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  (Source: AP)

Wind turbines spin busily outside Wingate, Texas at one of Texas' many wind parks.  (Source: Lm Otero / AP)
Texas is rapidly becoming the U.S. leader in wind generated electricity

With oil prices and fossil fuel prices high, and with federal support of alternative energy expansion programs, wind power is picking up steam.  The west is leading the way with Minnesota, Iowa, Colorado, Texas, California, and Washington all having in excess of 1,000 MW of wind production capacity.

Of all the states, the greatest leader is Texas, with 4.296 GW in capacity -- and it's just warming up.  Texas is not a state many associate with alternative energy.  It leads the country in fossil fuel production, both for oil and natural gas, containing approximately one fourth of known oil reserves in the U.S.  Typically, alternative energy conjures up images of California or Washington; both which do have strong wind programs.

However, these "green" states fall short of dusty Texas in green energy, thanks to the state’s leading commitment to wind power.  And Texas needs it -- Texans consume the most energy in the country, both per capita and as a whole.

Texas plans to aggressively expand its wind capacity.  Among its efforts, it just committed to the largest wind power infrastructure expansion yet, spending billions on power transmission lines to pump power from the park, located in remote but windy west Texas, to urban areas in eastern Texas.  The project will solidify Texas' leadership position in the world of alternative energy, according to Texas officials.

The state's Public Utility Commission Commissioner Paul Hudson, who approved the move, states, "We will add more wind than the 14 states following Texas combined.  I think that's a very extraordinary achievement. Some think we haven't gone far enough, some think we've pushed too far."

Patrick Woodson, vice president of E.On Climate & Renewables North America is among the wind entrepreneurs benefiting from Texans' thirst for wind energy.  His company has 1,200 MW of capacity in operations or planned.  He states, "People think about oil wells and football in Texas, but in 10 years they'll look back and say this was a brilliant thing to do."

Wind power has received a mixed response among the environmental community and from landowners. Some believe the energy source to be an essential step to generating clean energy and moving away from fossil fuel reliance, but others argue that the designs are inefficient, that they interfere with migrating birds, and that they bring down property values by marring the view.  Landowners have protested expansion at Cape Cod in Massachusetts to Idaho and Texas' South Padre Island.

However, the new project is less controversial as it builds no new turbines in desolate west Texas.  Rather it merely seeks to add power lines to better utilize the capacity, sending it to thirsty Texas cities.  From five scenarios ranging from $3B USD to $6.4B USD, the PUC decided on a middle-of-the road scenario of around $4 to 5B USD.  The PUC describes the timeframe stating, "It is expected that the new lines will be in service within four to five years."

Supporters laud the move saying it will encourage wind energy projects, grow jobs, reduce energy costs and reduce pollution.  They're terming the project a "wind energy superhighway".

Citizens will be feeling a bit of financial impact from the project, paying about $4 more, on average, a month on their electrical bills, or about $50 a year.  Tom Smith, director of the Texas office of the consumer advocacy group Public Citizen says $50 a year is a small price to pay for energy independence.

He argues, "We have all these wind plants up and operating. What we're asking for is the superhighway to get the energy to the cities.  This will send signals to manufacturers all across the world Texas is ready to be a world-class player in renewable energy."

Rate increases are expected to be a couple years away.  The increases are no different in structure to those used to pay for power line expansion from traditional fossil-fuel burning plants.  Wind does have the advantage of a 2-cents-per-kilowatt-hour tax credit from the national government, which is due to expire in December.  Congress is currently mulling over a permanent extension.  Tax credit or not, though Texas has made it clear that it seeks to be the dominate leader in the wind power industry.



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Migrating birds
By doctor sam adams on 7/18/2008 2:30:17 PM , Rating: 2
should learn to go around them, no? I'm sure it's not the first time something dangerous has popped up in the middle of a migration path.




RE: Migrating birds
By nosfe on 7/18/2008 2:34:45 PM , Rating: 5
the question is not about migrating its if two European swallows could carry a coconut using a strand of creeper held under the dorsal guiding feathers


RE: Migrating birds
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/18/2008 2:46:10 PM , Rating: 1
Being European will the two work well together or debate on the "better" or "best" way to do it?


RE: Migrating birds
By DASQ on 7/18/2008 3:39:57 PM , Rating: 3
A five ounce bird cannot carry a one pound coconut!


RE: Migrating birds
By KaiserCSS on 7/18/2008 3:43:22 PM , Rating: 2
"If at first you don't succeed, maybe winning just isn't your style."


RE: Migrating birds
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/18/2008 4:21:44 PM , Rating: 2
and a bee can not fly! :)


RE: Migrating birds
By beyazkeyat on 7/18/2008 4:35:51 PM , Rating: 3
It could grip it by the husk!


