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The Pirate Bay's leadership were sentenced by a Swedish court to a year in jail and over $3M USD in damages for assisting copyright infringement. The defiant leadership announced a press conference, pictured here, to discuss their planned appeal of the verdict.  (Source: rstmfnvideo/Flickr)
Despite a spirited fight, Sweden's most high profile pirates get sent to the jail

The Pirate Bay was the world's largest torrent site; feeding millions of users downloading legally obtained and illegally infringed works.  It was the latter that cause the admins’ home nation of Sweden to drop the hammer and announce conspiracy charges and other charges against the feisty pirates. The parties involved included Peter “brokep” Sunde Kolmisoppi, Gottfrid “anakata” Svartholm, Fredrik “TiAMO” Neij, as well as Carl Lundström, who hosted the site via his company, Rix Telecom.

The groups once had dreams of founding their own country, but the proud pirates fell, facing the legal fight of their lives.  From telling the lawyers of the
International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI) who were assisting Swedish authorities to "go screw themselves" to releasing intriguing figures that 80 percent of their torrents were legal, the pirates put up a spirited fight indeed.  For a time, it seemed they had the prosecution on the ropes -- they had to alter their charges against the group, faced with difficulty proving their current case.

However, in the end it was not enough, and the Stockholm district court found the four pirates guilty of assisting copyright infringement sending them to a year of hard time in jail.  To add insult to injury, the court also ordered them to give up their bounty, ordering SEK 30 million ($3.59M USD) in damages.

The three week trial concluded with a somewhat surprising victory for the prosecution.  The verdict stated that the Pirate Bay leadership was guilty of "promoting other people's infringements of copyright laws."

The Swedish officials have discovered that their plans to place the feisty group behind bars might be put on hold though, as the group plans an appeal.  The Pirate Bay states, "This will not be the final decision, only the first before the losing party will appeal. It will have no real effect on anything besides setting the tone for the debate."

Mr. Kolmisoppi (brokep) twittered this morning urging Pirate Bay fans to stay calm, and noted that there would be no interruption in their service or their fight against the charges.  He wrote, "Nothing will happen to TPB, us personally or file-sharing whatsoever."

The leadership held a special press conference for the media at the Museum of Technology in Stockholm, Sweden.  At the conference were Rasmus Fleischer of Piratbyrån, Sara Sajjad of Piratbyrån, Gottfrid Svartholm Warg (aka Anakata), Peter Sunde (aka Brokep) and Magnus Eriksson of Piratbyrån. Fredrik Neij (TiAMO) and the fourth defendant Carl Lundström were not in attendance.

A defiant Mr. Warg challenged Sweden's leadership to try to stop the site, stating, "What are they going to do? They have already failed to take the site down once. Let them fail again.  It has its own life without us."

As to the order to surrender his supposed bounty, he states, "I already have more debt in Sweden than I will ever be able to pay off. I don’t even live here. They are welcome to send me a bill. I will frame it and put it on the wall."

Asked if he viewed his campaign as fight for technology, Mr. Kolmisoppi responded, "I think it is something in between actually. We have a personal liability for this, we have a personal risk which has some impact on our feelings. But definitely it’s not defending the technology, it’s more like defending the idea of the technology and that’s probably the most important thing in this case - the political aspect of letting the technology be free and not controlled by an entity which doesn’t like technology."  



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All I can think of is...
By Bender 123 on 4/17/2009 9:37:29 AM , Rating: 5
Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...




RE: All I can think of is...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 4/17/2009 9:37:58 AM , Rating: 5
Jesus?


RE: All I can think of is...
By elessar1 on 4/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: All I can think of is...
By Basilisk on 4/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: All I can think of is...
By erikejw on 4/17/2009 10:04:02 AM , Rating: 3
Apparently the lead detective was paid about 150k$ from Warner Brothers as extra income and left his job the same day he reported his findings to the prosecutor.

He has since then worked for WB and was not contactable in any way to witness. He simply went underground.

Jim Keyser is his name.
Keyser Soze anyone ;)


RE: All I can think of is...
By Spookster on 4/17/2009 11:36:49 AM , Rating: 5
I Usually Suspect that. :)


RE: All I can think of is...
By RW on 4/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: All I can think of is...
By SiliconDoc on 4/25/2009 6:19:36 AM , Rating: 2
Can we now get the same number of Congressional players in prison, and that many from wallstreet, for their 20 years long internet connnected priority computer pipeline on the backbone of the internet and into every giant campaign contributing bank, investment firm, and lawyer lobbying crew, also connected to the backbone to wrest their 20 years long deca-trillion dollar crime spree on the American public and indeed on the world?
To add insult to injury, after they were caught, they all played dumb, pointed their finger in 20 diferent directions, declared the end of the world and capitalism, THEN WENT ON AN ENORMOUS NEVER BEFORE SEEN MASSIVE FOLLOW UP COVER UP CRIME SPREE WHILE DISTORTING AND DESTROYING EVIDENCE, HIRING THE CRIMINALS THAT WERE IN CAHOOTS WITH THEM ALL THE TIME, AND DECLARING LATER THEY DON'T KNOW HOW THE HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS GOT AWAY, MUCH ALL OVER THE WORLD BANKS AND MUCH INTO THE VERY TAX CHEATS FORMER CEO COMPANIES.
I mean, it's like, FORGET IT, the criminals who really steal have all the authorities and prosecutors STAND DOWN while they pirate rob the ENTIRE WORLD for a 20 years into the future bill.
This is so PATHETIC and miniscule in comparison, it is utter INCOMPETENCE and an INSULT to sentient beings worldwide.
Throw the lying judge and his consortium prosecutor into the morge, then lets get on with it for the criminals on Capitol Hill and their STREAM of robberbarron cohorts.
I'm not even exagerrating - it's so sick I don't even have the words to express the level of outrage.


