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IPCC co-chairs for Netherlands and Sierra Leone debate changes to the Report Summary.
Comprehensive survey of published climate research reveals changing viewpoints

In 2004, history professor Naomi Oreskes performed a survey of research papers on climate change. Examining peer-reviewed papers published on the ISI Web of Science database from 1993 to 2003, she found a majority supported the "consensus view," defined as humans were having at least some effect on global climate change. Oreskes' work has been repeatedly cited, but as some of its data is now nearly 15 years old, its conclusions are becoming somewhat dated.

Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte recently updated this research. Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. The results have been submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, of which DailyTech has obtained a pre-publication copy. The figures are surprising.

Of 528 total papers on climate change, only 38 (7%) gave an explicit endorsement of the consensus. If one considers "implicit" endorsement (accepting the consensus without explicit statement), the figure rises to 45%. However, while only 32 papers (6%) reject the consensus outright, the largest category  (48%) are neutral papers, refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis.  This is no "consensus."

The figures are even more shocking when one remembers the watered-down definition of  consensus here.  Not only does it not require supporting that man is the "primary" cause of warming, but it doesn't require any belief or support for "catastrophic" global warming.  In fact of all papers published in this period (2004 to February 2007), only a single one makes any reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results.

These changing viewpoints represent the advances in climate science over the past decade. While today we are even more certain the earth is warming, we are less certain about the root causes. More importantly, research has shown us that -- whatever the cause may be -- the amount of warming is unlikely to cause any great calamity for mankind or the planet itself.

Schulte's survey contradicts the United Nation IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report (2007), which gave a figure of "90% likely" man was having an impact on world temperatures. But does the IPCC represent a consensus view of world scientists? Despite media claims of "thousands of scientists" involved in the report, the actual text is written by a much smaller number of "lead authors." The introductory "Summary for Policymakers" -- the only portion usually quoted in the media -- is written not by scientists at all, but by politicians, and approved, word-by-word, by political representatives from member nations. By IPCC policy, the individual report chapters -- the only text actually written by scientists -- are edited to "ensure compliance" with the summary, which is typically published months before the actual report itself.

By contrast, the ISI Web of Science database covers 8,700 journals and publications, including every leading scientific journal in the world.


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Of course
By Murst on 8/29/2007 3:26:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not only does it not require supporting that man is the "primary" cause of warming


It would be silly to blame man.. there's many more women out there.

Also, is there really anyone out there arguing that humans have more to do with warming than our sun?

------------------------------------------------- -----

On a more serious note, its sad how DT has turned completely biased in the global warming issue after masher started blogging. The least you could do is get another blogger who offers a different perspective.




RE: Of course
By James Holden on 8/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Of course
By Murst on 8/29/2007 3:33:48 PM , Rating: 2
I must have missed something. What does that have to do with global warming?


RE: Of course
By James Holden on 8/29/2007 3:39:30 PM , Rating: 2
Read his posts and comments. It was my understanding DT picked him up just for anti-anti-GW stuff.


RE: Of course
By Murst on 8/29/2007 3:45:05 PM , Rating: 2
Well, although we don't have much to go by yet (2 blogs so far - 1 of which is about the environment), I'm hoping you're right.

I'm rather uneducated when it comes to environmental issues, and it'd be nice to have both sides of the story.


RE: Of course
By TheGreek on 8/29/2007 3:54:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it'd be nice to have both sides of the story.

Having 2 honest and objective sides would be even better.

Let us know when you find such a place.


RE: Of course
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 4:00:37 PM , Rating: 3
I don't think that complete coverage of the "consensus" view here at DT is really necessary, since there is already coverage to the point of saturation by the mainstream news media.

The point of Michael's posts is to point out the many flaws in the "consensus" view, i.e., to help balance out the overall global warming reporting and show that there is anything but a "consensus."


RE: Of course
By Martimus on 8/29/2007 9:20:23 PM , Rating: 2
Michael Asher is the only person I have seen writing about Global Warming on a regular basis. I don't remember ever seeing it in the so-called "main stream media". For the most part, no-one cares about global warming; at least not where I live. Of course we would generally welcome it, because it would mean longer summers and warmer winters. Maybe you live in a place that reports more on these things, but it isn't reported much around here. I did really like the article on pollution in Lake Michigan. That is actually important to me. I like to fish there, and I would hate it if another of our lakes got to the point that we can't eat out of it. There are way too many of them as it is.

While that article had nothing to do with Global Warming, or Nuclear Power, Michael Asher seemed to try to relate them to the article. It was actually comical.


RE: Of course
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 9:28:34 PM , Rating: 3
Are you kidding me? Global warming is in the mainstream news all time time, at least daily. Here, check this out:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=global+...


RE: Of course
By Hyperbole on 8/30/2007 11:31:24 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Are you kidding me? Global warming is in the mainstream news all time time, at least daily. Here, check this out:


http://www.globalwarminghype.com/


RE: Of course
By grenableu on 8/29/2007 9:35:14 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Michael Asher is the only person I have seen writing about Global Warming on a regular basis
Then your eyes are screwed shut tight. Every major media outlet has at least one, if not a whole team of of reporters dedicated to global warming and similar issues. There are so many of them, they even have their own organization, the Society of Environmental Journalists:

http://www.sej.org/

Here's a news story about the NY Times head environmental reporter, whose spent the last 12 years writing about global warming:

http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2007-04-12/news/1720...

I particularly like the song he sings at the end, which clearly shows his "impartiality" on the subject of climate change:

quote:
The lyrics for the chorus were, “Satan said/ come liberate carbon it’ll spin your wheels/ liberate carbon, it’ll nuke your meals/ liberate some carbon baby, it’s the American way.”


RE: Of course
By onelittleindian on 8/29/2007 10:02:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Satan said/ come liberate carbon it’ll spin your wheels/ liberate carbon, it’ll nuke your meals/ liberate some carbon baby, it’s the American way.”
These are the people writing our environmental news? Good god, no wonder its so messed up!