RE: Migrating birds
By DASQ on 7/18/2008 4:38:20 PM , Rating: 3
It's not a matter o' where 'ee grips it...


RE: Migrating birds
By eye smite on 7/18/2008 5:14:02 PM , Rating: 1
Everything's bigger in Texas man.


RE: Migrating birds
By ImSpartacus on 7/18/2008 7:59:12 PM , Rating: 4
A 20 lbs Texas bird still cannot carry a 50 lbs Texas Coconut.


RE: Migrating birds
By KaiserCSS on 7/19/2008 9:32:48 PM , Rating: 2
I wasn't aware Texas had coconuts...

Damned climate change!


RE: Migrating birds
By nosfe on 7/20/2008 5:10:45 AM , Rating: 2
what? didn't you know that coconuts migrate?


RE: Migrating birds
By onwisconsin on 7/18/2008 5:49:10 PM , Rating: 2
Are you sure it's African or European?


RE: Migrating birds
By TheDoc9 on 7/18/2008 2:43:41 PM , Rating: 4
To me it's how ridiculous they look and how much land that's given up for so little return in electricity. What do we get for this joke? An increased electric bill so T. Boone Pickens can make even more money.


RE: Migrating birds
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/18/2008 2:49:46 PM , Rating: 2
I'd rather pay T.Boone Pickens (sounds like a blues player to me) verse someone in the middle east. Nothing against the middle east, just want to keep business on our home land when possible.


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 4:13:37 PM , Rating: 4
Paying T. Bone $10B versus paying the Middle East $5B for the same amount of energy? The deal is a little less appealing under those terms.

Fortunately, those aren't our only options. A similar investment in nuclear power would net us far more energy, at a substantially lower cost. And it's energy that's available all the time, not just when the wind blows.


RE: Migrating birds
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/18/2008 4:36:59 PM , Rating: 2
Well they were talking $50 per house hold...not a big deal. Keeping funds in USA a very good thing, government not collects tax on $10 billion dollars verse nothing because money going over seas.
I of course am not saying this is best option. Agree, it's time we put up some nuclear power plants...


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 4:57:41 PM , Rating: 5
> "Well they were talking $50 per house hold...not a big deal"

It would be a great deal, if we could truly buy any energy independence with that. However, even ignoring oil and other non-electric sources, the total electric generation capacity of Texas is 110GW. An extra 4GW is a drop in the bucket. Furthermore, I strongly suspect that $50/year figure is just an optimistic assesment of initial costs, and doesn't include maintenance and operating costs, which for wind power are high.

Furthermore, the whole "keep it in the USA" is a bit of a red herring here. This wind power will, if anything, supplant coal...and the US has the largest coal reserves in the world.


RE: Migrating birds
By slashbinslashbash on 7/18/2008 5:37:12 PM , Rating: 4
The $50/year figure is what the Texas Public Utility Commission will charge to build the transmission lines to carry the electricity from the wind farms to the big cities (DFW, Houston, etc.). The wind farms themselves will be funded by other private and public means.


RE: Migrating birds
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/18/2008 5:39:42 PM , Rating: 2
Furthermore, the whole "keep it in the USA" is a bit of a red herring here. This wind power will, if anything, supplant coal...and the US has the largest coal reserves in the world.

OK, benefit...less black lung disease.

Did not think about the coal factor.....


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 8:57:47 PM , Rating: 5
> "OK, benefit...less black lung disease."

If that's really the goal, why not spend the money on nuclear power? It would generate 2-3 more power for the same sum, allowing the retirement of far more coal-fired plants.

Furthermore, no matter how many windmills one builds, you still need conventional sources of power. The wind doesn't blow constantly.


RE: Migrating birds
By RaulF on 7/18/2008 9:40:32 PM , Rating: 1
The biggest thing is that it is clean energy.

No one else notices that?


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/19/2008 1:20:22 AM , Rating: 4
> "The biggest thing is that it is clean energy."

But it's not clean. Producing millions of tons of steel, copper, and concrete isn't a clean process.

Those billions of dolllars spent on even a small wind farm...what do you think that money is spent on? Staggering amounts of resources, mined from the earth in dirty, energy-intensive operations.


RE: Migrating birds
By NullSubroutine on 7/19/2008 3:09:06 AM , Rating: 2
Uh, I have nothing against Glowing* Green (nuclear) energy, but would a large nuclear plant use similar amounts of steel, copper, and concrete? Or at least similar amounts of construction materials?

I lived to next to two coal powerplants my whole life in Iowa just south of Sioux City and I can say coal power plants are very clean with current technology. I've also been inside and around the plants when growing up as my father has worked there for 15-20 years.

All energy methods put out some sort of "pollution" whether in contstruction, descontruction, or operations. It just depends on which "pollution" you are trying to prevent - and that really seems to vary depending on what the media wants to report on.


