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Smart Fortwo Coupe and Cabriolet.

Smart Fortwo EuroNCAP crash testing.  (Source: EuroNCAP)
Smart's Fortwo proves to be a big hit with consumers

With gas prices comfortably past the $3.00 mark in most regions of the United States, many drivers and auto manufacturers are looking for ways to consume less gas. Drivers are looking to cut down on unnecessary trips and turning their attention to more fuel efficient offerings when it comes time to purchase a new vehicle.

Auto manufacturers -- for their part -- are trying to accommodate the eco-conscious consumers with efficient gasoline engines, turbo-diesel engines, and a vast array of hybrids.

The Smart Fortwo, however, doesn't use expensive turbo-diesel engines or a hybrid powertrain to achieve its fuel economy numbers. Instead, its diminutive dimensions, extremely light curb weight (1,804 lbs), and tiny 1.0-liter (70 HP) engine allow it to return fuel economy numbers of 33 MPG city/40 MPG highway.

The similarly-priced Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris achieve ratings of 28/34 and 29/36 respectively. Those vehicles, however, look like giants compared to the Fortwo. The Smart Fortwo measures just 106.1" from bumper to bumper -- to put this into perspective, the Fortwo would fit within the wheelbase of a 2008 Toyota Camry. Likewise, the vehicle is only 61.3" wide -- five inches narrower than a Mini Cooper.

The diminutive dimensions allow the Smart Fortwo to fit into tight spaces that other seemingly "small" vehicles wouldn't dare venture. Parking space too small? Just park head first up against the curb. The Fortwo makes compact parking spaces at malls look like an exercise in excess.

The Smart Fortwo's small size and miserable performance numbers (60 MPH is reached is achieved in a lethargic 14.1 seconds from a standstill) hasn't stopped people from lining up to purchase the vehicle. Penske Automotive Group (PAG), the U.S. importer for the Smart Fortwo, reports that the vehicle has surpassed all sales expectations. Over 15,000 Fortwos were originally projected to be sold in 2008, but Penske is now on track to receive 25,000 units this year -- all of which are spoken for. Penske says that he could sell 40,000 units if he had the supply.

Buyers are also loading up on options with the average buyer dropping $1,600 on accessories for a vehicle that starts at $14,235 including destination fee.

"This is not a customer who is buying a car because it is cheap," said PAG CEO Roger Penske. "People are interested in its urban friendliness and its fuel economy," he said. "It is the total of what we offer."

Traditional hot beds for "quirky car" sales like New York and Los Angeles have seen booming sales for the vehicle. Cities not typically known for their hip car culture are also seeing lots of interest. "In Pittsburgh and places like that, the dealers are dying for the cars," added Penske.

Drivers used to driving "normal" family sedans or SUVs may balk at the idea of a tiny "tin can" vehicle roaming the streets, but it appears that many buyers are willing to put up with the downsides in order to make a statement.



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HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 12:09:10 PM , Rating: 2
I just got back from a road trip from Minneapolis to Chicago and my 370HP+ Dodge Magnum averaged 25.3MPG for the whole trip. Cruise at 73MPH the majority of the trip, except for when I was cruising around downtown Chicago or beating up German cars on the highway. I carried two passengers, luggage, a dresser, and a desk on the way down (all inside) and three passengers, luggage, and boxes of stuff on the way back.

I'm very pleased!




RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Falloutboy on 3/25/2008 12:16:15 PM , Rating: 3
there is a big difference between good highway MPG and good city driving MPG, I bet in stop and go traffic your lucky to break 18 with that car.

These cars have there place but tbh they are too expensive for what they are. They don't get THAT great of gas mileage for what you give up. if they costed 9-10 grand and they brought the Diesel model over which gets significantly better millage they may have something until then we just have another gimmick car like the mini or bug, will sell well for a few years and then sales will die off, after its not the "cool" new thing.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By daftrok on 3/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By jamdunc on 3/25/2008 12:45:23 PM , Rating: 5
Are you completely stupid? Did you do anything other than look at 1 picture?

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/smart_fortwo_2007/30...

Go there and actually look at that. The car is built very well and gives good crash protection. We actually have very stringent standards over here in Europe which is why we have EuroNCAP.

And to be honest, you've more chance of surviving a crash in this at 60mph than a Chrysler Voyager:

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/chrysler_voyager_200...

Funny that isn't it!


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By mdogs444 on 3/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:30:21 PM , Rating: 5
I'd rather avoid the accident in a light and nimble vehicle with stopping distance less than 3 football fields thanks anyway.

Pickups and SUVs have a much higher rate of single-car fatalities by the way (roll-overs, mostly).


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By HrilL on 3/25/2008 9:12:55 PM , Rating: 2
That probably has a lot to do with people doing a lot more daring things in those vehicles then people would do in other cars. I've been hit before and so has my dad's work truck. I have a SUV and the car that hit me was crumpled up and my bumper had a small dent and a scratch. Same goes for my Dad's truck the person had to get a tow truck because they crushed their front into their wheels and my dads back was completely fine nothing even wrong with it. since its already all scratched from rocks and what not since he is a stone mason.

Anyway back to my original point. We are talking about crashing not turning too fast to roll your vehicle over as you have pointed out. In crashes people with Trucks and SUVs tend to survive more.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By zhaltees on 3/26/2008 4:33:48 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah. And SUV's tend to kill pedestrians much more... Though who cares about the pedestrians.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By mkrech on 3/26/2008 11:48:18 AM , Rating: 1
LOL your funny
Tell you what, you stand in front of this little POS and let it hit you. I'll just choose to stay out of the path off the SUV which is much easier to see anyway. Then, I'll send a nice little flower arrangement to your funeral.

Imagine just how hard a NFL linebacker can hit you at a full run. Now, understand that this vehicle weighs at least 6 times as much and is almost certainly traveling faster than the linebacker can run. Even a bicyclist can seriously hurt a pedestrian... the only way to protect pedestrians is to avoid collisions completely. To that end, the SUV is easier to see and so I would expect less injuries and fatalities from the SUV's


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By JAB on 3/26/2008 10:44:23 AM , Rating: 5
SUV owners just don't understand about crumple zones and rollovers. You want the car to absorb the impact instead of your head as it hits the windshield full speed or the undampened energy ramming your chest through the steering column(or vice versa on some American death traps.) I have seen the seats ripped out of the floor when these "big is safe" people failed to notice everyone else had stopped and rammed something at full highway speed.

I work in a trauma center there are just an amazing number of people in SUV's that never even got around to to break when they hit something. I don't consider snarfing down a super sized value meal wile talking on the cell to be daring. Size is no replacement for intelligence - that applies to in design too.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By GlassHouse69 on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 10:58:45 AM , Rating: 2
Either you have no idea what your talking about, or that this is a stupid troll....

But all else equal, occupants in a heavier car will survive more than occupants in a lighter car. No question.

That is assuming all other factors are equal, so it's not appropriate to compare any two specific cars without actual crash results, since there are so many other factors involved in a crash scenario. But your original assertations are just plain idiotic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By kenji4life on 3/27/2008 7:44:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
But all else equal, occupants in a heavier car will survive more than occupants in a lighter car. No question.


That's all fine and dandy in the land where physics no longer exists as we know it, but here on Earth we have to be realistic.

Truck vs Tree: Winner: Tree
Camry vs Metro: Winner: Camry
SUV vs Pinto (rear end collision ohnoes!): Winner: SUV (if they aren't killed by shrapnel)
SUV vs Semi Truck: Winner: Semi
Semi vs Smart Car: Winner: Semi
Semi vs Train: Winner: Train

Mini Cooper + Ford F-150 vs Wall at 40 MPH: Winner: Wall, Runner Up: Mini Cooper. Honorable mention: Ford F-150... Ford F-150?.. Ford? You there?

OHNOES! http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINIC...

As you can see, the bigger they come, the harder they fall. When a 300 pound gym jock (no offense gym jocks, I frequent mine as well) hits the cement, it hurts a lot more than the 175 pound gymnast. Although the gym jock could displace more mass, he is burdened by that mass when it's beyond his control.

If you don't understand any of this, you probably would never purchase a Mini, Miata, MR2, or yes, smart car anyhow.

disclaimer: The cars in my driveway are a GMC Sierra 2500, 97 Toyota Landcruiser FJ-60, Honda Civic, Nissan Maxima, Nissan Stanza, 3 Cylinder Subaru Justy, and the occasional japanpdximports.com RHD Jeep Cherokee for those inclined to deliver mail (free plug).. So I know that I'd much rather be in my Maxima than the Justy, and I'd much rather be in the Justy than the pickup truck or the TLC on the highway. Why? I live in Oregon, and when we do have rain (most of the year) or ice (like right now), I feel much safer in a smaller car than a larger one. The inertia of a PU or an SUV will carry you much more swiftly to your death than a smaller car.

That being said, if I were ever driving my Maxima and got hammered from the side, I'd wish I was in the Civic with it's side impact airbags, not either of the bigger rigs which would ensure my head was smashed in neatly by the window.

But enough about me, continue purchasing large SUV's so that you can go about your way lulled into a false sense of security. I wish peace and safety to all of you, and happy journeys in the afterlife shall you embark before you had planned.
I leave you with this:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/07/video-who-...


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By kenji4life on 3/27/2008 7:49:21 AM , Rating: 2
*typo* 97 TLC should have been 87, and if you don't know, now you know.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/28/2008 12:57:06 PM , Rating: 3
What are you trying to prove? Don't get the intent of your retort at all?

All else equal........did you not get that? All else equal, the object with larger mass will experience less internal stress. Plain and simple, doesn't need an explanation.

Now, all modern safety features can certainly overcome lack of mass and make them safer. But as I originally stated, all else equal....


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By masher2 (blog) on 3/25/2008 1:09:33 PM , Rating: 3
> "you've more chance of surviving a crash in this at 60mph than a Chrysler Voyager:"

Crash tests are performed against a fixed barrier, which negates the mass of the vehicle in the test. Should such a light car be involved in a collision with a much heavier car, however, it's going to sustain a correspondingly higher amount of damage.

In short, no matter how poorly a 4-ton SUV does in a crash test -- in a head-on crash with it, this car will lose, and badly.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By chrnochime on 3/25/2008 1:44:44 PM , Rating: 5
Have you ever seen the crash test between a moving Benz W220 S-class and a Smart? Well in that test the S-class had half of its front crumbled, and while the Smart lost the entire front end, the passenger compartment was not damaged in any way.

Then again saying all this to people who swear by SUVs is really pointless anyway.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By themadmilkman on 3/25/2008 2:53:43 PM , Rating: 4
So what you're saying is that the Smart has a lot less material to use for a crumple zone? I mean, it's great that the vehicle's passenger compartment wasn't damaged, but I have to think that such a wreck is going to put a lot more stress on the driver's body than the same wreck would to the guy in the Mercedes.

In simpler terms? The Merc is designed to crumple like that because it's SAFER to the driver. The lack of a large crumple zone in the Smart makes it potentially more dangerous.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By themadmilkman on 3/25/2008 3:01:23 PM , Rating: 4
Replying to myself. Here's a video I found of an actual crash test between a Benz and a Smart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97f-7ef6SC8&NR=1

Which vehicle would YOU want to be in?

