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Smart Fortwo Coupe and Cabriolet.

Smart Fortwo EuroNCAP crash testing.  (Source: EuroNCAP)
Smart's Fortwo proves to be a big hit with consumers

With gas prices comfortably past the $3.00 mark in most regions of the United States, many drivers and auto manufacturers are looking for ways to consume less gas. Drivers are looking to cut down on unnecessary trips and turning their attention to more fuel efficient offerings when it comes time to purchase a new vehicle.

Auto manufacturers -- for their part -- are trying to accommodate the eco-conscious consumers with efficient gasoline engines, turbo-diesel engines, and a vast array of hybrids.

The Smart Fortwo, however, doesn't use expensive turbo-diesel engines or a hybrid powertrain to achieve its fuel economy numbers. Instead, its diminutive dimensions, extremely light curb weight (1,804 lbs), and tiny 1.0-liter (70 HP) engine allow it to return fuel economy numbers of 33 MPG city/40 MPG highway.

The similarly-priced Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris achieve ratings of 28/34 and 29/36 respectively. Those vehicles, however, look like giants compared to the Fortwo. The Smart Fortwo measures just 106.1" from bumper to bumper -- to put this into perspective, the Fortwo would fit within the wheelbase of a 2008 Toyota Camry. Likewise, the vehicle is only 61.3" wide -- five inches narrower than a Mini Cooper.

The diminutive dimensions allow the Smart Fortwo to fit into tight spaces that other seemingly "small" vehicles wouldn't dare venture. Parking space too small? Just park head first up against the curb. The Fortwo makes compact parking spaces at malls look like an exercise in excess.

The Smart Fortwo's small size and miserable performance numbers (60 MPH is reached is achieved in a lethargic 14.1 seconds from a standstill) hasn't stopped people from lining up to purchase the vehicle. Penske Automotive Group (PAG), the U.S. importer for the Smart Fortwo, reports that the vehicle has surpassed all sales expectations. Over 15,000 Fortwos were originally projected to be sold in 2008, but Penske is now on track to receive 25,000 units this year -- all of which are spoken for. Penske says that he could sell 40,000 units if he had the supply.

Buyers are also loading up on options with the average buyer dropping $1,600 on accessories for a vehicle that starts at $14,235 including destination fee.

"This is not a customer who is buying a car because it is cheap," said PAG CEO Roger Penske. "People are interested in its urban friendliness and its fuel economy," he said. "It is the total of what we offer."

Traditional hot beds for "quirky car" sales like New York and Los Angeles have seen booming sales for the vehicle. Cities not typically known for their hip car culture are also seeing lots of interest. "In Pittsburgh and places like that, the dealers are dying for the cars," added Penske.

Drivers used to driving "normal" family sedans or SUVs may balk at the idea of a tiny "tin can" vehicle roaming the streets, but it appears that many buyers are willing to put up with the downsides in order to make a statement.



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HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 12:09:10 PM , Rating: 2
I just got back from a road trip from Minneapolis to Chicago and my 370HP+ Dodge Magnum averaged 25.3MPG for the whole trip. Cruise at 73MPH the majority of the trip, except for when I was cruising around downtown Chicago or beating up German cars on the highway. I carried two passengers, luggage, a dresser, and a desk on the way down (all inside) and three passengers, luggage, and boxes of stuff on the way back.

I'm very pleased!




RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Falloutboy on 3/25/2008 12:16:15 PM , Rating: 3
there is a big difference between good highway MPG and good city driving MPG, I bet in stop and go traffic your lucky to break 18 with that car.

These cars have there place but tbh they are too expensive for what they are. They don't get THAT great of gas mileage for what you give up. if they costed 9-10 grand and they brought the Diesel model over which gets significantly better millage they may have something until then we just have another gimmick car like the mini or bug, will sell well for a few years and then sales will die off, after its not the "cool" new thing.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By daftrok on 3/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By jamdunc on 3/25/2008 12:45:23 PM , Rating: 5
Are you completely stupid? Did you do anything other than look at 1 picture?

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/smart_fortwo_2007/30...

Go there and actually look at that. The car is built very well and gives good crash protection. We actually have very stringent standards over here in Europe which is why we have EuroNCAP.

And to be honest, you've more chance of surviving a crash in this at 60mph than a Chrysler Voyager:

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/chrysler_voyager_200...

Funny that isn't it!


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By mdogs444 on 3/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:30:21 PM , Rating: 5
I'd rather avoid the accident in a light and nimble vehicle with stopping distance less than 3 football fields thanks anyway.

Pickups and SUVs have a much higher rate of single-car fatalities by the way (roll-overs, mostly).


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By HrilL on 3/25/2008 9:12:55 PM , Rating: 2
That probably has a lot to do with people doing a lot more daring things in those vehicles then people would do in other cars. I've been hit before and so has my dad's work truck. I have a SUV and the car that hit me was crumpled up and my bumper had a small dent and a scratch. Same goes for my Dad's truck the person had to get a tow truck because they crushed their front into their wheels and my dads back was completely fine nothing even wrong with it. since its already all scratched from rocks and what not since he is a stone mason.

Anyway back to my original point. We are talking about crashing not turning too fast to roll your vehicle over as you have pointed out. In crashes people with Trucks and SUVs tend to survive more.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By zhaltees on 3/26/2008 4:33:48 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah. And SUV's tend to kill pedestrians much more... Though who cares about the pedestrians.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By mkrech on 3/26/2008 11:48:18 AM , Rating: 1
LOL your funny
Tell you what, you stand in front of this little POS and let it hit you. I'll just choose to stay out of the path off the SUV which is much easier to see anyway. Then, I'll send a nice little flower arrangement to your funeral.

Imagine just how hard a NFL linebacker can hit you at a full run. Now, understand that this vehicle weighs at least 6 times as much and is almost certainly traveling faster than the linebacker can run. Even a bicyclist can seriously hurt a pedestrian... the only way to protect pedestrians is to avoid collisions completely. To that end, the SUV is easier to see and so I would expect less injuries and fatalities from the SUV's


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By JAB on 3/26/2008 10:44:23 AM , Rating: 5
SUV owners just don't understand about crumple zones and rollovers. You want the car to absorb the impact instead of your head as it hits the windshield full speed or the undampened energy ramming your chest through the steering column(or vice versa on some American death traps.) I have seen the seats ripped out of the floor when these "big is safe" people failed to notice everyone else had stopped and rammed something at full highway speed.

I work in a trauma center there are just an amazing number of people in SUV's that never even got around to to break when they hit something. I don't consider snarfing down a super sized value meal wile talking on the cell to be daring. Size is no replacement for intelligence - that applies to in design too.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By GlassHouse69 on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 10:58:45 AM , Rating: 2
Either you have no idea what your talking about, or that this is a stupid troll....

But all else equal, occupants in a heavier car will survive more than occupants in a lighter car. No question.

That is assuming all other factors are equal, so it's not appropriate to compare any two specific cars without actual crash results, since there are so many other factors involved in a crash scenario. But your original assertations are just plain idiotic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By kenji4life on 3/27/2008 7:44:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
But all else equal, occupants in a heavier car will survive more than occupants in a lighter car. No question.


That's all fine and dandy in the land where physics no longer exists as we know it, but here on Earth we have to be realistic.

Truck vs Tree: Winner: Tree
Camry vs Metro: Winner: Camry
SUV vs Pinto (rear end collision ohnoes!): Winner: SUV (if they aren't killed by shrapnel)
SUV vs Semi Truck: Winner: Semi
Semi vs Smart Car: Winner: Semi
Semi vs Train: Winner: Train

Mini Cooper + Ford F-150 vs Wall at 40 MPH: Winner: Wall, Runner Up: Mini Cooper. Honorable mention: Ford F-150... Ford F-150?.. Ford? You there?

OHNOES! http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINIC...

As you can see, the bigger they come, the harder they fall. When a 300 pound gym jock (no offense gym jocks, I frequent mine as well) hits the cement, it hurts a lot more than the 175 pound gymnast. Although the gym jock could displace more mass, he is burdened by that mass when it's beyond his control.

If you don't understand any of this, you probably would never purchase a Mini, Miata, MR2, or yes, smart car anyhow.

disclaimer: The cars in my driveway are a GMC Sierra 2500, 97 Toyota Landcruiser FJ-60, Honda Civic, Nissan Maxima, Nissan Stanza, 3 Cylinder Subaru Justy, and the occasional japanpdximports.com RHD Jeep Cherokee for those inclined to deliver mail (free plug).. So I know that I'd much rather be in my Maxima than the Justy, and I'd much rather be in the Justy than the pickup truck or the TLC on the highway. Why? I live in Oregon, and when we do have rain (most of the year) or ice (like right now), I feel much safer in a smaller car than a larger one. The inertia of a PU or an SUV will carry you much more swiftly to your death than a smaller car.

That being said, if I were ever driving my Maxima and got hammered from the side, I'd wish I was in the Civic with it's side impact airbags, not either of the bigger rigs which would ensure my head was smashed in neatly by the window.

But enough about me, continue purchasing large SUV's so that you can go about your way lulled into a false sense of security. I wish peace and safety to all of you, and happy journeys in the afterlife shall you embark before you had planned.
I leave you with this:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/07/video-who-...


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By kenji4life on 3/27/2008 7:49:21 AM , Rating: 2
*typo* 97 TLC should have been 87, and if you don't know, now you know.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/28/2008 12:57:06 PM , Rating: 3
What are you trying to prove? Don't get the intent of your retort at all?

All else equal........did you not get that? All else equal, the object with larger mass will experience less internal stress. Plain and simple, doesn't need an explanation.

Now, all modern safety features can certainly overcome lack of mass and make them safer. But as I originally stated, all else equal....


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By masher2 (blog) on 3/25/2008 1:09:33 PM , Rating: 3
> "you've more chance of surviving a crash in this at 60mph than a Chrysler Voyager:"

Crash tests are performed against a fixed barrier, which negates the mass of the vehicle in the test. Should such a light car be involved in a collision with a much heavier car, however, it's going to sustain a correspondingly higher amount of damage.

In short, no matter how poorly a 4-ton SUV does in a crash test -- in a head-on crash with it, this car will lose, and badly.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By chrnochime on 3/25/2008 1:44:44 PM , Rating: 5
Have you ever seen the crash test between a moving Benz W220 S-class and a Smart? Well in that test the S-class had half of its front crumbled, and while the Smart lost the entire front end, the passenger compartment was not damaged in any way.

Then again saying all this to people who swear by SUVs is really pointless anyway.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By themadmilkman on 3/25/2008 2:53:43 PM , Rating: 4
So what you're saying is that the Smart has a lot less material to use for a crumple zone? I mean, it's great that the vehicle's passenger compartment wasn't damaged, but I have to think that such a wreck is going to put a lot more stress on the driver's body than the same wreck would to the guy in the Mercedes.

In simpler terms? The Merc is designed to crumple like that because it's SAFER to the driver. The lack of a large crumple zone in the Smart makes it potentially more dangerous.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By themadmilkman on 3/25/2008 3:01:23 PM , Rating: 4
Replying to myself. Here's a video I found of an actual crash test between a Benz and a Smart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97f-7ef6SC8&NR=1

Which vehicle would YOU want to be in?

(Hint: the fact that the Smart was THROWN backwards means that significantly more force has been imparted on that vehicle, and by extension, on the driver -- and this was against a mid-sized sedan. The results would be even worse against a large SUV)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ElFenix on 3/25/2008 5:24:51 PM , Rating: 3
shake an egg really hard and then open it up. that's what happened to whatever was in the smart at the time.

there is a reason crash test dummies are instrumented and ratings based on how much trauma the dummy underwent during the crash, rather than on how the passenger compartment looks. sure, you don't want cabin intrusions, but a lack of intrusions does not necessarily mean a car is safe.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By themadmilkman on 3/25/2008 5:38:06 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly. I'm tired of people associating structural rigidity with safety. A structurally-sound passenger compartment is certainly an important part of a safe vehicle, but it isn't the ONLY important thing.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:12:21 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, but at the same time, the force is also exerted in the vehicle flying back. Being shaked in a collision isn't going to kill me.

If that were the case, I would have died a long time ago on takeoffs and landings in a plane.

Now which would you rather be in? A Ford F-150 colliding into another F-150 or inside a Smart car colliding into an F-150. With the retarded ass thought process of some Americans, everyone's trying to drive around in a big vehicle.

Just to let you know...I was born and raised in the US.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 11:03:00 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly.

A 1972 Buick could crash into a brick wall with only minor fender damage. The occupants, however, would be dead.

My father used to lament new cars.."A minor scuff and their ruined." Didn't understand the concept of safety.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By djc208 on 3/27/2008 7:35:32 AM , Rating: 2
Yep, one of my first modifications to my Desoto was seatbelts. Sure the car is a rolling I-beam, but just because the car survived intact doesn't mean I will.

Of course one of my favorite quotes was an antique car owner who was asked if they were concerned about the lack of crumple zones in their old car. His response: "Lady, your car is my crumple zone."


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ringold on 3/25/2008 10:26:12 PM , Rating: 1
There are currently over a hundred posts in here.

That video, for me, ends any doubt that might've been in my mind (not that there was any.)

The "Smart" (lol) car got owned.

This is, however, an excellent car for the target audience. It proves natural selection, even in the modern era, finds a way to work its magic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By slunkius on 3/26/2008 2:07:14 AM , Rating: 2
i'm not from usa, but from your post i imagine that if you want to drive to wal-mart and stay alive, you need a car that was pimped by A-TEAM, with metal sheets and stuff. preferably a big bus


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Bruce 1337 on 3/26/2008 5:23:39 AM , Rating: 2
Ha ha, that would be an amazing. For many parts of the country, you're correct. Where I live, my car looks diminutive compared to 90% of the vehicles on the road.

But I still prefer a car that can avoid accidents rather than something that'll just survive a collision. I'll take my chances with my driving skills instead of leaving it up to Allah.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By cgadragon on 3/27/2008 4:43:28 AM , Rating: 2
Just a note: That mid-size sedan has the curb weight equal to a mid-size SUV (~4000lbs), which is the category all but the largest SUV's (i.e. Suburban/H3) fall into.

I also think many people are missing the ideal behind the Smart car...in an urban setting it allows easier/more parking, as well as more lanes in a given road width. Again, that is the ideal...obviously it would take city wide adoption and much infrastructure change to achieve that.

Finally, following the bigger is safer line of thought we'd all be driving tanks. Being in a smaller, more maneuverable vehicle keeps me nervous and attentive, like we all should be. I don't screw around with (insert favorite electronics, newspaper, fast food here) while I drive.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By nolisi on 3/25/2008 3:08:01 PM , Rating: 2
While a fixed barrier negates the mass of a secondary vehicle in a crash, it definitely does not negate the mass of the vehicle being tested. This is important because one of the more common crash types is a rear end collision. The nose of the vehicle must be able to dissipate the force of the rest of the vehicle in a collision, which it appears this car can do.

Further, while head on collisions do happen, and are more frequently fatal than other types of collisions, they are definitely one of the rarer forms of collision. And usually, head on collisions happen along with extenuating circumstances that make the crash even more likely to be fatal.

On top of that, it seems that the car culture in America is getting smaller and more frugal. The likelyhood of getting hit by an SUV seems to be dwindling.

With that said, I wouldn't want to be crossing an intersection in one of these things when a Hummer decides to run a red light. I'm sure a broad side impact (although infrequent) in one these can't be good.

I will say this, it would suck to get hit b


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By nolisi on 3/25/2008 3:15:37 PM , Rating: 4
One other thing, this definitely won't be used by anyone for higher speed purposes. Even long distance trips are unlikely given its size.

It's domain is the city to begin with. This further reduces the likely hood of a head on collision or getting steamrollered by an SUV.

Now if someone told me they bought this thing for a cross country trip, I'd tell them to get examined.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By oab on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By JoshuaBuss on 3/25/2008 9:28:36 PM , Rating: 1
this is so true. in chicago the majority of cars are very large. those massive infinity and mercedes SUVs are ridiculously popular for some reason.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By DeepBlue1975 on 3/26/2008 4:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
Just two small corrections:

Euro NCAP does not test rear end collisions.
And according to statistical reports I've read, head on crashes are the most likely to happen.
Before reading all those reports, I thought lateral collisions were far more frequent, but according to data gathered by different countries I had to accept the fact that I was wrong in this point.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By GlassHouse69 on 3/25/2008 10:11:47 PM , Rating: 1
you should stick to talking about tech things masher.

the weight of a car has nothing to do with safety of the people involved.

it only effects things when both cars are crap american builds and one is heavier. if they are made intelligently from the ground up without small penis mentality/poor ego strength, the weight differences are inconsequential.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ats on 3/25/2008 10:58:34 PM , Rating: 3
Its not an SUV, but Fifth Gear in the UK crash tested a Volvo 940 vs Renault sub compact. The results were quite enlightening. Basically, the Volvo = death in a head on collision with the Renault. And the odds are extremely high that you could open the door and walk away form the Renault.

It doesn't matter how big a car is if it isn't designed to handle the crash safely.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By DeepBlue1975 on 3/26/2008 10:29:50 AM , Rating: 5
I used to think you were wrong about this, but after reading many statistical data on crashes and several tech documents about crashing (even some videos that are over there in the net...) the facts point that the difference in mass is important in a crash (favors the heaviest one), but even more important is what is called an "incompatibility problem".

This "incompatibility problem" is about height difference. Because of this factor, in a head on crash involving an SUV and any car of your choice, what will most likely happen is that the SUV's bumper will be too high and hence override the crumple zones in the car, negating all of the benefits the programmed deformability could bring to the table.

It is said that by 2010 every new SUV / pick up / light truch made in the US should be built with this in mind, in such a way that a car's crumple zones will be in contact with an SUV's crumple zones in a head on crash instead of having its bumper greeting the car's driver head through the windshield.

Because of this, in a head on crash between an SUV and a car that weighs roughly the same as the SUV, still the SUV will have this kind of advantage, and when a collision between cars with very different weight occurs, the advantage is not so big for the heaviest car (though it is there).

You yes, weight is a factor, but the incompatibility of crumpling zones is even much more important.

Aside of that, when an SUV is involved in a head on crash with another SUV, mortality likelihood is reported to be higher than compared to a car-car collision, and the incompatibility problem becomes a moot point.

That suggests:
by now, about half the US traffic is composed of SUVs, pick ups, and light trucks, so that chances of being in a head on collision with another SUV or with a car are very similar.
But if the current trend of SUVs gaining market share continues, the security benefits of driving an SUV get diminishing returns, and in fact, if most of the traffic were composed by SUVs, chances of getting killed in a head on crash would be higher for everyone, as SUV-SUV collisions have usually a higher fatality ratio than car-car ones, and of course, than suv-car ones.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/27/2008 2:07:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But if the current trend of SUVs gaining market share continues
Actually, the current trend is large SUV sales decreasing and the small SUV's increasing. But, overall SUV sales have never been really high despite what people think.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By DeepBlue1975 on 3/28/2008 9:51:28 AM , Rating: 3
I just said "SUV" in general, not any size in particular.
I think it's pretty logical to assume that most of the people won't be buying Hummers :D

Anyway if SUVs / pick ups / light trucks / sales were to be decreasing in general terms, there would be less compelling security reasons to buy an SUV, as the chances of a car crashing with one of those would start getting smaller, even though for the mighty SUV owners would be an advantage as every single car would rather stay away from them.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:27:49 PM , Rating: 4
of course he's stupid, he's comparing his "Hemi" dickmobile to a modern, ultra fuel-efficient urban vehicle.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 1:41:29 PM , Rating: 5
And you're just as big an idiot. This thing is useless for the majority of American's. We don't want to own two cars for a single person. One to drive to work in. Another to do everything else in. So which are we going to buy?

One that barely fits two people and nothing else but gets good mileage and would be destroyed in an accident. Or one that gets less mileage (hell you don't even have to buy a V8 powered car) and is useful for every day tasks of going to work, getting groceries, carrying luggage, etc and is safer.

I mean a base Civic Sedan gets 30 city(only 3 mpg less) and 40 highway and is huge by comparison. It also costs the same($14,200 for the "Smart" car and $15,100 for the Civic) and is far more practical.

In my mind you'd have to be an idiot to buy one of these "Smart" cars over a typical compact. Not to mention you won't get laughed at as you drive down the road.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Vinnybcfc on 3/25/2008 1:55:22 PM , Rating: 1
Most of your reasons are good - but this car isnt just useless for the majority of Americans it is useless for the majority of anyone.

lol and your ego cant take a few people laughing down the street - Just tell them where to go.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:43:23 AM , Rating: 2
Ya, live in a large city and tell me which one is a breeze to drive. Something as small as a Smart or that Civic.

I use to live in Tokyo and drove around a Daihatsu Mira J Turbo. Before that was a 96 Impreza. I must say, swapping to a smaller car for a city that size was the best decision I ever made.

Better fuel economy, easier to drive, easier to park, easier to get out of my car after I parked, etc.

Main thing I'm getting out of your post is ignorance. Live in more than just one country and then you can open your mouth.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:08:34 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Main thing I'm getting out of your post is ignorance. Live in more than just one country and then you can open your mouth.

I'm glad you liked your small car in the very crowded Tokyo. I like my high powered sports cars, my neighboor prefers expensive Pickup trucks and my other neighboor prefers big luxo Mercedes. My brother-in-law likes his VW Golf.

Point is.......Stop telling others what they should drive! If I want a 65ton gas guzzler Canyonaro, that my right to get it, pay the insurance and gas. Not for you to decide.

I do happen to somewhat agree with FITCamaro, the Smart is not a practical choice for everyone. If your looking for a tiny 2 seat economy car, then the Smart certainly fits the bill. But having owned many sports cars, I can certainly attest that they are not easy to live with. I found 2 seats very limiting, even before having kids. Always had to have another car that was larger. When the family and home came, larger 4 seat car turned into even larger SUV with room for home improvement store trips, sports equipment and towing capacity.

Just as your Daihatsu was a good choice for you at that time, it's not for everyone. Not everyone needs an SUV or large pickup, either.

In the end, it's for people to decide what they want to spend thier hard money on, not for someone to allow what they can buy. No need to live in any other country to know that.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 3:56:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
In the end, it's for people to decide what they want to spend thier hard money on, not for someone to allow what they can buy. No need to live in any other country to know that.
This concept seems to be so hard to understand. Freedom of choice is one of the reasons why the US and other countries exist yet it seems to not be so important to have this freedom. Personally, unless someone comes and points a gun to my head, I'll continue to exercise my freedoms. Then again, if someone points a gun to my head and demands I stop being free, I may just take the bullet.

"It's better to die on one's feet then to live on one's knees."


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By blowfish on 3/25/2008 2:20:09 PM , Rating: 3
Of course he's stupid!

Most Americans are far too fat to ride in a Smart, and suffer a higher risk of death from heart disease than the risk faced by their slimmer European counterparts driving Smarts.

Money talks - wait till gas is over $4 per gallon, you'll see even more small cars on the roads.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ammohunt on 3/25/2008 4:13:44 PM , Rating: 1
We shall see who survives the next global famine. Healthy rotund Americans or disgusting skin and bones Euros.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By knowyourenemy on 3/25/2008 6:50:48 PM , Rating: 5
Define "healthy".


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:46:14 AM , Rating: 2
I'd say Europeans, as they can survive on less food than a 300 pound American. It's the difference between a 20 pound bag of wheat feeding 50 Europeans or feeding 1 American.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:12:04 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the overweight person would have more energy stored (fat reserves) than the "healthy" person, and could stand to go far longer with minimal food before any significant malnutrition set in.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/25/2008 5:25:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Money talks - wait till gas is over $4 per gallon, you'll see even more small cars on the roads.
The same lame argument was used before when gas was $3, $2, and even some people were saying the same about $1 gas. We're ALREADY at $4 gas in California and it hasn't triggered any mass defections to small cars at all. Actually, overall vehicle sales are down regardless of the type. The state lost $300 million in sales tax revenues from new car sales from 06 to 07. 08 sales is projected to go down another 4%. With housing and credit the way it is, people are hesitant to buy anything right now. Ironically, RV sales are at the highest level in 28 years.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By twerppoet on 3/25/2008 8:45:26 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Ironically, RV sales are at the highest level in 28 years.


Not as ironic as you might think. There are other uses for RV's than putting across the country.

I live in mine. Cheaper than rent, and while it lasts a fairly green way to live. Yes, I know, total cost is probably a non-green, but it's to late to consider that. It won't get cheaper to junk it before it dies on it's own.

The RV park I live at has ten spaces. Five of them are filled by contract workers. These people would have to drive forty or more miles a day to get back and forth to work. Instead they move the RV once every few months and drive a fraction of that each day, often car pooling in an employer provided vehicle.

Any rate, my point is that RV's are not inherently bad. Like any tool, it's what you do with it.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 12:41:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Any rate, my point is that RV's are not inherently bad. Like any tool, it's what you do with it.
I didn't imply that they were bad. In fact, I'm doing research on them right now because I plan to buy one. It's just with gas prices, I would've assumed that the RV market would take a hit too but I've read that gas prices aren't a priority with the typical RV buyer.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:04:52 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I agree. This car is 33/40 and the Yaris is 29/36. Frankly I'd go with Yaris because its a 4 door car and doesn't look like this after a crash:

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/7688_large_smar...


Yes, because a Yaris looks so much different after a crash.

http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2005/10/27...

Notice how the Yaris's door and roof is crinkled, the wind shield busted, and even the rear door looks like it's pushed it. While the damage on the Smart is only at the front portion of the car.

Overall the Yaris is safer to the passenger in a collision, but much like any real safe car. It's made to crumple into itself, thus more dmg to the vehicle itself.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ammohunt on 3/25/2008 4:17:52 PM , Rating: 3
Mine will have 21" dubs with mustard all around and Hydraulics. Pulling a trailer with the sound system in it.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By masher2 (blog) on 3/25/2008 7:55:15 PM , Rating: 2
At the risk of sounding old and out of touch, what in the world is "mustard all around"?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 8:19:47 PM , Rating: 5
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By tspinning on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By morning on 3/25/2008 1:45:06 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
if brought over here and sold (expectedly well) all the US would have LA Smog within 2 years


ok, could you just explain to me why europe doesn't have
LA smog all over with country's running ~50% diesel cars
for years now?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By rcc on 3/25/2008 3:39:50 PM , Rating: 2
LA hasn't had "LA" smog in years. It's still far from my favorite place to go, but the smog is much better than it was 20-30 years ago.

However, in answer to your question, while I'm not a fan of diesel (the smell, blech), I understand the economies. Anything that smells like that can't be as clean as they claim. But it'll take another 20 years for them to find out what it's doing to us.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By oab on 3/25/2008 7:10:41 PM , Rating: 2
Have you seen a new Golf TDi recently? The only way you can tell it is a diesel is the idle is a bit rougher, and it says "TDi" on the back.

Modern diesel cars don't really have much of any smell to them at all, and have vastly reduced particulate matter emissions compared to diesels of old.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ratinator on 3/25/2008 2:39:31 PM , Rating: 1
If we are talking Gimmic cars, I would add the Mustang, Hummer, Charger, Viper, Corvette....just to name a few as gimmic cars. The Mustang, Charger, Viper and Covervette offer nothing other than horsepower. The Hummer is an oversided gas guzzling SUV. There are numerous others I can name too.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ammohunt on 3/25/2008 4:55:16 PM , Rating: 2
You're right we should all drive non-gimmicky vehicles like bi-cycles (not gimmicky tri-cycles)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Runiteshark on 3/26/2008 4:00:03 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah you are totally right, I know what you mean!

Mustang : Stupid piece of shit budget sports car! Why does a sports car need 300+ horsepower anyway? I think everyone should drive Tiburons that hardly get 200hp and a piddly 20mpg.

Hummer: Yeah who the hell goes out and goes over bumpy terrain, mudding, or up mountain trails? Screw that crap, cars are meant for the road, not random hills.

Charger: Yeah I know!! Who wants to have a crappy dodge that can comfortably seat 4 and tow a trailer and disable 4 cylinders for cruising. Man disabling 4 cylinders for increased economy, what a gimmic.

Viper and Vette: Again I know! These stupid 2 seater sports cars with over 500hp each (Z06). Honestly, I don't understand why people don't just get Priuses or these Smart 4-2s. People were never meant to have a weekend car to just cruise around in or race.

Lets see, real gimmic cars, ok:

Smart 4-2: Retarded small car that somehow weighs 1700 lbs (I Had a 1990 Mitsubishi Mirage that weighed 1600lbs, with a 80hp motor and its still faster then this heap), and somehow manages to suck in all aspects; acceleration, aesthetics, value, and space. Want something good? Get a Honda, Golf TDI, etc. Plenty of cars get more then 40mpg, and drive like a real car.

Tesla Roadster : You're going to premier the worlds first all electric sportscar. You're all set and ready to go. Oh and ship that out with a "temporary" 1 speed transmission. Sounds like tons of fun.

Toyota FT-HS : A poor car that has the burden of carrying the Supra name, that falls miserably. Think Prius on steroids, everyone knows that its all about getting carbon fiber coated 10kV capacitors now, bolting on bigger turbos and building your motor are so passe.

Nissan GT-R : Hey lets build a wicked sports car, with the first well built VQ Series engine ever (Complete with structural reinforcement, you know so the engine dosen't twist apart). Too bad that the ECU is locked down and Nissan is practically trying to prevent you from doing anything to the car. Way to kill an enthusiast car before its born.

2008 Mitsubishi Evo X : Cool, new body style and everything. Has an all new crappy 2 liter motor that can't handle boost too much without blowing itself apart. Thing forged internals are going to save you? Think again. Have fun dropping 40k+ on your Mitsubishi.

See that? Those are gimmics, the cars you listed actually do have their purpose within all walks, whether it be the people who tear them apart and modify them, to the rich people with too much money that drive them on the weekend, or the people who live around my area with their lifted Jeeps etc to go on hardcore trails.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Omega215D on 3/25/2008 11:24:25 PM , Rating: 2
The thing is that these can be great for congestion in cities like NYC where parking can be a pain but a car this small can fit in many places other cars cannot.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By VahnTitrio on 3/25/2008 12:22:48 PM , Rating: 3
You have to find the semi's rolling at about 77 through that part of Wisconsin and keep behind them and you'll really get great gas mileage.

Plus you could put a Smart car in the bed and probably pull one in a trailer as well and still get 20 MPG.

Sorry, but this thing is just way to small, too expensive for the gas mileage it gets. My sister's Aveo is too small for me, but it costs about the same and gets about 34 MPG, which is respectable especially head to head with the Smart car.

Now if I needed a car that could park in the aluminum shed things might be different.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By wallijonn on 3/25/2008 6:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My sister's Aveo is too small for me, but it costs about the same and gets about 34 MPG, which is respectable especially head to head with the Smart car.


I rented an Aveo. Getting on the highway I had to floor it to the base metal. It was either go nowhere slow or rev the engine as high as it would go. It reminded me of driving a car in the hills of NY State where the posted speed limit is 40 and the shift point is 40 - in which case it shifts up and down like crazy.

I was grateful to get back into my Miata. I once more had power and acceleration. Aveo? No thank you.

I suspect the Smart will be the same way as the Aveo - 15 seconds to get up to 60 mph. The Smart is probably great for city driving, though, since you'll probably seldom go over 35mph. (NYC, Boston, Philly...)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 12:24:45 PM , Rating: 3
Being fuel efficient on an highway is the easiest task that any car can achieve with a driver that is careful. This does not make a car like Dodge Magnum any more superior than other cars. 4900lbs BMW 760Li with 6 liter V12 can go up to 25MPG travelling 70mph on a straight road.

Putting fuel efficiency aside, what is the deal you're making with "beating up" German cars? On the straight line, everybody can put their feet on the gas pedal and yell "Hell yeah power!" and go faster than many other cars. Does that satisfy you? Being fast on a straight line itself is nothing to be proud of if you're a serious driver and want a performance vehicle.

And don't even make me start that all American cars do not have proper handling capabilities like European cars do; they cannot go around corners, they are built extremely cheap, workmanship and quality of interior materials sucks and they have a tendency to start having serious problems after 40,000 miles.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By xsilver on 3/25/2008 12:45:35 PM , Rating: 3
3 things that are going to get americans very heated over - when you criticize:

1) american cars
2) american politics
3) jesus

strike one for u ;)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 1:43:06 PM , Rating: 2
I can take it :)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 2:56:07 PM , Rating: 1
Never said my car was superior to anything, simply stated some facts about my car and my experience in particular.

My "deal" with "beating up German cars" comes from my observation that during my road trip, I was challenged by a handful of Bimmers and Audis and subsequently handed all of them their respective butts. If Hondas and Acuras had bothered to challenge me, I would have said "beating up Japanese cars". I never started one single confrontation, so clearly it's not this car owner with the ego to stroke. They felt superior and they wanted to test, I obliged.

While German cars generally have higher quality components than their American counterparts, your comparison is flawed. My LX-based Magnum shares the majority of its drivetrain and suspension with the Mercedes E-class, which is why it was rated so well above other American cars. My "cheap, inferior, and sucky American car" more than handles its own against many Germans in the twisties. Why? Recognizing the failure of ANY car manufacturer to supply decent suspension components, I have made some significant upgrades and tunes to my brakes, coilovers, sways, and tires, without sacrificing ride quality or spending much money. Go to any Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes forum and you'll see them upgrading their components as well. Stock parts usually always sucks until you get into big $$$.

My car will never be a Porsche, but it will never cost $120,000 either. Are you just upset that I can enjoy burying cars that cost twice as much as mine? Would it make you feel better knowing that a cheaper Neon SRT-4 Stage-2 can destroy me? LOL


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 3:29:54 PM , Rating: 2
get over yourself already.

how many real races have you won? not likely more than zero I'd say.

you're just one of those douchebags who revs his engine at stop lights, blasts off like it's the indy 500 and pumps his fist when he "totally blows the other guy away", when in fact the other guy probably just ignored you like most people ignore teenagers and other looking to "street race".

yeah you're real Fast "N" Furious there pal.

what does any of this have to do with a tiny city go-kart vehicle, we'll never know...


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 3:39:18 PM , Rating: 2
You, again, fail to prove that you're nothing but a gaspedal-happy person who can go fast just because of the 340HP engine. Any person can hit the gas pedal and watch lower powered cars go smaller in the rear view mirror. Again, you're car is a cheap, inferior, and sucky American car, just as you said, and putting 23" spinners and springs that make the car 2 inch lower would not change that at all.

You Magnum is based on the old E-Class, just like the Crossfire is based on the old SLK. 15-year old chasssis in a brand new car isn't exactly superior now is it?

I'd like to see you in a mid speed hammerhead nailing those "Bimmers" - it's called BMW, btw. I'm sure that the car will under-, over- and all-oversteer before it ends up in the bushes.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 4:48:55 PM , Rating: 3
Wow. You guys sure are over-protective of your opinions. Seriously, are you guys always this pretentious? I'm no Mario Andretti, but I'm a damn fine driver, both in Autocross and at the strip. You wouldn't know, of course. You assume too much for such accusations. I have never been and will never be a part of that obnoxious 2F2F crowd. Aside from some occassional pulls on the freeway (no traffic), I leave all my racing on the track, thank you. I'm not looking to die or take others with me.

If you need a $70K car to feel good about yourself, that's great, just don't assume that's how we all feel.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 5:42:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
you can't even keep your story straight.

Not the way you twist it.

" Aside from some occassional pulls on the freeway (no traffic), I leave all my racing on the track, thank you."

At least quote me properly if you're going to disrespect me.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By PrinceGaz on 3/25/2008 6:57:48 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to check the part of your post you didn't underline, the "(no traffic)" bit.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ThisSpaceForRent on 3/25/2008 4:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
Um, I hate to burst your bubble, but if someone came up to you going 80 or 90, they weren't racing you...they were just driving. The only time I ever "raced" someone on the tollway we didn't go below 100 mph in traffic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:33:52 PM , Rating: 2
And your supposed to be proud of that fact?

Take it to the track, no room to race on public roads when others are around.

I know what nickdanger is saying though, there's always some friendly pulls, it's not racing though.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheDoc9 on 3/25/2008 3:15:37 PM , Rating: 2
lol, I agree with the op however. American cars suffer from corporate greed mentality that we invented and now it's biting us on the ass. Case in point, I recently purchased a new vehicle and comparing every german car to American made and theres just no comparison. It's too bad they cost so much here.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 12:56:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
On the straight line, everybody can put their feet on the gas pedal and yell "Hell yeah power!" and go faster than many other cars. Does that satisfy you?


Yes quite. A smaller, nimbler car might handle better, but I tend to have a lot more places where I can put my foot down and go fast than I have places where I can try to do 50 mph around a corner. Besides, American's typically like a comfortable ride. You can't have that and a performance oriented ride. You get either comfort or handling. A well handling car isn't going to ride like a Cadillac. You're going to feel the bumps in the road.

Personally I hate cars that absorb every bit of the road. I like to know when I'm pushing my car and when I'm going over a rough patch.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 1:40:52 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not talking about smaller or nimble european cars are handling better. If you keep the size similar when comparing eauropean and american cars european cars still built better, handle better, use higher quality materials and have fewer reliability related problems in the long run.

A car has to be fun and pleasing to drive if you're a serious driver. Handling is the key here. You don't want a lot of body roll, tendency to understeer or crappy chassis that wobbles like it's going over a waterbed like you see in most of the american cars with few exceptions. Handling is not only important for the fun of the drive, it's also the key element in avoiding accidents. Many car manufactureres here in US are proud to stress that they have 5-star government crash rating an etc. I'm more interested in active safety measures in avoiding accidents, rather then passive safety measures which let you survive after a crash. And only being fast on a straight line and having a crappy chassis like they do in american "comfortable" vehicles would not offer that, period.

P.S. Cadillac is the comfortable ride? They mainly use Saab chassis with softer suspension setting. Try renting a Citroen C6 if you go to Europe. That defines comfortable ride.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 9:57:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not talking about smaller or nimble european cars are handling better. If you keep the size similar when comparing eauropean and american cars european cars still built better, handle better, use higher quality materials and have fewer reliability related problems in the long run.


lol when I read that.

http://www.afkrotch.com/Travel%20Pics/Germany/IMG_...

My car. A 1996 German build Opel Tigra. With around 150km on the dial. The Opel factory is about 5km away from my apt in Kaiserslautern. Guess what's etched into each windshield, on the engine, and other various parts? Either the words General Motors or GM.

This by far has been the worst handling car I have ever driven. It even beat out the crappy 92 Toyota Corolla Levin GT-Apex (J-spec).

Nowadays majority of European cars are either American, German, French, or Japanese. That or a collaboration of them all. Usually seems to be the latter.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/26/2008 11:28:15 AM , Rating: 2
Opel Tigra is based on Opel Corsa, not exactly a performance vehicle now is it? What do you mean by beaten out? Did Corolla Levin go faster on a corner, schikane or hammerhead? Did it go faster on a straight line?

Opel is GM, but it's developed in Germany. Just like Ford's European division. YOur comment that they are american is only beacuse they are American owned. If GM started to cancel all that and gave Opel/Saab the cars from GM developed here in America, noone in Europe will even consider buying them because of their inferiority. They'll be cheap of course.

There are still new cars manufactured here in US with fixed axle rear suspension and leaf springs. How do you expect a car like this to handle on a corner and even consider it safe in a near crash scenario? It'll wobble like hell and possible spin and endanger everybody near itself.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:41:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are still new cars manufactured here in US with fixed axle rear suspension and leaf springs. How do you expect a car like this to handle on a corner and even consider it safe in a near crash scenario? It'll wobble like hell and possible spin and endanger everybody near itself.

I'd like to know what car still being manufactured that has that suspension setup. The only ones I can think of are trucks, which are hardly performance oriented cars and too heavy to cause the spin-out scenerio.
Live axle cars I know of like the Camaro (discontinued), Mustang and Charger all have spring setups, not leaf-springs. The Corvette has composite leaf-springs, but had always enjoyed and independant rear.

More info please???