backtop

Print E-mail del.icio.us 97 comment(s) - last by Blight AC.. on Jan 4 at 9:19 AM

Toyota A-BAT Concept  (Source: Toyota)
Toyota gets back to its compact roots with new A-BAT pickup concept

Tech enthusiasts know that the month of January is usually reserved for the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) and Macworld Expo. All of the latest tech gadgets and computing products are shown at both shows -- the omnipresent iPhone made its initial bow at this year's Macworld.

January, however, is also known for the biggest auto show in the world: the North American International Auto Show (aka the Detroit Auto Show). All of the world's major manufacturers debut new production automobiles as well as concepts during the Detroit Auto Show. Toyota is giving gear heads a sneak peak at one of its show attendees in the form of the A-BAT concept vehicle.

The Toyota A-BAT was developed by Toyota's Advanced Product Strategy group and Calty Design Research. In keeping with Toyota's efforts to make every one of its vehicles hybrid-equipped by the year 2020, the A-BAT naturally incorporates the Hybrid Synergy Drive with a naturally aspirated four-cylinder engine.

The A-BAT is a unibody-based pickup a la the Honda Ridgeline -- Toyota's two production pickups, the Tundra and Tacoma, are body-on-frame vehicles. The vehicle rides on a 112.2-inch wheelbase which could indicate that the Highlander donated its platform for the A-BAT. The short hood and cab-forward nature of the vehicle also seem to indicate a transverse engine layout which further solidifies the FWD-based assumption.

"Driving from beyond the suburbs to the city is a way of life for many people," said Kevin Hunter, president, Calty Design Research "We've taken Toyota's truck heritage to a different level by envisioning a vehicle capable of maneuvering the suburbs as well as dirt roads. This compact truck is as comfortable for long commutes as it is for road trips. It can accommodate outdoor toys and home improvement supplies. Plus, customers benefit from the hybrid powertrain's low emissions and fuel economy."

Despite the unibody construction and compact dimensions -- the A-BAT is over two feet shorter than an extended cab Tacoma -- the vehicle can still accommodate the requisite 4' x 8' plywood sheet.

Toyota is looking for ways to increase the efficiency of its fleet and reduce emissions. The company came under fire when it released the massive 5.7 liter V8-packin' Tundra earlier this year, so a production version of the A-BAT would make a nice addition to the Toyota portfolio.

A unibody-based pickup with a hybrid powertrain would have the advantage of improving Toyota's CAFE average in the face of stricter government legislation and appeasing the truck community that has seen the U.S. compact truck market all but disappear -- only the AARP qualifying Ford Ranger still ranks as a "true" compact while the Tacoma, Colorado/Canyon, Ridgeline, Frontier, Dakota and Sport Trac all dance in mid-size territory.

Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled
What ever happened to...
By Jedi2155 on 12/28/2007 12:30:44 AM , Rating: 5
Utility over form...?

It seems like every year the pickup bed gets smaller and more room on the cabin...




RE: What ever happened to...
By Imaginer on 12/28/2007 12:52:24 AM , Rating: 5
Exactly. Looks like that is a 4 foot bed right there. Not my kind of truck...

Might as well get a wagon hybrid or a hatchback if one wants such a car. If it is suppose to be a truck, then it had better damn well be a truck.


RE: What ever happened to...
By PAPutzback on 12/28/2007 9:33:20 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think you'd want a yard of mulch stinking up the cabin of your explorer or hatchback. For hauling usage I'd take this truck over my Jeep Cherokee.

But they can't claim that back seat area as seating just like they should never have with the cherokee. Kids can't even sit back their in comfort without pressing their knees against the front seat. They should of made this a 3 person bench seat up front and gave the bed another two feet.


RE: What ever happened to...
By mindless1 on 12/28/2007 11:28:33 PM , Rating: 2
I used to haul mulch every year when I had an Explorer, not a big deal you just throw down a tarp and buy it in bags instead of loose. There was no odor problem once the mulch was removed and it was left to air out a few minutes. Besides, it's not like mulch is manure, it just smells woodsy unless it's something really old and waterlogged that sat around and rotted (which should be avoided for the more obvious reason that it's barely mulch anymore).


RE: What ever happened to...
By Mitch101 on 12/28/2007 10:51:21 AM , Rating: 3
Who knew my wife's mini-van would go to the local hardware store for sheetrock and plywood because I cant use the truck.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Alexstarfire on 12/28/2007 2:22:06 PM , Rating: 2
I may think that SUVs and pickups are useless for most people, but I certainly agree on that. If you're making a pickup, make it a God d@mn pickup. These hybrid POS pickups are useless to EVERYONE. What the heck are you gonna put in a 4 foot bed that you couldn't put in any other car, save mulch and stuff like dirt and sand. You can always get those in bags though.

These hybrid pickup SUV things are just stupid and I'm not sure how they "took off" so to speak.


RE: What ever happened to...
By 0roo0roo on 12/30/2007 12:25:32 AM , Rating: 2
i don't think so, unless you tow big loads most trucks/suvs are designed poorly for what people actually use them for.

theres probably a pass through door into the cabin for longer objects. so carrying mattresses and other things should probably be possible.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Gravemind123 on 12/28/2007 12:54:21 AM , Rating: 2
They need to take out the back seats, or make both rows smaller, get rid of that overhang thing behind the cabin and devote the space to the bed. Then they might have a better truck going.


RE: What ever happened to...
By retrospooty on 12/28/2007 11:13:13 AM , Rating: 2
They have that already. The mid size is called tocoma, and the full size is tundra. This is a different model that has a back seat.


RE: What ever happened to...
By FITCamaro on 12/28/2007 1:08:38 AM , Rating: 1
Too bad its totally useless as a pickup. That thing won't be able to tow shit. It'll basically be a toy so environmentalists who want to look macho can do so. Pickups are meant to work. Not save the environment.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/28/2007 1:16:33 AM , Rating: 5
LOL. Come to NC where Tacomas and F-150s are the new Camrys and Accords :D

The only pickups around here doing work are ones with a company name on the side or diesel one-ton trucks.