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/19/2008 11:26:01 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
but would a large nuclear plant use similar amounts of steel, copper, and concrete? Or at least similar amounts of construction materials?
Per megawatt of installed capacity, a nuclear plant uses less than 1/10 the steel and about 1/5 the concrete....and the plant's lifespan is twice as long.


RE: Migrating birds
By phxfreddy on 7/19/2008 10:13:20 PM , Rating: 4
Sorry you are wrong about Nuclear requiring same amount of building materials. Here are the important numbers:

-1- installed base of windpower ( est ) = 8000 MWatts ... that is every windmill installed and added up

-2- output of 1 nuclear plant ( Palo Verde Az ) = 30,000,000 MWatts

Thus total installed windpower = 1/4000 of a single nuclear plant.

Check my numbers but when I looked it all up windpower seems pretty dismal in comparison

http://www.amarketplaceofideas.com/wind-power-is-b...


RE: Migrating birds
By Chernobyl68 on 7/21/2008 3:16:00 PM , Rating: 2
your number for nuclear power plant capacity is off by several orders of magnitude.


RE: Migrating birds
By Calin on 7/21/2008 2:24:51 AM , Rating: 2
There are several reasons:
One nuclear plant is one big point of failure - when it's down (either scheduled or not), there's a big dent in energy production.
While using several reactors might help keeping the downtime at a minimum (5 reactors running at 80% load, or 4 at 100% load and one stopped), this doesn't help with other issues - remember that nuclear reactors use water for cooling, and droughts and heat waves are known to put a dent in nuclear energy production. Texas isn't well known for its access to lots of water usable for cooling. You must understand that thermal efficiency of Texas based thermal electric generators (be it nuclear, coal, steam or gas turbines) are inferior to similar power plants based in Washington, around Chicago and so on.


RE: Migrating birds
By phxfreddy on 7/19/2008 10:09:08 PM , Rating: 3
Problem is we dilute our response to replacing oil by using our efforts to displace coal !!


RE: Migrating birds
By MrPickins on 7/18/2008 6:19:37 PM , Rating: 2
Luckily Texas is also set to recieve the first new nuclear plant in 20 or more years.


RE: Migrating birds
By maverick85wd on 7/19/2008 9:56:29 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
110 [Gigawatts]


Great Scott!

quote:
Furthermore, the whole "keep it in the USA" is a bit of a red herring here. This wind power will, if anything, supplant coal...and the US has the largest coal reserves in the world.


so our coal reserves will last even longer. Sounds good to me, but even as you said,
quote:
An extra 4GW is a drop in the bucket.


I think the point here is that, while innovative, it's not really panning out to be a large-scale solution to the renewable energy question. But at least they're working at it, certainly something can be said of that.


RE: Migrating birds
By Sulphademus on 7/18/2008 4:54:17 PM , Rating: 2
While I am a strong advocate of nuclear power, I see no issue in this. The skyrocketing energy costs may make wind power a viable alternative now or soon. Nuclear does give much better bang for the buck but using barren land without access to a good water supply for wind power is a good idea.

I wouldnt recommend putting these turbines in Cape Cod though. A small oceanic state with a dense population? Nuclear is a much better option.

And huge wind farms in the midwest? They might also want to invest in some of those gigundous spinning disc electricity storage devices linked on DT not long ago and stick em underground. When a twister blows through, they could capture enough juice to more than make up the turbine replacement costs.


RE: Migrating birds
By Fluxion on 7/18/2008 6:35:04 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly, given the desire and willingness to provide a means for adequate water, a nuclear power plant can essentially be located anywhere. I live about 30 miles away from the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station, and the station uses reprocessed waste water for its cooling needs.


RE: Migrating birds
By NullSubroutine on 7/19/2008 3:10:47 AM , Rating: 2
Actually I believe wind turbines shut down when wind gets too excessive.


RE: Migrating birds
By StevoLincolnite on 7/19/2008 11:16:06 AM , Rating: 2
They do, I live near the Cathedral Rocks wind farm in South Australia which has 33 Wind Turbines which generate 2 MW each, more often than not they shut down because of strong winds than lack-there-of.

Taken from the Almighty wiki:

quote:
As a general rule, wind generators are practical where the average wind speed is 10 mph (16 km/h or 4.5 m/s) or greater. An 'ideal' location would have a near constant flow of non-turbulent wind throughout the year with a minimum likelihood of sudden powerful bursts of wind


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_farm

Also here where the Wind farms are located, they have actually restored the coastline to what it was before it became farm-land, and where the actual wind-farms are the ground is used for Agriculture so really the land isn't missing out on much, as it was plainly agriculture before hand anyhow.

It's actually a rather nice sight going out to the sand dunes and seeing the Windfarms off in the distance, then again I'm amazed by any building that is larger than a few stories as I live in a rather small city.


