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More battery output coming in summer 2010

Hybrids are booming in the U.S. thanks to the fuel efficient and green nature of the cars. The government $4,500 gas-guzzler trade-in program also helped sales of fuel-efficient cars and hybrids during the month of July in America.

Toyota is seeing very robust sales of its new Prius. Sales are so good in fact that many dealers have waiting lists for the vehicles that are months long. Toyota says that it can’t simply increase production of the Prius, which is crushing the Honda Insight in sales, because its battery partner can’t produce more batteries.

Toyota currently has the capacity to produce 500,000 Prius hybrids each year and its battery partner Panasonic EV Energy (PEVE) can't make any more of the batteries the Prius relies on at this point.

Toyota's Takahiko Ijichi said, "The new Prius model has been excessively popular, inconveniencing some of our customers, and the factories are working overtime at full capacity. Unfortunately, the batteries are not catching up with demand. Production of the batteries needs to be increased in order for our production to go up."

PEVE says that it will increase production capacity for the battery packs needed for the Prius to 1 million units per year by the summer of 2010. Toyota won’t invest in more production capacity until it can be assured that enough batteries can be built.

Ijichi says that the margins on the Prius are very good, despite a price war with the Honda Insight. The margins on the Prius are so good because production costs for the new model fell 30% from the previous version of the hybrid.

Ijichi said, "In terms of the Toyota lineup, I'd say it's probably in the midlevel of profit."


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What Happens???
By krichmond on 8/6/2009 3:25:23 PM , Rating: 4
To all of these batteries in 10 years when the car starts breaking?? I know this is supposed to be saving energy going green yadda yadda, but what about disposing of all the old batteries?? wont this create a huge disposal problem in years to come?




RE: What Happens???
By therealnickdanger on 8/6/2009 3:31:50 PM , Rating: 5
You worry too much! Stop thinking long-term, we NEED to act NOW to save the environment! Besides, I read on a blog somewhere by this guy who heard a well-respected climatologist that unicorns descend from a rainbow and turn the used batteries into chocolate chip cookies*. No worries.

*gluten free, peanut free


RE: What Happens???
By maveric7911 on 8/6/2009 3:51:37 PM , Rating: 2
^ Thanks for the good laugh today, couldn't have said it better myself.


RE: What Happens???
By FITCamaro on 8/6/2009 4:37:49 PM , Rating: 3
Screw disposal. How about the environmental wastelands that these batteries are probably produced in in China? And the huge amount of energy spent to produce said battery.

Sorry the unicorn melted when it landed to try and clean up the mess.


RE: What Happens???
By Samus on 8/6/2009 6:17:39 PM , Rating: 2
The reason unicorns are extinct is because they all got birth defects from living around toxic lead-infused environments and couldn't reproduce anymore :(


RE: What Happens???
By GaryJohnson on 8/6/2009 7:45:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How about the environmental wastelands that these batteries are probably produced in in China?

Without battery production they would become poverty stricken environmental wastelands.


RE: What Happens???
By TheEinstein on 8/7/2009 8:00:40 AM , Rating: 2
Questions:

1) It takes more than 1 battery per vehicle that is all electric right?

2) If yes on #1 then... Does production per EV mean more severely toxic materials released in production versus 1 lead core battery for a standard auto?

3) How safe are these new batteries in accidents?

4) What sort of issues are there in recycling these batteries?

5) What toxic waste is left-over after recycling?

This goes for any EV quality type batteries....


RE: What Happens???
By VaultDweller on 8/7/2009 8:21:20 AM , Rating: 2
Holy crap that's awesome I want some cookies now did I ever tell you how much I love chocolate chip cookies OMG they are so tasty I wish I was eating one right now and I wish there were unicorns here to give me lots of chocolate chip cookies!

(It hurt me to type that. I don't know why I did it.)


RE: What Happens???
By SiliconJon on 8/6/2009 3:50:05 PM , Rating: 2
It's going to be quite the pile of toxic waste, indeed. Instead of upping production on current battery technology progress towards new battery technologies needs to be pushed, aiming for cleaner, smaller, cheaper, and more powerful cells.