Pickups are fast becoming luxury bloat commuter vehicles; hence the leather, moonroofs, nav systems, heated seats, flip-down LCD DVD systems for little junior, etc.

As for saving the environment, what's wrong with a compact truck with a bed that gets good gas mileage? You talk like it's a BAD thing? Manufacturers aren't going to get to 35MPG CAFE by sprinkling fairy dust on their trucks.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Ringold on 12/28/2007 3:59:28 AM , Rating: 2
The first three lines read like something of an agreement..

quote:
what's wrong with a compact truck with a bed that gets good gas mileage?


A bed? That has a bed? I see a trunk with the lid missing more then I see a bed, unfortunately.

A compact truck was an S-10; room for 2 - 3, and a real bed. Small. Got the job done. Questionable reliability, but thats different.

I find it hard to disagree with FIT here.. This.. is a Camry, or RAV4 with a big trunk. Smaller SUV's existed to make men feel more macho than they would in a minivan, this is merely an extension of that trend. Vegetarian environmentalists can now think they're helping the environment (and hybrids have always been somewhat dubious anyway in this regard with the energy they require to build), while simultaneously being able to hang out with their blue-collar or Republican friends and say "See? I'm not a wimp!"

I'd just rather get a Tacoma, F150, Silverado, etc, but.. whatever floats peoples boat I suppose..


RE: What ever happened to...
By Ringold on 12/28/2007 4:22:15 AM , Rating: 2
A little Google reveals a bed length for the A-BAT of 48 inches.

Colorado: 60
F-150: 66 - 90
Ranger: 60 - 72
S-10: 72 - 90

2/3 to about 1/2 the size of an S-10s bed.

It's claim to fame, apparently, is that it can still hold a piece of plywood. Congratulations, Toyota. They also point out more bulky things can be taken along, if you manipulate the vehicle, but you can carry an amazing amount of crap in most car's if you don't car what and how much of it sticks out the windows, etc.. Especially convertibles..


RE: What ever happened to...
By Blight AC on 12/28/2007 8:45:48 AM , Rating: 2
Hrmm.. yeah I need a 6' bed so I can haul my Quad around. It's pretty much the only reason I need a pick-up bed (there are other things I would use it for, but that's my only real NEED for it). But if I were to get a truck it'd be my primary vehicle so 30+mpg and a good backseat for the family would also be needed. This looks like it might be close.. but the bed is useless if I can't fit the quad.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Spuke on 12/28/2007 9:47:04 AM , Rating: 2
Some of the smaller sport quads might fit but a utility quad barely fits in a 6' foot bed.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Blight AC on 1/4/2008 9:19:48 AM , Rating: 2
It's a Yamaha Raptor 660, fits fine in a Dodge Dakota bed.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/28/2007 10:00:09 AM , Rating: 2
Toyota:
quote:
The A-BAT features a four-foot bed, but has more flexibility than the standard pickup truck. A translucent roof panel slides open to allow for tall cargo in the cab. When the pass-through midgate is folded down into the cab the bed lengthens an additional two feet. An open tailgate provides an additional two-foot of bed length. The A-BAT offers customers the versatility of hauling a standard 4x8 sheet of plywood one day, then taking a family on a camping trip to the lake the next.


So it has a mid-gate like the Chevrolet Avalanche and a flip-down tailgate guard that you can get with just about any pickup truck these days from the factory.

Doesn't seem so unreasonable. You get 6-feet of "enclosed" bed space with the midgate down and 8-feet with the tailgate down and a flip down tailgate guard.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Ringold on 12/28/2007 4:30:21 PM , Rating: 2
Flip down the tail gate in any other truck, and you have up to 9.5ft or more of bed space.

My point is, it's smaller than almost any other so-called "truck" I've ever seen.

Google is strangely resisting my attempts to verify this, but just eyeballing pictures it looks like an El Camino may have had more bed space...


RE: What ever happened to...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/28/2007 5:45:37 PM , Rating: 2
Who says that everyone needs an 8-foot bed?

This is a compact truck. If you want a mid-size truck, get a mid-size truck. If you want a full-size truck, get a full-size truck.

What's wrong with choice? Sure, the bed is small, but with the mid-gate down, it can haul a decent bit of cargo.

I really don't see what the whole fuss is about.


RE: What ever happened to...
By mindless1 on 12/28/2007 11:44:07 PM , Rating: 2
Certainly everyone doesn't, but it's a lot easier to use if it had one foot more space than needed, than one foot less space than needed.

8' is a pretty good length, given things like 8' lumber. Putting the gate down is not always a reasonable option.

The fuss is about it being a pickup truck. People don't buy a pickup truck if there's no need to haul stuff. Well maybe some wacko in the hills of (insert state here) would, but the rest of the same world would choose something else if cargo capability were not a primary factor.

Granted, a green battery powered truck is going to have lesser versatility due to unibody and lower torque and/or range (gotta give up something or the batteries get larger).


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/29/2007 12:12:33 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Granted, a green battery powered truck is going to have lesser versatility due to unibody and lower torque and/or range (gotta give up something or the batteries get larger).


The primary power for this hybrid truck is not the battery pack. It will be the gas or diesel internal combustion engine. Battery pack will be there for the event of ICE inefficiency situations (ex: partial load) or for peak high loads.

Prius has a 28 hp battery pack to cover peak power demand and still get away with 76 hp gas engine.

Camry hybrid has a 40 hp battery pack with a 4 cylinder gas engine to give peak power of a 3.0L V6.

If this A-BAT hybrid truck has 50 hp battery pack with a very high torque electric motor, it will pull/haul loads of stuffs. Remember, we are talking only about peak power demand (floor the accelerator) beyond the ICE power. Ex: ICE power peaks at 100hp and hauling stuffs to accelerate need 140hp.