RE: Migrating birds
By 306maxi on 7/20/2008 4:23:13 AM , Rating: 2
Yup. I live by the North Hoyle offshore wind farm in Wales and they're a great sight. Some people who like to be a stick in the mud complain that they ruin the view but we hardly have a great coastline here.


RE: Migrating birds
By Fluxion on 7/18/2008 6:30:51 PM , Rating: 3
Unfortunately, I think too many people still fear the idea of a major incident at a power plant occurring. It's rather unfortunate really, given how safe and efficient current-generation reactors are.


RE: Migrating birds
By 1prophet on 7/18/2008 6:51:17 PM , Rating: 2
Are you factoring in the wars, current and present in the middle east?


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 8:39:48 PM , Rating: 3
What in the world does the Middle East have to do with a US expansion of nuclear power?


RE: Migrating birds
By ElFenix on 7/19/2008 6:09:30 PM , Rating: 2
he was quoting your 10 billion vs. 5 billion post.


RE: Migrating birds
By blwest on 7/19/08, Rating: 0
RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/19/2008 12:03:06 PM , Rating: 4
> "I might have to give up something, but at least I'm supporting an AMERICAN with my AMERICAN dollar; not some country that believes that women are 3rd class citizens. "

Besides the fact that wind power will never give us energy independence, you ignore the fact that these turbines will simply supplant a little coal or nuclear power...neither of which are supplied from the Middle East.

> "It only takes $20 of materials of that $5B for a terrorist to blow your @ss into little pieces."

And windmills will somehow stop terrorists from obtaining $20 to "blow your @ass" up?


RE: Migrating birds
By ggordonliddy on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Migrating birds
By mles1551 on 7/18/2008 3:00:12 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
how much land that's given up for so little return


Have you been to West Texas? If you haven't maybe you should and then rethink your opinion. The entire southwestern corner of Texas is very sparsely populated.
Plus only a very small area around the base of the wind turbine is taken up.


RE: Migrating birds
By TheDoc9 on 7/18/2008 4:25:43 PM , Rating: 1
I agree it's small per turbine, but T. Boone is building a farm of 200,000 acres plus.

Yes, I've been there and while not full of life it's not a desert either. What I was alluding to is that there are other forms of energy that take up far less space and offer for more return - but this article isn't about that.

In all it's nice to see this source of power being used, but I believe it should remain a small percentage of our power supply as it's more of a novelty.


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 5:16:56 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
> "I agree it's small per turbine, but T. Boone is building a farm of 200,000 acres plus.

Yes, I've been there and while not full of life it's not a desert either. "
There's certainly far more life there than there is in ANWR...and these thousands of massive turbines will certainly disturb the natural environment far more than a few derricks would mar the Arctic tundra.


RE: Migrating birds
By StevoLincolnite on 7/19/2008 11:18:11 AM , Rating: 2
Once the wind-farms are up and running there will probably be conservation programs up and running, the Windfarms themselves actually use up very little land space, thus the land around the actual turbines is often used for Agriculture.


RE: Migrating birds
By slashbinslashbash on 7/18/2008 5:33:41 PM , Rating: 3
Just to make a minor correction, when people talk about "West Texas" they aren't necessarily talking about the southwest corner, down in the Big Bend / El Paso area. They are talking basically about the whole western half of the state. Texas geography gets kind of weird:

North Texas: Dallas / Fort Worth area, and north to the Oklahoma border; west to Wichita Falls
South Texas: south of San Antonio
East Texas: Draw a line running north/south through Houston. Anything east of that line is East Texas.
Central Texas: Austin, San Antonio, Waco, extending west approximately to San Angelo.
Gulf Coast: Obvious.
West Texas: Everything else. Basically you can draw a line north/south through Abilene, and anything west of that is in West Texas (even the part that you might think should technically be called North Texas). The current biggest "West Texas Wind Farms" are in the area just west of Abilene, near the town called Sweetwater, in Nolan County. The T. Boone Pickens proposed wind farm is in the very northeastern part of the Texas Panhandle, northeast of Amarillo. Yes, some people count the Panhandle as a separate region, but it is often lumped in with the rest of West Texas.


RE: Migrating birds
By daftrok on 7/18/2008 3:43:45 PM , Rating: 1
You're not thinking of the obvious benefits:
1) No emissions.
2) Long term benefits (unlike oil reserves it won't just magically run out of wind)
3) The more you build, the more efficient it gets. Remember how cars in the 60s and 70s get like 10-20 mpg? Now we have hybrid engines that give us at least 45 mpg. So the more we develop it, the more efficient we can make it (less friction loss on its spin so that it spins faster and generates more electricity, better electricity transfer from windmills to generators,etc.)
4) The more you build, the cheaper it gets. That's simple enough. Prime example are gaming consoles. The PS3 used to cost 600 bucks and a year and a half later its 400 bucks and takes less power to run it.
5) Less reliance on coal mines. Coal mines are a dangerous place to work. If we can cut down the number of coal mines, it can open opportunities to open up for safer jobs.