RE: Of course
By Martimus on 8/29/2007 10:18:25 PM , Rating: 3
I'm sorry that I don't read the New York Times. I mainly read the Detroit News, The Detroit Free Press, MLive.com, and the Oakland Press. None of them seem to cover global warming, or at least I have never read any global warming articles in any of them. I'm not sure how to "screw" an eye shut tight, but it sounds impressive.

I would like to see some more scientific opinions other than Mr. Asher's. I somewhat value his opinion, although he does have a minor columnist tint to his writing that makes me question his conclusions. It has that feeling that he has a theory that he is trying to prove, rather than trying to get as much information as possible out about the subject to make an informed decision. I started reading because I never thought much about the global warming theory, but I have only seen articles from him that discredit the theory, with nothing to point toward its merits. Every theory has merits, and avoiding pointing them out always seems to dull an argument.


RE: Of course
By rsmech on 8/30/2007 12:41:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would like to see some more scientific opinions other than Mr. Asher's


There aren't that is why it's sold to the mainstream media. If you want facts listen to Al Gore or watch his movie, what he says is consensus.

There are many more examples, I'm just poking fun at. This sites "bias" is just the other side of an issue. It's like David & Goliath. The other sides information outlet is so huge in comparison. If you think these articles are suspect, you have the option to say so, you don't get the same satisfaction with the other major outlet. The author even reads the comments. That is why it is so sad when the other side talks about facts and all they can do is personally attack the author. They can't support their ideas with facts, only emotions. As has been said before if you can come up with a good argument for the other side of the coin you have an option to have it featured here. As of yet I have seen no takers, is the other side so lacking of facts that no one can create such a story?


RE: Of course
By Martimus on 8/30/2007 3:23:36 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, but news stations are almost always some sort of editorial. I haven't trusted a story on the news in a long time. I really just want an unbiased article. They aren't vey popular these days, because they don't cause controversy, and so don't get as many "hits", or as high of a rating. I am too old to care about this he-said, she-said type of reporting. I am used to writing articles that show both sides of an argment, and then give reasoning as to why I consider one side more valid. That is what I would like to see on this subject. I don't want a Rush Limbaugh type response that just brushes aside any opposing views, and openly invites fighting. I don't care who is right, I just want to know the truth.


RE: Of course
By dever on 9/12/2007 3:22:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Michael Asher is the only person I have seen writing about Global Warming on a regular basis. I don't remember ever seeing it in the so-called "main stream media"
quote:
Maybe you live in a place that reports more on these things, but it isn't reported much around here.
And you live in... Uranus?


RE: Of course
By rsmech on 8/30/2007 12:26:32 PM , Rating: 3
Turn on your TV for the other side of the story. I'm glad to see this because there was no other side to TV & mass media.


RE: Of course
By East17 on 9/5/07, Rating: -1
RE: Of course
By peteyboy64 on 9/25/2007 10:22:10 AM , Rating: 1
What lies? Apparently the "consensus" idea comes from the ISI Web of Science database. That was in the 1st paragraph. The whole article is based on Dr. Oreskes research from those papers, and her claim of "consensus" based on that research. The subsequent study from the same database found the opposite of what the doctor had found. The 1st paragraph again:

In 2004, history professor Naomi Oreskes performed a survey of research papers on climate change. Examining peer-reviewed papers published on the ISI Web of Science database from 1993 to 2003, she found a majority supported the "consensus view," defined as humans were having at least some effect on global climate change. Oreskes' work has been repeatedly cited, but as some of its data is now nearly 15 years old, its conclusions are becoming somewhat dated.

Perhaps Dr. Oreskes should have followed your advice with the "consensus" with her research, It's not "ALL the scientists" but only "the papers published in the ISI Web of Science database". That would have prompted less knee jerking from all the Chicken Littles that want research monies from a fear-induced public.


RE: Of course
By JasonMick (blog) on 8/29/2007 4:08:39 PM , Rating: 5
Ask and ye shall receive good sir.

I have started a blog, and intend to post a mixture of tech and environmental posts, and in the environmental posts I expect to be taking a rather opposing viewpoint to some of Michael Asher's opinions.

I should be airing a new pro-environment protection/conservation piece tomorrow, I expect.

Also, all who read this, bear in mind--if someone lets a person's op ed sway their opinion without reading solid science and facts, then they are lost in my mind.

I do love the comments and debating, but keep in mind, you should always closely read the sources quoted, and ask for sources, where none are stated.


RE: Of course
By Murst on 8/29/2007 4:51:50 PM , Rating: 2
I'm looking forward to it ;)


RE: Of course
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 5:56:08 PM , Rating: 5
Jason, you seem to imply that Michael is anti-environmental protection and anti-conservation. Although I don't know him personally, I don't get that at all from his writings here at DT. I think you're wrong about that.

But have fun in any case!


RE: Of course
By Rovemelt on 8/29/2007 8:15:20 PM , Rating: 1
Bwahahahhahahahahahahahaahhahahahaha

ahhh... ahem. good one TomZ! wow! Yea, that was FUN!


RE: Of course
By 16nm on 8/29/2007 8:45:03 PM , Rating: 5
I love the enviroment. I love the outdoors, sports and camping. I am very concerned about the future of our planet. I think we should not jump to conclusions and overreact with regard to Global Warming. When I read MAsher #2's articles, I am left with the idea that he is a very objective person and not at all against the environment or pro-business or whatever it would be when you don't give a damn about Global Warming. He seems to be saying that we should just gather the facts and be sure about them before acting. (That actually maybe repeating him word for word.) This seems very reasonable to me. For God's sake, people, other planets in our solar system are suffering from Global Warming! would that not be one hell of a coincidence? THat should be enough to tell you that we need to sit back and rethink this whole global warming phenomenon.


RE: Of course
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 9:44:15 PM , Rating: 2
If you want to try to ridicule me, then at least give me one quote - just one - that supports the view that Michael is anti-environment or anti-conservation. Just one will be fine. Please, go ahead, we're waiting...


RE: Of course
By Schrag4 on 8/30/2007 2:42:51 PM , Rating: 4
*crickets chirping*

Rovemelt (or anyone) seems unwilling to step up, so let me see if I can't figure out why he said that...