RE: All I can think of is...
By smackababy on 4/17/2009 10:18:19 AM , Rating: 5
Thank you for informing us of the Star Wars reference. I am sure nobody else caught it. =)


RE: All I can think of is...
By callmeroy on 4/22/2009 9:08:31 AM , Rating: 2
I was thinking the same...lol

I can understand why the guy pointing out Star Wars was down grade (because folks were likely think No $hit Sherlock!)....but what gave me a chuckle more than the intended humor was how the "Jesus?" comment gets a 5 --- and someone says "Jobs?" and they get a -1.......

So in some perverse way --- folks here rate Jobs more sacred a figure than Jesus?

ok...well that explains a lot to me about some posters on this site ....lol


RE: All I can think of is...
By Mitch101 on 4/17/2009 12:52:07 PM , Rating: 5
Darn it I had Mrs Plum in the Library with the candle sticks. Now I know why I'm picked last for Pictionary.


RE: All I can think of is...
By Bateluer on 4/17/2009 9:42:30 AM , Rating: 5
When I checked this morning, the PB site was still up and functional. Regardless, if they do close down PB, then its users will spawn a dozen more sites, likely of equal size with an even larger user base.

The recording industry is trying to battle a forest fire with napalm.


RE: All I can think of is...
By JasonMick (blog) on 4/17/2009 9:59:31 AM , Rating: 5
The real irony of the corporate record industry doing so poorly is that the independent industry is flourishing -- a lot of labels are doing better than ever before and there's tons of new labels.

What people are realizing (finally) is that there's about 10-20 percent of "radio hit" material that's can be praised as catchy, though ultimately brainless, prepackaged material not written by the artists themselves, but 80-90 percent isn't even catchy -- its just garbage, the poor result of overblown production (perfect example -- Fergie). THAT is why the corporate record industry is failing. While their big stars may still be selling CDs, the industry is spending so much to promote them and missing out on truly worthwhile talent that its a losing game.

The industry ultimately would be best served taking a break from litigation and trying to reevaluate its own bottom line. The problem is you have a corporate music industry, that's about making an artificial pop product, not *real* music. Its ultimately a question of whether you can support an industry that essentially holds up the Fergies and Spears as the future of music over the likes of the Dylan and the Beatles (and worthwhile modern artists).

/end ramble


RE: All I can think of is...
By ClownPuncher on 4/17/2009 11:46:04 AM , Rating: 2
+6


RE: All I can think of is...
By dxf2891 on 4/17/2009 12:00:09 PM , Rating: 5
No the real irony is that I had no idea that torrents existed until this trial. I just got kicked off of Comcast for exceeding their bandwidth limit. This has got to be in the top 5 inventions of the 21st century. The only thing this trial, and trials like this, has done is make people aware of an attractive technology that they don't want us to use. It reminds me of that joke of the rich farmers very attractive daughter. "You can have anything, BUT my daughter." Now it's the ONLY thing you want.


RE: All I can think of is...
By mmntech on 4/17/2009 12:42:55 PM , Rating: 5
It's far easier to sue people and harass legitimate customers than it is to produce content people actually want to pay for.

This case just serves to expose the huge flaws with global copyright laws. Jail time seems completely unnecessary for this crime. They're hardly a danger to society and it's not as if they're producing the content and offering it on their own servers. Pirate Bay is just a search engine. They do encourage piracy but they are not an active accomplice to it. I've always found it ironic that the punishment for downloading a song is stiffer than shoplifting a CD. That's lobbying dollars and donations to countless political campaigns gets you. I don't even think the banks or the big unions have as much power over the government as Hollywood does.


RE: All I can think of is...
By TA152H on 4/17/2009 2:55:49 PM , Rating: 5
The funny part of your post is how you spout your opinions on what's worthwhile, and then treat it as uncontestable. Have you listened to the Beatles lately? It's very simple, and very pop. Bob Dylan sounds like a croaking wounded coyote. This is your idea of musical talent, but it's not universal.

Mozart could write more complicated music when he was eight then they could as an adult, and Bach's incredible grasp of polyphony would be well beyond their limited talents.

So, I could be as arrogant and presumptuous as you and say no one should listen to the simple, brain-dead rubbish from the Beatles and Bob Dylan, since it's sorely lacking the talent of Mozart, Bach, or Haydn, but the reality is, if it makes someone happy and brings pleasure to listen to it, then I'm all for Fergie, or Britney Spears, etc... Unless I have to hear it, of course :-P .


RE: All I can think of is...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 4:47:36 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Have you listened to the Beatles lately?


No, but I still respect them.

quote:
It's very simple, and very pop.


Most of their big radio hits, maybe. But you are wrong on your premise. Coldplay is simple too, and sorry, nobody 40 years from now are going to credit them with helping invent an entire genre.

I applaud your attempt at a devils advocate argument, but nobody is buying it. Today's music mostly sucks, and we all know it.


RE: All I can think of is...
By Oregonian2 on 4/18/2009 4:24:43 PM , Rating: 3
I once started reading a music "class" that included how some of the super-power classical (Bach, etc) wrote songs. I was surprised how at least the example given for one of their super "hits" was really a short sequence of notes that were repeated over and over again, just with with variations. Not much different than a pop song, but done with an orchestra instead. I was expecting all kinds of genius complexity -- but it really was very simple.

P.S. - There's at least one set of Baroque'ized Beatle music. Pretty good.


RE: All I can think of is...
By knowyourenemy on 4/21/2009 1:49:17 PM , Rating: 2
True genius lies in the management of simplicity.


RE: All I can think of is...
By artemicion on 4/17/2009 3:33:37 PM , Rating: 2
Can't fault the industry for selling what people are buying. You may think Fergie and Spears are crap (not saying your wrong either), but people are buying it, so I hardly think that the record industry is doing poorly because of Fergie and Spears.

And while you're launching your highly subjective hate missles at Fergie and Spears, why not send some toward Sesame Street. I always thought their jingles were rather simplistic and infantile. Surely nothing as masterful as Dylan or the Beatles. Shame on every person who buys a copy of Elmo's Christmas songs when they could be spending that money on Abbey Road!


