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Suddenly the class action settlement doesn't look so good

San Diego County Superior Court Judge Timothy Taylor granted five states -- including California and Texas -- more time for the consideration of whether or not the states will object of class action settlement between Honda and owners of some of the automakers hybrid vehicles. The interest of at least one of the states was piqued when Heather Peters was recently awarded $9867 in small claims court. That case will certainly be appealed by Honda.
 
Peters took Honda to small claims court alleging that Honda had misled owners of the Civic Hybrid by using fuel economy numbers in their marketing that were unattainable in the real world. Peters took the small claims court because Honda would be barred from bringing attorneys to fight.
 
The five states that have asked for more time to consider objecting to a proposed class-action suit that Peters opted out of include California, Iowa, Massachusetts, Texas, and Washington.
 
The proposed class-action settlement between Honda and owners of some of its hybrid vehicles would see each member of the class getting a few hundred dollars and up to $1500 in rebates towards purchase of a new Honda. It would seem that the states are considering an objection because the settlement is clearly not as good as what Peters won in small claims court.
 
While Judge Taylor granted the states the extra time requested to consider objecting, he did chastise the states for not objecting until a couple of days before the deadline when other states were able to enter their objections early.
 
Judge Taylor said, "They managed to get theirs in on time. I don't see why you can't."
 
California Deputy Attorney General Albert Sheldon said it meant that the victory won by Peters in small claims court in Los Angeles caught their attention.

Source: Detroit News


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All three of my honda's failed to meet sticker MPG
By Lord 666 on 2/16/2012 10:37:27 AM , Rating: 2
1998 Civic HX 5 speed - Sticker was 36/44 and never got over high 30's on exclusive highway driving.

2002 Accord V6 auto - Sticker was 20/28 with the acutal being lower. Noticed transmission issues the second week I bought it, but Honda didn't find anything. When it finally failed after the warranty expired around 60,000 miles, they comp'd the transmission, but I paid for labor. The transmission went again, but after I sold it to a buddy with 160,000 miles.

2005 CRV AWD - Sticker was 22/26 with the actual being lower. Biggest PoS ever owned

All of the vehicles were purchased new. Have since moved away from Honda.




By Marlin1975 on 2/16/2012 10:50:00 AM , Rating: 2
Could be the area you live in. In higher climate places that are not flat its harder on a car (air and angle). Let alone driving habits if you came from a V8/V6 car to a 4cyl you may drive harder for the same performance.

In this case the Civic Hybrid had issues. The batteries were buring out and costing Honda a lot of money. So they "upgraded" the computer and the batteries lasted longer but the gas milage dropped a lot.


By Just Tom on 2/16/2012 12:58:43 PM , Rating: 2
The lemon law states that the seller would have to refund the full cost of the car which is significantly less than what she recieved.


By Marlin1975 on 2/16/2012 1:41:43 PM , Rating: 2
Stop posting on stuff you have no idea about, so in other words just stop posting.

"The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer."

RTFA


By Just Tom on 2/16/2012 4:09:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Stop posting on stuff you have no idea about, so in other words just stop posting.

"The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer."


Take your own advice. The California lemon law is applicable within the written warranty period. So if your warranty is 3 years it is good for 3 years.

From the California Office of the Attorney General website.

quote:
The law applies for the entire period of your warranty. For example, if your vehicle is covered by a three-year warranty and you discover a defect after two years, the manufacturer will have to replace the vehicle or reimburse you as outlined above if the manufacturer or its representative is unable to conform the vehicle to the express warranty after a reasonable number of attempts to do so.


http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon


By Marlin1975 on 2/17/2012 7:27:34 AM , Rating: 2
RTFA

Her car a "2006 Honda Civic".

What lemon law covers a car 6 years later? Also what would the defect be? Bad gas milage is a sympton, not a replacable part.