(Hint: the fact that the Smart was THROWN backwards means that significantly more force has been imparted on that vehicle, and by extension, on the driver -- and this was against a mid-sized sedan. The results would be even worse against a large SUV)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ElFenix on 3/25/2008 5:24:51 PM , Rating: 3
shake an egg really hard and then open it up. that's what happened to whatever was in the smart at the time.

there is a reason crash test dummies are instrumented and ratings based on how much trauma the dummy underwent during the crash, rather than on how the passenger compartment looks. sure, you don't want cabin intrusions, but a lack of intrusions does not necessarily mean a car is safe.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By themadmilkman on 3/25/2008 5:38:06 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly. I'm tired of people associating structural rigidity with safety. A structurally-sound passenger compartment is certainly an important part of a safe vehicle, but it isn't the ONLY important thing.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:12:21 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, but at the same time, the force is also exerted in the vehicle flying back. Being shaked in a collision isn't going to kill me.

If that were the case, I would have died a long time ago on takeoffs and landings in a plane.

Now which would you rather be in? A Ford F-150 colliding into another F-150 or inside a Smart car colliding into an F-150. With the retarded ass thought process of some Americans, everyone's trying to drive around in a big vehicle.

Just to let you know...I was born and raised in the US.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 11:03:00 AM , Rating: 2
Exactly.

A 1972 Buick could crash into a brick wall with only minor fender damage. The occupants, however, would be dead.

My father used to lament new cars.."A minor scuff and their ruined." Didn't understand the concept of safety.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By djc208 on 3/27/2008 7:35:32 AM , Rating: 2
Yep, one of my first modifications to my Desoto was seatbelts. Sure the car is a rolling I-beam, but just because the car survived intact doesn't mean I will.

Of course one of my favorite quotes was an antique car owner who was asked if they were concerned about the lack of crumple zones in their old car. His response: "Lady, your car is my crumple zone."


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ringold on 3/25/2008 10:26:12 PM , Rating: 1
There are currently over a hundred posts in here.

That video, for me, ends any doubt that might've been in my mind (not that there was any.)

The "Smart" (lol) car got owned.

This is, however, an excellent car for the target audience. It proves natural selection, even in the modern era, finds a way to work its magic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By slunkius on 3/26/2008 2:07:14 AM , Rating: 2
i'm not from usa, but from your post i imagine that if you want to drive to wal-mart and stay alive, you need a car that was pimped by A-TEAM, with metal sheets and stuff. preferably a big bus


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Bruce 1337 on 3/26/2008 5:23:39 AM , Rating: 2
Ha ha, that would be an amazing. For many parts of the country, you're correct. Where I live, my car looks diminutive compared to 90% of the vehicles on the road.

But I still prefer a car that can avoid accidents rather than something that'll just survive a collision. I'll take my chances with my driving skills instead of leaving it up to Allah.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By cgadragon on 3/27/2008 4:43:28 AM , Rating: 2
Just a note: That mid-size sedan has the curb weight equal to a mid-size SUV (~4000lbs), which is the category all but the largest SUV's (i.e. Suburban/H3) fall into.

I also think many people are missing the ideal behind the Smart car...in an urban setting it allows easier/more parking, as well as more lanes in a given road width. Again, that is the ideal...obviously it would take city wide adoption and much infrastructure change to achieve that.

Finally, following the bigger is safer line of thought we'd all be driving tanks. Being in a smaller, more maneuverable vehicle keeps me nervous and attentive, like we all should be. I don't screw around with (insert favorite electronics, newspaper, fast food here) while I drive.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By nolisi on 3/25/2008 3:08:01 PM , Rating: 2
While a fixed barrier negates the mass of a secondary vehicle in a crash, it definitely does not negate the mass of the vehicle being tested. This is important because one of the more common crash types is a rear end collision. The nose of the vehicle must be able to dissipate the force of the rest of the vehicle in a collision, which it appears this car can do.

Further, while head on collisions do happen, and are more frequently fatal than other types of collisions, they are definitely one of the rarer forms of collision. And usually, head on collisions happen along with extenuating circumstances that make the crash even more likely to be fatal.

On top of that, it seems that the car culture in America is getting smaller and more frugal. The likelyhood of getting hit by an SUV seems to be dwindling.

With that said, I wouldn't want to be crossing an intersection in one of these things when a Hummer decides to run a red light. I'm sure a broad side impact (although infrequent) in one these can't be good.

I will say this, it would suck to get hit b


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By nolisi on 3/25/2008 3:15:37 PM , Rating: 4
One other thing, this definitely won't be used by anyone for higher speed purposes. Even long distance trips are unlikely given its size.

It's domain is the city to begin with. This further reduces the likely hood of a head on collision or getting steamrollered by an SUV.

Now if someone told me they bought this thing for a cross country trip, I'd tell them to get examined.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By oab on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By JoshuaBuss on 3/25/2008 9:28:36 PM , Rating: 1
this is so true. in chicago the majority of cars are very large. those massive infinity and mercedes SUVs are ridiculously popular for some reason.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By DeepBlue1975 on 3/26/2008 4:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
Just two small corrections:

Euro NCAP does not test rear end collisions.
And according to statistical reports I've read, head on crashes are the most likely to happen.
Before reading all those reports, I thought lateral collisions were far more frequent, but according to data gathered by different countries I had to accept the fact that I was wrong in this point.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By GlassHouse69 on 3/25/2008 10:11:47 PM , Rating: 1
you should stick to talking about tech things masher.

the weight of a car has nothing to do with safety of the people involved.

it only effects things when both cars are crap american builds and one is heavier. if they are made intelligently from the ground up without small penis mentality/poor ego strength, the weight differences are inconsequential.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ats on 3/25/2008 10:58:34 PM , Rating: 3
Its not an SUV, but Fifth Gear in the UK crash tested a Volvo 940 vs Renault sub compact. The results were quite enlightening. Basically, the Volvo = death in a head on collision with the Renault. And the odds are extremely high that you could open the door and walk away form the Renault.

It doesn't matter how big a car is if it isn't designed to handle the crash safely.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By DeepBlue1975 on 3/26/2008 10:29:50 AM , Rating: 5
I used to think you were wrong about this, but after reading many statistical data on crashes and several tech documents about crashing (even some videos that are over there in the net...) the facts point that the difference in mass is important in a crash (favors the heaviest one), but even more important is what is called an "incompatibility problem".

This "incompatibility problem" is about height difference. Because of this factor, in a head on crash involving an SUV and any car of your choice, what will most likely happen is that the SUV's bumper will be too high and hence override the crumple zones in the car, negating all of the benefits the programmed deformability could bring to the table.

It is said that by 2010 every new SUV / pick up / light truch made in the US should be built with this in mind, in such a way that a car's crumple zones will be in contact with an SUV's crumple zones in a head on crash instead of having its bumper greeting the car's driver head through the windshield.

Because of this, in a head on crash between an SUV and a car that weighs roughly the same as the SUV, still the SUV will have this kind of advantage, and when a collision between cars with very different weight occurs, the advantage is not so big for the heaviest car (though it is there).

You yes, weight is a factor, but the incompatibility of crumpling zones is even much more important.

Aside of that, when an SUV is involved in a head on crash with another SUV, mortality likelihood is reported to be higher than compared to a car-car collision, and the incompatibility problem becomes a moot point.

That suggests:
by now, about half the US traffic is composed of SUVs, pick ups, and light trucks, so that chances of being in a head on collision with another SUV or with a car are very similar.
But if the current trend of SUVs gaining market share continues, the security benefits of driving an SUV get diminishing returns, and in fact, if most of the traffic were composed by SUVs, chances of getting killed in a head on crash would be higher for everyone, as SUV-SUV collisions have usually a higher fatality ratio than car-car ones, and of course, than suv-car ones.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/27/2008 2:07:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But if the current trend of SUVs gaining market share continues
Actually, the current trend is large SUV sales decreasing and the small SUV's increasing. But, overall SUV sales have never been really high despite what people think.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By DeepBlue1975 on 3/28/2008 9:51:28 AM , Rating: 3
I just said "SUV" in general, not any size in particular.
I think it's pretty logical to assume that most of the people won't be buying Hummers :D

Anyway if SUVs / pick ups / light trucks / sales were to be decreasing in general terms, there would be less compelling security reasons to buy an SUV, as the chances of a car crashing with one of those would start getting smaller, even though for the mighty SUV owners would be an advantage as every single car would rather stay away from them.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:27:49 PM , Rating: 4
of course he's stupid, he's comparing his "Hemi" dickmobile to a modern, ultra fuel-efficient urban vehicle.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 1:41:29 PM , Rating: 5
And you're just as big an idiot. This thing is useless for the majority of American's. We don't want to own two cars for a single person. One to drive to work in. Another to do everything else in. So which are we going to buy?

One that barely fits two people and nothing else but gets good mileage and would be destroyed in an accident. Or one that gets less mileage (hell you don't even have to buy a V8 powered car) and is useful for every day tasks of going to work, getting groceries, carrying luggage, etc and is safer.

I mean a base Civic Sedan gets 30 city(only 3 mpg less) and 40 highway and is huge by comparison. It also costs the same($14,200 for the "Smart" car and $15,100 for the Civic) and is far more practical.

In my mind you'd have to be an idiot to buy one of these "Smart" cars over a typical compact. Not to mention you won't get laughed at as you drive down the road.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Vinnybcfc on 3/25/2008 1:55:22 PM , Rating: 1
Most of your reasons are good - but this car isnt just useless for the majority of Americans it is useless for the majority of anyone.

lol and your ego cant take a few people laughing down the street - Just tell them where to go.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:43:23 AM , Rating: 2
Ya, live in a large city and tell me which one is a breeze to drive. Something as small as a Smart or that Civic.

I use to live in Tokyo and drove around a Daihatsu Mira J Turbo. Before that was a 96 Impreza. I must say, swapping to a smaller car for a city that size was the best decision I ever made.

Better fuel economy, easier to drive, easier to park, easier to get out of my car after I parked, etc.

Main thing I'm getting out of your post is ignorance. Live in more than just one country and then you can open your mouth.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:08:34 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Main thing I'm getting out of your post is ignorance. Live in more than just one country and then you can open your mouth.

I'm glad you liked your small car in the very crowded Tokyo. I like my high powered sports cars, my neighboor prefers expensive Pickup trucks and my other neighboor prefers big luxo Mercedes. My brother-in-law likes his VW Golf.

Point is.......Stop telling others what they should drive! If I want a 65ton gas guzzler Canyonaro, that my right to get it, pay the insurance and gas. Not for you to decide.

I do happen to somewhat agree with FITCamaro, the Smart is not a practical choice for everyone. If your looking for a tiny 2 seat economy car, then the Smart certainly fits the bill. But having owned many sports cars, I can certainly attest that they are not easy to live with. I found 2 seats very limiting, even before having kids. Always had to have another car that was larger. When the family and home came, larger 4 seat car turned into even larger SUV with room for home improvement store trips, sports equipment and towing capacity.

Just as your Daihatsu was a good choice for you at that time, it's not for everyone. Not everyone needs an SUV or large pickup, either.

In the end, it's for people to decide what they want to spend thier hard money on, not for someone to allow what they can buy. No need to live in any other country to know that.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 3:56:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
In the end, it's for people to decide what they want to spend thier hard money on, not for someone to allow what they can buy. No need to live in any other country to know that.
This concept seems to be so hard to understand. Freedom of choice is one of the reasons why the US and other countries exist yet it seems to not be so important to have this freedom. Personally, unless someone comes and points a gun to my head, I'll continue to exercise my freedoms. Then again, if someone points a gun to my head and demands I stop being free, I may just take the bullet.

