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Toshiba Qosmio G45-AV690  (Source: Toshiba)
Despite the recent string of bad news, Toshiba introduces new HD DVD-based products

Toshiba recently suffered a crippling blow by the hands of Warner Bros. The film studio announced on Friday that it would phase out the introduction of new HD DVD titles in May 2008 and instead will focus on standard definition DVDs and Blu-ray titles.

While the news was enough to make Toshiba and the HD DVD Group to cancel a CES press conference and 1:1 meetings with reporters, it hasn't stopped the introduction of the company's latest HD DVD-equipped notebook computer.

The new Qosmio G45-AV690 was announced today as the world’s first notebook with an HD DVD-R/RW drive.

“The Qosmio continues to lead the computer industry in terms of high-definition capabilities by bringing many of the most advanced technologies together into a solid and cohesive machine,” said Toshiba's Jeff Barney. “In a digital world that is driven by power cloaked in simplicity, the Qosmio G45-AV690 is the central hub of a user’s personal Digital Ecosystem, providing users with the ability to enjoy their HD content, while expressing themselves more fully in a digital world, and using HD DVD as a personal means of doing so.”

In addition to the headlining HD DVD-R/RW drive, the Qosmio G45-AV690 features an Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 processor, NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT GPU, 3GB of DDR2 memory, a 320GB HDD, 17" 1080p display, 5.1 surround sound, HDMI output, an OpenCable (OCUR) HDTV tuner and four Harman Kardon stereo speakers with an integrated subwoofer.

The Qosmio G45-AV690 is available now with at a price tag of $3,199 USD.

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HD-DVD
By InternetGeek on 1/6/2008 7:13:46 PM , Rating: 3
HD-DVD might die after WB reversal. It's sad because we will have to keep putting up with content region and what not.

But I don't think converging on one format will help sell HD better. Civilians (Real people) don't know/don't care/are not interested in the tech the disc is made. Only hobbyist/fans/professionals do because they stand to make a difference/make money by adopting early.

The studios fear Digital Downloads.




RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/6/2008 8:23:00 PM , Rating: 4
The BBC (due to European Laws) is required to release in both formats, I suspect we will see this enforced upon other companies as well that operate in europe. So HD DVD might not be the premier format but its not going to go extint if the EU has anything to say about it.


RE: HD-DVD
By rudy on 1/6/2008 9:02:00 PM , Rating: 4
I wish the US would adopt such a rule. Put the war back where it belongs in competitions hands. Not in who can get in bed with the right people or who already happens to have a console which they can lose money on to ensure blue ray succeeds.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 9:04:37 PM , Rating: 1
Microsoft could have done the same thing if they had wanted to. In fact, Toshiba begged and pleaded for them to do so.


RE: HD-DVD
By danz32 on 1/6/2008 9:28:35 PM , Rating: 5
Although I would like that for HD-DVD's sake, I don't think its the governments job to get into business matters like this. But maybe with those supposed $500 million dollar checks floating around, someone has to step in


RE: HD-DVD
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/7/2008 8:47:49 AM , Rating: 2
That's why the EU is getting involved. It's the fat checks and behind the doors dealings that they are after. They are trying to figure out why studios are alligning with specific formats and it will come down to money sooner or later, and the EU will impose penalties for it.


RE: HD-DVD
By WilsuN on 1/6/2008 11:03:09 PM , Rating: 2
How is forcing companies to distribute in both formats encouraging competition between HD-DVD and Blu Ray? If anything, it is ensuring the less successful company an untouchable income source.


RE: HD-DVD
By rudy on 1/7/2008 2:38:24 AM , Rating: 5
If their format really sucks it simply will sit on the shelves and they will not need to make more. Eventually it will die because it will be more costly to make the disks and distribute them at such low volumes then to just end the whole line for toshiba. It creates competition because the companies will actually need to fight for customer choice not get an in bed deal with another movie company. It in no way makes an untouchable income source, if they can't sell plenty of HD DVDs there will be no income other then the initial sale for each movie.

The reason MS did not put the HD DVD in the xbox is obvious why would they stick their neck out for someone else on billions of dollars. Where as in sony's case they could do it cause it was all internal. If MS had been the primary developer of HD DVD you bet it would have been in every console. Yeah toshiba begged to put it in there but im sure they did not make it worth MS's money cause they had no way to know the xbox would be beating the PS3. both companies were making big gambles on the other company doing well and so they could not do it. But as said sony was not in that position since they made both products.

Believe me if HD DVD dies you will all be in a world of hurt as sony has no competition. If it lives everything will be cheaper. Do you honestly think either company would be giving away all these free HD movies with players if the other did not exist. Do you really think that the players would have come down in price so fast.


RE: HD-DVD
By tomoyo on 1/7/2008 2:58:42 AM , Rating: 1
I'm really tired of people spreading utterly bullshit fud about sony having no competition if hd-dvd dies. DVD HAD NO COMPETITION AND IT CERTAINLY DROPPED IN PRICE. BLU-RAY WILL DROP IN PRICE BECAUSE IT COMPETES AGAINST EVERY OTHER ENTERTAINMENT FORM ALREADY. Hd-dvd is not keeping blu-ray cheap, blu-ray will keep itself cheap to a) keep warner and studios happy b) become mass market c) ALL other electronics companies will release blu-ray players even toshiba unless they completely leave media players. d) BLU-RAY MUST COMPETE AGAINST NORMAL DVDS.


RE: HD-DVD
By MBlueD on 1/7/2008 5:53:19 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think that it is correct to say that DVD had no competition - as far as I know, DVD wasn't a proprietary format. Companies manufacturing DVDs competed with eachother, driving the prices down (advances in manufacturing processes must've helped too). It was the same with CDs.
I think that what people are trying to say is not that Sony won't drop prices - just that, with no competition, they would have no incentive to drop them fast enough (for us).
I could be wrong of course...


RE: HD-DVD
By Boushh on 1/7/2008 4:29:44 PM , Rating: 2
DVD is a proprietary format, you need a license to make 'em (http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/license/l_howto.html). It's not Linux you know :)

And it would ofcourse help if anybody took the time to actualy lookup what a license would cost. Asfar as I can make out (I'm no expert on this) the maximum payment is $60,000 per 5 years . There doesn't seem to be a per 'item' charge.

You however need additional licenses for AACS, BD+, and other things like Dolby Digital and dts.

Now looking at the price of things, that $60,000 is nothing compared to the costs of actually developing/manufactoring players/recorders and making disks (which include digitalization of audio/video, authering, subtitles etc.). I fail to see how that amount would have any significant impact on the price of a player/recorder/disk.

Also, the fee's are collected by the Blu Ray Disc Assocation, not by SONY. Just like the DVD fee's are collected by the DVD Forum.

And thus, how would having only Blu Ray be any different from having only DVD (or CD for that matter) ?


RE: HD-DVD
By MBlueD on 1/8/2008 8:49:10 AM , Rating: 2
I didn't know that DVD was proprietary. Thanks.


RE: HD-DVD
By tmouse on 1/7/2008 2:18:02 PM , Rating: 2
WRONG. DVD did not really have to compete with anyone. It was mostly a matter of capacity. All you need to do is look at Sony's history: the Trinitron was always the most expensive television bar none, it had NO competition in their superior technology and they licensed it to no one. In all of their dealings (successful or not) their license fees are substantial. They do not have to keep anyone happy if they hold all of the cards. The "war" between formats is forcing the prices down on the hardware somewhat but I suspect this will soon stop, as HD is certainty not looking very good now and I feel things are about to get worse. The delay in the release of combo players is not a good sign. We will all pay in the end. The fact is most people do not even have HD sets and the majority of them are the 720 versions. The non HD versions of movies are still outselling the combined HD formats 10:1. Many people have large libraries of the older titles and with few exceptions will not get HD versions. The average Joe still sees TV's as a commodity item and is still balking at spending $1000 on a TV. This will change, BUT it will still be a few years. After HD’s demise I think there will be a small blip in sales as the early HD adopters switch but it will soon flatten out. Then I expect to hear how some major blockbuster (more than likely from Sony) will ONLY be released in Hi def because "it will be the only way to truly experience the film" within a year of HD's demise. Sure it will mean a loss but if its a big enough film they will still make money, then the other parties with vested interests will follow suit, after all if there is no other route to own a new movie what choice do you have? Also expect Sony to start giving big time to slow down the growth of net streaming and increasing its license fees on blue ray recorders to protect its investment.


RE: HD-DVD
By Pneumothorax on 1/6/2008 11:32:48 PM , Rating: 2
Sweet! Guess I'll be ordering plenty of HD-DVD imports from the UK. Too bad the dollar is taking a "pounding"


RE: HD-DVD
By cubby1223 on 1/7/2008 12:17:05 AM , Rating: 2
Not even close, buddy. Not even close.

Just buck up and take the news like a man.


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By EODetroit on 1/7/2008 12:45:44 PM , Rating: 2
What the hell? Since when do random clowns posting comments have any effect on the web site's credibility?

quote:
Honestly this site has turned into such a rag, lately the posters have the journalistic integrity of a 15 year old girl that likes to gossip.


That's insane. Get a grip.


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 12:49:43 PM , Rating: 1
Actual site admins who write the articles going on delusional trips about the EU and hd-dvd's future do.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2008 1:01:18 PM , Rating: 3
First of all, Kenobi isn't a site admin. As for him being "delusional" about the EU, it's indisputable that the EU has initiated an investigation into the business practices of the HD format alliances:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118341745768555943...


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 1:08:31 PM , Rating: 1
Well whatever title is appropriate other than admin.

Delusional fantasies about hd-dvd still having things in the bag at this point are also indisputably delusional.

Seeing people that champion capitalism switch to championing socialism when the winds blowing the right direction is hilarity.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2008 1:22:51 PM , Rating: 2
I'm the ardent champion of capitalism on this site, and I've long been against the EU getting involved in the HD-DVD/BD market, both today and when their action was first announced.

As for the futre, must I remind you that Paramount has a (slightly) larger market share than WB, and Paramount recently dropped BD support?

HD-DVD is in an arguably better position today than it was in August of last year, when both studios were dual-format. Now, if they lose Universal, that'll be dire straits indeed, but I don't see any evidence of that happening.


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 1:26:47 PM , Rating: 2
Evidence is strong. Universal has been courted by blu ray for a long time, and has thus far declined to comment even as paramount has elected to reaffirm their support for now.

If you really believe hd-dvd is somehow going to dominate with 2 studios then more power to you. I have some magic beans I'd like to sell to you as well.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2008 1:30:40 PM , Rating: 2
> "If you really believe hd-dvd is somehow going to dominate with 2 studios "

45 studios, to be precise. And I've never said HD-DVD will dominate. My prediction today is the same as it was last year, and the year before. Both formats will persist, until dual-format players predominate, and eventually wind up erasing the distinction between them:

http://www.dailytech.com/HD+Format+Wars+Declaring+...


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 1:37:44 PM , Rating: 1
You are welcome to your opinion. Even though it's blatantly wrong.

It's over for hd-dvd simple as that. The only thing hd-dvd is doing at this point is standing in the way. No one continued to make betamax dual format players even as beta lingered on and on and on for 10 years. No one is going to continue to make hd-dvd dual format players as more and more studios bail.

70% of the market is locked up tight and it's a matter of time before Universal switches. It's over, get used to it.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2008 1:41:38 PM , Rating: 2
> "No one continued to make betamax dual format players "

Betamax and VHS were differing form factors. That alone precludes a cheap, compact dual-format player. The situation with HD-DVD and BD is considerably different.


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 1:51:30 PM , Rating: 1
O V E R

The end, finished, done, bye bye dud, that's all folks.

Eat up all the sunshine you want, it's going to be an avalanche of desertion from here.

Dual format players are still an extra cost, soon theres going to be less than 20% of the market on DUD, extra cost and complexity to support that isn't going to continue as more and more studios follow Warner's lead. More importantly Warner's correct analysis's that backing one format will increase proliferation and more rapidly drop costs. The only hope that an hd format will ever be anything but a niche compared to dvd.

DUD is in the way of that and needs to die, thankfully that's finally on the way.


RE: HD-DVD
By porkpie on 1/7/2008 2:04:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
O V E R The end, finished, done, bye bye dud, that's all folks.
Weren't you saying the same thing four months ago? Right before Paramount dropped Blu and went HD-DVD exclusive?


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 2:36:18 PM , Rating: 2
As a matter of fact no, I wasn't.

Paramount didn't drop blu ray, Paramount was PAYED, there is a huge difference. Warner dropped DUD, and they dropped it for free, despite what the DUDsters conspiracy theorists might imagine.

Paramount's contract also expires, not that anyone will need to wait that long, they will be back to blu-ray before then.

Your new slogan should be "HD-DVD keep the delusion alive".


RE: HD-DVD
By alifbaa on 1/6/2008 8:44:39 PM , Rating: 3
Whether his reasoning is correct or not, I think his conclusion is spot on...

Unless one side just comes out and capitulates, consumers will continue to sit on the sidelines and wait for combo players to proliferate and come down in price. It's clear they will never pick a winner.

WB switching to BR, while a huge blow to HD, will not kill the format unless Toshiba lets it. I can't see a reason for them to capitulate, since doing so would only hurt themselves.

What seems most likely to me is that HD will live on, take a secondary place to BR, and then combo players and download services will take over.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By porkpie on 1/6/2008 9:03:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Bring up all the possibilities and hypothetical arguments you want: it's dead, Jim
You PS3 owners have been saying the same crap for over a year, and guess what? HD-DVD keeps chugging along, breaking sales records. Transformers on HD-DVD is still outselling anything on Blu Ray. Paramount goes HD-DVD and you pretend it means nothing. WB goes BD and you pretend its the end of the world. Well guess what? No one's falling for it.

A year ago BD was outselling HD-DVD 4 to 1. Now its down to 60:40 and holding. HD-DVD is selling 20X the raw number of discs it was a year ago. That isn't the mark of a format which is "dying".

I REALLY hope the PS3 releases some decent games, so all you fanatics will have something to do besides spew FUD on forums. Until then, I guess we'll just have to deal with it.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By porkpie on 1/6/2008 9:20:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to Nielsen, YTD is 65-35
"Year to date" includes the first quarter of 2007, when Blu Ray was outselling HD-DVD 4:1 at some point.

Looking at CURRENT sales, its closer to 60:40. BD lost a lot of ground with the HD-DVD price cuts.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 11:48:25 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, it's improved so dramatically it still couldn't top Blu-ray software sales 1 week in 2007, even when Transformers and Shrek were released.

Blu-ray: 52-0. It's kind of hard to argue with that. And it might be about 60-40 here in the states (which is still a decisive lead), but overseas it's much different. A point I've yet to see any HD-DVD fan touch. Can't say that I blame them.


RE: HD-DVD
By SirLucius on 1/6/2008 9:09:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A year ago BD was outselling HD-DVD 4 to 1. Now its down to 60:40 and holding. HD-DVD is selling 20X the raw number of discs it was a year ago. That isn't the mark of a format which is "dying".


Ugh, last I checked the United States isn't the world. And last I checked, HD-DVD was getting pounded worldwide.


RE: HD-DVD
By enlil242 on 1/6/2008 9:57:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In the next few months, you'll start seeing retailers downplay HD-DVD


Dude, Best Buy "Blue Shirts" have been pushing Blu-Ray and downplaying HD-DVD for a while now. I've heard it come straight from their mouths.

I can only imagine that it was somehow company mandated since Sony's product penetration is very big in these stores. Plus they never stocked enough of the big HD-DVD titles when released on both formats.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 8:56:09 PM , Rating: 3
HD-DVD is 38% of the market, and has shown substantial sales increases every quarter of 2007. It's not going to go away by any stretch of the imagination.

Right now, a studio can afford to ignore either or both formats, as their raw sales numbers aren't competing with DVD itself. But extrapolating the growth trend forward 12 months, and the situation becomes a lot clearer.

I predict that around 1Q 2009 we'll start seeing the (non-Sony) "exclusive" studios switch back to supporting both formats. The Sony studios will likely follow about 6-9 months later, when its clear the change isn't going to affect the market one way or the other.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 9:00:13 PM , Rating: 2
HD-DVD is 38% of the market in the United States! Did anyone here bother to, oh, I don't know, read the goddamn Warner press release?

Overseas, HD-DVD was getting beat even worse than it was here in the States.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 9:27:44 PM , Rating: 3
Of course, because HDTV penetration is even lower overseas than it is in the US. That means the "PS3 factor" is even larger there; most people aren't buying standalone players yet to go with their sets.

The important thing to remember is that the total market there is smaller, and thus much more open to rapid swings in either direction. And the real question is what happens when the average European consumer begins buying HDTVs and standalone players.


RE: HD-DVD
By mars777 on 1/6/2008 9:53:35 PM , Rating: 2
Just for the sake of argument, here in he EU HDDVD has lost a lot of ground lately. We don't have your 99$ HDDVD players, and we don't have much HDDVD movies going around. We don't even have your X free movies with the player offers. So people choose what is better marketed: guess what's that?

When did you see a HDDVD commercial on TV? - this is where HDDVD is loosing, and loosing badly.

We are saving HDDVD with our laws but the US is not the world and Toshiba should focus on that...

If you ask me: the HDDVD group is too damn weak, they aren't competing strongly enough, and they should if they want to live.


RE: HD-DVD
By Belard on 1/7/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/7/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/7/2008 12:08:16 AM , Rating: 2
And I quoted the wrong article there. Whoops.


RE: HD-DVD
By SavagePotato on 1/7/2008 1:03:18 PM , Rating: 2
Uh no.

Your extrapolating a fantasy.

With Warner gone hd-dvd's grown is going to take a nosedive. Analysts, websites, retailers, everyone is saying don't touch hd-dvd now. No one is going to be jumping on that sinking ship.

Chances are Universal will switch to blu ray soon, Paramount won't be far behind. I will be surprised if anyone is releasing on hd-dvd by summer.


RE: HD-DVD
By creathir on 1/6/2008 8:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
In the end, I believe all studios will release on all formats. It is silly for them to "pick a technology"

If a market exists, they would be FOOLISH to just ignore it.

Freemarket forces always rule.

- Creathir


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 8:57:15 PM , Rating: 2
Didn't read the comments from Warner did you? Or maybe you did, but wanna play the "they'll change their tune card" and bring up some irrelevant post from months back.

Fine. Believe whatever you want. Time will tell and you'll be wrong.


RE: HD-DVD
By kellehair on 1/6/2008 8:57:30 PM , Rating: 2
The "freemarket forces" have already ruled. BD is trouncing HD. Why would a studio want to release discs in 2 different formats when one would suffice?

Furthermore BD already has a commanding lead and the WB shift seals it. WB is the leader in DVD sales accounting for about 20% of the market. BD now has a 70-30 exclusive advantage over HD. The war is over.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 9:03:57 PM , Rating: 2
Here, let me give you a preview of what kind of responses you'll get:

1. Digital downloads will destroy Blu-ray!
2. Warner and 20th Century Fox will switch back to HD-DVD.
3. People don't care about High-def right now, and they never will. And even if they do, Blu-ray will be dead by then.


RE: HD-DVD
By porkpie on 1/6/2008 9:11:44 PM , Rating: 3
You clowns have been spouting "the war" is over for over a year, yet HD-DVD sales just keep on rising. By raw number of discs, its selling over 20X better than it was a year ago (BD is only selling some 12X better btw). And that doesn't even count all the sales from the hundreds of thousands of standalone HD-DVD players sold over Christmas.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 9:15:40 PM , Rating: 1
Hey, are those standalone players the $99.00 firesale players, or are they the Xbox 360 players that Toshiba decided to factor into their "stand alone" numbers. Just wondering.

Oh, and if you read the Warner release, Blu-ray players (not the PS3, either) outsold HD-DVD players in the 4th quarter.

Just read the Warner press release. Their reasons were valid.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 9:31:18 PM , Rating: 2
> "Oh, and if you read the Warner release, Blu-ray players ...outsold HD-DVD players in the 4th quarter."

Nonsense. The press release said no such thing. Here's the original text:

http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812...


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 11:54:51 PM , Rating: 1
My bad. I confused the PR with this article:

http://www.contentagenda.com/blog/1500000150/post/...

quote:
According to Sanders, however, Warner's decision was driven by consumer behavior, more than an expectation of resolving the format war.

"It’s hard for us to speculate about impact this will have on the format war. All we can do really is make the best decision for our business and the rest of it will really take care of itself, in time," he said. "One of the things you see in the NPD data for this fourth quarter was that even with a $100 [price] premium, Blu-ray set tops outsold HD set tops in December. Even with Toshiba having the lowest-cost player in the market, software sales remained 2 to 1 in favor of Blu-ray."


Surely, you're not going to hold a slight mistake like that against me? I've provided the evidence straight from Ron Sanders and friends.


RE: HD-DVD
By crazyblackman on 1/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD
By zombiexl on 1/7/2008 8:37:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hey, are those standalone players the $99.00 firesale players, or are they the Xbox 360 players that Toshiba decided to factor into their "stand alone" numbers. Just wondering.


Before I respond, I'll say I have a 360 add-on and a PS3. Ok now thats out of the way...

It make far more sense to include an add-on that can ONLY be used for watching movies than to include a console which may or may not be used for movies.

Although I do have to say I didn't buy one PS3 game yet.


RE: HD-DVD
By SirLucius on 1/6/2008 9:22:02 PM , Rating: 4
Lolwut?