So in the end, its a slightly rough transition but the long term benefits are highly apparent. And who knows? Maybe someone can make a low energy high frequency sound device that can make birds avert the spinning windmills....oh wait!
http://www.bird-x.com/products/sbxpel.html


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 4:12:08 PM , Rating: 5
> "1) No emissions"

Do you think you can produce millions of tons of steel with no emissions? By some estimates, powering even half the US's energy needs with wind would require over 25% of the world's steel production.

> "(unlike oil reserves it won't just magically run out of wind)"

Eh? When the wind stops, the power does also. Texas has already had one major outage due to a widespread loss of wind:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2...

> "The more you build, the cheaper it gets. That's simple enough. Prime example are gaming consoles."

Err, windmills are not electronics. You don't get the same benefits of scale you do from lithography. While some economies of scale do exist, there is also the counterbalancing effect of high demand. A huge investment in wind power will cause the price of steel and many other commodities to rise, not fall.

Wind power is substantially more expensive than nuclear, and will continue to be for the foreseable future.


RE: Migrating birds
By mthambi on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Migrating birds
By 67STANG on 7/18/08, Rating: -1
RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 5:15:24 PM , Rating: 4
> "Really his point is moot as they aren't expanding nuclear power production... "

Eh? The point isn't moot as long as we have the need for energy, and nuclear remains the most practical alternative.

"They" in the US aren't expanding nuclear power production because of an uneducated populace believes nuclear power is dirty and dangerous, and thinks we can fill all our energy needs with wind and solar.


RE: Migrating birds
By Pirks on 7/18/2008 6:00:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
uneducated populace believes nuclear power is dirty and dangerous
I understand this part but why is the American government as uneducated as the Americans themselves? Didn't the ruling elite attend universities? Couldn't they hire knowledgeable experts who'd tell them about nuclear being most cost effective AND the most eco-friendly option at the same time?

I mean, who the hell is stopping the GOVERNMENT to do proper thing? Are you telling us that the American government is as dumb as the Americans themselsves, but this contradicts the common and widespread view that intellectual level of the ruling elite is USUALLY somewhat higher than of a common Joe they rule. Could you explain this contradiction please?


RE: Migrating birds
By Fluxion on 7/18/2008 6:41:23 PM , Rating: 5
Most politicians are concerned with one thing: retaining their position. So whether or not they believe in certain stances, they'll often follow what they believe the residents of their state/district/etc., in order to remain a Representative/Congressman, etc.

It's also important to realize that many politicians are simply individuals who got to where they are due to the right connections, money, personality or any combination of the prior. Am I saying some don't deserve to be there, and that there aren't good politicians currently? Of course not. But in general, I would say most are primarily watching out for agenda #1: themselves.

And as far as education goes, I think we don't have to look any further than our current President, to see that even a degree from a Prestigious institution doesn't necessarily mean anything...


RE: Migrating birds
By Fluxion on 7/18/2008 6:43:09 PM , Rating: 2
It should read, "follow what they believe the residents of their state/district/etc. desire"


RE: Migrating birds
By iNGEN on 7/19/2008 10:19:10 AM , Rating: 4
Careerism stops politicians from doing the "proper" thing. The founders of this country never expected anyone would want to serve in Congress for more than a term or two at a time. That small mistake has left us with a "ruling elite" that are far more concerned with gaining and retaining influence than with protecting and empowering the people of The United States.

People in elected office often do what gets the most favorable response at that polls, not what is most in their constituents interests.


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/22/2008 3:40:27 AM , Rating: 2
Its called democracy, the best thing since sliced cheese!
If the majority rules , then a poly will only go that way.
I think the environmental and waste issues have won over the majority. I don't see any form of resolution of the problems occuring anytime soon. Therfore its all Vapourware.
To say its ignorance smacks of communist style arrogance.


RE: Migrating birds
By weskurtz0081 on 7/22/2008 11:35:13 AM , Rating: 2
Since when has the US been a Democracy?


RE: Migrating birds
By 67STANG on 7/18/08, Rating: 0
RE: Migrating birds
By Fluxion on 7/18/2008 6:46:04 PM , Rating: 2
Honestly? Because it's a good PR statement. It tells their customers/competing companies/the rest of the US, "Hey, look at us, we're trying to be environmentally friendly, by promoting alternative sources of fuel."

In reality, it's such a small amount of electricity compared to what other power plants produce, it's not going to have much impact.

And they build new power plants because when the word "nuclear power plant" or "nuclear reactor" comes to mind, people's minds jump to "Three Mile Island" or "Chernobyl", and started protesting against a new plant being put "in their backyard".


RE: Migrating birds
By Solandri on 7/18/2008 7:07:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Rate me down all you want, but the point is still moot. They are building what.. 1 nuclear power plant right now?... the first in decades.. How is it a practical alternative?

It's impractical because we have regulations on nuclear power that are far more stringent than just about anything else we do. There are materials you can buy in a corner drugstore that are radioactive enough that in a nuclear power plant they'd trigger a full shutdown. Our coal plants currently put out as exhaust approx 3x the uranium and over 100x the radiation than the uranium that would be used inside an equivalent nuclear plant. Basically it's impractical because we decided to make it legally impractical, not because of engineering or financial reasons. The risk-to-regulation ratio is completely screwed up with nuclear in the U.S. due to a conflagration of environmental interests with anti-nuclear weapons sentiment.
quote:
The public doesn't have the final say in what gets built. Utilities and the government have the final say. Do you actually think companies like BP and Edison would "throw their money away" on renewable energy for no reason? Don't you think they'd be lobbying hard for Nuclear power? How could they possibly offer Wind as power source if it was so unreliable and not cost effective? Why would they?
Right now there are a lot of incentives and subsidies for alternative power generation. Generally these are not a bad thing. But the idea is that they will spur development and advances which reduce the cost of operation to where it is competitive on its own merits. However, such improvements in efficiency are not guaranteed, especially for something like wind where the primary scale of the endeavor is outside of your control (i.e. you need to tap a large volume of air to get power - there's no way to make it smaller). You cannot take cost decisions made in the presence of these incentives, and assume that the projects will remain cost-effective when those incentives disappear.

It's the same argument with oil. Now that oil is at $140/bbl, a field that would've cost $100/bbl to drill suddenly becomes economically viable. But if the price should drop below $100/bbl, suddenly the field is a money loser and any capital you've spent to drill there is money down the drain. The government incentives for alternative energies are like a government guarantee that oil will remain at $140 for X years. Power companies can then do the math and decide the project will be worth it for those X years. But it's no guarantee that the project will be viable afterwards.

In fact, the construction of those projects isn't even the goal of those incentives. The real goal is advancing the technology so future projects will become more cost effective. Kinda the opposite of what we've been doing with nuclear.


RE: Migrating birds
By 67STANG on 7/18/2008 11:57:56 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It's impractical because we have regulations on nuclear power that are far more stringent than just about anything else we do. There are materials you can buy in a corner drugstore that are radioactive enough that in a nuclear power plant they'd trigger a full shutdown. Our coal plants currently put out as exhaust approx 3x the uranium and over 100x the radiation than the uranium that would be used inside an equivalent nuclear plant. Basically it's impractical because we decided to make it legally impractical, not because of engineering or financial reasons. The risk-to-regulation ratio is completely screwed up with nuclear in the U.S. due to a conflagration of environmental interests with anti-nuclear weapons sentiment.


Good, then I'm glad we agree it is impractical-- at least until there are major changes in regulations.

quote:
Right now there are a lot of incentives and subsidies for alternative power generation. Generally these are not a bad thing. But the idea is that they will spur development and advances which reduce the cost of operation to where it is competitive on its own merits. However, such improvements in efficiency are not guaranteed, especially for something like wind where the primary scale of the endeavor is outside of your control (i.e. you need to tap a large volume of air to get power - there's no way to make it smaller). You cannot take cost decisions made in the presence of these incentives, and assume that the projects will remain cost-effective when those incentives disappear.


That's true, to an extent. But you have to look at other countries as well. Not all of them are quite as generous as the US with wind/renewable incentives, yet they are still building a lot of wind farms.

Wind projects are rated on a availability percentage, promised to whoever is buying the power. If the power ever drops below that availability level, the owner(s) of the turbines actually pays the utilities fines and penalties according to a pre-arranged contract.


RE: Migrating birds
By Solandri on 7/19/2008 7:26:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Good, then I'm glad we agree it is impractical-- at least until there are major changes in regulations.
So you're agreed the only reason it's impractical is legal? Then quit dismissing nuclear power as impractical and get started working on getting those laws changed, like I and others are doing here by correcting misconceptions held by non-technical people.
quote:
That's true, to an extent. But you have to look at other countries as well. Not all of them are quite as generous as the US with wind/renewable incentives, yet they are still building a lot of wind farms.

I have nothing against wind power. Given the right geographic and atmospheric conditions, it works great. Spain gets 10% of their electricity from wind. They're at the right latitude on the East coast of the Atlantic to pick up very strong and consistent trade winds.