RE: All I can think of is...
By Reclaimer77 on 4/17/2009 4:49:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You may think Fergie and Spears are crap (not saying your wrong either), but people are buying it


???

Dude the last time Britney sold anything, I was in HIGH SCHOOL. Over 10 years ago. Fergie and Spears sales are in the tank. What are you talking about ?


RE: All I can think of is...
By artemicion on 4/17/2009 6:54:27 PM , Rating: 3
Ok replace Fergie and Spears with whatever pop artist you hate that is currently at the top of the charts (Miley Cyrus? Akon? I neither know nor care). Excuse me for continuing to use the example that was originally put forth by the previous post in order to maintain continuity.


RE: All I can think of is...
By sheh on 4/18/2009 11:32:53 PM , Rating: 2
Spears' last album (end of 2008) sold something like 2 million copies, and the tour that followed has already made 25 million US$.


RE: All I can think of is...
By SiliconDoc on 4/25/2009 6:41:54 AM , Rating: 2
Remember when people kept telling us news has become entertainment, and they are just giving the people what they want...
Now the news is dropping like a rock...the traditional channels are dying, the traditional papers are dying, magazines, dying...
IMO what happened was their sickening corruption and lying ways were exposed - and that is leading to their destruction and death.
Must be the same in the music industry - the old powerful heads like wall of sound hairball Phil was in court for murder - the communications age brought the lies and tricks and walls and shenanigans to the attention of the music lovers, and they rejected the pravda top 40 and the control of the giant labels.
Their evil, lying eyes sold them out - and people became disgusted with them -
Same thing for our government here in the USA - they really, really blew it - their 20 year subprime crime spree was followed by another insta crime and coverup spree that has been rocking the entire world - and exposing that they were all in on it together - the entire world that is - the top tier...
Downside looks like in the case of the biggest criminals and the biggest, costliest, in our face crime spree humanity has ever known or been witness to on a worldwide basis, they are going to get away with it, and when doing so, lock in a good 20 more years of crime...
Fergie and Spears might lose power and sway and get replaced, but real disgraces at the helm feeding us all this crap, it appears, shall remain.


RE: All I can think of is...
By Belard on 4/17/2009 5:02:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The real irony of the corporate record industry doing so poorly is that the independent industry is flourishing -- a lot of labels are doing better than ever before and there's tons of new labels.


Agreed... I'll be going to a concert next week from a "small" euro band, again. I don't listen to the radio much, its mostly crap or rap-crap, noise and plenty of no-talent cuties. Now, some of the crap is a bit catchy... but there is far better stuff out there from local bands and real artist.

There are reasons why Beatles, Pink Floyd, Aerosmith and other muscians can last for decades and still sell their music. Spears has lasted longer than she should have, she's been replaced like any other idol singer. typical life-span is about 2~4 years... then they turn into OLD people like the rest of us.

One of my favorite artist is Japanese, she's been making music for over 20 years (some of which is in America) that is top notch. She composes, performs and work with other musicans around the world. That is talent.


RE: All I can think of is...
By nugundam93 on 4/19/2009 8:07:07 PM , Rating: 2
belard, who's that artist? i'm guessing though she's not yoko kanno?


RE: All I can think of is...
By SDMFdingo on 4/18/2009 11:56:25 AM , Rating: 2
I'm new, I don't know how to up-rate. +6


RE: All I can think of is...
By trabpukcip on 4/18/2009 1:15:20 PM , Rating: 2
Only staff can give a +6


RE: All I can think of is...
By UsernameX on 4/19/2009 6:46:10 PM , Rating: 2
+7


RE: All I can think of is...
By erikejw on 4/17/2009 10:47:50 AM , Rating: 2
"The recording industry is trying to battle a forest fire with napalm. "

Rather a forest with a butter knife.
When they have cut one tree down in 2 years time thousands of others have spawned.


RE: All I can think of is...
By Bender 123 on 4/17/2009 10:58:14 AM , Rating: 5
http://www.google.com/trends?q=pirate+bay

Its almost funny that every time the recording industry tries to do something to the Pirate Bay, the Google Trends fly up and the Alexa ratings bounce higher, as well...Almost like people who didn't know about torrents were being pushed to use it, based on the name getting out in the public...hrmmmmmm...


RE: All I can think of is...
By MrBowmore on 4/20/2009 4:20:53 AM , Rating: 1
Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not… fuck with us.

It is going to be a wild couple of years in sweden.


So...
By WoWCow on 4/17/2009 9:44:40 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
The verdict stated that the Pirate Bay leadership was guilty of "promoting other people's infringements of copyright laws."


Goodness, what kind of verdict is that? Talk about subjection to interpretation...

I guess all the music videos uploaded on youtube should be banned because gosh, they're promoting us to listen to music for... FREE while google makes money from the ads in those videos.

Maybe they should try suing google, oh yes, what a court battle it would be. Hundred of lawyers going at it making hundreds by the hour because of this terrible precedent.




RE: So...
By omnicronx on 4/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: So...
By DigitalFreak on 4/17/2009 11:23:16 AM , Rating: 2
I guess you fail to realize that the DMCA and it's takedown notices do not apply to any country outside the US.

Considering how much of a joke the prosecution was in this trial, it's pretty obvious the judge was either a moron or had some other political agenda.


RE: So...
By omnicronx on 4/17/2009 4:20:12 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I guess you fail to realize that the DMCA and it's takedown notices do not apply to any country outside the US.
Did I say DMCA takedown request? There are copyright infringement laws in pretty much every country, including Swedan, although much more lax than in the US.

quote:
Considering how much of a joke the prosecution was in this trial, it's pretty obvious the judge was either a moron or had some other political agenda.
You do realize if this case were held in any other first world nation, it would have been a slam dunk for the prosecution. In fact if this were the US, the hosting would have probably been contacted and had the site shutdown long before it even reached this stage.

