla Roadster
32 kWh/100 miles

Using the above, its fairly clear that the Plug-in Prius replaces ~24.7 kWh of gasoline Engergy with 10 kWh (from the wall!) Electric Power. (This is on average) If the above guesses are reasonably correct, the PHEV does the most efficient job of replacing gasoline with electricity, so it passes the reasonability test.


RE: Confused at the 50 MPG real world
By lco45 on 12/15/2009 6:59:02 PM , Rating: 2
Mileage figures for PHEV's are basically meaningless, because they vary so wildly depending on the average distance driven.

If the vehicle has a 40 mile battery range, then switches to liquid fuel (say 40mpg) then:
- 40 mile trips use zero gallons (infinity mpg)
- 80 mile trips use one gallon (80 mpg)
- 200 mile trips use four gallons (50 mpg)

Then there's the confusion of how to define the all-electric part of the trip in miles per gallon. That depends on the source of the electricity. If your electricity comes from the world's most inefficient coal plant then your "mileage" is still bad under electric, because you're effectively burning a lot of coal for your first 40 miles, although I think with a normal coal plant it comes to an effective 200mpg, which is pretty good.

Luke


Skip the hype
By Beenthere on 12/15/09, Rating: 0
RE: Skip the hype
By Shining Arcanine on 12/15/2009 10:58:44 AM , Rating: 2
The Prius is not an electric vehicle. It is a hybrid.


RE: Skip the hype
By marvdmartian on 12/15/2009 11:03:50 AM , Rating: 1
Pure electric vehicles, yes. This one's still a hybrid car, with plug in capability, supposedly for greater range. Of course, if your gasoline engine is recharging your battery pack, why do you need a plug? Hmmmm....

Better question. If I put a giant spring in this, and add a key-wound capability that will get me 3 miles down the road on spring power alone, can I say that the car now gets 200mpg?? ;)


RE: Skip the hype
By glennpratt on 12/15/2009 11:29:51 AM , Rating: 2
If the average person gets that increase in mileage on an average trip, I say yes.

You could argue the EPA needs a third mileage catagory for PHEVs aimed at the average commute cycle (less than 40 miles, mixed highway and city) and add estimated electrical usage. I take 1-2 car trips a year, I care far more about everyday performance than gas only operation (half my round trip commute in this would be electric).

For now I can tolerate the ratings being biased towards the way most people drive .


RE: Skip the hype
By encia on 12/16/2009 6:55:16 AM , Rating: 2
Fail
By Shadowself on 12/15/2009 4:11:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
... give an all-electric driving range that is optimisitically pegged at 13 miles


So optimistically my range would be 6.5 miles one way? Pessimistically it's 5 miles?

How many people who use their own car for commuting live less than 5 to 6.5 miles from work? I'd suspect very few in the U.S.

So why even consider a plug in rather than just a hybrid if the all electric range is totally impractical?




RE: Fail
By Keeir on 12/15/2009 5:34:48 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, also note that the Maximum power would limit you to ~ 1 m/s^2 acceleration at ~30 mph. (Guess based on maximum speed of EV mode)

But its not the point of this car to provide a useful EV range. The point is to use the EV motor instead of the gasoline where the gasoline motor is very inefficient or to move the gasoline motor to the peak efficieny point more often. IE exchange gasoline for electric power.

It does so fairly effectively.

If your state has reasonable electricity prices and generates power from Nuclear, Wind, Solar, NG, etc (everything but coal), you have lowered your emissions, lowered your CO2, lowered your cost per mile, lowered your demand for foriegn oil over a normal Hybrid.

Sure if you drive 100-200 miles between charging times, then it will be small over a normal Hybrid. If you drive a more reasonable 50 miles per day, you may come close to halving your gasoline usage over a normal hybrid (or reducing to 25% over a normal car)


By GregBlencoe on 12/16/2009 12:32:33 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota and Honda know all about the problems with plug-in battery cars. They have been trying to tell people about them for the last couple of years.

"Top 20 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives criticizing plug-in battery cars"

http://www.h2carblog.com/?p=577

Plug-in hybrid cars are either too expensive (e.g. Chevy Volt) or only slightly better than a standard hybrid (e.g. plug-in Prius).

Furthermore, battery-only cars have lots of problems.

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, which will be arriving at dealerships in 2015, are far superior to battery-only cars when it comes to driving range, fueling time, cold weather performance, and trunk/passenger space (i.e. things mainstream consumers care A LOT about).

Toyota will be bringing "affordable" hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to market around 2015. I highly recommend reading the following short article.

"7 reasons to love Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicles"

http://www.h2carblog.com/?p=16

Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
"Hydrogen Car Revolution" blog




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