I think Rovemelt equates 'not bending over backward to reduce carbon emissions' with being anti-enviroinment. I would agree with you that Michael is most likely not anti-environment and not even anti-conservation. The point that I see Michael trying to make is that alarmists shouldn't be telling me what I can and can't do based on science that isn't even science, based on a concensus that's not even a concensus.

I'm sure Michael, just like me, would LOVE to reduce gas consumption, electricity consumption, all consumption. But I'm not going to do what I can't afford to make that happen. And I wouldn't ask anyone else to spend money they don't have for this cause either. I'm going to feed and clothe my children first, and that's what really matters. Once I see proof that my grandchildren or their grandchildren, etc. will die because I drove a car to work then I'll change my ways. As it stands, however, the argument for 'man-made GW with C02 being the cause' seems extremely weak in my opinion, and apparently in the opinion of the majority of scientific publications from 2004 to 2007.


RE: Of course
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 3:32:24 PM , Rating: 3
^--- hits the nail on the head!

I feel like I can identify with Michael, although I don't know him personally, because we are somewhat like minded, (even though his IQ is probably 2x mine). Even though I rail here against the so-called global warming consensus, I am also busy at home replacing incandescent bulbs with CFLs, adjusting the (auto-setback) thermostat, I often bike into town to run errands instead of starting the car, we combine errands to reduce car trips, we keep our cars running well and don't overbuy in terms of size/weight, recycling our waste, etc.

Because of this, I don't see any tension at all between being a GW skeptic and still at the same time working to conserve energy (also to save cost) and reducing our impact, while at the same time maintaining a decent standard of living for my family.


RE: Of course
By mars777 on 9/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: Of course
By Poptech on 9/1/2007 11:56:49 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Saving nature means sacrifice.

Saving Nature from what? CO2?

" CO2 for different people has different attractions. After all, what is it? - it’s not a pollutant, it’s a product of every living creature’s breathing, it’s the product of all plant respiration, it is essential for plant life and photosynthesis, it’s a product of all industrial burning, it’s a product of driving – I mean, if you ever wanted a leverage point to control everything from exhalation to driving, this would be a dream. So it has a kind of fundamental attractiveness to bureaucratic mentality. "

- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT

quote:
Global warming has some serious effects before you can actually say it is 5 Celsius warmer than 10 years before.

Where the hell are you getting your numbers from?

Global surface temperatures have increased only about 0.6°C in the last 100 years. (IPCC)

quote:
Like tsunami, tornadoes...

Link between climate change and tropical cyclone intensity: more research necessary (World Meteorological Organization)
http://www.wmo.ch/pages/mediacentre/news/archive/n...

"A consensus of 125 of the world’s leading tropical cyclone researchers and forecasters says that no firm link can yet be drawn between human-induced climate change and variations in the intensity and frequency of tropical cyclones."

Tornadoes not Linked to Global Warming (Eugene Tackle, Ph.D. Professor of Atmospheric Science, Iowa State University)
http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=289


RE: Of course
By Schrag4 on 9/2/2007 10:18:44 PM , Rating: 5
"Saving nature means sacrifice."

You're right, I should move my family into the woods and trap squirrels to survive. Meanwhile you can keep destroying mother nature by using a computer to post on this site. I mean, you have to sacrifice for YOUR 'cause' by polluting in order to convert people like me, right? Kinda like why Gore needs to spend 13,000 bucks on electricity at his home in a single month? I'm sure it's all used to spread the word about conservation.

Seriously though, you totally missed my point. At some time in the very near future, most of the technology that I use will become obsolete, and will be replaced with technology that uses less resources. I'm all for this. However, I won't be on the bleeding edge of energy saving techniques because I can't afford to. I'm sorry, I gotta feed my kids (who you say are dead anyway because of global warming...)

Let me give you a direct example of this. I personally believe that tankless water heaters are a PERFECT way to use much less gas (when compared to your typical 40 gallon water heater), and if you buy a big enough one, it will always give you hot water, even if you run it all day and all night. However, when my old 40 gallon water heater died, spilling water all over my basement, I didn't get a tankless water heater. I was more than willing to plunk down the 500-600 bucks (vs 200 for a tank) but the area where the heater goes didn't have the proper ventilation, and I was quoted 2,000 bucks just for the installation. I'm sorry, I can't afford that. Meaning, my kids wouldn't eat or have clothes if I'd gone with the tankless. If you say "screw your kids, get the tankless" then you're an idiot.

My point is that it's not as cut and dried as you'd like everyone to believe. You can't just push for 'green' over everything else. You have to weigh other factors in your decisions. Is it really worth sacrificing to go as green as possible? If you truely believed that then you should really kill yourself, because we all produce CO2 just by breathing. If you're not willing to do that then where do you draw the line? And why should I draw it at the same place? I'm ok with you telling me where the line is for you, just don't think I'm an idiot or an evil person if my circumstances don't allow me to draw it at the same place as you.

"Global warming has some serious effects before you can actually say it is 5 Celsius warmer than 10 years before."

I'm lost. Are you high? 5 Celcius? You're probably right, we'd be in some trouble if the temp rose 5C in 10 years. However, I don't think we could raise it 5C in 100 years if we tried as hard as we could. That's right, I believe that if the earth started cooling rapidly and the eggheads decided that we needed to raise the temp 5C, we couldn't do it if we tried. Hell, one could argue that we've unintentionally gone to great lengths to do just that over the last 150 years and we sure failed miserably.


RE: Of course
By Dactyl on 8/30/2007 1:58:49 PM , Rating: 2
I'm glad that DT's solution to the complaints about Mr. Asher is to bring in more voices rather than to shut him up.

Bravo DT!


RE: Of course
By Lord 666 on 9/4/2007 12:25:57 AM , Rating: 2
Who is complaining about him? If you don't agree, then voice your opinion publically or find another thread.

Maybe there should be threads about the First Admendment otherwise known as Freedom of Speech since Dailytech is a US based site.