RE: What Happens???
By mindless1 on 8/7/2009 1:33:01 AM , Rating: 2
It's never been either-or, everyone would LOVE for that to happen and research has been continuous (or else we wouldn't even have the current state of battery tech regardless of it feeling stagnant in more recent years).


RE: What Happens???
By TSS on 8/6/2009 4:05:23 PM , Rating: 2
The solution to that problem already exists, it's called 3rd world countries.

sad, but true.


RE: What Happens???
By Motoman on 8/6/2009 4:11:30 PM , Rating: 2
...or when we run out of lithium...


RE: What Happens???
By bobsmith1492 on 8/6/2009 4:24:14 PM , Rating: 2
They're Ni-MH


RE: What Happens???
By Motoman on 8/6/2009 4:35:14 PM , Rating: 2
I wasn't sure...and the site linked to for the info about Pana not being able to make enough requires registration to see...

Isn't Ni-MH less energy dense than Lithium ion though?


RE: What Happens???
By SilthDraeth on 8/6/2009 5:44:25 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, but it is way safer. Unless you haven't been following the lithium ion battery blows up random electronic device news.


RE: What Happens???
By Motoman on 8/6/2009 6:38:41 PM , Rating: 3
People don't kill people. Batteries do.

I guess in this specific application though, the issue is trying to get a truly acceptable driving range for a single charge. The NiMH battery units lose out in that race.

Besides, if there's not at least a reasonable chance your car/phone/laptop might blow up, your life is just too boring.


RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/6/2009 6:40:07 PM , Rating: 5
Actually lithium ion batteries used in cars are substantially different than those found in electronic devices. The ones used on cars are actually closer to and in many cases derived directly from those first found on lithium ion power tools. The ones used in electronic devices are typically cobalt based. They have incredibly high energy density but they can only release it very slowly without blowing up. Low current draw devices like cel phones and laptops are a perfect application for them but a high current draw device like an electric motor will cause them to blow up. Cars and tools will use manganese or iron phosphate cells. These only have about half the energy density of a cobalt based lithium cell. Not much higher than NiMH but the trade off is they can safely handle incredibly high current draw while still weighing about half that of a Nimh battery.


RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/6/2009 6:46:53 PM , Rating: 3
I actually forgot to get to the point, lol. Yes, while current lithium ion tech tends to be more unstable regardless, the type you'd find on a car is substantially more stable than what's in your ipod. The reason they are not widespread in cars has more to do with limited production capability for those types of cells and high cost more than anything else.


RE: What Happens???
By Jeffk464 on 8/7/2009 3:27:11 PM , Rating: 2
Why is that people are ok with sitting on top of 20 gallons of extremely volatile gasoline, but get nervous about hydrogen or batteries. You can't get much more dangerous then gasoline. Safest thing going if that's your primary concern is probably diesel. Toyota is using NiMh because they are cheap and already a mature technology, but they are not better then lipo's.

And as far as what to do with the batteries afterwards I'm pretty sure you can recycle the old batteries and make new batteries out of the material.


RE: What Happens???
By chick0n on 8/6/2009 6:31:30 PM , Rating: 2
it also cost less, its safer, and doesnt suffer the memory problem.


RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/6/2009 7:02:09 PM , Rating: 2
Li-ion is the only type to have absolutely no memory effect. The memory effect is a specific condition to nickel cadmium in which the battery is discharged very slowly at a constant rate to exactly the same level every time. For example a celphone that is idling most of the day and then plugged in the charger at the same time every night. NiMH is still somewhat prone to this but not as bad. In an application like a car this effect is non-existant because the constant change in current draw as the car is accelerated and decelerated automatically eliminates this effect.


RE: What Happens???
By kmmatney on 8/7/2009 1:40:04 AM , Rating: 2
The Prius also never lets you drain the battery below 15%, and never lets you charge it above 85%, to save battery life.


RE: What Happens???
By mindless1 on 8/7/2009 1:50:03 AM , Rating: 2
Short version - there is misconception about what the memory effect is. It is practically never seen anywhere except under exacting conditions in a lab attempting to reproduce it, or early computer controlled circuits on space missions.

