Sources: New York Times, Automobile Magazine
quote: Where do you think 99+% of garages get their electrical power? (Hint: it's the national electric grid.)
quote: Why would I need a national electric grid?
quote: When it can hit 300 miles to a charge AND recharge in 10 minutes, I'd consider it.
quote: In fact, I don't think we should be subsidizing cars AT ALL at ANY PRICE LEVEL. If you can't afford a car at a certain price point, buy a cheaper car or buy used.
quote: I mean does anyone hear me on this? Am I talking to walls?
quote: if we wanted something we had to EARN it.
quote: Our reliance on foreign oil is absolutely killing us
quote: But it certainly won't if we don't invest in research.
quote: We're paying $3 a gallon for gas for thousands of reasons.
quote: I am not anti-pipelines or off shore drilling but we could never create enough oil to match our consumption.
quote: Funding these types of companies is not hurting our country or stifling our economy.
quote: Your entire opinion and position is wrong on all counts. You go against free market principles and, frankly, lose on ethical and moral grounds as well.
quote: If you see EV as a dead end any investment or subsidy is a complete waste. I don't see them as a dead end I see them as the solution which is why we disagree.
quote: I think that it is an infant market in need of funding and can picture a point in time where an ICEV is vastly inferior to an EV and we're using 30% of the oil we used to use.
quote: Ethanol subsidies alone have cost us $45 billion. Wind, solar, and EV's...who knows.
quote: A true conservative should not be ok with all this transfer of wealth. If we can keep that money here by developing alternatives made in USA, that would be great.
quote: From that link you showed me, it looks like we are giving away a lot of our money to foreign countries for oil.
quote: This is nothing less than treason to attack American products when our economy is so bad.
quote: Meanwhile the Volt has won more awards than any car on the road.
quote: I had an email conversation with Morano, a guest on Foxnews. He actually admitted to me that it is all political to him to try and get back at Obama.
quote: I am an extreme conservative
quote: I would vote for Ron Paul.
quote: Bring me back the republicans that stood for America, like Reagan that saved Chrysler
quote: Although I did see it on the news that it cost us over a trillion to protect oil just in 10 years.
quote: Surely it cost us trillions in 40 years to protect oil, but whatever the amount, where are the republicans complaining about this?
quote: Biofuels is a MUCH better way to go than EV technology.
quote: Why are you talking about corn ethanol?
quote: The US government has spent billions researching synthetic and algae based fuels with very little to show
quote: Regardless, the Solar Power produces 60/3 or 20 times the miles... this is using basic solar power tech versus optomistic biofuels. Using existing proven data, its more like 40+ times.
quote: Trying to claim these are any more tangible than bio-fuels or biodiesel is hilarious.
quote: But bacteria based or other methods of making bio-fuels at least have a realistic CHANCE of becoming viable. Far more than EV's.
quote: Tell me this Mr. Data, how long would it realistically take for our electric grid to be ready for mass EV adoption
quote: we would need charging stations where we work, live, and anywhere in between.
quote: Solar power? Do you know how much space enough panels would take to power a town? A city? Don't talk to me about acreage.
quote: It also means it can be viable for large trucks, airplanes, and ships. Something EV's will NEVER be, ever.
quote: When it comes down to it, gas tanks and batteries serve but one use; storing potential energy. It's not even an argument about which one does this better.
quote: Now if you had said that, I wouldn't be picking at the statement.
quote: You may not like EVs because you see them being pushed by Liberal/Democratic politicians. But to like BioFuels more smacks of contradiction.
quote: Researchers at Duke, the DOE, and elsewhere think EV technology could become viable in the 2015-2020 timeframe provided current trends continue.
quote: Solar power is rightly viewed as not energy dense enough power generation. Yet Solar Power is between 50-1000 more energy dense in production than the very best biofuels that we can even conceive of making in the next 5 years.
quote: Isn't that your whole argument against EV technology or am I missing something?
quote: Tesla was bailed out in 2008, then they got a handout,
quote: I'm really tired of people calling money that will NEVER get paid back "a loan".
quote: Do you need a hobby or do you actually enjoy making up excuses to argue with me?
quote: The company is requesting $400 million in low-interest federal loans as part of the $25 billion loan package for the auto industry passed by Congress last year.
quote: Tesla is seeking the loans for development of a second-generation car, a five-passenger sedan that after tax credits would cost about $50,000 — less than half the Roadster’s price tag of $109,000 — and for a project to supply components for other manufacturers.
quote: Unfortunately for Tesla, batteries are based on chemistry and have nothing to do with Moore’s Law. Lawrence H. Dubois, chief technology officer at ATMI, a semiconductor industry supplier, said, “With batteries, you can’t just squeeze more energy into a smaller and smaller space the way you can squeeze more transistors.”
quote: I wonder how Tesla’s course has been influenced by at least some of its investors being helplessly smitten by the world’s quietest dragster.
quote: Interesting choice, A semiconducter maker commenting on batteries. Perhaps an independant scientist would have been a better choice no?
quote: What was I supposed to hear again?
quote: Sigh. I don't know. Common sense? Truth? A better point of view?