RE: Of course
By grenableu on 8/29/2007 6:38:08 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The least you could do is get another blogger who offers a different perspective.
Why not raise the same objection to CNN, USAToday, The NYT, the Washington Post, the LA Times, or any other major media outlet? I never hear anything from them except "global warming is the end of the world", which no real scientist believes in.


RE: Of course
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 7:41:53 PM , Rating: 2
I totally agree. I read CNN a lot, and I am so sick of article after article they publish that attributes all sorts of secondary problems to human-induced global warming. And yet their journalists don't even have to cite a single study that proves their assertions.

But I've also accepted long ago that any subject that is in any way technical will probably get mangled by mass media.


RE: Of course
By Murst on 8/30/2007 10:53:02 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, I'd love to, but I doubt they'd care. Unlike CNN and such, at least I get the feeling that DT listens to its readers. Sure, if I'm the only one who feels like that, then ignore it. But if enough people voice an opinion one way or another, I'm sure DT would be happy to adjust, whereas it would take a miracle to change something about CNN or FOX.

(I'm not saying that CNN doesn't listen to its readers, but it is on a completely different scale than DT, Anandtech, etc)


It's called "Spin"
By Rovemelt on 8/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: It's called "Spin"
By porkpie on 8/29/2007 8:32:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Michael Asher is using spin here, as has been demonstrated time and time again
You keep claiming this, but every time someone calls you out, you run and hide. I think its clear who here is using facts and who is doing the "spinning".

quote:
He's not qualified to be preaching about details of climate science.
The climatologists he quotes in his articles are. Thats how journalism works, see. You write an article and cite your sources. Asher certainly seems to know more about the basic science than the monkeys who write CNN's environmental news.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By Rovemelt on 8/29/2007 9:08:51 PM , Rating: 1
Conservative spin also brought us those WMD's in Iraq

The idea that privatized health care would serve all Americans well

I've shown TOO many times that Asher is just wrong. You just won't listen. I could give you my credentials, but you won't listen. You only want to hear happy-shiny pony stories about our future like a little girl. Be a man already...take responsibility like an adult.

There is a consensus among scientists about global climate change, and it doesn't remotely match Asher's out-gassing here. I do interpret the numbers he quotes as a consensus, considering that so much of this science is based on modeling. He'll just pull those rare papers that match what he wants to hear. Did you read any of the 30+ articles that explicitly support global climate change? How about the 45% that directly and indirectly support the theory of global climate change?

Did Asher even provide a reference for this paper today? He could be totally misreading an article again. Like he's done too many times. This is probably why he didn't go far as a scientist.

And now conservatives are trying to serve up global warming as a hoax.

Let's hope for the sake of mankind that Asher is right, but with his credentials and the conservative movement's results, I'll question what I read here with a grain of salt.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 9:37:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did Asher even provide a reference for this paper today? He could be totally misreading an article again.

RTFA:

Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte recently updated this research. Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. The results have been submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, of which DailyTech has obtained a pre-publication copy.

As to the rest of your post - pure bullshit. Being a global warming skeptic is in no way aligned with any conservative movement. You are trying to create controversy and confusion, instead of talking facts. You are yourself doing what you accuse Michael of. How about jumping into the debate and bring in some data/facts instead of simply casting aspertions.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By Merry on 8/30/2007 11:35:32 AM , Rating: 1
As to the rest of your post - pure bullshit. Being a global warming skeptic is in no way aligned with any conservative movement

But i seem to remember you saying that the Green movement was aligned with the left. I believe you described them as Socialists (Insert negative tone here).

Are you now trying to tell me that you've changed your mind and that politicians views on climate change are in no way aligned with their political opinions?


RE: It's called "Spin"
By Ringold on 8/30/2007 12:45:47 PM , Rating: 2
You're right; communists/Marxists/socialists have largely thrown their lot in with environmentalism because they have powerfully related goals.. namely, the destruction of free enterprise and the current capitalist system for political purposes for some, for extreme environmental reasons for others.

Questioning global warming, however, just indicates a willingness to critically challenge ideas; that could be anyone, liberal, conservative, libertarian, statist, fascist, whatever. As I said in my other post, there is little business interest to motivate conservatives to oppose global warming and thus no such political synergies between conservatives and global warming skeptics.

The OP wasn't contradicting himself, just not painting with your mile-wide brush.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By Merry on 8/30/2007 1:41:06 PM , Rating: 2
You misread me. Personally I believe much the same as you, however time and time again Tomz and yourself use 'mile wide paintbrushes' by painting environmentalists red.

As for related goals between environmentalism and socialism there is certainly an argument to back this up, however, these people are at the very extremes of each respective movement and hold little power and are thus of no consequence. You'll probably find that most socialists are from a poorer economic background and as such extreme environmentalism wouldn't be in their interest as it would keep them poor, or they simply wouldn't care.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 1:53:52 PM , Rating: 2
No, I think Ringold is making a different point, that there is not really any correlation between being a global warming skeptic and being conservative.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 1:42:12 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, and I appreciate your comments. You have the ability to explain it better and in more detail than I can.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By Christopher1 on 9/4/2007 10:31:50 AM , Rating: 2
I have to agree. Communists/Marxists/Socialists have pretty much thrown their lot in with the Global Warming fanatics because their motives are pretty much the same: to 'protect' the Earth from humans and to protect people from themselves.

I realized that there was a problem with global warming theories when no one would give me a straight answer on "How do we know that this isn't a regular, natural temperature change? We have no records dating back more than 150 years, a blink in the eye compared to the history of the Earth!"
No one could answer that question or completely dismissed it as "Conservatism", which I got angry at because I am an extreme libertarian according to some tests I have taken online.

Being skeptical of a theory that tries to say that "We are going towards a date with death from heat!" is not conservatism, it is realism..... we just don't have enough data to make a direct association between 'rising temps' (if there are any) and something called 'global warming'.
That said, I do think that we need to cut down on pollution and make more energy-efficient vehicles.... but only to make the lives of humans better, NOT to protect this planet.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By piotrr on 8/31/2007 8:48:15 AM , Rating: 2
As you can see from the "reference", it makes claims only about the new study and then APPEARS to compare it to the old one. It doesn't really.