"It's better to die on one's feet then to live on one's knees."


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By blowfish on 3/25/2008 2:20:09 PM , Rating: 3
Of course he's stupid!

Most Americans are far too fat to ride in a Smart, and suffer a higher risk of death from heart disease than the risk faced by their slimmer European counterparts driving Smarts.

Money talks - wait till gas is over $4 per gallon, you'll see even more small cars on the roads.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ammohunt on 3/25/2008 4:13:44 PM , Rating: 1
We shall see who survives the next global famine. Healthy rotund Americans or disgusting skin and bones Euros.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By knowyourenemy on 3/25/2008 6:50:48 PM , Rating: 5
Define "healthy".


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:46:14 AM , Rating: 2
I'd say Europeans, as they can survive on less food than a 300 pound American. It's the difference between a 20 pound bag of wheat feeding 50 Europeans or feeding 1 American.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:12:04 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the overweight person would have more energy stored (fat reserves) than the "healthy" person, and could stand to go far longer with minimal food before any significant malnutrition set in.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/25/2008 5:25:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Money talks - wait till gas is over $4 per gallon, you'll see even more small cars on the roads.
The same lame argument was used before when gas was $3, $2, and even some people were saying the same about $1 gas. We're ALREADY at $4 gas in California and it hasn't triggered any mass defections to small cars at all. Actually, overall vehicle sales are down regardless of the type. The state lost $300 million in sales tax revenues from new car sales from 06 to 07. 08 sales is projected to go down another 4%. With housing and credit the way it is, people are hesitant to buy anything right now. Ironically, RV sales are at the highest level in 28 years.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By twerppoet on 3/25/2008 8:45:26 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Ironically, RV sales are at the highest level in 28 years.


Not as ironic as you might think. There are other uses for RV's than putting across the country.

I live in mine. Cheaper than rent, and while it lasts a fairly green way to live. Yes, I know, total cost is probably a non-green, but it's to late to consider that. It won't get cheaper to junk it before it dies on it's own.

The RV park I live at has ten spaces. Five of them are filled by contract workers. These people would have to drive forty or more miles a day to get back and forth to work. Instead they move the RV once every few months and drive a fraction of that each day, often car pooling in an employer provided vehicle.

Any rate, my point is that RV's are not inherently bad. Like any tool, it's what you do with it.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 12:41:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Any rate, my point is that RV's are not inherently bad. Like any tool, it's what you do with it.
I didn't imply that they were bad. In fact, I'm doing research on them right now because I plan to buy one. It's just with gas prices, I would've assumed that the RV market would take a hit too but I've read that gas prices aren't a priority with the typical RV buyer.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:04:52 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I agree. This car is 33/40 and the Yaris is 29/36. Frankly I'd go with Yaris because its a 4 door car and doesn't look like this after a crash:

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/7688_large_smar...


Yes, because a Yaris looks so much different after a crash.

http://images.worldcarfans.com/articles/2005/10/27...

Notice how the Yaris's door and roof is crinkled, the wind shield busted, and even the rear door looks like it's pushed it. While the damage on the Smart is only at the front portion of the car.

Overall the Yaris is safer to the passenger in a collision, but much like any real safe car. It's made to crumple into itself, thus more dmg to the vehicle itself.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ammohunt on 3/25/2008 4:17:52 PM , Rating: 3
Mine will have 21" dubs with mustard all around and Hydraulics. Pulling a trailer with the sound system in it.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By masher2 (blog) on 3/25/2008 7:55:15 PM , Rating: 2
At the risk of sounding old and out of touch, what in the world is "mustard all around"?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 8:19:47 PM , Rating: 5
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By tspinning on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By morning on 3/25/2008 1:45:06 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
if brought over here and sold (expectedly well) all the US would have LA Smog within 2 years


ok, could you just explain to me why europe doesn't have
LA smog all over with country's running ~50% diesel cars
for years now?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By rcc on 3/25/2008 3:39:50 PM , Rating: 2
LA hasn't had "LA" smog in years. It's still far from my favorite place to go, but the smog is much better than it was 20-30 years ago.

However, in answer to your question, while I'm not a fan of diesel (the smell, blech), I understand the economies. Anything that smells like that can't be as clean as they claim. But it'll take another 20 years for them to find out what it's doing to us.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By oab on 3/25/2008 7:10:41 PM , Rating: 2
Have you seen a new Golf TDi recently? The only way you can tell it is a diesel is the idle is a bit rougher, and it says "TDi" on the back.

Modern diesel cars don't really have much of any smell to them at all, and have vastly reduced particulate matter emissions compared to diesels of old.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ratinator on 3/25/2008 2:39:31 PM , Rating: 1
If we are talking Gimmic cars, I would add the Mustang, Hummer, Charger, Viper, Corvette....just to name a few as gimmic cars. The Mustang, Charger, Viper and Covervette offer nothing other than horsepower. The Hummer is an oversided gas guzzling SUV. There are numerous others I can name too.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Ammohunt on 3/25/2008 4:55:16 PM , Rating: 2
You're right we should all drive non-gimmicky vehicles like bi-cycles (not gimmicky tri-cycles)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Runiteshark on 3/26/2008 4:00:03 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah you are totally right, I know what you mean!

Mustang : Stupid piece of shit budget sports car! Why does a sports car need 300+ horsepower anyway? I think everyone should drive Tiburons that hardly get 200hp and a piddly 20mpg.

Hummer: Yeah who the hell goes out and goes over bumpy terrain, mudding, or up mountain trails? Screw that crap, cars are meant for the road, not random hills.

Charger: Yeah I know!! Who wants to have a crappy dodge that can comfortably seat 4 and tow a trailer and disable 4 cylinders for cruising. Man disabling 4 cylinders for increased economy, what a gimmic.

Viper and Vette: Again I know! These stupid 2 seater sports cars with over 500hp each (Z06). Honestly, I don't understand why people don't just get Priuses or these Smart 4-2s. People were never meant to have a weekend car to just cruise around in or race.

Lets see, real gimmic cars, ok:

Smart 4-2: Retarded small car that somehow weighs 1700 lbs (I Had a 1990 Mitsubishi Mirage that weighed 1600lbs, with a 80hp motor and its still faster then this heap), and somehow manages to suck in all aspects; acceleration, aesthetics, value, and space. Want something good? Get a Honda, Golf TDI, etc. Plenty of cars get more then 40mpg, and drive like a real car.

Tesla Roadster : You're going to premier the worlds first all electric sportscar. You're all set and ready to go. Oh and ship that out with a "temporary" 1 speed transmission. Sounds like tons of fun.

Toyota FT-HS : A poor car that has the burden of carrying the Supra name, that falls miserably. Think Prius on steroids, everyone knows that its all about getting carbon fiber coated 10kV capacitors now, bolting on bigger turbos and building your motor are so passe.

Nissan GT-R : Hey lets build a wicked sports car, with the first well built VQ Series engine ever (Complete with structural reinforcement, you know so the engine dosen't twist apart). Too bad that the ECU is locked down and Nissan is practically trying to prevent you from doing anything to the car. Way to kill an enthusiast car before its born.

2008 Mitsubishi Evo X : Cool, new body style and everything. Has an all new crappy 2 liter motor that can't handle boost too much without blowing itself apart. Thing forged internals are going to save you? Think again. Have fun dropping 40k+ on your Mitsubishi.

See that? Those are gimmics, the cars you listed actually do have their purpose within all walks, whether it be the people who tear them apart and modify them, to the rich people with too much money that drive them on the weekend, or the people who live around my area with their lifted Jeeps etc to go on hardcore trails.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Omega215D on 3/25/2008 11:24:25 PM , Rating: 2
The thing is that these can be great for congestion in cities like NYC where parking can be a pain but a car this small can fit in many places other cars cannot.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By VahnTitrio on 3/25/2008 12:22:48 PM , Rating: 3
You have to find the semi's rolling at about 77 through that part of Wisconsin and keep behind them and you'll really get great gas mileage.

Plus you could put a Smart car in the bed and probably pull one in a trailer as well and still get 20 MPG.

Sorry, but this thing is just way to small, too expensive for the gas mileage it gets. My sister's Aveo is too small for me, but it costs about the same and gets about 34 MPG, which is respectable especially head to head with the Smart car.

Now if I needed a car that could park in the aluminum shed things might be different.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By wallijonn on 3/25/2008 6:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My sister's Aveo is too small for me, but it costs about the same and gets about 34 MPG, which is respectable especially head to head with the Smart car.


I rented an Aveo. Getting on the highway I had to floor it to the base metal. It was either go nowhere slow or rev the engine as high as it would go. It reminded me of driving a car in the hills of NY State where the posted speed limit is 40 and the shift point is 40 - in which case it shifts up and down like crazy.

I was grateful to get back into my Miata. I once more had power and acceleration. Aveo? No thank you.

I suspect the Smart will be the same way as the Aveo - 15 seconds to get up to 60 mph. The Smart is probably great for city driving, though, since you'll probably seldom go over 35mph. (NYC, Boston, Philly...)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 12:24:45 PM , Rating: 3
Being fuel efficient on an highway is the easiest task that any car can achieve with a driver that is careful. This does not make a car like Dodge Magnum any more superior than other cars. 4900lbs BMW 760Li with 6 liter V12 can go up to 25MPG travelling 70mph on a straight road.

Putting fuel efficiency aside, what is the deal you're making with "beating up" German cars? On the straight line, everybody can put their feet on the gas pedal and yell "Hell yeah power!" and go faster than many other cars. Does that satisfy you? Being fast on a straight line itself is nothing to be proud of if you're a serious driver and want a performance vehicle.

And don't even make me start that all American cars do not have proper handling capabilities like European cars do; they cannot go around corners, they are built extremely cheap, workmanship and quality of interior materials sucks and they have a tendency to start having serious problems after 40,000 miles.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By xsilver on 3/25/2008 12:45:35 PM , Rating: 3
3 things that are going to get americans very heated over - when you criticize:

1) american cars
2) american politics
3) jesus

strike one for u ;)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 1:43:06 PM , Rating: 2
I can take it :)


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 2:56:07 PM , Rating: 1
Never said my car was superior to anything, simply stated some facts about my car and my experience in particular.

My "deal" with "beating up German cars" comes from my observation that during my road trip, I was challenged by a handful of Bimmers and Audis and subsequently handed all of them their respective butts. If Hondas and Acuras had bothered to challenge me, I would have said "beating up Japanese cars". I never started one single confrontation, so clearly it's not this car owner with the ego to stroke. They felt superior and they wanted to test, I obliged.

While German cars generally have higher quality components than their American counterparts, your comparison is flawed. My LX-based Magnum shares the majority of its drivetrain and suspension with the Mercedes E-class, which is why it was rated so well above other American cars. My "cheap, inferior, and sucky American car" more than handles its own against many Germans in the twisties. Why? Recognizing the failure of ANY car manufacturer to supply decent suspension components, I have made some significant upgrades and tunes to my brakes, coilovers, sways, and tires, without sacrificing ride quality or spending much money. Go to any Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes forum and you'll see them upgrading their components as well. Stock parts usually always sucks until you get into big $$$.

My car will never be a Porsche, but it will never cost $120,000 either. Are you just upset that I can enjoy burying cars that cost twice as much as mine? Would it make you feel better knowing that a cheaper Neon SRT-4 Stage-2 can destroy me? LOL


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 3:29:54 PM , Rating: 2
get over yourself already.

how many real races have you won? not likely more than zero I'd say.

you're just one of those douchebags who revs his engine at stop lights, blasts off like it's the indy 500 and pumps his fist when he "totally blows the other guy away", when in fact the other guy probably just ignored you like most people ignore teenagers and other looking to "street race".

yeah you're real Fast "N" Furious there pal.

what does any of this have to do with a tiny city go-kart vehicle, we'll never know...


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 3:39:18 PM , Rating: 2
You, again, fail to prove that you're nothing but a gaspedal-happy person who can go fast just because of the 340HP engine. Any person can hit the gas pedal and watch lower powered cars go smaller in the rear view mirror. Again, you're car is a cheap, inferior, and sucky American car, just as you said, and putting 23" spinners and springs that make the car 2 inch lower would not change that at all.

You Magnum is based on the old E-Class, just like the Crossfire is based on the old SLK. 15-year old chasssis in a brand new car isn't exactly superior now is it?

I'd like to see you in a mid speed hammerhead nailing those "Bimmers" - it's called BMW, btw. I'm sure that the car will under-, over- and all-oversteer before it ends up in the bushes.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 4:48:55 PM , Rating: 3
Wow. You guys sure are over-protective of your opinions. Seriously, are you guys always this pretentious? I'm no Mario Andretti, but I'm a damn fine driver, both in Autocross and at the strip. You wouldn't know, of course. You assume too much for such accusations. I have never been and will never be a part of that obnoxious 2F2F crowd. Aside from some occassional pulls on the freeway (no traffic), I leave all my racing on the track, thank you. I'm not looking to die or take others with me.

If you need a $70K car to feel good about yourself, that's great, just don't assume that's how we all feel.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By therealnickdanger on 3/25/2008 5:42:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
you can't even keep your story straight.

Not the way you twist it.

" Aside from some occassional pulls on the freeway (no traffic), I leave all my racing on the track, thank you."

At least quote me properly if you're going to disrespect me.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By PrinceGaz on 3/25/2008 6:57:48 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to check the part of your post you didn't underline, the "(no traffic)" bit.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ThisSpaceForRent on 3/25/2008 4:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
Um, I hate to burst your bubble, but if someone came up to you going 80 or 90, they weren't racing you...they were just driving. The only time I ever "raced" someone on the tollway we didn't go below 100 mph in traffic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:33:52 PM , Rating: 2
And your supposed to be proud of that fact?

Take it to the track, no room to race on public roads when others are around.

I know what nickdanger is saying though, there's always some friendly pulls, it's not racing though.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheDoc9 on 3/25/2008 3:15:37 PM , Rating: 2
lol, I agree with the op however. American cars suffer from corporate greed mentality that we invented and now it's biting us on the ass. Case in point, I recently purchased a new vehicle and comparing every german car to American made and theres just no comparison. It's too bad they cost so much here.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 12:56:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
On the straight line, everybody can put their feet on the gas pedal and yell "Hell yeah power!" and go faster than many other cars. Does that satisfy you?


Yes quite. A smaller, nimbler car might handle better, but I tend to have a lot more places where I can put my foot down and go fast than I have places where I can try to do 50 mph around a corner. Besides, American's typically like a comfortable ride. You can't have that and a performance oriented ride. You get either comfort or handling. A well handling car isn't going to ride like a Cadillac. You're going to feel the bumps in the road.

Personally I hate cars that absorb every bit of the road. I like to know when I'm pushing my car and when I'm going over a rough patch.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/25/2008 1:40:52 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not talking about smaller or nimble european cars are handling better. If you keep the size similar when comparing eauropean and american cars european cars still built better, handle better, use higher quality materials and have fewer reliability related problems in the long run.

A car has to be fun and pleasing to drive if you're a serious driver. Handling is the key here. You don't want a lot of body roll, tendency to understeer or crappy chassis that wobbles like it's going over a waterbed like you see in most of the american cars with few exceptions. Handling is not only important for the fun of the drive, it's also the key element in avoiding accidents. Many car manufactureres here in US are proud to stress that they have 5-star government crash rating an etc. I'm more interested in active safety measures in avoiding accidents, rather then passive safety measures which let you survive after a crash. And only being fast on a straight line and having a crappy chassis like they do in american "comfortable" vehicles would not offer that, period.

P.S. Cadillac is the comfortable ride? They mainly use Saab chassis with softer suspension setting. Try renting a Citroen C6 if you go to Europe. That defines comfortable ride.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 9:57:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not talking about smaller or nimble european cars are handling better. If you keep the size similar when comparing eauropean and american cars european cars still built better, handle better, use higher quality materials and have fewer reliability related problems in the long run.


lol when I read that.

http://www.afkrotch.com/Travel%20Pics/Germany/IMG_...

My car. A 1996 German build Opel Tigra. With around 150km on the dial. The Opel factory is about 5km away from my apt in Kaiserslautern. Guess what's etched into each windshield, on the engine, and other various parts? Either the words General Motors or GM.

This by far has been the worst handling car I have ever driven. It even beat out the crappy 92 Toyota Corolla Levin GT-Apex (J-spec).

Nowadays majority of European cars are either American, German, French, or Japanese. That or a collaboration of them all. Usually seems to be the latter.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By TheWizardofOz on 3/26/2008 11:28:15 AM , Rating: 2
Opel Tigra is based on Opel Corsa, not exactly a performance vehicle now is it? What do you mean by beaten out? Did Corolla Levin go faster on a corner, schikane or hammerhead? Did it go faster on a straight line?

Opel is GM, but it's developed in Germany. Just like Ford's European division. YOur comment that they are american is only beacuse they are American owned. If GM started to cancel all that and gave Opel/Saab the cars from GM developed here in America, noone in Europe will even consider buying them because of their inferiority. They'll be cheap of course.

There are still new cars manufactured here in US with fixed axle rear suspension and leaf springs. How do you expect a car like this to handle on a corner and even consider it safe in a near crash scenario? It'll wobble like hell and possible spin and endanger everybody near itself.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:41:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are still new cars manufactured here in US with fixed axle rear suspension and leaf springs. How do you expect a car like this to handle on a corner and even consider it safe in a near crash scenario? It'll wobble like hell and possible spin and endanger everybody near itself.

I'd like to know what car still being manufactured that has that suspension setup. The only ones I can think of are trucks, which are hardly performance oriented cars and too heavy to cause the spin-out scenerio.
Live axle cars I know of like the Camaro (discontinued), Mustang and Charger all have spring setups, not leaf-springs. The Corvette has composite leaf-springs, but had always enjoyed and independant rear.

More info please???


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:10:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
More info please???
He doesn't have more info. Like most DT kids, he's just talking out the side of his ass.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Chris Peredun on 3/25/2008 3:22:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
FIT you just said you drive a Cobalt SS. My 4cyl '06 Accord can blow the doors off that POS as well as hold a tight corner at 50mph+. And, just to rub it in, I average 31mpg if I stay below 75mph on the interstate.


I don't think seven-tenths of a second is "blowing the doors" off anything.

Especially when you, in the I4 Accord, would be the one looking at taillights.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/25/2008 6:27:33 PM , Rating: 2
The Cobalt SS with the supercharged motor makes about 205hp (actually more than that..the car is underrated). An 06 4 cyl Accord makes 166hp. Cobalt SS makes 40+ hp more plus it's a couple hundred pounds lighter than the Accord.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/26/2008 3:26:52 AM , Rating: 2
The 2.4L Cobalt SS is rated at 171 HP SAE @ 6,200 rpm; 163 ft lb , 221 Nm @ 5,000 rpm, 2,815lbs.

The 2.4L Accord EX coupe is rated at 166 HP SAE @ 5,800 rpm; 160 ft lb , 217 Nm @ 4,000 rpm, 3,155lbs.

The only real difference here is the weight.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:11:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only real difference here is the weight.
Which gives him an advantage along with the slight difference in hp. You STILL won't "smoke" him.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/26/2008 4:39:27 PM , Rating: 2
I was conceding this fact, thanks.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By nolisi on 3/25/2008 3:27:36 PM , Rating: 2
Just curious, what do you define as a tight corner? A typical street right hand turn or something with a longer arc?

By the way, you should have gotten a Mazdaspeed Mazda3, costs about the same, if not less when similarly configured, is only a bit smaller, but much more responsive power (especially torque), and Mazda's gas engines usually return better than EPA estimates (this is from personal experience.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Entropy42 on 3/25/2008 3:40:25 PM , Rating: 2
Since we're talking anecdotal Mazda MPGs, I have a Mazda6 that is rated 20/27 and gets about 22 MPG on a tank with mixed driving (mostly highway). I had 2 tanks of gas that were solid highway driving and got 29 and 30 MPG both times. Cruise at 80 for almost the whole time, AC on, 2 passengers. So the city mileage of the car must totally suck to give me a typical 22 MPG average.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 3:37:42 PM , Rating: 2
Ok and I get 32-33 mpg at 80 with the AC on. Whats your point?

And my average of 29 mpg is city and highway driving. Not just highway.

As far as your ability to "blow the doors" off my car, doubtful. You've got less horsepower and you weigh more. And that's assuming the Coupe, not the Sedan. Regardless, I really don't care. Neither car is fast. You can whine that you've got VTEC all you want, it's still slow. I bought the Cobalt because I was driving 150 miles a day and wanted something with good mileage. I got the 2.4L SS because I wanted a little more pickup than the standard 2.2L.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/25/2008 4:34:54 PM , Rating: 2
OK so "blowing the doors off" may have been a bit of an overstatement. I might have been thinking of it's Cavalier underpinnings. We have a similar engine, 2.4L and yes mine is a coupe with 5 speed manual. The 31mpg is also my combined average, city and highway.

Overall I still find it somewhat funny as I know we have argued in the past about you wanting big, yet inexpensive, high power gas guzzlers and here you are being all fuel efficient in your Cobalt. Driving 150 miles a day will definitely change a person's tune with gas prices the way they are.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/25/2008 6:39:18 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't change my tune although my car gets decent gas mileage. We have a Tundra and a Solstice GXP. Tundra gets 16 mpg and the Solstice gets 28. We bought neither for gas mileage savings. Both exist purely for fun (Tundra tows the wife's horse trailer and the Solstice satisfies my want for a sports car) although both are daily drivers. If our income stays stagnant, then it will take $7 a gallon for us to justify a 3rd car that gets at around 28 mpg for my wife to drive. But I just got a big raise. So much for static incomes. And if statistics are correct, we'll both continue to increase our income so who knows just how high gas has to go before we cry uncle.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/26/2008 2:47:15 AM , Rating: 2
Been a while since my last big raise. Was in late 2000, 30%. Since then it's only gone up a little over 10%. $3.25 a gallon isn't exactly killing my finances but my ceiling is not so high as yours. $7 a gallon would definitely make me cry uncle. Congrats on your success.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:13:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Congrats on your success.
Thanks. 30% is pretty nice raise, BTW.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/26/2008 4:59:57 PM , Rating: 2
Nearly 8 years ago it sure was.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 7:14:04 PM , Rating: 2
I no longer drive 150 miles a day. I still have the Cobalt though because I can't afford another car. If I had my way, I'd be driving a 6.0L GTO or a new Pontiac G8. I'm hoping I'll be able to get a new Camaro in a few years.

My last 4 cars were Camaro's though. The Cobalt was the first and last 4 cylinder I'll ever buy. At least the last NA one.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
It cracks me up when I see two "slow cars" go at it on the street. I call it "battle for the basement"!

quote:
Regardless, I really don't care. Neither car is fast.

At least FIT knows it......I don't know if I've ever heard the words "my 4cly Accord will blow your doors off" actually used in a sentence before. :P


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By MaulBall789 on 3/26/2008 4:50:39 PM , Rating: 2
Glad to provide you that first time feeling.

I'm well aware my ride ain't blazing fast, just amused that Mr. Musclecar drives a Cobalt.

No offense, FITcamaro.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By onwisconsin on 3/25/2008 1:15:14 PM , Rating: 2
If you love them so much, mebbe you should buy him a 7 series?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By djc208 on 3/25/2008 4:03:26 PM , Rating: 2
Well the BMW uses a 6 or 7 speed tranny vice the Magnum's 5-speed, and the overall displacement between the two (5.7 liters for the HEMI vice the 6-liter BMW) is minimal even if the cylinder count is off. The Viper can get 25-26 MPG too and it has an 8+ liter V-10. But that's because 6th gear is super high (0.5:1 I think) so it basically idles at 70+ MPH.

As for handling, well the whole LX platform is based upon a MB chassis, and the tranny is a MB part minus two gears. It does handle fairly well for as big as it is but yes the in-town milage is usually 16-18 mpg.

As for the rest of the "American cars are crap" thing, well that's no more of a genralization than saying that all European cars are overpriced status symbols with horrible repair histories and hideous repair costs. It's that holier-than-thou attitude of European car owners that makes you want to "beat up on them" in our lowly American "crap".

I have two (american) cars with over 140k miles that run great to this day, one still has the original exhaust under it!


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 7:18:44 PM , Rating: 2
Where are you seeing 25 mpg highway for the Viper? It's rated at 22. And 13 city. Now the Vette. It gets 19/29 with the Z06 at 16/26.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By djc208 on 3/26/2008 7:39:59 AM , Rating: 2
Had one of the head of Viper engine design come to college a while back (Penn State Alum) and we were discussing the (lack of) changes in fuel efficiency. The guy had brought his personal Viper and stated he got 26 mpg on the trip from Detroit to PA. This was one of the older second gen Vipers (after the coupe but in the old body style) so maybe the displacement bumps have shaved it off, but I'd guess the EPA cycle doesn't allow much use of the super-tall 6th gear.

As an interesting asside he was saying that when they released the hard-top Viper they did it in two stages so no one would know before hand. Since all their finances for the auto company are rounded to the 100 million dollar level for reporting, they did half the redesign one year for about 50 million which rounded to 0 on the books and finished it the second year for about the same, so no one looking over the finances would know they were developing the coupe model.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 2:06:54 PM , Rating: 2
EPA ratings are just that, a standard rating system to compare fuel efficiency. This in no way implies what fuel economy you will get. Depending on driving habits, you can far exceed this value, or fall far below.

For example, my 07 Z06 averaged about 34mpg on a highway trip, not bad considering it's also supercharged with over 800hp. In town, more like 20mpg, and in traffic, more like 12mpg. On the track, closer to 8mpg.

As an ironic twist, it's the large engines that actually average better mileage in practice than their smaller counterparts for highway use, since the larger torque and lower drive ratio leads to lower cruise RPM's. For city driving, small engines loose less mpg than the big ones.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 1:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And don't even make me start that all American cars do not have proper handling capabilities like European cars do; they cannot go around corners, they are built extremely cheap, workmanship and quality of interior materials sucks and they have a tendency to start having serious problems after 40,000 miles.

Hmmm, then why is the bottom of all recent quality ratings dominated by European brands, with Mercedes dead last, and BMW only a few spots better? BTW, GM still sits #2 on most quality lists, right behind Toyota.

American cars were crap in the 80's, but have come a long way and have surpassed many other brands. Are American cars perfect? Absolutely not, but no car is.

And your quip about handling is off base, too. I've lapped race set-up BMW's (driven by professional drivers) at Watkins-Glen in my base suspension car, so saying that all american cars can't handle is just pure FUD.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Flunk on 3/25/2008 12:26:20 PM , Rating: 2
The smart is really not designed as a highway vehicle, more for inner city commuter runs. For runs including more people or cargo the smart really does fall flat.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By afkrotch on 3/26/2008 6:57:53 AM , Rating: 2
The Smart is designed for European culture, which is significantly different than American culture. Where grocery shopping is buying enough food for a few days, not a few weeks. Also having a small trailer connected to the Smart is not uncommon.

I'm not one for big cars. Don't have much need. Course at the same time, neither do many Americans. I own a 96 Subaru Impreza Coupe (US spec) and a 96 Opel Tigra (German Spec).


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:18:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm not one for big cars. Don't have much need. Course at the same time, neither do many Americans.
Explain why Americans don't need big cars from a point of view that takes into account our culture and lifestyle. Thanks.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 12:37:12 PM , Rating: 4
give us a break pal, 25 aint nothing to brag about. "beating up german cars" oh golly... like we care.
go wave your dickmobile somewhere else. btw "hemi" is 50 year old obsolete technology that's nothing to brag about either.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By flatline56 on 3/25/2008 12:58:25 PM , Rating: 2
The current Hemi is a marketing ploy, which does not utilize the hemispherical shape of old. The modern incarnation is not close to obsolete tech.

quote:
The current-production "HEMI" combustion chamber is not truly hemispherical; it is flatter and more complex than the 1950s-'70s Hemi V8 chamber.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Hemi_engine

Please don't chime in with ignorant opinions


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:38:14 PM , Rating: 1
It's still a hemi, and it still sucks. Why don't you quote the rest of that paragraph (though it's from Wiki so who knows if it's even close to accurate)

"Like most of Chrysler's past-model hemi-head engines, it develops approximately one horsepower per cubic inch ."

Welcome to the 1950s.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By flatline56 on 3/25/2008 1:48:37 PM , Rating: 1
Perhaps you would like to elucidate on the reasn that if the new Hemi sucks, that it was named one of the 10 Best engine designs? The fact that it develops 1 HP per cubic inch is not the only determining factor in the worth of a modern engine. Further, it appears that you are a Euro/Jap auto snob, so it would be crucial to note that this engine was produced by Daimler.

quote:
Returning for its fifth consecutive 10 Best Engines win, the Hemi’s intrinsic goodness and legitimate effort to improve efficiency transcend this year’s fuel-price scare, in the minds of the competition’s judges.


http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/daimlerc...


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 2:06:15 PM , Rating: 1
"traditional V-8 power"

"the Hemi still feels fresh and invigorating – and sounds great"

"Power and torque, the Hemi’s calling cards, remain its most convincing 1-2 punch"

"There’s a place and a need for V-8 power in the U.S., and the Hemi is far and away the best combination of power, affordability and versatility among contemporary V-8s."

So, they say it's good among powerful V-8s, which there is still a "place and need" for (too bad they don't say where that is, which is trucks that haul things, and maybe police vehicles - NOT in passenger vehicles used for commuting and driving around town which is where 99% of them are used).


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Samus on 3/25/2008 2:23:22 PM , Rating: 2
My Focus SVT (ST170 in Europe) has a greater power/weight ratio than every car I've seen named here, and it still gets better mileage, and will likely be more dependable because of its simpler design and smaller, less maintenance-needy engine.

So stop it with your Magnum's and Cobalt SS's already. The Magnum is a Neon on steroids and the Cobalt just replaced the *caugh* Cavalier, possibly the worst car model GM has ever made. I'm aware the Focus replaced the Escort, but when's the last time you heard someone complain about their Escort's dependability?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By ElFenix on 3/25/2008 5:35:14 PM , Rating: 2
what makes you think a high-strung smaller engine is going to be less maintenance-needy than a larger engine?


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By theapparition on 3/26/2008 2:11:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm aware the Focus replaced the Escort, but when's the last time you heard someone complain about their Escort's dependability?

I've personally seen 4 cars catch fire (live in person). 3 of them were Ford Escorts. Just saying......


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By djc208 on 3/27/2008 7:55:08 AM , Rating: 2
Actually most multi-valve engines use a "pent roof" design which is just a slight derivation from the original Hemi and probably closer to the new one.

That said, if you go look at top fuel drag racing the only cylinder head design you will see is the hemi. Lots of monster trucks use them too. For maximum power there's still little better than than the hemi head. The things that make it a good design haven't changed. It fell out of favor due to manufacturing costs in the 50s and a combination of similar problems in the muscle car years.

Ironicly it was brought back because the more complex valvetrain required is now cheaper than multi-valve OHC engines, yet the power output is similar.

Heck if that was the case the pushrod LS engines from GM should be even more obsolete, yet they're consistently some of the best V8s on the market, for both power, cost, and logevity.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By jamdunc on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By mdogs444 on 3/25/2008 12:52:49 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
owhere near the standards of handling and performance of a BMW/Merc/Audi and even a Volvo or a SAAB is better made.

While I'm no fan of Chrysler products at all, I think you should come down off your Euro High Horse and remove Audi from that list. I've had one, and while the A4 turbo quattro has great handling, its a mechanical nightmare. Known issues of engine sludge, timing belt going at 60k miles, temperature sensor issues, and faulty window motors going in 2-3 years, let alone the cost of maintance...the Audi is near the bottom of the book along with many American and cheap cars in terms of reliability.

quote:
So remember, when making an argument compare like for like.

I must be missing your big point here....that comparing a Dodge to a Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, and Saab....hmm. You should probably rethink your own logic.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By oab on 3/25/2008 7:16:35 PM , Rating: 2
Well, Volvo and SAAB are also North American cars (ford/gm owned), so they are a valid comparison, sort-of.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 1:09:47 PM , Rating: 4
Yes and BMW's and Mercede's also cost more than a Dodge. So don't compare apples to oranges.

A BMW's starting price is around what a comparable Dodge starts to top out at (save the SRT models). And while the BMW will handle better, the Dodge will be faster in a straight line. You can get both, but it costs money. It's all about what you want and how much you want to spend.

Do you want a big car that goes fast? Do you want a smaller car that handles well? Or somewhere in between? Most American's want a bigger car that goes fast. Here most people aren't as concerned with how fast they can go around a corner.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By flatline56 on 3/25/2008 12:49:27 PM , Rating: 5
Your Magnum was designed on the Mercedes E class platform, except its from the E class from the 90's. ie, the "German cars" you were beating up. Good Job being a ignorant redneck.

quote:
It's based on the same previous generation Mercedes EClass chassis (dubbed LX),


http://www.wheels.ca/article/21920


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 1:15:18 PM , Rating: 2
What's your point? It's also a hell of a lot cheaper than a new Mercedes E-Class.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By flatline56 on 3/25/2008 1:39:22 PM , Rating: 2
What is your point? It is based on a 1990's E class, which can be purchased "a hell of a lot cheaper" than a new Dodge Magnum.

My point is that while the post attempts to badmouth German automobiles, the poster actually owns one. Further, despite what you may think, DaimlerBenz owned Dodge while the Magnum was designed, so anyone stating that a Magnum is an "american" car is ignorant. Thus, his premise of pride in american design is actually misplaced adoration of a German automobile design.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Alexstarfire on 3/25/2008 1:13:07 PM , Rating: 2
Well congrats for you. Too bad no one cares. The ForTwo isn't designed to be a highway car, and if that isn't obvious then you're just like every other American. It's designed for city driving, which is why it's so small. You can't tell me it wouldn't be a lot easier to find a parking space if you had a ForTwo. You also couldn't tell me that more ForTwo's couldn't park by the curb than regular sedans.

Hell, a Prius could probably haul all the stuff you mentioned, unless that desk and dresser are humongous. It has a lot more space than people realize. The thing is, you're not going to be hauling all of that stuff on a day to day basis. Nearly every American seems to forget that. Most of the times we need little more than a scooter, for lack of a better world. I hesitate to call it a motorcycle because it's not THAT powerful. Anyways, they have tons of these over in Taiwan, at least, and they can go quite fast, over 70 MPH on the ones I saw. They've got space to carry some stuff, obvious not as much as a car but enough for a briefcase or whatever else you need for most jobs. We'll never see many of them around the States though, simply because people think it's useless, when it really isn't.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:49:49 PM , Rating: 2
Good point. Last time I had to move some furniture I rented a U-Haul van for $50 for half a day....


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Samus on 3/25/2008 2:17:49 PM , Rating: 2
Tell me you didn't just compare a Dodge Magnum to a Smart car?

The Fortwo still doubles your milage, and since it isn't a Chrysler, it'll be dependable and supported for years to come. Obviously I'm refering to Chrysler's inevitable bankrupcy.

Don't get me wrong, I've always liked Dodge's. One of my favorite cars of all time was my old Duster Turbo, but even that car was a mechanic's weekend special. They always half-ass things, even though their heart is in the right place.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Superbike on 3/25/2008 2:30:26 PM , Rating: 2
"25.3MPG for the whole trip" trip is right must have been some good acid.


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By Hiawa23 on 3/25/2008 2:39:25 PM , Rating: 2
Even with gas prices approaching $4.00/gallon, I gladly take my souped up Honda Civic, Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart to those ugly little cars. There is nowhere to put my subs or amps or nothing. I think it's great the cars are a hit, but they have no appeal at all to me..


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By 67STANG on 3/25/2008 4:03:39 PM , Rating: 2
It's funny you say that. If you are cruising around at 73 MPH, you aren't even using MDS.... sigh... MDS only works from 55-65 MPH. So you were "running on all 8 cyclinders", as they say...

Another useless implementation of a good idea. How many people opt for the Hemi and cruise at 55-65 MPH... Not many people I know. But then again, the marketing seems to work on their consumers..


RE: HEMI with MDS: 25MPG
By leoku on 4/17/2008 12:54:50 PM , Rating: 2
Unless you are always on the highway for your daily life and never get to surface streets, you are fine. I cannot imagine what type of life and job you are holding that never needs to get to the surface streets.

Otherwise try driving in downtown Chicago in rush hours for few months.

You gonna scream.


ROFL
By GotDiesel on 3/25/2008 1:01:20 PM , Rating: 2
OMG.. when is america going to wake up..

33/40hwy.. from a rollerskate.. LOL

Ever heard of a VW Jetta TDI ??.. well it's 90hp, drives like a real car, mine returns better than 40mpg town and 50+ on the freeway driving 75 to 80 mph..

runs on pump diesel or biodiesel.. it's not smelly, noisy or slow as some seem to think diesels are.. so check one out..




RE: ROFL
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/25/2008 1:04:03 PM , Rating: 2
Last time I checked, the Jetta TDI isn't on sale currently due to emissions problems. The earliest that it will be back is late '08 early '09 IIRC.


RE: ROFL
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 3:09:40 PM , Rating: 2
It will be available in August 2008. Going to speak with my VW dealer to see when they start taking orders. When shopping for my 06 TDI, there were only 2 in the USA with the options I required; Package 2, rear side airbags, NAV, TPMS, and black on black.

From the NYC Auto Show - http://www.flickr.com/photos/23386028@N08/sets/721...


RE: ROFL
By Mitch101 on 3/25/2008 1:14:16 PM , Rating: 2
In my neck of the woods.

Diesel $4.09 a gallon
Regular $3.29 a gallon

Even with the better gas mileage the cost of diesel offsets any savings.


RE: ROFL
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 1:23:57 PM , Rating: 1
Exactly. Here diesel is running $3.89ish a gallon. Regular I saw today for $3.06 a gallon. So 27% more.

And I'm sorry. I'm not driving a Jetta. It's a chick car. I've got no problem with diesel but unfortunately, its just not being offered in cars I want to buy.

Besides, paying that much for diesel is a rip off. It should be under the cost of regular considering its just the left overs from after the regular gas is made.


RE: ROFL
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/25/2008 1:39:32 PM , Rating: 4
And a Cobalt isn't a chick car? Puhlease!

That is what you drive, IIRC ;)


RE: ROFL
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 7:21:36 PM , Rating: 2
Actually I see very few women driving them in the 3 states I've lived in since buying it. And when I do its usually a base model. Regardless, I'll never buy a VW.


RE: ROFL
By Donkeyshins on 3/25/2008 2:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Wait for the BMW 123d (if they ever bring the frickin' thing to the US) or the 323d. 295 ft/lb of torque, 204HP, and 52MPG/36MPG freeway/city...out of a 2.0L 4-cylinder. And it is definitely not a 'chick' car.


RE: ROFL
By Spuke on 3/25/2008 9:13:45 PM , Rating: 2
I doubt we'll see another 4 cyl BMW in the states for quite a while. They just never sell well here. If we do see one, it will have a bit more than 204hp, diesel or not. BMW owners want their 6 cyl's (and V8's) as evidenced by their sales numbers. Remember people see these as premium vehicles and they're willing to spend the money to get a premium brand. And in the states, 4 cyl = economy no matter who's nameplate is on the car.


RE: ROFL
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 3:37:17 PM , Rating: 2
I would prefer driving the MB E320 CDI, but comparing safety features, service costs, and front wheel vs. rear wheel drive... the Jetta wins.

My idea car would be the Accord diesel or MB E320 CDI with all-wheel drive, rear side airbags, and a 40ish city/50ish highway split. Until then, the Jetta has all what I need.

If you consider it a "chick car," then it should be a converstation tool to attract women and build rapport. My wife and I fight over whose turn it is to drive the Jetta; so I know its a chick magnet and working quite well.


RE: ROFL
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 3:16:30 PM , Rating: 2
How do you figure?

3.29/4.09 equals a 20% delta increase.

Now compare the real world gas mileage between any car you want to the 2009 TDI Jetta that will be available in August. There is at least 30-40% fuel efficiency increase. I routinely get 500-600 miles per tank saving about $120 per month.

When offered this August, the TDI should also qualify for the full amount of the tax credit that has been available to diesels since 2006 now that emmisions are 50 state legal.


RE: ROFL
By Chris Peredun on 3/25/2008 3:29:42 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget to compare the purchase cost of the other vehicle to the 2009 Jetta TDI too.


RE: ROFL
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 3:53:39 PM , Rating: 2
Already considered along with the depreciation, maintenance, insurance costs, and expected service life.

Here is a good resource to start - http://www.automobilemag.com/used_car_costs/index....


RE: ROFL
By Mitch101 on 3/25/2008 3:55:10 PM , Rating: 2
Your math is backwards.

Its a a 25% increase per gallon going from regular to diesel.

It would be a 20% savings per gallon going from Diesel to Regular.

At 30% more efficient you save 5%.

Sadly with the current gap I wouldn't be surprised if they keep jacking the price of Diesel to where your 40% fuel efficiency is erased by diesel prices.

I will buy a diesel vehicle when I can get bio-diesel at the pump as easily as I can get diesel today. Once Diesel has competition then I'm hoping a price war will follow. Without alternatives to fossil fuels conveniently available were all in for it.

Fuel efficiency only turns a 100 year old business into a 200 year business. They will always jack the prices and make record profits.

I really think its excellent what the TDI Jetta brings but I wish they could bring bio-diesel at gas stations even more.


RE: ROFL
By Lord 666 on 3/25/2008 4:16:39 PM , Rating: 2
Since around 90% of the US transportation business uses diesel, the price of diesel has been putting many independent truckers out of business. However, the current penetration of diesel passenger vehicles in the US is around 1%. The rapid increase of diesel prices are not aimed at the consumers. However, it is estimated that market penetration will quickly overcome hybrids over the next 5 years to around 5%.

Problem with bio-diesel is that based on the formulation (ie. B20, B100), it will also void your warranty. Only Cummins allows higher than B5 currently or out of warranty cars. If B5 is offered for sale similar to gas with 10% ethanol filler, it will still save some petroleum resources, but more than likely increase the cost more.

Much work has been done with WVO and 80's MBs, but the emissions will still be an issue without particle filters along with horrible performance. I'll stick with diesels made in the 21st century.

There is also not-for-profit work being done that employees homeless people in NYC to collect WVO for processing into bio-diesel. http://www.rwaresourcerecovery.org/ If more creative ways like this of harvesting WVO are applied, it will keep the cost of bio-diesel at the current levels, but not cheaper as demand increases.


falls just short
By tastyratz on 3/25/2008 12:30:52 PM , Rating: 1
I like it but for an engine that size and cost that high I would expect more. The fuel economy doesn't really impress me because it should be doing a lot better. Americans are hooked on their horsepower so this will be limited to niche market. Bring over an option for a turbo diesel engine with much better mileage and it could multiply sales if you ask me. Utilize the technology used for cars twice this size in an optional trim for outstanding mileage




RE: falls just short
By piroroadkill on 3/25/2008 12:49:57 PM , Rating: 2
I absolutely agree, what's the point of making a half ass version - a turbo diesel would make it obscenely frugal, and although I have no idea how the situation with finding Diesel is in the states, I'd imagine it'd be decent enough in the areas this car is going to be used (but what do I know)


RE: falls just short
By CubicleDilbert on 3/25/2008 6:48:13 PM , Rating: 2
Well, you could try the Fortwo Brabus (my neighbour has one). Turbo-Diesel full tuned up to the max with great sound and monster wheels.
That thing needs a Michael Schumacher license to drive!

And if you are not satisfied you might google for the hybrid Fortwo which runs a diesel-electric version, but requires driving instincts of a formula one driver. The London cops have them from Mercedes for testing and they drive like scooters! 0-60mph in about 7 seconds.

Unfortunately they will not be sold in the US, too much high-tech for average US consumers. Too expensive when compared to the ususal GM or Oldsmobile.


RE: falls just short
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:27:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
London cops have them from Mercedes for testing and they drive like scooters! 0-60mph in about 7 seconds.
Most Camry's and Accord's can do 0-60 in 7 seconds. hell, the new Tundra can do it in 7.5. That's not fast.

quote:
Unfortunately they will not be sold in the US, too much high-tech for average US consumers. Too expensive when compared to the ususal GM or Oldsmobile.
Too high tech for Americans? Then you mention GM. I guess things like direct injection and variable valve timing and lift are low tech to your superior European cars. And I guess you aren't aware of what resides on our top 10 best selling cars list year after year. Since you're smart, you can look that info up for yourself.

Oh and since we're talking about intelligence, why is it that the much smarter cultures end up paying more for everything than the "dumber" one's? You'd think that you could devote all of that brain power into figuring out how to make things cheaper for you guys.


RE: falls just short
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:33:21 PM , Rating: 2
Example:

US Toyota Yaris - $11,350
UK Toyota Yaris - $17,835


RE: falls just short
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:10:58 PM , Rating: 3
it's 14k with options... that's high??

the closest thing that can touch it are hybrids that are TWICE that cost.

anyway I don't know about this

"Parking space too small? Just park head first up against the curb."

and get a nice parking ticket to go with it?


