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Gadgets Toshiba Launches HD DVD Player Fire Sale
Brandon Hill (Blog) - January 13, 2008 2:14 PM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 153 comment(s) - last by toms89.. on Jan 18 at 7:01 PM

Tiger Direct lists the Toshiba HD-A3 for $129.99
Toshiba fights bad news with lower prices

DailyTech brought you steady coverage over the past week concerning the latest news in the HD DVD vs. Blu-ray wars. Unless you've been living under a rock, you by now already know that Warner Bros. made the decision to back Blu-ray exclusively.

The move by Warner Bros. was followed by similar actions from New Line Home Entertainment and HBO Home Video. Recent stories have even suggested that Paramount is also tossing around the idea of supporting the Blu-ray disc standard.

Toshiba apparently doesn't want to go down without a fight and is instead slashing the prices on its HD DVD players. Toshiba's second generation HD-A2 players previously dipped down to the sub-$100 mark during November -- but that was during the traditional holiday buying season and not truly indicative of regular retail pricing.

Now, Toshiba's third generation 1080i-capable HD-A3 is selling for a mere $139.98 on Amazon.com. The 1080p-capable HD-A30 is not much more expensive at $179.98. For the price of an Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on, consumers can now purchase a fully-fledged set top box with 1080p support.

Amazon isn't the only retailer with the discounted pricing, however. Tiger Direct is selling the HD-A3 for $129.99 and the HD-A30 for $179.99. There are also reports that Sam’s Club and Costco are selling the HD-A3 for as little as $128.

In addition to the lower prices, customers who purchase Toshiba's HD DVD players are still eligible to receive five free movies via a mail-in rebate -- this is in addition to the two movies, 300 and The Bourne Identity, which come in the box.

It remains to be seen if this move by Toshiba is simply an act of desperation, but the tides are definitely changing and a haze of "Blu" can be seen drifting in from the distance.

For all we know, this could be the last hurrah for HD DVD, so it looks as though Toshiba wants to go out with a bang.

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Could be interesting
By porkpie on 1/13/2008 2:59:40 PM , Rating: 2
Even with all the recent announcements, HD-DVD is still selling 38% of the market, same as they've been doing the past several months. This fire sale could really make things interesting. All it needs to do is hang in another year. By then there'll be so many players out there the market will be too big to can no matter how well Blu Ray is doing.




RE: Could be interesting
By Fox5 on 1/13/2008 3:10:27 PM , Rating: 2
Not so true if all the studios decide to move away from HDDVD.

Forget about HDDVD's share still being rather significant compared to blu-ray, both are still small enough that the studios can easily abandon one or both. Thing is, the PS3 has enough support (even with lack luster sales) that will guarantee a decent sized Blu-ray support based. HDDVD has no such guarantee. Now, if microsoft had released an x360 sku with HDDVD support (and eventually moved towards all 360s having it), that would make this an interesting fight.


RE: Could be interesting
By NullSubroutine on 1/13/2008 5:41:48 PM , Rating: 5
How many millions of PS3's (as Blueray) are on the market? 8, 10 million? How many for HD-DVD (which are almost all stand-alone players) 1.25, 1.5 million? And Blueray is only winning 64/36%?

Most PS3 owners are not buying Blueray compared HD owners. As the more stand alone players are released the gap SHOULD shrink, if it were not for WB and Newline leaving HD-DVD support.

I am not saying HD-DVD is staging a comeback just yet, if at all. But I am not awed by 'Blue-Ray penetration'.


RE: Could be interesting
By TJ Spyke on 1/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Could be interesting
By mushi799 on 1/13/2008 8:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
6 million? Try closer to 9 million ps3.

"shows no sign of improving sales" uhhh they sell about 200k per month so eventually that # will grow.


RE: Could be interesting
By rninneman on 1/13/2008 8:10:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
8, 10 million? The PS3 is at about 6 million and showing no signs of improving their current sales.


No signs of improvement? Better check again.
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1173
PS3 sales are ahead of Xbox 360 sales after the same number of weeks available.
http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php

quote:
I am glad that BBC will continue supporting both (citing the fact that the HD DVD version of "Planet Earth" has outsold the Blu-ray Disc version).


Do you have numbers to back that up? The Blu-ray version has consistently held a higher position on the Amazon Top DVD charts. Currently the BR version is #14 whereas the HD-DVD version is #33.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/dvd/ref=sv_d_...

Give it up; HD-DVD lost.


RE: Could be interesting
By sweetsauce on 1/13/2008 8:31:12 PM , Rating: 4
Amazingly people continue to quote vgcchartz as a source to prove their point... You're better off making up a website and creating your own numbers, would be just as credible.


RE: Could be interesting
By rninneman on 1/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Could be interesting
By sweetsauce on 1/14/2008 12:12:53 AM , Rating: 1
Its been posted here countless times but i'll indulge you. http://nexgenwars.com/ To someone uninformed it might seem like trolling to you, but facts say otherwise.


RE: Could be interesting
By Pezman37 on 1/14/2008 5:06:53 AM , Rating: 3
Hopefully I'm not the nail that gets hammered down, but

http://nexgenwars.com/

didn't seem to be based in fact anymore than daily tech, and all the time I see facts fudged here. They do cite their sources, but I also didn't see any sources that looked reputable.

http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php

They also didn't seem very reputable, but nextgen at least didn't look like a college kid got bored and made it over a weekend like http://vgchartz.com/ does. Either way both of you seemed flawed to me in your citations.

Saying "according to XYZ" with sony or kotaku or some such is as much noise as any politician would make. If Sony themselves released such numbers (not someone else saying "well sony told us/ released blah blah") AND people didn't start attacking those numbers, THEN it might have some basis in reality. These are blogs, and anyone can make an online news site. There's no BBC or CNN for gamer news, so it all has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Maybe there is a more definitive source, but it's neither of those two sites as far as I can tell.


RE: Could be interesting
By Demon-Xanth on 1/14/2008 10:07:21 AM , Rating: 2
Where the 9.1 million comes in:
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_sa...

People are adding up all the numbers, thus counting Q3 and Q4 of 2006 twice. They're only upto 5.6 million as of 9/31/07 (Q2 of the fiscal year). 5.5 million shipped as of 3/31/07 according to:
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdataps3_e....


RE: Could be interesting
By othercents on 1/14/2008 11:51:31 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
They're only upto 5.6 million as of 9/31/07

Most everyone has projected that PS3 sold 3 mil units from 10/1/07 - 1/1/08. While your numbers are very accurate they are also old and don't take into account the Christmas sales.

Other


RE: Could be interesting
By Demon-Xanth on 1/14/2008 12:51:47 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, they're old. But the new numbers from neither Sony or NPD have not come out yet. So effectively, everything else is an estimate. The NPD chart is likely to be out in a week or two, then we'll have an even number.

Sony has been quoted as saying that they sold 1.2M PS3s in NA during that time period.


RE: Could be interesting
By rninneman on 1/14/2008 12:14:03 PM , Rating: 2
nexgenwars.com is even less reliable. Only the manufacturers know for sure what the sales are and they aren't exactly forthcoming with exact details. We can infer however which site is probably right. Microsoft publicly stated recently that they had shipped 17.7 million Xbox360s. The sites in question are quoting retail sales. Vgchartz is quoting 16.3 million and Nexgenwars is quoting 14.4 million. So what do you think is more likely? That there are 1.4 million or 3.3 million unsold Xbox360s in warehouses and retailer stores. I have a hard time believing 1.4 million let alone 3.3 million so which site do you think is more accurate?


RE: Could be interesting
By rninneman on 1/13/2008 7:56:24 PM , Rating: 2
Your numbers on HD-DVD players are way high. It was 750k at the end of November. That included the Xbox add-on drive. Your numbers on the PS3 are high too. I remember reading that in the US there are 4-5 million PS3s now. (We can't use the worldwide number because the disc sales firgures are US. Worldwide, BR is dominating even more.)