The old one is here:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/570...

/ Per


RE: It's called "Spin"
By grenableu on 8/29/2007 9:42:35 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
There is a consensus among scientists about global climate change
Why/ Because you say so? According to this article, there isn't any consensus. That agrees with what I've read from other sources. Most scientists just aren't sure. That's why so much research is still going on.

quote:
Did you read any of the 30+ articles that explicitly support global climate change?
Did you read any of the 30+ articles that deny global climate change is being caused by humans? And did you miss the fact that, even among those 30 papers that support the belief, only ONE of them claims its going to be a serious problem?


RE: It's called "Spin"
By Ringold on 8/29/2007 10:25:43 PM , Rating: 2
I love how you conflate "conservative" with seemingly anything you personally disagree with.

Do you even understand the word? If so, how would you explain a true conservative desiring to invade a foreign country with little just cause? Keep in mind the top imperative of a conservative: limited government.

And the idea that privatized health care would serve all American's well has never been tested, now has it? A modified free health insurance market, such as the one Switzerland has and Mass. recently implemented appears to offer the best balance between social well-being, personal choice, and devastating the pharma sector. (Note where almost all major pharma companies in Europe have retreated to in the face of socialized medicine: Switzerland)

As for global warming being a hoax and conservatives role in advancing that idea.. again, I'd like to know what the principle of limited government and maximum personal responsibility has to do with global warming. It's not money -- businesses have discovered ways to profit no matter what Congress does. Whether or not GW is a fact or not doesn't have any bearing on any of its core principles.

It does, however, play nicely in to the agenda of communism and socialism. Feel free to reveal the 'Vast Right Wing Conspiracy' though if you'd like. Good luck with so many major oil companies supporting carbon trading schemes.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By A5un on 8/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: It's called "Spin"
By robtali0321 on 8/30/2007 10:51:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Conservative spin also brought us those WMD's in Iraq


UGH! I know it is not on the GW topic, but it does relate to the credibility of the "facts" posted by this user, and it a very important topic to me becuase nobody recognizes the FACTS noted below.

First, Do you consider the UN a "conservative" organization? UNMOVIC/UNSCOM found irrefutable evidence of the creation WMD in Iraq, and there were a dozen UN resolutions stating that the burden of proof of their destruction was on Sadaam's government. He ducked and dodged those resolutions and played games with the UN and it's inspectors. The reason for going into Iraq was to enforce those resolutions. Without action, what do those resolutions mean? Why would anyone respect UN decisions/directives if there are no consequences? I wish we weren't there right now, but to say we went into Iraq under false pretenses is to be completely ignorant of the FACTS.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By robtali0321 on 8/30/2007 10:52:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Conservative spin also brought us those WMD's in Iraq


UGH! I know it is not on the GW topic, but it does relate to the credibility of the "facts" posted by this user, and it a very important topic to me becuase nobody recognizes the FACTS noted below.

First, Do you consider the UN a "conservative" organization? UNMOVIC/UNSCOM found irrefutable evidence of the creation WMD in Iraq, and there were a dozen UN resolutions stating that the burden of proof of their destruction was on Sadaam's government. He ducked and dodged those resolutions and played games with the UN and it's inspectors. The reason for going into Iraq was to enforce those resolutions. Without action, what do those resolutions mean? Why would anyone respect UN decisions/directives if there are no consequences? I wish we weren't there right now, but to say we went into Iraq under false pretenses is to be completely ignorant of the FACTS.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By rsmech on 9/2/2007 1:06:01 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
And now conservatives are trying to serve up global warming as a hoax.


You just don't get it. Myself, a conservative, am not anti global warming. I DO believe the climate changes & has ALWAYS changed. I just believe it has and is regardless of man. Man may have a minor impact, very minor. I don't care how many papers show GW, I don't need science to tell me history. What science does is tell me WHY not that it did. Consensus is NOT science. Give me any theory (not hypothesis) or law that is consensus?


RE: It's called "Spin"
By masher2 (blog) on 8/29/2007 9:10:11 PM , Rating: 4
> "Michael Asher continues to do this to supplement his income "

Just to clarify, I don't get paid for these articles.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 8/30/2007 8:15:57 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Michael Asher continues to do this to supplement his income in essence because he could not succeed as a professional scientist.

Although you may not believe me, Michael has some very serious and heavy credentials in his background. In addition, he is completely unpaid for his work at DailyTech.

I certainly do not practice any form of politicking, though if I had to describe myself with a political orientation it would be strictly liberal. I don't see how political affiliation has anything to do with global warming.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By guidryp on 8/30/2007 9:06:19 PM , Rating: 3
I would much rather he(M.Asher if even is real name) was paid by DT than what ever astro-turfing organization is funding him. The only people I have seen approach the issue with this kind of vengeance are paid lobbyists. I encountered one on a political board in Canada. The difference was he was completely open about his organization and his work. Provided his credential and links to their website. He wasn't blogging though. He was posting in the message forums with the same tactics. Drive by studies fresh of the presses, that if you took the time to refute, he would simply pump up the next one. Veracity is not important here simply pumping out the twisted take on the information to sow doubt is. Sad to see DT endorse this behavior by allowing it to go on.

Todays "study" for instance. A: we can't see it. B: it is published in: Energy and Environment. Which is Climate Skeptics Journal, where they can publish anything without scientific scrutiny.
http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/20...

"If the manuscripts of climate-change skeptics are rejected by peer-reviewed science journals, they can always send their studies to Energy & Environment. “It’s only we climate skeptics who have to look for little journals and little publishers like mine to even get published,” explains Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, the journal’s editor."

Now is still "Shocking" as M.Asher writes that a climate skeptic examines the body of work, and publishes in a climate skeptic journal that hey it is not the consensus we were told?


RE: It's called "Spin"
By TomZ on 8/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: It's called "Spin"
By ttowntom on 8/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: It's called "Spin"
By pliny on 8/31/2007 9:30:29 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, it is spin. Here "http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/570..." is the methodology of Oreskes which Schulte claims to be following:
That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change.

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change.

The papers said to be "neutral" are the one's which just weren't about AGW at all (ice ages, gas measuring techniques etc). The score is 45% for, 6% against, 48% off topic.

The statement about only one paper mentioning catastrophic results is just false. Try "climate tipping point" in Google Scholar and you get 9040 hits. Here are just two with tipping point in the title:

"http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-ab..." Journal of Climate Volume 18, Issue 22 (November 2005) "The Thinning of Arctic Sea Ice, 1988–2003: Have We Passed a Tipping Point?"

"http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~mw/docs/sici.pdf" GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 33, L23504, doi:10.1029/2006GL028017, 2006 "Does the Arctic sea ice have a tipping point?"


RE: It's called "Spin"
By onelittleindian on 8/31/2007 10:57:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Here are just two with tipping point in the title
Its obvious you didn't even read the links you posted. Let me quote from one for you:

quote:
Summary: ...the model results are equivocal on the mechanism and magnitude of enhanced climate change [but] are in agreement that it is a process that occurs only after warming (about 13 deg C above modern) and is geographically confined.</ quote>Now, pull that rather large foot out of your mouth, eh? That is about as far from "predicting climate catastrophe" as one can get.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By pliny on 8/31/2007 11:18:30 AM , Rating: 2
The statement was only a single one makes any reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results, and it is disproved by these examples. There are plenty of others.


RE: It's called "Spin"
By onelittleindian on 8/31/2007 11:29:56 AM , Rating: 1
But your examples don't make reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results. The one says that, if the Arctic warms more than 13 degrees (the IPCC is only predicting 2-4 deg. over the next 100 years) that it'll become ice-free year-round. That isn't anything close to predicting a "catastrophe". Its almost exactly the opposite in fact.


Papered Out
By JasonMick (blog) on 8/29/2007 2:00:18 PM , Rating: 4
I think some of what you are seeing has been caused by the fact that the topic has already been beat to death and there are a number of past theoretical papers through the 90s and early 00s about how human effects were contributing to global warming.

Also, if I were writing on a paper about climate change today, I would stay neutral, in that it is much more easy to prove that the world is warming than the fact that humans are causing it. The temperature data is hard to debate, but theories about emissions are easily debateable.

The 6% challenging the "consensus" is not suprising, either. If it is a consensus opinion, but not definitively proven, it makes sense that there would be challenges to it, in fact I would hope there would be or it would indicate a failure on the part of the scientific community.

Why the climate is changing is perhaps one of the most complex questions that can be examined, so I expect you will see many papers "playing it safe" and not proposing or supporting theories as to the cause of the change, either for human responsibility or against it.

Also, another small note temps from 1998-2005 net change remained almost level in most areas, which really means nothing as temperature data is very chaotic and is only easily looked at over multiple decades. Still some people likely were quick to propose, "the world might be cooling" because of a small random trend in temp data. Similarly, I would soon expect a deluge of "the earth is warming" papers, as 2006 was so hot, esp. if 2007 is equally hot or hotter.
I do not agree with either stance, as it is rather illogical to look for patterns chaotic data over a very short timeframe.

Still, it is interesting to know what the scientific community is writing about.




RE: Papered Out
By Keeir on 8/29/2007 2:51:02 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/570...

Actually, if your read Naomi Oreskes paper and conclusions, you might come to different conclusions.

If M. Asher has accurately reported the data in the new study, it would suggest that there are significantly more scientist who reject anthropogenic climate change now in 2004-2007 than in 1993-2004. This is not a logical if scientist have reached a broad consesus.

Further, from 1993-2004, 75% of climate change paper "either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view". Now in 2004-2007, only 48% do? Again, not a logical conclusion of scientists reaching consesus.

More likely than being papered out, in the 1993-2004, only scientists who had a belief or desire to prove anthropogenic warming were publishing climate change papers. Since 2004, more general/other(non-biased) scientists are addressing the issue as it becomes more important and prevelant in daily life.

I think the last line of your is pretty funny
quote:
Still, it is interesting to know what the scientific community is writing about.

Since we (all people) may soon be forced to consumer alot less energy, goods, etc in the name of preventing anthropogenic global warming the fear of which is based primarly on the writing of scientists (albiet re-interpreted by politicians and reporters), I think what scientists are really writing about is of critical importance.


RE: Papered Out
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 3:35:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Since we (all people) may soon be forced to consumer alot less energy, goods, etc in the name of preventing anthropogenic global warming the fear of which is based primarly on the writing of scientists...

That's not going to happen, and you know it. Get real.


RE: Papered Out
By Ringold on 8/29/2007 11:02:04 PM , Rating: 2
You're more optimistic than I am, that's for sure.


RE: Papered Out
By Poptech on 8/31/2007 4:20:54 PM , Rating: 2
RE: “The scientific consensus on climate change” (Benny Peiser)
The letter Science Magazine refused to publish:
http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/Sciencelette...

quote:
The results of my analysis contradict Oreskes' findings and essentially falsify her study: Of all 1117 abstracts, only 13 (1%) explicitly endorse the 'consensus view'. However, 34 abstracts reject or question the view that human activities are the main driving force of "the observed warming over the last 50 years"


RE: Papered Out
By Ringold on 8/29/2007 10:38:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I do not agree with either stance, as it is rather illogical to look for patterns chaotic data over a very short timeframe.


Just as illogical for the world to try to be crafting global schemes to act on this chaotic data, especially when the ramifications are so massive -- particularly for the developing world where huge portions of the worlds population live on less than $2 a day and the only reliable method of raising an area to prosperity is reliable, cheap energy (and free trade, or at least enough to allow export-driven growth). And yet that's precisely what the political class is doing -- drafting policy based on arbitrary assumptions to appease the masses.


RE: Papered Out
By Ringold on 8/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Papered Out
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 1:16:11 PM , Rating: 1
Some sheeple are here on this topic clicking "Not Worth Reading" instead of adding to the discussion. There are a number of posts that are very good that someone downrated. I wouldn't take it personally - I think everyone knows what's going on.