However you want to put it, what these guys were doing was illegal on a mass scale. Going after individuals for having files in their shared folder is wrong, going after the source is not. So please stop crying, this is the one time the record companies are in the right. The guys wanted to make their own country, thats pretty much admitting they knew what they were doing was illegal.


RE: So...
By twjr on 4/17/2009 10:50:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
going after the source is not


The source of what? A search engine? So by that logic Google is also a source and should be prosecuted. TPB don't have any pirated materials on their servers so how can they be the source of anything?


RE: So...
By theapparition on 4/18/2009 7:49:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The guys wanted to make their own country, thats pretty much admitting they knew what they were doing was illegal.

Sorry,
But that argument pretty much sums up the first English Pilgrims settling in the new world.

What they were doing was looking for a land that was free from persecution over basic rights. The result is a United States which still is the model for a democratic replublic for the rest of the world.

Not trying to draw any conclusions other than a little anarchy sometimes is a healthy thing.


RE: So...
By samoak54 on 4/19/2009 1:23:36 PM , Rating: 2
AHHHH... Nice to see the propagation of Lockean philosophy. Even if the source of prorogation has no idea what that is :P


RE: So...
By ClownPuncher on 4/17/2009 11:48:56 AM , Rating: 2
The only difference is that drug dealers are dealing drugs, and Pirate Bay is turning a blind eye to those that trade illegal software. So the only difference is...they are completely different situations.


RE: So...
By omnicronx on 4/17/2009 4:26:25 PM , Rating: 2
As I already said, I'm not comparing the crimes, but the outcomes of these crimes.

There will always be little fish to replace the big fish, but that not mean you stop hunting the big fish.

There really is no argument here, what they did was illegal, even in Sweden, and that says a lot.

I'm not really against piracy either, I do my fair share of illegal downloading, but I usually buy what I like. I just can't feel sorry for those that get into the business when they know it is illegal. If you want to take the risk, all the power to you, but don't whine and complain when everything comes crashing down on you.


RE: So...
By artemicion on 4/17/2009 7:35:57 PM , Rating: 3
Let's say that a man in your neighborhood runs a bar. He's got the beer, the alcohol license, etc. - everything he needs to run a legitimate bar business.

Let's also say EVERYBODY in town knows that the bar is a meth den. The owner doesn't directly profit from meth sales - he's just running his bar business.

Should there be a law that allows authorities to shut the bar down and/or punish the bar owner?

Does it change your answer if the prosecutor can show that a) the owner knew about the meth; and b) the owner profited from the meth indirectly because the people who came to buy meth also had a tendency to buy a beer from the owner as well?


RE: So...
By Major HooHaa on 4/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: So...
By codeThug on 4/17/2009 4:56:55 PM , Rating: 1
So..... I guess we'll all go back to paying retail...


RE: So...
By ggordonliddy on 4/17/2009 7:10:00 PM , Rating: 3
You think it's okay to take things which you don't pay for? I have no problem with trying music for free, but you should pay if you want to keep it.


RE: So...
By just4U on 4/18/2009 12:03:24 PM , Rating: 2
It's a grey area.. and since you never really own the music you pay for it's a moot point. Laws have to change to reflect the times we live in. As it stands the masses can allmost all be labeled common thieves or criminals and that's not right.


RE: So...
By kellehair on 4/17/2009 12:18:42 PM , Rating: 5
This whole trial is guilty of promoting copyright infringement.


RE: So...
By ggordonliddy on 4/17/2009 7:12:01 PM , Rating: 4
You're out of order, and this whole damn court is out of order.


Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By Motoman on 4/17/2009 12:26:33 PM , Rating: 1
...this is a very sad day for people with brains in their heads.

In other news, Miller Brewing shuttered after having been convicted of enabling people to drive drunk. John Deere forced into bankruptcy because their tractors can be used to run people over. And water has now been declared illegal in all 50 states, since it is implicated in every case of drowning and shark attacks, ever.

Hopefully the appeal will be set before a less luddite court. A court that will not only understand the fundamental fact that TPB is no more responsible for people using it's service for illegal purposes than Microsoft is responsible for people using Word to type and print bomb threats. A court that hopefully will understand that there's not actually any particular importance to TPB anyway, and that shuttering them will have noe effect whatsoever on piracy at all.

Well, we can dream. But as Einstein once said, "only the universe and human stupidity are infinite...and I'm not so sure about the former."




RE: Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By Motoman on 4/17/2009 12:55:12 PM , Rating: 1
Also, I felt compelled to copy & paste from my own previous comment on a previous TPB thread, because this is really the nut of what the problem is with the very concept of this trial:

quote:
Any conviction of any computing service/product in this light, as being held responsible for the illegal actions of the people who use it, would set a precedent that would signal the end of the information age. Because the very first time a court rules that any product/service can be held accountable for what users do with it, you can then use that ruling to outlaw *every* computing technology across the board, because there is not a single piece of computing technology, whether product or service, that can't be used for ill of some kind.

For that reason, not only does <this> arguement fail, but all arguements against computing products/services fail, and must fail, because if they were ever to be held up in a court of law and used to prosecute against a product/service, then the era of computing is over.


...that is exactly the precedent that has just been set. If this decision is left to stand, the same exact argument can be used against every piece of technology ever created. Starting with obvious things, like Google (which finds illegal content for you just as easy as TPB), FireFox (which allows you to use things like TPB and Google), Microsoft Word and all other word processors (for example, how many times do you think word processors have enabled the plagiarism of other people's work in, say, college or research papers?), so on and so forth.

Welcome to the end of the world.


RE: Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By artemicion on 4/17/2009 8:13:31 PM , Rating: 4
Why this is not the end of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea

"The act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty."

The act at issue is "promoting other people's infringements of copyright law", which basically sounds like being an accomplice to copyright violation.

In order to find someone guilty of this crime we would need an act (actus reus) AND intention (mens rea) in order to find someone guilty.