What everyone else mistook was just poor charging as undercharge or overcharge damage and weak, or running devices down too low without low voltage cutoff circuitry so weaker cells were subject to reverse charge damage.

So practically speaking, there is never a point in considering the mythical memory effect until a scenario nobody ever proposes as an actual use that would cause it surfaces.

A cell phone charged every night at the same time is not precise enough discharge limit and recharge peak, and yet I don't even know of any using NiCd today. What may be more common these days is simply cells made to inferior standards as it has become the low-budget construction niche battery, and NiMH progressively moving into the same role.

Regardless I'm not arguing for use of either in automobiles, energy density is simply too low for widespread use though personally I would be willing to give up a little density for longer lasting battery packs. IMO, a good car that's taken care of still has some value to the owner when 10 years old, but not so much if a new battery pack must be bought roughly at this point. Such cars make great secondary or emergency cars if the primaries need repair.

On the other hand, hybrid and electric are in their infancy still, the day when an electric seems worth keeping at 10 years old may be more than 10 years away.


RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/7/2009 9:13:41 AM , Rating: 2
NiCD is still used a lot today. Just not in electronics. They are still the most common for stuff like tools because they are reliable and still one of the best at pumping out high currents.


RE: What Happens???
By Jeffk464 on 8/7/2009 8:06:41 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure the only thing that really wears out on brushless motors are the bearings. So with the infrequent bearing changes the motors should outlast the drivers, you cant say the same about gasoline engines.


RE: What Happens???
By TSS on 8/6/2009 4:25:31 PM , Rating: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7707847.stm

after reading that it's become crystal clear where trading in a scarce resource in unstable countries for an even scarcer resources in an even more unstable country that has no intentions of letting others mine their resource yet have no mining experience themselves.

oh by the way, it seems lithium plants produce Sulphur Dioxide, the stuff that causes acid rain. that's like, not bad for the enviroment at all.

this world is going to hell in a handbasket real fast.


RE: What Happens???
By Bateluer on 8/6/2009 4:18:53 PM , Rating: 3
Can't a great portion of these batteries be recycled?


RE: What Happens???
By sieistganzfett on 8/6/2009 6:54:39 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, just like all the other batteries people throw in the trash which will end up a dump. Kind of like all the computers or ships that get recycled ending up at the Chittagong Ship Breaking Yard in Bangladesh.. some bare footed 8 year old is going to recycle that for din din that night.


RE: What Happens???
By Jedi2155 on 8/7/2009 2:32:27 AM , Rating: 2
Except I don't think people will be throwing away their cars in the trash. They typically get junked and salvaged for all usable parts then scrapped.


RE: What Happens???
By HotFoot on 8/7/2009 11:35:47 AM , Rating: 2
I believe I read somewhere a long time ago that cars are the most successfully recycled consumer product. Scrap yards do their job well. Or maybe it was beer bottles at the top but cars were up there somewhere!

Now I'm thirsty.


RE: What Happens???
By sdoorex on 8/6/2009 4:20:45 PM , Rating: 5
What happens is that Toyota pays to recycle all of them. Even after the vehicle can no longer operate and the battery can't hold a charge, there are still valuable materials in the battery packs.

More info:http://www.themotorreport.com.au/6976/toyota-talks...


RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/6/2009 4:48:04 PM , Rating: 5
You do know that conventional lead acid betteries like those found on nearly every single non-hybrid car in existance are far more toxic enviromentally than Ni-MH or Lithium Ion, which are mostly non-toxic. As it is the estimates on recycle rates for lead acid batteries is higher than 90%. I've heard as high as 98%. I see no difference in handling the disposal of hybrid car batteries. Replacing them isn't exactly a DIY job and service centers and manufacturers will most likely send them to be recycled. I see no reason for the recycling rates on these packs to be any less than lead acid. It will likely be even higher.


RE: What Happens???
By kattanna on 8/6/2009 5:04:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It will likely be even higher


agreed. since im seriously doubting most do it yourself car buff types who would normally do everything to their cars, are not the ones currently buying a prius. The people who are buying them are the ones to take it to a shop to have anything done, and they have strict recycling programs in place just like used motor oil.


RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/6/2009 5:15:42 PM , Rating: 2
Even if you did do it yourself the size and weight of those packs isn't exactly the type of thing you just put outside for the garbage truck to pick up.


RE: What Happens???
By SirKronan on 8/10/2009 4:49:02 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I change my oil on my Prius myself ... lol.

It made sense to get one of these because of the 30,000 miles plus we drive every year. We save enough money on fuel over the car this one replaces (which I was able to sell for nearly half the price of the Prius. We have 60k miles on it already, and I've done ZERO maintenance on it other than the usual for any car, and I did a lot of research on the battery issue before buying one. I found a lot of original Prius owners (pre-2004 body) that have over 300k miles on their Priuses (what's the proper plural term, anyways????) still using the original battery. Several parties have tested modern Priuses on the road, and I remember one test in particular where both test Priuses made it to 150k miles and the battery was still performing nearly on par (at 90%) with a brand new battery pack - so they quit testing. They concluded that the battery pack will likely equal or even outlast the longevity of the vehicle. Toyota has taken the time to maximize the lifespan of the battery by closely regulating how it's drained and recharged. They've done it right.

And the reason these new ones are so popular is because they offer even more for the same price, and there really is no true competition for it. Honda's Insight might be $2000 cheaper but it's a LOT more than $2000 worse. Consumer Reports was actually fairly critical of it, and while I don't always agree with what they say about everything, their criticisms of the Insight are right on the money. There's no reason to buy one over the Prius, and that's why it's not doing nearly as well. For a little more money you can get a LOT more car than what the Insight currently has to offer.


RE: What Happens???
By dnd728 on 8/6/2009 5:14:12 PM , Rating: 2
Bingo. And by the time your NiMH battery dies, you would have replaced a pack of Lead-Acid batteries.


RE: What Happens???
By sieistganzfett on 8/6/2009 6:58:10 PM , Rating: 2
by the time the NiMH battery dies, most American owners would have traded in the hybrid for another one. Many Americans were trading in cars every 3 years despite taking 5 year loans back in the roaring 90s and 2000s.


RE: What Happens???
By Motoman on 8/6/2009 7:04:55 PM , Rating: 2
...not sure about that. For example, still using the original batteries in my 2003 Dodge RAM. I don't think the life exepctancy on these NiMH (or Li Ion) packs is anywhere near that...


RE: What Happens???
By andrinoaa on 8/6/2009 7:44:32 PM , Rating: 2
Thats exactly your problem, you don't think. The data on the prius is that extreemly few battery packs "die". So how did you come to your ascertion?


RE: What Happens???
By Motoman on 8/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: What Happens???
By RamboZZo on 8/6/2009 8:11:20 PM , Rating: 2
The point is that even if you only go through one lead battery it is likely still worse if it were to be improperly disposed than one NiMH pack. Lead acid batteries are about the nastiest most toxic batteries.
Last I read (which was here I think) is that the average Prius is getting 10 years or more which was much higher than originally anticipated.


RE: What Happens???
By mindless1 on 8/7/2009 2:03:43 AM , Rating: 2
Are you certain this is true? This lead was already in the ground, and when disposed of the lead is mostly contained within a plastic container that will take how many years to disintegrate?

Sometimes I wonder if environmental activists ignore these things, that taking all the lead out of the ground, recycling over 90%, and having the remainder in sealed plastic containers somewhere might not be the reason for environmental lead increases at all.

It could be something much sillier like ceasing to use lead paint so all these lead painted items got thrown into landfills before their viable lifespan was finished.

I do however feel that it is an irrelevant distinction as people aren't typically going to be able to get away with setting their car battery out at the curb, it is a large enough and obvious enough recognized object that it will be recycled, and probably enough financial incentive that if one were abandoned somewhere, a scavenger who happened upon it would be glad to haul it in for profit in the rare case that the owner didn't want any money for it.


RE: What Happens???
By tmouse on 8/7/2009 8:18:06 AM , Rating: 3
The problem is many "recycled" batteries end up in poor areas where they are melted down and the lead ends up in the water or air. Sure lead comes from the ground but it is often in forms that are not as soluble or bioreactive. As for the plastic, most plastics degrade under UV exposure and you do not have to dissolve the entire case; just a crack will do. I'll agree in most areas batteries are probably not a significant source but they are in areas near recycling plants.


RE: What Happens???
By mindless1 on 8/7/2009 1:56:31 AM , Rating: 2
I would have to disagree totally. All available data suggests that every single battery pack will die if it is not replaced before that happens or the car scrapped before then.

Since they are not that old yet, what has happened thus far doesn't tell us much of anything. Most things that eventually fail don't early on.

How do we know for sure? This isn't alien technology we know nothing about. The cells degrade, and degrade, and degrade until a point they will have to be called dead. No magic pixie dust has been added to stop this inevitable process.

It would be like saying the data on grade school children from 1930 is that extremely few die, when we do know that eventually they have or will soon. If we are only talking about some magical number of years, do we accept that other very expensive parts on a car will die in the same # of years if properly maintained? Generally no, such cars are avoided when possible.


RE: What Happens???
By Alexstarfire on 8/9/2009 6:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
Except people keep forgetting that the Prius doesn't actually NEED a functional hybrid battery to work. The Prius has 2 batteries, one for the main electric engine and one for the small electric engine. Apart from the main electric engine which is used to propel the car there is very little difference in what it does from a normal car. The smaller electric engine is used to start the gas engine from a regular car battery.

Sure, without the hybrid battery you probably won't get the best of mileage out of the car, but it should still function provided a current can pass through the battery, regardless if it can actually store the charge. Should the car battery die the car will cease to function. You can replace the car battery without being forced to replace the hybrid battery, even if it won't hold a charge.

Most of the hybrid batteries in the Prius that have been replaced so far are because of manufacturing defects and/or not being installed exactly right.


RE: What Happens???
By mindless1 on 8/7/2009 1:30:11 AM , Rating: 2
Not to worry! The US government will implement a massive buyback and destruction program which is proven to make it all magically vanish.


RE: What Happens???
By Jedi2155 on 8/7/2009 2:38:07 AM , Rating: 2
The batteries are recycled:

From Bill Kwong of Toyota Communications
quote:
To ensure that hybrid batteries are returned to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information. Salvage companies that want to get a battery recycled can present it to any Toyota dealer and receive a $150 core reward. Toyota has been recycling NiMH batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, are recycled or processed for disposal. At the recycler, the battery modules are separated from the wire harness, controller and metal shell (all common materials that are recycled).

Using a first generation Prius battery as an example: * After the above mentioned parts are removed, there are 89 pounds of batteries.
* The plates are removed from the cases leaving 11 pounds of plastic cases and 78 pounds of plates/chemicals/and absorbent materials.
* The plastic cases (Polypropylene) are recycled similar to any other consumer plastic.
* Of the remaining 78 pounds, we extract 32 pounds of nickel that is sold into the steel industry as an alloy to make stainless steel, four pounds of cobalt that is used in a variety of industries -- other batteries and super alloys, and five pounds of common alloy steel (terminals and intercell connectors).
* The remaining materials and chemicals are processed for recycling or disposed in an environmentally friendly fashion following local, state, and federal regulations.


http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94...


RE: What Happens???
By Ammohunt on 8/7/2009 2:43:44 PM , Rating: 2
I converted my Prius to use alkaline batteries. Just sucks chaing out 10,000 AA's a day but its worth it to keep lead away from the Gaia.


RE: What Happens???
By Jedi2155 on 8/7/2009 5:49:56 PM , Rating: 2
There's no lead in the Prius traction battery pack.


RE: What Happens???
By toyotabedzrock on 8/7/2009 11:08:03 PM , Rating: 2
No because as always we will ship it all to China.

They should not bother increasing production of NiMH batteries when in a few years Li-ion will be the norm. Unless some other battery tech comes along.


By Nfarce on 8/6/2009 3:54:09 PM , Rating: 5
<phphphphphttttt> <sniff> <ahhhhhhhhhhh>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!




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