RE: Papered Out
By Procurion on 8/30/2007 11:37:18 AM , Rating: 1
A primer for the un-enlightened such as yourself, Jason. Research scientists are funded by government and special interests. Research scientists make money from the research either by the funding or the patents that result from the discoveries, or they garner notoriety, or both. Basically governments, money, and recognition drive almost all research. It is politically correct(and STRONGLY encouraged) to ring the bell for global warming and that is what governments are funding. Any jackass with a degree that comes up with a new "spin" on global warming gets his name and picture in the press, and more money next year. This is the major reason behind the hue and cry on global warming.
Greenhouse gases have never been documented as a precursor to global warming, only hypothesized. That hypothesis is based on cores drilled into ice which yields the gases present for the era examined. The hounds of warming ignore the "Inconvenient Truth" that they are looking at a STATE, not a precursor. They also conveniently ignore the FACT that when our atmosphere is heated, those greenhouse gases MUST be present as a higher percentage. Dinosaur shit didn't cause global warming then, and I don't remember anyone finding prehistoric cars. The efforts of Masher to present a counterpoint, and defense of Masher by numerous people who have the mental capacity to question are what this site is all about. The site you have shamelessly tried to advertise for is not what most would call a good source for information on any subject. Any subject in science MUST be debated by all parties in an open forum in order for all the facts to be presented-not posted on a website as a rant(here's an idea! Put a link to the webpage arguing that we didn't go to the moon on your site). This site does a damned good job of that by allowing a wide variety of interests that are oriented towards science to be presented here as long as they aren't blatant propaganda.
As a biologist, I CAN tell you that if you're looking for ideas on your advertised site, you should consider the reasons that a huge number of scientists believe is the underlying cause in a lot of warming scenarios. Without all the cliches and other associated garbage, it is a huge decrease in available carbon fixing. Trees...One cubic meter of wood has fixed close to a ton of carbon. The majority of third world countries are de-foresting their countryside at a combined rate of over a BILLION hectares every year-and in the majority of cases, not only are the trees being cut down, they are burned which re-releases the carbon they had fixed IN ADDITON to eliminating their future fixing potential.(http://www.mongabay.com/deforestation_rate.htm) The reason you don't hear anything to speak of regarding this is because the governments of most third world countries want the finger-pointing to be at the US and other large countries. The truth, however, is that the US has a reasonable record when it comes to protecting and requiring trees to be replanted. My county that I live in requires a minimum number of trees per acre whether there were trees there before development or not. The intolerant ones are not the people questioning the dog-and-pony show. The intolerant ones are the people who lash out, insult, ridicule, belittle and sometimes physically attack anyone who doesn't bow their head and praise the intellect and glory of the wonderous gods of environmentalism. The basic train of thought behind Mashers' postings is not that global warming doesn't exist, it's a reasonable questioning of the hoopla and scientific data-or lack of it.


RE: Papered Out
By James Holden on 8/30/2007 12:05:15 PM , Rating: 2
Giant wall of text crits you for 10,000.

Don't be so quick to name people un-enlightened.


RE: Papered Out
By Procurion on 8/30/2007 1:05:41 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry...forgetting to put a break at the paragraphs makes everything I wrote useless. Criticize the content in a supportive or contrary way, but criticizing the presentation is tacit agreement that you can't find flaws within said content. I bear no real grudge with Jason but his view is narrow in my opinion. I enjoy the various views expressed by many posters, but think it is rather crass of you to belittle other bloggers on this site.


RE: Papered Out
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 1:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
I agree - while the post is a bit hard to read, you make a number of very valid points.


RE: Papered Out
By wlw on 8/30/2007 5:23:36 PM , Rating: 2
It seems odd to refer to others as unenlightened when part of your criticism is that it is crass to belittle others bloggers. Not trying to attack you, just pointing out your argument might be better received if there was not an appearance of belittlement in your own post. I don't think you intended that but terms like unenlightened, uninformed, etc. can be taken as insulting if the person you are addressing is relatively well informed and intelligent.


RE: Papered Out
By Procurion on 8/30/2007 6:19:31 PM , Rating: 2
Touche, and point taken. It was a remark made that required personal knowledge of my experiences in the past with research grants and such. You are right, it did read as a contradiction to what I posted. I tried to remedy that by making the point that I don't have a grudge with Jason. I do, however, fail to see the point in posting comments criticizing punctuation that follow up with admonishments based on nothing. Therefore the post which said as much. Posts made without information in them are just that.


RE: Papered Out
By Procurion on 8/30/2007 1:08:11 PM , Rating: 2
The link picked up the parentheses. This is the good link, although the material can still be found with the bad one. http://www.mongabay.com/deforestation_rate.htm


RE: Papered Out
By gsellis on 8/30/2007 2:36:36 PM , Rating: 3
I am no longer convinced that the earth is warming. I used to believe it was, but the cause was solar. Now, since the two modelers that say it is warming refuse to release their model code and data sets, it becomes more and more suspicious. The recent correction to the NASA models that Roger Pielke Sr. discovered had to come from a reverse analysis of raw data and the results to show that the black box was not working correctly. That model is still a black box. Science is about taking the same materials and producing the same results over and over. Since they refuse to disclose the methods of the model, it makes me, and others, wonder what they are hiding.


Our capability
By A5un on 8/29/2007 2:19:45 PM , Rating: 5
Some of my professors at my school have said on numerous occasions that if you want to win a Nobel Prize, find a way to model turbulent flows exactly. If that's true, this means that researchers have yet found a way to do so. Well, without this capability, how exactly are we modeling the warming trend (if there is one)? You can do all the curve fitting you want, but human activities ain't gonna follow no mathmatical formula (I think...).

Further, from my studies in heat transfer, various turbulent correlations leading to quantities of heat transferred often times have an error as large as 20%, and sometimes even bigger.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but how can an overly simplified model produce accurate result? The model may be capable of differentiating temperatures by half a degree or less, but that does not guarantee accuracy. It just means that the model can produce "precise" results, and nothing more.