quote: Throw the baby out with the bathwater eh?
quote: If it's a loan then what are the terms? What are Tesla's obligations? How many payments have they made? Do they even HAVE payments? What happens when/if they default? And like Solyndra, what happens to the "loan" money if Tesla went under?
quote: Point is, this is NOT a good use of Government funds.
quote: What kind of game are you playing? I guess we should ignore the fact that he's 100% correct? If Moores Law applied to batteries, we wouldn't even be having this conversation!
quote: It's just really obvious you think you can destroy my arguments by dragging me into semantics.
quote: Just talk to me like I'm a goddamn human being will you?
quote: Take a reasonable defensable position presenting rationale and data instead of shooting off your mouth and I will.
quote: You're a shill.
quote: It's ALL you post about,
quote: You are not the boss of me or my opinions.
quote: I've presented plenty of rationale.
quote: Go troll someone else!
quote: But your not the boss of my opinions either.
quote: Really? Is that so hard? The best you can do is a fluffy opinion peice?
quote: The big gotcha that most non-electronic engineers don't realize is that electric cars consume huge amounts of electric power. One electric car consumes as much power in typical operation as four homes!
quote: Here's the big problem: If we all got electric cars, we'd need four times as many new electric power plants, and four times as many transmission towers to get that power to our homes!
quote: When you ignore all the free subsidies handed out like cocaine to get people hooked, electric cars need to burn about four times as much to fuel at a power plant compared to burning it directly in your car.
quote: Overall, not really impressed Reclaimer.
quote: Okay the joke stops here. When you hold two patents and an electrical engineering degree, you can counter him with authority.
quote: Nobody can have an opinion, everything must be "peer reviewed"
quote: Also you know jack shit about electricity. A level 3 EV charger is 440v and draws 400 amps!
quote: According to EVcharger.com, you'll need one of these chargers for each EV you own. Do you know anything about electricity? That's several times more than your entire HOUSE would draw from the grid if you left everything on!
quote: The fact that you focus purely on volts and watts while ignoring amps proves me to you know NOTHING of the situation at hand.
quote: The guy spelled it out for you and you don't even want to believe it. I'm shocked at how you can, through sheer force of will, deny everything that doesn't agree with your opinions.
quote: Time to shut up, frankly.
quote: Very few people would need to charge their cars in 9 minutes.
quote: The important fact is that EVs go a lot farther than gasoline vehicles on the same amount of ENERGY.
quote: You do realize that volts * amps = watts? Therefore, considering watts (the meaningful measure of energy consumption) also considers amperage.
quote: We don't have gas pumps in our homes and garages and street parking spots yet we do fine.
quote: with 400+ million cars on the road would realistically require
quote: But the simple fact is you've failed to prove our grid can handle EV's, and that they don't represent a massive power drain and infrastructure problem.
quote: If 100% of all passenger car and light truck travel was electric, the US would need to produce only 25% more power than last year to cover every single mile
quote: Registered drivers does not = cars on the road. America has more vehicles than people.
quote: That's impossible.
quote: Preferably one that wasn't influenced by someone who stands to make a fortune from EV mass adoption.
quote: In conclusion, if the US produced ~800,000,000,000 kWh more
quote: Reclaimer says its "impossible". Clearly it must be so!
quote: So please Reclaimer, find a problem in my very simple math.
quote: I guess we just don't count the millions of people who aren't "typical". Nope they don't count.
quote: I love how you don't think that's massive.
quote: Your math is fine. The problem is it comes from a false starting premise. When you start an equation wrong, how does it end? Wrong.
quote: It's also false because you assume EV's and the power delivery systems to EV's are 100% efficient.
quote: You're full of bullshit,
quote: This is also assuming all cars are EVs...which wouldn't happen.
quote: The 400% increase only happens when the charger is actually in operation. I thought that was obvious and that we weren't talking about a permanent 400+% usage on electricity all the time.
quote: I am confused.
quote: Taking things out of context
quote: I guess since you made no attempt to answer
quote: What's you next item about why EVs are bad since we both agree the US can make the required amount of electricity?
quote: And of course we "can" make the power required! I never said we couldn't.
quote: The whole point is that EV's represent an unsustainable level of power consumption for this country.
quote: think this whole thing came about when the author I linked said "EV's use 4 times the power of an entire house". You interpreted this as if he was literally saying we would need 400% more power generation 24/7. I'm simply clarifying that's only the case when the EV is being charged. Not sure why you're focusing on this "3 minute" margin when it's irrelevant WHEN the car is being charged. Again, more pointless baiting by you. Are you sure your degree wasn't in Advanced Bickering?
quote: EV's are a boondoggle and cannot satisfy the transportation requirements of the people. That is a statement of fact.
quote: With approval for ONE upcoming reactor, the first approval in decades and most likely the last for decades.
quote: You want to just wash all this away by saying "well at some point in the future, this will change".
quote: You're the one who linked to an article to support your assertion the US would need "massive" amounts of new power generation.
quote: But really how about Natural Gas? Why does Nuclear need to be the only answer?