Under normal load or under maximum ICE power, majority of the power will come from the ICE through the generator. A lot of anti-hybrid crowd likes to point out the conversion loss from gas to electric and imagine ways to eliminate it.

To understand why it is non-sense, you need a paradigm shift. Converting gas engine power to electricity enables the release of high torque at 0 RPM in Hybrid Synergy Drive. This is the fundamental idea of the e-CVT.

Gear based transmission need to change gears to increase torque/thrust at the wheel. Converting high hp gas engine to high torque electric power also accomplishes the same goal as shifting gears (without shifting gears).

Because gas and electric are working together, you get a powertrain that is comparable that of a Diesel (high lowend torque and excellent partial power). The extra premium feature advantage that hybrid has over Diesel is the regenerative braking and completely shutting down the ICE when not needed.

If you read and understood everything that I just said, you will also understand why hybrid is the fastest growing market. People are "getting" it.


RE: What ever happened to...
By mindless1 on 12/30/2007 5:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
The only reason you can say it's the fastest growing is because the others were already mature markets.

0 MPH torque is not especially important in regular uses. Remember, that's why conventional engines have gears. The thing you seem to be overlooking is that it is not just about momentary peak power, it is about real use hauling loads (else I would argue, the user should drive a car instead of a truck), it means continual higher load which goes against the touted efficiency of the hybrid. Granted, conventionally fueled vehicles aren't as efficient as their paper specs might imply in such a scenario either.

100/140HP is not much at all for trucks, and somewhat inapplicable within the context of HP @ torque. The idea of flooring it is not necessarily applicable with trucks where one is looking for at least moderate torque at a lower engine RPM - not flooring it.

The truck battery would have to often work for this "partial load" if it's being used as a truck instead of a passenger car with a bed in back. While the torque is quite important, this is a quite underpowered vehicle that is being adopted more by green-heads than those with serious uses. For more serious (demanding I should write) uses, it could be accomplished with electric engines but the goal is shifted from being as energy conservative as possible to being more fit as a cargo hauling vehicle.

People who buy these and don't think so much about hauling cargo, really don't /get/ it, they could have bought an enclosed vehicle such as a minivan or station wagon for lighter duty.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 8:22:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only reason you can say it's the fastest growing is because the others were already mature markets.

Although Prius has its own unique market due to the lack of competition, there other hybrids that have non-hybrid model choices availble. How do you explain the Camry hybrid? How can you say Camry market is not mature?

quote:
The thing you seem to be overlooking is that it is not just about momentary peak power, it is about real use hauling loads ... it means continual higher load which goes against the touted efficiency of the hybrid.

I am not sure if I understand your statement. The highest load is when you need to get the vehicle moving. Once it is moving, maintaining at that speed requires very little power. For example for my Prius, it takes about 15 HP to maintain 60 MPH. To pass cars on the highway at a moderate rate, I only use about 40 HP (@2,500 RPM). So why did Toyota included 110 peak hp hybrid powertrain with the 76 HP gas engine? To climb hills with the allowed 800lbs load.

An example of using peak power is when I moved home with my Prius fully loaded and floored it on an uphill highway merge. From 40 mph to 65 mph, it took 8 seconds. Not bad for 2,900 lbs +loads car with a 76hp gas engine plus HV battery pack. The performance should be in the ball park of a 2.0 liter gas-only car.
See the video at 42min:55sec: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3823585124...

For me 90% of the time, I only use 15-20hp. Most non-hybrid owners do not know how much power they actually use and carry the 200-300HP+ engine (dead weight) around. Truck usage may be different and Toyota can tune it according to their test data.

100/140HP was an arbitrary number used as an example. If I have to guess, Toyota may use Camry's 2.4L 4-cylnider HSD (with 3.0L V6 power) and tune it for trucks. It may mean it will have MG2 with more torque and larger HV battery pack. Maybe it will have MG3 to power the rear wheels like in Highlander Hybrid 4x4. I don't know since I am not a Toyota engineer and I don't have the test data.

quote:
The truck battery would have to often work for this "partial load" if it's being used as a truck instead of a passenger car with a bed in back

Not necessarily, the power can come from the ICE through generator. It all depends on how Toyota tunes it. They may increase the battery size to extend the battery life or just use more ICE power and trade the overall efficiency.

HSD use Atkinson cycle ICE that is very efficient for partial power. For example, Prius' 76HP engine has higher efficiency than Otto cycle engine while making 15 HP (20% load).

quote:
While the torque is quite important, this is a quite underpowered vehicle that is being adopted more by green-heads than those with serious uses

You need to get your head out of a rock. Prius overpower 2.0L and 2.4L gas-only cars at highway passing.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/i...
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/i...
Every other Toyota hybrids are faster than comparable non-hybrid versions.

quote:
For more serious (demanding I should write) uses, it could be accomplished with electric engines but the goal is shifted from being as energy conservative as possible to being more fit as a cargo hauling vehicle.

There is no need to compromise/shift as both (fuel efficiency and cargo hauling) can be accomplished by HSD. That's the power of the synergy when gas and electric work together. As a side effect, HSD comes with lower emission too.

It does not sound like this A-BAT is for serious work truckers but for those bought a truck just for those rare just-in-case people. I am sure Toyota engineers will tune it accordingly to the market they are after.


RE: What ever happened to...
By jconan on 1/1/2008 12:10:48 AM , Rating: 2
I sure don't follow your argument on torque. hp <> torque. A 180hp vehicle with 133lb-ft torque still doesn't beat a 175hp vehicle with 180lb-ft torque.


By usbseawolf2000 on 1/1/2008 1:26:40 PM , Rating: 2
My argument is how much power we actually use in our daily life vs. the peak hp our engine can make.