Obviously, I'm no scientist. But, I can't help but question all the researches, whether supporting global warming or dismissing it. I say it's just too early to tell. But by the time we are able to tell, it may be too late. So what do you do?




RE: Our capability
By Keeir on 8/29/2007 3:02:45 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
But, I can't help but question all the researches, whether supporting global warming or dismissing it. I say it's just too early to tell. But by the time we are able to tell, it may be too late. So what do you do?


Something that bothers me is that the cost of "fixing" the problem of CO2 will be extreme and in the process humans may further unbalance the climate or release even worse pollutants. For example, I like the newer diesal cars. They generally produce less CO2 per mile than gas cars. But if we had been driving diesal cars for the past 10 years (reducing CO2) we would have been releasing a significantly greater amount of particale pollution. Which has a definate and immediate effect on air quality of human health.

What do "I" do? I examine the actual risks and best probablities of the time and determine whether is better to cut CO2 or provide clean drinking water for every individual in the world (or any other project that will directly benifit humans). I don't do -anything- in the hopes that something will potentially avoid a potential climate change that will potentially be harmful for humans or the long term health of the planet.


RE: Our capability
By porkpie on 8/29/2007 3:09:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
But if we had been driving diesal cars for the past 10 years (reducing CO2) we would have been releasing a significantly greater amount of particale pollution
Bingo. That's why lying to people about "global warming" in the hopes it'll help us get a cleaner enviromment is a bad idea. It's not just diesels, but all engines. You can tune for maximum efficiency (lowest CO2) or lowest emissions (NOx, particulates, etc). But you can't do both at once.


RE: Our capability
By A5un on 8/29/2007 4:08:31 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, I think max efficient may mean max CO2, as combustion results in CO2 and H2O as its primary products. I may be wrong, but I think this is correct...

As for emission, nearly all emission control is done by the catalytic convertor, or a ceramic filter or some sort in a diesel. As for NOx, that's a result of the high exhaust temperature that allows air's oxygen and nitrogen for recombination. So in maximum efficiency, all of the air is processed, leaving no oxygen for recombination with nitrogen, therefore less NOx. So I guess you do get them both at the same time?


RE: Our capability
By porkpie on 8/29/2007 6:29:10 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Actually, I think max efficient may mean max CO2
Max efficiency means minimum fuel use per mile, which means minimum CO2. When you're designing and tuning and engine, usually efficiency and emissions are in a tradeoff scenario, which means less co2 = more pollution and vice versa.


RE: Our capability
By chessmaster42 on 8/30/2007 12:13:06 AM , Rating: 3
Actually both of you are right in a way. The hotter the gases taking part in combustion, the more efficient engine is. However, the actual combustion is less efficient at higher temperatures leading to more NOx CO and other less energy robbing and polluting products. So there is a balancing act between the two.


RE: Our capability
By onelittleindian on 8/29/2007 3:14:22 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Something that bothers me is that the cost of "fixing" the problem of CO2 will be extreme and in the process humans may further unbalance the climate
I've seen a couple stories now that greenhouse gas emissions are the only thing keeping us from having another Ice Age right about now. We normally have them every 10,000 years, and its been 12,000 since the last one hit.


RE: Our capability
By TheGreek on 8/29/2007 3:56:15 PM , Rating: 3
I saw a story of Bush shaking hands with an alien.

Note - I didn't say illegal alien.


RE: Our capability
By beezdotcom on 8/29/2007 4:04:29 PM , Rating: 1
By legal alien, I trust you mean "legal immigrant from Earth". Because I don't think any of the greys from Zeta Reticuli have valid green cards.


RE: Our capability
By A5un on 8/29/2007 3:59:17 PM , Rating: 2
All I was saying was just that I honestly (and I think we all) don't know whether CO2 does cause "global warming," because what we've seen thus far are just empirical models.

As for diesel's particulate emission, well, gasoline engines also produces particulate emission, that's nothing new. But "new" technology is capable of cutting down diesel particulate emission by as much as 80%. You may argue that such "technology" wasn't available back then, but I think that's largely due to the fact that diesel was not a popular fuel for average consumer back then. Perhaps the amount of research going into diesel back then was scarce?

And even what I said may be incorrect, as both of us have failed to include the emission from both processing these fuels and construction of processing facilities to process these fuels. Until then, it's difficult to say which is cleaner.

Plan for the worse and hope for the best?


RE: Our capability
By TomZ on 8/29/2007 6:22:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All I was saying was just that I honestly (and I think we all) don't know whether CO2 does cause "global warming," because what we've seen thus far are just empirical models.

That's right, and it's going to be a tough thing to prove, since historical data shows that temperature moves first, followed by CO2. I'm not sure how you prove causality when the "effect" leads the "cause."
quote:
Plan for the worse and hope for the best?

How about this: study first, then plan, then implement. The current agenda put forward by Gore and his followers is implement first, and study later. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Gore's plan has a high probability of wasting time, effort, money, and resources for nothing.


RE: Our capability
By 16nm on 8/29/2007 8:26:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some of my professors at my school have said on numerous occasions that if you want to win a Nobel Prize, find a way to model turbulent flows exactly. If that's true, this means that researchers have yet found a way to do so. Well, without this capability, how exactly are we modeling the warming trend (if there is one)? You can do all the curve fitting you want, but human activities ain't gonna follow no mathmatical formula (I think...).

Further, from my studies in heat transfer, various turbulent correlations leading to quantities of heat transferred often times have an error as large as 20%, and sometimes even bigger.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but how can an overly simplified model produce accurate result? The model may be capable of differentiating temperatures by half a degree or less, but that does not guarantee accuracy. It just means that the model can produce "precise" results, and nothing more.


Scientists are on the fence because they can not be sure of what is causing global warming.

quote:
Obviously, I'm no scientist. But, I can't help but question all the researches, whether supporting global warming or dismissing it. I say it's just too early to tell. But by the time we are able to tell, it may be too late. So what do you do?


Research! This is what scientists are doing day in and day out. They try to find answers.