RE: falls just short
By Noya on 3/25/2008 6:35:16 PM , Rating: 2
Umm, check auto.yahoo, a 2008 Toyota Prius invoices at $19,834...and if you know how to car shop you should be able to get one for $20,234.


I put on my car one leg at a time
By HOOfan 1 on 3/25/2008 12:03:45 PM , Rating: 2
They look a little like Steve Urkel's Isetta, or a Little Tikes peddle car.




RE: I put on my car one leg at a time
By Flunk on 3/25/2008 12:23:41 PM , Rating: 2
Who cares? A lot of people are willing to look past superficial things like that to save money.


RE: I put on my car one leg at a time
By HOOfan 1 on 3/25/2008 12:28:41 PM , Rating: 2
looks like a great thing for a place like New York, or maybe some small planned communities. I wouldn't want drive this in Northern Virginia or LA traffic though.


RE: I put on my car one leg at a time
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 7:15:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
looks like a great thing for a place like New York, or maybe some small planned communities.
I saw a couple of them when I visited my in laws in Phoenix. They live in a planned community. Rather expensive way to get around. I'd rather register my ATV for the street and use that to get around.


something is not right
By jmunjr on 3/25/2008 12:26:43 PM , Rating: 2
1800 pounds? for a car that small that is pretty heavy. With 70hp I'd expect better numbers than that..

Heck I think I'd be better off getting a 1987 Honda CRX...




RE: something is not right
By FITCamaro on 3/25/2008 1:28:12 PM , Rating: 2
At least in the CRX you could pretend to be fast like all the stupid teenagers do. In that thing you'd just kinda drive it around with an ashamed look on your face. I'd rather drive the plastic car outside the K-Mart that takes quarters.


RE: something is not right
By walk2k on 3/25/2008 1:52:40 PM , Rating: 2
The CRX HF was a 12.0 second car.

0-60 that is!

Not exactly fast, but it did get 41/50 or so.

It also didn't have airbags, side-impact beams, or things like A/C, power windows, etc...

Anyway, not everyone judges their self-worth on how big or powerful their car is.


Exceeding expectations? And the EV1 isn't wanted?
By Obsoleet on 3/25/2008 1:09:13 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting. Americans "don't want" electric cars (according to the oil and auto industry) but people are lining up for anything with high mileage. A small plugin electric like this would be the ticket but America is going to have to wake up to the stranglehold big oil has on this country before we liberate our country.




By CubicleDilbert on 3/25/2008 6:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, there is a hybrid diesel electric version and a fully electric version in Europe. The London cops have the fully electric version.
The electric version currently has around 40 hp but immense torque. It can beat a Porsche in a short run at the red traffic light.

AFAIK Daimler wants to sell them in the US in 2010. The battery seems to be the problem (crash tests etc.)


By Spuke on 3/25/2008 9:24:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Americans "don't want" electric cars (according to the oil and auto industry) but people are lining up for anything with high mileage.
Yet sales numbers for F150's and Silverado's STILL dwarf all cars (over 1 million trucks between the two). The best selling small car is the Corolla/Matrix followed by the Civic. The subcompacts don't even register despite the so-called boom in 07.


Smart(er)
By Goty on 3/25/2008 2:45:16 PM , Rating: 2
The Fortwo is all well and good, but I think I'll stick with my Hyundai Accent that 1) cost less, 2) gets better gas mileage (on the highway) and 3) makes me feel safer because I have more than a foot of material that will give on either side of me in a crash.

It's a cool little grocery-getter for the trendy soccer moms out there with more money than sense, sure, but it's really not a practical vehicle for the majority of the population, IMHO.




RE: Smart(er)
By Chris Peredun on 3/25/2008 3:24:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's a cool little grocery-getter for the trendy soccer moms out there with more money than sense, sure, but it's really not a practical vehicle for the majority of the population, IMHO.


Given the diminutive dimensions of the ForTwo, I wouldn't go shopping for groceries in it for any family larger than two.


RE: Smart(er)
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 4:49:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Given the diminutive dimensions of the ForTwo, I wouldn't go shopping for groceries in it for any family larger than two.
I wouldn't even do that. My wife and I buy groceries for the month and most people I know do the same (or go twice a month). It would be a waste of gas to make multiple trips to the store. Closest store is 8 miles but we go to Walmart cause it's way cheaper even though it's 20 miles away. Yes, the price difference is worth driving farther. As a matter of fact, we can get more food, spend a bit more in gas, and it breaks even with just buying the food from the closer store. The ForTwo only makes sense as an urban commuter car but you'll still require a larger second or third car. Maybe a single person or a couple without kids could get away with it as an only car if they don't travel long distances.


Proof that you guys know f**k all about cars?
By Amiga500 on 3/25/2008 12:53:41 PM , Rating: 3
The "smart" car is a piece of shit. Overpriced rubbish.

Why not buy a VW Lupo instead?

Or even a Ford Fiesta - decent wee runaround that is far better than the "smart" car - and you'll help get a once great American company off its knees.




By Amiga500 on 3/25/2008 12:54:38 PM , Rating: 2
Of course, when asking that rhetorical question, I am hinting at the silly queue for smart cars!!!

There are far better alternatives out there that people need to be made aware of.


VW Polo: 80 MPG
By Sandok on 3/25/2008 2:47:53 PM , Rating: 2
So mister HEMI with your "astronomical" 25 MPG, your wallet must still be lighter than me with my Polo Bluemotion getting 80 MPG on a regular basis?

Yes, the Smart is a small car but for the majority of people, as a second car used to plonk down to the shops and such, I can't see why it would be bad.

Gas is getting expensive and FINALLY, America is aiming for higher MPG figures so surely, these sorts of cars will catch on. Hell, the rest of the world loves small cars (and some of these countries are as big, or even bigger than the US) so why can't the USA?




RE: VW Polo: 80 MPG
By Noya on 3/25/2008 6:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
$3.50 is getting expensive?

Isn't it $10/gal in Japan and close to that in most of Europe due to government taxes?


Really not worth the money
By Dgacioch on 3/25/2008 4:59:09 PM , Rating: 2
Back to the smart car topic....I debated picking one of these up as a runaround town machine but the high price tag and mediocre gas mileage really dont make it a good value. I picked up a fairly loaded 4 door yaris sedan for around 15k, and with an automatic transmission im averaging 33 mpg in combined driving (in very congested traffic here in detroit i might add). I can also haul 3 kids in the backseat, much to the amazement of my friends. Despite the cars small size, the rear seat has almost as much room as my old jeep grand cherokee (and almost as much trunk space). My wife has been the main driver, but im so impressed with it, im seriously considering picking up a 3 door stick shift model for me.

For you vw guys singing the praises of the tdi, great car but just way too expensive. Also, dont know what diesel is in your neck of the woods, but its 4.25 here in detroit. I keep hearing they want to push diesel here in the states like they do in europe, but frankly with the trucking industry here needing as much as they can suck up, any additional demand without adding refinery capacity is going to push diesel prices out of the range of most folks regardless if the car gets 50mpg or not. Not to mention whats going to happen when shipping costs start getting factored into essential goods like food.

Finally, although im happy with my toyota, i really wonder what the heck happened to all the good gas mileage vehicles? I used to be able to buy cars like the dodge colt, geo metro, the older less bloated honda civic, toyota tercel, etc that got much better gas mileage than almost anything released today and sat 4 people (well, maybe not sit 4, but they had a backseat which is more than you can say for the smart).




RE: Really not worth the money
By djc208 on 3/26/2008 10:29:50 AM , Rating: 2
It's not the capacity so much as the taxes. Diesel has always been taxed higher because it's only real use in the US was commercial trucking, and since large trucks cause most of the damage to our roads they get taxed higher for it. For the real price of diesel go look at the "off road" diesel or the cost of #2 fuel oil (which are basically the same thing but not taxed), much cheaper.

So if the US was serious about it the government should start offering a "consumer" diesel with taxes similar to gasoline. If it was as cheap or cheaper than gas and gave you good milage you'd have a lot more interest in the US.


=(
By ss284 on 3/25/2008 12:14:25 PM , Rating: 1
The Smart cabriolet has now surpassed the VW cabriolet as the worst car to pick up girls in.




RE: =(
By mdogs444 on 3/25/2008 1:09:22 PM , Rating: 2
I thought the Beetle was bad....as well as any type of Kia, or cheap compact car with standard steel wheels.


smart?
By Gul Westfale on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: smart?
By Gul Westfale on 3/25/08, Rating: 0
RE: smart?
By sinjinx on 3/25/2008 1:45:29 PM , Rating: 3
humpty dumpty mobile

LOL....made my morning.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have a 96 Corolla and take a beating from buddies all the time with their Yukons and Audis. But, why would I go and pay for some "green" vehicle when what I've got is getting 28/35 and running like a champ.

Show me something that's a real step forward like the Volt or Compressed Air Vehicles and I'll budge. This car is fun to look at, but an expensive fad as far as I'm concerned.


Dumb, Not Smart
By michal1980 on 3/25/2008 2:51:44 PM , Rating: 1
lets do a quick compare

Basic Civic = 15010, 26/34 MPG
Basic Fit = 13950, 28/34 MPG
Yaris Liftback = 11350, 29/35
Yaris Sedan = 12225, 29/35

'Smart' Basic Model No options = 11590, 33/41mpg.
But:
No AC (600 dollar option)
No Power Steering (450 dollar option)
No radio (495 dollar option)

so what i would consider basic options = 11590 + 600 +450 +495 = 13135 + shipping.

so far a car with 0 ulitlity outside of 2 and from work, you have to spend at least 13k, and this article says its more like 15k.

Since you need a 2nd car. you need to spend at least 30k (2 new cars).

rather get a nice civic that does all I need then an etrxa car.

The only thing smart about this.. Is helping the manufacture taking money from rich dumb people that are all about image.




RE: Dumb, Not Smart
By RaisedinUS on 3/25/2008 4:48:37 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder if you can get Fedex overnight shipping on this?


Caugh Caugh
By acer905 on 3/25/2008 12:34:50 PM , Rating: 2
... Geo Metro ...

That said, i'd go with a motorcycle over this




YUUUUUGO !!!
By SaintSinner1 on 3/25/2008 12:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
JUST ANOTHER YUGO !!!




Big Whoop
By rumptis on 3/25/2008 2:49:03 PM , Rating: 2
My 2005 Honda Civic gets 34 in town and 38 on the Hwy and is a lot more car then this.

If the car was 5000 cheaper then they would have something but not for something that is priced the same.




Nano
By FS on 3/25/2008 3:49:13 PM , Rating: 2
A couple of weeks ago there were quite a few articles on Indian Car "Nano" which had much higher fuel economy numbers(both city and highway)than this. So what is the reason that a third world country can make a car with much better mileage(and much cheaper) than these big established manufacturers from developed countries. If the price was below $10,000 then it would've been understandable as it's much cheaper to manufacture in India(also they kinda ignored some safety features) but that's not even the case.




By Odeen on 3/25/2008 4:57:40 PM , Rating: 2
1988 Honda CRX HF:
1.5 liter engine
1819 lbs curb weight
147.8" long
65.7" wide
Mileage: 50/56 49-state, 45/53 California (likely due to extra emission controls)

Source: Original Honda CRX brochure, as archived at:
http://www.stefanoparis.com/crx/jeffm/TheHondaCRXP...