The key is in the transmission. e-CVT in Prius can maintain peak HP constantly since it never needs to shift. Shifting is bad for HP since HP is a function of RPM and torque. The moment you upshift, the RPM drops along with the HP. The engine has to rev it's way up and as soon as it reaches the peak power, there goes another upshift. That's just stupid. In HSD, RPM stays constant therefore, you get more usable power out of a smaller gas engine. Think of a flat curve vs. a wave curve.

Another contributing factor in Prius 1.5L vs. 2.0L (or 2.4L) non-hybrid (Allion or Camry) is the aerodynamic. On the highway, it takes less energy for Prius to accelerate because it cuts through air like a knife (a bit of exaggerating but you get the point).


RE: What ever happened to...
By DragonMaster0 on 12/30/2007 5:00:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
People don't buy a pickup truck if there's no need to haul stuff.
I guess a lot more people than you think actually do...


RE: What ever happened to...
By FredEx on 12/29/2007 1:31:07 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly. I'd love something like this. I do haul sheet goods once in a great while, but not enough to require I have a long bed behind me all the time. For me the size and weight of a full size truck is a waste. Getting good mileage when I'm not hauling anything would be great.


RE: What ever happened to...
By xti on 1/2/2008 5:37:23 PM , Rating: 2
there really is no fuss, everyone just thinks that everything that hits the market has to cater to their needs and there are no variation in needs other than theirs.


RE: What ever happened to...
By cleco on 12/28/2007 9:33:25 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
LOL. Come to NC where Tacomas and F-150s are the new Camrys and Accords :D


Its quite pathetic really. I think thats the norm everywhere now. I see more full size picks and SUV's running around than I do any size sedan combined.

GG 18MPG trucks and suvs!


RE: What ever happened to...
By FITCamaro on 12/28/2007 10:25:34 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not saying you aren't right. I just think its dumb. Hence my comment.

Trust me. I live in SC. I'm well aware of plenty of people buy trucks and use them as a sedan. We've got a guy at work who is about my age and is married, no kids. Drives an F250.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Bloodlust on 12/28/2007 11:18:05 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed. The best selling vehicle for the last dozen or more years has always been the F-150. Americans love their trucks and SUVs.

I like the look of the concept truck. I own a 2006 Ridgeline RLT loaded with a roof rack and nerf bars. I can see a lot of resemblences in Toyota's concept and the Ridgeline. The uni-body design is definately superior to anything else as far as ride and comfort. I test drove many trucks and none were as smooth and comfortable as the Ridgeline. I would expect Toyota's new truck will be the same or better.

Having a trunk inside the bed has been invaluable. It's bigger than most cars trunks I have seen lately. And it has a drain so you could fill it with iced cold beer! :) The only thing that could be better would be the mileage. Even with a V-6, although a potent one, I can only get 18-20 combined MPG. Having something like the hybrid drive in this concept would be icing on the cake.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Spuke on 12/28/2007 5:39:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Agreed. The best selling vehicle for the last dozen or more years has always been the F-150.
The Ford F-series have been the number one selling vehicle for about 24 years and the number one selling truck for about 29 years.


RE: What ever happened to...
By themadmilkman on 12/28/2007 1:22:04 AM , Rating: 5
If you really wanted to 'tow shit,' as you put it, you would be begging for an electric drive train, with the drive train pulling electricity from battery packs charged by a diesel engine running at peak efficiency. You know, like a locomotive does.

Seriously. Think before you post. Done right, a hybrid could in fact tow significantly more than an equivalent diesel engine.


RE: What ever happened to...
By StevoLincolnite on 12/28/2007 4:18:24 AM , Rating: 2
I wouldn't tow anything with it, I would like to know if I can get it airborne easier on the sand dunes. (I live in outback Australia).


RE: What ever happened to...
By P4blo on 12/28/2007 8:14:06 AM , Rating: 2
Bang on, power curve for an electric motor generally gives you maximum torque at 0 revs. Practically the opposite to petrol engines. It doesn't get much better for pulling away from the lights with a heavy load. Stalling, what's that?

Someone needs to start selling the serious advantages of electric motors to the petrol knuckle-heads out there. In the future it might make for a faster uptake and some manufacturers developing sporty electric models sooner.

With a serious electric vehicle you could smoke the tyres off the rims without so much as reving the engine or dumping the clutch :-) Just stand on the power. It would be unnervingly quiet too. Maybe that's a bad thing to some though ;P

Not quite the same thing but back in the day my 1/10th scale competition electric buggy would murder anything petrol (as long as the race was just 5 mins!)


RE: What ever happened to...
By ice456789 on 12/28/2007 9:03:27 AM , Rating: 2
Ok, so an electric motor has maximum torque at 0 revs. The problem as I understand it is that the electric motors that power today's hybrid and electric cars are not nearly as powerful as a diesel engine. It doesn't matter when they get most of their power if even at full power they aren't strong enough to tow the load. I guess we'll have to wait for further advancements in batteries before electric or hybrid engines find their way to 'working' automobiles.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Spuke on 12/28/2007 9:55:14 AM , Rating: 2
You guys are talking about a drivetrain combo that doesn't exist in cars yet. We're talking about right now or in the near future. None of the car makers are even talking about making a diesel electric car or truck. But gas electrics are definitely being talked about right now and in the near future. As far as I'm concerned, diesel electric is just wishful thinking.


RE: What ever happened to...
By encia on 12/29/2007 6:06:09 AM , Rating: 2
Prius's electric drive motor delivers 400 Nm of torque from zero RPM to 1200 RPM (about 33Km/h).

The torque drops beyond 33Km/h. Prius effectively has 1 gear.

Reference.
http://homepage.mac.com/inachan/prius/planet_e.htm...
THS/THSII(HSD) simulation.


RE: What ever happened to...
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 12/28/2007 11:01:48 AM , Rating: 2
Honda tried that with the Accord hybrid, and no one bought it. They went for performance with their configuration, as you suggest. The problem is that the hybrid system adds so much weight, that there is no benefit for sporty handling. Speaking as a hybrid sedan owner, I can tell you they handle like pigs in high heels.