The requirement of intention is why there's a difference between a) a guy that sells someone a gun that happens to be used in a murder; and b) a guy that sells someone a gun and says "I want you to kill this person for me".

Person a) would not be guilty of "promoting other people's murder" because he lacked mens rea. Person b) would be guilty because he did have mens rea (intention).

Miller Brewing, John Deere, water, and Microsoft Word would all definitely fall in category a): people/entities who may have aided in the commission of crimes, but lacked intent.

I'm no expert on Swedish law, but I suspect what happened was that TPB put forth evidence disclaiming intention, such as "80% of our torrents are legal" and "we barely make a profit from running this site".

Prosecution countered with evidence of intention, such as "um, the name of your site is THE PIRATE BAY".

Jury found for prosecution.

Case closed.


RE: Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By Motoman on 4/18/2009 2:02:49 PM , Rating: 2
Very cute, except for one small problem: there is no way, and almost certainly never will be a way, to determine mens rea.

You can just as easily say that somebody who developed code for any given word processor had an intention to make it easier for people to commit plagiarism. And, like arguing for or against the existance of god(s), there is no way to prove or disprove that.

The guys at TPB can just as easily say they're just huge fans of Johnny Depp, and that's why they called their site "The Pirate Bay." Which ultimately makes no difference anyway - if they'd called it something else - say, Demonoid, or TorrentSpy, or Bob - the lawsuit would still have been brought with the same arguments.

The same arguments can be used without alteration against Google and other search engines. No changes necessary.

So, while there may be some noble theory to what you've posted, it's utterly inapplicable to the real world, where the best you could hope for is a he-said-she-said about what someone's intentions were (or were not).


RE: Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By artemicion on 4/18/2009 8:50:25 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Very cute, except for one small problem: there is no way, and almost certainly never will be a way, to determine mens rea.


Dude, this is the way criminal law works. I mean, it's almost not worth arguing with you over because if you don't believe it, I can't help you. Every crime (with the exception of strict liability crimes, a small subset of specialized crimes that don't require proof of intent, such as statutory rape - you don't have to prove that the guy knew the girl was under 16) requires proof of mens rea. Ask any district attorney or public defender out there. Most crimes require you to prove intent.

quote:
You can just as easily say that somebody who developed code for any given word processor had an intention to make it easier for people to commit plagiarism. And, like arguing for or against the existance of god(s), there is no way to prove or disprove that.


Yes, you cannot prove to a certainty what a person's intent is. You can't prove ANYTHING to a certainty. Gravity hasn't been proven to a certainty. OJ murdering Anna Nicole wasn't proven to a certainty. But we can prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. Hey, that sounds familiar . . .

quote:
where the best you could hope for is a he-said-she-said about what someone's intentions were (or were not).


Every trial is he-said-she-said, I dunno if you realize this. That's what the factfinder (judge in a bench trial, jury in a jury trial) does - party A says one thing, party B says another thing, then judge/jury decides who's telling the truth.

You're fighting against a wall here dude. I'm just telling you this is how criminal law works in due process countries. You have to prove intent. Theft is defined as the taking of another person's property without that person's consent. Do you know why people who accidentally take another person's umbrella home from the office aren't afraid of being prosecuted for theft? Because the prosecutor can't prove INTENT.

There's ALREADY statutes criminalizing assisting in the commission of a crime and your proposed slippery slope has not occurred. Punishing people who assist others in violating copyrights is not going to end the world.

You're afraid Google is going to get in trouble because they helped people find Pirate Bay. You're afraid Dell is going to get in trouble because they built the computers that people used to find Pirate Bay. You're afraid Mountain Dew is going to get in trouble because they made the drink that provided sustenance to the people who used Pirate Bay.

And I'm telling you, Faberware is NOT afraid they are going to get in trouble because they made the knife that was used to stab someone. Nike is NOT afraid that they are going to get in trouble because they made the shoes that allowed the guy to run from the police. The murderer's grandmother is NOT afraid that she is going to get in trouble because she gave birth to the woman who gave birth to the guy who murdered the victim.

I'm trying to make an analogy here. You don't get in trouble if you don't have the INTENT to assist someone else in committing the crime. The Swedish Court determined (and not unreasonably) that the founders of Pirate Bay had the intent to assist others in violating copyright laws. They are guilty of assisting the violation of copyright laws.

quote:
The guys at TPB can just as easily say they're just huge fans of Johnny Depp, and that's why they called their site "The Pirate Bay."


And if they brought that argument, I would call bullshit. And I'm guessing the Swedish Court also called bullshit (though I highly doubt that TPB's lawyers raised that idiotic argument).

If the Swedish Court tries to prosecute Google, they are going to fail. They will be OVERWHELMED with evidence that Google was not invented with the intent to assist others in violating copyright laws.

There is nothing wrong here.


RE: Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By Motoman on 4/19/2009 1:37:38 AM , Rating: 1
Sorry, don't buy it. TPB doesn't have any real interaction with anything happening with their service. It's all peer-to-peer. It's not the same as a bartender serving drinks...it's more like TPB owns a plot of land and put up a sign saying "free public use." Some people will come and have a nice little picnic. Other people will use that land as a base for selling drugs and pimping hos.

As for the importance you seem to be applying to the name "The Pirate Bay" - do you honestly think this lawsuit wouldn't have been lodged if they called it "The Fluffy Bunny Happy Land?" Or..."Demonoid?" A name is BS in all cases. But if you're right, then every torrent tracking site that doesn't have "pirate" in it's name must be in the clear then, right, since they aren't demonstrating any intent for people to trade illicit files?

Hmmm...you know, I have some prime real estate in Florida you might be interested in...