By Just Tom on 2/17/2012 9:22:43 AM , Rating: 1
I read the article, I also read your comment which I will repeat since you have short term memory loss. I never stated that the car should be covered by the lemon law, I replied to your post with made up information.

quote:
"The "Lemon Law" applies to these problems if they arise during the first 18 months after the consumer received delivery of the vehicle or within the first 18,000 miles on the odometer."


This is totally and completely wrong. Maybe you should read the fucking law.

quote:
What lemon law covers a car 6 years later? Also what would the defect be? Bad gas milage is a sympton, not a replacable part.


Read the fucking lawsuit. Peters sued because Honda deliberately adjusted how the engine in those Hondas performed in order to not have to replace batteries that were failing within the warranty period. This is the reason she, and thousands of others, were getting substandard gas mileage. Honda is on record admitting they did this, they settled a class action suit admitting blame. The only difference with Peters is she opted out of the suit and sued on her own behalf.


By michael67 on 2/16/2012 11:42:32 AM , Rating: 1
Actually, coming from pancake flat mostly below sea level Holland, and now living in mountainis Norway, is see little difference in fuel consumption.

The extra fuel use to drive up gets equalized, when driving down.
Unless you have to break or gear down to prevent speeding

Also modern cars adjust for height, as exhaust gasses are being measured, and then the fuel ratio be adjusted accordingly.


By aebiv on 2/16/2012 12:38:20 PM , Rating: 2
Still though, the engine acts as a giant air pump, and the thinner the air is (higher elevation) the harder the engine has to work to achieve the same amount of power.

Going from sea level, to 10,000 ft elevation, that engine cannot acquire as much air when the piston travels down to suck in the air. Sure, it adjusts the fuel to not run rich, but that doesn't mean it is as efficient as it would be at sea level.

It is one of the main reasons back in the 90's that cars like SAAB were so popular in areas such as Denver Colorado, the turbo charger helped the engine achieve more air per revolution than it would without the turbo.


By Lord 666 on 2/16/2012 1:11:40 PM , Rating: 2
I live sea level in NJ. Other than the Accord and a 300zx turbo, have only owned 4 cylinders. Have always believed in fuel economy not for environmental reasons, but just because I am cheap and cannot justify spending more for getting point a to b.

In comparison, the 2006 Jetta TDI I own now exceeds the sticker mpg of 36/42.


By Lord 666 on 2/16/2012 1:16:08 PM , Rating: 2
The primary reasons why I sold the accord is the side impact was a death trap to the rear seat occupants and because of the poor fuel economy.

Wish there was an edit button...


By kattanna on 2/16/2012 2:55:51 PM , Rating: 2
I was always under the impression that those MPG numbers where a bit fabricated anyways. all done in some controlled lab where the car doesnt actually move but rests instead on rollers, like you see when you get your vehicle smogged.


By Jedi2155 on 2/16/2012 10:49:51 PM , Rating: 2
I have 3.5 years of gas/drive data on my 2003 Honda Civic LX, EPA rated at 25/34/29 City/Hwy/Combined. My average over 32,000 miles has been about 35-36 MPG peaking at 40 MPG on a single tank. My driving style has been 60-75 MPH typical 20% City/80% Hwy.

I have since switched to a Volt and I'm loving it.
https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/578


By rich876 on 2/17/2012 9:40:26 AM , Rating: 2
Honda and Toyota are the biggest over-rated car brands on the market. I also learned the hard way years ago when I bought a Toyota. Blame Consumer Reports for this hype of quality. I had more problems with that car than any other cars I've owned. Got rid of it with with 25k miles on it.


Sue the EPA!
By tayb on 2/16/2012 1:13:03 PM , Rating: 2
Am I wrong or is Honda being sued for a mistake the EPA apparently made. As far as I know Honda wasn't advertising anything but EPA estimated MPG. I understand people being pissedd off about being misled but from my perspective Honda didn't mislead anyone, the EPA did.

Now, I'll put on my tinfoil hat here and say that it's likely the EPA is in bed with the auto dealers but that's based on 0% evidence and 100% conjecture (that's based on 0 evidence).