Now, for a truck this would be a good "performance" package.


RE: What ever happened to...
By P4blo on 12/28/2007 12:19:00 PM , Rating: 2
I guess I'm thinking more in the future than now and I hear what you say about Hybrids. I think there's a market for them (even many years down the line) but it might be for the heavier, more long distance movers. I'm really just commenting on how damn cool an electric motor is compared to petrol or diesel. We just have to give it a serious juice supply.

I look forward to the day they start doing something mass market with fuel cells. Once they're finally in production I'm sure the technological improvements will come thick and fast.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 10:26:02 PM , Rating: 1
Wrong. Accord hybrid only added 200-300 lbs. The reasons it failed are the following:
- Same emission standard as the gas-only version
- Cost more than $3k
- Electric assist was anemic (25 electric hp + 240 gas hp)
- Performance gains were beyond the diminishing return
- Fuel economy gains were only about 25%

Let's take a look at 2-mode hybrid(another lengthy discussion) because it seems to be following the Accord Hybrid route but worse. 2-mode hybrids also improve 25-30% fuel economy. There were virtually no performance gains. It does not lower emission, in fact it increases the emission in Yukon hybrid due to the 6.0L ICE they used instead of 5.3L. Ironically, it won the "Green Car of the Year" award. You gotta wonder who were giving out these awards and how they defined "green".


RE: What ever happened to...
By ethies on 12/28/2007 12:59:24 PM , Rating: 2
One problem I see is that 200+ hp electric motors can weigh 2000+ lb. Add in battery weight, and its going to struggle to move itself. Ultimately diesel has about 5-6 times the energy density of our best batteries. Until we get low weight electric motors, and huge advances in battery technology diesel will be king. Amd that's before you address cost!


RE: What ever happened to...
By Andrwken on 12/30/2007 4:59:49 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you for pointing out what most people here don't understand. Power to weight ratio of electric motors due to motor itself and the batteries is obscene with current technology. I believe we are quite a few years away from using electric, and even hybrid electric like locomotives use in road worthy haulers (I mean large pickups and heavy trucks). But hey, this little Toyota is another great excuse to buy something with an open back to haul groceries with. With a box that size, you could save us all some fuel and get a car. I think I can fold down the back seats in my Saab and get that 4 feet or better (or get a small trailer that my car or truck can tow and have even more space). Another useless vehicle from the green marketing machine that is Toyota.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 10:36:11 PM , Rating: 2
RE: What ever happened to...
By Andrwken on 12/30/2007 10:55:49 PM , Rating: 2
9-3 ss sedan. I use my Yukon for that kind of work. But I do get 35 mpg with the saab, not bad for buying it 3 years old for 12 grand. The prius probably won't work for me as most smaller mid size cars are too small in the back seat for me. When you have one child in a full blown child seat and two that have to sit in booster seats, most small mid size cars don't have enough room across the back seat to accomodate those 3 seats and get at the seatbelts.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 11:17:48 PM , Rating: 2
Prius has more leg room than most mid-size sedans. Even more than Camry. I don't have any kid yet but Dr.Fusco on Priuschat is fine with 3 kids and two dogs, I believe. You need to see Prius in person to see it's interior space.

There is a video of Prius fitted with 9 people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEQ90rdLKU


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 11:34:47 PM , Rating: 2
You actually exceed the old EPA highway 34 MPG. Not bad for a compact sedan. I can also exceed Prius' old EPA 55 combined MPG as well.

I can double your MPG on the highway: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1484126312... or in the traffic congestion: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5629875641... or hauling stuffs relocating home: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3823585124...

Now that we are in the winter, I am averaging 54 MPG this tank. Most Prius owners do not get this good... neither will the other 9-3 owners get 35 MPG.


RE: What ever happened to...
By PAPutzback on 12/28/2007 9:36:10 AM , Rating: 1
And trains way several tons and would never see inclines and declines like a truck pulling a trailer. A straight Diesel is the way to go. Atleast until battery tech progresses.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 10:38:19 PM , Rating: 2
Subways and bullet trains all use electric motors (circular or linear).

Face it! There are pros and cons for electric motors and internal combustion engines. The trick is to use both of their advantages in a synergistic way. That's what Hybrid Synergy Drive is all about! Covering each other's a$$ and working together as a team.

There were also doubt about scalability of HSD. We are just seeing trucks utilizing HSD. What's next? Mini-van HSD?

We have HSD scaled from 1.5L / 4-cyl (Prius) to 5.0L / 8-cyln (LS600HL) weighting from 2,900 lbs (Prius) to 5,220 lbs (LS600HL). HSD does not stop there... fuel cells (FCHV) also used hybrid technology (fuel cells + battery).


RE: What ever happened to...
By Andrwken on 12/30/2007 5:05:03 PM , Rating: 2
Face it? The weight of most subway trains and bullet trains is probably too heavy to even be allowed on most road ways. Until the weight comes down, these hybrids are not going to give great benefits, just marginal. You people around here complain about suv's that weigh 5000 lbs, but you would gladly let some manufacturer drive up the weight even further if they put a hybrid sticker on the side.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 8:35:00 PM , Rating: 2
When you compare Camry Hybrid vs. the V6, the hybrid only add about 170 lbs (about a passenger weight). That's 4.7% of the total weight. Yet, much better MPG and lower emission outweight (pun intended) it.

Have you ever compare the weight and size of Corolla / Prius / Camry? Can you detect any extra weight on the Prius?

Did you know that Prius' HV battery pack weights 99 lbs? Prius gas tank carry less fuel (11.9 gal) that it saved about 50 lbs?


RE: What ever happened to...
By FredEx on 12/29/2007 1:44:34 AM , Rating: 2
Trains pull grades that a semi will never see.