By SiliconDoc on 4/25/2009 7:11:19 AM , Rating: 2
He made some very foolish arguments like every case is he said she said... declaring a direct opposite to common law and the magna carta, and our very justice system which declares TWO witnesses must be the accusors..., and pretends like the most recently famous clinton Lewinsky scandal, like a braindead zombie - he said she said was all there was.
No, in fact the JUST CASES have a lot more than he said she said, or they would be THROWN OUT IMMEDIATELY. (nowadays they often are not)
With people like him who get part of the concepts then exagerrate, lie, or fudge the rest, people like NIFONG are on a RAMPANT RISE in our society.
turns out the judge along with the prosecutors were corrupt in this case, it has been revealed the judge has a huge conflict of interst, which like any piece of crap he has denied after the trials conclusion.
Criminals are prosecuting nowadays, sitting on benches, and afterwards LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH.
If there was justice, the judge would be barred, debenched, and imprisoned, the case, tossed, and a second or third or fourth run at the entity, BANNED FOREVER.
But our society and the world does not function properly on common law and common decency anymore.
It demands the right to abuse and imprison with lying criminal dogs heading up the people's side of that equation, and when they are caught red handed, it demands an endless number of do-overs, and therefore promotes it own dedcaying, corrupt body, soon to be a disgusting carcass, if things don't change.
Justice is not the powers that be breaking every rule and restraint placed upon them for the good of the people, by the people, and for the people, then telling the people to go blow, that they did nothing wrong.
This is where we are - the age of NIFONG, the FBI humping their star government witness and destroying and deleting exculpatory evidence for the defense, cops beating the suspects, tasing them to death in group sessions and lying about it, the police chiefs getting on Tv and lying to cover it up, Congress making what has long been illegal, legal for robbery and scam reasons, pumping it for decads, getting caught, and stealing trillions in the cover up and fix it up obstruction works...
Nope, as far as I'm concerned the corrupt judge in cahoots with the same organized prosecutors LIED, covered up the conflict of interest, got exposed after their pre-determined lying and coersion, AND LOST THE CHANCE FOR THE PUBLIC TO HAVE JUSTICE. END OF STORY, END OF CASE - NOW PUT THE JUDGE IN PRISON WHERE HE BELONGS.


RE: Stupid, stupid rat creatures...
By Scott66 on 4/18/2009 7:46:50 PM , Rating: 2
While Miller won't be charged for enabling drunk drivers, bartenders are held liable for overserving alcohol. If you are using Miller and JD as examples then independent musicians should be thrown in jail for what Pirate Bay has been accused of, because the artists are the makers of the "drink".

Pirate Bay is the bartender of the music and movie sharing, where 80 percent (Using PB's numbers) are responsible drinkers but the other 20 percent are willing to break the laws of the land.

If you don't like the laws, change them.


Good for Sweden!
By noirsoft on 4/17/2009 4:51:11 PM , Rating: 1
Good news for anyone who actually cares about artists. The PirateBay idiots try to say it about freedom or some nonsense, but everyone knows it's about getting something for free. "I deserve to watch all the movies and hear all the music I want without paying for it!"

I'm glad the court saw through their PR-friendly but ultimately baseless arguments.

If people actually abided by Fair Use, instead of hiding behind it to justify stealing copyrighted works, then the media industries would not have to implement DRM schemes.




RE: Good for Sweden!
By adiposity on 4/17/2009 8:16:00 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
If people actually abided by Fair Use, instead of hiding behind it to justify stealing copyrighted works, then the media industries would not have to implement DRM schemes.


Yeah, but they would anyway. The media goes after legitimate fair use as well as clear-cut piracy. They do not like fair use. The stronger the piracy laws, the easier it is for them to do it, too.

As for artists, if you know any that aren't being played on the radio (i.e., the majority), I think you might be surprised by their opinion. Most of them support the "viral" spreading of their works, for obvious reasons. Even Radiohead gave away their album for free, and stated that they made more money on that album than all their previous albums combined...

Not that any of this justifies breaking the law, which users of TPB regularly do. The creators, however, have not necessarily broken any laws just by providing the site, although I don't know the laws in their country very well. But to pretend that "this is great for the artists" is pretty naive. For one, it will have no effect. For two, it's pretty difficult to demonstrate that TPB hurt even one artist.

-Dan


RE: Good for Sweden!
By OblivionMage on 4/17/2009 11:15:19 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Good news for anyone who actually cares about artists. The PirateBay idiots try to say it about freedom or some nonsense, but everyone knows it's about getting something for free. "I deserve to watch all the movies and hear all the music I want without paying for it!" I'm glad the court saw through their PR-friendly but ultimately baseless arguments. If people actually abided by Fair Use, instead of hiding behind it to justify stealing copyrighted works, then the media industries would not have to implement DRM schemes.


Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.

Baseless arguements? My oh my, did you even read and compare the arguements from both of the sides?


RE: Good for Sweden!
By OblivionMage on 4/17/2009 11:23:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Good news for anyone who actually cares about artists.


Sorry, but I had to make another reply...WHAT?!

Are you saying that artists were hurt by The Pirate Bay?

If so, then your not basing your arguement off of ANYTHING but your own opinion and blatantly ignoring the multiple contradicting studies that were done. Plus, you must not know that out of a 20$ cd, artists only recieve 5% of the profits, and, seriously, its much better when people decide what is good music, rather then the corporate machine.

And, honestly, what artists have you heard of that said they were 'hurt' by file-sharing? ((I'm not talking about bsing, corporate-owned, ignorent fools)) Have you not heard of more saying that they fully endorse file-sharing?

Please, take a good look at the issue. Destroy your base assumptions, and rebuild your pyramid of knowledge. If you come to the same conclusion, then so be it, but, I implore you, try to see it another way; who knows you may never go back.


RE: Good for Sweden!
By OblivionMage on 4/17/2009 11:27:31 PM , Rating: 2
Ack, another little thing to reply with (I know, alot of replies).

You make the arguement that people just want things for free. Well, I'm really not so sure about that; I'd gladly wager that the majority of file-sharers would pay 5$ per album if it all went to the artist - thus reassuring them that their contribution is meaningful. There is money to be made from such a system - one could argue that "Oh, well then no more music would be made, as people wouldn't make enough money...," and I'd call bs; As long as people like music it will exist - simple supply and demand. There is enough money to be made from concerts and sales (which would, by all accounts, be HIGHER from file-sharing anyways).

I mean... I can't even begin to understand your arguements. Its all Greek to me :(


RE: Good for Sweden!
By PrinceGaz on 4/18/2009 7:51:04 PM , Rating: 2
I used to buy CDs at around £10 each (US$14 or so currently) before the days of file-sharing, but as far as I know, the artists would be lucky to receive even £1 of the amount I paid (the rest being spread between the record-store, recording-studio etc). They may not even have received £1 of the £10 I paid.

As such, a system where music is made available for free and people pay a fair price for what they like makes sense. Instead of buying one CD for £10, I could download ten CDs worth of tracks for free, then decide which to delete, and which I feel the band are worthy of being credited for their work. If I decide one of those group's album is worth £2, and another worth £1, and the other eight not worth paying for, overall they're still better off by receiving that money directly (minus transaction costs), than my buying one CD. Cut out the middle-men as they're no longer needed in the internat age.

The internet offers choice, and the ultimate choice in how you reward the people whose content you download. You can pay nothing if you wish (or can't), but most fans of a group will want them to produce more material and pay them more than they'd have received from a record company.


RE: Good for Sweden!
By Scott66 on 4/18/09, Rating: 0
The title needs updating
By Owik2008 on 4/17/2009 10:00:04 AM , Rating: 5
They left off the "AAArrrrrgggh" in the news title.

"AAArrrrrgggh, Swedish Court Sends Pirate Bay Leaders to the Brig, Takes Their Bounty"




RE: The title needs updating
By RSutcliffe on 4/17/2009 10:31:15 AM , Rating: 1
Aaaarghh, looks like Demonoid accounts might become a little more popular :)


As usual
By Wierdo on 4/17/2009 11:09:26 AM , Rating: 2
Politics trump other factors, be they legal or social. The tide may turn as the street becomes more aware of corporate assault on the culture, and as politicians start looking more and more detached from its populace, hopefully leading to a change in representation at some point.




RE: As usual
By AntiM on 4/17/2009 11:34:51 AM , Rating: 2
You're right about that. When I read about the trial, I knew it was a forgone conclusion that they would be found guilty. The verdict was decided before the trial even began. The verdict sets a bad precedent. The politicians and money grubbers (well.. I guess they're the same) are dancing with glee.
This sets the stage for more trials and lawsuits and DPI. Now governments have a reason to monitor internet traffic. However, copyright infringement is not what they're worried about. There's a MUCH larger agenda here. Am I just a paranoid conspiracy nut? I don't know, .... I hope so.


RE: As usual
By SiliconDoc on 4/25/2009 6:26:16 AM , Rating: 2
AntiM - when the real robbers and pirates ganked trillions over the course of subprime decades, then got caught , then ganked tens of trillions in taxes and lied and obstructed justice and made prosecutors stand down, and apppointed the very criminal ceo tax cheats that colluded in the orignal massive thefts to do round #2 to save the world - a crime of such immense proportion mankind has never seen such a thing before - that stretched to every continent and every government in the entire world...
No, you're not really venturing into conspiracy, you're just a large swatch behind reality, and perhaps like most, not really wanting to admit the tremenous glaring demonic horror of it all.
It's much easier to pretend they were only all trying to help, while they steal 2 more decades worth of tax futures.


article misleading.
By Uncle on 4/17/2009 1:56:43 PM , Rating: 1
"The Pirate Bay was the world's largest torrent site;"
Last time I checked, just before I wrote this, It still is the largest torrent site. Secondly their not going to jail they have the right to appeal by May 9,09.. After reading your article, me thinks you do headlines for Fox News.




RE: article misleading.
By PascalT on 4/17/2009 9:30:27 PM , Rating: 2
I love it when they spend millions on trying to get some people to jail for doing stuff like this.

First it won't stop torrents at all, there's plenty of sites out there.

Second, why not spend money on stopping rapists and murderers? Those can actually hurt people.

Third, didn't they learn from Napster? The key is to legalize things like this and take a cut.

Fourth, you can't stop technology, stop fighting it.


RE: article misleading.
By Scott66 on 4/18/2009 7:59:34 PM , Rating: 1
Nobody is fighting the technology, it is what some people are doing with the technology.

A gun is very useful to hunt and protect oneself, unfortunately some use it to murder maim and steal. These people are criminals.

P2P is an amazing internet distribution tool, Search engines are liberators of digital information. Pity some use these tools to steal.

I agree with your third argument that PB should pay a cut to the musicians and so should the downloaders. Most people would be willing to do so, criminals won't.


RE: article misleading.
By cunning plan on 4/20/2009 8:48:09 AM , Rating: 1
Its only stealing because the laws that were created before the technological and modern age of the internet state it is.

A good example of antiquated laws would be an ancient law that made it OK to shoot a Welshman with a longbow has never officially been repealed - but it can only take place within the city walls of Chester (England) and only 'after midnight' (though quite how long 'after midnight' lasts is anyone's guess).

Stealing is stealing. But this is not about stealing, this is about redistributing the funds to the people who produce the product - the bands and artists - instead of the countless middlemen and recording industry.

There are plenty of whole-sale / buy direct type places around - they are popular because they offer goods at a lower price which they can do due to their low overheads. You can see the parallel.

The old business model where a record label decides what we should all listen to, floods the airwaves with it, slaps over-priced CDs in stores was great before the internet. The internet now opens up much more exciting and direct possibilities. The record companies can still have their share, they just have to change the way they obtain it instead of fighting cases like this with the intention to keep their old and now flawed business model.

The problem is, they are fighting to keep their old business model using laws that are still current but as I have explained, the law also needs to change to reflect new technology.


So when do they sue Google?
By chmilz on 4/17/2009 11:16:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
"promoting other people's infringements of copyright laws."