So... in conclusion... DOWN WITH THE EPA!




RE: Sue the EPA!
By Marlin1975 on 2/16/2012 1:38:44 PM , Rating: 2
RTFA the EPA did not test this or most cars, the car makers do and then send the results to the EPA. The EPA will audit about 10-15% of cars.

The rating is what honda said it could do and it did it, till they updated the computer.


RE: Sue the EPA!
By tayb on 2/16/2012 1:38:50 PM , Rating: 2
Where in the article does it say that? If that is true then the blame still belongs on the EPA for certifying these bad numbers.


RE: Sue the EPA!
By Keeir on 2/16/2012 2:37:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The rating is what honda said it could do and it did it, till they updated the computer.


They why not test it? I haven't seen any indepenant tests done... just people's word.


RE: Sue the EPA!
By Samus on 2/16/2012 4:10:07 PM , Rating: 2
My 2010 Ford Escape never met its EPA estimates until Ford updated the transmission computers in a service bulletin created out of consumer complaints as to harsh shifting, gear hunting and terrible overall performance.

I never had a complaint about the transmission but when I was in for an oil change I was offered the update to improve customer satisfaction.

It now exceeds its window sticker estimate. It was rated at 29MPG highway, and I got 31MPG on my most recent drive to Michigan. The last time I took that drive, in the Fall, the weather was similar and I drove the same speed and only got 28MPG.

Honda should just fix the computer problem.


RE: Sue the EPA!
By Keeir on 2/16/2012 4:47:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Honda should just fix the computer problem.


It hasn't really been shown that there is a problem. Ford "fixed" your ability to get EPA ratings, but that wasn't their intention (accord to you). This just shows the YMMV concept in action.

If the contention is that Honda made a update to the computer code such that the car is unable to achievable the pre-2008 EPA testing results... this is fine. Test it! Its not like its super secret rating system.


RE: Sue the EPA!
By DT_Reader on 2/16/2012 5:38:57 PM , Rating: 2
The process is not so simple. I once worked in the Oldsmobile emissions test lab, so I know the drill:

The car makers build and test prototypes with hardware like that in the (to be) production models. These prototypes do not have to meet the emissions standards, they just have to be made with production quality hardware. The makers drive these prototypes 50,000 miles on a dynamometer following a strict EPA-designed schedule (a set mix of speeding up, slowing down, stopping, starting, cruising, etc.). They have to start testing long before production begins. This phase of testing is just to determine how much the emissions degrade over 50,000 miles (how much the hardware wears out).

Next, they make some pre-production cars with the production software and mechanical adjustments (idle speed, etc.). Those are tested on a similar EPA-designated schedule over a much shorter distance, and the previously calculated degradation factor is applied to the emissions results to estimate the emissions at the end of 50,000 miles. The car has to AVERAGE below the EPA emissions standards for that model year. So if the car starts emitting 1 gram//mile and ends up emitting 2 grams/mile after 50,000 miles the EPA gives it a rating of 1.5 grams/mile; if that's under the standard, the car passes.*

Next, the EPA takes the results of those emissions tests and calculates the fuel usage - that's right, they don't measure the fuel used, they measure the emissions produced and calculate the fuel used. The EPA does that, but the formula is well-known to the auto makers.

As others have stated here, the problem in this case isn't so much that the cars didn't get the EPA estimated mileage (no car does), but that due to battery life issues the cars didn't get nearly the positive gains from regenerative braking that Honda expected.

I'm guessing the fault here lies with Honda not using production-quality batteries in their 50,000 mile testing, so they did not get an accurate degradation factor. Or possibly the battery degradation was age-related more than mileage-related (it will take you approx. 4 years to drive 50,000 miles; the testing takes about two months if they drive the car 24x7).

* This is why state emissions testing is a joke. It doesn't take into account the fact that a car can be over the emissions standard at the end of it's life and still be legal because it was much cleaner when it was new.


RE: Sue the EPA!
By Lord 666 on 2/16/2012 11:23:35 PM , Rating: 2
Your post also explains how Honda has higher theoretical mpg; generally Honda has cleaner running cars.

Btw, what's an Oldsmobile? ;)


RE: Sue the EPA!
By rich876 on 2/17/2012 9:51:48 AM , Rating: 2
I read somewhere, not long ago, that sometime the EPA is just too busy to rate all cars and they sometime take the ratings from the manufacturers. This could have been the case with Honda.


EPA estimates....
By rdhood on 2/17/2012 12:14:28 PM , Rating: 2
So, if you accelerate 0-55 in two minutes (and never decelerate) on perfectly flat ground, maintain 55 on perfectly flat with no headwind, do not run AC, windows up for hours, you will get the advertised gas mileage. Unfortunately, that is no practical nor realistic.

The mistake that Honda makes is eagerly advertising the EPA estimates when they know... full well.. that they are not remotely realistic. For example, in 1992, they advertised "The 55mpg Honda Civic VX"... knowing full well that you would only get about 40-45. It is one thing to advertise the EPA estimates, it is another to take the high estimate and broadcast it as an expectation.




RE: EPA estimates....
By Keeir on 2/17/2012 12:52:38 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.s...

It simply boggles my mind. A quick Google search will tell you how the cars are tested and to what methodology.

quote:
So, if you accelerate 0-55 in two minutes (and never decelerate) on perfectly flat ground, maintain 55 on perfectly flat with no headwind, do not run AC, windows up for hours, you will get the advertised gas mileage. Unfortunately, that is no practical nor realistic.


Having done that in a variety of cars, I typically get 50% more than the rated Highway MPG. Pointless rhetoric, that is not even true.

Your problem is that you think your the judge of practical and realistic. That's fine. But for car makers to be held to many millions of different definitions is an impossible situation. Everyone has agreed that the EPA can define what's "practical" and "realistic", thereby saving automakers the cost of continually reassessing these values and defending their personal definitions from legal attack.


By Beenthere on 2/16/2012 1:57:22 PM , Rating: 2
If Honda or any other car maker is advertising the EPA certified mpg for their vehicles - they should NOT be subjected to lawsuits for fraud when these mpg figures are certified by the EPA.

How people drive impacts mpg by as much as 30%. The EPA test was changed to closer resemble the driving habits of consumers but the range is so broad it's impossible to give seriously accurate mpgs. "YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY" is stated on all mpg claims.

I can always exceed the advertised mpg on my vehicles with "normal" driving but other folks may get way less with their "normal driving".

It's outrageous to be suing any car company over advertised mpg for gas, Diesel or hybrids - if they are using the EPA certified data and a court is wrong to rule against the car companies.




By Just Tom on 2/16/2012 4:15:56 PM , Rating: 2
Honda flashed the computer's eprom, changing how the drive train worked. This allowed less strain on the batteries, which were failing, but limited gas mileage. The issue in the court case was not Honda using the EPA estimates but Honda designing faulty batteries and covering that fact up by how the drive train operated, limiting gas mileage.


Legitimate
By masamasa on 2/16/2012 11:02:06 AM , Rating: 3
There are far too many companies in this day and age advertising products that cannot do what they say. From cars to Internet connections to you name it. I fully support this action, even though class actions suits are a bit out of control. This one has merit.




Leaches
By KnightBreed on 2/16/2012 12:56:47 PM , Rating: 3
Small claims court is a great alternative to a class-action suit. That way the scum sucking lawyers don't get one fucking cent.




You never get perfect numbers
By Donkey2008 on 2/18/2012 10:59:47 AM , Rating: 2
The sticker on any new car reflects the mileage estimates using the EPA testing standard. If Honda went through the process legally, then you cannot argue that they mislead anyone. Frivolous lawsuit IMO.

FYI, 2011 Grand Cherokee 4x4 with the Hemi V8 here. Advertised as 13/19; I get 11/21 in real world. Perfectly happy with that, and yes I can afford the gas.




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