RE: What ever happened to...
By FITCamaro on 12/28/2007 10:32:28 AM , Rating: 2
I am fully aware of the benefits of an electric motor. But as others have said, the electric motor that will likely be in this thing will a) not be nearly as powerful as a diesel engine and b) the battery wouldn't last long enough to get you anywhere with that kind of load on it if it could pull it. And a small diesel engine isn't going to be able to keep up with the charging demand either.

This thing is a car in truck form. Sure you'll be able to put some lumber in the "bed" (thats joke just looking at it) or pull a jet ski or bass boat. But it's likely to be driven by women and never even see even medium duty use. Because it won't be built for it. It will be as I said. A "truck" built for those who want to look macho but still claim that they're saving the environment.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 3:49:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But as others have said, the electric motor that will likely be in this thing will a) not be nearly as powerful as a diesel engine and b) the battery wouldn't last long enough to get you anywhere with that kind of load on it if it could pull it.


a) Prius has an electric motor that makes 295 lbs-ft of torque. It matches the diesel engine torque.

b) The main power will come from the ICE (gas or diesel) through generator and the HV battery pack is there to assist or buffer those peak high loads. On top of that, Toyota can also add a second stage to muliply torque mechanically. Similar dual stage HSD has been done on the Lexus LS600HL.
See toward the bottom: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/powert...

Please spare us the 2,000 lbs electric motor. Prius' 295 lbs-ft electric motor, generator and PSD fit in about the size and weight of a regular automatic transmission.

Prius HSD powertrain (Translation: gas engine + generator + electric motor + e-CVT): http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/i...

GM 2-Mode Transmission (No engine, just two electric motors): http://www.evworld.com/images/dualmode_transmissio...


RE: What ever happened to...
By Spuke on 12/28/2007 5:24:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
a) Prius has an electric motor that makes 295 lbs-ft of torque. It matches the diesel engine torque.
Which diesel engine torque does it match?


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 9:48:33 PM , Rating: 2
2.8 liter Jeep Liberty Diesel engine comes to mind. Although that Diesel engine need to be at around 1800 RPM to get 295 lbs-ft, Prius' electric motor make that kind of torque at 0 RPM.

Note that Diesel engine is a lot heavier than the electric motor.


RE: What ever happened to...
By mindless1 on 12/28/2007 11:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
What it can do, versus what it can do reliably over the course of years are two different things.

Further we cannot compare size or weight of the engine alone, without considering the fuel. Further, in a truck the size and weight are less important, remembering it's whole point was "maybe" to haul big or heavy things, that the % of space used is a lower % of total space available given any sane design.

Then there's the other factor, that if we were just making a modern comparison of a high tech electric engine versus diesel, we'd redesign the diesel too, not just use some throwback from earlier eras that was built more to drop into existing designs and reusing existing tech to keep costs down. I'm not saying it means the diesel is superior, only that a direct comparison, fairly done, would have more factors involved.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/29/2007 12:22:19 AM , Rating: 2
Electric motors and generators are very reliable.

Modern Diesels need very expensive after-treatment filters to be as clean as dirtest gas engines. Their current challenge is to cover 10 years 150k miles warranty to sell in CARB states. Diesel engine may last a long time but the emission filter will not.

Of course Prius has 10 years 150k miles hybrid related component warranty and qualifies for AT-PZEV in CARB states.


RE: What ever happened to...
By mindless1 on 12/30/2007 4:43:07 PM , Rating: 2
Electric motors and generators CAN be very reliable, but that doesn't make them inherantly so. Even something as simple as a spring can be very reliable, or a gasket, but knowing that did little good when I had to pay $200 to get a door handle fixed because a 20 cent part broke.

You then wrote about pollution. Ok, but that was not the subtopic it was reliability. If we only want to talk about what is cleanest, we have to overhaul everything mankind does - and maybe we should, but we can hardly single out one thing and ignore the rest when we also know that producing the energy for these electric vehicles has historically, not been particularly clean either.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 8:45:53 PM , Rating: 2
If you want to look as the whole car then here:
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/autos/0712/gal...
Prius is the most reliable, most fuel efficient and most loved. It is exciting because Toyota is going to bring this technology into A-BAT.

You completely missed my point about the reliability of the emission control equipment.


RE: What ever happened to...
By masher2 (blog) on 12/30/2007 11:31:58 PM , Rating: 2
> "Electric motors and generators CAN be very reliable, but that doesn't make them inherantly so. "

I'm not a huge fan of hybrid technology, but trying to argue that electric motors are less reliable than the incredibly complex beast that is a Tier 2 Bin 5 Diesel engine is just plain silly. Your average large electric motor can easily last 30+ years of continuous use with little to no maintenance.


RE: What ever happened to...
By ice456789 on 12/28/2007 8:40:36 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, I guess the Prius has already solved the world's power crisis with it's 295 foot-pounds of torque. That explains all the electric semi-trucks that have been passing me on the highways lately.

Call me crazy, but I think we'll be driving flying cars before we are driving electric cars.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 10:02:55 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, you are crazy. We are talking about a compact truck and not a semi-trailer.

Eaton is already working on hybrid medium semis already. You will be seeing more and more vehicles electrified. City buses and UPS trucks are going hybrid too. Denying hybrid premium advantages will only get your head under a rock.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Andrwken on 12/30/2007 5:16:54 PM , Rating: 2
Most of those trucks will be positioned as city haulers, delivery vehicles, etc. Hybrid has advantages in stop and go driving, no denying that. But you are not going to get any benefit on OTR with these things, so what company is going to shell out extra for a kenworth with the $20000 hybrid option so they can back the trailer up with the motor off. Not to mention the fact that large haulers generally are more efficient when you leave them running and hot than to shut down constantly as a hybrid. You act like we all have some skewed hate for these things, but the reality is, the cost savings and fuel saving are probably more realised in large company fleets, than in the average consumer, other than how good you may feel driving it, lol.