As if every single search engine and web browser isn't now guilty of exactly the same thing. Firefox allows me to use Google, which allows me to find TPB. I'm sure I can find illegal stuff using just Google alone, without ever going to TBP.




RE: So when do they sue Google?
By cerx on 4/17/2009 4:52:38 PM , Rating: 2
Just add "torrent" to your search ...


Shouldn't it be takes their BOOTY?
By aguilpa1 on 4/17/2009 12:05:36 PM , Rating: 2
I'm just saying...




By sbtech on 4/17/2009 2:43:16 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah. It should be booty :D


In other news...
By Hieyeck on 4/17/2009 3:00:28 PM , Rating: 2
Anyone who has ever used Copy + Paste has been found guilty plagiarism.




RE: In other news...
By cunning plan on 4/20/2009 8:52:17 AM , Rating: 2
I agree, I mean anyone who has ever used Copy + Paste has been found guilty plagiarism.


Dang.
By rburnham on 4/17/2009 11:36:38 AM , Rating: 3
Now where are people going to find bad, low-budget, hard-to-find horror movies? Movies like Slime City and Bloodspit will go unwatched by millions!




Judicial system of Sweden
By Eri Hyva on 4/17/2009 7:37:56 PM , Rating: 3
Nobody is going to jail.
This courthouse show is lasting for years, so no need to hold you breath.
The Piratebay crew are free to walk on streets for at least next 4-5 years.

This was just the verdict of a district court, The Piratebay is going to make an appeal to a court of appeal, and after that there is Supreme Court of Sweden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Sw...

There is huge interest into this case in Sweden, Pirate Party
http://www.piratpartiet.se/international/
is the 4th largest party (by membership) in the country, and the media has been covering this trial heavily. And will be, for years to come.

And one of the "boys", Carl Lundström, has promised to pay all the fines for the TPB crew.

Translated to English, if your Swedish is not so good:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t...

The Piratebay News conference (by Peter Sunde):
http://bambuser.com/v/114361
also on TPB, of course.

But like I said, this trial is going to last for years. And so until the final judgment the TPB servers in Sweden work as good as before the trial.




By grebe925 on 4/17/2009 11:02:57 PM , Rating: 3
All I can say to the movie/music moguls is: what a bunch of idiots.

Transferring your B&M business model to the internet ain't gonna work. The days of packaging bits and selling them in stores at exorbitant prices is over. Get over it.

You need a new business model.




By Belard on 4/17/2009 5:08:34 PM , Rating: 2
Get down to the basics, TPB is just a search engine.

Google could be sued with their links to pictures and videos. Even the Dailytech has a photo from Pirates of the Caribbean. Oh now, Dailytech is a supporter of piracy!




By ayat101 on 4/18/2009 2:48:05 AM , Rating: 2
What TV stations SHOULD offer are regionally coded and perhaps personally tailored ads slotted in HIGH quality downloadable files. The ads would be glued in the file when the download is requested. Even offer a player that will check if each ad is watched and upload that info to the server (WITH USER PERMISSION!). You could slot web links into the ads, etc... and so on, and so on. There are various possible schemes for designing systems like this, but whatever and to each their fancy...

Then there would be NO NEED for torrents or illegal P2P, but the advertising revenue system could be maintained.

Of course the two side effects of this would be the canibalisation of hardcopy sales (DVD and BluRay), and the death of classic tv stations.

I am not entirely sure if the death of hardcopies would reduce revenues and if so by how much? Or if targeted advertising would actualy increase the money earned through its higher value? Either way keeping hardcopy market around is artificial and not needed for the consumer.

The death of tv stations in favour of on demand viewing is the BIGGIE. Not unlike newspapers and magazines are already dying. There are LARGE sums of money involved and the tv industry will fight this.

Of course there are new opportunities to reinvent tv stations or networks are content servers and advertising sellers... or if they do not reinvent themselves, somebody else will move in and take up this business niche.

So this whole anti-P2P and anti-piracy IS NOT about stealing and people not getting paid for their work as a result. It is ENTIRELY about OLD INTERESTS unwilling to change the way they do business. The illegal downloads scene is a symptom of TPTB in a way unwilling to get paid for their work in a consumer friendly system. Sooner or later what I describe is the future of entertainment delivery, it's just a question of who of the existing players will adapt and how soon and how well they will do it. For me I say: FIGHT FOR THE FUTURE! :)

An annoying side-effect of this conflict is that the social group most likely to use P2P to get entertainment is the most desired advertising demographic. This group likes to watch certain type of shows, and then these shows have lower ratings because they leak viewers to downloads. The end result is shows get cancelled. For example how many sci-fi shows are getting axed in recent memory? How hard is it for them to survive these days?

Solutions:

1. Stop being lazy and start using trackless torrents.

2. Start getting to know people, setting up and using darknet types of networks (WASTE is one - look it up).

3. Start using protocol obfuscation, encryption, etc.

4. All of the above and go back to using emule over KAD (no servers needed).




By omgwtf8888 on 4/20/2009 12:33:40 PM , Rating: 2
What annoys me about the recording industry is that they tout how they are losing money, yet they are making fistfulls by selling digital music devices, memory sticks, and bland cds. The record companies are not losing money, just the artists are. Much like the Beatles screwed over the record companies of the day and opened apple records, I hope more artists bypass the recording industry and go straight to web distribution. Hopefully google or amazon could start special music search components and route people to these artists sites and bring the end of the recording industry. I personally hate that i have had to rebuy the music i like in at least 4 different forms already (LPs, 8 track, cassette, and Cd). The recording industry has abused the copyright laws like no other party in history. Personally i think anything that was recorded on a previous medium should be in the public domain.




Justice ?
By Beenthere on 4/17/09, Rating: -1
RE: Justice ?
By codeThug on 4/17/2009 5:00:05 PM , Rating: 5
Of course you are referring the recording company execs.


"When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song." -- Sony BMG attorney Jennifer Pariser














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