quote: Following a 30-year period in which few new reactors were built, it is expected that 4-6 new units may come on line by 2020, the first of those resulting from 16 licence applications made since mid-2007 to build 24 new nuclear reactors.
quote: "using existing trends in per kWh pricing of batteries existing for decades, EVs and PHEVs will soon be affordable".
quote: Of course! What world do you live in where adding millions of EV's somehow don't represent an increase in power demands? Wtf! You're driving me nuts!
quote: You don't want to drill for oil but you'll accept natural gas being used to generate electricity for your precious EV's.... Okay whatever.
quote: That's like me linking something from ExxonMobile.com to make a point on oil numbers, you wouldn't accept that.
quote: But why should we continue to burn it for our own transportation?
quote: Because there's nothing better!
quote: Pretty much every other measurable way, gasoline is inferior.
quote: As long as you have to rely on chemical batteries, EV is a no-go.
quote: 1. Higher energy density
quote: 2. Because of 1, only viable energy storage for flying craft.
quote: 3. Only viable fuel for fast vehicles (jet engines)
quote: 5. Contrary to what you see in movies, storing lots of energy in the form of gasoline is pretty safe, safer than a battery.
quote: The rest of your post is the typical say anything pro-Liberal
quote: Keeir is perfectly capable of shoveling garbage my way without you cheerleading for him
quote: It's about being reasonable and logical, not clinging onto ideals that have no bearing on reality.
quote: The 400% number you keep using has been shown wrong many times already and you keep clinging to it.
quote: I'm just tired of seeing you post on subjects in which you obviously have no clue.
quote: First off, it's not wrong because the only way to prove it wrong would be if we DID have an entire nation full of EV's.
quote: Secondly, focusing on the 400% is just a nice way to deflect the main point, which is that EV's represent SOME level of unsustainable and enormous power requirements.
quote: You and Keeir's insistence this isn't the case only reflects the general enviro-wacko leftist attitude
quote: There's NO rational case for EV's. NONE.
quote: I'll fight you on this until I die. And furthermore, so are the majority of car buyers.
quote: If the Volt was a 30,000 dollar car, I think many people would be more than happy.
quote: In 10 years, the Volt would be a 30,000 dollar car
quote: Overnight charging? Well that's real practical because, you know, everyone parks their cars in a garage. Nobody parks cars on the street, or in parking garages, etc etc.
quote: Most people's behaviors wouldn't need to change, yet large amounts of oil would no longer be used...
quote: Agree with you there, especially the 50% PHEV ratio coming from a blatant Chevy Volt supporter.
quote: I hate oil, so EV's must be used
quote: Almost a side benefit would be the drastic reduction in localized pollution. But hey, I am sure everyone loves breathing in fumes!
quote: But don't mistake, at no point do I think gasoline cars should be outlawed.
quote: I had the feeling that's why you were so against any potential upside biofuels might have. Because you're just against burning something for fuel.
quote: Get a clue. EV's just shift pollution from your tailpipe to somewhere else. There are NO true "clean" alternatives.
quote: My god, when the "energy secretary" of the United States outlines the clear and obvious goal of making gas prohibitively expensive for Americans, and then tells them to just buy costly more efficient cars like the Volt, how can you support that as a policy?
quote: But your in denial if you feel like it will be the US government that will inflate gasoline.
quote: Gas taxes barely keep up with road requirements as it is...
quote: All of these places want to live like the US
quote: One needs look now further to the economies of Canada and Russia to see how the economies of countries able to export Oil, NG, etc grow... one would therefore think that the required importation of Oil is a significant drag on the US economy as a whole.
quote: This is why you're an activist. You draw the correct conclusion, then fail in the outcome. The obvious response to this is, we should be consuming and even exporting our OWN oil. Especially now in a recession.
quote: Instead somehow you arrive at the conclusion that EV's are the way to go, because electricity is the more stable commodity. Of course it won't stay "stable" if millions of EV's appear on the roads. The price for electricity will then ALSO skyrocket. Supply and demand. It's already going up now due to simple market forces unrelated to EV's.
quote: US does not have significant oil reserves.
quote: When you hold two patents and an electrical engineering degree, you can counter him with authority.
quote: Also you know jack shit about electricity. A level 3 EV charger is 440v and draws 400 amps! Do you even have a concept on what kind of power draw something running at 400 amps is?? And that's just one
quote: The fact that you focus purely on volts and watts while ignoring amps proves me to you know NOTHING of the situation at hand
quote: The guy spelled it out for you and you don't even want to believe it.
quote: We're in the middle of a debt crisis, and paying rich people with taxpayer money we don't have (debt) to buy a gimmick play toy is just an absurd thing.
quote: The kicker here is that it should only be for domestic enterprises, with domestic industry and not mass-outsourcers like Apple.
quote: Billions of dollars of taxpayer money goes to Tesla, which the goes around the world to various suppliers, only to return us a product that nobody is buying buy the wealthy and in extremely insignificant numbers.
quote: Plus oil companies already are subsidized plenty.
quote: As I have pointed out elsewhere, the majority of US oil imports come from stable trading partners who really pose little threat to the US.
quote: Remember Elon it's a mode of transportation not a space ship...