Hybrid is stop-gap, and probably won't be around in 20 years.


RE: What ever happened to...
By encia on 12/30/2007 8:07:16 PM , Rating: 2
In Toyota's HSD system, it stores heat when ICE is not active.

quote:

Hybrid is stop-gap, and probably won't be around in 20 years.

Depends on the hybrid tech. Current HSD can be designed to link with any ICE e.g. Hydrogen, Ethanol(e.g. google E85 Prius test), Diesel(e.g. Euro Corolla 1.4L Diesel) and 'etc'.

Toyota FCHV (fuel cell hydrogen) also has HSD.

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nL4iuE2Fqo
Hydrogen ICE-Electric Hybrid Prius has HSD.

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktG-0IioHWo
Toyota Plug-In Prius (PHEV) prototype has HSD. In this case, the ICE is use to extent the range for the HSD enabled electric vehicle.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/30/2007 9:03:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hybrid has advantages in stop and go driving, no denying that

Not only in stop and go but also on the highway. There is no way a Yaris with smaller frontal area can pull 65-85 MPG on the highway as I did with a Prius.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1484126312...

As encia pointed out already, Prius has a coolant thermal tank to store the heated liquid and re-release them upon start-up. Prius can cheat and start at a room temperature even after 20 hours in 34 deg F temp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjdUr2BD6R4

quote:
Hybrid is stop-gap, and probably won't be around in 20 years

I disagree. In 20 years, majority of the cars will be hybrids. Resale value of non-hybrids will be so low because nobody will want them anymore. They can choose a used hybrid for alittle more and cut the fuel bill by half.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 10:06:22 PM , Rating: 2
Check out KillaCycle and see if that opens your eyes.

http://www.killacycle.com/


RE: What ever happened to...
By blwest on 12/28/2007 3:18:49 PM , Rating: 2
Key word here is "done right". People want cheap and a false sense of power, that's what Toyota is delivering.

quote:
Done right, a hybrid could in fact tow significantly more than an equivalent diesel engine.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 10:56:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
People want cheap and a false sense of power, that's what Toyota is delivering.


HSD is a well proven mainstream technology. The advantages of HSD are clear and well documented. Just search for Prius under my screen name at google video or youtube.

Your FUD should be focused on the GM's 2-mode trucks and huge SUVs.


RE: What ever happened to...
By blwest on 12/28/2007 11:25:02 PM , Rating: 2
You sound more like a fanboi to me.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 11:50:30 PM , Rating: 2
Just one of the satisfied customer with a passion for HSD.

There is a huge informative community at Priuschat.com.


RE: What ever happened to...
By usbseawolf2000 on 12/28/2007 11:50:31 PM , Rating: 2
Just one of the satisfied customer with a passion for HSD.

There is a huge informative community at Priuschat.com.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Moishe on 12/28/2007 8:35:30 AM , Rating: 2
He's right. Like the Honda Ridgeline this thing is basically an SUV with an open trunk.

Check out the reviews on the Ridgeline... It drives great! It rides great. It's has a lot of features. Women love it!... and real trucks can do all of the real truck stuff... while the Ridgeline cannot compete. Why? Because it's not a truck. It's a car that has a truck-like body (it had a bed).

The Subaru Brat/Baja is not a truck. It's a car with a bed.

I've got no problem with the concept, but let's not call anything with a bed, a "truck".

On the up side, this vehicle would fit right in with the Subaru and it would perform most if not all of the needs of the person buying it. It won't by any means replace a real truck though.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Spivonious on 12/28/2007 9:59:34 AM , Rating: 2
You mean the El Camino isn't a truck?? :O


RE: What ever happened to...
By ethies on 12/28/2007 12:53:22 PM , Rating: 2
No sir, it is a donut machine!


RE: What ever happened to...
By Amiga500 on 12/28/2007 10:55:34 AM , Rating: 2
Correct.

It saddens me to think what has "evolved" from the legendary Toyota Hilux.

The early Hilux defined pick-up.


RE: What ever happened to...
By Polynikes on 12/28/2007 12:19:56 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, I was stunned when the damn Honda Ridgeline won 2006 Truck of the Year from MotorTrend. That thing is just a large SUV with a small bed welded on the rear end, and a square front end to make it look more like a truck.


Manly-Men Disagree
By Verran on 12/28/2007 10:00:52 AM , Rating: 5
As always, we've already got the rough 'n tough manly-men showing up saying "Well I tow X a distance of Y with my pickup, so if this can't do that too, then it's not a pickup!" Fine, it's not a pickup. Call it a car, or a compact, or a station wagon, or a station wagon crossover. Who really cares?!

Will it tow a house? No, it won't. If you need to tow a house, and you're considering this vehicle, you're an idiot. Go buy your F450 diesel and enjoy. But just because this car isn't for YOU, doesn't mean it's worthless.

Look at all the douche-bags that drive Excursions and Navigators and Escalades to work everyday and have never hauled more than a briefcase and a single kid. There's a huge market for "domesticated pickups" out there, and if you haven't realized that now, that's pretty sad.

It's not meant to compete with construction equipment, and you're a moron if you think otherwise. It's meant for people who'd like to be able to haul the occasional sheet of drywall, or piece of furniture, or lawn-mower, but who don't want to get 12mpg every other day of the month. It's targeted at daily-driving and light hauling, and I'd say it'll do that job just fine, and get better mileage than most other cars that can do the job too.




RE: Manly-Men Disagree
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 12/28/2007 10:03:30 AM , Rating: 3
This man speaks the truth. You don't need a big "manly" truck to do trips to Home Depot, to get mulch for the backyard, transport a washer or dryer, etc.

I think everyone is getting too wrapped up in the idea of what a traditional pickup truck WAS used for and what it is used for TODAY.