So a 20-year-old car that's 40" longer, YET NO heavier, and with a usable trunk and back seat gets better gas mileage than a Smart.

I'm perfectly okay with the size and the cost of the SmartCar, but a modern keicar that costs as much as a midsize sedan should weigh 300 lbs less and get at least 55-60 MPG.




By miniMUNCH on 3/25/2008 5:25:46 PM , Rating: 2
I want that state side in the worst way.

This little car is all fine and good but their are turbo D's that kill it in mileage.

One other thing to point out... a car's manufacturing energy cost is significant portion of the car's total energy footprint. So if you think you are being environmentally helpful getting a 70k hybrid SUV... think again. Your 70k SUV takes about 2-3x more energy to make than a 25k SUV and that would amounts several thousand gallons of gas worth of energy... think about it next time you buy a car. Me... I own a hyundai elantra for this exact reason, not because I couldn't afford more... cheap car == lower amount of energy to produce. And for a simple car, elantra's are pretty nice.




Smart
By wallijonn on 3/25/2008 6:58:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Drivers used to driving "normal" family sedans or SUVs may balk at the idea of a tiny "tin can" vehicle roaming the streets, but it appears that many buyers are willing to put up with the downsides in order to make a statement.


This Matchbox should have at least had Gull Wings (like some Toyotas have in India.)




By CubicleDilbert on 3/25/2008 7:03:07 PM , Rating: 2
I just came across this, which seems to be the best smartcar

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/25/mercedes-p...




maybe NOT so smart
By ch0522 on 3/25/2008 10:46:52 PM , Rating: 2
One thing that you haven't mentioned in your comparison of average economy cars - Yaris, Fit, Accent, Elantra, Aveo is that besides seating for 4-5 vs 2, space to carry something and gas mileage that is mildly better for the smart...smart recommends PREMIUM GASOLINE!!! Factor that in and what are you really saving???




Daisy Mobile with ........
By phxfreddy on 3/25/2008 11:48:11 PM , Rating: 2
.......spring loaded flowers and tombstone that automatically pop up when you are rear ended on the freeway and they plant you right there on the spot !




Big car or Small car?
By alan328 on 3/26/2008 10:19:48 AM , Rating: 2
I like small cars. This small car is really cool! Fuel saving and easy to find parking space; make it a really good choice me.

Today I do a simple research by counting the cars past by in 5 mins. I find out that almost no small car.... and I find out that there are a large presentage of large cars like 6 seats family cars... but only the driver inside... no family member... some people are just don't take care of fuel usage nor the environment.... so sad

Alan328
http://www.modes4u.com




By Reclaimer77 on 3/26/2008 11:56:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"This is not a customer who is buying a car because it is cheap," said PAG CEO Roger Penske. "People are interested in its urban friendliness and its fuel economy," he said. "It is the total of what we offer."


Cheap ? No. Practical ? Certainly NOT. Reliable, who knows ? Safe ? Huh, if you say so. Its " urban friendly " !!!

Apparently Mr. Penske has a different criteria for a cars " total " package than the rest of us. Obviously most Americans realize, on statistics and numbers alone, its just not very - forgive the pun - Smart to buy this vehicle.

Is my 1994 Mazda Protege " Urban friendly " enough ?? I don't know, god I hope so! Right !? Buying a well priced car to fit your personal needs and reliably and safely bring you from Point A to Point B isn't good enough anymore. Thanks to the Religion of Liberalism and Global Warming, we need more economical and more Urban Friendly cars.

Apparently we're not just talking about cars here. The goal here is to invest in a social movement where, in not so many words, your Smarter and more Urban Friendly than Mr. Evil Planet Destroying sports car or SUV owner. Weather or not this actually is a practical choice for you and your families needs should come a distant second.

Mr. Penske, I have no idea if I'm being Urban Friendly enough. I just know I'm a regular guy who drives a car to get somewhere, not to prove I'm better than the next guy by being more Urban Friendly. Whatever the heck that means. Enjoy selling 15k+ units a year while the rest of us knuckle-dragging neanderthals somehow manage to use our unSmart and Urban Unfriendly vehicles.




Good but I don't understand.
By leoku on 4/17/2008 12:51:01 PM , Rating: 2
why does the shifter always on the floor? Why not under the steering wheel? or better yet, use the paddle shifter(not those F-1 class) along with the shift position indicator on the dash, instead of the chicken-leg-sized shifter?

It will creates lots of use of the additional space.




A little to small though...
By cathodeflux on 4/24/2008 10:52:40 AM , Rating: 2
Living in the Toronto area and commuting 100+ kms a day I would be hard pressed to find a reason to buy anything larger than the Ford Focus and the Toyota Corrola my wife owns. The next car I own will be something along the lines of the Toyota Matrix at most, or any other family friendly car with decent mileage. With all the semis on the 401 I figure it is not going to matter much what I am driving I will be dead anyway in a head-on collision. The Smart car and Up! are probably great if you live downtown and work downtown, but other than that it is just too small to be of any use to me.




at least, WAKE UP americans
By fredsky on 3/25/08, Rating: -1
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/25/2008 12:13:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
perhaps soon i will see some smart ads on tv too ?


From the linked article:

quote:
The tour was so effective that the company's first two years' allotment is spoken for, reports Smart USA President David Schembri. Because of that, Smart will not engage in conventional advertising through the usual outlets, but will continue to engage in non-traditional brand-building activities, he said.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By mdogs444 on 3/25/2008 1:16:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
oh ! so now at least big americans cowboys wake up and admit that a efficient little car is really smart ?

Ok you must be european, because you obviously know nothing about American culture. I can pretty much promise you its not the "big american cowboys" that are buying SmartCars.

I dont really see where anyone has argued that a more efficient car can be considered "smart" - but only when "smart" is clearly defined beforehand. If you mean getting more fuel economy while spending less money, then sure Id say thats "smart". But if doing so at sacrificing performance, luggage space, and safety...I wouldn't personally call that "smart". But others would depending on where they live, how much they drive, what they can afford, etc.
quote:
and that the "vroom vroom i'm bigger than you" is overpass ?

Obviously that is not the case, you're just making a rant to try and support your love for tiny, economical cars.
quote:
sorry but it is like this since decades in europe lol.

Um, I hate to be the one to inform you, but I dont recall very many times that the USA has been inclined to follow the examples of Europeans. Whether you deem that good or bad, is not for me to say, but history shows that European has not been a trendsetter for the USA.
quote:
perhaps soon i will see some smart ads on tv too ?

You probably would on the BBC, but the fact is that the majority population of the USA is not interested in this car.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By DarkElfa on 3/25/2008 2:45:21 PM , Rating: 3
I've never seen a bigger bunch of children in my life than in this thread, over quoting people and calling names. This isn't a Europe VS America site, so take it elsewhere.

Besides, Americans aren't all fat and Europeans happen to be our ancestors, so what do you expect when you take all of the European societies and mix them? You get a love of cars and a love of food and a love of sports and we hate our parents.

(That would be Europe) There is definately a big parent VS child vibe going on in this thread.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By Reclaimer77 on 3/25/2008 4:40:14 PM , Rating: 2
I think you guys are missing the point.

" Far outstripped expectations " is a nice catch line for the article, but the truth is the expectations were PATHETIC in the first place. And not hard at all to 'outstrip'. 15k a year is a joke. Last time the U.S department of Transportation did a survey, in 2005, there were over 247 MILLION registered vehicles in the United States. And thats just the ones that were registered ! God knows how many cars are on the road today.

I'm not going to justify the Nationalism going on in this thread by responding to it. If fifteen thousand of something being sold in a country of over three hundred MILLION people is " waking up ", then I certainly can't argue with that line of thinking.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 3/25/2008 4:46:48 PM , Rating: 3
Pontiac sells about 16,000 Solstices per year. Mazda sells about 16,000 Miatas per year.

15,000 units sold for a vehicle with basically no advertising and that has even more limited appeal than a two-seat roadster is quite an accomplishment.

I think that your expectations are out of whack.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By Reclaimer77 on 3/25/08, Rating: -1
RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By Spuke on 3/25/2008 6:54:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Miatas and Solstices are a niche market just like the " smart car ".
Yep and the advertising is almost as scarce for those cars. And those cars are about as convenient as the Smart. A niche car is a niche car.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By djc208 on 3/26/2008 11:02:38 AM , Rating: 2
But as has been said before, part of that is the "first on your block" rush. I doubt it can be reasonably maintained, just like a lot of similar vehicles. Even the Magnum at the top of this article has been discontinued for 08 because they didn't continue to sell well enough to keep making them. The few of us who love the looks went out and got one, and the rest went "I don't want a station wagon" and either bought a Charger or an SUV.

The Miata continually sells about 16k per year, jury is still out on the Pontiac/Saturn twins but eventually these numbers will drop as the market saturates. Where will the market settle at for the Fortwo is the big question.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By Spuke on 3/26/2008 5:45:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Miata continually sells about 16k per year,
Actually, the Miata sold 12k last year and 13k the year before.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By martinrichards23 on 3/26/2008 11:53:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ok you must be european, because you obviously know nothing about American culture.


He's just one guy, not an ambassador to your nation.

quote:
but history shows that European has not been a trendsetter for the USA.


It is an unfortunate habit to think Americans invented/discovered everything, whereas in reality a lot of ideas do come from Europe, and vis versa of course.

quote:
You probably would on the BBC, but the fact is that the majority population of the USA is not interested in this car.


The BBC has no adverts, I've never seen it advertised on commercial channels either.


RE: at least, WAKE UP americans
By whirabomber on 3/27/2008 10:53:24 AM , Rating: 2
My impress is that most Europeans live within 20 miles of work, actually have something that is a viable public transportation system, and think an hour drive for anything other than a holiday is horrific.

Americans easily commute 50 miles or more to work, consider an hour drive ok if it involves a good place to eat and friends, don't have anything close to europe/japan's public transportation system, and of course, the US is as big as all of europe landmass wise. So we have further to drive, don't care if it takes forever, and usually don't have much choice in the matter to drive ourselves everywhere.

Add the fact that most American roads have semi's somewhere between 1.5 and 2x the capacity of at european version, we just feel safer in our large car-tanks. Add the fact that most baby boomers drove something resembling a 57' Chevy an other road boat variants, they still love their large cars.

My preference? I love my 2k5 PT cruiser, hate it's 24/30 mpg. Anything I can carry over 14 2x4's and isn't a boat holds my interest. I had a 11/16 mpg Dodge ram 2500 and never used it to do more than commute to work, move once, and go to the movies. I'll probably keep my PT until something more signifigant and less confusing comes along.

The confusion comes in when I compare the 22/26 MPG my first car - a'67 302 powered (motor was swapped out during its life at some point) Mustang - got. I can't figured why there isn't a larger different between gas milages. I calculate both the same way, for example if drove 200 miles, added 10 gallons of gas, I got 20mpg, so why hasn't mpg gone up? Everyone who slings cars on TV claim "good" mpg, but really it isn't "good" if the mpg has not gotten signifigantly better since my first car.

The smart, for its size, does not have a "good" mpg as a fiesta had really close mpg numbers (really bad quality, but hey). The only way I could see a Smart getting "good" gas mileage is if the Smart came out in the original 90mpg diesel touted in the first press releases.


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