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Tr...

I would bet the gap is not greater because HD-DVD does have 30% exclusivity for now.


RE: Could be interesting
By dluther on 1/13/2008 10:57:34 PM , Rating: 1
Here's something to consider:

I just bought a PS3 and three Blu-Ray movies. Then last week I bought a Toshiba HD-A30, which I hadn't yet opened in anticipation of getting an HDMI hub.

When Paramount went public with the Blu-Ray exclusive news, I sent my HD-DVD back and got a refund.


RE: Could be interesting
By Lazarus Dark on 1/14/2008 1:15:09 AM , Rating: 2
Prior to last week, I was saving up for the LG combo bdrom/hddvd drive for 300$ Now I am just going to get the Liteon bdrom drive for 200. I'm not going to waste money on an unnecessary combo drive if all the studios are going to move to Bluray.


RE: Could be interesting
By Shadowmaster625 on 1/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: Could be interesting
By rninneman on 1/14/2008 5:53:05 PM , Rating: 1
I can't figure out if this is a serious post or not. Just in case it is, here it goes.

Every BD drive since day 1 is compatible with all BD disc structures in the BD standard. Profiles 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 are software related. That means upgrading your version of WinDVD or PowerDVD adds the new capabilities. (Both of those programs were recently updated to profile 1.1) Even if some were to choose to not upgrade, the profile 1.0 versions will still play profile 1.1 and 2.0 discs. It just won't enable the special features of 1.1 and 2.0.

Sounds like someone is really pissed they invested in the losing format.


RE: Could be interesting
By BansheeX on 1/14/2008 1:47:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
How many millions of PS3's (as Blueray) are on the market? 8, 10 million? How many for HD-DVD (which are almost all stand-alone players) 1.25, 1.5 million? And Blueray is only winning 64/36%?

Most PS3 owners are not buying Blueray compared HD owners. As the more stand alone players are released the gap SHOULD shrink, if it were not for WB and Newline leaving HD-DVD support.


I love Monday morning analysts. The gap will not shrink because PS3 sales will do 10 million this year at least. That is 17-20 million blu-ray players by the end of 2008. That WIDENS the gap, and it has WB/New Line exclusive now which it didn't before.

"Most PS3 owners are not buying Blueray compared HD owners."

Percentage-wise, obviously, that is true because many PS3 buyers do use it for games only... for now. You forget the variable of discovery which could change that statistic. These people don't have to buy something, they just have to realize they have it. If they get new TVs or the proper incentive comes out (LOTR)... bam, that could kick start their entry. And you're also dealing with brute force numbers. Even a minority of 17 millions is going to be more than HD-DVD's total units.


RE: Could be interesting
By Chaser on 1/14/2008 11:53:42 AM , Rating: 2
It's not necessarily penetration or adoption rate at this point. Most everyone is right that compared to DVD hardly anyone really has bought a high def player yet. The movie studios realize that locking down the format to one early in a new format's infancy is most advantageous to them. This makes it more simple for everyone, most importantly consumers. Most definitely better now than later.

This fire sale is a desperate, last ditch effort to keep some of HD DVD alive enough to where there will be at least some movies out there to justify it's extremely limited future use. But 3-4 years from now most everyone else involved in the industry will have done the right thing and chosen one format for the simplicity and convenience of the consumer.

Fire sale is right. Except Toshiba's house is on fire, they are throwing people out of windows as fast as they can knowing most will not make it.


RE: Could be interesting
By Shadowmaster625 on 1/14/2008 4:52:58 PM , Rating: 1
extremely limited future use? Idiot. How can something that does the same thing and will always be cheaper have "limited future use"? You sound totally brainwashed or hired by a studio.


RE: Could be interesting
By jackedupandgoodtogo on 1/15/2008 5:05:27 PM , Rating: 2
So I take it you still own a Betamax player and consider its future bright? Looks to me someone is mad about buying something that's going to be obsoleted by the studios.

The fact is, Toshiba is trying to create a market through hardware with low prices, but anyone who knows the computer market knows it's software that sells hardware, not the other way around. That HD-DVD player is useless just sitting on your rack without a disc. Better enjoy your existing library cause it may be all you'll be able to play in the near future.

However, I think even BD won't last like DVD did, even if all the studios switched. With so many DVD's in my collection, I'm sick of having discs that scratch, break, skip, and take up space. Bring on the streams! No more physical media for me! I'll wait!


RE: Could be interesting
By toms89 on 1/18/2008 7:01:16 PM , Rating: 2
I would not call HD-DVD player a beta max. Beta max only played beta max. HD-DVD can play all standard dvd's in addition to HD-DVD's. It also compares favoribly with high end upconverting dvd players and less expensive. When I play some of my vast collection of standard dvd's they look far better than they did with my "other" upconverting player. Right now I have an HD dvd player that has more features than any blu-ray player for far less money. I do not regret this purchase. I would do it again. Eventually I will purchase a blu-ray player when the price becomes reasonable and I can find a player with better reviews. Until then and most likely after also I will enjoy watching HD dvd's and standard dvd's on my HD player.


RE: Could be interesting
By ImSpartacus on 1/13/2008 3:28:56 PM , Rating: 2
It doesn't matter how many players are in consumer hands. If everybody goes to BR camp then its game over.

I personally don't care who wins, just that someone wins.


RE: Could be interesting
By Spuke on 1/13/2008 4:29:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It doesn't matter how many players are in consumer hands. If everybody goes to BR camp then its game over.
It doesn't? It's the consumers that determine the market not the studios besides, as was already shown, the studios can switch back and forth at will.


RE: Could be interesting
By ani4ani on 1/13/2008 5:22:22 PM , Rating: 5
Let's see you buy that film then that the studio decided not to put out on your chosen format - then I will believe the consumer has real power. All well and good having cheap HD players...but they could all end up as expensive DVD players without content.


RE: Could be interesting
By masher2 (blog) on 1/13/2008 5:45:15 PM , Rating: 3
In the past, studios have pushed a lot of formats that went nowhere. Some initially balked at supporting DVD, and even VHS. In the long run, the consumer *does* choose the format, not the studios.

Right now, studios can easily choose to back (or ignore) one particular HD format simply because the gross numbers are small...it doesn't affect their bottom line much either way. But as the market continues to grow, that dynamic will change.


RE: Could be interesting
By Christopher1 on 1/13/2008 10:55:03 PM , Rating: 1
masher2 has a point. There have been many formats that people thought 'wouldn't go anywhere' - VHS being the most well-known one that fits into that category when it first came out.

The reason it did so well - lack of content protection compared to Betamax. That is what really tipped the scales in favor of VHS, the fact that people could easily back up their bought stuff and wouldn't have to buy it 2 or 3 times.


RE: Could be interesting
By deeznuts on 1/14/2008 3:00:32 AM , Rating: 5
Consumers did choose. They chose blu-ray. Warner was selling both and consumers chose BD. They dropped HD DVD and now the war is over.


RE: Could be interesting
By The0ne on 1/14/2008 3:52:26 AM , Rating: 3
I think Blu will really take off once pervs buy their specialty items on BD. There's talk in the industry about moving to Blu already. If it happens, it could be the deciding factor. We all know how big the industry is and how many pervs are out there :)

So yes, consumers will end up choosing the format. In other words it's all in our "hands." :)


RE: Could be interesting
By masher2 (blog) on 1/14/2008 10:39:11 AM , Rating: 4
> "Consumers did choose"

Yes they did--so far they've chosen DVD, and ignored both new HD formats.


RE: Could be interesting
By kenji4life on 1/14/2008 7:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
If we look forward to 2009 when the broadcast will be fully switched over to HD, the HDTV market will finally bloom.

Most users will probably ignore choices other than DVD/Internet until that point. Some might argue that HD/BD could both be defeated by on demand content and digital downloads. My money is not on any of these formats yet, I'm sticking to the internet and cutting back on DVD purchases until I have better visibility of the road ahead. Like Mr Asher has pointed out, most people will follow the same pattern as myself.


RE: Could be interesting
By overzealot on 1/14/2008 11:04:18 AM , Rating: 3
Why do you care that someone "wins"?
Is there some rule against competition or something?
Competition lowers profit so you can understand companies fighting to neutralise it, but if it helps keep player and disc prices down why hate it?


RE: Could be interesting
By Oregonian2 on 1/14/2008 2:16:38 PM , Rating: 3
Don't know about the person you responded to, but I'd rather someone winning the format war too. I want the content companies to compete on content, not on disc format. I want the equipment manufacturers to compete on quality, user interfaces, and prices. They can compete on formats too, I don't mind that so long as it doesn't subdue the content guys mentioned above. Universal players is an acceptable alternative to all going to one format but seems to be lagging the development and price curves vs patience for the content guys. For instance, the competition for DVD+R and DVD-R was fine because they were player compatible even though they did things very differently.

I buy players for the related media's content, not for the players themselves. I suspect more than 90% of the consumer market does likewise.


RE: Could be interesting
By overzealot on 1/15/2008 1:37:52 AM , Rating: 2
I wasn't meaning to reply to Imsparticus (must have missed) but I was making a general reply to all of the "I hope this format wins" posts. If no studio was format exclusive then customers could choose whichever format they prefered, which was more affordable/desirable, etc.
Then we could would have the manufacturers competing with each other over price of the discs, licencing for the players, etc. You know, that whole free market thing us capitolists love so much.
If no-one wins then you will still get content on both formats, because for the studios to do otherwise would result in lost profit.


RE: Could be interesting
By Oregonian2 on 1/16/2008 2:20:45 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that could have been a short term solution as well, but as you know it retards the whole market unless universal players dominate. I think the studios picking sides rather than making both originally (other than for Sony studios of course) had to do with DRM issues. The problem of dual inventories and dual distribution and SKU's, etc I suspect wasn't the dominating thing but I could be wrong. I suspect stores and Netflix (etc) who are the major direct customers of the studios would definitely NOT be happy with having to stock and sell two versions of everything.


RE: Could be interesting
By AlexWade on 1/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: Could be interesting
By inighthawki on 1/13/2008 10:22:01 PM , Rating: 2
saying that WB will right up switch because of more sales is even a little outrageous for m to say. I back HD-DVD and all, but i think your assumption is a little far off. I imagine if Toshiba can get enough sales, WB may be more than likely to support HD-DVD as well, maybe not make a jump though


RE: Could be interesting
By Serafina on 1/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: Could be interesting
By FXi on 1/13/2008 10:42:31 PM , Rating: 2
There are a ton of us sitting on the sidelines right now. If the wind truly blows Blu, then you can bet the Blu marketbase is going to grow 10x it's current size in a matter of months.

You know what a lot of folks got for Christmas? HD screens. You know what they want to know now? Which of these two is going to be what I want to watch on my big screen?

As soon as a death is seen as imminent, declared or not, the race to FIND a BR player for sale will be on. That will be a scary thing to watch as the prices initially will go up, not down.


RE: Could be interesting
By sweetsauce on 1/14/2008 12:18:35 AM , Rating: 4
In my opinion you are wrong. I guarantee you most people don't care who wins if players stay above the $150.00 mark. Even $150 is stretching it, $100 is the sweet spot. Then you'll see people willing to make the jump officially.


Going out with a bang...
By MetaDFF on 1/13/2008 2:26:14 PM , Rating: 2
It looks like they are either trying to attract more customers with lower prices, or recovering sunk costs before wrapping things up for good.




RE: Going out with a bang...
By Darkefire on 1/13/2008 2:35:21 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty much. It's a damn shame, too, because this is the sort of behavior consumers have been waiting for. Open warfare in the retail market means lower prices for us, which is what I was banking on to finally get myself into the HD era. Alas, Blu-ray's imminent success will probably keep me in SD hell for several more months, since even if I could afford the HDTV there's no way I'd be able to afford the premium cable package necessary to enjoy it. Pity.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By Bremen7000 on 1/13/2008 2:55:12 PM , Rating: 2
Grab an upscaling DVD player. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing with the HD formats (and my analog cable still looks like crap), but upscaled DVDs still look phenomenal on a larger TV. This could be attributed to being used to a 20+ year old <30" CRT set, but I bet that applies to most of the country. If I can be happy with an HDTV and upscaling DVD player, so can you!


RE: Going out with a bang...
By bobobeastie on 1/13/2008 3:53:37 PM , Rating: 3
I wouldn't be happy with simply upscaling movies, although most people would. The problem with upscaling SD DVD's is that some look terrible. Heres a good example; The non criterion release of The Rock on DVD had black bars on all sides of the video, the only way to watch it on an HDTV is to zoom in, which results in a terrible picture. Then there is the Blu-ray copy released last Tuesday which is reference material, highly suggested. Also HD video allows you to see new details in both old and new movies that upscaling can't reveal.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By anotherdude on 1/13/2008 5:06:28 PM , Rating: 2
I have a good upscaling DVD player and the picture is much better than standard DVD but HD movies look much better to my eye. This on a 1080i CRT.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By Oregonian2 on 1/14/2008 2:27:03 PM , Rating: 2
Well, your argument mostly argues that proper creation of the disc by the manufacturer makes a big difference, less so on the format per se.

Now on a pragmatic basis, getting a Blu-Ray disc would be the only way to get a properly done one for that movie -- the Blu-Ray is better for more reasons than just it's HD'ness. I watched a upscaled DVD last night that I had to zoom for the very same reason, and although watchable, not great. Those haven't been a high percentage, fortunately.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By masher2 (blog) on 1/13/2008 5:49:46 PM , Rating: 5
> "...Grab an upscaling DVD player"

The nice thing about the Toshiba HD-DVD players is they've been consistently rated as some of the best at upscaling standard DVDs. And at these prices, they're cheaper than a good upscaler too.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By atwood7fan on 1/14/2008 8:32:29 AM , Rating: 2
I got my parents one of the hd-a2's from the walmart sale and it does an excellent job of upscaling regular dvds.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By theapparition on 1/14/2008 10:41:19 AM , Rating: 3
This is a completely valid point. The Toshiba players are all upscaling DVD players, and very well reguarded on their upscaling capabilities.
So what if you blow $130-180 on a great upscaling DVD player that also does HD-DVD's too.

I have 4 HD-DVD players and two Blu-ray players. I own a lot of movies in both formats. In the end, I still think you're going to see combo drives as the standard.

What could HD-DVD do now to change the landscape of the format war? Simple, the studio's could reduce media cost. HD-DVD was billed as the technologically inferior (30GB vs. 50GB), but signifigantly cheaper alternative. Movies were supposed to be pressed on the same DVD lines with only minor upgrades.

If so, why are the average movie prices at the local Wal-Mart/Target or Amazon run around $30-35? Everyone talks about the cost of hardware reaching below that magic $100 barrier. I think the real winner will still be decided when one side gets it's movies on a cost par with DVD. When the movies are the same price, who wouldn't want the HighDef version, but at the price premium (which is currently 2-3x). Mass market consumers will then look at what hardware is required to watch those new HD movies. Right now, it is still looked at by the market as the "expensive" option.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By Oregonian2 on 1/14/2008 2:34:52 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I use an OPPO 981HD for upscaling to a 58" Panasonic 1080p plasma. A lot of normal DVDs look phenomenal. But some look less so (and those usually are single-layer DVDs as well -- this player can tell you how many layers at the touch of a button (of which it has a LOT)).

Because Blu-ray (etc) is new, I'd expect all produced discs to be carefully crafted productions made to show the content as best as it can be shown. Not where DVDs are. Ten years from now quickie el-cheapo productions will produce Blu-ray/HD crappie discs too. :-)


RE: Going out with a bang...
By Christopher1 on 1/13/2008 11:07:47 PM , Rating: 1
HD cable is too expensive right now. I don't understand why the prices keep on going up for cable compared to satellite TV..... just doesn't make sense, even when you factor in having to replace cable lines on roads and poles in order to get cable to homes.

$125 dollars for digital cable? Freak no! We have that in our home, and I have been trying to talk my father into going to DirecTV or another form of satellite service for TV, and staying with Comcast ONLY for high-speed internet, which they do well in our area and give a reasonable price for.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By sweetsauce on 1/14/2008 12:22:54 AM , Rating: 4
Its called consolidation. We were told by the FCC that consolidating the cable companies would be a good thing for consumers, even when logic would dictate otherwise. They said it would lead to lower prices since the cable companies would be able to compete with the sat companies better. All comcast has done for me so far is wipe out the local cable company i had and drive up my price every year. Unfortunately i have no other option where i live, so they get away with it.


By Shadowmaster625 on 1/14/2008 4:59:09 PM , Rating: 2
thats because the modern consumer was made to be raped. They dont think things through and thus they pay a premium for junk features they dont need. Hence the current domination of blu-ray. It's like an extension of what the cable companies are doing. So bend over and enjoy!


RE: Going out with a bang...
By darkpaw on 1/14/2008 10:32:38 PM , Rating: 2
$125 just for cable? Sounds like you're getting ripped off.

I pay that for cable, internet, and phone service with a few premium channels ($129 actually).

When I had direct TV, I was paying $100 a month for 4 tv service with no HD and no premium channels. Also had to buy my DTV equipment and pay for replacements if anything actually failed. Had to pay another $55 a month on top of that for net access + phone.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By walk2k on 1/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: Going out with a bang...
By TheDoc9 on 1/13/2008 5:38:21 PM , Rating: 2
To me this says stay clear of HD-DVD. It's likely that they're trying to clear inventory before paramount moves over to supporting blu. It's probably some sub-paragraph of the contract with paramount that allows them to get rid of stock before a public announcement is made.

Last week every press conference on HD-DVD was canceled. This week the price of players is cut in half.... I wouldn't expect the free DVD's either, anyone that hasn't already received them likely never will. Put a fork in it, the standard is dead.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By sweetsauce on 1/14/2008 12:25:18 AM , Rating: 5
I guess its all perspective. To me, it says F U to warner and everyone that thinks toshiba will go away now and let blu take over. It says, ok we'll play fire with fire and create an installed base that you can't ignore.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By TheDoc9 on 1/14/2008 11:04:05 AM , Rating: 2
my comment gets a 0 rating and yours gets a five, lol. I wanted them to last longer as well, I have an HD-DVD player.


RE: Going out with a bang...
By The0ne on 1/14/08, Rating: -1
Doesnt Matter To Me
By BallsDeepX on 1/13/2008 9:42:02 PM , Rating: 2
I have a HDDVD player. I have no real issues if BluRay wins out (though I think HDDVD is a the better format). Right now I have tons of HDDVD movies. But if there is a movie not in HDDVD format and its in BluRay I buy it anyway even though I dont have a player. Then I rip it on my computer and then burn it to HDDVD format. Easy as pie. Ill continue to do this for as long as needed (until BluRay players are in sub 100 range). So Ill have a player for all my HDDVD and current ripped movies and an upconverting DVD player. So its not like the device wont be used even if BluRay wins, it will be used for a very very long time.




RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By Oroka on 1/14/2008 12:07:01 AM , Rating: 3
So, you will go out and by a BD-DVD driver for your computer, ohhhhh, about $250 right now, and a HD-DVD burner which is about... I cant even find a price, I am guessing atleast $300, and then $10 a pop for a blank 15gb HD-DVD. So you spent around $550 to avoid buying a $300 Blu-ray player?


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By BallsDeepX on 1/14/2008 3:19:08 AM , Rating: 1
You completely misunderstood. Nice.

I already have the ability to rip BluRay and HDDVD via my work (not a desktop model, those are just starting to come out). So lets see if you can follow along. I have a HDDVD player at home and tons of HDDVD movies. When I want a movie thats only on BluRay I buy it (even though I dont have a BluRay player). Then I rip the movie and burn it to HDDVD format and just watch it on my HDDVD player.

Only thing Ive payed for is a HDDVD player and the movies either in HDDVD or BluRay format.

If BluRay wins the format war Im still not really out of luck. Since I can continue to watch my movies and will continue to rip the BluRay movies and convert them to HDDVD format until the BluRay players drop below 100 bucks. Then Ill have both a HDDVD and BluRay player to play either format.

Were you able to follow along this time?

BDX


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By zombiexl on 1/14/2008 7:09:08 AM , Rating: 2
SO you are not only breaking the law yourself (and telling us about it), you are also involving your employer. I'm sure they would love to know that so they can fire you.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/14/2008 8:46:51 AM , Rating: 1
Not likely. Corporations have better things to do with their time than nit pick over the off-hour use of laptops. They couldn't care less.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By zombiexl on 1/14/2008 1:00:16 PM , Rating: 2
I'd disagree. Many companies are getting very concerned about this sort of thing. No company I work with would want the DOJ taking all their computers. And yes, thats exactly what could happen.

I guess he could be talking about a notebook, although I havent seen a notebook sporting HD-DVD burner and a BR drive, have you? I was thinking he/she was talking more along the lines of stand-alone equipment.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By BallsDeepX on 1/14/2008 1:17:33 PM , Rating: 3
Im making a backup of my movie, just because its in a different format doesnt change the fact that its still a backup. And my boss knows what Im doing lol, thanks for your concern though.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By zombiexl on 1/14/2008 2:03:31 PM , Rating: 2
I guess you forget the with DVD X-COPY thing... It went to court the consumers were given the middle finger by the courts..

Its still not legal to make a "backup". Unless it really is your "movie". As in you own the rigths to it, not just bought a copy of it on BR.

I was just pointing out you may want to watch what you say in public forums.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By MatthiasF on 1/14/2008 7:08:59 PM , Rating: 2
Your company is knowingly allowing you to make illegal copies of copyrighted material using their equipment?

God I hope you haven't posted any comments from work or Dailytech might be getting a subpoena soon.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By zombiexl on 1/14/2008 8:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
My guess is that his boss is not the owner. Although it doesnt matter to the DOJ.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 1/14/2008 8:38:15 PM , Rating: 2
It doesn't matter to anyone. The DOJ is going after the shops that print copyrighted movies and sell them. They really don't give a damn about the guy at home/work burning himself a personal copy or giving a copy to a friend. Is it cost effective for the DOJ to go after all these guys at home that rip CD's to their computer, or make a copy of a DVD and give it to a friend? Hell no. They have bigger fish to fry.

You two are either extremely paranoid or just lacking any sense of realism. What the law states, and how its enforced are usually two VERY different things.


RE: Doesnt Matter To Me
By Spuke on 1/16/2008 6:01:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What the law states, and how its enforced are usually two VERY different things.
When did making backups become illegal? I know the RIAA/MPAA would like that but as far as I know Fair Use still exists.


unfortunate
By RamarC on 1/13/2008 2:35:01 PM , Rating: 4
i think hd-dvd was the overall better of the two. yes, blu-ray was better from a technical standpoint (capacity mostly), but hd-dvd had better interactive features (that actually worked) and did not require significant retooling of existing dvd production lines.

this was one case when sony actually managed to promote their own tech and win. and i doubt if they'll be quick to drop prices on bd players into the $150 range.

just like with the discontinuation of rp lcd tvs, it's as if the consumer electronics industry is determined to push higher priced products (plasma, lcd panels) that offer little consumer benefit (that can be seen/used by most people) compared to lower priced alternatives. but i guess since we consumers seem to fixate on 'bling' than real performance (pricier is always better), we only have ourselves to blame.




RE: unfortunate
By DFranch on 1/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: unfortunate
By The0ne on 1/14/2008 4:03:49 AM , Rating: 2
The prices would be higher yes but probably not that high due to PS3 having a BD and costing 300-500 dollars. Eventually, the players would have to drop to those levels are lower. However, competition definitely drove it down quicker.

I knowledgeable buyer would probably not opt for a stand alone player costing almost twice as much as a PS3 but limited to just playing video. PS3 does that and much more. An un-informed buyer would buy the cheapest they could get their hands on and that would be HD at the moment.


RE: unfortunate
By MatthiasF on 1/13/2008 10:16:10 PM , Rating: 2
In a brick and mortar vs internet world, the internet retailers get to sell tons of cheap stuff at low profit yields and low costs (even get to push off the cost of shipping on the customer) while brick and mortar retailers need a higher profit yield to pay for higher costs (shipment, employees, support, real estate, etc.). So, of course the brick and mortars will push items they can make more money on an individual basis. Being TOO cheap was probably HD-DVD's downfall in this case.


RE: unfortunate
By sweetsauce on 1/14/2008 12:27:40 AM , Rating: 3
That and all the fancy displays sony gives them to promote blu. Sony has really done a good job marketting their product, i'll give them that.


RE: unfortunate
By mrteddyears on 1/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: unfortunate
By djc208 on 1/14/2008 7:37:25 AM , Rating: 1
Sony is not the only producer of BD players, in this they do have the advantage in that LG and Samsung also produce players (regular and dual format), even BD itself is a group of businesses.

My issue is (and has been) that the technology was never really marketed at the "consumer". It was a fight between the two format groups (businesses) and marketed at the studios. Us consumers were just caught in the middle, most people don't really care, others have been too smart to get involved, a few give a crap (for some reason), and all of us are tired of it.

The BD group was better at courting the studios by playing on their DRM fears. Region locking and extra security brought the studios on board. PS3s and big advertising helped push sales to convince the studios to go exclusive.

quote:
We have overlooked the fact that Sony has its fingers in a number of pie’s in the market as a whole from the films, distribution and the technology. This is never a good thing for the consumer.

Too true, I think the difference this time versus Sony's other formats is that they own a lot of the content too. When you can push the format, sell the players, and only release content in your format it's a stronger push than only having one or two of the three. HD-DVD didn't have that luxury, if MS had tossed an HD-DVD player in the XBox 360 this "war" might not be this close to over.


RE: unfortunate
By mrteddyears on 1/14/2008 11:05:08 AM , Rating: 2
Totally agree with being in the middle of this. I see the whole this as nothing more than further manipulation by a number of large companies on how and where I purchase my content including music.
Having purchased my large HD ready screen I want freedom of choice which is why I signed up fort HD satellite which is great and for now it’s an up-scaling DVD.


RE: unfortunate
By mrteddyears on 1/14/2008 11:05:09 AM , Rating: 2
Totally agree with being in the middle of this. I see the whole this as nothing more than further manipulation by a number of large companies on how and where I purchase my content including music.
Having purchased my large HD ready screen I want freedom of choice which is why I signed up fort HD satellite which is great and for now it’s an up-scaling DVD.


But nobody wants discs
By fluxam on 1/13/2008 6:49:49 PM , Rating: 2
More discs in too big boxes to try to store and keep track? No thanks. Irrelevant to an age when High Def can be rendered by an 8 Gb h264 codec reduced file (& much less if it's an animated feature).
The idea of any disc is to perpetuate the last-century's bloated, cost-ineffective retail store system.




RE: But nobody wants discs
By AlexandertheBlue on 1/13/2008 7:07:57 PM , Rating: 3
I want discs! I once lost 18 gigs of data when my hard drive went down and I hadn't been able to back it up. With a physical disc I can always recreate the data file.


RE: But nobody wants discs
By curiousone on 1/13/2008 7:45:59 PM , Rating: 4
I want discs too; I've checked out the download times for various titles - even with DSL, we're talking close to 40 minutes PER TITLE! I have other uses for my bandwidth, actually. And then, depending on the source of the download, you could be installing a different player software for each source! I want a bit more standardization than that! : )

When all download sources use ONE standard software for playback, and we have a faster way to deliver titles to home computers, THEN we can move away from discs - in the meantime - I like having something to call my own. So far as the comment about the traditional retail system - bypass it and order on-line.


RE: But nobody wants discs
By bobobeastie on 1/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: But nobody wants discs
By winterspan on 1/13/2008 9:04:26 PM , Rating: 5
IT has nothing to do with that. 5 mins, 40 mins, whatever.
The point is that there is no way in hell that the current telco infrastructure (due to monopoly) could support a majority of their customers using their broadband pipe regularly to download 10GB HD movies. They already talk about bandwidth running out and thats with only a small % using bittorrent, could you imagine tens of millions of households saturating their bandwidth downloading 5-10+ HD movies a month? Not in this decade....


RE: But nobody wants discs
By bobobeastie on 1/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: But nobody wants discs
By Christopher1 on 1/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: But nobody wants discs
By rninneman on 1/13/2008 8:19:42 PM , Rating: 2
I love the pinheads that think that transcoding HD movies to Divx, H.264, etc to conserve space means they'll look the same. What do you think just about all HD movies are encoded with? (VC-1 or MPEG-4 AVC which is H.264) This is not the same as transcoding MPEG-2 DVDs to H.264. If you don't mind sacrificing lots of picture quality to store HD in less space, just use regular DVDs and up-convert; it will look the same or better.


RE: But nobody wants discs
By Lazarus Dark on 1/14/2008 1:25:20 AM , Rating: 2
Definately. If you want HD, you should be looking for less lossy compression, not more. HD-DVD/Bluray is already compressed as much as you would want. If anything, in the future we should be looking at lossless video compression, especially if we move to any resolutions beyond 1080p.

As far as disks, well I currently can't fit my whole dvd collection on my TB of hard drive space, even with h.264 transcoding. So, how would I start to fit hd movies on there? It will be another five years before storage is cheap enough to put a large collection of hd movies all on hdd. So if I want 1080p now, I still need optical discs. It's a small price to pay for hd.


Yup
By AntiV6 on 1/13/2008 2:27:52 PM , Rating: 5
Really been thinking of biting off on this deal.

If you add in the 7 free HD-DVDs, the math is basically: $19 per movie and a free HD-DVD player. If HD-DVD dies, it can still be a nice DVD upconverter.




RE: Yup
By retrospooty on 1/13/2008 2:49:18 PM , Rating: 2
The question is, are there 7 HD-DVD movies you would be willing to buy to $20 each. not me.


RE: Yup
By whickywhickyjim on 1/14/2008 11:12:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The question is, are there 7 HD-DVD movies you would be willing to buy to $20 each. not me.


Just in case anyone is wondering what the 5 free movies are (besides 300 and bourne identity) available you can choose one from each of the following groups:
Cat A:
Aeon Flux, Babel, the Italian Job
Cat B:
The Hulk, Pitch Black, The ting
Cat C:
Charlie&The Chocolate Factory,Swordfish, Full Metal Jacket
Cat D:
Firewall, The Frighteners [NR], U2:Rattle&Hum
Cat E:
Black Rain, Darkman, Troy


RE: Yup
By whickywhickyjim on 1/14/2008 11:22:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Cat B:
quote:
The Hulk, Pitch Black, The ting

That's supposed to read The Thing . Lousy Type-os.


RE: Yup
By ImSpartacus on 1/13/2008 3:31:04 PM , Rating: 2
Good idea, but its still going to be a hassle for those 7 movies to be played. But better than nothing.


Not even for free.
By EntreHoras on 1/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Not even for free.
By amanojaku on 1/13/2008 2:48:44 PM , Rating: 2
Then don't bother posting.


RE: Not even for free.
By 1337cookie on 1/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: Not even for free.
By anotherdude on 1/13/2008 5:12:56 PM , Rating: 3
I disagree. I thought all of your posts were outstanding!


RE: Not even for free.
By kmmatney on 1/13/2008 7:30:14 PM , Rating: 2
Ditto


RE: Not even for free.
By SavagePotato on 1/14/2008 11:48:12 AM , Rating: 2
So one shouldn't bother posting unless they favor hd-dvd? is that what you are getting at?

That sounds like a good balanced outlook on things. I wonder, is the hd-dvd official mascot an ostrich?


RE: Not even for free.
By Flunk on 1/13/2008 4:48:18 PM , Rating: 1
Sure there is, if you get it for free you can rent movies until they totally disappear then use it as a DVD player or a footstool.


RE: Not even for free.
By probedb on 1/14/2008 4:36:16 AM , Rating: 1
Personally I wouldn't pass up the chance for a free upscaling DVD player.


HD-DVD is dead
By Serafina on 1/13/08, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD is dead
By sweetsauce on 1/13/2008 8:55:55 PM , Rating: 3
http://nexgenwars.com/

What exactly did ps3 win?


RE: HD-DVD is dead
By cmdrdredd on 1/13/2008 9:27:50 PM , Rating: 3
North America is NOT the only place in the world people buy Video games and High Def media. In Japan and Asia, Blu-Ray is 90% of the market.


RE: HD-DVD is dead
By cmdrdredd on 1/13/08, Rating: -1
RE: HD-DVD is dead
By porkpie on 1/13/2008 9:37:27 PM , Rating: 2
North America is the largest market by far. All of Asia put together (excluding Japan) isn't even 5% of NA HD sales.

And your wrong anyway. Japan is 90%, not all of Asia.


RE: HD-DVD is dead
By The0ne on 1/14/2008 4:06:03 AM , Rating: 1
Most definitely wrong lol. I'm here in China for business and I see stores STILL selling cassette player/recorders :P alongside digital equipments.


RE: HD-DVD is dead
By distant2nd on 1/14/2008 12:39:19 AM , Rating: 1
Actually, Sonyl lost, and PS3 lost. Sony pulled a Nintendo 64 and betrayed their developers. So many more games are coming to the Wii and 360, and so many more games got canceled for the PS3. The core issue is that the PS3 sales are abysmal worldwide, and developers will remember this when PS4 comes out, and they will be reluctant to develop for it. Sony will not be able to recover until the PS5, if they make it that far.


RE: HD-DVD is dead
By mrteddyears on 1/14/2008 11:27:24 AM , Rating: 2
Total fanboy sell yourself down the line and dont go on when you pay big bucks for your movies


free blu-ray player with hdtv purchase
By Armorize on 1/13/2008 5:25:45 PM , Rating: 3
I just saw an advertisement from circuit city that with the purchase of an hdtv you get a free blu-ray player and 5 movies. It's sort of a stiff deal as your easily paying over a grand for a tv, but your saving a lot as your not spending 300-600 for a blu-ray player. It was in the ad for south Florida and I don't know if it was for anywhere else.




By dubldwn on 1/13/2008 9:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
By zombiexl on 1/14/2008 7:12:12 AM , Rating: 2
Depending on the specific TV model it may not be a good deal.


By wallijonn on 1/14/2008 10:02:04 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I just saw an advertisement from circuit city that with the purchase of an hdtv you get a free blu-ray player and 5 movies.


Remember when Circuit City made you buy an HDTV if you wanted a PS3? Ironic, isn't it?


Fire Sale
By bobobeastie on 1/13/2008 3:56:11 PM , Rating: 5
I'm just waiting for the fire sale on HD DVD's. $5.00 a movie at amazon or in a bargain bin, I'm in!




RE: Fire Sale
By Shawn on 1/13/2008 4:19:08 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. I will buy a bunch of HD DVDs at that price!


By pixelslave on 1/14/2008 1:07:14 AM , Rating: 3
I did some math -- let's say each of the 7 HD-DVD costs just slightly more than a standard DVD at $20. That's $140 of value. If you take that out from the price, you are essentially buying an upconvert 1080p DVD player at $24.98. This is actually not a bad deal. I don't care about the survival of HD-DVD, but 7 movies + an upconvert DVD player for a mere $175 is my cup of tea. Here I come!




RE: It's a great deal even if HD-DVD disappear tomorrow
By BPB on 1/14/2008 9:27:15 AM , Rating: 2
I don't want to be rude, but you're the kind of American marketers love. Get something because it appears to be cheap. What you say is only true if you planned on getting the movies anyway, or can sell them for that amount. They're not giving these movies away because people want them, it's precisely the opposite. There's maybe, maybe 2 movies in the list I'd bother to watch, maybe 1 I'd actually buy. So you can say the player ends up being cheap, but not for me. And checking eBay and the like for prices of the ones I don't like, they ain't getting $20. Heck, go to Amazon and see what you can get them for from other sellers New or Used. The prices won't impress you.

I have an HD DVD player (and blu-ray), and I recently purchased several HD DVD movies from Amazon via the buy from others new or used option. I bought several movies from a woman who ships not far from here (so I got them all next day). These $28 movies I got for anywhere from $14 to $17 before shipping. Still well below a $20 average and nowhere near the $28 I see them for in stores.


By wallijonn on 1/14/2008 10:48:53 AM , Rating: 2
I feel the same way about the 5 free BD movies, there is only two I'd really want (and they were both on the same line, so I can only choose one.) I wanted four out of five in the HD 5 free promotion.

I feel that what really did HD-DVD was the lack of BOGOs that BD seemed to have all the time, and the Combo discs which were priced at $39.99. The most I paid for a Combo disc was $29.99. I won't be buying any more. So when Warner says that no one wanted their discs it may have had to do more with their not willing to pay $39.99 for their Combo discs ("Slither," anyone?) Given the choice between paying $39.99 for "Shooter" on HD-DVD or $24.99 for "Shooter" on BD, most would rather buy the same movie on BD since they could always buy the SD version for $15 for their laptops or car. The same went for "Superman Returns".

HDM roughly accounts for 1% of DVD sales. Making 'questionable' movies available on HDM certainly doesn't help. If people are going to "double dip" they will probably only want to re-buy their favourites, the block busters, the very best movies released. What the people want are the Alien, Matrix, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Indiana Jones, Mummy, LotR, Harry Potter, James Bond, Jason Bourne, series movie sets, not "the Jerk" and juvenile humour summer releases.

To differentiate itself from DVD, HDM has to start sabotaging DVD, consciously putting out a degraded and inferior product. It won't be long before DVD movies move to single sided media, or putting 2, 3 or 4 movies on one disc. They may look like bargains but the quality will suffer. If DVD sales numbers are going down it may be because the market is getting saturated, the same as happened with CDs.

Consumers may no longer be willing to pay $22.95 for a 2 disc DVD, knowing that eventually the price must drop to $9.99 (all of the LotR movies, for example.) The reason to buy the $22.95 movies was not because of the extras but rather the lack of movie trailers. Sony took care of that by packaging the very exact same double layered (Full Frame and Wide Screen, or one movie per layer) "Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer" movie in the standard and deluxe versions.

I own a Toshiba A2 and a Sony PS3. I bought most of my HD-DVD movies at retail prices, but I bought most of my BD movies at half price. I am not convinced that BD is the superior product (not after playing "Resident Evil: Extinction" and having to tweak, tweak, tweak my settings until I got rid of the posterisation, to replicate what I saw in the theatre.) Sometimes BD is too sharp and I was not able to play the Super Bit version of "The Fifth Element" on the PS3, (it produced a dozen vertical bars), but it played fine on the Toshiba. I've had better luck with other Super Bit movies playing on the PS3, though.

It would seem that this past holiday season it wasn't a matter of which was the superior product but rather whether to buy the cheaper machine and pay a higher price for the movies, or buy the more expensive machine and pay a cheaper price for the movies.


Both formats obsolete - soon?
By kservall on 1/14/2008 4:53:57 AM , Rating: 2
BluRay vs HD DVD? Maybe not, according to the following column by Lucas Mearin in Computerworld.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?com...

Take a read, and the rest falls into place, at least for me.




RE: Both formats obsolete - soon?
By Axbattler on 1/14/2008 6:17:20 AM , Rating: 2
That's a line of thought some people had for a while. For my 2Mbit DSL though, or the download cap that many people in the UK are restricted to, even a dual-layer DVD takes longer than ideal to download to whatever cheap storage is available.

Sure there are lossy compression that does a fair job at what they do. But it's still lossy nonetheless. For someone who claims that upsampled DVD is just as good as HD-DVD/BD for on a screen under 46", it may be fine, but I am not alone who would dispute that claim. Now whether I am willing to pay the current price for proper HD is another matter - I've yet to go either BD or HD-DVD.


RE: Both formats obsolete - soon?
By s12033722 on 1/14/2008 3:41:53 PM , Rating: 2
Nope. It's a nice thought and a model I'd love to see, but there's a few problems.

First, he is putting the storage requirements for a hi-def movie at 2 GB (see his 16 movies on a 32 GB thumb drive comment). That is beyond silly - if they could do a decent hi-def movie using that small an amount of storage, why bother with new formats? DVD can hold over 2x that. The only way to get to 2 GB is to highly compress the movie, which results in loss of detail. Now why are people buying hi-def movies and players? Oh yeah, to get more detail... Pure genius there.

Second, there is the issue of bandwidth. Even when I had FIOS I could pull down about 3 MB/sec. Figure 5 GB for a hi-def movie and sound, and that will take 27 minutes. I can easily go to blockbuster in less than that time and pick up multiple movies. Now, factor in that most people have cable or DSL and are running at 1/3 to 1/5 the bandwidth of FIOS and that the infrastructure doesn't exist to deliver that much bandwidth to every customer anyway, and his comments start to look even sillier.


marketing 101
By xbbdc on 1/13/2008 3:06:19 PM , Rating: 3
toshiba and HD DVD need to know how to market their goddamn product.

everytime a blu-ray commercial comes on, the ad itself is what makes it sell.

how many blu-ray commercials have you seen compared to hd-dvd? the marketing is killing hd-dvd because they have shit for brains about it!




RE: marketing 101
By rudy on 1/13/2008 4:39:58 PM , Rating: 2
I agree toshiba will lose this game because they did not take a big risks like sony did. Sony sacrificed their console to push BR. Sony lost hundreds of dollars per console to do that. Toshiba should have been selling HD DVD players at a similar loss early on to take a big early lead and they should have given M$ HD DVD players for free to get them in the XBOX. Toshiba also should have pushed hard to get into the PC and laptop market ahead of sony. Overall Toshiba sat back trying to minimize losses even though they knew sony had the big advantage of owning so much of the movie industry and having the PS3. They also should have slammed the world with commercials making HD DVD the brand name. On the other hand Toshiba has never been a big vocal company in the world of ads they are a player who sits in the back and makes hardware mostly. Decent priced laptops and so on. Where sony has always been the big hype machine only beat by someone like apple.


you call this a fire sale.
By edved on 1/13/2008 5:41:02 PM , Rating: 3
It may be just me, but $20 off a unit doesn't constitute a fire sale! Perhaps if they were selling for 50 bucks, that would be different.

Already own both a blu and HDDVD player, but given a chance, I would buy a Toshiba A35 for $200.00 if I could find one at that fire sell price. Unfortunately, just not there yet.




RE: you call this a fire sale.
By zombiexl on 1/14/2008 7:14:17 AM , Rating: 2
The MSRP dropped overnight (on saturday i saw it online and sunday in stores). $20 is off the new MSRP. The MSRP for the A3 used to be $299.


Could be trying to fight back...
By Comdrpopnfresh on 1/13/2008 7:13:53 PM , Rating: 3
... Or getting rid of inventory...




By Saywhatnow on 1/13/2008 8:20:09 PM , Rating: 2
Thats what I thought when I saw the title of the article too.
Are they dumping stock while they can still get any kind of money for it, or are they still putting up a fight?

I wonder what would happen if M$ were to suddenly announce that all new 360s come standard with an HD-DVD drive..


By MagnumMan on 1/13/2008 8:38:10 PM , Rating: 2
They know if everyone suddenly switches to Blu-Ray that they will not sell any more players in inventory. This is a smart decision on their part to empty out inventory BEFORE the end, so they don't get stuck with a huge write-off.




By masher2 (blog) on 1/13/2008 9:42:03 PM , Rating: 1
Toshiba is still producing HD-DVD players at full capacity. Trying to position this as a move to "empty out inventory" is simply incorrect.


By TheDoc9 on 1/14/2008 11:08:30 AM , Rating: 2
I'm curious as to how you could know this without visiting the factory. There have been no press releases regarding there capacity that I am aware of.


Lack of advertising...
By Noya on 1/13/2008 2:48:47 PM , Rating: 2
...I recall reading that HD-DVD was going to put on an advertising blitz last holiday season with sales, commercials and print ads. I only recall seeing the $100 players.

Compared to BD, which had/has TV spots, lots of magazine ads, and 90% of CircuitCity/BestBuy prints...add in that Joe 6-Pack (90%+ of US consumers) gets their tech "info" from ads (along with the PS3), is it any wonder that HD-DVD is going down?




RE: Lack of advertising...
By killerroach on 1/13/2008 3:46:45 PM , Rating: 2
I've seen the ads on TV... the Shrek ones are actually pretty good. That being said, compare them in volume to the number of Blu-Ray ads, and it's not even close.


By Shadowmaster625 on 1/14/2008 4:41:01 PM , Rating: 1
You have market forces driving one format, you have big money driving the other format. It's obvious which one is which.

The only relevant fact is that with millions of crapstation 3's on the market, blu-ray's market share should be at well over 90%. So why isnt it? Because its a junk format. That is the ONLY explanation. Market forces have chosen HD-DVD. Idiot fanbois and big money have chosen blu-ray. Who in their right mind would turn down an upconverting DVD player for about a hundred bucks? Why? To go and blow $300 on features they will never use? Like phantom bonus capacity? lol

$100 HD-DVD player with 7 HD movies is a good deal. Blu-ray cant touch it. The studios are taking a very stupid bet, and they will lose a LOT more money than toshiba. It wont be long before HD-DVD players are $50. And what then? A $50 upconverting DVD player that can play HD movies... except none of the studios will support it? LOL just think for a moment how absurd that sounds. Of course they will support it. They may be stupid (as evidenced by the existence of this format war in the first place) but they arent that stupid. The war doesnt even begin until the price gets under $69....




By Belard on 1/15/2008 1:19:44 AM , Rating: 2
When the Toshiba A3 for $50 in the next few months, it's because its being sold as a DVD player and the retailer wants to unload them. I think some HD-DVD owners will buy an extra one perhaps.

Toshiba is sellng them at a LOSS... even at $200... much less $100.

Marketing forces and big money are both in Blu-Ray, sorry.


another dieing format hd dvd
By KamiXkaze on 1/13/2008 3:07:37 PM , Rating: 2
Seems to me that toshiba will release what's left of there player and soon within a year or so start making hybrid player.

KxK




fire sale
By zoltec on 1/13/2008 6:57:13 PM , Rating: 2
That's still about 300 bucks here in oz, and for something that will be obsolete in a few months it would be a waste of money for sure. I'll wait a year or two till the new generation bluerays come out and the present ones are 30 bucks each.




By iFX on 1/13/2008 7:40:35 PM , Rating: 2
Then I might be interested.

Otherwise, no thanks. I will continue to wait, as regular DVD is fine for me.




Bestbuy & Circuit City Join in
By ChiefNuts on 1/13/2008 8:45:20 PM , Rating: 2
Movie costs
By Axbattler on 1/14/2008 4:46:25 AM , Rating: 2
It's nice that HD-DVD players have generally been cheaper than BD players, but I think they should have been more aggressive at making HD-DVDs more affordable than BD: after all, wasn't one benefit of HD-DVD media being comparatively cheaper to produce because existing DVD machinery could be retooled for HD-DVD production? Well, whatever saving they made from it certainly was not passed on to the consumers here in the UK: the price of the movies are more or less the same. Blank media wise, BD-R is actually cheaper per GB (sure it's still too expensive, but I would've expected HD-DVD to be more competitive there).

Granted, for some movies, the HD-DVD version is actually better. But if you can have a product that's better and cheaper (I don't mean just the players), then it would've improved their attractiveness. Actually, if they could've had a limited promotion where buyers could trade in their DVDs for the HD-DVD version with purchase of HD-DVD players or at very low cost, I reckon that they would've been in a more advantageous position (can't speak for the US, but I don't recall any large scale promotion here in the UK - if anything, walking in a high street store you'll see BD advertised together with the PS3). It would've cost them a lot, but people who were on the fence probably would've been more willing to make the jump if they could have some of their old libraries updated for little.




By halcyon on 1/14/2008 6:20:22 AM , Rating: 2
- boot up in 5 seconds, (not 30-50 like now)
- were region free for dvd playback (or hackable)
- were silent (whirr-whirr, dvd playback is not very silent)
- were more reliable (nice hex codes on display with rental discs)

I wouldn't recommend picking these up as dvd players. Oppo or a cheap Panny is a mucho better choice.




GO HD DVD
By madpear on 1/14/2008 2:07:01 PM , Rating: 2
C'mon HD DVD owners let's buy and show them we are going to win!




Blu-Ray Fire sale - A better deal
By Belard on 1/15/2008 1:15:32 AM , Rating: 2
Starting this past weekend, both Panasonic and Sharp are including FREE Blu-Ray players with the purchase of a new 1080p TV ($1500~3000). The deal still includes 5 free movies (avg value = $25 each / $125 total).

That is a sweet deal, if you're going to buy a NEW TV anyway - it's going to sell quite a bit!

This is advertised in both Best Buy and Circut City.

Several companies have promoted $300 BR players... as more BR players are made - the lower the costs to manufacture will happen.

Toshiba is having a fire sale to either (A) grab as much market share as they can to maybe sway the studios or (B) dump their inventory and say "sorry, we're not making HD-DVD anymore" - because when Paramount or Universal switch to BR, there will be even less reasons to buy HD-DVD player or titles.

To drop $400 off the price of players so quickly is a desperate measure. I doubt it will work.

I notice that Costco is selling the Toshiba D3 (Renamed A3) for $130 off the shelf with 300 & Borne Idenitiy. Not a bad price... I'm not buying it... even if it was $50. So my position? I won't buy BluRay any time soon until they are under $200... but I won't invest in a dying format.

Reading some reviews about Toshiba players on Amazon - a few people posts that even with BRAND NEW discs, they have to clean them before the player will read them correctly, even after a firmware update.

Blu-Ray has about 75% of the movie studio market. There are 8 brands selling BR player. The BR name helps prevents the easily confused from buying HD-DVD discs and finding out they don't work on their DVD players. And at least this week or so, you get a free BR player with a TV.




By vladd on 1/15/2008 2:26:04 AM , Rating: 2
You can all imagine by year-end, when computer optical units will get <$200 of even <$150, some millions of PS3s, Toshiba STBs or XBOXs will not really make a difference..

And my premonition is those computer units will be combos.




the facts
By areyoustupid on 1/15/2008 3:52:16 PM , Rating: 2
the video industry is led by the average consumer. early adopters help drive the influences of other the other people. However, price is a considerable factor in the mainstream consumers. Some of you say that people would want to spend the $150 for an "expensive DVD player with no content in the future" however, the 'war' is not over yet and there is a chance the Blu Ray could ultimately end up being the dead technology.
The recently "shake up" of the Warner Bros announcement did scare people, but keep in mind that:

1) rumors of money possibly changed hands to make this decision which means, it could happen again.

2) Universal and Paramount are still behind HD DVD and have both public made statements that they have no intention to switch.

3) Microsoft is still backing HD DVD and has publicly stated that if will NOT create a Blu Ray drive for the 360, unless Blu Ray becomes the standard and HD DVD has disappeared. It is actually in the best interest of Microsoft for HD DVD to survive and win, otherwise there will be an increased number of PS3's sold, due to people who do gaming that have had no reason to buy a PS3 because it was more expensive or already had a 360, but now, if they want a blu ray player, you might as well buy a PS3 because it is built in, right? Granted that only affects a certain target market, considering the mainstream consumer, if forced to buy a blu ray player, would most likely buy a stand alone player, because they have no use for a gaming console. So Microsoft and Toshiba have money and money exchanging hands seems to drive the war at this point. Sony can afford to loose a lot of money on this, especially since they have already taken a big loss in the production of PS3 since their entrance into the market.
If another studio, such as Lionsgate or Disney were to switch to HD (which is possible, since the licensing rights are less on HD DVD that Blu Ray, the safety of Sony's digital rights management have been compromised, and money possibly exchanging hands again), the tables start to tip back, combined with HD DVD players at an afforable price.

The mainstream consumer doesn't not move to an upgraded technology unless it feels it is afforable. The DVD standard was created in 1995 and had market presence by 1997. The DVD market didn't overcome the VHS marketshare until June 15, 2003, and the difference between VHS to DVD was substantially more significant that DVD to HD DVD or DVD to Blu Ray. A 6 year process . Furthermore, the use of HDTV is required in order to really see the benefits of HD movies. That being said, there are still many cosumers that have not gotten an HDTV.

And unfortunately, if HD DVD fails, the mainstream consumer is forced to go to Blu Ray if they want HD movies, but since the cost of the players have not changed much, HD movies on a disc may very likly get passed over, because mainstream consumers are not willing to pay 300-400 dollars for a Blu Ray player.

By the way, if you think that there isn't a chance that Warner Bros would switch back to HD DVD, you are wrong. There is always someone else there to fire that person who made the decision to switch to Blu Ray exclusively. And there is always a bigger, better deal.
There are rumors floating around that Warner Bros is waiting to see the impact of their decision on the increased sales of stand alone Blu Ray players, as well as the sale of their current movies in both formats, which is why they are waiting to officially cut HD DVD support until May. Keep in mind, we have no idea about what the contracts say, especially the stipulations. It's business. Until one format has conceded, it is anyones game.




By gibhunter on 1/14/2008 9:27:48 AM , Rating: 1
HD-DVD is dead and all this posturing is there simply to get rid of their remaining inventory before they switchover to blue-ray.




Enthusiest is a niche market
By tastyratz on 1/14/08, Rating: 0
Sony's counter-fire sale
By distant2nd on 1/14/08, Rating: -1
RE: Sony's counter-fire sale
By tastyratz on 1/14/08, Rating: 0
RE: Sony's counter-fire sale
By wempa on 1/14/2008 5:29:57 PM , Rating: 2
I'd like to know your source that the PS3 is easier to develop for than the 360. Everything I've read has said the exact opposite. PS3 games have gotten pushed back more often. The developers have complained how difficult the Cell processor is to program. Also, most games are first developed for the 360 (NOT the PS3) and then ported to the PS3. That's why so many of the same titles play way better on the 360 than the PS3. Granted, the PS3 is gaining ground and doing much better, but your comment about the PS3 being easier to develop is way, WAY off.


RE: Sony's counter-fire sale
By sweetsauce on 1/14/2008 6:57:06 PM , Rating: 2
Misinformation at its finest. Wheres the FUD guy when you need em. FUD FUD FUD


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