RE: Manly-Men Disagree
By Keeir on 12/28/2007 2:54:02 PM , Rating: 2
I guess the main arguement against this auto (and most auto's similar to it) is that as convergent device it does everything poorly.

As a passenger vechile, it seems little better than a sports coupe or my A4. It certainly loses out to the Highlander and many other SUVs, Mini-Vans, and sedans currently on the road.

As a performace vechile, it will probably be slightly better than a full or medium sized truck. But with the AWD and large body... well, it won't perform any better than a Highlander, SUVs, Mini-Vans, and sedans.

As a utility vechile, its only slightly better than sedans in that it has a four foot bed and a little better than SUVs since you can go up. (Although it can expand this, if your expanding INTO the cabin, whats the real difference between using this and an SUV?) Oh, I've also hauled 8 cubic feet of mulch in an A4's truck using a nifty thing called a plastic tarp. It was annoying to load and unload, but for a once a year use it was acceptable. I have also hauled a washer, a dryer, and 4 chairs in the back of a normal Mini-Van (all at one time).

As an off-road vechile or for "rough" work, I would be hesistant to use due to the more sensitive electric equipment. But thats just supersition.

As a towing device, the Highlander Hybrid is rated for 3,500 lbs. I image this will be similar. Not exactly a stellar mark.

As for Fuel Efficiency, I would expect it to be no better than the Highlander Hybrid and even a little worse due to what appears to be worse aerodynamic performace. I would imagine an EPA rating of 24-25 mpg combined (Higherlander is 26 combined) and real world usage more like 20-22 depending on the driver. This is not much better than a variety of Mini-Vans and SUVs currently on the road.

As the saying goes, when you set out to do many things, you often suceed at nothing. There is a market for this car, but mainly that market is those who want the green badge on their car. There are already more enviromentally friendly options for almost every consumer currently on the market.


RE: Manly-Men Disagree
By Spuke on 12/28/2007 11:54:27 AM , Rating: 2
I know you're trying to make a point and I agree with it. But the Ridgeline gets no better gas mileage than regular pickups. My wife gets 18 mpg in mixed driving in her Tundra and most diesel pickups get better than that. No where near your 12 mpg figure (the Ram SRT-10 gets that and much less though). A hybrid version would most assuredly get better mileage but I doubt in reality it will be much more than 20 mpg. My guess is 22 mpg. I'll be shocked if it gets more than that.


RE: Manly-Men Disagree
By Ringold on 12/28/2007 4:40:19 PM , Rating: 2
You're not saying anything the "rough 'n tough manly-men" haven't already said.

They're marketing it as a truck, clearly, look at the thing and read the article. The "rough 'n tough manly-men" are just raising the BS flag -- it's not a truck. It doesn't compare to the capability of what traditionally has been understood as a "pickup truck," even the now-deceased S-10.

So we agree, it's not a truck, but not necessarily useless. Thanks for the non-contribution and the insults. Kiss my rough 'n tough tail pipe. :P


RE: Manly-Men Disagree
By 0roo0roo on 12/30/2007 12:34:55 AM , Rating: 2
finally a voice of reason.
some guys confuse their truck with their penis.
who cares if it doesn't tow a freaking yacht.
its like arguing no tv under 104" should be called a big screen. its just stupid.


...
By shabby on 12/28/2007 12:20:49 AM , Rating: 1
*puke*




RE: ...
By Rockjock51 on 12/28/2007 3:23:06 AM , Rating: 1
Probably the ugliest vehicle I've ever seen in my life.


RE: ...
By blwest on 12/28/2007 3:21:59 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, it's fugly.


RE: ...
By Moishe on 12/28/2007 8:38:08 AM , Rating: 2
It does have that "Toyota" look... They're reliable, but ugly.


RE: ...
By LumbergTech on 12/28/2007 3:21:05 PM , Rating: 2
kinda looks like the vehicles from halo


Besides the Color
By littlebitstrouds on 12/28/2007 12:21:05 AM , Rating: 2
Besides the color of the interior... it's actually quite attactive. It's about time these things start getting made.




RE: Besides the Color
By rudy on 12/28/2007 2:32:04 AM , Rating: 2
they never look like the concept when they released


RE: Besides the Color
By Hare on 12/28/2007 4:25:38 AM , Rating: 2
PT Cruiser didn't change too much :)


RE: Besides the Color
By Schadenfroh on 12/28/2007 11:23:56 AM , Rating: 2
Rule of thumb is, if the concept is ugly, the released version is ugly?


reminds me of....
By teng029 on 12/28/2007 12:35:55 AM , Rating: 3
honda's ridgeline..




RE: reminds me of....
By Reignfyre on 12/28/2007 2:46:20 AM , Rating: 2
Only semi-attractive; the ridgeline always struck me as a piss poor knock-off of the avalanche. This thing almost looks like they did their own thinking this time.

I know that is asking a lot of the automotive industry, but it does help if you can fake it once in a while.


RE: reminds me of....
By marvdmartian on 12/28/2007 9:32:42 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, I was thinking of the bastard son of a Honda Ridgeline and a Chevy Avalanche, with some seriously color blind designed interior thrown in for the "I just threw up a little in my mouth" effect.

Leave it to Toyota to take the design lines they like from everyone else's vehicles, and incorporate them into a bastardized design of their own, instead of coming up with an original idea. Why not? It's worked for them for years now!


*Barf*
By Bonesdad on 12/28/2007 5:21:59 PM , Rating: 2
Don't you buy no ugly truck!




hilux was better for battle wagons
By rika13 on 12/30/2007 5:46:17 PM , Rating: 2
the hilux is the favored truck for use as a technical, when you gotta kill infidels, you need a truck that gets you to the holy war




"So if you want to save the planet, feel free to drive your Hummer. Just avoid the drive thru line at McDonalds." -- Michael Asher

DailyTech Poll
Which web browser do you use on your primary personal machine? 






44 Comments









botimage
Copyright 2009 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki