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Three more people have joined the growing list of people caught illegally exporting material to China

Three people have been charged of conspiracy to export space and weapons materials to China illegally. The three men -- one of whom lives in New York, while the other two are in Singapore -- allegedly tried to send carbon fiber to the China Academy of Space Technology; one of several academies responsible for building satellites used by the Chinese government.

There is growing concern that the Chinese space program could easily turn into a militarized space program capable of launching attacks from space.  China successfully destroyed an aging weather satellite in January, which worried officials from several western governments.

"Keeping U.S. weapons technology and other restricted materials from falling into the wrong hands and from being used against our allies, our troops overseas or Americans at home is a top counter-intelligence priority of the Justice Department," Assistant Attorney General for National Security Patrick Rowan said.  "Through this multi-agency initiative we are making America a far more hostile target for those that seek to obtain our sensitive technology through illegal means."

After a successful satellite shoot down by the U.S. government in February, it was China's turn to bring up concern regarding possible space military actions.

The United States, Russia, China, and other nations are developing technology able to shoot down satellites, missiles and other airborne objects.

Along with China, the Justice Department has noticed a rise in illegal transportation of weapons and military equipment that is headed for Iran.  According to an Associated Press report, Iran has been the top location for illegal export of restricted U.S. technology over the past two years.

The U.S. government has filed charges against 145 people accused of export violations, with half of the export cases related to either China or Iran.  There has been a 30 percent increase in violations during 2008, with numbers steadily increasing the past several years.



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Carbon fiber?
By guacamojo on 10/30/2008 10:33:28 AM , Rating: 2
...and how is this different from the carbon fiber tennis rackets, bike/snowboard helmets, golf clubs, and other assorted products which are made in China?

Okay, so we obviously don't have the details on the carbon fiber which was sent... maybe it's high grade material.

But from what I recall, the commodity grade stuff is still better than what we made our ICBM's out of back in the 60's...




RE: Carbon fiber?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2008 10:38:47 AM , Rating: 5
Carbon Fiber is just a class of materials. It's generally the specific material that is important. It's likely a new one that gives it a decided advantage in capability versus older carbon fiber based materials. Likely making it ideal for use in space based platforms for any number of reasons.

Military grade materials are classified, as is the process and techniques used in making them, because of this. Exporting classified materials = Federal Crime. In time of war, this crime can be punishable by death. These guys will likely end up with life imprisonment.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By djkrypplephite on 10/30/2008 10:43:42 AM , Rating: 2
That's why they want it. For the most part. China's military is very 20th century. They have a bunch of old weapons and they're trying to modernize probably so they can invade Taiwan and we'd be too scared to do anything about it. If we went to war with China today, we would obliterate them. It wouldn't even be fair. Same thing with Russia or any other country on Earth. The only people that might stand a chance is probably Britain. Nobody else's military is quite on-par with America's. We out-innovate and out-spend every other nation in the world--by a long shot.

The Chinese may have a billion-man army (which they don't, but since everyone says that, I'll go with it), but I suspect we have a few types of bombs that would take care of that problem. They have no effective transportation for these people to get them to America. They MIGHT be able to defend China, but then again we have bases all over the world, and I'm sure we'd send in the Marines and destroy them after a series of bombings and infantry advances. A conventional war against America, well, nobody else could win that.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2008 11:00:51 AM , Rating: 2
Ditto. In a conventional war, we currently have no equal. This Cold War era garbage they use, and massive amounts of infantry might be fine against poorly equipped countries, but not against Western air power. Cluster bombs are fantastic, and turn troops into pudding by the truckload. There's also some other types such as Airurst, or Incendiary weapons to deal with large numbers of infantry. Attacking China really isn't an option due to the ease of guerilla warfare, but its not like they could launch an invasion against any US backed country without horrific casualties, if they succeed at all.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By cete on 10/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: Carbon fiber?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2008 11:13:30 AM , Rating: 3
If you would read before posting you would see that I was referencing China's ability to invade a US backed country. I was very specific that invading China is not an option.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Exirtis on 10/30/2008 3:16:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but an attack against china would lead to a coalition against usa that could be a lot more difficult to defeat than you proud citizens think.

stop being so proud about how you can kick everyone's asses, warmongers!
Chill out. He's not advocating war against China, merely discussing differences in military capability and how different sorts of conflicts might turn out, in light of each country's current capabilities (both technological and manpower-wise).

This is completely relevant to the topic at hand because of the potential for these technology thefts in altering China's military capabilities vs. those of the United States.

Trying to review these issues realistically is not warmongering, in and of itself. If he'd said, "Hoo-ah! Let's get-em now!" Then that would be warmongering.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By CSQuake on 10/30/2008 11:02:09 AM , Rating: 1
Seriously Britain wouldn't stand a chance against the US. We prefer to spend more money on our National Health Service and other resources (including massive gifts and expense bills for our MPs...not through choice), where as, more of your taxes go to the military. And being a much larger country also helps with the amount of taxes you are able to spend.

You would think in this day and age, that all this bullshit "Who's got the biggest and baddest weapons/army/navy/etc?" might disappear, and instead we can all (the world) concentrate on helping out the 3rd world etc, and live life and have some fun.

I fkin hate this planet sometimes.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By rcc on 10/30/2008 11:20:54 AM , Rating: 2
Make you a deal. You get everyone else to demilitarize, and I guarantee the American people will require our government to scale back immensely.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By CSQuake on 10/30/2008 11:22:49 AM , Rating: 2
Sup? you girls scared? That's not surprising.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By rcc on 10/30/2008 1:21:33 PM , Rating: 3
Um,...... so's your old man???? Your mama wears combat boots??.....

Sorry, I climbed out of grade school a long time ago so I'm out of practice.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By codeThug on 10/30/2008 9:37:34 PM , Rating: 2
Whaaaaatch it. My mom wears combat boots...


RE: Carbon fiber?
By rcc on 11/6/2008 12:01:26 PM , Rating: 2
So? It's only an insult if the listener agrees that it is. : )


RE: Carbon fiber?
By ThePooBurner on 10/30/2008 7:31:09 PM , Rating: 2
Scaling back the military in a time of peace is foolishness and asking for trouble. Pray for peace. Enjoy peace. But always, ALWAYS, be prepared for war.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By rcc on 11/6/2008 12:05:14 PM , Rating: 2
I agree completely. However, if all your neighbors are pacifists, all you really need is a .45 to deal with the occasionaly bout of madness...... Well, plus chain gun in the attic to deal with unforeseen circumstances.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By seraphim1982 on 10/30/2008 11:11:59 AM , Rating: 1
LOL!@#!#!#!@#!$!@$#
Where do you get your information from the dumpster of aging old books from the local southern american library.

"If we went to war with China today, we would obliterate them. It wouldn't even be fair. Same thing with Russia or any other country on Earth. The only people that might stand a chance is probably Britain. Nobody else's military is quite on-par with America's. We out-innovate and out-spend every other nation in the world--by a long shot."

Obviously you are pulling random info from your ass, if Russia and China wouldn't stand a chance, then why can't the USA/CAN/Nato can't even get rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Russia and China would own the shit out of the US and since Iran is aligned with Russia, moreso.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2008 11:20:44 AM , Rating: 2
You really need to learn the finer points of conflict. The Taliban is more of a political problem due to the cross border nature of the guerilla warfare they are exercising. In open war with China/Russia, it would be a gloves off military campaign, not the political shell game currently in use in the Afgan/Taliban conflict.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By DanD85 on 10/30/2008 1:38:35 PM , Rating: 1
Don't be too confident about the might of the US army! Maybe you guys watch Future Weapons on Discovery Channel too much. As Sun Tzu had said, only by truely knowing your enemy and yourself, could you win the war. Without precise intelligence, shit can happen anytime and this has been proved numerously through countless wars.

And it seems all of you guy are post-Vietnam war kids, so you forgot how could America be defeated by an under-developed, third world country like that? I still scratching my head for this, hope some of you "expert" out there could answer me.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Pneumothorax on 10/30/2008 2:15:22 PM , Rating: 2
Gulf war I is a better example what we can do when you let us fight with "no holds barred" Honestly if we could fight with no regard for civilian casualties, technology would win over numbers as who can wipe out the fastest would win. Then again, nukes would start to fly in that kind of war and definitely no one would win that one other than cockroaches.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2008 2:34:09 PM , Rating: 3
Vietname is another prime example of politics running a war, not the military. If the military is allowed to do its job, you end up with WW2, where the US Generals are calling the shots. If you let the congress, diplomats, and the president call the shots, you end up with Vietnam. Any questions?


RE: Carbon fiber?
By FITCamaro on 10/30/2008 3:11:09 PM , Rating: 1
We'll start having effective wars again the day the media isn't allowed in a war zone.

News cameras have no place on a battlefield. War isn't pretty. Cutting our troops balls off to make it more camera friendly only gets the troops killed.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Mojo the Monkey on 10/30/2008 7:20:00 PM , Rating: 3
I completely disagree. We cant just have war and know that "horrible things are happening, but we dont have to see it". Guess what? The innocent non-combatant civilians in war zones have no choice. Real people die in war, its ugly, and a lot more of it happens without zealous oversight or the fear thereof.

I think that if people really want war, they should be prepared to deal with all of the gruesome images and consequences that come along with it.

So what is your solution? Something tantamount to genocide? Bomb/destroy every building that a bullet comes flying from?

The kind of war you speak of better come if, and only if, my country is threatened with invasion of an organized military.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By DanD85 on 10/30/2008 11:42:46 PM , Rating: 2
If you put it that way, then I hope the Vietnam lesson should be well learned among politians as what happen in Iraq and Afgan now really really remind me of the VN war. The US military can swiftly win in big battlefield, conventional warfare but it seems they lack patience and proper skill in uncoventional warfare like guerilla and urban combat where big bomb and big gun count for nothing.

Patience is a hard-to-come-by virtue these days...


RE: Carbon fiber?
By kyp275 on 10/31/2008 12:40:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The US military can swiftly win in big battlefield, conventional warfare but it seems they lack patience and proper skill in uncoventional warfare


change "US military" to "US public opinion", and you've got it just about right.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By rcc on 10/30/2008 11:32:50 AM , Rating: 3
Don't confuse war with what's going on in Iraq and Afganistan. Truly the war in Iraq was over very quickly. What we have now is a bunch of not-to-bright terrorists mostly blowing up their own people.

If they were a bit brighter they'd know that all they have to do is back off for a year or two, and the US would be gone. Then they could go back to whatever they've been doing to each other for the last few millenia.

The US is not going to "go after" China or Russia, there is no real reason to. However, neither will the US allow them to start expanding over US allies. Personally I hope we never have to learn who the meanest kid on the playground is. But, I know where I want to be if it hits the fan.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By abzillah on 10/30/2008 3:48:29 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
If they were a bit brighter they'd know that all they have to do is back off for a year or two, and the US would be gone.


That can go both ways, if the US would pull out, then those terrorist would not have someone to kill. Also, if you read the news, more innocent people are being killed by the coalition forces than the terrorist. In the movie, "Where on Earth is Osama Bin Laden," the guy who had his brother accused of being a terrorist, he said that Al Quida wants the US in that region so they can attack them.
I think all these people who desire war should just play some FPS games and get their aggression out that way.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Ringold on 10/31/2008 1:01:39 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Where do you get your information from the dumpster of aging old books from the local southern american library.


Actually, I read a recent article regarding Southern libraries being among the better ones in the nation, with recently increasing use by locals. I actually visit my local one a lot of times over lunch to read a few news papers I don't care to subscribe to, like IBD. Have you actually been to many Southern libraries? Check yourself before you accuse others of "pulling random info from your ass." Also, if I detected a hint of arrogance towards Southerners, I'd check and see which states are in recession and which still have low unemployment, just in case you're a northern liberal looking down upon the lowly red states.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By guacamojo on 10/30/2008 11:32:59 AM , Rating: 4
Seriously?

I understand China's desire to upgrade their military. Every nation on the planet wants to do that (including the US). But suggesting that the US could "win" a war against a WMD-armed opponent seems, well, insane.

Okay, there are some countries with very small numbers of weapons. You could argue that all-out war with one of them would be "winnable," as they don't really have an effective deterrent.

But for the rest of us, the days of billion-man armies winning the wars are over. WMD's saw to that. Unconditional surrenders? Hardly. What would China do if US troops were rolling into Beijing? How effective would our ballistic missile shield be against large numbers of incoming nukes? And would they hesitate to use tactical nukes on the battlefield if they were losing the war?

Yes, we could nuke them into radioactive slag too. So what? You've still got huge casualties on both sides. Is that a win?

Besides, why would China want to invade the US? We're their best customer! Plus, we'll sell them a whole bunch of US debt backed with US assets. Why invade when you can just buy us up wholesale?


RE: Carbon fiber?
By abzillah on 10/30/2008 3:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You've still got huge casualties on both sides. Is that a win?

Yes it's a win, for the third party who is standing by and watching. Once the two sides have destroyed each other, then the bystander can take over the world.
Didn't you play Far Cry 2? By having the two sides destroy each other, then you can save the innocent people.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By Min Jia on 10/31/2008 12:59:39 AM , Rating: 2
LMAO! How are you gonna fund your war against China? China's certianly not going to fund a war against china...


RE: Carbon fiber?
By CSQuake on 10/31/2008 8:27:12 AM , Rating: 2
Let's say, for arguments sake, that America were stupid (or paranoid) enough to accidentally start a war with China. And win (lol). You would see a mountain of US corporations offering to rebuild China in exchange for some of Chinas wealth. Ring any bells? Iraq. That was easy money.


RE: Carbon fiber?
By aapocketz on 10/30/2008 4:49:28 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
and how is this different from the carbon fiber tennis rackets, bike/snowboard helmets, golf clubs, and other assorted products which are made in China?

in this sense we are probably talking different carbon fiber composites, with different requirements than that of fishing polls/tennis racquets. Probably material that is highly refractory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractory and has higher tensile strength, resistance to oxidation, and perhaps stealthy dialectic properties. These material generally fall under the category of ceramic matrix composites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic, which include carbon-carbon and SiC, etc. These materials are generally subject to ITAR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITAR restrictions, and can be classified.
quote:
But from what I recall, the commodity grade stuff is still better than what we made our ICBM's out of back in the 60's

Using todays technology, especially advances in technology from the semiconductor industry we could certainly outperform space tech from the 60's. Unfortunately much of this technology hasn't advanced as much as it could have, due to the fact that funding and interest in space has dropped dramatically since that period (Save for weapon/defense systems funding). Honestly we may have lost some of the technology from that period with knowledge retention issues as scientists on the early space programs have retired and passed on. There was a day when you could almost walk into NASA with an idea and walk out with funding, that is no longer the case.


ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS
By spoerad1 on 10/30/2008 3:24:28 PM , Rating: 3
Wow this site has gone down hill. Where did all the intelligent/rational people go. While the supremecy of our military is not even argued by china our russia, we would never go to war with them. Afganistan is not a conventional war. We have no reason to invade russia or china and we could not really afford to do so because they are part of the global economy and no major country can would attack aanother. China is an ally and russia just likes to push our buttons. This is not how the world works anymore.

YAY for GLOBALIZATION




RE: ARE YOU PEOPLE SERIOUS
By Fnoob on 10/30/2008 7:45:56 PM , Rating: 2
YAY for GLOBALIZATION

Yep, and Obama is about to be elected president of the World...

Sighs...


War - Everyone Loses
By tech329 on 10/31/2008 4:04:29 AM , Rating: 3
As a Vietnam vet I am sad to see all this discussion about who can kick someone else's ass etc etc. War is a mess and the only winners are people making guns and what all else. People don't win and nations don't win. The worst part is some wars are for stupid reasons of ideological or religious disagreement. The remaining conflicts are due to nations like the U.S. letting their global businesses screw all their global business partners. Individuals, businesses and the military do things in places outside the U.S. that they could never do here at home. The idea of, 'What goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas' is symptomatic of the mindset. Why is it OK to run amok and do crazy and often harmful stuff in another place and to other people but not here? I lived abroad in several countries when in the military and in private sector employment afterward, and I can assure you this is the way it works. The U.S. is by no means alone in this regard but because of politics and economics we undeniably (right now) lead the parade. If this might ever change remains to be seen but historically speaking, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it. Pick any point in history and whoever is at the top of the heap does what they want. It's just the way we are. You can see the same thing from a different angle by examining two adjacent towns here in the U.S. with competing high school football teams where people do all manner of things we call pranks that are all about gaining some advantage over the competition. Who wins is all that matters. Darwin had this precisely figured out. Survival of the fittest remains unchallenged as an objective fact. Everything else, good, bad or indifferent doesn't mean a thing.




Can't we all just get along?
By lco45 on 10/31/2008 3:30:41 AM , Rating: 2
Aside from the corny subject, what I mean is that surely this is a losing battle, trying to stop a country like China from gaining some technology, which they will surely gain soon enough anyway.

I know a guy who is a very good kickboxer, competes in amateur tournaments, etc.
He could easily kick my ass, but he never would because I'm his friend. In fact, he'd help me out if I was getting my ass kicked.
Isn't that easier than me trying to be a better fighter than him, stop him getting to the gym and working out, hiding his practice mitts etc?

Anyway, China would never nuke anyone because the Chinatowns are always downtown ;-)

Luke




Weapons...IN SPAAAAACE
By Buspar on 10/31/2008 5:21:47 AM , Rating: 2
I find it amusing how the US throws its hands up about China putting weapons into space when, according to the WSJ, the US is actually the leader in space militarization tech. The US was the first to develop satellite destroying weapons and tested it many years before China did their own test.

Additionally, China and other countries have signed treaties designed to prevent weapons from going into space. China's leaders have said they want to avoid the kind of "attacks from orbit" scenario outlined here, deeming it counter-productive and unprofitable. It's been the US that has refused to sign those treaties and insisted on carrying on with research into that, which is why other countries like China are playing catch-up. Again, the WSJ did a great breakdown on this a while back that showed the US government's hypocrisy on the matter.

Point is, if the US was serious about keeping weapons out of space, we'd be following China's lead on the matter, not trying to call the kettle black.




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