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Prime Minister Shinawatra plans to give OLPCs away for free

According to reports, Thailand has jumped on the One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) bandwagon and government officials have even announced that it would give away the OLPCs free of charge if the test project is deemed successful. Thailand's Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra told reporters that he plans to have the OLPCs in distribution by October of this year. At first, the units will be distributed to a limited number of children in select areas where technology access is limited. After a period of observation, Shinawatra said he hopes to distribute the OLPCs on a wide scale.

Shinawatra also mentioned that Thailand may replace traditional school books with OLPCs because books can be found on the Internet -- although this may present a copywrite situation. "Each elementary school child will receive a computer that the government will buy for them, free of charge, instead of books, because books will be found and can be read on computers," said Shinawatra.  The OLPC committee also just announced that the computers would come with a pre-loaded offline version of Wikipedia -- not a bad start for a personal library.

The OLPC project has met some criticism along with its success. India currently opposes the project, saying that laptops impede on the analytical and thinking abilities of young children. Despite the concerns, several other countries have expressed great interest in the program although none have placed full orders yet. The OLPC committee says that it is currently talking with a number of counties including Nigeria, though some previous reports of the adoption of these notebooks was originally overestimated.

Shinawatra is currently one of Thailand's richest citizens. He previously founded a telecommunications empire in Thailand and prior to that worked for IBM.

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Shmopyrite issues
By RyanM on 8/13/2006 11:02:08 PM , Rating: 1
Copyright issues shouldn't be a problem, providing they pay for licenses for each copy of the ebooks they plan on using. eBooks should hypothetically be significantly cheaper than traditional textbooks, and assuming the laptops last for 3 years, they could pay for themselves based on textbook costs alone. Add to the fact that they will obviously have more uses than just textbooks, I don't see why these can't be one of the most significant boons to education since the printing press.

All the cynicism comes from closed-minded individuals who simply can't comprehend what a dedicated laptop like this can do for learning.




RE: Shmopyrite issues
By TomZ on 8/13/2006 11:30:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All the cynicism comes from closed-minded individuals who simply can't comprehend what a dedicated laptop like this can do for learning.

Pretty ironic comment - making a broad, sweeping statement dismissing the views of those that disagree with you - who is being closed-minded? Are you afraid of a little debate?


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By Saist on 8/13/2006 11:55:49 PM , Rating: 3
well, I would argue against the basis of the point itself.

Musch of the cynicism that we see comes from entities who have a vested interest in insuring that the OLPC does NOT take off.

For example, Intel. Intel would rather see smaller non-laptop like devices with limited feature sets, items like PocketPC's or palms. The conspiracy theory behind Intel though states that Intel is just mad because they were not considered at all when it came to powering the laptop.

Another big example is Microsoft. Microsoft offered Reduced cost / Free Windows Licenses for use with the OLPC. However, the aim of the OLPC project isn't just to give kids in 3rd World Countries computers, it is to also give them a computer that they can learn about, and learn from. You can't view the source or work with the Windows Operating system outside of Microsoft's boundaries. That was an automatic disqualification for Microsoft's Operating System, and why Apple's OSX offer was turned down. The conspiracy theory there states that Microsoft is scared of what will happen if more users grow up with Linux rather than Windows. These users won't go away and they'll bring value to a market that Microsoft does not control.

In the case of India, the excuse given for avoiding OLPC is a weak one, and the conspiracy theory states that Microsoft is exerting it's own pressure upon the Indian Government. Consider Microsoft's development process versus the development process of the FOSS communities. Microsoft's development process is performed entirely behind closed doors and there is no peer review of the code. Software produced by the FOSS communities though mirrors that of what you find in the histories of math, science, english and geography. Now, I am going to presume that if you are reading Anandtech/Dailytech that you have at least completed your sophomore year in one of these classes in high school, and probably have taken one of these classes in College. During class you should have been subjected to a peer review. Lets say that you write a paper about how "Oranges Grow Best In Flordia." After you finish writing your paper your teacher collects it, then hands it to another student, who then proceeds to read the paper and look for errors. The reasoning behind the peer review is that as the author of the paper, you have a vested interest in the success of the paper, and you have a mental picture of what the paper should say. Because of these two factors you may miss spelling errors or grammar errors in the paper. However, another person who does not have a vested interest in the subject, or does not have a pre-determined mental picture of the paper, is more likely to find errors within the paper itself.