HD-DVD fans were saying that the war would be over when Paramount went red.

HD-DVD fans were saying the war would be over after the Wal*mart fire sales.

HD-DVD fans were saying the war would be over after the Black Friday sales came in.

HD-DVD fans were saying the war would be over once Christmas sales come in.

All I've heard from HD-DVD fan's is how the war would be over after each milestone. Yet in the US and the rest of the world, Blu-ray continues to outsell HD-DVD.


RE: HD-DVD
By SirLucius on 1/6/2008 9:04:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In the end, I believe all studios will release on all formats. It is silly for them to "pick a technology"


But in this case, I don't think it's silly to pick a technology. Your average consumer likes choice, yes, but they like simplicity more. The studios have picked up on this, and that's why there's so much talk of moving everything to one standard. Two movie formats creates confusion in a market that is, generally speaking, rather simple.

I kinda hate to use video games as an example, but look at the success of the Wii. Part of that is no doubt because there is only 1 SKU to choose from. You don't have to worry about getting shafted on features or paying for more than you need. There's a standard in place that's easy for people to understand.

I think that your average Joe's are looking for that in the hi-def market. Simplicity.

quote:
If a market exists, they would be FOOLISH to just ignore it.


There's only one market for hi-def media (ignoring an online distribution setup). I don't see what market movie studios ignore by not supporting one format over the other. As HD-DVD fans have said over and over, HD-DVD and Blu-ray are essentially the same.

quote:
Freemarket forces always rule.


And yes, the free market always rule. In this case Blu-ray has been outselling HD-DVD on a very consistent basis, despite the cheaper cost of HD-DVD. Consumers have been consistently choosing Blu-ray players and media over HD-DVD. There's been a fairly even split between movie studios up until now too, so consumers have had a diverse choice of films on both sides. It's hard to argue that the majority of consumers haven't been choosing Blu-ray up until now.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 9:18:04 PM , Rating: 3
> "Your average consumer likes choice, yes, but they like simplicity more."

Which is why dual-format players will dominate the market. That's the ultimate win-win situation for everyone. Ultimately, the cost differential between a SF and DF player is going to come down to $20-$25...and that's about the time most of the market is actually going to own an HDTV and be interested in a matching player.


RE: HD-DVD
By SirLucius on 1/6/2008 9:24:06 PM , Rating: 2
But will HD-DVD last that long? Dual format players are great, but if Blu-ray gains momentum from the Warner deal, other studios will most likely jump ship.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 9:36:14 PM , Rating: 2
Of course it will; its sales have been steadily increasing every quarter since it came out. Not increasingly fast enough to squeeze out BD obviously, but still increasing. And that's the critical point. Extrapolate HD-DVD sales forward 12 months, and its grown to a size too large for a studio to comfortably ignore.

At that point, it won't matter how its selling relative to Blu Ray. All that matters is the raw number of sales the studios are leaving on the table if they ignore the format.

This isn't Betamax vs. VHS. Both formats have the same physical form factor, making dual format players an eventual certainty.


RE: HD-DVD
By SirLucius on 1/6/2008 9:40:56 PM , Rating: 2
That's true, but you have to take into account recent developments. Will HD-DVD continue to grow now that Warner is exclusively Blu-ray? Will Blu-ray sell more now that Warner releases are only on Blu-ray? If Warner hadn't gone exclusive (one way or another), I think your argument would hold more salt. I think it's a bit reckless to say that HD-DVD will continue to increase at the same rate now that one of the most influential studios is only supporting Blu-ray. While studios will certainly look at lost sales, they'll also consider the potential jump in sales if Blu-ray really pulls ahead.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 9:50:09 PM , Rating: 2
HD-DVD was growing when Paramount and WB were both dual-format. Now that one is HD-DVD exclusive and the other is Blu Ray exclusive, I think the net effect is going to be rather small.

People are still missing the most important point. What matters isn't studio exclusivity, its releases. Right now, all the studios-- even the exclusive ones-- are skipping HD for most of their releases, and choosing just DVD.

What will matter the most for 2008 is the total number of releases these studios will choose for HD. If WB keeps releasing 95% of its films DVD-only, then this decision isn't going to have much effect at all. If it opens up the floodgates (and Paramount and Universal don't), then it will.


RE: HD-DVD
By ATC on 1/7/2008 12:15:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What matters isn't studio exclusivity, its releases. Right now, all the studios-- even the exclusive ones-- are skipping HD for most of their releases, and choosing just DVD.

Is it at all possible that Studios for the most part in 2007 have refrained from releasing their big titles and catalogues because they still weren't sure how things stood, positioning themselves to be ready to jump at minimal cost?

Paramount and Universal have especially been doing that which makes me wonder, did Paramount pocket the 150M, release as few titles as possible while still being within contract boundaries, and simply wait till they decide what to do next?

Last CES, and I predict this year's CES too, there was/will be very little title announcements from HD-DVD.

To me, if I was in the HD-DVD group, that would make me nervous. And the WB decision would be making my skin crawl right now.

Now matter how you cut it, WB's and New Line's decisions have just handed the BD Association a 75% exclusive studio support. There is no way, logically or otherwise, for HD-DVD to further grow from this point on and gain on BD.

So, going back to those studios who are closely watching this, Paramount, Universal et al...can you really rule out that their lawyers aren't busy right now working out how to back out of HD-DVD because they don't want to be the last one holding the red box?

Does that have anything to do at all with the fact that the HD-DVD group was throwing so much at WB to switch, and publicly stated that WB is key if/when they chose to go exclusive?

The question is, how fast will the domino effect from this be. Days, months, years? Who knows, but this is for certain; unless a big BD-only studio, such as Disney, jumps ship to HD-DVD or be neutral, HD-DVD does not have a chance this time around . I emphasise "this time around" because we truly have never been in a similar position or so close to ending the format war until now.


RE: HD-DVD
By mars777 on 1/6/2008 10:01:31 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe they were increasing (comparing to BD) in the US (not abroad) but that's it. And I don't know if they will still increase after may when Warner stops HDDVD support. After loosing 20% of market and giving that portion of market exclusively to BD, its sales ought to go down.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/6/2008 10:10:54 PM , Rating: 2
They lost 20% to WB and gained 15% from Paramount/Dreamworks. But that still misses the point. You're far too focused on how one format is doing relative to the other. What a studio looks at most is raw sales figures...how many total discs they're likely to sell...or not sell, if they fail to support a format.

Let's take a hypothetical situation. Say a year from now, HD-DVD is selling 10X as many discs, but BD is selling 15X as many. Now obviously that means BD has gained ground. But does that make it more likely for a studio to drop HD-DVD? Not at all. Ten times the current sales figures are real money, and a market far too large to dismiss. Which explains why, until very recently, all these studios were still releasing everything in VHS as well as DVD. Because that extra format was too much money to leave on the table.


RE: HD-DVD
By Belard on 1/7/2008 1:35:31 AM , Rating: 3
But your hypothetical numbers are way off. (I don't own EITHER format)

1 - While you talk about HD-DVD sales being higher than a year ago, BluRay still has a much large cut of the market to begin with. The biggest selling HD-DVD movie is Transformers, which is nothing buy Eyecandy... I didn't bother to buy it at all and saw it once in the theater.

2 - The ONLY exclusive Studio for HD-DVD is Paramount... thats it. Sony pictures has a WHOLE lot of better titles that Paramount... in which their best selling titles are NOT even out on HD-DVD (Star Trek Francise for example) other than ST-TOS S1... and with only an 18month deal, Paramount wasn't STUPID enough to lock-them into HD-DVD forever...

3 - This is not the same as VHS. More VHS VCRs are sold today than HD-DVD players. VHS has been on the market for over 30years... Once DVD players hit the sub $100, VHS died quickly for movies... it cost more to produce software, etc etc.

4 - HD-DVD sales may continue to climb as more people buy HD-DVD players... but with more studios making BR only content - then the desire to support 2 formats WILL DIE. They are too simular to support both. VHS/DVD/LD are 3 totally different types of media. Who does NOT want to support 2 formats:
(a) Studios = logistics of producing the right number of titles for both sides.
(b) Stores = Wow, 2 shelves of the same HD-Format movie.
(c) Consumers = Can I get this title? Will it play on what I have, etc etc.
(d) Manufactures of Players = Once its BLU-RAY, period - the cost for the product WILL GO DOWN MORE = more sales by consumers.

(5) Other than Toshiba and Microsoft's xbox addon... nobody is MAKING HD-PLAYERs. There are 6million more PS3 than there are HD-DVD players... which have not cracked 1million (I think)... if 30% of PS3 owners also use it to play movies - that would be 2.33million active BR consumers.

(6) Very few people are buying $800~1000 multi-format players... With very low-sales, the manufacturing of these WILL NOT go down... This is the same argument the HD-DVD camp says HDD is better than BR... but as proven, the cost between a BR player and HD-DVD is $0~75... and that is a NON 1080P Toshiba!

(7) Studios that are ONLY BluRay
- SONY Pictures (Includes several sub-studios like TriStar etc)
- Disney (which includes) Buena Vista (Lots of TOP SELLERS)
- FOX (I thought they did both)
- Liongate
- MGM

In 14 months, Paramount's contract with Toshiba will end. I think the $150million payout will cost them a lot more money when/if they drop HD-DVD... That is over a year of NOT making BluRay sales. Disney and SONY are both very powerful studios... Truth be told, I have CARs DVD, and since I have a kid - it gets used a lot... and I enjoy watching it with him. Transformers, not very watchable.

I'm not PRO sony because of SONY. They are the same as most other big companies... Look at Amiga, it blew the doors off MAC and MS-DOS in many ways, but it lost because of the market power of PC and Apple.

NOTE:
* I Do not own ANY Playstation hardware. I do NOT own any HiDef player. I *DO* own both a SONY and Toshiba DVD/VCR combo players and happy with both.

* Bestbuy is including a FREE Sharp BluRay player with the purchase of a free 42" or larger HD TV... not bad.


RE: HD-DVD
By masher2 (blog) on 1/7/2008 11:33:51 AM , Rating: 2
> "2 - The ONLY exclusive Studio for HD-DVD is Paramount"

And Universal and Dreamworks, plus smaller studios like Nickelodeon, MTV Films, and the Weinstein Company.

> "Other than Toshiba and Microsoft's xbox addon... nobody is MAKING HD-PLAYERs"

Wrong again. RCA, Onkyo, and Venturer make standalone HD-DVD players. LG and Samsung make combo players. And ASUS and HP make add-on HD-DVD drives.

> "Very few people are buying $800~1000 multi-format players... With very low-sales, the manufacturing of these WILL NOT go down"

This is so silly I hesitate to even reply to it. Did it not occur to you that 95% of the components in a combo player are common to HD-DVD and BD, and will thus those costs decline in tandem with their sales? A huge chunk of the remaining cost is amortized R&D, which when recovered will also decline.


RE: HD-DVD
By Belard on 1/7/2008 5:01:41 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't include Dreamworks as they use Paramount as their Parent company. Same as I didn't include PIXAR or New Line Cinema. The other studios combined don't amount to much. Hence, only Paramount and Universal are the last 2 big players that matter. Nickelodeon, MTV Films are under the Paramount group... SO they are not included seperately. IE: When Paramount supports BluRay, it means THEY will release the films, TV shows whatever from MTV and Nicklelodeon.

quote:
Wrong again. RCA, Onkyo, and Venturer make standalone HD-DVD players. LG and Samsung make combo players. And ASUS and HP make add-on HD-DVD drives.


er- Wrong (1) As stated before, Venturer is a startup, selling bottom end Toshiba with a more limited warranty. They do NOT actually make anything.

(2) RCA is no longer making an HD-DVD player. When I counted the number of players on the market, currently - *I* did not include discountinued models from HD-DVD or BluRay. Go to the RCA website yourself, look on Amazon's site - nothing (other than $150 used units) - oh and it was manufactured by.... TOSHIBA, the A1! Very OLD!

(3) Onkyo does make a player (my bad) - there is a possiblity its another Toshiba. Onkyo is not sold to the mass-market, which is about $900. With this in mind, Denon makes two Blu-Ray players ($1100/$2000), so we'll add that to the BluRay list as well.

(4) I don't include the Dual-format players, they are expensive and don't add or subtract scores for either side.

(5) We're talking about HiDef Players for the most part... any ASUS makes both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray drives for PC.

(6) HP doesn't make Optical drives... they sell PCs with the option for the user to choose either BluRay or HD-DVD or none. But since you brought it up, I went over to Dell, they only sell Blu-Ray on their PCs.

There is no room in the industry from dual format HiDef Discs. Both sides have $300 players... LG's player is still $800... There is not much market for a dual format... and when it fails, ouch.


RE: HD-DVD
By Belard on 1/7/2008 8:14:57 PM , Rating: 2
In the matter of Onkyo's HD-DVD player.

Late November 2007, its offical that Onkyo has stop production of the DV-HD805 player (their ownly player)
http://formatwarcentral.com/index.php/2007/11/27/o...

Onkyo blames Toshiba for making cheap players. Who'd pay $900 for a HD-DVD when you can buy one for $400?
Onkyo is a slightly modified Toshiba XA. So we are now back to Toshiba, only.

Meanwhile, Samsung is release ANOTHER Blu-Ray player. Even thou thay make a Dual-format player, they are not releasing a dedicated HD-DVD player.

Panasonic is releasing two more Blu-Ray players.

FUNAI is coming out with a sub $300 player (Yeah, Funai is a cheap company, but they are bigger than you think - they make pretty much ALL the VCRs on the market for the past 5+ years)

PS: The Color Pie chart on Wikipedia is updated. That a whole lot of blue in there.

The snowball effect is going to be more noticable now.
I bet there isn't a single company (manfacture, studio, consumer) that is thinking: Yeah, BluRay is gonna die. Just when is HD-DVD going to go down.

The other fact that Toshiba canceled their HD-DVD press conferene is a sign of a problem, they have yet to reschedule this. I'm betting there is a lot of talk going on behind close doors... deals are most likely changing this very moment, and Toshiba doesn't want to look worse by saying "company A, B, C are on board" - when they just lost Company B... who knows. The dust hasn't settled yet.

notice: I don't own any HiDef player. I did lean for BluRay more so because its almost double the data storage.
(single layer BR = 25gb, double layer HD = 30gb).


RE: HD-DVD
By littlebitstrouds on 1/7/2008 11:44:43 AM , Rating: 2
You missed Masher's point... you see he finds obscure facts, theory's, and other random crap, formulates what he calls a "statement of fact" and proceeds to hi-jack threads by annoying people with posts spattered with these "facts" pretending what he says is law. God haven't you learned yet? If you don't believe me, have a fun read and click on his other posts from the last month... this guy's a champ.


RE: HD-DVD
By Belard on 1/7/2008 4:24:51 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah.... right. So who sells these $99 players today?

What I say is NOT law... But I am not making up the prices I see at MY Walmart nor the prices available on Walmart, best Buy or newegg's websites. You do know how type in a URL address or use google?

Its funny to see these people say that HD-DVD costs half the price of BluRay players when its not true... that IS a FACT.

Hey - you stated your opinion, nothing more. You don't bother to check if what I say has merit or not, that is your problem. This is a public discussion, for the most part - Most of everything here is an opinion.

So enjoy yourself.


RE: HD-DVD
By Belard on 1/9/2008 3:32:31 AM , Rating: 2
So what "facts" I posted are made up?

Onkyo and RCA have stopped production of their HD-DVD units.


RE: HD-DVD
By Chiggs on 1/7/2008 12:01:16 AM , Rating: 2
I''ll bookmark this for future reference. And by future reference, I mean the day and date Universal jumps ship, leaving only Paramount/Dreamworks to honor their 18 month contract.

And keep up with the dual format nonsense. You'll be eating crow sooner or later.


RE: HD-DVD
By reader1 on 1/7/2008 12:40:37 AM , Rating: 2
No, the Warner Bros. move was a lot more important.

Because now there are no more neutral studios and Blu-ray has the most support. It's safe to buy Blu-ray because there's no chance of it dying. HD-DVD still may die, that makes it a lot riskier (even if you buy a hybrid). It only takes one of HD-DVD's two remaining studios to switch to make HD-DVD pointless. This high risk factor will drive HD-DVD sales down below their 36% share of last year. The fact that HD-DVD supporters aren't even considering the possibility of winning anymore and hoping for at least hybrids to survive shows even they know Blu-ray is safe and HD-DVD isn't.

If the studios wanted two formats and hybrids they would have been neutral from the start. But, it's always been an all or nothing situation.


Feature Sets
By blwest on 1/6/2008 11:47:52 PM , Rating: 3
I was comparing the feature sets of HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray. The only advantage IMO of BR is the capacity, which isn't really an issue for movie watching--unless movies become more than 4-5 hours.

--Both are 1080P -Tie
--Dolby Digital TrueHD is optional on BR but mandatory on HD-DVD - HD-dvd wins here
--Price - HD-DVD is less expensive for a 1080P TrueHD unit --HD-DVD wins
--ethernet, optional on BR, --HD-DVD wins
--Secondary video -- only available in some BR --manditory on hd-dvd
--combo discs - not on BR, available on hd-dvd
--Region free viewing -- regions on BR, not on HD-DVD
--Capacity, 50 vs 30 GB --BR wins one!!!

Clearly, HD-DVD is a better choice for consumers, yet for some reason (PS3??) Blu-Ray appears to be the winning camp.

I have a friend who recently bought a PS3 over a standalone BR player because it offered more features for less money than a standalone player.




RE: Feature Sets
By Chiggs on 1/6/2008 11:58:28 PM , Rating: 2
Gosh, what a stunningly unbiased comparison. Hey, you forgot a big one, though: Blu-ray's bandwidth advantage of 48mpbs to HD-DVD's 36mpbs.

Oh, and you forgot another: Blu-ray won't be dead in 5 months.


RE: Feature Sets
By Belard on 1/7/2008 2:26:37 AM , Rating: 1
LOL... funny.... lets go over your list again, since its missing some stuff:

--Both are 1080P -Tie
My reply: The $400 and up Toshibas are the ONLY 1080P players... so kind of a tie. The $200~300 players are NOT.

--Price - HD-DVD is less expensive for a 1080P TrueHD unit --HD-DVD wins
My reply:
Very wrong. Local Walmart. Toshiba A3 is $299, Sony's player is $288 on the SHELF! Go to BB and Walmart sites: Toshiba's cheapest 1080p player = $400~500 (A30 & A35). Sony, Samsung and PS3 are $300~400 and have 1080P.

--ethernet, optional on BR, --HD-DVD wins
My reply: So what? I like to watch my videos - not give the studios my marketing info as to what is played.

--combo discs - not on BR, available on hd-dvd
My reply: SO? I prefer a LABEL on my DVDs so I quickly know what I am looking at. (refer to double-sided DVDs)... most HD-DVDs are NOT combos. Toss this one out.

--Region free viewing -- regions on BR, not on HD-DVD
My reply: Not too big of a deal. Its optional for a studio to use it... and some STUDIOS REQUIRE it. There are 3 markets: Americas/Japan/Korea, Europe/Africa/Ausralia, Russia/China/India.

So your 7/1 score (HD/BR) = 4/4.
The BIGGEST thing going for HD-DVD was price... and its just not there.

Lets go over some OTHER BluRay PLUS you ignored:
Go to here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Player_p... And scroll down to STUDIO ALLIANCES (color chart). This pie chart is blu vs red... Its a bit out-dated as the purple WB/NewLine are changed yet... size of pies are based on market share size.

- Blockbuster rents ONLY BluRay in 1450 stores.
- Target sells ONLY bluRay players
- Only 25% market share studios are HD-DVD only. (Paramount, Universal) That is not substainable.
- Toshiba is the ONLY maker of HD-DVD. 6 companies have BluRay on the market today. Another 3 companies in 4 months...

I am thinking that when I am ready to to get an HD player, it will be a PS3 because its $100 or so more than a standard player.


RE: Feature Sets
By zombiexl on 1/7/2008 9:02:16 AM , Rating: 2
Only thing I can say about Ethernet is that its pretty damn useful to updgrade the incomplete feature set that BR keeps updating.


RE: Feature Sets
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/7/2008 9:13:32 AM , Rating: 2
LOL. True. Even with a BR Victory, the real kicker is that most of the players currently on the market do not possess the capability to upgrade them to the latest BR Spec, firmware only gets you so far before a hardware change is needed. That's my largest complaint with BR.


RE: Feature Sets
By jamdunc on 1/7/2008 12:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
I had to reply to this Mr Belard as unlike the guy who's list you are criticising, your score is based on your opinion whereas his is based on facts.

Well except for price and even that is a moot point as a 1080i player still becomes 1080p on a 1080p screen, and if you only have a 1080i player then it doesn't matter what player you have!

As for Ethernet, you can't discount it and make it a tie just because you don't approve of it. It's a feature and so makes HD-DVD the more complete solution.

I myself own the HD-DVD addon for the 360 but I do also own a Sega 32X and a Commodore Amiga CD32. I just love my gadgets!!

But I am waiting for Digital Downloads that come without DRM. I reufse to go near DRM if I can help it and so even a PS3 is off-putting to me because of the Blu-Ray movies DRM.

Time will tell how my money is spent though.


RE: Feature Sets
By jamdunc on 1/7/2008 12:42:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
and if you only have a 1080i player then it doesn't matter what player you have!


Should read 'doesn't matter what screen you have!