I'm merely cautioning that wind power is not a panacea, and unlike hydro it's a lot easier to find yourself into situations where it's not cost-effective. Don't expect it to work anywhere and everywhere. (Texas is actually a good place to be building these.) The only country with more wind generation capacity than the U.S. is Germany, and they banned nuclear power, leaving them short of electricity, forcing them to buy it from France, which generates 80% of theirs from nuclear.


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/18/2008 8:45:12 PM , Rating: 2
> " They are building what.. 1 nuclear power plant right now?... the first in decades.. How is it a practical alternative?"

Your statement makes no sense. It's a practical alternative because we have the ability to build as many as we need.

> " Do you actually think companies like BP and Edison would "throw their money away" on renewable energy for no reason?"

There isn't a utility in the world that doesn't realize wind and solar is far more expensive than conventional alternatives. But what do they care? They're effectively guaranteed a profit by state regulatory boards. They're more than willing to bow to public opinion and build wind and solar farms. What extra costs aren't being borne by government subsidies, are simply passed on to the consumer.


RE: Migrating birds
By 67STANG on 7/18/2008 11:51:18 PM , Rating: 2
I never said it wasn't practical. I said it wasn't a practical alternative. Obviously, if it were an alternative, they would have built more than 0 in the last 2 decades... Make sense now?

There isn't a utility in the world that isn't looking at their bottom line and profit. If they would make tons of cash extra on Nuclear power-- or if it were cheaper for that matter, they'd do it. Plain and simple.


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/19/2008 1:16:52 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
"I never said it wasn't practical. I said it wasn't a practical alternative. Obviously, if it were an alternative, they would have built more than 0 in the last 2 decades... Make sense now?"
None whatsoever, sorry. It sounds like you're debating the meaning of the word "if". Nuclear power is more than just a practical alternative; it's *the* most practical of all our alternatives.

quote:
If they would make tons of cash extra on Nuclear power-- or if it were cheaper for that matter, they'd do it
Again, you're making no sense whatsoever. There is no question that nuclear power is substantially cheaper than wind and solar. None. The figures are a matter of public record.

In the very best of locations, wind power runs about 5-7 c/kw-h...but that includes federal and state subsidies, which run anywhere from 1.5 up to 3 c kW-h. In non prime locations, wind power can run double that cost. And, worse of all, if you want to use wind power for anything but a supplemental source, you need some means of energy storage...and that costs from 3-10 times more than the base kW-h cost.

Wind power also requires a much greater cost for transmission lines, due both to the size of the farms, and the widely varying output (the lines must be sized for peak, ensuring underutilization). Look at the figures in this article -- $50/year for every person in the state of Texas -- not to build the farm, but just for extra transmission lines. And this is just for one farm, less than 4% of what the state needs.

Nuclear power, on the other hand, runs from 4-7 c/kW-h, with no subsidies whatsoever. That's also the cost to run our current generation of plants, which are 40 year old technology. We have newer designs on the books: far more efficient, cleaner, and safer. But little interest in building them, thanks to a public which displays an ignorant fear of all things nuclear.


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/19/08, Rating: 0
RE: Migrating birds
By weskurtz0081 on 7/19/2008 1:48:04 PM , Rating: 2
You know what is funny.... you were the perfect example of the ignorance masher was talking about.

1) A new reactor has actually been developed that produces 0, yes, it produce NO nuclear waste. It turns the nuclear waste into INERT glass..... there goes that waste storage problem.... what what are we going to do with all that GLASS?! OH NO!!

2)There is not enough Uranium in a modern reactor to actually cause the type of meltdown you (see: ignorant people) think of when you talk about the pending "disaster" all of the time. It just CANNOT happen with these newer reactors. Sure, with those ultra-modern reactors designed back in the 60's and 70's.

Oh, and they might not have built a NEW nuclear plant, but they have been adding reactor's to existing plants, pushing us to over 100 reactors in the US.... OH NO!!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!

Come on man, the technology is there, the need is there, but the people are to scared.....


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/19/2008 7:38:20 PM , Rating: 1
No , man , I am applying the same methodology as Masher2. Only the tables are turned and you glow boys can't handle it. YOU STILL don't have the answers. Its always" they are there" or its coming. I say its all bull
"IT CANNOT HAPPEN"..... How fucking arrogant is that!
THATS WHAT SCARES ME


RE: Migrating birds
By weskurtz0081 on 7/20/2008 12:27:05 AM , Rating: 2
"Glow Boys" is pretty funny (not being sarcastic either). When I say it cannot happen, what I am saying is, there is not enough material used in the process to blow up because the new reactors don't require as much Uranium. So, it's physically impossible for it to blow up like that, there just isn't enough Uranium being used for that to happen. Fact is, the US has over 100 reactors, how many have melted down? Hell, how many reactor meltdowns have we had in the US since 1980?


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 8:53:35 AM , Rating: 1
What about all the other weaknesses in the chain. Isn't any form of human control prone to stuff-ups? Loading the stuff and transporting it leaves avenues for accidents.
You don't need a meltdown to create any number of catastrophic scenarios which could cause the facility to be abandonded. But it still doesn't answer the basics like storage of waste for hundreds of years. Are you saying that there will never be an accident over hundreds of years? Assuming society remains stable for that period of time .
For nuclear to be accepted, it needs to be proven to be safe in all areas AND seen to be safe in all areas. By calling people who disagree ignorant or fearful, ain't gonna win any friends at all! Thats why I laugh. Keep being arrogant and nuclear really ain't going anywhere. Its up to the nuclear industry to PROVE its worth. So far they haven't.
My gripe is that the glowboys haven't even got to first base in providing real figures , yet put shit on EVERYTHING else. I am not pro or against nuclear. I can see situations where it would be ideal. I like to think that research is continuing and that one day solutions may be found. But its so far out there, without hard solutions right here, right now, I still say Why bother.
Glowboys is VERY funny, best putdown I have ever invented.


RE: Migrating birds
By weskurtz0081 on 7/20/2008 1:25:26 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know if I would call it a put down, it's just funny more than anything. A good put down would actually make the person being "put down" upset, and since the term "glowboy" was being aimed at me, and I thought it was rather humorous, I don't think it can be classified as a put down.


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 9:02:46 AM , Rating: 2
Also, you say there will be no waste, just glass and hey presto problem solved? The obvious questions are 1/ where do you put the glass AND where do you put the current stockpile? 2/ Not all plants will be converted to "new type" for a very long time thus putting out more waste
These are the fundamental questions I ask, yet I am told I am ignorant etc etc. Then tell me, why do I get no answers when its obvious nothing is being done about the current waste buildup!


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 9:08:38 AM , Rating: 2
Also, if its so good, why is your country trying to stop IRAN from building nuclear power stations? And if you "have " to invade, which facility will be safe from their loony fringe? I think its better to leave pandora in the box!


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 10:05:33 AM , Rating: 2
Also, I just got some interesting figures about the cost of waste storage at Yucca mountain.
The projected costs for 1981 -2117 (136 years ) was $58BILLION. A very old figure indeed! Just imagine what it would be for 1,000 years $580 billion. Do these figures make anyone else think the true costs of nuclear power haven't been factored in properly? The latest figures are $90 billion AND rising! $900billion over 1000yrs. ASSUMING no problems for the period. Stick a sock in that , masher2
I bet you can get a lot of solar energy for that money.


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 10:22:42 AM , Rating: 2
Also got some useful info from your government. It spent 14 BILLION dollars on subidies to the nuclear industry per year over the last 4 years. It makes the few million in subsidies to solar look pretty mean. Any one else still beleive all the crap about the home of the free and the brave?


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 10:37:54 AM , Rating: 2
Cleaning up the Hanford Nuclear Weapons reactor in England is estimated to cost 5.8 billion pounds but may cost 2-3 times as much. (2 us dollars per pound ). Estimates are only ever estimates because no one has decomissioned one yet. Any one see a pattern in all these hugh cost yet? Nuclear costs a hell of a lot more than what he glow boys are peddling.


RE: Migrating birds
By masher2 (blog) on 7/20/2008 10:26:56 AM , Rating: 2
> "Loading the stuff and transporting it leaves avenues for accidents."

Loading and transporting chlorine, mercury, or any other industrial toxin leaves an avenue for an accident as well. Somehow we still manage. And personally, I'd much rather have a truck hauling uranium through my neighborhood than one carrying deadly chlorine gas.

> "Not all plants will be converted to "new type" for a very long time thus putting out more waste"

So? Their radioactive waste can be burned as fuel in the new reactor types, solving that problem handily.

> "Also, if its so good, why is your country trying to stop IRAN from building nuclear power stations? "

Because Iran isn't trying to build nuclear power plants. It's trying to build nuclear weapons.

> "The projected costs for 1981 -2117 (136 years ) was $58BILLION."

Hrm, $58B spread over 136 years is $400 million a year. Powering our nation off wind and solar would require a multi-trillion dollar investment, and several hundreds of billions a year just in maintenance.

I'll take the nuclear option, thanks.

> "Glowboys is VERY funny, best putdown I have ever invented. "

I feel sorry for you then.


RE: Migrating birds
By andrinoaa on 7/20/2008 10:44:05 AM , Rating: 2
Are you saying there will never be an accident?
Those new plants haven't been built yet,if ever what happens in the mean time?
Its ok for your country to run nuclear weapons off the nuclear cycle but not others?
Don't need to feel sorry, just admit nuclear has a major down side. Then I may stop jumping on you.
Why do you hate everything except nuclear?


RE: Migrating birds
By weskurtz0081 on 7/20/2008 12:33:13 PM , Rating: 2