This is why newspapers, magazines, and most websites have an editor. Someone who proof-reads the article before allowing submission. The same editing process is also identical in the fields of science, mathematics, and geology. When you discover a new formula, equation, or some other factor of nature, it is standard process to document the formula, equation, or factor, in the form of a proof or another document. Magazines like "Science Magazine" often carry various proofs about new discoveries in the field of Science.

The point of all this is that everytime someone in these fields discovers something new, they have to prove it, and then that proof is submitted to their peers. Very little work in any of these fields is done without building on the successes or tools that the previous generation discovered, built, or improved.

That is what India misses in their reasoning against OLPC. The genius rated people of today did fantastic without computers or other devices. But what about their fore-bearers? What about those who went before? What about the tools, devices, calculations, algorithms, and whatever that they discovered? Would our current crop of genius rated people be a "genius" if they had to re-invent or discover everything over and over?

The obvious answer is, of course not. Now, as mentioned earlier, the conspiracy theory behind India states that Microsoft intentionally wants to block OLPC because it gives new users the tools to live in a world without Microsoft. By preventing the use of non-Microsoft tools, Microsoft has an insurance plan in place.

Now, I don't know if these conspiracy theories are accurate. I don't know if they would hold up under any tight scrutiny.

But, that isn't the intent of this post. The intent is to point out that the cynicism and critiscm of the OLPC is not going from closed-minded invivduals who simply can't comprehend what a dedicated laptop like this could do for learning. Yes, there are a lot of those involved who this statement would accurately describe. However there are other interests at play here from parties that do understand the full ramifications for what OLPC could do.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By almvtb on 8/14/2006 12:07:07 AM , Rating: 2
I think that is the longest post I have ever seen on here.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By cgrecu77 on 8/14/2006 12:14:01 AM , Rating: 2
and definitely one of the better ones ... :)


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By TomZ on 8/14/2006 12:26:55 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
well, I would argue against the basis of the point itself. [blah, blah, blah]

Well, that is really a lot of blathering about nothing, sorry to say.

The only point I want to address is your assertion that Microsoft has no peer review, which is obviously wrong. The reason it is wrong is that Microsoft clearly has internal review, testing, and acceptance teams that are separate from the developers. This is the proper criteria for reviews - testers that are not the same people as the developers. There is no requirement that code reviews be performed by individuals from outside Microsoft in order to be effective. Your argument makes no sense logically and has no research basis AFAIK. Please reference your research if you believe otherwise.

Also, if you have evidence that India gave the thumbs down to OLPC due to pressure from Microsoft, please state that also. Otherwise, we will assume you made that up also.

Finally, if you think that OLPC is a good idea, please talk about why, instead of casting disperations and supposed motives against those who might not agree with your view. As I said above, why not have a debate, instead of categorically dismissing others' views.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By FITCamaro on 8/14/2006 3:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Microsoft is a private company that sells its product. There is nothing illegal or immoral about protecting the product you spend billions of dollars producing. Microsoft may not let anyone and everyone review their code, but that doesn't mean no one does.

I get tired of people ripping on Microsoft and Bill Gates. The reality is they do nothing different than any other large corporation. They are an excellent company to work for and give more back to the community than most. Bill Gates alone donates millions to charities and other organizations. Microsoft offered to build my college (well, I graduated) a new building. All they asked in return was for a recruiting center on campus in the building. My school turned it down. I was pissed. Because god forbid they offer students jobs or anything.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By Saist on 8/14/2006 5:26:32 PM , Rating: 1
Tom, the fact that you shorten the post to say [blah, blah, blah] indicates that you did not read it, along with your own blanket statement that it is really a lot of blathering about nothing. I find it even more interesting in that my post was backing up your own quote about :

quote:
Pretty ironic comment - making a broad, sweeping statement dismissing the views of those that disagree with you - who is being closed-minded? Are you afraid of a little debate?


Am I to understand that you do not hold yourself to the advisements that your own posts make?

To continue on with oyur post:

quote:
The only point I want to address is your assertion that Microsoft has no peer review, which is obviously wron


Okay Tom. I would like you to tell me who, outside of Microsoft, is allowed to view, or review, or give oversight, to the Windows Operating System? Is there a non-partisan government agency? Is there a non-Microsoft backed foundation? Is there a College or University with teams to provide code review?

quote:
The reason it is wrong is that Microsoft clearly has internal review, testing, and acceptance teams that are separate from the developers. This is the proper criteria for reviews - testers that are not the same people as the developers.


And... you missed the entire point and examples of Peer Review that I gave in the originating post. The fact is, all of these testers are employed by Microsoft. They are not impartial reviewers. Like the developers, they have a vested interest in the program they are reviewing.

This is well demonstrated by the sheer number of Windows Operating System Vulnerabilities disclosed for the Windows Operating System, and the average length of time it takes to patch a problem.

Now, I am aware that there are studies out there that indicate that Linux Distributions and Microsoft Windows are about the same in level of security, and they do this by comparing apples and oranges. So, I'm going to pose these questions to you:

If you take just the Linux Kernel Itself, and Compare to the Windows Operating System Kernel::

1: which has more disclosed errors
2: how long is the average time to fix the errors,
3: how many of the errors are critical enough to allow the system to be compromised?
4: How many of the errors are actually exploited before a patch is available?

Now, I could answer these questions, but I am going to presume, again, that anybody else reading Anandtech/Dailytech is aware of what the answers are, or knows how to get the answers.

I think my point is made though. Microsoft's version of Peer Review is proven to not work at all.

quote:
There is no requirement that code reviews be performed by individuals from outside Microsoft in order to be effective. Your argument makes no sense logically and has no research basis AFAIK. Please reference your research if you believe otherwise.


True, there is no legal or moral requirement in place to allow code review. However, the process of external non-partisan review has been in place since the days of Aristotle. Now, you ask for proof or research as far as you know. This tells me, indirectly, that you have not gotten out of middle school, have not attended any high school, or attended any college. My basis for this statement is that you have not been subjected to any true peer-review, or you have not proceeded to an advanced enough place in any education system to have a certified teacher explain the importance behind peer review. Now, I am not in a position to give you research. However, I would advise you to go to any local college or univeristy, track down a Professor, and ask them. They will be in a much better position to give real life examples.

quote:
Also, if you have evidence that India gave the thumbs down to OLPC due to pressure from Microsoft, please state that also. Otherwise, we will assume you made that up also.


I am going to quote myself Tom

quote:
Now, I don't know if these conspiracy theories are accurate. I don't know if they would hold up under any tight scrutiny.


Again, it is indicated that you did not read the post all the way through by your statement. If you wish to make such statements in the future, please take the time to fully read another persons post before doing such things as this.

quote:
Finally, if you think that OLPC is a good idea, please talk about why, instead of casting disperations and supposed motives against those who might not agree with your view. As I said above, why not have a debate, instead of categorically dismissing others' views.


Okay. So I back up your original argument, bring forth reasonable logic and explination about what some of the motives behind the major players could be, and you don't read the post. And then, you blanket sweep away my post, then call for a debate.

I'm sorry, but if you are not willing to respond in turn or provide a basis from which to stand, there is little, or nothing here to debate. Your post that I followed was not about giving reasons for why OLPC is a good idea.

Now, if you want reasons why, you'll just have to read my blog.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By masher2 (blog) on 8/14/2006 6:21:45 PM , Rating: 2
> " Is there a non-partisan government agency [reviewing Microsoft code]...all of these testers are employed by Microsoft. They are not impartial reviewers...."

Thansk, but I'll trust a tester employed by Microsoft a lot more than a "non-partisan government agency". If a privately-employed tester screws up, he suffers consequences. He gets fired, or his employer suffers lost sales or a lawsuit.

If a government agency screws up-- they just say "oh well", and blame it on having too small a budget.

> "This is well demonstrated by the sheer number of Windows Operating System Vulnerabilities disclosed for the Windows Operating System..."

A few weeks back, I posted a list of the CERT advisories for Linux. It was a good bit longer than the Microsoft list.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By TomZ on 8/14/2006 8:52:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Okay Tom. I would like you to tell me who, outside of Microsoft, is allowed to view, or review, or give oversight, to the Windows Operating System? Is there a non-partisan government agency? Is there a non-Microsoft backed foundation? Is there a College or University with teams to provide code review?

Nobody outside Microsoft is, because Windows source code is Microsoft's intellectual property and is a trade secret. They own the code - get it? You assume, incorrectly, first that anyone else has any right to review the code, and second, that developers outside of Microsoft would be any more qualified than Microsoft developers.

Further, you completely confuse the concept of peer reviews, e.g., putting a paper out for review in an academic setting, with software engineering code reviews. Code reviews have no requirement for neutral third parties as you state, except that a different person/team reviews the code than authored it. It generally doesn't matter whether the organization performing the review is the same as produced the code. Remember, we are not looking for diversity of opinion here - we are looking for functional, performance, security, and style correctness. An internal review team can do that job. I've been involved with software reviews for many years at various companies, and never was the code disclosed to an outside company for review. It makes no sense.

Your assertions about Windows security and claims about Linux are nonsensical. Masher already put that to rest. I would just add that your comparison between Windows and Linux is also inherently flawed because Microsoft carries the support burden and exposure of hundreds of millions of desktops. Linux desktop share is comparatively miniscule. You need to think about how that affects both the effort that folks will invest to break Windows, as well as the responsibility Microsoft has to thoroughly test their fixes and also respond in a timely manner. I see that as a very large job; don't you recognize this?

Sorry, I can't address each any every one of your points. Needless to say, I don't agree with your characterization of the discussion, nor do I agree with your conclusions.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By darkfoon on 8/14/2006 1:29:22 AM , Rating: 2
I believe that you make interesting points, however, I do not agree entirely with the OLPC program. I suppose that you could group my views with India's, but I believe that my reasons a little different.

First, I think that a book, while fragile and antiquated, is a better study tool than my computer. Certainly, I use my computer for research, however I learn better from a book, and this may just be a personal preference. For example, when I have a a lengthy reading assignment from a textbook, say a history textbook, I find a quiet place to read, and I go through the reading; sometimes I have a highlighter or I make mental notes of important facts. Once I finish, I either go to sleep or do homework for a different subject. Later on (either the next day or later the same day) I re-read that same chapter from the history book while writing down the key points in notes. If I had to do this with a computer, I'd find it far too distracting to retain any of the knowledge.

Granted, this is from the perspective of a college student who must buy all of his textbooks.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By masher2 (blog) on 8/14/2006 8:11:20 AM , Rating: 3
> "You can't view the source or work with the Windows Operating system outside of Microsoft's boundaries. That was an automatic disqualification for Microsoft's Operating System, and why Apple's OSX offer was turned down..."

Just to correct the facts, the OLPC initiative discussed a version of Windows CE with Microsoft, but they eventually decided it would add to much to the cost of the laptop. They chose Linux for cost reasons, not over any arcane desire to have children fiddling with the internals of the OS.

> "the conspiracy theory states that Microsoft is exerting it's own pressure upon the Indian Government"

And that's exactly what it is-- a conspiracy theory.

> That is what India misses in their reasoning against OLPC. Would our current crop of genius rated people be a "genius" if they had to re-invent or discover everything over and over? "

Your premise assumes that, without a computer, people would be continually forced to reinvent "everything", which is obviously untrue. There are those that believe books are a better substitute to this OLPC, and their arguments have weight.

Have you even seen the OLPC? A 7" screen, no disk drive, power supplied by continually hand-cranking it, and, in most cases, no Internet connectivity. An "eBook" in short. Most researchers around the world-- even those who can afford the latest technology-- still prefer printed books to eBooks.

Personally, I see some advantages to the OLPC initiative. However, I think the success of the project-- particularly if it attempts to replace ordinary "book-learning"-- is anything but assured.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By VooDooAddict on 8/14/2006 8:51:36 AM , Rating: 2
You don't think "closed source" operations have peer review of code? Peer review is pretty damn common across all development. Microsoft has one of the better internal software QA progams.

I wish they would have at least considered Apple's or Microsoft's option. I'm pretty sure they could have included a light wieght development platform. Dismissing it out of hand to me shows a lack of thourogh process to identify the pros and cons.

The above is not to say I'm not excited about the OLPC program. I've already pledged to buy 3 (2 for Children and 1 for myself). I just feel we need to be critical of the things we support as well.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By Spinne on 8/14/2006 11:03:01 AM , Rating: 2
Wow! That line of reasoning is almost as entertaining as the da Vinci code!


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By Ringold on 8/14/2006 1:02:08 AM , Rating: 2
Well, the vast majority of the time, debate is good.

In other cases, such as trying to convince a die-hard born-again christian that Adam and Eve did not, in fact, run with dinosaurs and evolution can indeed been seen before our eyes just all arent worth the effort. It'll all go in one ear, not sit well with ingrained rhetoric and life views, and get kicked out the other side.

However, I wouldn't be bold enough to come out totally for or against OLPC 'till we see solid results. The *idea* is the future, absolutely, but if this is it is definitely up for debate. Still, I tend to like it, for no identifiable reason other than it seems cool when applied correctly in an existing system (ie, NOT Nigeria).


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By INeedCache on 8/14/2006 8:41:08 AM , Rating: 2
I do not wish to address religion. However, if evolution is a fact, as you seem to assert, why is it still called a theory? Do you know something the rest of us don't?


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By TomZ on 8/14/2006 9:11:28 AM , Rating: 2
The word "theory" has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on the context and their methodologies. In common usage, people use the word "theory" to signify "conjecture", "speculation", or "opinion." In this sense, "theories" are opposed to "facts" — parts of the world, or claims about the world, that are real or true regardless of what people think.

In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

Disclaimer: I don't claim that Wikipedia is necessarily authoritative, but I do agree with the contents quoted above.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By masher2 (blog) on 8/14/2006 9:57:18 AM , Rating: 2
> "However, if evolution is a fact, as you seem to assert, why is it still called a theory? "

Everything in science is a theory; nothing is ever proven definitely. However, the theory of evolution is supported at least as well as the theory of gravity.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By INeedCache on 8/15/2006 1:53:34 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, supported partially. Some other things don't fit so well. Thus, still a theory, sorry. Just search around the net and you'll find some prominent scientists who say just that. Too much still to be explained. I just think you used a bad analogy. You cannot make fact out of something that isn't proven as such just because you believe it to be true. Just like religion, it's a belief.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By masher2 (blog) on 8/15/2006 9:48:20 AM , Rating: 2
> "Just search around the net and you'll find some prominent scientists who say just that [evolution doesn't work]"

Search the net and you'll find some "promininent scientists" who believe Elvis is living on the dark side of the moon also. Even a few who believe our government is being controlled by alien invaders.

Evolution is fact, supported by more evidence than nearly any other fact in science. Those who call it "just a theory" don't really understand how science works...and don't want to, either.



RE: Shmopyrite issues
By TomZ on 8/15/2006 12:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
It's also pretty well known that in the US, Christian conservatives rounded up a number of "Christian scientists" in order to help out with their "intelligent design" initiative. As masher2 pointed out, you can find scientists that have all sorts of views, and probably not hard to find some that will put their religious beliefs above the scientific evidence.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By FITCamaro on 8/14/2006 3:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
Because we all know how good Asia is about upholding copyrights.

Not trying to be mean, but its true.


RE: Shmopyrite issues
By Christopher1 on 8/15/2006 1:51:09 AM , Rating: 1
True. Some people have problems with regular writing (I am one of them) but can type at about 10-30 words per minute and are very bright.
It is not fair to those who have physical or mental/physical writing problems to label them as 'dumb' just because you cannot read their writing. That was done to me by a few teachers, until my parents took me for an IQ test and found that I had an IQ in the 140's!


.....time to make $$$$
By QooDrink on 8/14/2006 1:19:59 AM , Rating: 2
I'm from thailand, and all i can say is this PM is full of ****. The only reason why he made the proposal is to make profit from it $$$. He already benefitted his company by passing out law n pulling string here n there. His comp grew like 200% each year when he became a PM. WTF! When ppl starting to realize wut he done, he sold the whole thing to company in singapore.

most of educated ppl here want him out, but damn ppl in rural areas still want him. Y? 'cause he always give them stuff like this. better life. this is a big project he will profit from it really big. huge!

this country is full of bribery. thailand is better off w/out this him. shiat




RE: .....time to make $$$$
By Merry on 8/14/2006 6:41:42 AM , Rating: 2
I would have more respect for this post if it were written in english and not 13 year old MSN speak

OMGWTF corrupt ppl... etc *rolls eyes*


RE: .....time to make $$$$
By kyp275 on 8/14/2006 8:04:55 AM , Rating: 2
or you could've realized that english is not his first language?


RE: .....time to make $$$$
By Merry on 8/14/2006 9:02:27 AM , Rating: 2
i'm sorry but even if english is your second language you can still use full words.

I mean its fairly obvious he knew the words he was 'bastardising'(for want of a better word) so why didnt he write them?


RE: .....time to make $$$$
By Merry on 8/14/2006 9:04:03 AM , Rating: 2
i would also like to clarify its just the use WTF, Y and PPL i have a problem with and not anything else.


RE: .....time to make $$$$
By TomZ on 8/14/2006 9:14:26 AM , Rating: 2
I think it's difficult to sort out whether a given poster is too lazy to type complete words or a non-native English speaker that really doesn't know the language too well. IMO it's best to give the benefit of the doubt.


RE: .....time to make $$$$
By Merry on 8/14/2006 9:33:53 AM , Rating: 2
aye i'll go with that. Its just that use of language irritates me.


Whats the point...
By beepandbop on 8/13/06, Rating: 0
RE: Whats the point...
By Ringold on 8/13/2006 10:24:55 PM , Rating: 2
If the books are free, as the article sort of suggests, then $100 for one laptop that'd be used for years could be cheaper depending on what Thailand pays for books already.

Could also be updated easily annually instead of waiting years for a new revision.

Of course, spill a drink on a book and you've lost one book, spill something on a laptop (Depending on how durable these are) and you may be out a more expensive laptop.

I dont know, but this strikes me as a somewhat better plan than Nigeria by far. Thailand isn't a third-world country.. and hell, I remember middle school, I figured my spine would've snapped carrying around those books at some point.

Anyway, the concept is the future. Whether the future can be today for Thailand or not.. we'll be finding out.

Not that I think we're personally qualified to speak much on education as a country ;)


RE: Whats the point...
By Chernobyl68 on 8/14/2006 3:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
having visited it once, I would in fact consider it a third world country.


RE: Whats the point...
By Ringold on 8/13/2006 10:28:54 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and tax money? At least they're spending it on an educational endeavor instead of global war! ;) Jokes aside, if Thailand is anything like Hong Kong capitalism wise, again, no social-security, welfare or medicare-loving American can dare criticize some of those no-frills, personal responsibility oriented governments. Innovation like that, I imagine, they hope will move them closer to American college students, since the few graduates we have are about the only thing we can brag about in terms of educational success. Given a shot at that, money well spent!


RE: Whats the point...
By Shining Arcanine on 8/14/2006 10:21:09 AM , Rating: 2
If a hostile army lands on the island and they have no military, they will have a problem. It is always a problem when you earmark your military budget to pay for other things. Just look at what happened to the Emperor of China. He earmarked the entire military budget to pay for a renovation of one of his palaces and later that year, the Opium war started.


RE: Whats the point...
By masher2 (blog) on 8/14/2006 10:34:20 AM , Rating: 2
> "If a hostile army lands on the island and they have no military..."

The island? Have you confused Thailand with Taiwan?


Education is complex
By giantpandaman2 on 8/14/2006 5:42:18 AM , Rating: 2
Basic food, medicine, and safety are very important, no question. However, I think this issue is far more complex than people are making it out to be.

Simply put, if the children of many of these countries do not get access to computers they won't be able to compete in the global economy when they come of age. They may have a difficulty even working in an automated factory, much less running a business competitive to multinational corporations. To put it simply, without access to computers their education will be insufficient. Well educated countries can make extraordinarily dramatic economic gains, which, eventually, trump simple substicence charity. For example: India. (More about India later.)

It's all well and good for us who throw away computers every few years to say, hey, food, medicine, and safety is where they should focus all of their money. I wholeheartedly agree that those should be where the bulk of money should stay, however technology is going to be extraordinarily important to both students and their countries in the future. Some money needs to be focused on this, otherwise theses students will grow up but have a difficult time running a business in/working in/or understanding the digital economic world.

Personally I hate the name OLPC. The idea of every child needing or deserving a laptop smacks of overidealistic hyperbole which makes the OLPC easy to attack. I disagree that every child needs a laptop. I also think that giving them for free is a bad idea. A laptop, in my opinion, should only be given to those who earn it. Students who score well or who work hard in school. Give it away and it seems like an overpriced toy. (I've seen this in person with kids who are forced to get laptops for school, etc.) Make them earn it and they'll understand the value and responsibility of being given a laptop is. In countries where this is most needed those who get the laptops should be seen as accepting the responsibility to use it well and, since they're given the privilege to learn off something so expensive in their country, should give back to their community once they are successful.

In a sense it should be like scholarships given to students.

Now I mentioned India earlier. It's a country that's made large economic gains, though it still has extremely poor areas. However, it also has a huge concentration of very well educated people. These well educated people are the economic engine of that country. They will do more for India than millions of dollars of donations spent purely on food and health care.

Now a valid counterargument would be that they didn't need a OLPC to do this. True enough, but I'll say that PC's weren't nearly as important to the global economy until 90's with the explosion of the web and information technology. The changes to supply chains, customer management, even business models makes digital companies so much more efficient that non-digital companies can't compete. By the 90's countries like India had a strong education system and had a good deal of intellectuals who understood computers. Hence, they don't really need OLPC's nearly as much as other countries might.

Meh, I guess I'm meandering. To sum up my thoughts:

1. An OLPC should be seen as a scholarship rather than a give to everyone panacea.

2. OLPC's will allow students to cross the digital divide, hopefully making them better business leaders and workers later.

3. Limited amounts of money should be spent on OLPC's or PC's in general for education.

4. The OLPC name, while great for headlines, is a horrible idea if taken literally.




RE: Education is complex
By Spinne on 8/14/2006 11:52:54 AM , Rating: 2
You've got a few good points, but I've gotta point out that a) Computers are pretty easy to learn (my grandmom picked up Windows by herself, and I bet that if he needed to, my Dad could pick up programming). So when you need to use a computer in your business, it's not that hard to learn to do it. As far as writing the software that you'll be using, thats what you pay professionals to do.
b) Computers are inherently less effecient than humans when it comes to a small business because computers are stupid. Whom do you like better, the friendly storekeeper who knows you, or the guy behind a checkout machine? It's only when your clientel gets larger than you can have personal relations with, that computers become more useful.
c) If you argue that OLPCs should be given on a merit basis, then aren't you just handing out OLPCs to those who'll eventually be able to afford a mainstream PC anyway? So the dumb will remain dumb!
d) I don't think your claim of these people not being able to work in an automated factory is on target. Firstly, most industries provide you with training anyway. This is precisely why we diferentiate between people based on job experience - because if someone's been doing a job for ten years, they'll require minimal training as opposed to someone who's right out of college. Secondly, if you're talking about a country in which a large population of the students would be eligable for an OLPC, then I honestly doubt that the industry in the country would be advanced enough to require a knowledge of the PC.
e) You're eventually going to run into digital copyright issues. Beyond a certain level, e-textbooks can't be free and of a high quality. The minute you have e-textbooks that actually cost money, you'll have publishers trying to enforce a digital copy-protection scheme like with music. Thats a whole new can of worms right there.
In any case, consider this, in India, you can buy a legal, authorised, special edition copy of Goldstein for $5, and Goldstein ranks amongst the more expensive texts. A school level book costs about a half of that. I know because when I walked into a bookstore, the prices really surprised me. You might argue that the paper is thin and the books are softbound, so they don't last as long and all that, but quite honestly, even if you can get a few years out of a $5 book, it's better than 20 out of a $100 book because you'll replace the $100 book in less than 20 years with a newer edition anyway.


RE: Education is complex
By giantpandaman2 on 8/14/2006 6:14:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Computers are pretty easy to learn


You're using the paradigm of someone growing up in a wealthy society. If you're from a society that barely has electricity would it be easy to learn how to use a computer? My answer: No. We might just disagree on this point.

quote:
Computers are inherently less efficient than humans when it comes to small business

Let's say you make a grocery store in one of these countries, perhaps even a chain of grocery stores. With some knowledge of computers you can put together a supply chain system, Point of Sale systems, etc. Without it, any multinational can come in and easily bankrupt your business.

quote:
So the dumb will remain dumb!

A PC isn't going to make a "dumb" person smart, it will make computer illiterate person not ignorant. That's the purpose. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean they'll be able to afford a computer in the future. There are plenty of smart people who've never had enough access to education, technical or otherwise, that have difficulty competing with those that do have access to that education.

quote:
D

Automated factories need more than just grunt workers. Repair workers, people who understand how supply chain works, etc. Training is all well and good, but multinational corporations that create good jobs are attracted by an educated workforce. A business will simply not create said automated factory in a location where they have to train everyone from ground zero if there is a better location nearby.

quote:
E
I make no comment about textbooks so your comments don't belong in a response to mine.


that makes sense
By msva124 on 8/14/2006 1:52:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The OLPC project has met some criticism along with its success.


How can it be a success if nobody has gotten one yet?




RE: that makes sense
By msva124 on 8/14/2006 2:00:46 AM , Rating: 2
To clarify, I'm not saying it's a failure. I'm saying that can only be determined once they have been used for a while and we can understand whether they have having positive effects on the children. To call it a success now is like calling the PS3 a success.


GROUND REALITIES !!!!!
By mavdipu on 8/14/2006 4:34:36 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is not with giving free laptops to the poor children of India or any other place.

The problem is that the $100 spent on each of these laptops
can provide:

1. A salary for a TEACHER for a class who can
teach an entire class Vs a laptop for a
child.

2. In some places provide for the cost of books
and stationaries for the entire class.

3. In some places the level of poverty is so
deep that parents send their children to
school just to give them the free meals at
school.

SO GUYS BEFORE THINKING OF GIVING A FREE LAPTOP LETS THEM THINK OF GIVING SOME BASIC education and food 1st.

The entire thing is pointless for a child who doesnt get have enough to EAT in a day...





RE: GROUND REALITIES !!!!!
By Xavian on 8/14/2006 6:08:23 AM , Rating: 2
Thailand is a step above worrying about food, however i think you'd find poverty in the US if you looked for it and the point is every country has those who are in poverty. Thailand isn't a country of mass poverty like nigeria. More like a developing country.

Your reasoning could apply to every country in the world.

I personally believe a laptop and the internet can go a long long way to cutting costs in the long-term. Think about it, instead of printing and buying all those books (one per child or one per two children), get the child a laptop and host the books online so they can view them from there.

It saves the purchasing of books for the entire school and simply allows a child to use the laptop to view these books without buying them or ruining them (they could even download the entire book, while at school onto the laptop for homework purposes). Not the mention the amazing research possibilities of the Internet.


.....
By cciesquare on 8/14/2006 3:31:07 AM , Rating: 2
My opinion is this. Anything can work, if the right things go your way, and you have the right people working for you. You can have an awesome product that is very usefull, but if it is implemented incorrectly or if the people behind it are completely ignorant, then of course you will have total failure.

The success of this project does not depend on the technology itself, but on how it will be implemented successfully. Put the right kind of people in charge of this project and it has a very good chance of succeeding.

So far no one really or anyone or group that I can think of that is willing to take this project and lead it. Again, if this project fails it is the result of not having the right people in charge and also as a result of inaffectivly implementing it. The guy, gal, or group that can take this and make it successful will be very well known, not to mention possibly very rich.

Think about the guy who sold pet rocks. He took something that is absolutely worthless, and convince people that they want it, and made oodddles of money. So far no one is really convince that they need a OLPC or want a OLPC.




GROUND REALITIES !!!!!
By mavdipu on 8/14/2006 4:33:17 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is not with giving free laptops to the poor children of India or any other place.

The problem is that the $100 spent on each of these laptops
can provide:

1. A salary for a TEACHER for a class who can
teach an entire class Vs a laptop for a
child.

2. In some places provide for the cost of books
and stationaries for the entire class.

3. In some places the level of poverty is so
deep that parents send their children just to
give them the free meals at school.

SO GUYS BEFORE THINKING OF GIVING A FREE LAPTOP LETS THEM THINK OF GIVING SOME BASIC education and food 1st.

The entire thing is pointless for a child who doesnt get have enough to EAT in a day...





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